World, meet Plan. Plan, meet World
James Nicoll
when people are putting it together [1] and then there is the actual
goverment in practice, which is sometimes a little different. Take,
for example, the Canadian Senate, which was supposed to be the house
of sober second thought and which has sometimes not even got as far
as the sober part before derailing.
I can think of two examples where theory got nutted when it
met practice: AN ENEMY OF THE STATE, where the motivating philosophy
of the revolutionary protagonist never caught on (and is widely
regarded as a bit peculiar by the time of HEALER, written first and
set later) and THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, where thanks to a timely
death and an apparent lobotomy, hands other than the original cabal
shaped what was to come.
Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
1: In those cases where they did, rather than letting it evolve
naturally. In general, SF prefers nations with definite points of
origin, probably because they are tidier.
--
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Tim McDaniel
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
Leave aside Rome-in-Space (the Flandry stories, The General series by
Stirling and/or Drake and/or ...), or other examples of fiction where
you can asily read the serial number under the perfunctory file marks.
You might consider Katherine Kurtz, _Camber the Heretic_. Cinhil set
up a regency council of five regents for his son Alroy. One of them
was his friend, a bishop (who happens to be [spoiler]), who is
supposed to be a calming and pro-Deryni voice. I think decisions had
to be unanimous. However, one of the regents had slipped in another
law into a stack of things for Cinhil to sign, and he had. It
provided that under such-and-so conditions (which happened to include
the regency council) one member of a council could be removed and
replaced by a vote of the rest of the council. Which happens fairly
soon, of course, they bounce the bishop and put in a crony, and
Gwynnedd is on its way to the Deryni Purges.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Eric Walker
> . . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
While it's only a chapter (Chapter 2, to be exact) rather than the
focus of the book in which it appears, the world of New Concept, as
mentioned in Jack Vance's _Book of Dreams_, seems an excellent
exemplar. The quotation that opens the chapter, nominally from
_Civilized Ideas and Civilized Worlds_, by Michael Yeaton, is
especially apposite.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://greatsfandf.com/
norrin
James Nicoll wrote:
> There is the ideal of the government, as it is envisioned
> when people are putting it together [1] and then there is the actual
> goverment in practice, which is sometimes a little different. Take,
> for example, the Canadian Senate, which was supposed to be the house
> of sober second thought and which has sometimes not even got as far
> as the sober part before derailing.
>
> I can think of two examples where theory got nutted when it
> met practice: AN ENEMY OF THE STATE, where the motivating philosophy
> of the revolutionary protagonist never caught on (and is widely
> regarded as a bit peculiar by the time of HEALER, written first and
> set later) and THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, where thanks to a timely
> death and an apparent lobotomy, hands other than the original cabal
> shaped what was to come.
IIRC, two out of four members of the cabal survived. That's
half of the brains and sixty percent of the hands. They
didn't become the new warden, but they were important
members of the community.
> Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
The results of the revolution in DUNE are a surprise to the
reader, if not the protagonist. There are other books by
Frank Herbert where the protagonists encounter unexpected
consequences of their actions and choices.
Robert Shaw
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
>
> Leave aside Rome-in-Space (the Flandry stories, The General series by
> Stirling and/or Drake and/or ...), or other examples of fiction where
> you can asily read the serial number under the perfunctory file marks.
>
> You might consider Katherine Kurtz, _Camber the Heretic_. Cinhil set
> up a regency council of five regents for his son Alroy. One of them
> was his friend, a bishop (who happens to be [spoiler]), who is
> supposed to be a calming and pro-Deryni voice. I think decisions had
> to be unanimous. However, one of the regents had slipped in another
> law into a stack of things for Cinhil to sign, and he had. It
> provided that under such-and-so conditions (which happened to include
> the regency council) one member of a council could be removed and
> replaced by a vote of the rest of the council. Which happens fairly
> soon, of course
Later, one of the regents who cooked up this scheme is themselves
removed by it, and I think executed - standard irony.
--
'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett
Robert Shaw
Hallvard B Furuseth
> There is the ideal of the government, as it is envisioned
> when people are putting it together [1] and then there is the actual
> goverment in practice, which is sometimes a little different.
> Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
I can't imagine the Barrayaran government works like anyone
intended, though it's beginning to resemble someone's idea of a
government now.
More generally, there ought to be plenty of examples to find among
Our Heroes' enemies, whoever Our Heroes are.
Maybe not what you are looking for but:
Spoilers for some others follow...
In _For the Duration_ by Poul Anderson, the successful rebels'
government find they have to just keep on acting like the ruthless
dictator they replaced. ("But it's only for the duration of the
emergency...")
Similarly, there is the government of the People's Republic of Haven,
desperately replaying the French Revolution to stay alive. From
<http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0671319809/0671319809___7.htm>:
[Rob Pierre] laughed bitterly, without mirth. Smash the system.
Oh, that was a good one! He'd done just that, wiped away the
Legislaturalists (...) He'd achieved all that in less than a
single T-year, at the cost of more thousands of lives than he
dared remember . . . and "the system" sneered at his efforts.
--
Hallvard
Nancy Lebovitz
>when people are putting it together [1] and then there is the actual
>goverment in practice, which is sometimes a little different. Take,
>for example, the Canadian Senate, which was supposed to be the house
>of sober second thought and which has sometimes not even got as far
>as the sober part before derailing.
I suspect the worlds in Barnes' _A Million Open Doors_ series were
intended to work out a little better.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://nancylebov.livejournal.com
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Stanislaus. B
wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> . . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
>
>While it's only a chapter (Chapter 2, to be exact) rather than the
>focus of the book in which it appears, the world of New Concept, as
>mentioned in Jack Vance's _Book of Dreams_, seems an excellent
>exemplar. The quotation that opens the chapter, nominally from
>_Civilized Ideas and Civilized Worlds_, by Michael Yeaton, is
>especially apposite.
I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be quite
unreligious, or that communist city on Alastor, or the society in
Emphyrio.
Danny Sichel
>>>. . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>>>of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
> I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
> unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
> founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be quite unreligious
I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist apocalyptic
Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship, since they knew it
was the End Times).
The first Schism was within a year of landing; by the time the story
starts 200 years later, every village on the planet has declared all the
others to be vile heretics.
--
This is a test .sig; had it been a real .sig, it would have been clever.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Dan Goodman
> Stanislaus. B wrote:
>
> > > > . . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the
> > > > design of the government turned out to produce unexpected
> > > > results?
>
> > I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
> > unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
> > founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be
> > quite unreligious
>
> I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
> which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist
> apocalyptic Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship,
> since they knew it was the End Times).
>
> The first Schism was within a year of landing; by the time the story
> starts 200 years later, every village on the planet has declared all
> the others to be vile heretics.
Unless they all travelled in coldsleep, I don't see how they could
avoid splits till landing. And even then, if the crew was awake....
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Political http://www.dailykos.com/user/dsgood
Walter Bushell
Danny Sichel <dsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stanislaus. B wrote:
>
> >>>. . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
> >>>of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
>
> > I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
> > unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
> > founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be quite
> > unreligious
>
> I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
> which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist apocalyptic
> Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship, since they knew it
> was the End Times).
>
> The first Schism was within a year of landing; by the time the story
> starts 200 years later, every village on the planet has declared all the
> others to be vile heretics.
>
About what one would expect. Without major changes they are going to
have genetic problems from inbreeding.
--
Divided we stand!
David Johnston
wrote:
>> The first Schism was within a year of landing; by the time the story
>> starts 200 years later, every village on the planet has declared all the
>> others to be vile heretics.
>>
>
>About what one would expect. Without major changes they are going to
>have genetic problems from inbreeding.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they steal women from each other.
That's how that problem is generally solved without doing something
drastic like trying to get along.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>Stanislaus. B wrote:
>
>>>>. . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>>>>of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
>
>> I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
>> unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
>> founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be quite unreligious
>
>I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
>which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist apocalyptic
>Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship, since they knew it
>was the End Times).
Actually it was founded by a coalition of several similar
fundamentalist sects, which is why it disintegrated so quickly. If it
had been a single group I estimate they'd have lasted a decade or so
before the first serious schism.
They needed to join forces to afford the ship, even under a government
that was actively encoyuraging fringe groups to emigrate at the time.
And yes, they did use cold sleep, which is why there weren't any
splits until after they landed.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The second issue of Helix is at http://www.helixsf.com
A new Ethshar novel is being serialized at http://www.ethshar.com/thevondishambassador1.html
William December Starr
Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> said:
Which from the sound of things could only improve them.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Walter Bushell
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:23:02 -0500, Danny Sichel <dsi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Stanislaus. B wrote:
> >
> >>>>. . . Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
> >>>>of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
> >
> >> I think that in works of Vance you can find as many examples of
> >> unexpected results of society design as you wish. Eg - many colonies
> >> founded by religious minorities and sects, that turn out to be quite
> >> unreligious
> >
> >I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
> >which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist apocalyptic
> >Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship, since they knew it
> >was the End Times).
>
> Actually it was founded by a coalition of several similar
> fundamentalist sects, which is why it disintegrated so quickly. If it
> had been a single group I estimate they'd have lasted a decade or so
> before the first serious schism.
>
> They needed to join forces to afford the ship, even under a government
> that was actively encoyuraging fringe groups to emigrate at the time.
> And yes, they did use cold sleep, which is why there weren't any
> splits until after they landed.
One thing, that is bad is a religious war on a spacecraft, particularly
among religions that are similar.
--
Divided we stand!
David Cowie
> One thing, that is bad is a religious war on a spacecraft, particularly
> among religions that are similar.
_Iron Council_ by China Mieville has a civil war on a *train*. The
survivors refer to that period as "the idiocy".
--
David Cowie
Containment Failure + 26283:48
Jesper Lauridsen
>
> One thing, that is bad is a religious war on a spacecraft, particularly
> among religions that are similar.
ObSF: Red Dwarf.
Robert Carnegie
> I'm recalling the colony planet Godsworld, in LWE's _Shining Steel_,
> which was settled by the members of an ultrafundamentalist apocalyptic
> Christian sect (they saved up and bought a slowship, since they knew it
> was the End Times).
Slowship... was actually arriving at their destination before the
Rapture on their agenda? Or did they expect only Earth to be done away
with, and they'd be safe in the sky?
As for the original question... I suppose the classical utopias and
dystopias may often qualify for unintended consequences. By
"classical" I mean those that don't admit to being science fiction.
Then there's Oedipus. I think the ancient play has him legislating
against himself without realising it.
And Lewis Carroll's _Sylvie & Bruno_ and its sequel or second half - in
one or the other, a country is described as having adopted the British
system, I think, of a political party of government checked by another
party in opposition to the first. (With the usual arrangement of
elections, I suppose.) However, they interpreted opposition to the
point that if one party arranged for crops to be planted, the
opposition would dig them up again immediately, and so forth.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Then there's Oedipus. I think the ancient play has him legislating
> against himself without realising it.
He starts a large investigation into who murdered his predecessor,
only to find out it was himself.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gae...@aol.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Walter Bushell
"Robert Carnegie" <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> Then there's Oedipus. I think the ancient play has him legislating
> against himself without realising it.
That would be Kinging against himself, there being no legislature extant.
Hard to enforce rules against a King.
When he saw what he had done,
He tore his eyes out one by one.
A tragic end to a loyal son.
Who loved his mother.
--
Divided we stand!
Dan Tilque
> James Nicoll writes:
>> There is the ideal of the government, as it is envisioned
>> when people are putting it together [1] and then there is the
>> actual goverment in practice, which is sometimes a little
>> different. (...)
>> Any more clear examples of a fictional state where the design
>> of the government turned out to produce unexpected results?
>
> I can't imagine the Barrayaran government works like anyone
> intended, though it's beginning to resemble someone's idea of a
> government now.
It's hard to plan for natural disasters like the wormhole
collapse, so maybe we should give them a break on that one.
But there was no wormhole collapse for Athos (in the same
universe) and look what happened there. As I understand it, the
Founding Fathers intended it to be a religious colony, much like
its namesake here on Earth.
--
Dan Tilque
William December Starr
gae...@aol.com said:
> Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>> Then there's Oedipus. I think the ancient play has him
>> legislating against himself without realising it.
>
> He starts a large investigation into who murdered his predecessor,
> only to find out it was himself.
And people think that Homer Simpson invented the phrase "D'oh!"