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(tears but also OT) The Population Bomb by Paul R. Ehrlich
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James Nicoll
Mar 19, 2023, 8:20:48 AM3/19/23
to
The Population Bomb by Paul R. Ehrlich
"Babies, Mr. Rico! Zillions of them!"
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
authors.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
"Babies, Mr. Rico! Zillions of them!"
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
authors.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Don
Mar 19, 2023, 11:42:23 AM3/19/23
to
James Nicoll wrote:
> The Population Bomb by Paul R. Ehrlich
>
> "Babies, Mr. Rico! Zillions of them!"
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
>
> Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
> authors.
Three story lines with a population bomb narrative element come to mind.
> The Population Bomb by Paul R. Ehrlich
>
> "Babies, Mr. Rico! Zillions of them!"
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
>
> Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
> authors.
_The Lathe of Heaven_ (LeGuin) is arguably well known among Anglophonic
aficionados of SF.
A pop-bomb literary ingredient turns up twice (thus far) in PR. The
exponential growth of the Blues, colloquially called Plate-Heads:
<https://www.perrypedia.de/mediawiki/images/2/2d/PR0166.jpg>
strips entire planets of all living matter in order to feed the beast.
Another alien life form, known as Methans, debuts earlier in 70
"The Last Days of Atlantis." The Master of the Island Zyklus plausibly
retcons Methans into pop-bombers and gives them a cover treatment:
<https://www.perrypedia.de/mediawiki/images/7/7f/PR0228.jpg>
Danke,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Quadibloc
Mar 19, 2023, 11:55:06 AM3/19/23
to
"I don’t think it ever occurred to him to determine if in fact Catholics
follow papal decrees that they find personally inconvenient."
1) We know that people who believe in a religion follow its teachings
with zombie-like faithfulness; look at 9/11!
2) Actually, while he may have realized the truth of this with respect
to American Roman Catholics, presumably he had seen statistics
indicating that the populations of Latin American countries, which are
largely Roman Catholic, were growing.
Now, then: why does Paul R. Ehrlich continue to have fans, now that
Norman Borlaug has proved him wrong?
Well, even Norman Borlaug himself has admitted that, in the ultimate
sense, as opposed to with respect to his short term predictions, he did
no such thing. As Isaac Asimov was fond of explaining, you *cannot*
have exponential growth forever on a finite planet, and so tweaking the
parameters a little, so that disaster happens in 10,000 AD instead of
in 1970 AD still ends up in the same place - disaster happens.
Of course, in the former case, there is enough lead time that we might
actually see things coming and change our ways. But that doesn't
change the conclusion that we must CHANGE OUR WAYS to avoid
disaster, does it?
And as Garret Hardin would tell you, the fact that a lot of countries
have undergone a demographic transition doesn't really buy you
anything - if only tiny Burkina Faso is the only place on Earth where the
population grows at a rate of 0.1% per annum, and it's shrinking like in
Greece and Japan everywhere else... that just means that
1) Burkina Faso overruns the Earth, and then
2) Disaster happens!
I suppose one could say that it would serve _them_ right. But our
descendants, however few in number, would still be there for the
disaster too!
That the obvious cogency of Isaac Asimov's arguments explains the
enduring popularity of The Population Bomb despite its apparent
failure as a predictive tool... is one thing.
However, my main *critique* of James Nicoll's essay lies with another
sentence in it, part of which was: "Ehrlich expected Baby Boomers to
have as many kids each as their parents had."
What could be wrong with this sentence? Surely he is describing an
actual mistake made by Paul Ehrlich!
To the extent that Baby Boomers were having fewer children than their
parents because women's liberation meant that women were less
likely to relish taking care of a family with ten children, and that sort of
thing - yes, it's a valid critique.
*But* if fewer males were getting married because of the economic
reverses that happened after Gerald Ford started handing out those
Whip Inflation Now buttons, and then the 1973 oil embargo prevented
an economic recovery from ill-advised interest rate increases...
then it's an "invalid" criticism, at least in my opinion, because the
price of limiting population growth by this means is essentially too
high to be tolerated, and will lead to social instability, up to and
including the collapse of civilization! (From my vat-girl oeuvre,
it should have been obvious I was going here.)
One could also criticize the remark "this was clearly written before
the EPA was created", in the same sentence, on similar grounds.
That remark only makes sense, in the sense in which it was
intended, if, once you create an Environmental Protection
Agency, it will from that moment on exist forever and ever, always
protecting the environment with the same zeal, without letup.
With no possibility of a Ronald Reagan or a Donald Trump ever
diminishing its powers.
If unchecked population growth leads to mass starvation in the
United States, and repealing a few environmental regulations would allow
more food to be produced...
we can say bye-bye EPA. Hence, massive unchecked population growth
*does* lead to inevitable environmental degradation, even _after_
the world has witnessed the creation of the EPA.
So basically I fault James Nicoll for his excessive optimism, which
verges into a Polyanna-ish view of the world.
John Savard
follow papal decrees that they find personally inconvenient."
1) We know that people who believe in a religion follow its teachings
with zombie-like faithfulness; look at 9/11!
2) Actually, while he may have realized the truth of this with respect
to American Roman Catholics, presumably he had seen statistics
indicating that the populations of Latin American countries, which are
largely Roman Catholic, were growing.
Now, then: why does Paul R. Ehrlich continue to have fans, now that
Norman Borlaug has proved him wrong?
Well, even Norman Borlaug himself has admitted that, in the ultimate
sense, as opposed to with respect to his short term predictions, he did
no such thing. As Isaac Asimov was fond of explaining, you *cannot*
have exponential growth forever on a finite planet, and so tweaking the
parameters a little, so that disaster happens in 10,000 AD instead of
in 1970 AD still ends up in the same place - disaster happens.
Of course, in the former case, there is enough lead time that we might
actually see things coming and change our ways. But that doesn't
change the conclusion that we must CHANGE OUR WAYS to avoid
disaster, does it?
And as Garret Hardin would tell you, the fact that a lot of countries
have undergone a demographic transition doesn't really buy you
anything - if only tiny Burkina Faso is the only place on Earth where the
population grows at a rate of 0.1% per annum, and it's shrinking like in
Greece and Japan everywhere else... that just means that
1) Burkina Faso overruns the Earth, and then
2) Disaster happens!
I suppose one could say that it would serve _them_ right. But our
descendants, however few in number, would still be there for the
disaster too!
That the obvious cogency of Isaac Asimov's arguments explains the
enduring popularity of The Population Bomb despite its apparent
failure as a predictive tool... is one thing.
However, my main *critique* of James Nicoll's essay lies with another
sentence in it, part of which was: "Ehrlich expected Baby Boomers to
have as many kids each as their parents had."
What could be wrong with this sentence? Surely he is describing an
actual mistake made by Paul Ehrlich!
To the extent that Baby Boomers were having fewer children than their
parents because women's liberation meant that women were less
likely to relish taking care of a family with ten children, and that sort of
thing - yes, it's a valid critique.
*But* if fewer males were getting married because of the economic
reverses that happened after Gerald Ford started handing out those
Whip Inflation Now buttons, and then the 1973 oil embargo prevented
an economic recovery from ill-advised interest rate increases...
then it's an "invalid" criticism, at least in my opinion, because the
price of limiting population growth by this means is essentially too
high to be tolerated, and will lead to social instability, up to and
including the collapse of civilization! (From my vat-girl oeuvre,
it should have been obvious I was going here.)
One could also criticize the remark "this was clearly written before
the EPA was created", in the same sentence, on similar grounds.
That remark only makes sense, in the sense in which it was
intended, if, once you create an Environmental Protection
Agency, it will from that moment on exist forever and ever, always
protecting the environment with the same zeal, without letup.
With no possibility of a Ronald Reagan or a Donald Trump ever
diminishing its powers.
If unchecked population growth leads to mass starvation in the
United States, and repealing a few environmental regulations would allow
more food to be produced...
we can say bye-bye EPA. Hence, massive unchecked population growth
*does* lead to inevitable environmental degradation, even _after_
the world has witnessed the creation of the EPA.
So basically I fault James Nicoll for his excessive optimism, which
verges into a Polyanna-ish view of the world.
John Savard
David Johnston
Mar 19, 2023, 8:47:18 PM3/19/23
to
trend. They do not.
Titus G
Mar 20, 2023, 7:39:44 PM3/20/23
to
On 20/03/23 13:47, David Johnston wrote:> On 2023-03-19 9:55 a.m.,
Quadibloc wrote:
snip
>>
>> 1) We know that people who believe in a religion follow its teachings
>> with zombie-like faithfulness; look at 9/11!
>>
snip
Whilst the Chairman of the NY Port Authority that sold the twin towers
only months before 9/11 to a Zionist Jewish US billionaire (a personal
friend of the Israeli president and the owner of the third building that
also mysteriously collapsed in its own footprint on 9/11) was a Zionist
Jew, only Quadibloc would be block headed enough to suggest that
faithful followers of Judaism would be zombie-like in following Zionist
teachings where the exact opposite is true: that Judaism is a pacifist
religion whereas the political party that produces such presidents as
the convicted war criminal Sharon and current incumbent ex-commando
Netanyahu, was founded by fanatical terrorists who bayoneted pregnant
Palestinian women and who had fought alongside Hitler until their
betrayal of him in 1942.
Signed: The New Improved Titus (playing Quadibloc the Second) G.
Quadibloc wrote:
snip
>>
>> 1) We know that people who believe in a religion follow its teachings
>> with zombie-like faithfulness; look at 9/11!
>>
Whilst the Chairman of the NY Port Authority that sold the twin towers
only months before 9/11 to a Zionist Jewish US billionaire (a personal
friend of the Israeli president and the owner of the third building that
also mysteriously collapsed in its own footprint on 9/11) was a Zionist
Jew, only Quadibloc would be block headed enough to suggest that
faithful followers of Judaism would be zombie-like in following Zionist
teachings where the exact opposite is true: that Judaism is a pacifist
religion whereas the political party that produces such presidents as
the convicted war criminal Sharon and current incumbent ex-commando
Netanyahu, was founded by fanatical terrorists who bayoneted pregnant
Palestinian women and who had fought alongside Hitler until their
betrayal of him in 1942.
Signed: The New Improved Titus (playing Quadibloc the Second) G.
Titus G
Mar 20, 2023, 7:41:35 PM3/20/23
to
On 20/03/23 01:20, James Nicoll wrote:
snip
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
>
> Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
> authors.
Despite being disappointed with many of Harry Harrison stainless steel
re-reads, I enjoyed re-reading Make Room, Make Room earlier this year.
In an overcrowded New York with a population of 35m in 1999, (actual
9m), a dystopian tale is told of a policeman searching for a youth who
has committed manslaughter during a burglary, a crime not normally
investigated but there are political implications. The population boom
was background rather than the focus or emphasis of the story.
snip
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/make-room-make-room
>
> Technically off-topic but a text that influenced a lot of SF
> authors.
re-reads, I enjoyed re-reading Make Room, Make Room earlier this year.
In an overcrowded New York with a population of 35m in 1999, (actual
9m), a dystopian tale is told of a policeman searching for a youth who
has committed manslaughter during a burglary, a crime not normally
investigated but there are political implications. The population boom
was background rather than the focus or emphasis of the story.
David Brown
Mar 20, 2023, 8:37:43 PM3/20/23
to
James Nicoll
Mar 20, 2023, 9:07:36 PM3/20/23
to
In article <c5c790f4-1384-45ca...@googlegroups.com>,
I think you mean minimum doubling time. That said, you don't
understand how to play Population Bomb Panic.
A: The youngest person to have a baby was about 6.
B: The oldest person to have a baby was about 66.
C: The largest number of babies a person has had at one time
is 9.
D: Babies take nine months to bake.
Therefore, in the 60 years we'll assume women are fertile, they
can have up to 720 children each.
understand how to play Population Bomb Panic.
A: The youngest person to have a baby was about 6.
B: The oldest person to have a baby was about 66.
C: The largest number of babies a person has had at one time
is 9.
D: Babies take nine months to bake.
Therefore, in the 60 years we'll assume women are fertile, they
can have up to 720 children each.
Dimensional Traveler
Mar 20, 2023, 10:26:53 PM3/20/23
to
that crop yield per acre could never be increased above what it was at
the time and the no new farmland could ever be added to what existed at
the time.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 12:16:52 AM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 5:41:35 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> In an overcrowded New York with a population of 35m in 1999, (actual
> 9m), a dystopian tale is told of a policeman searching for a youth who
> has committed manslaughter during a burglary, a crime not normally
> investigated but there are political implications. The population boom
> was background rather than the focus or emphasis of the story.
I cannot agree with that last sentence. The story was not a futuristic
> In an overcrowded New York with a population of 35m in 1999, (actual
> 9m), a dystopian tale is told of a policeman searching for a youth who
> has committed manslaughter during a burglary, a crime not normally
> investigated but there are political implications. The population boom
> was background rather than the focus or emphasis of the story.
detective story aimed at people who wanted to read a detective story.
It was about the dystopian world created by overpopulation.
As its title even sort of hints.
But perhaps I misunderstand what you actually meant.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 12:19:56 AM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 5:39:44 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> Zionist
> Signed: The New Improved Titus (playing Quadibloc the Second) G.
You must have me confused with someone else.
John Savard
> Zionist
> Signed: The New Improved Titus (playing Quadibloc the Second) G.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 12:23:24 AM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 6:37:43 PM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
> the maximum doubling time for the human population would be
> about 5 years, with 10-15 being most realistic. The proposition
> that this could outstrip the increase in agricultural output for all
> human civilization before any checks from mortality or fertility
> kicked in was therefore unlikely at best.
I'm sort of puzzled by this.
> the maximum doubling time for the human population would be
> about 5 years, with 10-15 being most realistic. The proposition
> that this could outstrip the increase in agricultural output for all
> human civilization before any checks from mortality or fertility
> kicked in was therefore unlikely at best.
If a *check from mortality* kicks in, then the BAD THING of
population increase outstripping the increase in agricultural
output has happened.
Excessive population increase would have indeed caused some
people to go hungry.
What more of a disaster do you need?
John Savard
Titus G
Mar 21, 2023, 1:44:32 AM3/21/23
to
When coward Savard is snookered, he snips covertly. For me it is a
childish but interesting exercise to review what he snips. I worry that
replying to Fourbricks might be a sign of slow onset dementia but I will
this time.
Misunderstand? What I don't understand is why is it that you have a
perfect knowledge of Putin's motivations though you speak no Russian,
have not even read his translated addresses to the UN and have no
knowledge of his and numerous other nations' criticism of US hegemony
and western colonialism in general which are the opposite to just about
everything you vomit BUT you profess to be concerned over whether you
correctly understood a simple straightforward sentence as quoted from
above: "The population boom was background rather than the focus or
emphasis of the story."
Wow. Is that more complex than the history of Western White Supremacist
Ukrainians now with US nurturing versus Russian speaking Eastern
Ukrainians? Obviously the dystopia was caused by excessive
indiscriminate shagging and ONE problematic aspect was that breaking the
sixth commandment was practically not illegal. One minor aspect of
insufficient space in one city. The McGuffin was political and could
have occurred with any background. Oh, and no, it was not a detective story.
I enjoyed the re-read and the intention of my comments was not negative.
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 8:41:59 AM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> What I don't understand is why is it that you have a
> perfect knowledge of Putin's motivations though you speak no Russian,
> have not even read his translated addresses to the UN and have no
> knowledge of his and numerous other nations' criticism of US hegemony
> and western colonialism in general
The West has indeed committed many sins against the Third World.
> What I don't understand is why is it that you have a
> perfect knowledge of Putin's motivations though you speak no Russian,
> have not even read his translated addresses to the UN and have no
> knowledge of his and numerous other nations' criticism of US hegemony
> and western colonialism in general
From Leopold II in the Belgian Congo, now Zaire, down to the overthrow
of Arbenz in Guatemala, there is a sad record.
But it would be a _non sequitur_ of tragic proportions to conclude from
that sad record that FDR was bad, and Hitler was good, or that Truman was
bad and Hitler was good.
The United States is not perfect, but its role in the history of the developed
world, at least, is as a force working in the right direction, towards freedom.
What I know of the situation in Ukraine is this:
- Viktor Yanyukovich was spontaneously overthrown by an uprising of the
Ukrainian people. This was caused by him responding to a small protest
against his decision to align more closely with Russia instead of the European
Union with heavy-handed brutality. So he revealed he was not the man
Ukrainians thought they had democratically elected, but an impostor.
- Russia's pretext for invading Ukraine, that it is run by Nazis, and persecuted
people of Russian origin, consists of lies. It is reminiscent of the Sudeten
Germans which were Hitler's pretext for invading Czechoslovakia.
I have set up, in response to the present emergency, a chronology of the situation
in Ukraine on the page
http://www.quadibloc.com/other/timeline.htm
Usually, I have kept politics off of my page, sticking to interesting topics in science
and mathematics, but under current circumstances, the record needs to be kept
clear.
I should note, too, that some of your comments here are of a highly
inappropriate nature in the context of there being a war on. Silly me, I
expect, in the Western industrialized world, the same sort of unanimity
on Putin's activities in Ukraine as there was in the United States on
Hitler's activities outside Germany in Europe subsequent to December
7, 1941. Any minor details in which there are discrepancies between the
situation as described by Volodomyr Zelensky and the actual truth can
be sorted out by historians in far-future decades.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 8:52:06 AM3/21/23
to
On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 6:41:59 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> > What I don't understand is why is it that you have a
> > perfect knowledge of Putin's motivations though you speak no Russian,
> > have not even read his translated addresses to the UN and have no
> > knowledge of his and numerous other nations' criticism of US hegemony
> > and western colonialism in general
I am aware of some of the things he has said. Here is a comment on
> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 11:44:32 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> > What I don't understand is why is it that you have a
> > perfect knowledge of Putin's motivations though you speak no Russian,
> > have not even read his translated addresses to the UN and have no
> > knowledge of his and numerous other nations' criticism of US hegemony
> > and western colonialism in general
one of them from the web page I referenced on my site:
March 18, 2014: In a speech justifying his annexation of Crimea,
Vladmir Putin states: "Do not believe those who want you to fear
Russia, shouting that other regions will follow Crimea. We do not
want to divide Ukraine; we do not need that." As the world sees
on August 22, 2014, this had as much truth to it as Adolph Hitler's
statement of September 26, 1938 at the Berlin Sportspalast: "The
Sudetenland is the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe,
but it is a demand on which I shall not yield. I am thankful to Mr.
Chamberlain for all his trouble, and I assured him that the German
people want nothing but peace, but I also declared that I cannot go
beyond the limits of our patience".
August 22, 2014, of course, is the day when Russian "volunteers"
began the invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Putin *lied to the world*. The same way that Hitler did.
He is engaged in a brutal war of aggression against an innocent and
peaceful people, whose only "crime" is that they wanted, behind
NATO and Article 5, to be just every bit as secure from the possibility
of an invasion of Russia as are the people of Georgia.
No, not the one that Russia invaded in 2008. The Peachtree State,
in which James Earl Carter lives.
To be against this is to think that Ukrainians are not human beings,
because they have less rights than Americans who are the only
real human beings. That, of course, is bigotry.
In this current conflict, right and wrong are simple and obvious, and
there is no point in trying to make them complicated.
John Savard
David Brown
Mar 21, 2023, 4:57:59 PM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:26:53 PM UTC-7, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> There was also the assumption in the writing that started the whole meme
> that crop yield per acre could never be increased above what it was at
> the time and the no new farmland could ever be added to what existed at
> the time.
>
> --
> I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
> dirty old man.
That's where I find myself wondering if Malthus was being willfully obtuse for some rhetorical point lost on us. It was obvious that there were vast territories wide open for development in North America alone. The actual "problem" was, of course, that England was in danger of losing access to this source of food because of the Revolutionary War, which simply presents another case where nutritional insecurity had far more to do with politics than food.
> There was also the assumption in the writing that started the whole meme
> that crop yield per acre could never be increased above what it was at
> the time and the no new farmland could ever be added to what existed at
> the time.
>
> --
> I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
> dirty old man.
David Brown
Mar 21, 2023, 5:35:36 PM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 9:23:24 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> If a *check from mortality* kicks in, then the BAD THING of
> population increase outstripping the increase in agricultural
> output has happened.
> Excessive population increase would have indeed caused some
> people to go hungry.
> What more of a disaster do you need?
>
This comes down to the difference between realistic "self correction" and the predictions of catastrophic famine that the instigators of the overpopulation panic constantly and gleefully made for the developing world in particular. A key consideration they never seem to have taken into account is that fertility is as closely connected to nutrition as mortality. The final safety valve is where adult women cease menstruation and children and teenagers stop entering puberty because of starvation or malnutrition, so there are at least no more people being added to the starving. These things are of course painful, "bad" and outright gruesome, but they were and are "normal" for pre industrial societies and they "work" without fretting and meddling from outside. The stupid part, building on another reply, is that Malthus himself outlined many of these things. They were simply left out when inconvenient by the doomsayers who followed.
> If a *check from mortality* kicks in, then the BAD THING of
> population increase outstripping the increase in agricultural
> output has happened.
> Excessive population increase would have indeed caused some
> people to go hungry.
> What more of a disaster do you need?
>
Titus G
Mar 21, 2023, 9:12:19 PM3/21/23
to
On 22/03/23 01:41, Quadibloc wrote:
Following Fourbrick's standard procedure, this reply has undocumented
snippage to emphasise my position by removing context and highlighting
apparent absurdities. It is an inappropriate post to this newsgroup
>
> But it would be a _non sequitur_ of tragic proportions to conclude from
> that sad record that FDR was bad, and Hitler was good, or that Truman was
> bad and Hitler was good.
I believe that if Nazi Germany had won WW2, Fourbricks would be saluting
the same salute as these citizens of Lviv in 2018 in this short article
and video from "The Times of Israel" which Fourbricks won't read.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-symbols-salutes-on-display-at-ukrainian-nationalist-march/
"The glorification of fighters who allied with the Nazis against Russian
domination increased considerably in volume after 2013. In 2015, the
Ukrainian parliament passed a law that criminalizes denying the
“heroism” of some of these allies of Nazi Germany, which oversaw the
near annihilation of the region’s Jews."
> - Viktor Yanyukovich was spontaneously overthrown by an uprising of the
> Ukrainian
Nazis funded by George Soros and the NED. Principal players were the
then privately funded Azov battalion whose official insignia, a
combination of Nazi SS insignia, can be viewed here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AAzov_Battalion_and_SS_Emblems_And_Symbols.jpg
Although the US media attempts to minimise this aspect, even the
following 2022 CNN article includes far too many facts for poor
Fourbricks to cope with.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html
The US has replaced Russia as the main supplier of gas to Europe. Will
you tell me next that the gas pipeline from Russia to Germany
spontaneously exploded?
President Biden's lawyers have explained that the 60 monthly payments of
$50,000 from Hunter to the head of the Biden crime family were for rent
for something and nothing to do with the 60 monthly payments of $50,000
totalling 3m from the Ukranian gas company to Hunter.
> I should note, too, that some of your comments here are of a highly
> inappropriate nature in the context of there being a war on.
You silly twat. The US is always at war. It is the 20th anniversary of
the invasion of Iraq, a country of about 20m where about 1m were
murdered and about 4m displaced. Has Russia used depleted uranium or
white phosphorous in the Ukraine? Have you heard of Abu Ghraib?
The film "Black Hawk Down" glorified war back in the 1980's. The US is
still murdering Somalians, occupying part of Syria and stealing their
oil, assisting Saudi Arabia in their eight year old war in Yemen, blah,
blah, blah ad infinitum.
To counter the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US funded and
assisted the Taliban even to the extent of propaganda in schoolbooks
printed in Texas. That certainly came back and bit them in the arse!
Acting as the ISIS airforce in Syria hasn't worked out too well either.
And why should the US go to war with Russia, (China) when they make more
money by sacrificing Ukranians, (Australians?).
Silly me,
We do agree on something.
Following Fourbrick's standard procedure, this reply has undocumented
snippage to emphasise my position by removing context and highlighting
apparent absurdities. It is an inappropriate post to this newsgroup
>
> But it would be a _non sequitur_ of tragic proportions to conclude from
> that sad record that FDR was bad, and Hitler was good, or that Truman was
> bad and Hitler was good.
the same salute as these citizens of Lviv in 2018 in this short article
and video from "The Times of Israel" which Fourbricks won't read.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-symbols-salutes-on-display-at-ukrainian-nationalist-march/
"The glorification of fighters who allied with the Nazis against Russian
domination increased considerably in volume after 2013. In 2015, the
Ukrainian parliament passed a law that criminalizes denying the
“heroism” of some of these allies of Nazi Germany, which oversaw the
near annihilation of the region’s Jews."
> - Viktor Yanyukovich was spontaneously overthrown by an uprising of the
> Ukrainian
then privately funded Azov battalion whose official insignia, a
combination of Nazi SS insignia, can be viewed here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AAzov_Battalion_and_SS_Emblems_And_Symbols.jpg
Although the US media attempts to minimise this aspect, even the
following 2022 CNN article includes far too many facts for poor
Fourbricks to cope with.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html
The US has replaced Russia as the main supplier of gas to Europe. Will
you tell me next that the gas pipeline from Russia to Germany
spontaneously exploded?
President Biden's lawyers have explained that the 60 monthly payments of
$50,000 from Hunter to the head of the Biden crime family were for rent
for something and nothing to do with the 60 monthly payments of $50,000
totalling 3m from the Ukranian gas company to Hunter.
> I should note, too, that some of your comments here are of a highly
> inappropriate nature in the context of there being a war on.
the invasion of Iraq, a country of about 20m where about 1m were
murdered and about 4m displaced. Has Russia used depleted uranium or
white phosphorous in the Ukraine? Have you heard of Abu Ghraib?
The film "Black Hawk Down" glorified war back in the 1980's. The US is
still murdering Somalians, occupying part of Syria and stealing their
oil, assisting Saudi Arabia in their eight year old war in Yemen, blah,
blah, blah ad infinitum.
To counter the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US funded and
assisted the Taliban even to the extent of propaganda in schoolbooks
printed in Texas. That certainly came back and bit them in the arse!
Acting as the ISIS airforce in Syria hasn't worked out too well either.
And why should the US go to war with Russia, (China) when they make more
money by sacrificing Ukranians, (Australians?).
Silly me,
We do agree on something.
Titus G
Mar 21, 2023, 9:31:59 PM3/21/23
to
On 22/03/23 01:41, Quadibloc wrote and I edited it a little:
> The West has indeed committed many sins against the Third World.
>
Of course Gadaffi was bad. In fact he was evil to the extent that he
refined wealthy Libya's oil before export pouring billions into
reclaiming desert land unlike say poverty stricken Nigeria whose
politicians and foreign oil companies the main beneficiaries. Even
worse, the people of Libya were subject to free health care, free
education and subsidised accommodation. Writing about such evil is so
depressing that I give notice to no longer reply to Fourbricks political
sludge.
> The West has indeed committed many sins against the Third World.
>
> But it would be a _non sequitur_ of tragic proportions to conclude from
> that sad record that Gadaffi was bad, and Hillary was good,
Of course Gadaffi was bad. In fact he was evil to the extent that he
refined wealthy Libya's oil before export pouring billions into
reclaiming desert land unlike say poverty stricken Nigeria whose
politicians and foreign oil companies the main beneficiaries. Even
worse, the people of Libya were subject to free health care, free
education and subsidised accommodation. Writing about such evil is so
depressing that I give notice to no longer reply to Fourbricks political
sludge.
Quadibloc
Mar 21, 2023, 11:58:49 PM3/21/23
to
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:26:53 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> There was also the assumption in the writing that started the whole meme
> that crop yield per acre could never be increased above what it was at
> the time and the no new farmland could ever be added to what existed at
> the time.
The achievements of the Green Revolution came as a surprise at the time.
> There was also the assumption in the writing that started the whole meme
> that crop yield per acre could never be increased above what it was at
> the time and the no new farmland could ever be added to what existed at
> the time.
And since farming is a mature technology, it's not as if something like
Moore's Law applies to it. Of course there is no doubt still room for
improvement, but we can't depend on *big* improvements coming
regularly.
So to _plan_ future population growth, it would only make sense not to
make optimistic assumptions that aren't backed up by solid fact. (This,
of course, assumes that limiting population growth comes without cost,
which would be true if people behaved far more reasonably and sensibly
than they in fact do.)
John Savard
Quadibloc
Mar 22, 2023, 12:12:23 AM3/22/23
to
On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 7:12:19 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> this short article
> and video from "The Times of Israel" which Fourbricks won't read.
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-symbols-salutes-on-display-at-ukrainian-nationalist-march/
> "The glorification of fighters who allied with the Nazis against Russian
> domination increased considerably in volume after 2013. In 2015, the
> Ukrainian parliament passed a law that criminalizes denying the
> “heroism” of some of these allies of Nazi Germany, which oversaw the
> near annihilation of the region’s Jews."
Hey, I did read the book "Old Wounds" by Harold Troper.
> this short article
> and video from "The Times of Israel" which Fourbricks won't read.
> https://www.timesofisrael.com/nazi-symbols-salutes-on-display-at-ukrainian-nationalist-march/
> "The glorification of fighters who allied with the Nazis against Russian
> domination increased considerably in volume after 2013. In 2015, the
> Ukrainian parliament passed a law that criminalizes denying the
> “heroism” of some of these allies of Nazi Germany, which oversaw the
> near annihilation of the region’s Jews."
> Nazis funded by George Soros and the NED.
the sane party to this debate, even if that is contrary to my usual
record.
> President Biden's lawyers have explained that the 60 monthly payments of
> $50,000 from Hunter to the head of the Biden crime family
the Gambino crime family. This "Biden crime family", on the other hand,
does not seem to feature in any news reports on the mainstream news
media.
> You silly twat. The US is always at war.
I have to admit that in the context of an absolute and impartial
morality, that's not much of an effective reply.
But in practice, in the world as it is, things that happen in what
the world's wealthy industrialized countries percieve as their own
backyard to take on a great deal more importance than things that
happen far away in the less fortunate countries of the world.
Even when we refrain from doing anything to make it worse, there's
still a lot of unpleasantness going on in Africa, for example.
John Savard
Titus G
Mar 22, 2023, 12:28:27 AM3/22/23
to
On 22/03/23 17:12, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 7:12:19 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> You should realize that most people are not going to view _you_ as
> the sane party to this debate, even if that is contrary to my usual
> record.
https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
> On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 7:12:19 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> You should realize that most people are not going to view _you_ as
> the sane party to this debate, even if that is contrary to my usual
> record.
Quadibloc
Mar 22, 2023, 2:05:50 AM3/22/23
to
On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 10:28:27 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
> https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
Vicious lies. If Ukraine had been in NATO, then Russia couldn't have
attacked it without starting World War III. So the Ukrainian people would
have enjoyed peace. So naturally they had been wanting to join NATO.
But Putin wanted to have his own puppet running Ukraine instead.
They committed a brutal and unprovoked attack against a peaceful
country. No amount of excuses like "legitimate security concerns"
can alter that obvious fact.
As I said: there's a war on. And you're taking the side of the enemy.
John Savard
> https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
Vicious lies. If Ukraine had been in NATO, then Russia couldn't have
attacked it without starting World War III. So the Ukrainian people would
have enjoyed peace. So naturally they had been wanting to join NATO.
But Putin wanted to have his own puppet running Ukraine instead.
They committed a brutal and unprovoked attack against a peaceful
country. No amount of excuses like "legitimate security concerns"
can alter that obvious fact.
As I said: there's a war on. And you're taking the side of the enemy.
John Savard
Titus G
Mar 22, 2023, 2:11:18 AM3/22/23
to
On 22/03/23 19:05, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 10:28:27 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
>
>> https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
>
> Vicious lies.
You are beyond hope.
> On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 10:28:27 PM UTC-6, Titus G wrote:
>
>> https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
>
> Vicious lies.
pete...@gmail.com
Mar 22, 2023, 8:35:32 AM3/22/23
to
And a state sponsor of terrorism.
But he was more than a simple autocrat. A lot of the things he
did (the Great Manmade River project, for example) and his
social policies substantially benefitted ordinary Lybyans.
Per-capita GDP increased 5 fold during his reign, and it wasn't
kept in just the ruling elite.
pt
Quadibloc
Mar 22, 2023, 3:10:52 PM3/22/23
to
truth in some of them... but that just makes them "a harder matter
to fight".
I mean, really. Poland is in NATO. Are Poland's cities being shelled?
So it's obvious why it would have been a good thing for Ukraine to be in
NATO.
And that Yanyukovych brutally suppressed opposition, and wasted the
people's money on things like a private zoo for himself... these are facts.
Or that they don't have fair elections in Russia. To prevent Gary Kasparov
from running against him, Putin made a law requiring a big nomination
meeting, and then intimidated anyone with a suitable hall to rent so no one
would rent one to Kasparov.
And Putin actually said he didn't want anything in Ukraine beyond Crimea.
So he lied to us. Not only that, but it's the *same* lie Hitler told about the
Sudetenland. And, of course, the lies about Russians being persecuted are
just like Hitler's lies about the Sudeten Germans.
The idea that countries right on Russia's borders joining NATO is some kind
of "threat" is laughable. If we felt like starting World War III by invading Russia,
Russia's invasion of Ukraine would have just been the thing to overcome any
remaining reluctance. So if Russia invading Ukraine hasn't led to Russia being
invaded, Ukraine being in NATO wouldn't have either.
And why does Ukraine want to join NATO, besides that it would have been a
way to have ironclad protection (since Putin is a liar, his promises mean nothing)
against being invaded?
Perhaps you're not aware of Ukraine's long history with Russia.
http://www.quadibloc.com/other/timeline.htm
I've prepared a handy guide. From the current invasion to the Holodomor to the
tsars.
I know the U.S. is not perfect. I haven't forgotten Arbenz, for example.
Because Putin chose to be a fascist instead of a Communist, Big Business
didn't see him as an existential threat, so while there was a very alert
response - with excesses, such as McCarthyism - to Communism, the
response to Putin was lackadaisical, just as the response to Hitler and
Mussolini was lackadaisical back in the day.
Now that Ukraine has been invaded, the world has *finally* awakened to the
deadly menace Putin presents. Unfortunately, learning the lessons of Munich
doesn't exactly help that much because this time, he has nukes.
Or, for just a *tiny* example, enough to prove that Putin is evil, remember May
23, 2021, when a Ryanair flight, passing over Belarus, was diverted under
false pretenses so that Belarusian authorities could seize a political dissident
criticizing their regime from abroad.
This is the kind of mad dictator Putin supports. In a just world, it would have
led to immediate regime change in Belarus.
John Savard
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