What is the definition of "milsf" ?

[Lynn McGuire]

After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
would someone like to educate me as to what the
definition of "milsf" is ?

Thanks,
Lynn

[Andrew Plotkin]

Here, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> definition of "milsf" is ?

Science fiction that I didn't like about a member of the military.

--Z

--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*

[David Johnston]

Just science fiction about military operations/life (space navies included)

[Lynn McGuire]

So _Darkship_Thieves_ by Sarah Hoyt would not qualify
http://www.amazon.com/Darkship-Thieves-Baen-Science-Fiction/dp/1439133980/
as milsf then ?

Lynn

[James Silverton]

A lot of "military" SF seems to involve large morons yelling, I
paraphrase, "We'll homosexually rape the illegitimates."


--


James Silverton, Potomac

I'm *not* not.jim....@verizon.net

[Quadibloc]

On Sep 8, 2:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> definition of "milsf" is ?

Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by David
Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth Moon.

A lot of today's mil-sf is formulaic genre fiction, however; there is
quite a bit that is simply riding on a popular bandwagon and is not
really worthy of being taken seriously.

Bolo by Keith Laumer and Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein might
be considered to be two of the books that probably serve as
inspirations to those who now populate the genre. Martin Caidin might
also be considered as a source of inspiration.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in news:j4b7re$rg6$1@dont-
email.me:

> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> definition of "milsf" is ?
>

Er, pretty much the same as "hard sf": Whatever the person speaking
says it is.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:39cb9eab-e5c1-4542...@cd4g2000vbb.googlegroups.
com:

It's hard to think of milsf without thinking of David Drake. Or
even Pournelle, for that matter.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:00:09 -0500, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
wrote:

I certainly wouldn't call that milsf.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[art...@yahoo.com]

It's like "milf" with an additional screw.

[Raymond Daley]

"James Silverton" <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:j4bbh9$kpr$2...@dont-email.me...

> A lot of "military" SF seems to involve large morons yelling

Thats because most milsf is written by former grunts, dogfaces or ground
troops classed as cannon fodder.
The US Army & Marine Corps isn't real big on its troops thinking for
themselves.
It prefers them to obey orders and die like men.

Its why Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War" is so violent. Vietnam will do
that to a writer.
I'm not sure what Robert Heinleins excuse for "Starship Troopers" is as the
fucker never saw any action (neither of the ships he served on saw any
action during his time aboard them) and has little clue what enlisted men do
having served his whole (relatively short) Navy career as a junior officer.

[Jack Tingle]

On 9/8/2011 5:00 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

I'd agree with that. It's more space opera.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[David Johnston]

It would not.

[Jack Tingle]

On 9/8/2011 8:15 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:
> "James Silverton"<not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:j4bbh9$kpr$2...@dont-email.me...
>> A lot of "military" SF seems to involve large morons yelling
>
> Thats because most milsf is written by former grunts, dogfaces or ground
> troops classed as cannon fodder.

> The US Army& Marine Corps isn't real big on its troops thinking for

> themselves.
> It prefers them to obey orders and die like men.

Wow! Is that ever wrong. The US military services are famous
historically for the amount of discretion and judgment allowed non-coms
and low ranking officers[1]. Even privates are expected to think, within
the limits of their rank and knowledge of the situation.

Yes, they are expected to obey and promptly carry out legal orders, but
they have a lot of leeway in how they execute them, and the right to
question those orders (except in active combat). Any US soldier has the
responsibility to _not_ obey an illegal order. Military jurisprudence
has usually backed lower ranking personnel up. For example, Army warrant
officers who are pilots-in-command of helicopters have disobeyed higher
ranking line officers who were passengers, and been supported by
courts-martial.[2]

And as G.S. Patton, Jr. so famously pointed out, they don't expect them
to die for their country. They expect them to make the enemy die for his
country.

Good milsf (as opposed to crappy to average milsf) can illuminate these
kinds of issues.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

[1] Field grade officers, major and above, have always had great
discretion in almost all armies.

[2] The story I was told in the Vietnam era had a W.O.1 in command of a
Huey disobey a Col. about turning his aircraft around and picking up
more troops during a retreat. The W.O. correctly told the Col. the A/C
was fully loaded and he would pick up more troops when he dropped off
the load he had. The Col. pulled a .45, and the W.O. commanded his door
gunner to cover the Col. with his flex-mount. After combat, a
court-martial sided with the W.O. and his gunner.

The thought of shooting the pilot and then unleashing a .30 flex-mount
inside a flying Huey makes one blanch. Emotions were apparently running
high.

The story was presented as one of the kind of cases when a much lower
ranking officer was right to not obey a much higher ranking one, since
obeying would have led to more loss of life (and an A/C), not less. In
addition, the pilot-in-command, commissioned or not, outranks the Great
God Jehovah himself when the A/C is in flight, making the Col.'s order
illegitimate. They stopped short of charging the Col. with mutiny,
although it was noted that he could have been.

[James Nicoll]

In article <j4b7re$rg6$1...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
>would someone like to educate me as to what the
>definition of "milsf" is ?
>

Mom I'd like to stroke fondly.

I have to say the MILSF books I keep getting sent are
quite disappointing. There are never any MILSFs at all!

--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[Mary Shafer]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

> On Sep 8, 2:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> > After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> > would someone like to educate me as to what the
> > definition of "milsf" is ?
>
> Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by David
> Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth Moon.

_Hammer's Slammers_, David Drake. The third (and last) volume of the
collection came out fairly recently.

Mary "Really good if you like tanks."
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
We didn't just do weird stuff at Dryden, we wrote reports about it.
reunite....@gmail.com or mil...@qnet.com
Visit my blog at http://digitalknitter.blogspot.com/

[James Nicoll]

In article <fvti675v0d2am9166...@4ax.com>,

Mary Shafer <reunite....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:27:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca>
>wrote:
>
>> On Sep 8, 2:15�pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> > After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
>> > would someone like to educate me as to what the
>> > definition of "milsf" is ?
>>
>> Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by David
>> Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth Moon.
>
>_Hammer's Slammers_, David Drake. The third (and last) volume of the
>collection came out fairly recently.
>

Did the short stories really all fit into just three volumes?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <Xns9F5A97A98D3...@69.16.186.7>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>news:39cb9eab-e5c1-4542...@cd4g2000vbb.googlegroups.
>com:
>
>> On Sep 8, 2:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>>> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
>>> would someone like to educate me as to what the
>>> definition of "milsf" is ?
>>
>> Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by
>> David Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth
>> Moon.
>>
>> A lot of today's mil-sf is formulaic genre fiction, however;
>> there is quite a bit that is simply riding on a popular
>> bandwagon and is not really worthy of being taken seriously.
>>
>> Bolo by Keith Laumer and Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein
>> might be considered to be two of the books that probably serve
>> as inspirations to those who now populate the genre. Martin
>> Caidin might also be considered as a source of inspiration.
>>
>It's hard to think of milsf without thinking of David Drake. Or
>even Pournelle, for that matter.
>

But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 21:07:17 -0400, Jack Tingle
<wjti...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<news:j4bos4$6v0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 9/8/2011 8:15 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:

>> "James Silverton"<not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:j4bbh9$kpr$2...@dont-email.me...

>>> A lot of "military" SF seems to involve large morons yelling

>> Thats because most milsf is written by former grunts,
>> dogfaces or ground troops classed as cannon fodder. The
>> US Army& Marine Corps isn't real big on its troops
>> thinking for themselves. It prefers them to obey orders
>> and die like men.

> Wow! Is that ever wrong. The US military services are
> famous historically for the amount of discretion and
> judgment allowed non-coms and low ranking officers[1].
> Even privates are expected to think, within the limits
> of their rank and knowledge of the situation.

I'm pretty sure that he's also wrong about the writers. The
ones who come to mind whom I know to have had military
backgrounds were officers.

[...]

Brian

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sep 9, 4:10 am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> In article <Xns9F5A97A98D39Ftaustingm...@69.16.186.7>,
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy  <tausti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in

> >news:39cb9eab-e5c1-4542...@cd4g2000vbb.googlegroups.
> >com:
>
> >> On Sep 8, 2:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> >>> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> >>> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> >>> definition of "milsf" is ?
>
> >> Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by
> >> David Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth
> >> Moon.
>
> >> A lot of today's mil-sf is formulaic genre fiction, however;
> >> there is quite a bit that is simply riding on a popular
> >> bandwagon and is not really worthy of being taken seriously.
>
> >> Bolo by Keith Laumer and Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein
> >> might be considered to be two of the books that probably serve
> >> as inspirations to those who now populate the genre. Martin
> >> Caidin might also be considered as a source of inspiration.
>
> >It's hard to think of milsf without thinking of David Drake. Or
> >even Pournelle, for that matter.
>
> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.

"Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.

[Robert Carnegie]

You know, I thought we'd go this way, but I couldn't think of a way to
do it that wouldn't be crass. Particularly when a lady posed the
question.

[Lonnie Clay]

On Friday, September 9, 2011 4:02:37 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sep 9, 12:48 am, "art...@yahoo.com" <art...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Sep 8, 4:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l....@winsim.com> wrote:
> >
> > > After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> > > would someone like to educate me as to what the
> > > definition of "milsf" is ?
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Lynn
> >
> > It's like "milf" with an additional screw.
>
> You know, I thought we'd go this way, but I couldn't think of a way to
> do it that wouldn't be crass. Particularly when a lady posed the
> question.

Space crews screw up in space as procrastinating officers scramble to cope.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

[Raymond Daley]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:1xr417rt1p3tx.94btu2thmowp$.dlg@40tude.net...

> I'm pretty sure that he's also wrong about the writers. The
> ones who come to mind whom I know to have had military
> backgrounds were officers.

I'm only aware of 2 SF writers with military careers, Joe Haldeman (I can't
find any reference to what rank he was but as a Vietnam draftee I highly
doubt he was an officer) and Robert Heinlein who was an Lt.

Haldemans writing I trust because not only did he see action but he won a
purple heart. He was also kind enough to personally respond to my email
thanking him for helping me through the first Gulf War.

Heinlein was invalided out with tuberculosis.

If my view of the US military is clouded then blame Hollywood for their piss
poor portrayal of them.

[Greg Weeks]

On Friday, September 9, 2011 7:40:16 AM UTC-4, Raymond Daley wrote:
> I'm only aware of 2 SF writers with military careers, Joe Haldeman (I can't
> find any reference to what rank he was but as a Vietnam draftee I highly
> doubt he was an officer) and Robert Heinlein who was an Lt.

Elizabeth Moon, John Ringo, David Drake all served in the military. That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I missed many more.

Greg Weeks

[James Nicoll]

In article <406d4faa-4835-47c9...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com>,

Hal Clement flew bombers in WWII. Fred Pohl and Cyril Kornbluth both
served.

Jerry Pournelle served in Korea.

Lots of authors have military careers, many with active duty.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 9/9/11 7:40 AM, Raymond Daley wrote:
> "Brian M. Scott"<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> news:1xr417rt1p3tx.94btu2thmowp$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> I'm pretty sure that he's also wrong about the writers. The
>> ones who come to mind whom I know to have had military
>> backgrounds were officers.
>
> I'm only aware of 2 SF writers with military careers, Joe Haldeman (I can't
> find any reference to what rank he was but as a Vietnam draftee I highly
> doubt he was an officer) and Robert Heinlein who was an Lt.

In addition to others mentioned, Barbara Hambly was a U.S. Marine.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Robert Carnegie]

Is there mil-sf /without/ space war? Or is it already too late for
that, with real outer space now crowded with military spy satellites,
GPS, and anything else from the U.S. Star Wars project that may have
worked better than we've been led to believe?

Arthur C. Clarke served in the Second World War; most of a generation
did. But I don't think of him as a mil-sf author - although isn't
that tale with a spy hiding on a Solar-system asteroid, one of his?
For that matter, does Isaac Asimov (drafted) count with for instance
"C-Chute"?

As a student Stanislaw Lem "refused to tailor his answers to the
prevailing Lysenkoism and failed his final examinations on purpose so
as not to be obliged to become a military doctor", according to
Wikipedia and whatever source it cites, presumably.

[David Johnston]

On 9/9/2011 7:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sep 8, 9:34 pm, David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On 9/8/2011 2:15 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
>>> would someone like to educate me as to what the
>>> definition of "milsf" is ?
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lynn
>>
>> Just science fiction about military operations/life (space navies included)
>
> Is there mil-sf /without/ space war?

Yes. For example a story about Belisarius fighting off invaders from
the future-uture-uture qualifies. So does Hammer's Slammers, where
there may be space elements, but we never see them.

[Robert Carnegie]

Okay, you've convinced me you're sober. ;-)

[Lynn McGuire]

Try it again. 6'1" extremely bald male in middle
age. Miserably failing in my campaign to remove
sexism from names. First name of Michael.

Lynn

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 12:40:16 +0100, "Raymond Daley"
<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>I'm only aware of 2 SF writers with military careers, Joe Haldeman (I can't
>find any reference to what rank he was but as a Vietnam draftee I highly
>doubt he was an officer) and Robert Heinlein who was an Lt.

One author who helped define the new milSF subgenre is David Drake,
who has used his personal experience in his writing.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

On Sep 8, 4:27 pm, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Sep 8, 2:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>
> > After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> > would someone like to educate me as to what the
> > definition of "milsf" is ?
>

> Examples of the genre include the Honor Harrington series by David
> Weber, and many books by John Ringo and even Elizabeth Moon.
>
> A lot of today's mil-sf is formulaic genre fiction, however; there is
> quite a bit that is simply riding on a popular bandwagon and is not
> really worthy of being taken seriously.
>
> Bolo by Keith Laumer and Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein might
> be considered to be two of the books that probably serve as
> inspirations to those who now populate the genre. Martin Caidin might
> also be considered as a source of inspiration.

Dickson's Dorsai books are pretty important
in the history of this sub-genre.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

On Sep 9, 12:50 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Sep 2011 21:07:17 -0400, Jack Tingle

> <wjtin...@hotmail.com> wrote in

> <news:j4bos4$6v0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On 9/8/2011 8:15 PM, Raymond Daley wrote:

> >> "James Silverton"<not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>  wrote in message

> >>news:j4bbh9$kpr$2...@dont-email.me...
> >>> A lot of "military" SF seems to involve large morons yelling
> >> Thats because most milsf is written by former grunts,
> >> dogfaces or ground troops classed as cannon fodder. The
> >> US Army&  Marine Corps isn't real big on its troops
> >> thinking for themselves. It prefers them to obey orders
> >> and die like men.
> > Wow! Is that ever wrong. The US military services are
> > famous  historically for the amount of discretion and
> > judgment allowed non-coms  and low ranking officers[1].
> > Even privates are expected to think, within  the limits
> > of their rank and knowledge of the situation.
>
> I'm pretty sure that he's also wrong about the writers.  The
> ones who come to mind whom I know to have had military
> backgrounds were officers.

Not Haldeman.

[Richard R. Hershberger]

Don't feel bad about this. If a Hall of Fame receiver for the
Pittsburgh Steelers couldn't succeed in this, what hope have you?

[Lonnie Clay]

On Friday, September 9, 2011 8:03:18 AM UTC-7, Robert Carnegie wrote:

Whoa! I'd better back off right pronto, or you'll be accusing me of cleanliness next! I might lose my $985 per month mental disability pension if things go too far!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

[garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk]

Alexandr Kazantsev made an army carreer (up to colonel) during WWII, saw active duty
and was awarded several orders.

I won't be surprised at all if many Soviet writers of that time were
involved in the army one way or another.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2011 12:40:16 +0100, Raymond Daley

<raymon...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
<news:oZmaq.788$KC5...@newsfe26.ams2> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
> news:1xr417rt1p3tx.94btu2thmowp$.dlg@40tude.net...

>> I'm pretty sure that he's also wrong about the writers. The
>> ones who come to mind whom I know to have had military
>> backgrounds were officers.

> I'm only aware of 2 SF writers with military careers, Joe
> Haldeman (I can't find any reference to what rank he was
> but as a Vietnam draftee I highly doubt he was an
> officer) and Robert Heinlein who was an Lt.

I'd forgotten about Haldeman. For some reason I'd thought
that David Drake was an officer, but on checking I find that
he was an enlisted interrogator. Elizabeth Moon was a 1st
lieutenant in the Marine Corps. Tom Kratman retired from
the army as a lieutenant colonel. John G. Hemry ('Jack
Campbell') is a retired naval officer.

[...]

> If my view of the US military is clouded then blame
> Hollywood for their piss poor portrayal of them.

I wouldn't know: I've very little interest in films. My own
view is greatly influenced by my time in the army 40 years
ago. In my experience enlisted personnel who demonstrated
initiative and foresight were generally highly valued. What
I've read of today's army suggests that this should if
anything be even more true today.

Brian

[Quadibloc]

On Sep 9, 9:38 am, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:

> Try it again.  6'1" extremely bald male in middle
> age.  Miserably failing in my campaign to remove
> sexism from names.  First name of Michael.

Ah. Perhaps if you spelled your first name as "Lin" it would help.

I remember there was recently a famous actress whose first name was
one normally associated with males; perhaps it even was Michael. Ah
yes... Michael Learned.

John Savard

[Lynn McGuire]

Nope, I am campaigning for all women to go by "Lynne".

Lynn

[jack...@bright.net]

Robert Carnegie wrote:

>Arthur C. Clarke served in the Second World War; most of a generation
>did. But I don't think of him as a mil-sf author - although isn't
>that tale with a spy hiding on a Solar-system asteroid, one of his?

One of the moons of Mars, "Hide and Seek."
THE book influenced by his war years would be _Glide Path_.

>For that matter, does Isaac Asimov (drafted) count with for instance
>"C-Chute"?

...and a cry went through the Pentagon, "The War's over! It's safe to
draft Isaac Asimov!"
Again, I think he's credited to his experiences the story of using
bureaucrateese to save non-human sentients from the Galactic Empire
("Blind Alley"?) To me, "C-Chute" seems more influenced by WWII
movies.

>As a student Stanislaw Lem "refused to tailor his answers to the
>prevailing Lysenkoism and failed his final examinations on purpose so
>as not to be obliged to become a military doctor", according to
>Wikipedia and whatever source it cites, presumably.

Reminds me of the (apocryphal?) story of West Point Cadet Edgar Poe's
response to the order to wear gloves and dress sword to inspection.
Can't recall if he wrote anything mil, in or out of his sf.

--
-Jack

[Howard Brazee]

Pohl's "The Way The Future Was" is a delightful autobiography. He
does tell how his draft district included Chinatown, so he could have
avoided being drafted altogether. But when he did sign up, they
removed all of his fillings and replaced them with cold weather
fillings that he could use in Norway - then sent him to North Africa.

[Robert Carnegie]

Okay... I think I'll still hold back, since there may be a lady here
someplace, anyway. And maybe you'd be offended, too. You may be no
lady but you don't deserve that. ;-)

[Robert Bannister]

I have said this before: I have met a number of Australian men with that
name, but they all spell it "Lyn".

--
Robert Bannister

[David DeLaney]

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>On 10/09/11 3:48 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 9/9/2011 2:42 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> Ah. Perhaps if you spelled your first name as "Lin" it would help.
>>

>> Nope, I am campaigning for all women to go by "Lynne".
>

>I have said this before: I have met a number of Australian men with that
>name, but they all spell it "Lyn".

And I will bet a silk pyjama
I'll not read any three-N drama!

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Robert A. Woodward]

In article
<3d85109f-57e0-4c91...@w28g2000yqw.googlegroups.com>
,

David Drake appeared to have been an enlisted man; I am not certain
about Jerry Pournelle (but if he was an officer, I suspect that he
held no rank higher than Lieutenant). John Ringo was a non-com. I
can't find anything about Gordon Dickson's WWII career, but I
suspect that he wasn't an officer.

OTOH, John Hemry was a Lt. Commander (USN) and Thomas Kratman
retired as a Lt. Colonel.

--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>

[Mark Zenier]

In article <3d85109f-57e0-4c91...@w28g2000yqw.googlegroups.com>,
David Dyer-Bennet <illeg...@gmail.com> wrote:

and Glen Cook.

Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

[djinn]

On Sep 10, 1:42 pm, "Robert A. Woodward" <rober...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> In article
> <3d85109f-57e0-4c91-a926-5810dd51e...@w28g2000yqw.googlegroups.com>
> ,

IIRC Kratman has posted that he thinks some of the differences between
his writing and that of Ringo and Weber come from their different
military experience: Officer, NCO and lower enlisted respectively.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

> On Sep 9, 4:10�am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

>> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.

> "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.

Um? What? Am I missing the joke?

Kimball Kinnison does some undercover work, but there are really only
two big chunks of that (Wild Bill Williamson / Miner's Rest, and Traska
Gannel taking Thrale). And he's *so much* not working within police
procedures.

[bozo]

On Sep 8, 1:15 pm, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> definition of "milsf" is ?
>
> Thanks,
> Lynn

oh i thought you said misfit

[Robert Carnegie]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>
> > On Sep 9, 4:10�am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
> >> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.
>
> > "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.
>
> Um? What? Am I missing the joke?

Not missing it, but, apparently, not admiring it. :-(

> Kimball Kinnison does some undercover work, but there are really only
> two big chunks of that (Wild Bill Williamson / Miner's Rest, and Traska
> Gannel taking Thrale). And he's *so much* not working within police
> procedures.

Yeah, he's detached. "Gray Lensman".

I was just reaching for "What is lensman if it isn't mil-sf." Yeah.
Reaching. ;-)

[Carl Dershem]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> typed in news:j4b7re$rg6$1@dont-
email.me:

> After getting schooled on the definition of "hard sf",
> would someone like to educate me as to what the
> definition of "milsf" is ?
>
> Thanks,
> Lynn

It's an acronym for "Mother I'd like..."

(re-reading)

Never mind.

;)

Nah - MILSF is, as are all genres (and sub-genres), a spectrum of
things with a military focus. SOme are well done, some ain't
(Sturgeon's law always applies). SOme are written by those who
know, some are written by those who think they know, and some are
written by clueless, feckless wannabes.

Long as I don't have to read the latter, I don't care - doesn't harm
me at all.

cd

[Moriarty]

On Sep 10, 5:42 am, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 9:38 am, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>
> > Try it again.  6'1" extremely bald male in middle
> > age.  Miserably failing in my campaign to remove
> > sexism from names.  First name of Michael.
>
> Ah. Perhaps if you spelled your first name as "Lin" it would help.

I always thought Lin Carter was female. Then I saw a photo and the
beard gave it away.

-Moriarty

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:27:38 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
<blu...@ivillage.com> wrote:

>I always thought Lin Carter was female. Then I saw a photo and the
>beard gave it away.

They can do that.

That's why so many of us never questioned Andre Norton's gender. It
doesn't work to disguise one's gender by changing one's name and
publishing one's photo on the back of the book. For most people, at
least.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <ylfkfwk3...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>> On Sep 9, 4:10 am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

>>> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.
>
>> "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.
>
>Um? What? Am I missing the joke?
>
>Kimball Kinnison does some undercover work, but there are really only
>two big chunks of that (Wild Bill Williamson / Miner's Rest,

"Williams".

> Traska Gannel taking Thrale).

Since Kinnison's activities as Gannel including working his way up
through Thrale's military ranks, and involve a lot of military action,
this shows that "undercover" and "military" aren't mutually exclusive.

Other undercover work:
- Scouting out the pirate base on Boyssia (Blakeslee)
- Investigating thionite dealing on Radelix ("Fordyce")
- Posing as a fence while working his way to Lonabar ("Cartiff")
- Investigating Radelix ("White")
- Posing as a drug-runner ("Thyron")

That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".

<scoff>

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.

[Greg Goss]

I always thought Libby was one of Heinlein's weaker candidates. I
guess the rule that it's hard to write about people smarter than you
are applies.
--
"If the Gods Had Meant Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates" (Jim Hightower)

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Sep 9, 4:10�am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>>
>> >> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.
>>
>> > "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.
>>
>> Um? What? Am I missing the joke?
>
> Not missing it, but, apparently, not admiring it. :-(

Okay; I can live with that.

>> Kimball Kinnison does some undercover work, but there are really only
>> two big chunks of that (Wild Bill Williamson / Miner's Rest, and Traska
>> Gannel taking Thrale). And he's *so much* not working within police
>> procedures.
>
> Yeah, he's detached. "Gray Lensman".
>
> I was just reaching for "What is lensman if it isn't mil-sf." Yeah.
> Reaching. ;-)

Understandable to try, though, I agree. One person not liking it is not
definitive.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:

> In article <ylfkfwk3...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>>> On Sep 9, 4:10 am, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>>>> But interestingly, neither Smith nor Nowlan seem to be considered mil-sf.
>>
>>> "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.
>>
>>Um? What? Am I missing the joke?
>>
>>Kimball Kinnison does some undercover work, but there are really only
>>two big chunks of that (Wild Bill Williamson / Miner's Rest,
>
> "Williams".

Of course, yes.

>> Traska Gannel taking Thrale).
>
> Since Kinnison's activities as Gannel including working his way up
> through Thrale's military ranks, and involve a lot of military action,
> this shows that "undercover" and "military" aren't mutually exclusive.
>
> Other undercover work:
> - Scouting out the pirate base on Boyssia (Blakeslee)
> - Investigating thionite dealing on Radelix ("Fordyce")
> - Posing as a fence while working his way to Lonabar ("Cartiff")
> - Investigating Radelix ("White")

Wait, "White"? Don't remember the name. I remember him undercover on
Radelix, though. Is "White" the last name of the other SF author he
uses, Sybley something?

> - Posing as a drug-runner ("Thyron")
>
> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".

They're not about ordinary military engagements and not about ordinary
military relationships, though, so in many ways they don't fit the model
very well.

> <scoff>

So you do!

[Michael Stemper]

In article <ylfkobyp...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>> In article <ylfkfwk3...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

>>>> "Doc" Smith? Police procedural, mostly.
>>>
>>>Um? What? Am I missing the joke?

>> Other undercover work:
>> - Scouting out the pirate base on Boyssia (Blakeslee)
>> - Investigating thionite dealing on Radelix ("Fordyce")
>> - Posing as a fence while working his way to Lonabar ("Cartiff")
>> - Investigating Radelix ("White")
>
>Wait, "White"? Don't remember the name. I remember him undercover on
>Radelix, though. Is "White" the last name of the other SF author he
>uses, Sybley something?

"Sybly Whyte," he said zymolosely.

>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>
>They're not about ordinary military engagements

What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?

It might be urban legend, but I'd always heard that the _Directrix_
directly inspired real-world use of a similar command and control
center.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 9/12/11 1:58 PM, Michael Stemper wrote:

>
> It might be urban legend, but I'd always heard that the _Directrix_
> directly inspired real-world use of a similar command and control
> center.
>

Not urban legend, fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._E._Smith#Influence_on_science_and_the_military


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[David Dyer-Bennet]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:

> In article <ylfkobyp...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:

>>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>>
>>They're not about ordinary military engagements
>
> What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
> in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?

Well, they're not. But more to the point, the engagement is a very
small part of the book.

> It might be urban legend, but I'd always heard that the _Directrix_
> directly inspired real-world use of a similar command and control
> center.

Yeah, I heard that too.

[Raymond Daley]

<jack...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:eoqk67lm270en5dcn...@4ax.com...

> Reminds me of the (apocryphal?) story of West Point Cadet Edgar Poe's
> response to the order to wear gloves and dress sword to inspection.

Military minds can be particularly arsey.
In my last week in the RAF before returning to civilian life I tested the
regs to their limits, specifically dress regs.
Station orders for working dress at that time stated "Ties to be worn".

"I'm having a fucking piece of that!" I thought and wore my tie everywhere
but my neck.
Our Station Warrant Officer tried everything he could to get me for it, I
just quoted the regs right back at him

"Station SRO's state "Ties to be worn" however Sir, it is not specific in
the location of aforementioned tie"
Before the week was out the Station Dress regs had been changed and they
even made a station wide tannoy stating ties were to be worn around the neck
only.
I got to wear my tie around my head, both wrists, both knees, both elbows
and around the neck back to front ;-)

[David DeLaney]

Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:

>David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>>
>>They're not about ordinary military engagements
>
>What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
>in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?

Yep - the Galactic Patrol is what they have _instead_ of militaries for each
separate planet. (But at least they've _mostly_ got things so each planet is
one political piece...)

>It might be urban legend, but I'd always heard that the _Directrix_
>directly inspired real-world use of a similar command and control center.

Z9M9Z! Wikipedia confirms, in "Influence on science and the military" in the
E. E. Smith page. "You, sir, were 100% right. As the Japanese Navy - not the
hypothetical Boskonian fleet - learned at an appalling cost."

[Michael Stemper]

In article <slrnj6svi...@gatekeeper.vic.com>, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>>David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>>>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>>>
>>>They're not about ordinary military engagements
>>
>>What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
>>in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?
>
>Yep - the Galactic Patrol is what they have _instead_ of militaries for each
>separate planet. (But at least they've _mostly_ got things so each planet is
>one political piece...)

I'm not sure what you're saying here. What's coming across is "it wasn't
military because the planets of Civilization didn't fight among themselves,
only against Boskonia." I can't believe that's what you meant, though.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

[David DeLaney]

Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>>Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>>>David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>>>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>>>>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>>>>
>>>>They're not about ordinary military engagements
>>>
>>>What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
>>>in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?
>>
>>Yep - the Galactic Patrol is what they have _instead_ of militaries for each
>>separate planet. (But at least they've _mostly_ got things so each planet is
>>one political piece...)
>
>I'm not sure what you're saying here. What's coming across is "it wasn't
>military because the planets of Civilization didn't fight among themselves,
>only against Boskonia." I can't believe that's what you meant, though.

No, almost the opposite, sorry for any confusion; I was replying against the
other David's stipulation that they weren't MILITARY stuff, by noting that
they were what served in the place of militariness for that vast united
Civilization, so it counts as mil-SF.

[Michael Stemper]

In article <slrnj71ll...@gatekeeper.vic.com>, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>>>Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>>>>David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:

>>>>>> That being said, there's a heck of a lot of military stuff in the
>>>>>> Lensmen books, and I scoff at the concept that they're not "mil-sf".
>>>>>
>>>>>They're not about ordinary military engagements
>>>>
>>>>What, sunbeams and negaspheres of planetary anti-mass aren't covered
>>>>in the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks?
>>>
>>>Yep - the Galactic Patrol is what they have _instead_ of militaries for each
>>>separate planet. (But at least they've _mostly_ got things so each planet is
>>>one political piece...)
>>
>>I'm not sure what you're saying here. What's coming across is "it wasn't
>>military because the planets of Civilization didn't fight among themselves,
>>only against Boskonia." I can't believe that's what you meant, though.
>
>No, almost the opposite, sorry for any confusion; I was replying against the
>other David's stipulation that they weren't MILITARY stuff, by noting that
>they were what served in the place of militariness for that vast united
>Civilization, so it counts as mil-SF.

Okay, thanks. I can put the cognitive dissonance back on the shelf
for a while. (But not too far back!)

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

[David DeLaney]

Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>>No, almost the opposite, sorry for any confusion; I was replying against the
>>other David's stipulation that they weren't MILITARY stuff, by noting that
>>they were what served in the place of militariness for that vast united
>>Civilization, so it counts as mil-SF.
>
>Okay, thanks. I can put the cognitive dissonance back on the shelf
>for a while. (But not too far back!)

Yeah, if you're reading Usenet you sort of have to keep it handy. Next to the
towel for drying off the screen and keyboard...

Dave "and on top of the flamethrower" DeLaney

[William December Starr]

In article <j01l67p5f0hna94ri...@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> said:

> Pohl's "The Way The Future Was" is a delightful autobiography. He
> does tell how his draft district included Chinatown, so he could
> have avoided being drafted altogether.

[*]? I'm not seeing the connecton between one and the other.

-- wds

[Howard Brazee]

On 18 Sep 2011 12:10:41 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December

In WWII, each draft district had to match a quota. There were
*lots* of volunteers from Chinatown, so the quota was easily met
without additional conscription.