Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Russians don't say "black hole"
830 views
Skip to first unread message
Christian Weisgerber
Apr 23, 2013, 4:04:00 PM4/23/13
to
Probably since the 1980s or so I have known that Russians do not
use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
"black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
I supposed I learned this fact in some pop science or, more likely,
science fiction context. I also remember coming across it again
in a SF novel when I already knew it.
Of course, nowadays if you want to know what the Russians call a black
hole, you just go to the Wikipedia article and follow the link to the
Russian version.
Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
(There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
down where that myth started?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
"black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
I supposed I learned this fact in some pop science or, more likely,
science fiction context. I also remember coming across it again
in a SF novel when I already knew it.
Of course, nowadays if you want to know what the Russians call a black
hole, you just go to the Wikipedia article and follow the link to the
Russian version.
Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
(There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
down where that myth started?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Robert Bannister
Apr 23, 2013, 11:35:05 PM4/23/13
to
and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
--
Robert Bannister
danny burstein
Apr 24, 2013, 12:11:01 AM4/24/13
to
In <atp279...@mid.individual.net> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
>>
>> Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
>> (There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
>> that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
>>
>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>> down where that myth started?
>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version
>>
>> Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
>> (There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
>> that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
>>
>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>> down where that myth started?
>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
of that Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
- the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
then made a point to catch it about five years ago
when it showed on something or another, and I still
don't remember diddly squat about it..
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Dorothy J Heydt
Apr 24, 2013, 12:18:26 AM4/24/13
to
In article <atp279...@mid.individual.net>,
It depends on how your mind runs. When I see "black hole" I
think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
David Goldfarb
Apr 24, 2013, 12:19:30 AM4/24/13
to
In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
That's where I came across that claim.
--
David Goldfarb |"Feeling smug about one's opinions is the very
goldf...@gmail.com | lifeblood of the Net."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dawn Friedman
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>down where that myth started?
In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
>So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>down where that myth started?
Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
That's where I came across that claim.
--
David Goldfarb |"Feeling smug about one's opinions is the very
goldf...@gmail.com | lifeblood of the Net."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dawn Friedman
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Apr 24, 2013, 1:04:24 AM4/24/13
to
In article <MLqry...@kithrup.com>,
Now I'm wondering if at the time they had "The Black Hole of Calcutta"
in the back of their minds.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
in the back of their minds.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apr 24, 2013, 3:22:16 AM4/24/13
to
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version
> of that Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
Quite unsurprisingly, Чёрная дыра according to wikipedia. But I have no
> One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version
> of that Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
idea if it has ever been aired (distributed, whatever) in Russia.
I am not fully versed in Russian obscenities, but IMHO чёрная дыра had
(before GR) about the same connotations as in English - unpleasant ones
if you think too much about it, but it's not a fixed collocation.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Brian M. Scott
Apr 24, 2013, 6:34:53 AM4/24/13
to
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 04:19:30 GMT, David Goldfarb
<gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote in
<news:MLqs0...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:
> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>down where that myth started?
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
Peter Erwin, writing a comment to Language Log
(<http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=352>), says:
"Frozen star" is a translation of an early Russian term
for black holes, based on one interpretation of how a
massive star might collapse and form a black hole. The
term fell out of favor partly because it only described
the system from one reference frame, and was thus
potentially misleading, and partly because it focused
too much on (one particular) formation mechanism, not
on the resulting object.
He has a PhD in astronomy from Univ. of Wisc. - Madison and
was at the Max-Planck-Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics
from 2005 at least through 2011, and the 'frozen star'
interpretation did exist, so I'm inclined to think that this
is probably accurate. If so, the Russian connection is
real, but not the scatological basis for it.
Brian
<gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote in
<news:MLqs0...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:
> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>down where that myth started?
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
(<http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=352>), says:
"Frozen star" is a translation of an early Russian term
for black holes, based on one interpretation of how a
massive star might collapse and form a black hole. The
term fell out of favor partly because it only described
the system from one reference frame, and was thus
potentially misleading, and partly because it focused
too much on (one particular) formation mechanism, not
on the resulting object.
He has a PhD in astronomy from Univ. of Wisc. - Madison and
was at the Max-Planck-Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics
from 2005 at least through 2011, and the 'frozen star'
interpretation did exist, so I'm inclined to think that this
is probably accurate. If so, the Russian connection is
real, but not the scatological basis for it.
Brian
J. Clarke
Apr 24, 2013, 8:18:04 AM4/24/13
to
In article <atp279...@mid.individual.net>, rob...@clubtelco.com
says...
When I was at Ohio State, there was a guest lecture by somebody or other
(I forget who but he was a Big Name at the time) entitled "Are Black
Holes Excitable". Various activist groups of course started picketing
this "racist" lecture. The dean solved the problem by arranging with
the speaker and the picketers to give them a closed session preview and
if after hearing it they still thought it offensive then it would be
cancelled. The picketers agreed to this, attended the preview, and with
the picketers all safely asleep, the scheduled lecture went off without
a hitch.
says...
(I forget who but he was a Big Name at the time) entitled "Are Black
Holes Excitable". Various activist groups of course started picketing
this "racist" lecture. The dean solved the problem by arranging with
the speaker and the picketers to give them a closed session preview and
if after hearing it they still thought it offensive then it would be
cancelled. The picketers agreed to this, attended the preview, and with
the picketers all safely asleep, the scheduled lecture went off without
a hitch.
James Silverton
Apr 24, 2013, 8:21:25 AM4/24/13
to
could have any vulgar meaning is quite new to me and it seems a
perfectly good term.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apr 24, 2013, 9:45:11 AM4/24/13
to
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
> IMHO чёрная дыра had
> (before GR) about the same connotations as in English - unpleasant ones
> if you think too much about it, but it's not a fixed collocation.
>
I consulted the Russian National Corpus - though it is not the biggest,
> IMHO чёрная дыра had
> (before GR) about the same connotations as in English - unpleasant ones
> if you think too much about it, but it's not a fixed collocation.
>
neither the most representative, it contains enough older texts and has
sufficient annotation.
Short summary:
very surprisingly, there is a HUGE peak in relative frequency around
1980 (30 ppm), then a decrease in the years 1985-2000 (5ppm), then again
gradual increase up to 15 ppm until current texts.
1940-1970 is quite low, 2ppm, there is another surprising peak in
1938-1939 (5ppm - this could be a statistical error), about 2 ppm
1900-1938, and vanishingly small before 1900.
A full analysis would be too demanding and difficult, thus just some
observations:
up to 1950, the meaning is literal - hole in the floor, hole in the
uniform (of a dead soldier), a cave etc... - mind you, this is
mostly from (classical) Russian literature, which would not contain
colloquial and obscene slang. But IMHO they would not use the expression
if it were a well known swearword.
There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
The first astronomical usage is in М. П. Бронштейн's Солнечное вещество
(1936).
Since 1970, the astronomical meaning is getting more common - mostly in
popular science journals and sci-fi works.
Since the '80s, only the astronomical meaning is present, and since
'90s, metaphorical usage appears (black hole of the economy,
agricultural black hole, black hole in Chechnia,...), and in quite
contemporary texts, sexual meaning sometimes appears. But that could be
because of decreasing self-censorship of the authors and the liberties
in modern literature...
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apr 24, 2013, 9:47:59 AM4/24/13
to
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
and following myself...
> I consulted the Russian National Corpus - though it is not the biggest,
> neither the most representative, it contains enough older texts and has
> sufficient annotation.
>
"коллапсар" is found only in 4 documents, all from 1975-1976, all from
popular science magazines.
and following myself...
> I consulted the Russian National Corpus - though it is not the biggest,
> neither the most representative, it contains enough older texts and has
> sufficient annotation.
>
popular science magazines.
Howard Brazee
Apr 24, 2013, 9:52:10 AM4/24/13
to
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:35:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
Kids can find most any word or phrase to be able to turn into a dirty
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
joke. Some people grow past that.
--
Anybody who agrees with one side all of the time or disagrees with the
other side all of the time is equally guilty of letting others do
their thinking for them.
James Silverton
Apr 24, 2013, 9:58:24 AM4/24/13
to
On 4/24/2013 9:47 AM, garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>
> and following myself...
>
>
>> I consulted the Russian National Corpus - though it is not the biggest,
>> neither the most representative, it contains enough older texts and has
>> sufficient annotation.
>>
>
> "коллапсар" is found only in 4 documents, all from 1975-1976, all from
> popular science magazines.
>
This induced me to search Google (English) for collapsar and I got 50000
> garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>
> and following myself...
>
>
>> I consulted the Russian National Corpus - though it is not the biggest,
>> neither the most representative, it contains enough older texts and has
>> sufficient annotation.
>>
>
> "коллапсар" is found only in 4 documents, all from 1975-1976, all from
> popular science magazines.
>
hits.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Apr 24, 2013, 11:42:19 AM4/24/13
to
On 2013-04-24 09:45:11 -0400,
--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466291532/
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
> There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
> There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1466291532/
Jim Smith
Apr 24, 2013, 2:07:36 PM4/24/13
to
In message <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>, Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> writes
Has anyone done "In Russia, black hole say you" yet?
--
Jim Smith
<na...@mips.inka.de> writes
--
Jim Smith
Greg Goss
Apr 24, 2013, 2:22:30 PM4/24/13
to
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version
>of that Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
>- the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> don't remember diddly squat about it..
Be thankful.
>One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version
>of that Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
>- the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> don't remember diddly squat about it..
--
I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
wouldn't have rusted like this.
Greg Goss
Apr 24, 2013, 2:26:00 PM4/24/13
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
>
>It depends on how your mind runs. When I see "black hole" I
>think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
According to the source that Christian and I are both remembering, the
>>I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>>and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
>
>It depends on how your mind runs. When I see "black hole" I
>think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
word (in Russian) refered to an infected prostitute's moneymaker, then
back-generalized to prostitutes in general.
Rod Speed
Apr 24, 2013, 3:01:57 PM4/24/13
to
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in message
news:atp279...@mid.individual.net...
on the fact that nothing comes out of one, that's why its black.
Quadibloc
Apr 24, 2013, 4:30:21 PM4/24/13
to
> garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
>
> > There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> > Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> > be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> > hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
>
> Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
Possibly, as according to Wikipedia, he has the right initials:
>
> > There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> > Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> > be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> > hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
>
> Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
Константи́н Серге́евич Станисла́вский.
However, also according to Wikipedia, he passed away in 1938, having
been born in 1863 - and so, if he had a lengthy career in the U.S., he
would not have been still in the Soviet Union in 1938.
John Savard
Robert Carnegie
Apr 24, 2013, 4:39:22 PM4/24/13
to
On Wednesday, 24 April 2013 06:04:24 UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Now I'm wondering if at the time they had
> "The Black Hole of Calcutta" in the back of
> their minds.
Wasn't that something that happened to other people?
> Now I'm wondering if at the time they had
> "The Black Hole of Calcutta" in the back of
> their minds.
But there was <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh!_Calcutta!>
which is nearly the same. And the title is a dirty joke
in French, as explained.
O'Calcutta appears to be a restaurant located in
Salt Lake City, India. Irish cuisine isn't evident
as far as I can tell from thousands of miles away.
Steve Coltrin
Apr 24, 2013, 8:43:32 PM4/24/13
to
begin fnord
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
Pournelle full of shit? Say it ain't so, Joe.
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
J. Clarke
Apr 24, 2013, 9:43:53 PM4/24/13
to
In article <m2mwsne...@kelutral.omcl.org>, spco...@omcl.org says...
for those things. I haven't run Neko in ages. He's asleep on my mouse
pointer now.
>
> begin fnord
> gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>
> > In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> > Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> > like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> > hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> > That's where I came across that claim.
>
> Pournelle full of shit? Say it ain't so, Joe.
Apropos of nothing I like your icon or whatever the technical term is
> begin fnord
> gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes:
>
> > In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> > Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> > like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> > hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> > That's where I came across that claim.
>
> Pournelle full of shit? Say it ain't so, Joe.
for those things. I haven't run Neko in ages. He's asleep on my mouse
pointer now.
Robert Bannister
Apr 24, 2013, 10:40:08 PM4/24/13
to
met it, my first thought was "You've got to be joking".
--
Robert Bannister
David DeLaney
Apr 25, 2013, 12:32:09 AM4/25/13
to
Jim Smith <usen...@ponder-stibbons.com> wrote:
>Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> writes
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
>Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> writes
>>So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>down where that myth started?
>
>Has anyone done "In Russia, black hole say you" yet?
No no, that's "In Bhadnisia, black hole say you {CRASH!} o hai thunederbolt!".
>>sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>down where that myth started?
>
>Has anyone done "In Russia, black hole say you" yet?
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ahasuerus
Apr 25, 2013, 12:52:27 AM4/25/13
to
On Apr 24, 12:19 am, goldf...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) wrote:
> In article <kl6pfg$j7...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
them "frozen stars", because the phrase "black hole" in Russian is an
obscenity that means exactly what you think it does." However, the
very next sentence reads "(I am told that because the term black hole
is common in western astronomy, some Russians are beginning to use it
in their own literature, with what effect on lay sensibilities I don't
know.)".
The usage is confirmed in N. I. Shakura's "Disk Model of Gas Accretion
on a Relativistic Star in a Close Binary System" (Soviet Astronomy,
1973, vol. 16, p. 756 -- see https://scholar.google.com): "An object
of this kind is frequently referred to in the literature as a frozen
or collapsed star, a collapsar, a gravitational tomb, or a black
hole." The rest of the article uses the terms "collapsed star" and
"collapsar" interchangeably.
Now, it so happens that Pournelle's article in _Black Holes_ ("Black
Holes and Cosmic Sensors") is based on his "A Step Farther Out" column
in the December 1974 issue of _Galaxy_. Scanning the text of the
latter, I see no references to "frozen stars" (even though he mentions
Russian scientists), but there is a discussion of censorship, which is
mostly absent from the book version of the article. The reason for the
discussion is that, as Pournelle wrote in _Galaxy_: "As I write this,
California courts are trying to decide whether the police have the
power to seize copies of the film "Deep Throat" and my friend Earl
Kemp may be headed for jail due to violation of censorship laws. Thus
I am tempted to write about censorship. But since this is a science
column and not a political essay I don't suppose I'll be able to.
However, one should never underestimate the ingenuity of a
columnist..."
So, putting the available evidence together, I wouldn't be surprised
if someone had approached Pournelle between December 1974 and early
1978 and said: "Hey, Jerry, speaking of black holes, censorship and
obscenity laws, did you know that Russians don't use the term "black
hole" because..."
> In article <kl6pfg$j7...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> >sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> >first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> >the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> >down where that myth started?
>
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
Yes, on page 21 Pournelle writes: "Incidentally, the Russians call
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> >sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> >first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> >the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> >down where that myth started?
>
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
them "frozen stars", because the phrase "black hole" in Russian is an
obscenity that means exactly what you think it does." However, the
very next sentence reads "(I am told that because the term black hole
is common in western astronomy, some Russians are beginning to use it
in their own literature, with what effect on lay sensibilities I don't
know.)".
The usage is confirmed in N. I. Shakura's "Disk Model of Gas Accretion
on a Relativistic Star in a Close Binary System" (Soviet Astronomy,
1973, vol. 16, p. 756 -- see https://scholar.google.com): "An object
of this kind is frequently referred to in the literature as a frozen
or collapsed star, a collapsar, a gravitational tomb, or a black
hole." The rest of the article uses the terms "collapsed star" and
"collapsar" interchangeably.
Now, it so happens that Pournelle's article in _Black Holes_ ("Black
Holes and Cosmic Sensors") is based on his "A Step Farther Out" column
in the December 1974 issue of _Galaxy_. Scanning the text of the
latter, I see no references to "frozen stars" (even though he mentions
Russian scientists), but there is a discussion of censorship, which is
mostly absent from the book version of the article. The reason for the
discussion is that, as Pournelle wrote in _Galaxy_: "As I write this,
California courts are trying to decide whether the police have the
power to seize copies of the film "Deep Throat" and my friend Earl
Kemp may be headed for jail due to violation of censorship laws. Thus
I am tempted to write about censorship. But since this is a science
column and not a political essay I don't suppose I'll be able to.
However, one should never underestimate the ingenuity of a
columnist..."
So, putting the available evidence together, I wouldn't be surprised
if someone had approached Pournelle between December 1974 and early
1978 and said: "Hey, Jerry, speaking of black holes, censorship and
obscenity laws, did you know that Russians don't use the term "black
hole" because..."
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Apr 25, 2013, 1:22:00 AM4/25/13
to
methods did, and Lee Strasberg taught the Stanislavski Method.
Ahasuerus
Apr 25, 2013, 2:46:24 AM4/25/13
to
On Apr 25, 1:22 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> On 2013-04-24 16:30:21 -0400, Quadibloc said:
> > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> >> On 2013-04-24 09:45:11 -0400,
> >> garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
> >>
> >>> There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> >>> Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> >>> be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> >>> hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
> >>
> >> Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
> >
> > Possibly, as according to Wikipedia, he has the right initials:
> > Константи́н Серге́евич Станисла́вский.
>
> > However, also according to Wikipedia, he passed away in 1938, having
> > been born in 1863 - and so, if he had a lengthy career in the U.S., he
> > would not have been still in the Soviet Union in 1938.
>
> Ah, I was misremembering -- he never did get to America, but his
> methods did, and Lee Strasberg taught the Stanislavski Method.
Stanislavsky and his theater toured America between January 1923 and
> On 2013-04-24 16:30:21 -0400, Quadibloc said:
> > On Apr 24, 9:42 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> >> On 2013-04-24 09:45:11 -0400,
> >> garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
> >>
> >>> There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> >>> Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> >>> be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> >>> hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
> >>
> >> Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
> >
> > Possibly, as according to Wikipedia, he has the right initials:
> > Константи́н Серге́евич Станисла́вский.
>
> > However, also according to Wikipedia, he passed away in 1938, having
> > been born in 1863 - and so, if he had a lengthy career in the U.S., he
> > would not have been still in the Soviet Union in 1938.
>
> Ah, I was misremembering -- he never did get to America, but his
> methods did, and Lee Strasberg taught the Stanislavski Method.
April 1924 to extraordinary acclaim. Within 15 years there were eleven
American acting studios based on Stanislavsky's "system", largely
headed by Russian/East European immigrants (there is a list in Mel
Gordon, _Stanislavsky in America: An Actor's Workbook_, pp. xiii-xiv)
Brian M. Scott
Apr 25, 2013, 3:32:58 AM4/25/13
to
On Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:40:08 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
<news:atrjc8...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> On 24/04/13 12:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <atp279...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
[...]
>>> I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty
>>> disgusting in English too and knowing scientists'
>>> humour, it was probably intended to be.
I very much doubt it. The term is a very apt metaphor when
taken literally.
>> It depends on how your mind runs. When I see "black
>> hole" I think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
> So do I /these days/ because I've got used to the term,
> but when I first met it, my first thought was "You've got
> to be joking".
I find that quite extraordinary: I've never heard or seen
the term used in the scatological sense except in
Pournelle's erroneous explanation of the old Russian term.
Brian
<rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in
<news:atrjc8...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> On 24/04/13 12:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <atp279...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>> I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty
>>> disgusting in English too and knowing scientists'
>>> humour, it was probably intended to be.
taken literally.
>> It depends on how your mind runs. When I see "black
>> hole" I think of a collapsar, not anything anatomical.
> So do I /these days/ because I've got used to the term,
> but when I first met it, my first thought was "You've got
> to be joking".
the term used in the scatological sense except in
Pournelle's erroneous explanation of the old Russian term.
Brian
Christian Weisgerber
Apr 25, 2013, 12:54:44 PM4/25/13
to
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> don't remember diddly squat about it..
It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> don't remember diddly squat about it..
ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
Somebody invested a lot of money there. They assembled a big-name
cast. Big special effects. They got John Barry for the score.
It's just the sort of big dumb object / lost artifact story I have
a soft spot for. It has a friggin' black hole! And yet, the movie
never gels. The actors sleepwalk through their roles, the story
never manages to engage.
Alan Dean Foster's novelization didn't manage to improve on it
either, as far as I remember.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
James Nicoll
Apr 25, 2013, 2:50:44 PM4/25/13
to
In article <klbn4k$2sv7$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Wasn't that a recurring issue with Disney films of this era?
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>>
>> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
>> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
>> when it showed on something or another, and I still
>> don't remember diddly squat about it..
>
>It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
>ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
>s
>danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>>
>> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
>> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
>> when it showed on something or another, and I still
>> don't remember diddly squat about it..
>
>It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
>ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
Wasn't that a recurring issue with Disney films of this era?
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
John F. Eldredge
Apr 25, 2013, 4:51:18 PM4/25/13
to
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:22:16 +0000, garabik-news-2005-05 wrote:
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version of that
>> Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
> Quite unsurprisingly, Чёрная дыра according to wikipedia. But I have no
> idea if it has ever been aired (distributed, whatever) in Russia. I am
> not fully versed in Russian obscenities, but IMHO чёрная дыра had
> (before GR) about the same connotations as in English - unpleasant ones
> if you think too much about it, but it's not a fixed collocation.
Given how human minds work, any phrase can be given a sexual and/or
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> One data point might be to find out what the Russkie version of that
>> Disney flick from 1979 was called. Anyone have access?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
>
> Quite unsurprisingly, Чёрная дыра according to wikipedia. But I have no
> idea if it has ever been aired (distributed, whatever) in Russia. I am
> not fully versed in Russian obscenities, but IMHO чёрная дыра had
> (before GR) about the same connotations as in English - unpleasant ones
> if you think too much about it, but it's not a fixed collocation.
scatological interpretation if you put enough effort into it.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly
is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
J. Clarke
Apr 25, 2013, 8:35:16 PM4/25/13
to
In article <klbtu3$4ql$1...@reader1.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com says...
would never recover. While it's making huge money now, it's lost
something. The success is there but the magic has gone away.
>
> In article <klbn4k$2sv7$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
> >>
> >> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> >> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> >> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> >> don't remember diddly squat about it..
> >
> >It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
> >ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
> >s
>
> Wasn't that a recurring issue with Disney films of this era?
There was a period there after Walt died when it looked like the studio
> In article <klbn4k$2sv7$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
> >>
> >> - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> >> then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> >> when it showed on something or another, and I still
> >> don't remember diddly squat about it..
> >
> >It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
> >ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
> >s
>
> Wasn't that a recurring issue with Disney films of this era?
would never recover. While it's making huge money now, it's lost
something. The success is there but the magic has gone away.
Kip Williams
Apr 25, 2013, 8:39:10 PM4/25/13
to
Howard Brazee wrote, On 4/24/13 9:52 AM:
Kip W
rasfw
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:35:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>> and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
>
> Kids can find most any word or phrase to be able to turn into a dirty
> joke. Some people grow past that.
Uh, huh huh huh. You used language.
> <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>
>> I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
>> and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
>
> Kids can find most any word or phrase to be able to turn into a dirty
> joke. Some people grow past that.
Kip W
rasfw
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Apr 25, 2013, 9:05:27 PM4/25/13
to
In article <MPG.2be395cd2...@news.newsguy.com>,
After Walt died, the studio *did* recover though it took a while.
"The Little Mermaid", for instance, is arguably better than any feature
made under Disney's tenure. Then they hit *another* trough.
Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the kind
of solid programmers the live action movies used to be as well as some
"leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius & Ferb and
Kim Possible. The Marvel unit is doing well. "Twisted" was a good
channeling of the TLM era. Pixar is Pixar..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
"The Little Mermaid", for instance, is arguably better than any feature
made under Disney's tenure. Then they hit *another* trough.
Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the kind
of solid programmers the live action movies used to be as well as some
"leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius & Ferb and
Kim Possible. The Marvel unit is doing well. "Twisted" was a good
channeling of the TLM era. Pixar is Pixar..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David DeLaney
Apr 25, 2013, 11:58:24 PM4/25/13
to
On 25 Apr 2013 20:51:18 GMT, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>Given how human minds work, any phrase can be given a sexual and/or
>scatological interpretation if you put enough effort into it.
ITYM "When correctly viewed, EVERYTHING is lewd!"
>Given how human minds work, any phrase can be given a sexual and/or
>scatological interpretation if you put enough effort into it.
Dave, why, I could tell you things about J.M. Barrie ... or Charles Dodgson,
now that guy's scary!
Tim McDaniel
Apr 26, 2013, 3:07:00 PM4/26/13
to
In article <atu26n...@mid.individual.net>,
While I love the show and it has had some classic moments, I think it
has reached its lifetime in terms of good novel ideas. Though it
could be energized if they coupld wake up their music composer to do
more than one noticable song in every 7 episodes or so. (Can it
really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
classic-musical-style production number? It's gotta be easier than
"OK, what musical style haven't we used yet?". The current "serve up
another generic rock-ish/action movie-ish bland tune" is not serving
them well.)
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the kind
>of solid programmers the live action movies used to be as well as some
>"leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius & Ferb and
>Kim Possible.
_Phineas and Ferb_.
>Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the kind
>of solid programmers the live action movies used to be as well as some
>"leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius & Ferb and
>Kim Possible.
While I love the show and it has had some classic moments, I think it
has reached its lifetime in terms of good novel ideas. Though it
could be energized if they coupld wake up their music composer to do
more than one noticable song in every 7 episodes or so. (Can it
really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
classic-musical-style production number? It's gotta be easier than
"OK, what musical style haven't we used yet?". The current "serve up
another generic rock-ish/action movie-ish bland tune" is not serving
them well.)
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Tim McDaniel
Apr 26, 2013, 3:08:07 PM4/26/13
to
In article <O0ket.1$Sm...@newsfe23.iad>,
It's probably *his mother tongue*. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Jim G.
Apr 26, 2013, 3:51:01 PM4/26/13
to
Robert Bannister sent the following on Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:35:05 +0800:
they have called it? A purple tree?
--
Jim G. | A fan of good reading, good writing, and fellow bookworms
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin
> On 24/04/13 4:04 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > Probably since the 1980s or so I have known that Russians do not
> > use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
> > in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
> > "black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
> >
> > I supposed I learned this fact in some pop science or, more likely,
> > science fiction context. I also remember coming across it again
> > in a SF novel when I already knew it.
> >
> > Of course, nowadays if you want to know what the Russians call a black
> > hole, you just go to the Wikipedia article and follow the link to the
> > Russian version.
> >
> > Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
> > (There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
> > that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
> >
> > Probably since the 1980s or so I have known that Russians do not
> > use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
> > in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
> > "black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
> >
> > I supposed I learned this fact in some pop science or, more likely,
> > science fiction context. I also remember coming across it again
> > in a SF novel when I already knew it.
> >
> > Of course, nowadays if you want to know what the Russians call a black
> > hole, you just go to the Wikipedia article and follow the link to the
> > Russian version.
> >
> > Which says "chornaya dyra". Which literally means _black_ _hole_.
> > (There's a minor mention of "kollapsar", but it's an obsolete term
> > that doesn't describe a black hole proper.)
> >
> > So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> > sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> > first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> > the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> > down where that myth started?
> >
>
> > sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> > first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> > the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> > down where that myth started?
> >
>
> I have always felt that "black hole" is pretty disgusting in English too
> and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
It's a black nothingness that looks like a hole in space. What *should*
> and knowing scientists' humour, it was probably intended to be.
they have called it? A purple tree?
--
Jim G. | A fan of good reading, good writing, and fellow bookworms
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin
Wayne Throop
Apr 26, 2013, 4:19:01 PM4/26/13
to
:: Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan>
:: Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the
be keeping it up. Those seem to have been anomalies. Used to be there
were several interesting animations on both Disney and Nicktoons.
Now... not so much. Legend of Korra maybe, but I don't even know if
they're bothering with the second season of that, and so far, it
wasn't anywhere near as good as tLA, IMO. But I suppose I'm drifting
away from DisneyTV... which is indicative of something, since they
don't even have *that* much to talk about. IMO.
( Google, google. Oh.
So Korra is supposed to resume in 2013. Still not DisneyTV. )
:: Pixar is Pixar.
That's true. Most often good stuff, on average.
: tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
: _Phineas and Ferb_.
:: Now they seem to be doing pretty well. The Disney Channel does the
:: kind of solid programmers the live action movies used to be as well
:: as some "leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius &
:: Ferb and Kim Possible.
In terms of TV programming like Ph&F and KP, they don't really seem to
:: as some "leave the creative types alone" great stuff like Fennius &
:: Ferb and Kim Possible.
be keeping it up. Those seem to have been anomalies. Used to be there
were several interesting animations on both Disney and Nicktoons.
Now... not so much. Legend of Korra maybe, but I don't even know if
they're bothering with the second season of that, and so far, it
wasn't anywhere near as good as tLA, IMO. But I suppose I'm drifting
away from DisneyTV... which is indicative of something, since they
don't even have *that* much to talk about. IMO.
( Google, google. Oh.
So Korra is supposed to resume in 2013. Still not DisneyTV. )
:: Pixar is Pixar.
That's true. Most often good stuff, on average.
: tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
: _Phineas and Ferb_.
: While I love the show and it has had some classic moments, I think it
: has reached its lifetime in terms of good novel ideas. Though it
: could be energized if they coupld wake up their music composer to do
: more than one noticable song in every 7 episodes or so. (Can it
: really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
: classic-musical-style production number? It's gotta be easier than
: "OK, what musical style haven't we used yet?". The current "serve up
: another generic rock-ish/action movie-ish bland tune" is not serving
: them well.)
Yep, it isn't.
: has reached its lifetime in terms of good novel ideas. Though it
: could be energized if they coupld wake up their music composer to do
: more than one noticable song in every 7 episodes or so. (Can it
: really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
: classic-musical-style production number? It's gotta be easier than
: "OK, what musical style haven't we used yet?". The current "serve up
: another generic rock-ish/action movie-ish bland tune" is not serving
: them well.)
Robert Bannister
Apr 26, 2013, 9:17:50 PM4/26/13
to
--
Robert Bannister
Rod Speed
Apr 26, 2013, 10:52:36 PM4/26/13
to
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote in message
news:au0n9v...@mid.individual.net...
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Apr 27, 2013, 8:01:57 AM4/27/13
to
Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> It's a black nothingness that looks like a hole in space. What *should*
> they have called it? A purple tree?
>
Well, as Hawking found out, it is *not* black. It radiates something
> It's a black nothingness that looks like a hole in space. What *should*
> they have called it? A purple tree?
>
equivalent to a black body. Which is not quite intuitive term, since
black body is *not* black, if kept at temperatures above 0 K :-) (but
OTOH, what we intuitively consider "black" will radiate anyway, there is
no perfect absorber). Even Sun is quite a good approximation of a black
body.
Even without Hawking radiation, as long as there is matter around, black
hole won't be black even going by the black body radiation.
"Gravitational singularity" would be a good name. But "black hole" is
catchy and it even penetrated "normal" phraseology - something not many
high level physic terms do.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Robert Carnegie
Apr 27, 2013, 12:20:37 PM4/27/13
to
On Friday, 26 April 2013 20:07:00 UTC+1, Tim McDaniel wrote:
> Can it really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
> classic-musical-style production number?
I don't know the show - but, to write dozens of music parts,
> Can it really be that hard to give Doofenschmirtz another
> classic-musical-style production number?
then hire, rehearse and record a full size orchestra?
That sounds like a lot of work to me.
Ogglies end credits makes do with a whistling peanut
and a banjo.
Jim G.
Apr 29, 2013, 4:29:12 PM4/29/13
to
Robert Bannister sent the following on Sat, 27 Apr 2013 09:17:50 +0800:
Neither immediately invokes the accurate imagery that "black hole"
invokes. Plus you have the question of how many of the average blokes
out there could explain what a singularity is, whether in this sense or
any other.
I suppose you could call it a Big Black Dot, or some such thing, but I
just don't see the need. But then again, if someone mentions a hole in a
pocket, I don't immediately think of bodily orifices in *that* context,
either, so maybe I just suffer from a lack of imagination.
invokes. Plus you have the question of how many of the average blokes
out there could explain what a singularity is, whether in this sense or
any other.
I suppose you could call it a Big Black Dot, or some such thing, but I
just don't see the need. But then again, if someone mentions a hole in a
pocket, I don't immediately think of bodily orifices in *that* context,
either, so maybe I just suffer from a lack of imagination.
chri...@gmail.com
Apr 29, 2015, 7:25:48 PM4/29/15
to
...
Sailing Bright Eternity Paperback by Gregory Benford
> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> down where that myth started?
>
I came across a hint of this in a science fiction book:
> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> down where that myth started?
>
Sailing Bright Eternity Paperback by Gregory Benford
Greg Goss
Apr 29, 2015, 11:32:33 PM4/29/15
to
chri...@gmail.com wrote:
>...
>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>> down where that myth started?
>>
>...
>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>> down where that myth started?
>>
>> Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
>
>I came across a hint of this in a science fiction book:
>Sailing Bright Eternity Paperback by Gregory Benford
I have the impression that I read it in a 70's Sagan.
>
>I came across a hint of this in a science fiction book:
>Sailing Bright Eternity Paperback by Gregory Benford
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Quadibloc
Apr 30, 2015, 5:55:17 PM4/30/15
to
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 at 2:30:21 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Apr 24, 9:42 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> > On 2013-04-24 09:45:11 -0400,
> > garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
> >
> > > There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> > > Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> > > be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> > > hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
> >
> > Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
>
> Possibly, as according to Wikipedia, he has the right initials:
> Константи́н Серге́евич Станисла́вский.
>
> However, also according to Wikipedia, he passed away in 1938, having
> been born in 1863 - and so, if he had a lengthy career in the U.S., he
> would not have been still in the Soviet Union in 1938.
It is the same Stanslavski. The book, Работа актера над собой, was published in
> On Apr 24, 9:42 am, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> > On 2013-04-24 09:45:11 -0400,
> > garabik-news-2005...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk said:
> >
> > > There is a textbook for theatre authors from 1938 (К. С. Станиславский.
> > > Работа актера над собой), where the term occurs a lot - and this might
> > > be the source of the '38 peak. (portal's black hole, scenery's black
> > > hole, black hole of a theatre hall etc...)
> >
> > Is that the same Stanislavsky who wound up teaching in New York?
>
> Possibly, as according to Wikipedia, he has the right initials:
> Константи́н Серге́евич Станисла́вский.
>
> However, also according to Wikipedia, he passed away in 1938, having
> been born in 1863 - and so, if he had a lengthy career in the U.S., he
> would not have been still in the Soviet Union in 1938.
English in 1936, by Methuen, under the title "An Actor Prepares". Whether that
was a Russian translation, or Stanislavski himself wrote the book in Russian
first, then had it translated to English, since that was still the language in
which he was most comfortable, I do not know.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Apr 30, 2015, 5:56:40 PM4/30/15
to
On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 at 9:47:49 PM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:
> No no, that's "In Bhadnisia, black hole say you {CRASH!} o hai thunederbolt!".
Ah, yes, that young sidekick of the Justice League of America...
> No no, that's "In Bhadnisia, black hole say you {CRASH!} o hai thunederbolt!".
John Savard
Alie...@gmail.com
May 1, 2015, 12:17:37 AM5/1/15
to
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 at 1:04:00 PM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Probably since the 1980s or so I have known that Russians do not
> use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
> in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
> "black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
I first saw "collapsar" in an old SF novel (I forget which, but much earlier than McCarthy) and in context understood it to be what we now call a neutron star.
> Probably since the 1980s or so I have known that Russians do not
> use a loan translation of "black hole" and may also avoid the term
> in English, using "collapsar" instead, because the equivalent of
> "black hole" is already a vulgar term in Russian.
Mark L. Fergerson
David DeLaney
May 1, 2015, 12:47:08 AM5/1/15
to
2) he was a full-fledged member. Snapper Carr was the sidekick of the JLA who
I believe you're thinking of
and
iii) 2013? really? aw, you shoodn't'a hadn't'a oughta!
Dave, will explain Diana Lance's genealogy at great and boring length if not
stopped
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
Alie...@gmail.com
May 1, 2015, 12:48:40 AM5/1/15
to
On Thursday, April 25, 2013 at 9:54:44 AM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
> >
> > - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> > then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> > when it showed on something or another, and I still
> > don't remember diddly squat about it..
>
> It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
> ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
As a whole it's quite forgettable but it has memorable elements.
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Hole
> >
> > - the scary part is I saw it when the film came out, and
> > then made a point to catch it about five years ago
> > when it showed on something or another, and I still
> > don't remember diddly squat about it..
>
> It may be my favorite example of a movie that has all the right
> ingredients... and still falls terribly flat.
Frankly, building the model kit of the Cygnus:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/CYGNUS%20PAGE.htm
was more fun than the movie was. Bitch to light properly though.
> Somebody invested a lot of money there. They assembled a big-name
> cast. Big special effects. They got John Barry for the score.
> It's just the sort of big dumb object / lost artifact story I have
> a soft spot for. It has a friggin' black hole! And yet, the movie
> never gels. The actors sleepwalk through their roles, the story
> never manages to engage.
> Alan Dean Foster's novelization didn't manage to improve on it
> either, as far as I remember.
The book was better though neither resembled, except vaguely, WCRIFYW by Dick.
Mark L. Fergerson
Alie...@gmail.com
May 1, 2015, 12:51:49 AM5/1/15
to
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 at 9:19:30 PM UTC-7, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
I'm still wondering how Pournelle knows what I'm thinking, or rather doesn't. When I read that I had no idea which obscenity he had in *his* mind.
Mark L. Fergerson
> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> >So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> >sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> >first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> >the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> >down where that myth started?
>
> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
> >So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
> >sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
> >first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
> >the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
> >down where that myth started?
>
> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
> That's where I came across that claim.
I'm still wondering how Pournelle knows what I'm thinking, or rather doesn't. When I read that I had no idea which obscenity he had in *his* mind.
Mark L. Fergerson
William Vetter
May 1, 2015, 5:06:17 AM5/1/15
to
nu...@bid.nes wrote on 05/01/2015 :
> On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 at 9:19:30 PM UTC-7, David Goldfarb wrote:
>> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>> down where that myth started?
>>
>> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
>> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
>> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
>> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
>> That's where I came across that claim.
>
I thought it was a thing like computer ==> ordinateur in French, where
> On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 at 9:19:30 PM UTC-7, David Goldfarb wrote:
>> In article <kl6pfg$j79$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> So that fact I knew turns out to be nonsense. Maybe Russian
>>> sensibilities changed, but more likely it never was true in the
>>> first place. Now, what I don't remember is where I originally read
>>> the claim. But maybe other people's memory is better. Can we track
>>> down where that myth started?
>>
>> In 1978 an anthology entitled _Black Holes_ came out, edited by
>> Jerry Pournelle. I can recall reading Pournelle saying something
>> like, "In Russia they say 'frozen stars' because in Russian 'black
>> hole' is an obscenity that means exactly what you think it does."
>> That's where I came across that claim.
>
it _might_ be construed as something lewd.
Quadibloc
May 1, 2015, 9:02:15 PM5/1/15
to
On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:47:08 PM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:
> 2) he was a full-fledged member. Snapper Carr was the sidekick of the JLA who
> I believe you're thinking of
Yes, you're correct. But I also thought he was the one that did the "Cei U" thing.
> 2) he was a full-fledged member. Snapper Carr was the sidekick of the JLA who
> I believe you're thinking of
John Savard
Quadibloc
May 1, 2015, 9:04:26 PM5/1/15
to
something he was reluctant to refer to explicitly for reasons of taste.
John Savard
David DeLaney
May 2, 2015, 4:16:06 AM5/2/15
to
On 2015-05-02, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
Thunderbolt with it, due to something or other about chanting priests and a
missing heir, or maybe a switched twin-king-thing, or some such, when he was
but a wee bairn, so he didn't actually find OUT how the Thunderbolt got
summoned until he was an adult. (He'd been having it show up on and off all
along - he just didn't know WHY.)
Snapper Carr did get powers of his own, teleportation ones, later on, in a
special where the Dominators (from Legion of SuperHerpDerps, don't feel bad if
you don't remember them, I think they may have been a Giffen invention?)
decided to ... 'experiment' ... on a group of 50 captured Earthlings to see
if they could trigger powers. They were expecting about a 50% chance that one
of the fifty would survive the sudden massive variety of attacks by
manifesting.
... they got _seven_. At which point they did a credible imitation of that
one Shi'Ar captain who found out Earth's recent interaction history with
Galactus, almost too late... This was also the point where DC's Earth
officially got put on the 'metagene'/Wild Card basis for superpowers.
Dave
David DeLaney
May 2, 2015, 4:17:28 AM5/2/15
to
On 2015-05-01, William Vetter <mdha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought it was a thing like computer ==> ordinateur in French, where
> it _might_ be construed as something lewd.
When perfectly construed,
> I thought it was a thing like computer ==> ordinateur in French, where
> it _might_ be construed as something lewd.
EVERYTHING is lewd.
I could tell you things about C++
or ADA - THERE'S an integrated bus...
David Goldfarb
May 3, 2015, 1:45:03 AM5/3/15
to
In article <av-dnY4XD5BZGtnI...@earthlink.com>,
played a role in Paul Levitz's "Earthwar" arc.
>decided to ... 'experiment' ... on a group of 50 captured Earthlings to see
>if they could trigger powers. They were expecting about a 50% chance that one
>of the fifty would survive the sudden massive variety of attacks by
>manifesting.
> ... they got _seven_. At which point they did a credible imitation of that
>one Shi'Ar captain who found out Earth's recent interaction history with
>Galactus, almost too late...
Not so much. They got together a big coalition of alien races to invade,
in a crossover event entitled "Invasion!".
--
David Goldfarb |"It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I
goldf...@gmail.com |explain where you're wrong you're supposed to
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |become enlightened and change your mind.
|Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional."
| -- Karl Johanson
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>Snapper Carr did get powers of his own, teleportation ones, later on, in a
>special where the Dominators (from Legion of SuperHerpDerps, don't feel bad if
>you don't remember them, I think they may have been a Giffen invention?)
Actually their original appearance was a Jim Shooter story; they later
>Snapper Carr did get powers of his own, teleportation ones, later on, in a
>special where the Dominators (from Legion of SuperHerpDerps, don't feel bad if
>you don't remember them, I think they may have been a Giffen invention?)
played a role in Paul Levitz's "Earthwar" arc.
>decided to ... 'experiment' ... on a group of 50 captured Earthlings to see
>if they could trigger powers. They were expecting about a 50% chance that one
>of the fifty would survive the sudden massive variety of attacks by
>manifesting.
> ... they got _seven_. At which point they did a credible imitation of that
>one Shi'Ar captain who found out Earth's recent interaction history with
>Galactus, almost too late...
in a crossover event entitled "Invasion!".
--
David Goldfarb |"It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I
goldf...@gmail.com |explain where you're wrong you're supposed to
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |become enlightened and change your mind.
|Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional."
| -- Karl Johanson
0 new messages