10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them)

Lynn McGuire

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Jul 10, 2012, 6:42:48 PM7/10/12

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10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
2) Dune by Frank Herbert
3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov
5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
6) 1984 by George Orwell
7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

OK, I have read 4 of these so we are back to
the lists that I have not read half of.

BTW, if you have not read _Foundation_ then
you need to get busy to maintain your SF
credentials.

Lynn

Shawn Wilson

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Jul 10, 2012, 6:54:27 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 3:42 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:

> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read this one (and the rest of the series). Good. No urge to ever re-
read.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read this (and the series), I may read it again some day.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Read it. Hated it.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read it. OK.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Never heard of it.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Nor this either.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Read it. Disliked it.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Never heard of it.

lal_truckee

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Jul 10, 2012, 7:34:05 PM7/10/12

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On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

The seminal stuff is missing...
I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 10, 2012, 7:41:33 PM7/10/12

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On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>

I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.

>
>
> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me bother.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

A really excellent book. Wish he'd been able to write a sequel.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Tried, found it... not interesting.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it many times indeed.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Keep hearing about it, never quite enough interest to try it.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

A member of my elite "bounce" club. It did not QUITE split the binding
on the bounce, unlike LotF.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Keep meaning to read these, never quite got to them.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of it. Interesting it
got on this list, then.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

I read "Nova", that was enough Delany for me.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Only heard of it vaguely.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 10, 2012, 7:45:44 PM7/10/12

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On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> The seminal stuff is missing...
> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.

Bill Snyder

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Jul 10, 2012, 8:02:16 PM7/10/12

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On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:41:33 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>
>
> I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>
> Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me bother.

They weren't very good descriptions, then.

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

Cryptoengineer

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Jul 10, 2012, 8:07:33 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 6:42 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):

> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-...

>
> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Read it, liked it.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read it. Somewhat underwhelmed.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Read it. Liked it, but its a literary novel that shares little with
what we generally call SF.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it. Liked it.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

I know nothing about this one, but I think I've heard the title.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read it. Can't say I enjoyed it.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

This are two separate books, but slightly related.
Read both. Not really novels; more speculative future histories.
They're excellent, and were the first books to give me a feeling for
'deep time'.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

No idea whatsoever.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

....it. Liked it. Read....

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Heard of it, haven't read it.

pt

Shawn Wilson

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Jul 10, 2012, 8:05:35 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 4:34 pm, lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The seminal stuff is missing...
> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

Uh... I've read all of them. Good too.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Jul 10, 2012, 8:20:59 PM7/10/12

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In article <jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>
>http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them
>

Hmm..

>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Heard of it, never had a real clear idea of what it was about or why
I would like to read it.

>2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read it, liked it, but never felt it was one of the pinacles of SF.

>3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

From the title I thought it was SF, but quickly decided it wasn't.
Stuck with it because I was a teenager and it was full of kinky sex.
Aside from that just recall it was all rather stream of consciousness
and shiftings, but while some of the digressions were sort of fun (noxious
British candy..) on the whole I didn't *get* it.

>4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it. The bad guys won.

>5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Never read of it, might have heard of it.

>6) 1984 by George Orwell

A classic though certainly a downer. I guess my first encounter with
Sapir Worf, though not by that name.

>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Read F&LM: A spacey classic with tremendous scope. (And the first
time I really understood some Brits have really odd ideas about
America).

>8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Read it, liked it, but wouldn't call it a classic. Perhaps it was put
in as an early "after the fall" book.

>9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Tried it. Bounced.

>10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Never heard of it.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dan Goodman

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:04:08 PM7/10/12

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On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.

--
Dan Goodman

Dan Goodman

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:08:49 PM7/10/12

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On 07/10/2012 06:41 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
>
> Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of it. Interesting
> it got on this list, then.

I would recommend anyone who likes dystopian YA trying it.

>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
>
> I read "Nova", that was enough Delany for me.

You might like EARLY Delaney.

--
Dan Goodman

Howard Brazee

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:18:33 PM7/10/12

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On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:34:05 -0700, lal_truckee
<lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The seminal stuff is missing...
>I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

I never read Dracula and don't intend to. The others I've read. I
wonder who is this "everyone".

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

David Dyer-Bennet

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:19:50 PM7/10/12

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I have read the 7 of these that are SF, and one of the mainstream novels
they're trying to cram in (1984).

Dhalgren is a complete and total waste of time, the Stapledon is of only
historical interest (I knew that at the time I read it), and I didn't
find Jonathan Strange actually went anywhere, and ended up resenting the
time spent on it.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

David Dyer-Bennet

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:20:44 PM7/10/12

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lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> The seminal stuff is missing...
> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000
> Leagues Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to
> them well.

No, No, yes, yes. I tried Frankenstein once and Dracula a couple of
times and I just can't, but I've read the other two repeatedly and like
them.

David Dyer-Bennet

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:21:17 PM7/10/12

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There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.

David Dyer-Bennet

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:24:38 PM7/10/12

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"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:

> On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>
>
> I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>
> Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me bother.

It was the last Stephenson I read, and I won't be reading anything
further without considerable evidence of improvement.

>> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert
>
> A really excellent book. Wish he'd been able to write a sequel.

Yes, exactly. One of the best Sf novels ever.

>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
>
> Tried, found it... not interesting.

Don't believe I've read this, but on consideration it's possible. If I
did it made no impression at all.

>> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov
>
> Read it many times indeed.

I should probably read it again some decade, it's been forever.

>> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
>
> Keep hearing about it, never quite enough interest to try it.

I did read it, and regretted the time spent in the end. Nothing really
going on.

>> 6) 1984 by George Orwell
>
> A member of my elite "bounce" club. It did not QUITE split the
> binding on the bounce, unlike LotF.

Read it, but no need to reread it. Apparently it was eye-opening when
new.

>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>
> Keep meaning to read these, never quite got to them.

Read them, so you don't have to :-). Well, it's of historical interest,
and somewhat seminal, so perhaps that can be enough.

>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
>
> Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of
> it. Interesting it got on this list, then.

Yeah, I was a little surprised it was on the list. I don't remember
much about it.

>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
>
> I read "Nova", that was enough Delany for me.

Delany was one of my very favorite SF authors at the time. Dhalgren
cured me of that. I finished reading it by conscious perseverance, and
only for the purpose of keeping people from discounting my opinion
because I hadn't read the book.

It's a horribly pointless waste of time, but wastes some good
worldbuilding ideas.

>> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace
>
> Only heard of it vaguely.

Ditto.

Howard Brazee

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:28:20 PM7/10/12

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On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:42:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

>10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

When I read that article his morning, I pulled out my copy of _The
Long Tomorrow_, which I haven't read since 1976. I don't remember
it, so I will re-read it.

>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Each Stephenson book I read, I like less than the previous. Maybe
I'll get around to this.

>2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Of course (for someone in this newsgroup - remember that web site
isn't made for written SF fans)

>3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

I never got around to this.

>4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Of course

>5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

I loved this, others hated it.

>6) 1984 by George Orwell

of course

>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Not modern style of writing, even taking translation into account. Big
ideas. I don't see much reason for most people to read it.

>8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Maybe I'll re-read all of my books of hers, they are all short.

>9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Why was this on the list? Delany has other SF that most here will
enjoy much more.

>10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Never heard of it.

tphile2

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:24:43 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 6:45 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

Add to that version of the list, most all classics because you already
seen the movie.
Moby Dick, To Kill a Mockingbird, Ivanhoe, Dumas, and so on.
I went back and started reading those novels made into movies when I
discovered how significantly different they could be. Frankenstein
was a revelation. Finding the real monster is the doctor who was a
failure as a parent. That Ivanhoe is not the central character but
the jewish healer Rebecca.
Alan Moores The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen went back to the
source and motivated me to do the same.

Kip Williams

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:49:23 PM7/10/12

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tphile2 wrote:
> On Jul 10, 6:45 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> The seminal stuff is missing...
>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>
>> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>> get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.

I can't recall if I finished Frankenstein, but I think I did. I'm short
on Verne, but have read all those others.

> Add to that version of the list, most all classics because you already
> seen the movie.
> Moby Dick, To Kill a Mockingbird, Ivanhoe, Dumas, and so on.

I've only started Moby Dick, but I read all those others. Several by
Dumas, because they're entertaining (as were they all).

As to the original list of ten, I've read four.

Kip W
rasfw

Butch Malahide

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Jul 10, 2012, 9:52:57 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 8:28 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> >7) First and Last Men [sic] and Starmaker [sic] by Olaf Stapledon

>
> Not modern style of writing, even taking translation into account. Big
> ideas. I don't see much reason for most people to read it.

You read them in translation? In what language? I read _Last and First
Men_ and _Star Maker_ (the actual titles) in the original English, and
found them quite readable.

Butch Malahide

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Jul 10, 2012, 10:13:04 PM7/10/12

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On Jul 10, 5:42 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):

The books we think we ought to read are poky, dull and dry;
The books we really want to read, we are ashamed to buy;
The books that people talk about, we never can recall;
And the books that people give us, oh, they're the worst of all.
(Carolyn Wells)

> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Heard of it.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read it. Fair.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Heard of it.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read part of it. "Bridle and Saddle", I think.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Never heard of it.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Don't know if it's sci-fi or not, but I've read it several times.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

I haven't heard of those titles. I've read Stapledon's _Last and First
Men_ and _Star Maker_. I enjoyed them, but when I reread them I'll
probably do a lot of skipping.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

I have of course heard of this famous classic. Haven't gotten around
to reading it yet.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Heard of it.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Never heard of it.

> BTW, if you have not read _Foundation_ then
> you need to get busy to maintain your SF
> credentials.

Nope. As a self-styled charlatan, I have no use for credentials.

Don Bruder

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Jul 10, 2012, 10:32:49 PM7/10/12

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In article <fcgpv71pfdtu31dl1...@4ax.com>,

Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:41:33 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> >> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
> >>
> >
> > I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
> >
> > Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me bother.
>
> They weren't very good descriptions, then.

Amen! All kinds of good, just don't expect it to be "easy". It swings
from "huh?" to "WOW!" to "You MUST be joking, right?" to "Holy shit!
Didn't see *THAT* coming!" to "Wait a minute - How did they slip a math
textbook into my hands?" to "Oh shit, if I don't put this book down
*NOW*, I'm going to have an aneurysm laughing", and hits a whole bunch
of other high spots in between.

Definitely worth the read, IMO.

--
Email shown is deceased. If you would like to contact me by email, please
post something that makes it obvious in this or another group you see me
posting in with a "how to contact you" address, and I'll get back to you.

Raymond Daley

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Jul 10, 2012, 10:36:34 PM7/10/12

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> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

I've read both these. Dune recently (I didn't overly care for it, it was a
bit too self involved and overly complex for the sake of it) and 1984 when I
was about 17 or so (which I did like but found incredibly bleak so I guess
it worked).

I've got some of the rest of the list

1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

but none of them scream "READ ME!" to be honest.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 10, 2012, 10:41:41 PM7/10/12

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On 7/10/12 9:08 PM, Dan Goodman wrote:
> On 07/10/2012 06:41 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
>>
>> Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of it. Interesting
>> it got on this list, then.
>
> I would recommend anyone who likes dystopian YA trying it.

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:28:44 PM7/10/12

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Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> writes:

>>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>
> Each Stephenson book I read, I like less than the previous.

Yes, exactly. Maybe I should look up his work before _Snow Crash_; I
might like it!

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:42:13 PM7/10/12

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In article <ylfk7gub...@dd-b.net>,

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>
>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>
>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>
>There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.
>--

I've seen the claim (here?) that no full English translation of 20000
was done until quite recently (last 10 years) and that all English versions
before that are abridged and faulty in other ways as well. (I can't
verify that as I have yet to read any version).

David Johnston

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:50:20 PM7/10/12

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I gave Frankenstein a miss. The others I've read.

David Johnston

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:51:07 PM7/10/12

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On 7/10/2012 7:04 PM, Dan Goodman wrote:
> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>
> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
> in English.

Although it was so cut down in translation, that in a sense you haven't
read it.

Kay Shapero

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:57:27 PM7/10/12

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In article <jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...

>
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have Read (And Why You Should
> Actually Read Them):
> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-

> read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

>
> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read and enjoyed it when serialized in Analog. Picked it up later in
paperback. Have read some of the sequels too, but on the whole don't
recall them as well.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Got Foundation, Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation as a nice
big omnibus edition upon joining the SF book club as a teen. A good
read though it's aged.. but then what hasn't, including me?

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read the first half. Dropped out after it became obvious things were
heading straight down the tube. Sorry, folx, I don't DO torture-porn.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

I'm sure I read this as a teen but don't recall.

I'll likely read Cryptonomicon sometime; I've enjoyed previous
Stevenson stuff and I'm sure we have a copy around here somewhere.
Though on the whole I prefer his earlier works (Zodiac, Snow Crash)
before he settled into Infodump Mode for Diamond Age.

By the way, have fen really gotten into the "books read cited for
bragging rights" rituals of the Lit'ry Set? Snerk...

--
Kay Shapero
http://www.kayshapero.net
Address munged, to email use kay at the above domain (everything after
the www.)

Kay Shapero

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Jul 11, 2012, 12:00:00 AM7/11/12

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In article <jtie5f$gmi$1...@dont-email.me>, lal_t...@yahoo.com says...

>
> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> The seminal stuff is missing...

> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>

I've read all but Frankenstein; have to go grab a copy off Gutenberg.
Which is where I got Dracula, in fact, which I HAVE read. The latter
two I read as a kid, out of the library. What's to pretend?

David Goldfarb

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Jul 10, 2012, 11:50:13 PM7/10/12

to

In article <jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:

>10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>

>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Read it, liked it.

>2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read it, liked it.

>3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Haven't read it, might someday. (I did get to hear Jon Singer read
aloud the infamous "weird English candy" passage at last year's
Farthing Party.)

>4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it when I was young, liked it.

>5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Read it, loved it -- I wished it wouldn't end. I've joked that
it's so long it very nearly doesn't.

>6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read it, liked it, doubt I'll read it again.

>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Seen it but not read it.

>8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Only one on the list I hadn't heard of before. It strikes me as a
strange inclusion.

>9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Read it, liked it.

>10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Heard of it, might read it someday.

--
David Goldfarb |"Obviously proud of knowing a word I didn't know,
goldf...@gmail.com |Horace carefully repeated, 'Meretricious!'.
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |Whereupon I replied, 'And a happy new year to you.'"
| -- Isaac Asimov

David Johnston

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Jul 11, 2012, 12:03:56 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/10/2012 5:41 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>
>

> I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.
>
>
>>
>>

>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>

> Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me
> bother.

I have given Stephenson all the bites I intend to. Not in the market
for meandering digressions only tangentially related to what the
characters are doing and tacked on arbitrary endings.

>
>> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert
>

> A really excellent book. Wish he'd been able to write a sequel.

I quited liked it.

>
>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
>

> Tried, found it... not interesting.

Why on Earth would people recommend a book that they themselves can't read?

>
>> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov
>

> Read it many times indeed.

Yeah, I doubt many people who claim to have read it haven't.

>
>> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
>

> Keep hearing about it, never quite enough interest to try it.

Started. Didn't finish.

>
>> 6) 1984 by George Orwell
>

> A member of my elite "bounce" club. It did not QUITE split the
> binding on the bounce, unlike LotF.

I read it all the way through. Fortunately it was short.

>
>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>

> Keep meaning to read these, never quite got to them.

The odd thing about First and Last Men is that I know I've read part of
it but don't think I've read all of it. Maybe it was being serialized
in a magazine?

>
>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
>

> Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of it. Interesting
> it got on this list, then.

Recently re-released. Actually I think I may have read it.

>
>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
>

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Jul 11, 2012, 12:24:48 AM7/11/12

to

t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:

> In article <ylfk7gub...@dd-b.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>>
>>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>>
>>There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.
>

> I've seen the claim (here?) that no full English translation of 20000
> was done until quite recently (last 10 years) and that all English versions
> before that are abridged and faulty in other ways as well. (I can't
> verify that as I have yet to read any version).

I've seen the same claim about The Mysterious Island. In fact one man
was so serious about it that he'd done his own translation, and sent me
a copy. I can't say I noticed significant differences from the old
versions I was familiar with (it was fairly good, probably not as clean
as a professional translation; but not much difference that I noticed).

Dan Goodman

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Jul 11, 2012, 12:27:32 AM7/11/12

to

On 07/10/2012 10:57 PM, Kay Shapero wrote:
> By the way, have fen really gotten into the "books read cited for
> bragging rights" rituals of the Lit'ry Set? Snerk...

If I were bragging, I would go for

1) deservedly-obscure books which get discussed, such as Curme Gray's
Murder in Millennium VI. Read it when I was about ten; didn't
understand it till years later, when I read Damon Knight's review. (Far
future mystery, with nothing explained which people of that time
wouldn't need explained -- including the ordinary use of the device
which turns out to be the murder weapon, as I recall. Other end of a
spectrum from the early Turtledove fantasy which gives a detailed
explanation of how to use a chamberpot.)

2) Older books with ideas which are now being hailed as wonderfully new;
for example, a city with two populations which each act as if the other
didn't exist. (Gordon R. Dickson's Delusion World; the recent one is
China Mievelle's The City and the City.)

Or I might make something up. Like the fantasy anthology which includes
"Snow White and the Seven Deadly Sins."

--
Dan Goodman

Butch Malahide

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Jul 11, 2012, 12:35:47 AM7/11/12

to

On Jul 10, 11:27 pm, Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>
> 2) Older books with ideas which are now being hailed as wonderfully new;
> for example, a city with two populations which each act as if the other
> didn't exist. (Gordon R. Dickson's Delusion World;

Is that were Jack Vance got the idea for "Ulan Dhor Ends a Dream"?

Dan Goodman

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:03:35 AM7/11/12

to

On 07/10/2012 11:35 PM, Butch Malahide wrote:
> On Jul 10, 11:27 pm, Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2) Older books with ideas which are now being hailed as wonderfully new;
>> for example, a city with two populations which each act as if the other
>> didn't exist. (Gordon R. Dickson's Delusion World;
>
> Is that were Jack Vance got the idea for "Ulan Dhor Ends a Dream"?

Probably not; that story is from 1950, the Dickson novel from 1961
according to ISFDB.

I wonder if Vance was the first to use it?

>
>> the recent one is China Mievelle's The City and the City.)

--
Dan Goodman

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:13:03 AM7/11/12

to

In article <jtie5f$gmi$1...@dont-email.me>,

lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>The seminal stuff is missing...

>I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>

>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>
>>
>http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them
>>
>>
>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert
>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
>> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov
>> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
>> 6) 1984 by George Orwell
>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

>> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace
>>
>> OK, I have read 4 of these so we are back to
>> the lists that I have not read half of.
>>
>> BTW, if you have not read _Foundation_ then
>> you need to get busy to maintain your SF

>> credentials.
>>
>> Lynn
>
>

Hm. 1, the title puts me off. I don't like even real Lovecraft,
with the exception of the silent _Call of Cthulhu_ from HPLHS.
2 I've read; not bad (as distinguished from its sequels). 3
I've read, DIS-gusting. 4, of course, a classic. 5, tried to
get into and couldn't. 6, read, didn't like (what did you
expect?). 7, read long ago and can't remember much of it. 8
I've never come across. 9, heard bad reports of ("it glorifies
rape!") so didn't read. 10, never heard of.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:13:56 AM7/11/12

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In article <jtier8$ipo$3...@dont-email.me>,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> The seminal stuff is missing...
>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>

> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.
>

I've read all those except Dracula. Vampires turn me off. I've
seen the movies, though, both in English and in Spanish (shot at
night with the same sets, different cast).

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:28:31 AM7/11/12

to

On 2012-07-10 19:34:05 -0400, lal_truckee said:

> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> The seminal stuff is missing...
> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.

I've read and enjoyed Frankenstein, Dracula, and War of the Worlds;
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea I'm not sure about, after seeing the story
in various comic books, movies, children's abridged versions, etc. I
don't think I ever did read the entire original.

>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>
>> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them
>>
>>
>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Not interested.

>> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Started it once, quit after less than a chapter.

>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Started it three times, loved it, but each time I got interrupted, and
when I went back I couldn't pick up where I'd left off -- it was too
complex, and I wound up starting over. I still intend to finish it
someday.

>> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it.

>> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

On my "maybe when I have time" list.

>> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read it.

>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

I've never seen a copy, which is very odd, given that I grew up in a
house full of SF and have attended a few hundred conventions.

>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

I may have inherited a copy, but I haven't read it. I usually like Brackett.

>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

This one I know I have a copy, but haven't yet read.

>> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Not interested.

--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:16:04 AM7/11/12

to

In article <MPG.2a669bb35...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote:
>In article <jtip9k$3ua$2...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
>says...
>>
>
>>
>> I actually never saw a movie version of Mockingbird or Ivanhoe, and I
>> read Dumas long before I ever saw any movie versions. Moby Dick I've
>> endured twice.
>
>The trick with _Moby Dick_ is to forget all about action and plot for
>most of the book, and treat it as a study of life on a whaling vessel.
>Then it's interesting. Finally you get to the end where you can cheer
>on the eponymous whale as he gets a solid revenge on the guy responsible
>for it all. :)
>
>_Ivanhoe_'s a great book. I was dreadfully disappointed when on the
>strength of that I went on to _Waverly_. Could not get into it with a
>chisel.

I was tempted to read _Ivanhoe_ by the famous discussion of how
the farm animals have Saxon names but when they come to the table
they're Norman. But there were an awful lot of inaccuracies
which maybe Scott didn't know any better than, but I did. Saw
two different movies though, one with Rhys-Davies as Front-de-Boeuf.
Talk about typecasting.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:17:38 AM7/11/12

to

In article <4ffcd10c$0$74859$8046...@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com>,

Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:

>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>

>20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.

The English translation I read, as a child, was ... lacking in a
few places. Professor Arronax begins with saying he was out
doing fieldwork in "les mauvais terres d'Idaho." Translation
said, "The terrible regions of Idaho." Try "Badlands."

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:18:08 AM7/11/12

to

In article <a64b0k...@mid.individual.net>,

Faulty certainly; see my other post about the Badlands.
Abridged, I've no idea.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:23:38 AM7/11/12

to

In article <4ffcd220$0$95325$8046...@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com>,
Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:

>On 07/10/2012 06:41 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett
>>

>> Pretend to have read? Until now I'd never HEARD of it. Interesting
>> it got on this list, then.
>

>I would recommend anyone who likes dystopian YA trying it.

>
>>> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
>>

>> I read "Nova", that was enough Delany for me.
>

>You might like EARLY Delaney.

I liked _Beta-2_, _Babel-17_, and _The Einstein Intersection_; I
don't have a copy of the latter any more or I'd read it. I also
read ... damn, what's its name.

/hits ISFDB

_Empire Star_, that was it. Wasn't impressed. So the guy's end
is his beginning. So what? I asked once on this group "What in
heck am I missing?" and Jo Walton said "EVERYTHING!!!"

/shrug

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:26:02 AM7/11/12

to

In article <ylfk394z...@dd-b.net>,
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>
>>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
>>

>> Tried, found it... not interesting.
>

>Don't believe I've read this, but on consideration it's possible. If I
>did it made no impression at all.

It's *sort of* about WW2 and the V-2s, but not much. Mostly
about a GI wandering through Germany toward the end of the war,
pretty much out of his mind. Plus dollops of sexual perversions
here and there. The title (means a ballistic trajectory, get
it?) was the best part.

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:31:42 AM7/11/12

to

On 2012-07-11 01:13:56 -0400, Dorothy J Heydt said:

> In article <jtier8$ipo$3...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> The seminal stuff is missing...
>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>
>> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>> get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.
>>
> I've read all those except Dracula. Vampires turn me off. I've
> seen the movies, though, both in English and in Spanish (shot at
> night with the same sets, different cast).

The movies have almost nothing to do with the novel; they're based on
the stage play that Stoker wrote to cash in on the novel's success.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:36:45 AM7/11/12

to

In article <4ffd00b4$0$74856$8046...@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com>,

Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>On 07/10/2012 10:57 PM, Kay Shapero wrote:
>> By the way, have fen really gotten into the "books read cited for
>> bragging rights" rituals of the Lit'ry Set? Snerk...
>
>If I were bragging, I would go for
>
>1) deservedly-obscure books which get discussed, such as Curme Gray's
>Murder in Millennium VI. Read it when I was about ten; didn't
>understand it till years later, when I read Damon Knight's review. (Far
>future mystery, with nothing explained which people of that time
>wouldn't need explained -- including the ordinary use of the device
>which turns out to be the murder weapon, as I recall.

I would love to get hold of a copy of that thing, just to see if
I could make sense of it. It doesn't seem to be available
anywhere.

Other end of a
>spectrum from the early Turtledove fantasy which gives a detailed
>explanation of how to use a chamberpot.)

I thought it was a Pratchett book that explained that ...
somebody mentioned it, and I asked which book, but the somebody
couldn't remember.

>Or I might make something up. Like the fantasy anthology which includes
>"Snow White and the Seven Deadly Sins."

Well, there is always the ... early medieval forerunner of an
opera, or maybe a morality play, _Ordo Virtutum_. It's available
on CD, with the late Barbara Thornton singing the role of the
Human Soul. Twelfth century. All the other sung roles are the
Virtues who confront the Vices. The only spoken role, and the
only male role, is that of the Devil. (It was designed to be
performed in a monastery of women; also, the Virtues are all
abstract qualities, and in Latin as in Greek, all abstract nouns
are feminine.)

http://www.amazon.com/Hildegard-von-Bingen-Ordo-Virtutum/dp/B0000061LW

No chamber pots, to my recollection.

Brian M. Scott

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Jul 11, 2012, 1:55:40 AM7/11/12

to

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:23:57 -0700, Don Bruder
<dak...@sonic.net> wrote in
<news:jtiv2r$mtq$2...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> How an author can do something as good as Dhalgren, yet
> also be responsible for such dreck as Nova and Babel-17
> is beyond my comprehension.

You have it exactly backwards.

Brian

Brian M. Scott

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Jul 11, 2012, 2:09:34 AM7/11/12

to

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:42:48 -0500, Lynn McGuire

<l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

I've looked at it several times and never been motivated to
red it.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Excellent book. Then it was steadily downhill until
_Chapterhouse: Dune_, which was actually quite readable.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Never had the slightest desire to read it.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Of course.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Yes.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Yes. And while I don't really regret it, I'm certainly not
going to reread it.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

I've no desire to read these; they're of historical interest
at best.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

Yes, long ago; all that I now remember is that I thought it
rather well done.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

I made the mistake of buying it on the basis of his earlier
work. It's one of the first books that I permitted myself
not to finish.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

I'm not at all sure that I've even heard of it.

[...]

Brian

Moriarty

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Jul 11, 2012, 2:11:23 AM7/11/12

to

On Jul 11, 3:13 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <jtie5f$gm...@dont-email.me>,

>
>
>
>
>
> lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> >The seminal stuff is missing...
> >I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
> >Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>
> >> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> >> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>

> >http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-...

>
> >> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>

> Hm. 1, the title puts me off. I don't like even real Lovecraft,
> with the exception of the silent _Call of Cthulhu_ from HPLHS.

Boggle. There are many reasons not to read Cryptonomicon(*), but it
being too Lovecraft-like isn't one of them. Aside from the title
being a word-play on Necronomicon, it's got NOTHING to do with the
genre.

(*) Personally, I loved it, but I can see why others wouldn't.

-Moriarty

Mike Dworetsky

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Jul 11, 2012, 3:18:19 AM7/11/12

to

Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <ylfk7gub...@dd-b.net>,

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:

>>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000
>>>> Leagues Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends
>>>> to them well.
>>>

>>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's
>>> book in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it,
>>> though only in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the
>>> Worlds.
>>
>> There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.
>> --
>
> I've seen the claim (here?) that no full English translation of 20000
> was done until quite recently (last 10 years) and that all English
> versions before that are abridged and faulty in other ways as well.
> (I can't verify that as I have yet to read any version).

20,000 Leagues under the Sea:

Most editions perpetuate errors and omissions in the earlier versions.
There is one "Completely Restored and Annotated Edition", translated by W.
J. Miller and F. P. Walter, Naval Institute Press, 1993. I highly recommend
it. The annotations explain the omissions and variations in the texts and
they restore the original as far as can be done.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Bill Snyder

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Jul 11, 2012, 3:20:15 AM7/11/12

to

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:32:49 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
wrote:

>In article <fcgpv71pfdtu31dl1...@4ax.com>,
> Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:41:33 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>>
>> >On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>> >> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>> >>
>> >

>> > I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.

>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>> >

>> > Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me bother.
>>
>> They weren't very good descriptions, then.
>
>Amen! All kinds of good, just don't expect it to be "easy". It swings
>from "huh?" to "WOW!" to "You MUST be joking, right?" to "Holy shit!
>Didn't see *THAT* coming!" to "Wait a minute - How did they slip a math
>textbook into my hands?" to "Oh shit, if I don't put this book down
>*NOW*, I'm going to have an aneurysm laughing", and hits a whole bunch
>of other high spots in between.
>
>Definitely worth the read, IMO.

Even measuring purely by gosh-wow coefficient, which Wasp is prone
to do -- what's not to like? A haiku-writing U. S. Marine? A
genius-level hacker, born into a world where he has to invent
something to be hacked? Code-breaking, code-making, daring
missions behind enemy lines? Vulture capitalists, legal & illegal
shenanigans, the One True Way to eat Cap'n Crunch cereal, a crazy
U-boat commander, sunken treasure, buried treasure, furniture
porn, a Nazi secret weapon, a giant lizard? The Holocaust
Education & Avoidance Pod? Cameos and guest appearances by Alan
Turing, Ronald Reagan, Karl Doernitz, Isoroku Yamamoto, Hermann
Goering, Douglas MacArthur? A frameup on a capital charge, true
love, a shootout with a psycho lawyer? He ought to be
knee-walking into the bookstore, begging for a copy.

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]

Leif Roar Moldskred

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Jul 11, 2012, 4:12:23 AM7/11/12

to

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

> In article <jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>
>>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>

> Heard of it, never had a real clear idea of what it was about or why
> I would like to read it.

It's Simon Singh's "The Code Book" mixed in equal parts with "Force 10
From Navarone" and "The Hacker's Manifesto", seasoned heavily with
blog posts.

*shrugs* I read it, it had some cute parts, don't see what all the
hoopla is about.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

David DeLaney

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Jul 11, 2012, 5:18:20 AM7/11/12

to

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>

>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

>2) Dune by Frank Herbert

>3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Have not read this, probably not ever going to.

>4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

>5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

>6) 1984 by George Orwell

Have not read this _yet_; have absorbed most of a summary by osmosis from
cultural references.

>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Reread this every so often (I have the version that has both of these bound
together).

>8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

...Have read some Brackett. Don't think I've ever heard of this one?

>9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Probably not gonna ever read it, though from descriptions I may be more
suited than many ordinary people to not get totally squicked out by parts of it.

>10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

He's the one who played that guy on M*A*S*H, right? What =is= this one doing
here with the others? Isn't that sort of like including some book from 1943
that nobody's ever heard of because it mentions looking through a telescope
at one point?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

David DeLaney

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Jul 11, 2012, 5:20:02 AM7/11/12

to

Shawn Wilson <ikono...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>

>Never heard of it.

Classic. Library. Last and First Men covers the evolution and history of
the human race from around now until the Seventeenth Men (I think) on
Neptune, over billions of years. Star Maker covers the evolution and history
of our universe, and others.

David DeLaney

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Jul 11, 2012, 5:23:16 AM7/11/12

to

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On 2012-07-10 19:34:05 -0400, lal_truckee said:
>>> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>
>I've never seen a copy, which is very odd, given that I grew up in a
>house full of SF and have attended a few hundred conventions.

I noticed while replying to Shawn that lal_ has BOTH titles wrong here:
they're _Last and First Men_ and _Star Maker_. So at least look for it / them
under those...

David DeLaney

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Jul 11, 2012, 5:30:19 AM7/11/12

to

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>

>Read F&LM: A spacey classic with tremendous scope. (And the first
>time I really understood some Brits have really odd ideas about America).

Star Maker has tremendouser scope. L&FM (not F&LM) stays inside our Solar
System the whole time, and its gimmick is that the Last Men can communicate
telepathically with earlier ages so they're sending back this history. Star
Maker covers our whole universe and its history, with a kind of mental astral-
projection gimmick that lets the protagonist go Out There and To Other Times
and "live inside with" other minds (as well as learn to blesh with them so
they form a larger gestalt). He starts off learning from one alien world's
inhabitants, then the two of them pop off to explore, and etc. Along the
way there are sentient stars and what constitutes bad manners for them,
unexpected minds from early on, a gradual organization of our entire cosmos
through mentalic communication of this sort, and the Supreme Moment of our
cosmos when it collectively gets a glimpse of what comes before and after
our universe.

Okay, I'll start breathing again now, sorry.

David DeLaney

unread,

Jul 11, 2012, 5:32:20 AM7/11/12

to

Raymond Daley <raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>I've got some of the rest of the list

>
>1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

>3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

>4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

>9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany
>

>but none of them scream "READ ME!" to be honest.

Out of those five, I'd say go for the Asimov first. Stapledon and Stephenson
after that, and maybe the other two if you run entirely out of reading material
at some point and have already come to the end of the Internet...

Juho Julkunen

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Jul 11, 2012, 5:32:17 AM7/11/12

to

In article <jtib5b$rk9$1...@dont-email.me>, l...@winsim.com says...

>
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):

> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

>
> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Haven't read. I have Snow Crash waiting in my to-be-read pile, though.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read a number of times.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Been meaning to.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Obviously.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Not really interested.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Read.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

Been meaning to, but feel no urgency.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

The what now?

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

Heard more bad than good, not high on my list.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Not familiar.

Three out of ten? Well, I suppose I'll get to at least a couple of
these in the foreseeable future.

--
Juho Julkunen

Jaimie Vandenbergh

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Jul 11, 2012, 6:11:30 AM7/11/12

to

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 02:20:15 -0500, Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net>

/puts Cryptonomicon back on the e-reader for a fourth re-read

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"It should always be a Sunday but, unfortunately, it hardly ever is."
- Jeff Noon, Automated Alice

Jaimie Vandenbergh

unread,

Jul 11, 2012, 6:27:50 AM7/11/12

to

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:30:19 -0400, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David
DeLaney) wrote:

>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote:
>>Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>>7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon
>>
>>Read F&LM: A spacey classic with tremendous scope. (And the first
>>time I really understood some Brits have really odd ideas about America).
>
>Star Maker has tremendouser scope. L&FM (not F&LM) stays inside our Solar
>System the whole time, and its gimmick is that the Last Men can communicate
>telepathically with earlier ages so they're sending back this history. Star
>Maker covers our whole universe and its history, with a kind of mental astral-
>projection gimmick that lets the protagonist go Out There and To Other Times
>and "live inside with" other minds (as well as learn to blesh with them so
>they form a larger gestalt). He starts off learning from one alien world's
>inhabitants, then the two of them pop off to explore, and etc. Along the
>way there are sentient stars and what constitutes bad manners for them,
>unexpected minds from early on, a gradual organization of our entire cosmos
>through mentalic communication of this sort, and the Supreme Moment of our
>cosmos when it collectively gets a glimpse of what comes before and after
>our universe.
>
>Okay, I'll start breathing again now, sorry.

Unfortunately they're both written in a style that I can only describe
as very, very dull.

Perhaps I should try again, with the expectation that I'm getting a
travelogue rather than a novel.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Hey T-Rex! This ice cream cake is delicious!"
"Thanks! You don't think it tastes like... *philosophical compromise*?"
"Only a little!
-- http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1093

David Goldfarb

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Jul 11, 2012, 6:40:46 AM7/11/12

to

In article <slrnjvqfp...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,

David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace
>
>He's the one who played that guy on M*A*S*H, right?

Er, no. That was David Ogden Stiers.

--
David Goldfarb |"Given enough time and the right audience,
goldf...@gmail.com | the darkest of secrets scum over into
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | mere curiosities."
| -- Neil Gaiman, _Sandman_ #53

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 11, 2012, 8:07:32 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/11/12 12:03 AM, David Johnston wrote:

> On 7/10/2012 5:41 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 7/10/12 6:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

>>> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
>>> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>>>
>>

>> I don't pretend to read anything I haven't.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>

>>> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson
>>
>> Descriptions of this one didn't impress nearly enough to make me
>> bother.
>

> I have given Stephenson all the bites I intend to. Not in the market
> for meandering digressions only tangentially related to what the
> characters are doing and tacked on arbitrary endings.

>
>>
>>> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert
>>

>> A really excellent book. Wish he'd been able to write a sequel.
>
> I quited liked it.

>
>>
>>> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon
>>

>> Tried, found it... not interesting.
>

> Why on Earth would people recommend a book that they themselves can't read?

>
>>
>>> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov
>>

>> Read it many times indeed.
>
> Yeah, I doubt many people who claim to have read it haven't.

>
>>
>>> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke
>>

>> Keep hearing about it, never quite enough interest to try it.
>
> Started. Didn't finish.

>
>>
>>> 6) 1984 by George Orwell
>>

>> A member of my elite "bounce" club. It did not QUITE split the
>> binding on the bounce, unlike LotF.
>
> I read it all the way through. Fortunately it was short.

Oh, I read it all the way through. Most of the "Bounce" category is
"read all the way through" because only by the time I reach the end can
I have so much hatred for the book."

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 11, 2012, 8:12:30 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/11/12 1:18 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <a64b0k...@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <ylfk7gub...@dd-b.net>,
>> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>> Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>>>
>>>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>>>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>>>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>>>
>>> There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.
>>> --
>>
>> I've seen the claim (here?) that no full English translation of 20000
>> was done until quite recently (last 10 years) and that all English versions
>> before that are abridged and faulty in other ways as well. (I can't
>> verify that as I have yet to read any version).
>
> Faulty certainly; see my other post about the Badlands.
> Abridged, I've no idea.
>

Essentially ALL translations of 20,000 Leagues were severely cut,
missing roughly 25% of the original, up until the early 90s.

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

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Jul 11, 2012, 8:18:24 AM7/11/12

to

A LOT of that doesn't sound "gosh-wow", more "acid-trip", and in fact
the list reminds me of Illuminatus!, which was good but I have no
interest in reading anything like it; I've seen Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo which
pretty much pegs the meter on the "weird sh*t you can't figure out" scale.

Evelyn Leeper

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Jul 11, 2012, 8:57:22 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/10/12 9:21 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Dan Goodman<dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>
>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>
>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>
> There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.

Well, the Disney movie was probably why it was so widely available then.

Personally, the first Verne I read was THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND, which I
read in the Scribners hardcover until it literally fell apart. I also
read and re-read STAR OF THE UNBORN by Franz Werfel, a truly unlikely SF
novel, but for some reason it was in the house so I read it. Both were
probably about the time I was in junior high school or so.

Of course, since then I've read all the major Verne, and some minor
works as well. In English, though occasionally referencing back to the
original French, or to Spanish translations, which are often much closer
to the original.

No one has mentioned Doyle's LOST WORLD as another early classic also
made into a gazillion movies (okay, only ten, but it seems like more).

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Time travel may be possible, but it is not practical. -Stephen Hawking

Evelyn Leeper

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:08:13 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/11/12 1:13 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<jtier8$ipo$3...@dont-email.me>,

> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:

>>> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> The seminal stuff is missing...

>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>

>> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>> get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.
>>
> I've read all those except Dracula. Vampires turn me off. I've
> seen the movies, though, both in English and in Spanish (shot at
> night with the same sets, different cast).
>

You do realize that there are more movies of DRACULA than just the 1931
Universal films, right? Even in Spanish, e.g., the 1957 Mexican film EL
VAMPIRO.

Evelyn Leeper

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:08:18 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/11/12 1:17 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<4ffcd10c$0$74859$8046...@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com>,

> Dan Goodman<dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:

>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>

>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>

> The English translation I read, as a child, was ... lacking in a
> few places. Professor Arronax begins with saying he was out
> doing fieldwork in "les mauvais terres d'Idaho." Translation
> said, "The terrible regions of Idaho." Try "Badlands."
>

Here in great and gory detail is what I wrote before Renovation last
year about another Verne translation:

In preparation for one of the Worldcon book discussions this year,
I read FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON by Jules Verne. The translation
I read was the 1874 translation by Louis Mercier and Eleanor E.
King (hereafter referred to as Mercier/King), in a book published
in 1905 (no ISBN). The other translations I referred to were the
Edward Roth, from the same era and reprinted by Dover (ISBN 978-0-
486-46964-5), and the Walter James Miller in THE ANNOTATED JULES
VERNE: FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON (ISBN 978-0-517-14833-4). I also
compared them to the French original, available on-line. You can
take it as a given that any public domain (pre-1922) English
translation of Verne is pretty bad. I've commented on this before
(in my review of JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH), but will
point out a few examples here. (Why did I read these translations?
Because they are the ones we had in the house.)

The result of all the bad translations is that Verne's knowledge of
Florida (and the United States in general) often seems as shaky as
his knowledge of the moon. Mercier/King has Stones Hill, near
Tampa, have an elevation of 1800 feet; the highest elevation
anywhere in Florida is 345 feet. The Edward Roth translation is
only marginally better than Mercier/King's, with and elevation as
"nearly a thousand feet." But Verne got it right: the original
French gives Stone's Hill an elevation of only 300 feet. (Well, I
*thought* it was the original French, but Miller also says 1800
feet. Was the on-line version corrected by someone?)

However, both Mercier/King and the original French has the highest
elevation of the Appalachians (in New Hampshire) as 5600 feet; it
is actually 6288 feet. (Roth re-writes the passage to get it
right; Miller claims Verne said 6600 feet.) Both Verne and
Mercier/King have that the highest elevation of the Rocky Mountains
is 10,700 feet; it is actually 14,433 feet. Verne does not seem to
know about the Sierra Nevada at all. And when he places the high
point in "the territory of Missouri", he is being anachronistic,
since while the Missouri Territory did include Longs Peak, the
territory was re-organized and renamed in 1821, well before the
time of the story. As it reads, though, it could easily be read as
the state of Missouri, which is patently ridiculous. There are no
peaks that high in the state of Missouri. (Again, Roth corrects
Verne's errors, and places it in the "Territory of Colorado";
Miller annotates it.)

Indeed, Roth takes such liberties with sections of Verne that at
times it is scarcely a translation at all. When one reads
Mercier/King, one gets an abridged version with sloppy translation
and most of Verne's science left out; when one reads Roth, one is
reading an American author's paraphrase of Verne containing a lot
of elaboration that Verne never wrote. The result is that when I
compared one translation to the other, or to the original French, I
often got the feeling I was looking at four different books.

One entire chapter Mercier/King leaves out is titled (in Roth's
translation) "Which Lady Readers Are Requested to Skip". There is
nothing racy here--it is full of scientific information about the
moon. But the title scarcely represents Verne's attitude toward
women, because his original title is "What It Is Impossible Not to
Know and What It Is No Longer Permissible to Believe in the United
States" (as Miller accurately translates it).

And another minor translation example: Mercier/King translates "en
deux mots" as "in two words" when clearly what is meant is "in two
sayings".

Much has been made of the similarities between Verne's moon launch
and the Apollo program. Both launch from Florida, both carry three
men, both use up-to-the-minute materials, one named the cannon
Columbiad and the other the ship Columbia, and so on. But Verne
launches from the west coast of Florida, not the east, and uses a
"count-up" (to forty) rather than a count-down, providing
additional support to the claim that Fritz Lang invented the
countdown in FRAU IM MOND.

Verne had an odd idea of how duels were fought in the United
States: he seemed to think that the two participants entered a
forest with guns and dogs, and hunted each other like wild game.
He thought there was a venomous spider as large as a pigeon's egg--
and with claws--that was native to Florida. (To be fair, the
naturalist William Bartram describes a spider of this size, though
I doubt he mentions claws.)

Verne has included humor--though at times one is more likely to
call them attempts at humor. There is certainly black humor in his
description of the Baltimore Gun Club: "Crutches, wooden legs,
artificial arms, iron hands, gutta percha jaws, silver skulls,
platina noses, false teeth--nothing was wanting to the collection;
and W. J. Pitcairn, the statistician already mentioned, calculated
that in the Gun Club, on an average, there was only one arm for
every four men, and one pair of legs for every six." And he gives
us (according to Miller) Tom Hunter, whose "wooden legs, resting on
the fender in the smoking room, were slowly charring"; Billsby
"trying to stretch the arms he no longer had"; Colonel Bloomsbury,
who could not stuff his hands in his pockets, "though it was not
pockets he lacked"; and J. T. Marston, "scratching his gutta-percha
skull with his iron hook." (This is Miller's translation; Roth
gives Bilsby one glass eye and makes Bloomsbury the only armless
member named; Mercier/King's is much shorter and omits Bloomsbury
altogether. Miller's is the most accurate.)

On the other hand, a lot of Verne's attempts at humor rely on
national stereotypes, such as in his descriptions of how much money
each nation contributed and why. Again, the two translations
disagree on details, but the general idea is certainly Verne's.
(Another example of this in Roth's translation, describing the
tourists from all over the world who come to the launch, seems to
have been entirely invented by Roth; it does not appear in Verne's
original at all.)

What was not made clear was whether the book discussion would
include ROUND THE MOON (a.k.a. ALL AROUND THE MOON), which is
usually included as the second part of FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON.
The Dover book lists both titles, but the Mercier/King volume just
calls itself FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON even though it includes
ROUND THE MOON. Miller does not include it at all.

And I will note in passing that the 1958 film version of FROM THE
EARTH TO THE MOON is terrible, and as inaccurate as the earlier
translations, providing yet another story in place of Verne's.
One feels obliged to compare this to H. G. Wells's FIRST MEN IN THE
MOON. Verne was dismissive of Wells's work, saying, "Where is this
cavorite? Let him produce it." But Verne's method of propulsion
is no better, for all his attempts to make it scientific. You can
fire a shell from a cannon, but not a capsule containing human
beings. Well, not and have them survive, anyway. Wells's work
certainly has more characterization and less infodump, and frankly
has aged better.

Evelyn Leeper

unread,

Jul 11, 2012, 9:08:21 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/10/12 11:42 PM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article<ylfk7gub...@dd-b.net>,

> David Dyer-Bennet<dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> Dan Goodman<dsg...@iphouse.com> writes:
>>

>>> On 07/10/2012 06:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>>
>>> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was widely available as a children's book
>>> in the 1950s; don't know about later times. I've read it, though only
>>> in English. I've also read Dracula and War of the Worlds.
>>

>> There was also a Disney movie, and a View Master reel set.

>> --
>
> I've seen the claim (here?) that no full English translation of 20000
> was done until quite recently (last 10 years) and that all English versions
> before that are abridged and faulty in other ways as well. (I can't
> verify that as I have yet to read any version).

That seems to be true of almost all his books. (See my comments on
Verne translations elsewhere in this thread, labeled "Verne Translations".)

Evelyn Leeper

unread,

Jul 11, 2012, 9:12:12 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/11/12 1:31 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 2012-07-11 01:13:56 -0400, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>
>> In article <jtier8$ipo$3...@dont-email.me>,
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The seminal stuff is missing...
>>>> I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>>>> Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them
>>>> well.
>>>
>>> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>>> get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.
>>>
>> I've read all those except Dracula. Vampires turn me off. I've
>> seen the movies, though, both in English and in Spanish (shot at
>> night with the same sets, different cast).
>
> The movies have almost nothing to do with the novel; they're based on
> the stage play that Stoker wrote to cash in on the novel's success.
>
>
>

Actually, the stage play was written by Hamilton Deane and later revised
by John L. Balderston. Stoker died twelve years before Deane wrote it.

Bill Gill

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:15:08 AM7/11/12

to

On 7/10/2012 5:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have
> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
>

> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

>
>
> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace
>

> OK, I have read 4 of these so we are back to
> the lists that I have not read half of.
>
> BTW, if you have not read _Foundation_ then
> you need to get busy to maintain your SF
> credentials.
>
> Lynn
I have read 3 for sure, "Dune", "Foundation", and "1984". I might
have read "The Long Tomorrow". And my response to all of them
was Duh! I didn't think any of them were particularly wonderful.

Bill

Robert Carnegie

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:35:36 AM7/11/12

to

On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 2:28:20 AM UTC+1, Howard Brazee wrote:
> > 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

> Why was this on the list? Delany has other SF that most here will
> enjoy much more.

The headline is "10 Science Fiction Novels

You Pretend to Have Read (And Why You

Should Actually Read Them)". Not any kind
of "top ten", except for being some books
that you "should" read, apparently.
I haven't yet read the article that
presumably explains why.

That also accounts for classic literature
that isn't on the list: it isn't intended
as comprehensive.

Conversely, if you /have/ read one or more
of these books, then this article technically
isn't for you.

It should be, "10 Science Fiction Novels
That Many People Pretend to Have Read,
But Have Not, And Reasons Why, If That Is
The Case, They, That Is To Say, You,
Should, In Fact, Read Them, That Is To Say,
Those That You Haven't Read, Or, For That
Matter, Have Read Once, But Forgotten,
Although, Interesting As They Are,
That Would Be Unlikely."

But does it have to fit on, say,
a magazine cover?

Me:

1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Yes

2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Yes

3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

No. Eww.

4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Yes to the original, and some of the later
additions.

5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

No

6) 1984 by George Orwell

Yes. Now forgotten, including precisely how
horrible it is - intentionally. I mean,
obviously you remember the clocks striking
thirteen and Big Brother and the X Minutes'
Anti-Semitism and the editing of history and
"Room 101", especially when it was on
television - but that's cheating. Conversely,
you may mentally have The Eurhythmics all
over it.

(I'm not referring to the _Room 101_
things-a-celebrity-hates show, presented by
Nick Hancock, Paul Merton, and now
Frank Skinner, although that's fun.)

7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

No and no. Is that a cheat, naming two?
But the Foundation is elastically defined,
too.

8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

I don't think I did.

9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

No

10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

No. I don't even know what it is.

I agree that I don't get the "pretending that
you've read it" angle. Why do that? Well,
I recognise that if you believe you know enough
about a book /without/ reading it, other people
may disagree with that. So there's that.

Kip Williams

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:40:39 AM7/11/12

to

Dan Goodman wrote:
> On 07/10/2012 09:13 PM, Butch Malahide wrote:
>> Nope. As a self-styled charlatan, I have no use for credentials.
>
> On the contrary, you need false credentials to prove you're the real thing.

During rehearsals for "Man of La Mancha," I used to paraphrase one of
Sanson Carrasco's lines as "Thou false imitation of a mock charlatan!"

The orchestra guys liked it. I don't recall if I ever said it in front
of our Carrascao.

Kip W
rasfw

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:50:16 AM7/11/12

to

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> 10 Science Fiction Novels You Pretend to Have

> Read (And Why You Should Actually Read Them):
> http://io9.com/5924625/10-science-fiction-novels-you-pretend-to-have-read-and-why-you-should-actually-read-them

>
> 1) Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson

Not interested.

> 2) Dune by Frank Herbert

Read it, liked it.

> 3) Gravity's Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon

Want to (try to) read it some day.

> 4) Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Read it. Liked it. I think the Foundation Omnibus was part
of my ten-for-a-penny when I joined SFBC way back when.

> 5) Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke

Read it. I found it unforgivably dull, and (to me) it had
more than a whiff of the lamp.

> 6) 1984 by George Orwell

Assigned in school, and I read it. The book was fine, but
the class-associated stuff...not so much.

> 7) First and Last Men and Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon

As others have pointed out, the titles are Last & First Men
and Star Maker. I have them together in one volume, and that
volume has been in the middle of my TBR pile for a long long
time. I really should pull it out and read it.

> 8) The Long Tomorrow by Leigh Brackett

I really liked this when I read it about a decade ago. Since it
seems to be one of the two least familiar titles here (with #10),
I'll say a bit more:

It's an early (1955) post-apocalyptic-due-to-nuclear-war novel,
where in the aftermath, technology and scientific knowledge are
distrusted in the extreme and severely restricted. The way of
life and tech/science level in the setting is pretty much that
which was lived pre-Industrial Revolution. The book largely
follows two teens who become intrigued with the story of some
far-away town that still embraces and explores technology.

What carried the book for me was Brackett's writing. I think
she did an especially wonderful job with her character portrayals.
Also, the premise could have lead to obvious and predictable things,
but she largely stayed away from these pitfalls.

> 9) Dhalgren by Samuel Delany

I have it, but I haven't read it yet.

> 10) Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

Never heard of this one until Lynn's post.
- Tony

Howard Brazee

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Jul 11, 2012, 9:52:10 AM7/11/12

to

On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:23:57 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
wrote:

>How an author can do something as good as Dhalgren, yet also be
>responsible for such dreck as Nova and Babel-17 is beyond my
>comprehension.

I can't understand how an author who can write something as good as
Babel-17 (even though I don't believe the premise), could be
responsible for such dreck as Dhalgren.

>
> I *assumed* I read it in translation. It felt like translated prose.
> But I read it in English.

Same as Tolkien: translated into
/twentieth century/ English. And maybe
not by a native speaker. :-)

Yes, I admit I haven't read it! Them!

David Johnston

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Jul 11, 2012, 10:25:24 AM7/11/12

to

It's my opinion that doing War of the Worlds as a period piece, while
more faithful in the technical sense, is actually less faithful to the
heart of HG Wells work. Wells wanted to capture the feeling of the
occupants of a non-European nation suddenly faced with colonialist
invasion. When faced with invaders with centuries more advanced
technology, in the end all you can do is despair and pray for divine
intervention.

One hardly gets the same feeling by showing a military more primitive
than any that currently exist getting swept away by a military force
that would probably be overwhelmed if they were to try it with us.

Robert Carnegie

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Jul 11, 2012, 10:13:22 AM7/11/12

to

On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:36:45 AM UTC+1, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <4ffd00b4$0$74856$8046...@auth.newsreader.iphouse.com>,
> Dan Goodman <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> Other end of a
> >spectrum from the early Turtledove fantasy which gives a detailed
> >explanation of how to use a chamberpot.)
>
> I thought it was a Pratchett book that explained that ...
> somebody mentioned it, and I asked which book, but the somebody
> couldn't remember.

I know you don't like Pratchett, but I don't
recall seeing that...

Harry Potter spends a lot of time in bathrooms...

A chamberpot is mentioned in _Equal Rites_, not
by name but something like "the traditional
third member of the porcelain trio"; when the
good-ish witch Granny Weatherwax is doing magic,
in a cottage bedroom, these accessories are
affected, and I think the po turns into something
peculiar that wanders off. And that when the
magic stops, everything's back where it was.

The young male lead in _Nation_ has probably
never seen Victorian civilised no-plumbing
before and most likely isn't much impressed,
but I've only read bits of that.

When Cohen the Barbarian hears that
crazed cultists are burning books (in
_The Light Fantastic_), he's shocked,
because that's almost as wasteful as
writing in them: a bundle of paper sheets
has lots of uses, for a nomad. And
Granny Weatherwax's privy has last year's
"almanac" hung up on a nail.

Indeed, Cohen's answer to the traditional[*]
"best things in life" question is
"hot water, good dentishtry and shoft
lavatory paper".

[*] Does it originate in celluloid form
with Arnold Schwarzenegger? I'm probably
asking the wrong person...

Cohen ends up in Discworld China...
not in the under-bed equipment sense,
per se. But... what do they have for
lavatories in China (traditionally)?

And the first thing you learn at the wizards'
Unseen University is never to say the number
eight aloud - well, it isn't, it's actually
things like where to eat and to hang up your
coat and where the restrooms are. This
little joke appears at least twice, I think.

Another remark that Terry Pratchett may
have borrowed, of someoneone without
common sense (regardless of other sorts)
is that you wouldn't trust them to sit
the right way around on a lavatory.

Anthony Nance

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Jul 11, 2012, 10:50:31 AM7/11/12

to

tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 6:45pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 7/10/12 7:34 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>>
>> > On 7/10/12 3:42 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>> > The seminal stuff is missing...
>> > I doubt many have read Frankenstein, or Dracula, or even 20,000 Leagues
>> > Under the Sea, or War of the Worlds; yet everyone pretends to them well.
>>
>> I haven't read Frankenstein; I tried, skimmed through it, just didn't
>> get grabbed. I've read Dracula, a LOT of Verne, and a lot of Wells.
>>

>> --
>> Sea Wasp
>
>
> Add to that version of the list, most all classics because you already
> seen the movie.
> Moby Dick, To Kill a Mockingbird, Ivanhoe, Dumas, and so on.
> I went back and started reading those novels made into movies when I
> discovered how significantly different they could be. Frankenstein
> was a revelation. Finding the real monster is the doctor who was a
> failure as a parent. That Ivanhoe is not the central character but
> the jewish healer Rebecca.
> Alan Moores The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen went back to the
> source and motivated me to do the same.

Let's see...
I don't remember how much of Frankenstein I've read. It was an
assigned book for some of the sophomore classes in high school
(but not mine - I think we read Andromeda Strain in parallel),
so plenty of copies were around and available.

I haven't read Dracula, but I've read a lot of Verne and Wells,
including the two above.

Moby Dick - tried twice to read this many years ago, only to
get disinterested and drift on to other things

To Kill a Mockingbird - I greatly enjoyed this book

Ivanhoe, Dumas - Hmm. I don't think I've read these, though
(supporting your point) I'm familiar with
the tales.

Interesting thread.
Tony

Dorothy J Heydt

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Jul 11, 2012, 10:58:06 AM7/11/12

to

In article <4ffd7abd$0$11548$607e...@cv.net>,

Yes, but I haven't seen those. Only the 1931 ones.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.