The Deer and the Cauldron: A Martial Arts Novel
Ian McDowell
edition (two volumes so far, with a third forthcoming) of the last novel
by Louis Cha (aka Jin Yong), who is possibly the most popular Chinese
novelist and definitely the bestselling Asian fantasist Cha, who has
been variously compared to Dumas (an acknowledged influence), Stevenson,
Louis L'Amour, Edgar Rice Burroughs, and Robert E. Howard, is generally
considered the 20th Century's premier wuxia (or Wu Xia) novelist.
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon has made that term slightly more familiar to
Westerners, but for those who don't know, wuxia stories, which are also
called "Chivalry Tales" or "Emprise Novels," are historical fantasies in
which male and female "knights errant" (Chinese scholars have embraced
that Western term, stressing that the Chinese conception of the "knight"
is VERY different than the Japanese one of the Samurai) possess
supernatural martial arts skills (the Wuxia Pian or "Chivalry Movie" is a
separate genre from the Gongfu Pian or "Kung Fu Film," fwiw). The movies
have generally concentrated on _qigong_, or "weightless leaping" (not so
much flying as form of temporary levitation), but in the literary form
adepts display a wide range of superpowers (my favorites are the Essence
Absorbing Stance and the Time-Folding Fist).
I gather that The Deer and The Cauldron is somewhat atypical Cha, more
cynical and picaresque than much of his oeuvre. The tone is urbane (the
translation by John Mimford is commendable) and colloquial, with much
bawdery and slapstick. More than anything else, it reminds me of a Jet Li
movie written by George McDonald Fraser. Trinket, Cha's roguish
anti-hero, has some affinities with Harry Flashman. His martial prowes is
more genuine, of course, and he has more empathy for the common man, but
he can be just as much of a bastard, and the bedroom-view (and sometimes
bedpan-view) of real historical events is not dissimilar. Coincidentally,
the first volume of The Deer and the Cauldron appeared in 1969, the same
year as Flashman.
The two volumes that have appeared so far as very much worth their $35
price tags, in my opinion. The books are attractive and durable, and Cha
and Minford provide witty introductions and a very useful Glossary of
Terms (the entry on "The Brotherhood of Rivers and Lakes" is a mini-essay
that's the explanation of the concept of _Jiang Hu_, a term that is
untranslated in the Crouching Tiger, HIdden Dragon subtitles, that I've
ever read). I eagerly await the third and final one, as well as upcoming
Oxford University Press editions of The Romance of Book and Sword and the
epic Eagles and Heroes (aka The Eagle-Shooting Heroes and Legend of Condor
Heroes, and, dimly, the inspiration for Wong Kar-Wai's maddeningly
elliptical but heartbreakingly beautiful film Ashes of Time).
Definitely the best fantasy novel I've read since Perdito Street Station.
Rachel Brown
> edition (two volumes so far, with a third forthcoming) of the last novel
> by Louis Cha (aka Jin Yong), who is possibly the most popular Chinese
> novelist and definitely the bestselling Asian fantasist Cha, who has
> been variously compared to Dumas (an acknowledged influence), Stevenson,
> Louis L'Amour, Edgar Rice Burroughs, and Robert E. Howard, is generally
> considered the 20th Century's premier wuxia (or Wu Xia) novelist.
Wow. Cool. I'd been planning to dig up some of the old ones, but I didn't
realize they were still being written now. Is _The Water Margin_ in that
genre, or is that a realistic (you know what I mean) kung fu book?
> (the Wuxia Pian or "Chivalry Movie" is a
> separate genre from the Gongfu Pian or "Kung Fu Film," fwiw).
Are the fantasy elements of the former the sole difference?
>The movies
> have generally concentrated on _qigong_, or "weightless leaping" (not so
> much flying as form of temporary levitation), but in the literary form
> adepts display a wide range of superpowers (my favorites are the Essence
> Absorbing Stance and the Time-Folding Fist).
I seem to recall the former from "Swordsman II."
I was pleased to note that a lot of people I know who knew nothing about
fantasy or wuxia (or any other Asian) movies not only had no trouble with
the levitating in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but immediately figured
out how it related to one's martial and spiritual potential and training.
So much for all those Hollywood bozos who spent years whining to me, "We
can't make fantasy movies, they're too complicated, no one will be able to
understand the rules."
> The two volumes that have appeared so far as very much worth their $35
> price tags, in my opinion.
I'm collecting unemployment right now (TV show went down in flames and the
damn novel STILL isn't done, dammit). Are these going to come out in
paperback, or should I start harassing the library?
Rachel, still recovering from the smashed toe I suffered while taking a
karate test last Saturday. I expect I needed the Essence Absorbing Stance.
But I soldiered on and am now but one test away from being a green belt (to
match the huge bruise on my foot), so it's all good.
She was a vixen when she went to school,
And though she be but little, she is fierce
William Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
Liz Broadwell
: I was pleased to note that a lot of people I know who knew nothing about
: fantasy or wuxia (or any other Asian) movies not only had no trouble with
: the levitating in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but immediately figured
: out how it related to one's martial and spiritual potential and training.
I wish they had been in the theater with me when I saw CTHD. There was a
significant group of people who felt compelled to laugh hysterically every
time anybody left the ground, to my distraction and annoyance. Unusual
behavior for this particular theater's crowd, too, which made it even more
distracting and annoying.
: So much for all those Hollywood bozos who spent years whining to me, "We
: can't make fantasy movies, they're too complicated, no one will be able to
: understand the rules."
Bah, humbug (in spite of the laughing people).
Peace,
Liz "is there something you'd like to share with the rest of us?" B.
--
Elizabeth Broadwell | "Who will read 423 pages about an unfin-
(ebro...@english.upenn.edu) | ished journey undertaken by mythical crea-
Department of English | tures with confusing names? Probably no
University of Pennsylvania | one, but I still say it is wonderful."
Philadelphia, PA | -- Anne Barrett
James C. Ellis
>
> Rachel Brown (r.ph...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> : I was pleased to note that a lot of people I know who knew nothing
> : about fantasy or wuxia (or any other Asian) movies not only had no
> : trouble with the levitating in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but
> : immediately figured out how it related to one's martial and
> : spiritual potential and training.
>
> I wish they had been in the theater with me when I saw CTHD. There
> was a significant group of people who felt compelled to laugh
> hysterically every time anybody left the ground, to my distraction and
> annoyance. Unusual behavior for this particular theater's crowd, too,
> which made it even more distracting and annoying.
You too, eh?
The first time I saw it, there was a particular group of yokels that
reacted as you describe. One would think that after seeing it a few
times they'd calm down, but nope; the final leap was greeted with
cackles, quite destroying the effect that Lee was trying to achieve.
I was so miffed I had to see it again but a few days later (no great
hardship in any event), and this time the crowd reacted appropriately.
Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Plotkin
> Rachel Brown (r.ph...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> : I was pleased to note that a lot of people I know who knew nothing about
> : fantasy or wuxia (or any other Asian) movies not only had no trouble with
> : the levitating in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but immediately figured
> : out how it related to one's martial and spiritual potential and training.
> I wish they had been in the theater with me when I saw CTHD. There was a
> significant group of people who felt compelled to laugh hysterically every
> time anybody left the ground, to my distraction and annoyance.
I did find it strange and mildly ridiculous at first. I eventually
oriented myself (ha ha) by remembering the scenes in _The Story of the
Stone_ where a character walks across a chasm by balancing on currents
of chi.
I don't know how non Hughart fans are supposed to figure it out.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* My vote counts -- count my vote!
Estraven
[ flying in _Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon_ ]
> I did find it strange and mildly ridiculous at first. I eventually
> oriented myself (ha ha) by remembering the scenes in _The Story of the
> Stone_ where a character walks across a chasm by balancing on currents
> of chi.
>
> I don't know how non Hughart fans are supposed to figure it out.
It reminded me strongly of how flying works in my flying-dreams, so it was
not at all difficult for me to accept it. (Contrast Superman's flying,
which always struck me as silly.) In any case, I'd not expect the idea of
supernatural abilities resulting from extensive training to be difficult to
understand or accept; the details of chi, etc., are largely irrelevant.
But I had a few hyenas in my audience too.
Ian McDowell
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>I don't know how non Hughart fans are supposed to figure it out.
Apparently, plenty of them did. And don't forget, the movie seems to have
been made to A) fulfill a childhood of dream of Ang Lee's by paying homage
to COME DRINK WITH ME, DRAGON INN, A TOUCH OF ZEN and the other wuxia
epics he saw as a child, and B) to make Sony some money in Eastern markets
(the same reason they've been investing in Hong Kong movies, financing
such projects as Tsui Hark's TIME AND TIDE). Until the Cannes and Toronto
film festivals went crazy over it, it was viewed as a prestige picture but
not something that would make much money in the West.
Which, to everybody involved's surprise, it's done in spades. Not that it
wouldn't have been profitable even if it hadn't. The erroneous but
widely-reported claim that it was a critical and commercial failure in
Asia seems on its way to becoming another Hollywood urban legend, up there
with the equally false beliefs that 1950's 3D movies were watched with red
and blue glasses, that Fatty Arbuckle was guilty, that Orson Welles was
forced to cast Charlton Heston as a Mexican in TOUCH OF EVIL, and that THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE was withdrawn due to Kennedy's assasination.
Getting back to the subject line, here's John Minford's helpful note on
qigong (or ging-gong) from his General Glossary of Terms: "FLYING, Art of
(qing-gong). This is a semi-legendary type of levitational kung fu, by
means of which the practitioner can move with extraordinary lightness and
rapidity, and without actually touching the ground or leaving any trace."
Many wuxia novels depict superpowers far more gaudy than this, with
characters shooting death rays out of their eyes (there's a particularly
amusing ray-shooting aerial dogfight between Brigitte Lin and Gong Li in
the film based on Cha's DEMI-GODS AND SEMI-DEVILS), growing or shrinking
in size and folding back time. Ang Lee chose to concentrate on qigong
because it's the most oneric of these powers; his characters fight and
soar the way I do in my dreams. Plus, it can achieved onscreen by "purer"
means -- i.e., pulley and muscle power rather than CGI.
Andrew Plotkin
> Getting back to the subject line, here's John Minford's helpful note on
> qigong (or ging-gong) from his General Glossary of Terms: "FLYING, Art of
I suppose I'm the last person on the planet to notice the reference in
the Jedi's name (in Star Wars ep1).
Well, better late than sliced in half by a red-and-black piece of
scenery, I guess.
Phil Fraering
> I was pleased to note that a lot of people I know who knew nothing about
> fantasy or wuxia (or any other Asian) movies not only had no trouble with
> the levitating in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but immediately figured
> out how it related to one's martial and spiritual potential and training.
Actually, I seem to be alone in thinking that the flying didn't improve
matters in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," but instead just made the
fights look more unreal.
OTOH, I think the effect as a whole worked in the Bamboo Forest/
Waterfall sequence, even if nowhere else in the movie.
And now I find out it's a genre convention.
--
Phil Fraering "American-style iced tea is the perfect drink for
p...@globalreach.net a hot, sunny day. It's never really caught on in
the UK, probably because the last time we had a
hot, sunny day was back in 1957." - Tom Holt
djinn
check out www.asiapacbooks.com
>Rachel, still recovering from the smashed toe I suffered while taking a
>karate test last Saturday. I expect I needed the Essence Absorbing Stance.
>But I soldiered on and am now but one test away from being a green belt (to
>match the huge bruise on my foot), so it's all good.
>
Maybe some Iron Toe qigong :)
>She was a vixen when she went to school,
>And though she be but little, she is fierce
>
>William Shakespeare, "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
>
Xiao Long !!
Ian McDowell
<r.ph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Wow. Cool. I'd been planning to dig up some of the old ones, but I didn't
>realize they were still being written now.
It may depend upon how one defines "now." The most popular 20th century
Wuxia novels seem to have written several decades ago. Louis Cha is still
alive, but _The Deer and the Cauldron_, which was his last novel, was
original serialized between 1969 and 1972. Many of his most popular (and
more typical) novels date from the 40's and 50's. The novel that _Bride
with White Hair_ is based on dates from the 50's. Perhaps it's
significant that the only post-1995 Hong Kong wuxia film of any note, _The
Storm Riders_, is based on a comic book.
Is _The Water Margin_ in that
>genre, or is that a realistic (you know what I mean) kung fu book?
I've never read it and only know it by reputation. I'm under the
impression that it's not as extravagant and fantastic as most 20th century
Wuxia novels are. There have been several films based on it that are
generally classified as Gongfu Pian rather than Wuxia Pian. Still, it can
be said to have inspired the genre (and much else -- it's an often-cited
influence on John Woo's films).
>> (the Wuxia Pian or "Chivalry Movie" is a
>> separate genre from the Gongfu Pian or "Kung Fu Film," fwiw).
>
>Are the fantasy elements of the former the sole difference?
Hmm. Good question. The 90's revival of historical martial arts films
blurred the boundaries a bit, with Tsui Hark and others applying the
wirework techniques that had been developed for fantasies like _A Chinese
Ghost Story_ to the real historical figure of Wong Fei-Hung. Still, in
movies like like _Once Upon A Time in China_ and _Fong Sai-Yuk_ the
superhuman feats depicted via wirework seem meant more as the product of
human muscle power than spiritual or mental abilities.
Generally speaking, Gongfu Pian are set in the more recent past, whereas
Wuxia Pian take place in earlier centuries. _Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon_ is the very rare Wuxia movie that takes in the Manchu era, with
characters in pigtails and white pyjamas rather than having long hair and
colorful robes. Most Wuxia Pian are set in the Han rather than the Qin
dynasty, although they may take place at the very end of it (as in _The
Bride With White Hair_, where the establishment of the Manchu dynasty is
noted in passing near the end of the film). Gongfu Pian are more likely
to be centered around 19th century folk heroes like Fong Sai-Yuk and Wong
Fei-Hung. Western encroachment is more likely to be acknowledged by the
Gongfu Pian than the Wuxia Pian -- indeed, the rise of the Colonial Powers
and the inadequacy of martial arts in the face of gun powder is a common
theme in many late 70's Shaw Brothers movies and, of course, is addressed
in _Once Upon A Time in China_.
>>The movies
>> have generally concentrated on _qigong_, or "weightless leaping" (not so
>> much flying as form of temporary levitation), but in the literary form
>> adepts display a wide range of superpowers (my favorites are the Essence
>> Absorbing Stance and the Time-Folding Fist).
>
>I seem to recall the former from "Swordsman II."
_Swordsman 2_, like the original _Swordsman_, is (loosely) based on Louis
Cha's _The Proud and Laughing Wanderer_. It also depicts characters using
"sword energy," in which the combatants' blades unleash deadly (but
invisible) rays that rend the earth. And in _Semi-Gods and Demi-Devils_,
aka _The Dragon Chronicles_ and also based on a Cha novel, Gong Li and
Brigitte Lin engage in a protracted aerial dogfight and shoot rays from
their eyes (I much prefer Gong Li being superhuman and/or goofy in Hong
Kong fantasies and comedies to her nobly suffering peasants in Mainland
dramas)
>So much for all those Hollywood bozos who spent years whining to me, "We
>can't make fantasy movies, they're too complicated, no one will be able to
>understand the rules."
The audience was quiet and respectful when I first saw it at Lincoln
Center, and at the end a Mrs. Thurston Howell lookalike in a fox stole
asked Toune if she could borrow some of her kleenix. More surprisingly,
the audience also refrained from inappropriate giggling when I saw it
again in Greensboro, NC, and when the show let out one teenage usher said
"geez, why is everybody crying; I thought this was a fighting movie!"
>I'm collecting unemployment right now (TV show went down in flames and the
>damn novel STILL isn't done, dammit). Are these going to come out in
>paperback, or should I start harassing the library?
Probably should do the latter. I haven't heard of any plans for a paperback
>Rachel, still recovering from the smashed toe I suffered while taking a
>karate test last Saturday. I expect I needed the Essence Absorbing Stance.
>But I soldiered on and am now but one test away from being a green belt (to
>match the huge bruise on my foot), so it's all good.
Sympathies, Rachel. It's good, though, that your sensei is making the
belt test pretty strenuous, and it's not just a McDojo.
Ian
Mark Jason Dominus
Nobody laughed when the characters did it in _The Matrix_.
James Nicoll
Ian McDowell <ian...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <01c0b1bf$7c70a1c0$3f07500c@default>, "Rachel Brown"
><r.ph...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Wow. Cool. I'd been planning to dig up some of the old ones, but I didn't
>>realize they were still being written now.
>
>It may depend upon how one defines "now." The most popular 20th century
>Wuxia novels seem to have written several decades ago. Louis Cha is still
>alive, but _The Deer and the Cauldron_, which was his last novel, was
>original serialized between 1969 and 1972. Many of his most popular (and
>more typical) novels date from the 40's and 50's. The novel that _Bride
>with White Hair_ is based on dates from the 50's. Perhaps it's
>significant that the only post-1995 Hong Kong wuxia film of any note, _The
>Storm Riders_, is based on a comic book.
>
> Is _The Water Margin_ in that
>>genre, or is that a realistic (you know what I mean) kung fu book?
>
>I've never read it and only know it by reputation. I'm under the
>impression that it's not as extravagant and fantastic as most 20th century
>Wuxia novels are. There have been several films based on it that are
>generally classified as Gongfu Pian rather than Wuxia Pian. Still, it can
>be said to have inspired the genre (and much else -- it's an often-cited
>influence on John Woo's films).
>
>
--
"Somehow I managed to get a job as an apprentice structural engineering
draughtsman, where I was supposed to design buildings which people would
sit in and the roof would not fall down and kill them. A big responsibility
for someone whose total education had come from PLANET STORIES." Bob Shaw
Ian McDowell
Nicoll) wrote:
> Are these books available in English under these titles?
I use one computer for Usenet and Email, another for browsing the web
(yes, I know that's stupid, but I perversely prefer the old Mindspring
dial-up software on this 7100 to the new Earthlink software on my i-book),
so I can't do a search right now. Obviously, the Oxford University Press
editions of the first two volumes of Louis Cha's _Deer and the Cauldron_
are available, and under that title. I believe that another one of his
novels is available in its entirety online, but am blanking on the title.
Either that one or a third is available from Amazon.com as a trade
paperback. The translation is supposed to be pretty bad, though.
As for other 20th Century wuxia authors, erm, I don't think so. Some
version of _The Water Margin_, aka _Outlaws of the Marshes_, probably is.
On a tangent, does anybody know the title of the E. Hoffman Price novel
that was based on the folktale and opera of Princess White Snake? Tsui
Hark used the story as the basis of his wonderful _Green Snake_, one of
the great cinematic fantasies (dodgy special effects and all), which I
believe is playing in NYC this April or May as part of the Tsui Hark
retrospective being put on by the great guys at Subway Cinema (who've
taken up the mantle of Chinese-language cinema in that city, now that
Chinatown's Music Palace is defunct)
Ahasuerus
[snip]
> On a tangent, does anybody know the title of the E. Hoffman Price novel
Price wrote two (rather similar) Chinese-flavored novels in the late
seventies/early eighties, _The Devil Wives of Li Fong_ (1979) and _The
Jade Enchantress_ (1982).
--
Ahasuerus
Ian McDowell
<ahas...@not-for-mail.org> wrote:
I don't _think_ it was either of those. The one I'm thinking of first
appeared in Gerald W. Page's WITCHCRAFT & SORCERY while it was still a
newstand magazine, not long after it was revamped from COVEN 13.
Dr Nuncheon
I had to hunt a bit for my copy of _Outlaws of the Marsh_ (aka Water
Margin, aka All Men are Brothers) - although some of the online
booksellers claim its in print, attempts to order through my local Big
Chain Bookstore never seemed to go through.
_Outlaws_ is definitely not as "wild" as most of the wuxia stuff I've
seen. If you want really wild stuff I'd have to suggest going with
_Journey to the West_. You can either get the 4 volumes or a one-volume
abridged version called _Monkey_. The stuff in there is...pretty over the
top, really, especially in the beginning.
The other Chinese classic is of course _Romance of the Three Kingdoms_,
one of the best things I read in my college Humanities classes. I'm sure
the abridged version is still in print and available reasonably
readily. It's even less wuxia-like than _Water Margin_ though.
J
--
INTERNET SEEMS TO BE FULL OF MILLIONS OF | Jeff Johnston
IDIOTS & LUNATICS ! ! - c2 (ts...@my-deja.com) | jeffj @ io . com
djinn
wrote:
>In article <99vv39$qvd$1...@panix6.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Are these books available in English under these titles?
>
>I had to hunt a bit for my copy of _Outlaws of the Marsh_ (aka Water
>Margin, aka All Men are Brothers) - although some of the online
>booksellers claim its in print, attempts to order through my local Big
>Chain Bookstore never seemed to go through.
>
>_Outlaws_ is definitely not as "wild" as most of the wuxia stuff I've
>seen. If you want really wild stuff I'd have to suggest going with
>_Journey to the West_. You can either get the 4 volumes or a one-volume
>abridged version called _Monkey_. The stuff in there is...pretty over the
>top, really, especially in the beginning.
>
>The other Chinese classic is of course _Romance of the Three Kingdoms_,
>one of the best things I read in my college Humanities classes. I'm sure
>the abridged version is still in print and available reasonably
>readily. It's even less wuxia-like than _Water Margin_ though.
Once again, www.asiapacbooks.com has RTK, Outlaws, Journey and some
other wuxia in print. They have 20 vol of the comic book version of
Return of the Condor Heros.
Lots of other Chinese myth and even some SF too
Ian McDowell
Re: _The Water Margin_. Here's a useful entry from Louis Cha's and John
Minford's Glossary of Terms:
"WATER MARGIN (Shuihuzhuan). This is the classic bandit novel in Chinese
literature, set in the twelfth century, precursor of all Martial Arts
fiction. Several translations are available (Pearl Buck, _All Men Are
Brothers_, 1933; Jackson, _Water Margin_, 1937; Shapiro, _Outlaws of the
Marsh_, 1981), but none of them does justice to the infectious spirit of
the original."
The very concept of the Water Margin, the marshy region that exists beyond
the constraints of law-abiding society, shows that this is a precursor of
Wuxia. A term that crops up a lot in Wuxia and other martial arts fiction
is Jiang Hu, what Cha and Minford call "The Brotherhood of Rivers and
Lakes." This is the metaphorical "River-Lake" that pops up the original
theatrical subtitles to _The Bride with White Hair_, the "Emprise Field"
that's so mysterious in the oblique subs to Tsui Hark's _The Blade_.
Quoting Cha and Minford again: "In earliest times 'river and lake'
referred to the backwaters (originally the Yangtze River and Dongtine
Lake, then by extension the Three Rivers and the Five Lakes) into which
hermits disappeared to live a reclusive life. It became the expression
for the whole underground culture of traditional China, the vagrant outlaw
fraternity, as opposed to the Confucian establishment. Especially in the
South, such people travelled about largely by water (river, lake, canal),
hence the name. It was a world fraught with danger, but with its own
romance and mythology. 'Ten years may a scholar make, But not a veteran
of River and Lake.' Once individuals belonged to this alternative
Brotherhood, there existed between them a tacit understanding and bond.
They had their own code of conduct, their own concepts of honor and
loyalty, their own language and wisdom, their own hierarchy. In the broad
sense River and Lake embraced every 'marginal' and dispossessed element in
society: from the roving swordsman, bodyguard, and Martial Arts adept
(Shifu) to the lowliest traveling performer with his monkey and his
hurdy-gurdy; from the storyteller, the juggler, and the acrobat to the
medicine-man selling patent plasters, the traveling barber, and the
fortune-teller consulting the _Book of Changes_.; from the wandering
Taoist monk selling Talismanic charms to the rebel-leader gathering
together members of some religious sect in his mountain lair. It included
cripples, beggars, tramps, sing-song girls, bawds, pirates,
junkmen-buccaneers, drug-runners, smugglers, bandits, gangsters and
thieves."
Cha and Minford go on to say that, in later usage, a "River and Lake man"
is someone who is "street smart" or "wise in the ways of the world." "The
Beat characters and hobos in Jack Kerouac novels . . . are members of an
American River and Lake Fraternity. In the Australian bush, bushrangers
shared a similar camaraderie of mateship. The French Resistance took to
the 'maquis' or scrub-country. In each case the terrain connoted a way of
life, outside the mainstream of respectable society."
In modern Hong Kong films, the term refers as much to the outsider society
of organized crime as to martial arts; hence the title of the excellent
recent black comedy _Jiang Hu: The Triad Zone_ (K. W. Jeter seems to be as
much a fan of these modern Triad movies as Walter Jon Williams is of the
historical martial arts film).
Elements of fantasy aside, Jiang Hu is one reason why the character played
by Jet Li in _Swordsman 2_ can be seen as a typical Wuxia "knight-errant"
while his Wong-Fei Hung in _Once Upon A Time in China_ is not. Fox, the
drunken Daoist swordsman of the former film (and titular hero of Cha's
novel _The Proud and Laughing Wanderer_) roams the countryside with his
stunning tomboy sidekick Kiddo (played by the gorgeous Michelle Reis --
only Jet's early introduction to the amazing Brigitte Lin makes one
willing to forgive him for not noticing that Kiddo is a babe). He clearly
belongs to Jiang Hu. Wong Sifu just as clearly does not. While the
real-life Wong Fei-Hung may have been a bit of a thug (and the real life
Fong Sai-Yuk, the other great martial arts folk hero played by Jet Li,
surely was), the cinematic Wong is a respected member of the Confucian
establishment, with a thriving medical practical and a famous
clinic/martial arts school in Po Chi Lam. The Governor asks him to train
the militia. He is invited to attend a famous medical conference. He
travels, but doesn't wander, if the distinction makes any sense. He's
Marshall Dillon rather than Paladin or (or Maverick, who's more like a Cha
character).
Speaking of fantasy, while most modern Wuxia novels contain elements of
it, this doesn't mean that every Chinese movie that combines martial arts
and the supernatural is a Wuxia Pian. In Wuxia, the magical elements are
generally confined to supernatural martial arts abilities, even when those
"martial arts" allow heroes to do things that would qualify them for
membership in the X-men or Avengers. The irascible Daoist swordsmen
played by Wu Ma and Jackie Cheung in the lovely _Chinese Ghost Story_
films are fairly typical Wuxia characters, even when they're shooting
fireballs from their palms or burrowing through the ground like Bugs
Bunny. The lissome female ghosts, fearsome Tree Devils, giant tongues,
and Centipede Budhhas of those movies are not. Stories about beautiful
female ghosts or hopping vampires are generally thought as belonging to
separate genres.
William December Starr
ebro...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell) sig quoted:
> "Who will read 423 pages about an unfin-
> ished journey undertaken by mythical crea-
> tures with confusing names? Probably no
> one, but I still say it is wonderful."
> -- Anne Barrett
So who's Anne Barrett and what's she talking about?
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Andrew Plotkin
In _The Matrix_, there was a ten-minute scene where Father Figure
explained it all to Audience Figure.
Also, they were wearing sunglasses and trenchcoats.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Votes count. Count votes.
Ahasuerus
> Mark Jason Dominus <m...@plover.com> wrote:
>> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>>I don't know how non Hughart fans are supposed to figure it out.
>>
>> Nobody laughed when the characters did it in _The Matrix_.
>
> In _The Matrix_, there was a ten-minute scene where Father Figure
> explained it all to Audience Figure.
>
> Also, they were wearing sunglasses and trenchcoats.
A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
the other way around.
--
Ahasuerus
Steinn Sigurdsson
> Re: _The Water Margin_. Here's a useful entry from Louis Cha's and John
> Minford's Glossary of Terms:
> "WATER MARGIN (Shuihuzhuan). This is the classic bandit novel in Chinese
> literature, set in the twelfth century, precursor of all Martial Arts
This is the same tale that became a rather good TV series is it not?
Shown on the BBC (dubbed IIRC) in the late 70s or early 80s.
Good fun.
Ian McDowell
<ahas...@not-for-mail.org> wrote:
>A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
>performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
>the other way around.
True. In a culturally-relative sense, CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON may
be more akin to SF than fantasy. Several Hong Kong and Taiwan-born
Chinese of my acquaintance, who are more conversant with the literary
Wuxia genre than I am (well, they can read Chinese and I can't!), make a
pretty firm distinction between the type of Wuxia, a la CROUCHING TIGER
HIDDEN DRAGON or THE BRIDE WITH WHITE or Cha's THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON,
in which the only fantastic element is "super gongfu", and the kind, a la
ZU, WARRIORS OF THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN and A CHINESE GHOST STORY 2 (more of an
out-and-out Wuxia movie than the others in the series), that brings in
demons and spirits and hopping vampires and gods. They differentiate
between Jet Li making twenty-foot leaps or Brigitte Lin projecting an
invisible force from her palm and Lam Ching-Ying (the "One-Eyebrow Priest"
of the MR. VAMPIRE series and Michelle Yeoh's real-life sifu) making
Daoist incantations and casting spells with yellow paper, sticky rice and
chicken blood.
In a sense, a lot of Wuxia novels and films are "wild talent" stories, but
are the product of a world view that says one can attain super-powers
through hard work and mental discipline rather than being born a mutant.
Now, I don't think there's any such thing as Chi (internal energy) and I
damn well know there isn't any such thing as qigong (Weightless Leaping),
but Hell, in the real world there's no such thing as telepathy,
telekinesis, teleportation or John W. Campbell's beloved Psi, and more to
the point, there's really no way there _could_ be; they're all as
impossible as fairies and dragons. Yet we make a distinction between the
kind of fantasy (which we call science fiction) that involves the former
and that (which we call fantasy) that involves the latter.
Apparently, Chinese fans of the Wuxia genre do something similar.
Jo Walton
ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu "Steinn Sigurdsson" writes:
Yes, it's the same one. Yes, it was good fun. One of the few things on
TV that I ever really liked. It also had notably good "girls' parts",
women in strong roles having fun and actually achieving things and using
weapons. And the Lin Chung character was _beautiful_.
There was a David Weir translation of the original epic with a photo cover
from the series, which I used to own.
(Could probably still sing the theme music in either English or the
original Japanese, come to that...)
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
Locus Recommended First Novel: *THE KING'S PEACE* out now from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Sion Arrowsmith
>A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
>performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
>the other way around.
The other way round as in extraordinary deeds performing extraordinary
people, or is one of them supposed to be "ordinary"? And if so, which
one?
(Best guess is the former, due to lack of ability to think of good
examples of fantasy portraying extraordinary people performing
ordinary deeds.)
--
\S -- si...@chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
___ | "Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other"
\X/ | -- Arthur C. Clarke
her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump
Ethan A Merritt
Sion Arrowsmith <si...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Ahasuerus <ahas...@not-for-mail.org> wrote:
>>A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
>>performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
>>the other way around.
>
>The other way round as in extraordinary deeds performing extraordinary
>people, or is one of them supposed to be "ordinary"? And if so, which one?
<em voice="foghorn.leghorn">
It was a joke, son. I say it was a joke.
</em>
>(Best guess is the former, due to lack of ability to think of good examples
> of fantasy portraying extraordinary people performing ordinary deeds.)
I am reminded of a poem (by Yevtushenko?) that begins "There are no
uninteresting people in the world". Aren't all people extraordinary
upon closer inspection, and aren't their deeds mostly ordinary?
Particulary in fantasy, where ridding the garden of gnomes may be
a routine household chore (HP2) and extraordinary magical talent may
consist of a flair with kitchen tasks (Song of Sorcery)...
Putting aside such quibbles, however, there may still be some examples
of fantasy dealing with extraordinary people performing ordinary deeds.
_Tehanu_?
_An Interior Life_?
_Juniper, Gentian, & Rosemary_? (or _Tam Lin_ for that matter)
Ethan A Merritt
Dorothy J Heydt
Ethan A Merritt <mer...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>I am reminded of a poem (by Yevtushenko?) that begins "There are no
>uninteresting people in the world".
Hm, he didn't live in my neck of the woods.
Aren't all people extraordinary
>upon closer inspection, and aren't their deeds mostly ordinary?
>Particulary in fantasy, where ridding the garden of gnomes may be
>a routine household chore (HP2) and extraordinary magical talent may
>consist of a flair with kitchen tasks (Song of Sorcery)...
I don't recognize either of these titles. Please expand "HP2"
and give authors' names?
>Putting aside such quibbles, however, there may still be some examples
>of fantasy dealing with extraordinary people performing ordinary deeds.
>_Tehanu_?
>_An Interior Life_?
Nitpick, _The_.
I dunno, though. I think Sue's pretty ordinary, and she would
not have been worth reading about if she hadn't developed a
fantasy life one day while confronted with the housework.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Ahasuerus
> Ahasuerus <ahas...@not-for-mail.org> wrote:
>>A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
>>performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
>>the other way around.
>
> The other way round as in extraordinary deeds performing extraordinary
> people, or is one of them supposed to be "ordinary"? And if so, which
Oh, it was a joke :)
More seriously, one of the oldest rules of speculative fiction writing is
to either put "normal" people in abnormal surroundings *or* put
extraordinary people in normal surroundings, IOW don't put extraordinary
people in an extraordinary setting since then you'll lose reader
identification. The trick, of course, is to know when to break the rule :)
--
Ahasuerus
Ethan A Merritt
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <9acukf$69e$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>,
>Ethan A Merritt <mer...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I am reminded of a poem (by Yevtushenko?) that begins "There are no
>>uninteresting people in the world".
>
>Hm, he didn't live in my neck of the woods.
>
>Aren't all people extraordinary
>>upon closer inspection, and aren't their deeds mostly ordinary?
>>Particulary in fantasy, where ridding the garden of gnomes may be
>>a routine household chore (HP2) and extraordinary magical talent may
>>consist of a flair with kitchen tasks (Song of Sorcery)...
>
>I don't recognize either of these titles. Please expand "HP2"
>and give authors' names?
Sorry. 'HP2' = 2nd Harry Potter book (_Harry Potter and the Chamber of
Secrets_) by J K Rowling. It's the weakest of the 4 Potter books to
date, but it happens to have a scene in which Harry, visiting a large
family of wizards, learns that one of the household chores assigned to
the kids is regular de-gnoming of the kitchen garden.
_Song of Sorcery_ is by Elizabeth Scarborough, and is set in a
fantasy world where wizards are each capable of performing only an
idiosyncratic subset of magic. The heroine, as it happens, is
limited to kitchen/household magic, a limitation she becomes rather
adept in working around. It's all rather tongue-in-cheek.
Ethan A Merritt
Rachel Brown
> They differentiate
> between Jet Li making twenty-foot leaps or Brigitte Lin projecting an
> invisible force from her palm and Lam Ching-Ying (the "One-Eyebrow
Priest"
> of the MR. VAMPIRE series and Michelle Yeoh's real-life sifu) making
> Daoist incantations and casting spells with yellow paper, sticky rice and
> chicken blood.
This makes perfect sense to me. The first is an exaggeration of or
extrapolation from real phenomena, and the second is plain impossible--
exactly like sf vs fantasy.
That is, no amount of chickens and sticky rice will, in the real world,
produce anything but a good meal. But a skilled martial artist can perform
physical feats that look close to impossible, or hit you so hard and fast
that if you didn't know better, you'd swear they were projecting an
invisible force from their palm. (And if you _don't_ know better, you go
around insisting that certain real-life people can do "no-touch knock-outs"
via ki projection.)
Regarding a previous post I neglected to save, what are some of Gong Li's
better Hong Kong films? I had no idea she did anything but elegantly
depressing art-house movies.
Rachel
Dorothy J Heydt
Martin Wisse
wrote:
Oh, I could've happily read a version of that book without the fantasy
elements if it was done slightly more realistic. That is, the troubles
Sue goes trhough in the real world are handled slightly too slickly for
my tastes; she changes somewhat to quickly from hausfrau to
superwoman...
Martin Wisse
--
I took the points most people spend on common sense and spent it on
body and luck.
-James Nicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
Martin Wisse <mwi...@ad-astra.demon.nl> wrote:
>On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:07:02 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <9acukf$69e$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu>,
>>Ethan A Merritt <mer...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>>>_An Interior Life_?
>>
>>Nitpick, _The_.
>>
>>I dunno, though. I think Sue's pretty ordinary, and she would
>>not have been worth reading about if she hadn't developed a
>>fantasy life one day while confronted with the housework.
>
>Oh, I could've happily read a version of that book without the fantasy
>elements if it was done slightly more realistic. That is, the troubles
>Sue goes trhough in the real world are handled slightly too slickly for
>my tastes; she changes somewhat to quickly from hausfrau to
>superwoman...
Oh, indeed. As several people have pointed out, there's the REAL
fantasy.... that one could somehow get a grip on oneself and get
one's housework all caught up.
Do I need to mention that this never happens? That's why it's
fantasy.
*sigh*
Richard Horton
<ahas...@not-for-mail.org> wrote:
>Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>> Mark Jason Dominus <m...@plover.com> wrote:
>>> Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>>>>I don't know how non Hughart fans are supposed to figure it out.
>>>
>>> Nobody laughed when the characters did it in _The Matrix_.
>>
>> In _The Matrix_, there was a ten-minute scene where Father Figure
>> explained it all to Audience Figure.
>>
>> Also, they were wearing sunglasses and trenchcoats.
>
>A work of art is considered fantasy if it describes extraordinary people
>performing extraordinary deeds. It is considered science fiction if it is
>the other way around.
Extraordinary deeds performing extraordinary people?
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Ian McDowell
title of a Michelle Yeoh movie) launched a flurry of no-shadow kicks and
said:
>Regarding a previous post I neglected to save, what are some of Gong Li's
>better Hong Kong films? I had no idea she did anything but elegantly
>depressing art-house movies.
I've seen two. In DEMI-GODS AND SEMI-DEVILS, aka THE DRAGON CHRONICLES,
aka MAIDENS OF HEAVENLY MOUNTAIN, she and Brigitte Lin and Brigitte Lin
(Brigitte has two roles) are Immortals vying for, erm, something or other
-- it's very confusing. The equally stunning Sharla Cheung Man is a
mischevious thief who get caught up in the incomprehensible plot. It's
based on a Louis Cha novel and is quite fun and pretty, despite not making
much sense. At the end, Li and one of the Brigitte's have the most
elaborate aerial dogfit (erm, catfight) I've ever seen in a Hong Kong
film. Plus, they shoot rays from their eyes! Much more fun than playing
a nobly suffeing peasant.
In Stephen Chiao's GOD OF GAMBLERS 3: BACK TO SHANGHAI, Chiao, who doesn't
play the God of Gamblers (that would be the absent Chow Yun-Fat), gets
sent back in time to 1930's Shanghai (and more specifically, to the milieu
of the old Chow Yun-Fat tv serial THE BUND, which is referenced). There
he meets Gong Li, a bitchy socialite, and her sweet but feeble-minded
sister. Bitchy Gong is murdered (people often die violently in
lighthearted Hong Kong romantic comedies) and Chiao romances the childlike
one. He also founds the first McDonald's, and does a delightful and
extremely elaborate jitterbug with the sweet-but-feebleminded Gong, to the
tune of a popular 50's Cantonese song that was originally called (I think)
"Sukiyaki" and here is all about Roast Pork Buns (which is what Chiao
sells in the 1930's McDonalds). Eventually, the God of Guns (Chow
Yun-Fat's GOD OF GAMBLERS sidekick, played by real-life gangster Charles
Heung, the Michael Corleone of Hong Kong) must lead a commando force back
in time to save Chiao and Gong from the pesky Japanese. Merriment,
sentiment and a high death toll ensue.
Gong also stars in A TERRACOTTA WARRIOR, a Hong Kong film in which her old
Mainland director/lover Zhang Yimou plays a role more typical of Jet Li or
Yuen Biao: a Royal Guardman in Ancient China who falls in love with the
Emperor's favorite concubine and is turned into, you guessed it, a
Terracotta warrior. In the 1930's, he's restored to human form and meets
a beautiful actress, Gong, who is the reincarnaton of his ancient love and
who is starring in a Chinese version of GONE WITH THE WIND. Sadly, this
one isn't available on import DVD (at least not from Hong Kong; Mainland
and Tawainese DVD's are hard to get from US importers and usually have
inferior sound), so I haven't seen it.