Weis: Fizban/Zifnab - Who is this Guy?
John J. Palmer
ahead) that he "Zif-nab" (made me chuckle)
said he witnessed the Sundering, that Samah sent the Council Guards to
bring him to participate because he was known and powerful, that he had
written the books in the Nexus, etc.
Now then, In DragonLance, Dragons of Spring Dawning, Fizban is revealed as
Palidin the Dragon Knight? (god?/demigod?) and is quite lucid at the end,
as opposed to the Fizban persona thru the trilogy.
Okay here is this guy who has the same frumpy hat, makes the same
anachronistic remarks and trades abuse with his dragon. Obviously the same
being.
okay, Questions:
1. Do any of you more well versed fans of Weis&Hickman understand how these
two universes relate?
2. Do you understand who or what Zifnab/Fizban really is? (the Good God?)
3. How does that Dragon fit in? (Is the Dragon actually the superior being
of the two?)
4. Is it the same Dragon?
And another thing,
Is Haplo's dog a real dog, entrusted-with, or is it a magical manifestation
of Haplo's soul? Certain charactors, Alfred, Xar, Zifnab, seem to
understand (the dog) but I havent quite figured it out. I guess I need to
reread the series.
Side light, Zifnabs anachronisms just crack me up, especially the James
Bond stuff.
John J. Palmer - MDA-SSD M&P pal...@ssdgwy.mdc.com
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men* are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Home Brewing, Women**, and the Pursuit of Science."
* intended at this time to be nonspecific; ** personal preference.
Arturo Viso Magidin
John J. Palmer <pal...@ssdgwy.mdc.com> wrote:
>I just finished *Into the Labyrithe* over the weekend and marveled (spoiler
>ahead) that he "Zif-nab" (made me chuckle)
>said he witnessed the Sundering, that Samah sent the Council Guards to
>bring him to participate because he was known and powerful, that he had
>written the books in the Nexus, etc.
>
>Now then, In DragonLance, Dragons of Spring Dawning, Fizban is revealed as
>Palidin the Dragon Knight? (god?/demigod?) and is quite lucid at the end,
>as opposed to the Fizban persona thru the trilogy.
>
>Okay here is this guy who has the same frumpy hat, makes the same
>anachronistic remarks and trades abuse with his dragon. Obviously the same
>being.
>okay, Questions:
>
>1. Do any of you more well versed fans of Weis&Hickman understand how these
>two universes relate?
Not sure they have to relate. If Zifnab is indeed Fizban, what prevents
him from being a God(tm) of two different universes?
>2. Do you understand who or what Zifnab/Fizban really is? (the Good God?)
Quite sure he is a God(tm). What God? Whose God? I don't know. Guess
I'll have to wait until I read "Into the ..." and the rest of the
series to find out (if at all).
>3. How does that Dragon fit in? (Is the Dragon actually the superior being
>of the two?)
I don't think the Dragon is actually the superior being. Fizban enjoyed
appearing like a bumbler and playing subservient. Maybe so does
Zifnab.
>4. Is it the same Dragon?
>
Same as what Dragon?
>And another thing,
>Is Haplo's dog a real dog, entrusted-with, or is it a magical manifestation
>of Haplo's soul? Certain charactors, Alfred, Xar, Zifnab, seem to
>understand (the dog) but I havent quite figured it out. I guess I need to
>reread the series.
>
I'm pretty sure it is Haplo's soul. In "The Hand of Chaos" Haplo is
told (don't remember by whom, though) that he has a sould, but
the soul is not with him at the moment. The dog had left him at
the time.
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
mag...@uclink.berkeley.edu
mag...@math.berkeley.edu
Amy Rebecca Ewing
first book...it was intense and serious, with what I thought were
good characters and set pieces. Then the second book and Mr. Zifnab.
Eek. Here's why I don't like him/it/whatever-Zifnab-is. First, I
think it's a goofy, doddering character who is totally out of place
with everything else. Ok, you could argue you need some comic relief,
but I think it's way overboard. Second and more importantly, bringing
him from the DragonLance realm--to me--cheapens the Deathgate realm.
Isn't the latter realm cohesive enough to do without a deus ex machina
type of character such as him? And who can really tie the two realms
together? Are we meant to? Or is his appearance strictly artistic
whim? (seeing as he appears in more than one book, I would say not).
Third and most annoyingly, his continual references to 20th century
culture jar me back to reality and remind me I'm only reading a book,
rather than let me be immersed in the story.
I did read the 3rd book, and enjoyed it somewhat since again it took
on a more serious approach, but hearing that Zifnab returns later on
I doubt I will read any further.
--
Brian
barm...@wam.umd.edu
Denby Liu
AR>on a more serious approach, but hearing that Zifnab returns later on
AR>I doubt I will read any further.
Keep going! Serpent Mage was EXCELLENT, even though they had this
horrible knack of making EVERY single chapter a cliff-hanger. I'm dying
to read the next book, but it's still on loan at the library, sniff,
sniff. You'd be making a rather bad mistake IMO to forget the entire
series over just one, admittedly annoying, character. Just ignore
Zifnab's appearances if you really don't like him that much. Mind you,
I'd be interested in how Weiss & Hickman resolve Zifnab's character.
Denby.
--
Internet : denb...@almac.co.uk
Lemming's Credo - Last one down is still alive
---
. Orator V1.21 . [Windows Qwk Reader Unregistered Evaluation Copy]
Brother Tyrus
>I just finished *Into the Labyrithe* over the weekend and marveled (spoiler
>ahead) that he "Zif-nab" (made me chuckle)
>said he witnessed the Sundering, that Samah sent the Council Guards to
>bring him to participate because he was known and powerful, that he had
>written the books in the Nexus, etc.
>
>Now then, In DragonLance, Dragons of Spring Dawning, Fizban is revealed as
>Palidin the Dragon Knight? (god?/demigod?) and is quite lucid at the end,
>as opposed to the Fizban persona thru the trilogy.
>
>Okay here is this guy who has the same frumpy hat, makes the same
>anachronistic remarks and trades abuse with his dragon. Obviously the same
>being.
>okay, Questions:
>
>1. Do any of you more well versed fans of Weis&Hickman understand how these
>two universes relate?
Well, IMHO, in Weis and Hickman's fiction, there are a number of
gods which reside over all the multi-verse, beingthe same gods
under different names for all planes of existance and realitiesthe
universe can hold. Thus the god Paladine in Dragonlance may will
have a completely different name in another plane, or may not even
be recognised at all. However he enjoys usingthe Fizban/Zifnab
persona so much that he uses it in multiple
universes/worlds/realities howeveryou wantto define it. This also
explains why Paladine/Fizban has knowledge of things from other
planets/time periods such as the reference to Fire Hydrants and
Napalm in the Dargonlance trilogy and the James Bond references in
other books.
Just MHO, but it explains it for me.
Ciao!
--
'I stood at the gates of Eternity, looking forward. Fear gripped my heart, I
turned away, and ran. Can you see beyond the horror of the void? Tell me
what's out there, lest the terror drive me insane...'
- Brother Tyrus Hellbane
Hate mail to : nat...@scorch.apana.org.au
Nathan....@f400.n622.z3.fidonet.org
ty...@dragon.hna.com.au <-- Fastest Reply
Mutant for Hire
>I just finished *Into the Labyrithe* over the weekend and marveled (spoiler
>ahead) that he "Zif-nab" (made me chuckle)
>said he witnessed the Sundering, that Samah sent the Council Guards to
>bring him to participate because he was known and powerful, that he had
>written the books in the Nexus, etc.
Indeed. I get the feeling that he was an extremely powerful Sartan who
has somehow managed to survive all these centuries. Watching Earth get
destroyed with all of the mensch races getting annihilated on it drove
him over the edge. He's no more Fizban than he's James Bond, but by
using these multiple personas he no longer has to be himself, a magician
who saw one of the greatest slaughters around.
>1. Do any of you more well versed fans of Weis&Hickman understand how these
>two universes relate?
He's read the Dragonlance books on Earth before they were destroyed in
the Sundering.
>2. Do you understand who or what Zifnab/Fizban really is? (the Good God?)
A very powerful Sartan who was chosen by the Good Dragon for some reason.
>3. How does that Dragon fit in? (Is the Dragon actually the superior being
>of the two?)
Quite conceivably, though I think the Dragon is dependent in some way on
Zinfab.
>Is Haplo's dog a real dog, entrusted-with, or is it a magical manifestation
>of Haplo's soul? Certain charactors, Alfred, Xar, Zifnab, seem to
>understand (the dog) but I havent quite figured it out. I guess I need to
>reread the series.
Haplo's soul is in the dog, that's all I can tell.
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
mfte...@phoenix.princeton.edu mfte...@pucc.bitnet anonym...@charcoal.com
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Raistlan
AR>I did read the 3rd book, and enjoyed it somewhat since again it took
AR>on a more serious approach, but hearing that Zifnab returns later on
AR>I doubt I will read any further.
Keep going! Serpent Mage was EXCELLENT, even though they had this
horrible knack of making EVERY single chapter a cliff-hanger. I'm dying
to read the next book, but it's still on loan at the library, sniff,
sniff. You'd be making a rather bad mistake IMO to forget the entire
series over just one, admittedly annoying, character.
Annoying?! This thread amazed me when I first saw it because IMHO, Zifnab
is what gives this series some life. When I read _Elven Star_, and I first
came across him, I thought it was a stroke of genius. The story was getting
VERY grim and it needed something to lighten it up. Also, in the original
post, there was complaining about Zifnab bringing up the twentieth century.
If you find that that makes it harder to get 'into' the book, just remember
that the story hints at being an actual "future", just read the descriptions
of the Sartans and Patryns. I'm reading Dragonlance Chronicles again, and I
find the highlights either feature Raistlin or Fizban. He is entertaining.
I admire authors who can laugh at themselves.
Just ignore
Zifnab's appearances if you really don't like him that much. Mind you,
I'd be interested in how Weiss & Hickman resolve Zifnab's character.
I won't say much, except that he isn't THAT minor of a charactor, for better
or worse, he's tied in the story-line. (How, I don't know yet.) I don't
know, maybe all I can recommend is to lighten up. If you can't then you'll
probably have miss out on one of the best fantasy series in a long time.
--
sig {
handle { Raistlan }
name { Jeremy D. Morton }
address { jmo...@onyx.idbsu.edu }
rush_quote { "Sadder still to watch it die then never to have known it" }
tagline { Witty tag here. }
}
Bitty
This whole thread reminds me of why I started avoiding W&H in the first
place. In EVERY SERIES they HAVE to take a perfectly good idea and throw in
an annoying character.
In Dragonlance, Tas and Fizban kind of combine. However, it was the
first time, and it wasn't as bad.
So what did they do then, decided to continue the same recipe?
The original concept of the Darksword trilogy was enthralling to me.
But then they inroduced Simkin. Forget it from there.
Rose of the Prophet I vaguely remember sleeping through; I couldn't
tell ya' if tehre was an annpoying character or not because I can't even
remember the plot.
Weis' solo stuff - besides being a cheap rendition of every good scifi
concept (star wars anyone?) and an obvious ripoff, she adds az... or whatever
that minddude's name was. They INSIST on adding a single character that then
destroys the series, and i firmly believe that Zifnab is it in this one.
The first two books sucked. Third and fourth were great. I will never read
the fifth one again. Now, hearing that he appears in the next book, I doubt
I'll even bother to touch it.
Fizban, Simkin, Zifnab... the same fucking "comic relief" that just
takes away from the style of the story. When Simkin starts quoting "Romeo and
Juliet" to Saryon, it's an utter disaster to me, the reader. I don't CARE
if Simkin is supposed to be funny.
My $.03,
Kalaria
"...And dance, like it's the last night of the world"
--
Bethany Ramirez "Bitty" | "Open up your mind Let your fantasies unwind"
"I wonder what the gestation period is on a bottle of Clearly Canadian?"- Colin
"Knowing is half the battle. The other half is the penis." - Cheezit-Matt
"Are you here to arrange a trip, or would you just like a blowjob?" - M. P.
Noel C Jinks
> series over just one, admittedly annoying, character.
>Annoying?! This thread amazed me when I first saw it because IMHO, Zifnab
>is what gives this series some life. When I read _Elven Star_, and I first
>came across him, I thought it was a stroke of genius. The story was getting
>VERY grim and it needed something to lighten it up. Also, in the original
>post, there was complaining about Zifnab bringing up the twentieth century.
>If you find that that makes it harder to get 'into' the book, just remember
>that the story hints at being an actual "future", just read the descriptions
>of the Sartans and Patryns. I'm reading Dragonlance Chronicles again, and I
>find the highlights either feature Raistlin or Fizban. He is entertaining.
>I admire authors who can laugh at themselves.
I totally agree with you. In the Dragonlance series Fizban asks Raistlin does
he have any bat guanno (spell component for a fireball spell) on hand and when
told no he responds -"I'll just have to wing it." Made me quitetly chuckle.
Damn good humor these two authors have !
While I'm on the subject of Dragonlance; does anyone know exactly what
the Weis / Hickman book - Dragonlance: The Second Generation is? I have
two different listing: One says its a novel by them the other says its
a colection of short stories by them.
Raistlan
} This whole thread reminds me of why I started avoiding W&H in the first
} place. In EVERY SERIES they HAVE to take a perfectly good idea and throw in
} an annoying character.
}
} In Dragonlance, Tas and Fizban kind of combine. However, it was the
} first time, and it wasn't as bad.
I would like to point out that W&H write to entertain. And you have to
keep in mind that Chronicles was based on actual role-playing. The
"annoying" character came from what happens when people get together for
r/p. The puns and quotes from our culture that are funny because they fit.
Fizban is a big question mark (in all incarnations0, maybe that's what you
don't like: someone who is obviously important but you don't know anything
about, and that everytime they speak you just have more questions. Maybe
not. But I find I enjoy the books Much more with these mysterious,
*entertaining* characters.
} So what did they do then, decided to continue the same recipe?
Works for me...
} The original concept of the Darksword trilogy was enthralling to me.
} But then they inroduced Simkin. Forget it from there.
The only thing that kept me reading was Simkin. I found the rest of it
extremely dull.
} They INSIST on adding a single character that then
} destroys the series, and i firmly believe that Zifnab is it in this one.
Again, they write to entertain, us and themselves. They write because of
how much they enjoy fantasy and fantasy r/p. Like I said in an earlier
message, I like that they can laugh at themselves.
} The first two books sucked. Third and fourth were great. I will never read
} the fifth one again. Now, hearing that he appears in the next book, I doubt
} I'll even bother to touch it.
Well, I thought the first book was great, and that they only got better.
I guess I was wrong... ;) But >I'm< looking forward to _Into the Labyrinth_.
} Fizban, Simkin, Zifnab... the same fucking "comic relief" that just
} takes away from the style of the story. When Simkin starts quoting "Romeo and
} Juliet" to Saryon, it's an utter disaster to me, the reader. I don't CARE
} if Simkin is supposed to be funny.
Well, I can't say you're wrong; you obviously don't like that kind of
"comic relief." I'm glad you've pointed this out so that all those others
out there who don't share my 'bizzarre' sense of humor don't bother with
this series... I don't think good ol' Webster's has any annoying characters,
though...
} --
} Bethany Ramirez "Bitty" | "Open up your mind Let your fantasies unwind"
'Bitter'?
NIGHT
>bkra...@unix.amherst.edu (Bitty) writes:
>
>} This whole thread reminds me of why I started avoiding W&H in the first
>} place. In EVERY SERIES they HAVE to take a perfectly good idea and throw in
>} an annoying character.
>}
>} In Dragonlance, Tas and Fizban kind of combine. However, it was the
>} first time, and it wasn't as bad.
Having played a lot of D&D, I found Tas hilarious, because there is almost
always someone who is like that. I liked Fizban too.
>
>I would like to point out that W&H write to entertain. And you have to
>keep in mind that Chronicles was based on actual role-playing. The
>"annoying" character came from what happens when people get together for
>r/p. The puns and quotes from our culture that are funny because they fit.
>Fizban is a big question mark (in all incarnations0, maybe that's what you
>don't like: someone who is obviously important but you don't know anything
>about, and that everytime they speak you just have more questions. Maybe
>not. But I find I enjoy the books Much more with these mysterious,
>*entertaining* characters.
I agree, I like the mystery presented by the odd character.
>} The original concept of the Darksword trilogy was enthralling to me.
>} But then they inroduced Simkin. Forget it from there.
>
>The only thing that kept me reading was Simkin. I found the rest of it
>extremely dull.
I hated him at first, but he kind of grows on you. It was an OK series, but it
would have been worse without Simkin.
I can't remember enough about The Rose of the Prophet set to really comment.
The only thing I found interesting enough to remember was the interaction of
all the god's subordinates...genies and angels were an interesting combo.
>} The first two books sucked. Third and fourth were great. I will never read
>} the fifth one again. Now, hearing that he appears in the next book, I doubt
>} I'll even bother to touch it.
I thought the first two were pretty good considering that the series was going
to be seven books. I expected a fair amount of intro material and things that
would be explained later. I hated the third book, but the fourth one is the
best in my opinion.
--
*******************************************************************************
Control crime, not guns.* Guns don't cause death* Allen Beard
************************* any more than matches * University of Tennessee
NRA * cause arson. * Knoxville, TN USA
And I vote. * * email:RAB...@UTKVX.UTK.EDU
*******************************************************************************
Denby Liu
Yup, love their humour. The best had to be in the Time of the Twins when
Caramon comes bck to the Gladiators cell unable to speak and in agony...
Tas:What did they do to you? Did they torture you?
Caramon:Ca...Cal...Cali...
Tas:I've never heard of a torture called Cali-something.
Caramon:...Calisthenics.
Tas:(Throws something at him in disgust!)
NC>While I'm on the subject of Dragonlance; does anyone know exactly
NC>what the Weis / Hickman book - Dragonlance: The Second Generation
NC>is? I have two different listing: One says its a novel by them the
NC>other says its a colection of short stories by them.
I think it's a continuation of the story of Caramon's sons, haven't a clue
whether it's one long novel or several shorts.
From the opinions on the net, it seems like you either like their humour
or you don't. But I have to say that their Deathgate Cycle series so far
is definitely the best they've done so far. I hope the ending for this
series is much better than the Darksword or Rose of the Prophet trilogies.
I don't know why but I just didn't like the endings to these two.
Darren Steffler
>I think it's a continuation of the story of Caramon's sons, haven't a clue
>whether it's one long novel or several shorts.
>From the opinions on the net, it seems like you either like their humour
>or you don't. But I have to say that their Deathgate Cycle series so far
>is definitely the best they've done so far. I hope the ending for this
>series is much better than the Darksword or Rose of the Prophet trilogies.
>I don't know why but I just didn't like the endings to these two.
Too True! The Darksword series was nothing but gloom and doom, and the only
thing the hero(Hm. Debateable) ended was the doom part. It was still pretty
gloomy at the end of that novel and that could be the reason why you and I
didn't get much out of the ending of the Darksword series.
The Rose of the Prophet was a little better, but not by too much. The main
(husband, wife and (laugh) other "wife") mortal characters saved the desert
tribes from the God that was threatening them all but then the tribes went
back(almost) to exactly the same sort of behavior that almost led to their
destruction before. Nothing new. Also, the funny Dyjin(sp?), Punjib or
something(I can't recall), got a reward for his heroism by being eternally
trapped within an iron mountian with an extremely powerful and angry
arch-demon who is REALLY pissed at him. That was another downer for me.
I hope they don't do the same sort of thing in their Deathgate cycle series.
I dearly hope so, for the ending of a series or single book usually either
increases the popularity if a book by 50-200% or decreases it by the same
amount :)
>Denby.
>--
>Internet : denb...@almac.co.uk
>Lemming's Credo - Last one down is still alive
>---
>. Orator V1.21 . [Windows Qwk Reader Unregistered Evaluation Copy]
==============================================================================
Darren Steffler - mail at <umst...@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
==============================================================================
--
==============================================================================
Darren Steffler - mail at <umst...@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
==============================================================================
Denby Liu
DS>the only thing the hero(Hm. Debateable) ended was the doom part. It
DS>was still pretty gloomy at the end of that novel and that could be
DS>the reason why you and I didn't get much out of the ending of the
DS>Darksword series.
I think another reason I didn't like the ending was that they left a
hanging plot thread. There was still the Darksword weilder's (can't
remember his name) enemy in the outside that was never dealt with.
DS>The Rose of the Prophet was a little better, but not by too much.
DS>The main (husband, wife and (laugh) other "wife") mortal characters
DS>saved the desert tribes from the God that was threatening them all
DS>but then the tribes went back(almost) to exactly the same sort of
DS>behavior that almost led to their destruction before. Nothing new.
DS>Also, the funny Dyjin(sp?), Punjib or something(I can't recall), got
DS>a reward for his heroism by being eternally trapped within an iron
DS>mountian with an extremely powerful and angry arch-demon who is
DS>REALLY pissed at him. That was another downer for me.
Yeah, I really liked that character as he reminded me so much like Tas in a
warped kind of way. I did like this series overall though, the mixing of
the different religious entities was a real strange but nice touch.
Is it me or are all the main male characters in their series the same.
Tanis -> Darksword Weilder -> The hushand in ROTP -> Haplo are all moody
characters. The Darksword and Haplo are especially similar.
smot...@gmail.com
Jaimie Vandenbergh
>On Monday, January 17, 1994 11:27:15 PM UTC-6, John J. Palmer wrote:
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"It's people like that who make you realize how little you've accomplished.
It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age, he had
been dead for two years" - Tom Lehrer
Kevrob
> On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 07:24:14 -0800 (PST), smot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Monday, January 17, 1994 11:27:15 PM UTC-6, John J. Palmer wrote:
>
> Well, that date spread might win some sort of prize.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_in_Star_Trek#Fizzbin
Kevin R