Ringworld's Children
Tim McDaniel
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tm...@panix.com
Luke Webber
> Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
>
To be certain, I'd have to read it, and that ain't gonna happen.
Certainly the smart money is on "dire".
Luke
Andrew Plotkin
I picked it up and flipped through random samples. It didn't look
dire, actually. It didn't engage my attention either, nor get into my
wallet.
It looked like more crazy antics on the Ringworld, with clever (or at
least plot-clever) people and protectors and puppetteers and AIs
running around scheming at each other and discovering each others'
fiendish plans. While solving some immense problem, which wasn't
explained in the pages that I happened to flip through.
If the plot is interesting, the book could well be readable. I'm not
making any promises, mind you.
I didn't see any sex. So the book has that much in its favor.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Jim Smith
<tm...@panix.com> writes
>Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
>
Almost certainly
--
Jim Smith
Because of their persistent net abuse, I ignore mail from
these domains (among others) .yahoo.com .hotmail.com .kr .cn .tw
For an explanation see <http://www.jimsmith.demon.co.uk/spam>
Damien R. Sullivan
>Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
I read many pages into it, and there was no rishathra. Then again, with Louis
Wu, a puppeteer, and a protector, there's not much chance for rishathra. But
it didn't emit "I totally suck" rays in that span. Still, I wasn't going to
risk precious grad student dollars on it.
-xx- Damien X-)
who never read Ringworld Throne.
Esa Perkio
: who never read Ringworld Throne.
ISTR that, if cut apart, it would have made one nice novelette and two
terrible ones. I recall gritting my teeth and turning pages, thinking
"_these_ are not the people I want to read about, I want the chapter about
_them_ in _there_."
--
Esa Perkiö
Tony Zbaraschuk
Not as dire as, say, Robert Newcomb.
But having read it in the store I'm not planning to spend a single
thin dime of my own money, even for the paperback edition.
Tony Z
--
All my clothes go into the warm wash cycle together. Any garments
that can't cope with that are weaklings and are culled from the herd.
I've got better things to do with my time than sort laundry into little
piles. -- Ross TenEyck
James Nicoll
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, Luke Webber <lu...@webber.com.au> wrote:
>> Tim McDaniel wrote:
>>
>> > Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
>>
>> To be certain, I'd have to read it, and that ain't gonna happen.
>> Certainly the smart money is on "dire".
>
>I picked it up and flipped through random samples. It didn't look
>dire, actually. It didn't engage my attention either, nor get into my
>wallet.
I read it in manuscript. I did not read _Thrones_, fwiw.
It seems to start off right after _Thrones_ (In mid-action,
anyway). I thought it was a bit dull and aspects are hard to reconcile
with the One True Known Space (Up to about Engineers). It is not as
dull as those two Smoke Ring books. I expect if it were by anyone else
it would disappear without a blip, like _Conscience Interplanetary_
or _Poe Must Die!_ did.
--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammability."
JFK, _Bubba Ho Tep_
BPRAL22169
>Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
Not dire, but not up to his best standards either. Parts of Throne -- the long
flying trip across the Ringworld -- were so dull (though not as dull as the two
Integral Trees books or most of the Road that Goes Ever On and on and on...)
(and on and on) (and on) that I wanted to throw the book across the room.
Children has some problems -- his characters seem paralyzed by indecision,
without any clear sense of themselves or important goals. And a critically
important (to the history of the series) war is happening almost entirely
offstage, with no introduction or scene-setting, and is dropped midway into the
book. This is so obviously bad mechanics-of-writing that I wonder that nobody
in the editorial office pointed this out.
I think it's becoming harder and harder for Niven to integrate the Protectors
into the Ringworld so his story gimmicks are becoming more and more remote.
Bill
Monte Davis
Josh Kaderlan
> Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
It got a good capsule review in Entertainment Weekly. Take that for what you
will.
-Josh
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Niven included one of the good snippets of _Ringworld Throne_ in
_N-Space_. Maybe there's more in other places. The vampire attack
would be a good short story. It's just the collection of mismatched
parts connecting the short stories that made it unpalatable.
I'll read other Niven, but I don't plan to ever touch another
Ringworld novel with a 10m variable sword.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"The Oval Office carpet is thick with Presidential semen. They look out of the
window, think "I own you all" and jack off like ugly apes in humping season.
It's what they live for. No one who wants that is to be trusted. Why can't you
all /see/ that?" -Warren Ellis, _Transmetropolitan #16_
Esa Perkio
: I think it's becoming harder and harder for Niven to integrate the
: Protectors into the Ringworld so his story gimmicks are becoming more
: and more remote.
To be fair, I can see why it can be rather difficult to try to maintain
consistency when some of the actors on the scene happen to be just simply
superior. After all, the Protectors do have their blind spots, but they
mostly coincide with the main characters.
(Well, aside from the vampires. It's hard to think most of the probable
main characters would be too interested in nonsentient vampire bloodlines
compared to just about everything else.)
--
Esa Perkiö
Chuck Bridgeland
> Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
Saw it at the bookstores last Sat. Was kind of waiting for someone _else_
to read it and report, before I spent money on it.
--
"Using Windows is a sin." --J. Boone
Chuck Bridgeland, chuckbri at computerdyn dot com
http://www.essex1.com/people/chuckbri
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
EW reviewed it?!? WTF, is Britney Spears reading the audio version?
Lee
Andrew Wheeler
>
> Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
I've said several times -- in public -- that I think it's much better
than _The Ringworld Throne_. And I will stand by that.
Sadly, those are the only two "Ringworld" books I've read so far, so
that's my only basis for comparison.
--
Andrew Wheeler
"There's a conflict," he said. "There's a conflict between land and
people. The people have to go. They've come all the way out here to make
mining claims, to do automobile body work, to gamble, to take pictures,
to not have to do laundry, to own a mini-bike, to have their own CB
radios and air conditioning, good plumbing for sure, and to sell
Time-Life books and to work in a deli, to have some chili every morning
and maybe, maybe to own their own gas stations again and take drugs and
have some crazy sex, but above all, above all to have a fair shake, to
get a piece of the rock and a slice of the pie and to spit out the
window of your car and not have the wind blow it back in your face."
- The Call of the West
Mark Landin
<acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:
>Sadly, those are the only two "Ringworld" books I've read so far, so
>that's my only basis for comparison.
Do yourself a favor and read "Ringworld", so at least you'll know why
so many people are still giving this series a chance.
Personally, I liked all 3 books. That will likely put me into the
"unwashed heathen" category by most of the other r.a.sf.w regulars. :)
I will likely buy "Children" when it's in PB, or perhaps wait for the
library here to get it if I can't wait that long.
Dgates
I loved the original Ringworld when I listened to the unabridged
audiobook a couple years ago. I wasn't so hot for Ringworld
Engineers, and I can't imagine what I would have thought of the
original if I had read them in the wrong order.
I'd love to find some more good unabridged Larry Niven audiobooks --
especially ones I can check out from the L.A. Public Library! :-)
--
dga...@spamfreelinkline.com
BPRAL22169
Yeah, read Ringworld -- adn then read Protector -- for my money the best of the
series.
Bill
Bill Miller
I love the STL space battle at the end of Protector. Ringworld has a
special place in my heart (what sequels?) but Protector is very, very good.
--
Bill Miller
"Remember Thor Five!"
http://home.houston.rr.com/wbmiller3
Damien R. Sullivan
>I love the STL space battle at the end of Protector. Ringworld has a
>special place in my heart (what sequels?) but Protector is very, very good.
Apart from the human origins biology.
I just tell myself it doesn't matter how smart the protector is; garbage in,
garbage out. Only more like vast biological ignorance instead of garbage.
-xx- Damien X-)
Doom & Gloom Dave
to the recording.
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
> It is not as dull as those two Smoke Ring books. I expect if it
> were by anyone else it would disappear without a blip, like
> _Conscience Interplanetary_ or _Poe Must Die!_ did.
The latter being the second book in the Must Die! series, the
long-awaited sequel to _Spock Must Die!_?
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Rayc
> Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
I've read it. It's better than Throne I think, but awfully thin.
There's an introduction, List of Characters and a Glossary in front.
I for one hopes he ends here...a slight uptick from his previous work.
Seems like the people on the niven mailing list generally like it.
James Nicoll
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <cas9ul$f8r$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>
>> It is not as dull as those two Smoke Ring books. I expect if it
>> were by anyone else it would disappear without a blip, like
>> _Conscience Interplanetary_ or _Poe Must Die!_ did.
>
>The latter being the second book in the Must Die! series, the
>long-awaited sequel to _Spock Must Die!_?
suffering protagonist. I don't actually remember why it was his enemies
decided he had to die, since he was doing such a bang-up job of doing
himself in anyway.
--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammability."
Lotus
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:22:47 GMT, Andrew Wheeler wrote:
>
> >Sadly, those are the only two "Ringworld" books I've read so far, so
> >that's my only basis for comparison.
>
> Do yourself a favor and read "Ringworld", so at least you'll know why
> so many people are still giving this series a chance.
>
Then read 'Strata' by Terry Pratchett. The art of parody is not dead.
Lotus
"The meek shall inherit the earth... in very small plots, about six feet by three."
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person Lotus <silico...@yahoo.com> said
>Mark Landin <mark....@tdwilliamson.com> wrote ...
>
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:22:47 GMT, Andrew Wheeler wrote:
>>
>> >Sadly, those are the only two "Ringworld" books I've read so far, so
>> >that's my only basis for comparison.
>>
>
>> Do yourself a favor and read "Ringworld", so at least you'll know why
>> so many people are still giving this series a chance.
>
>Then read 'Strata' by Terry Pratchett. The art of parody is not dead.
Well, it wasn't when _Strata_ was written, but that was a long time ago
now.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Mark
time but not all that deep.
I liked RINGWORLD a fair amout and thought that RINGWORLD ENGINEERS was as
good or better. Haven't read the more recent two yet.
I saw someone on this thread saying that the Smoke Ring books were dull. I
found THE INTEGRAL TREES extremely enjoyable...it is light as a feather
but a wonderful adventure story. I agree thught that THE SMOKE RING had
hardly any plot...it was like some of Arthur C. Clarke's plotless novels,
just a sort of aimless tour of an imaginary world. A few good bits but not
great.
Mark
Karl Johanson
news:cbsgnp$k4r$1...@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
Yeah, it's better when they get blowed up at the end.
Karl Johanson
Andrew Plotkin
I just finished Reynolds's _Absolution Gap_, and I agree. Stuff blows
up at the end, and it's *great*.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
David Cowie
>
> I just finished Reynolds's _Absolution Gap_, and I agree. Stuff blows
> up at the end, and it's *great*.
>
Here's a quote from Reynolds's website:
"You can't often work car-chases into hard SF stories, but you can usually
find something to blow up. "
http://www.alastairreynolds.com/sf_shorts_notes.html , in the summary of
"Spirey and the Queen"
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
Containment Failure + 5498:40
Steve Charlton
>Larry Niven, _Ringworld's Children_, out in hardcover. Dire?
>
have to say I was expecting to be disappointed. I liked Ringworld, in
fact I loved it! It was mind blowing, Engineers was good but not great,
Throne wasn't very good at all, Children is very good indeed. Niven is
back (and very very welcome).
--
Steve Charlton |There may be intelligent life on other planets
st...@gnirekoms.freeserve.co.uk |in the galaxy, but somebody, somewhere, had to
sdrawkcab=backwards |be first.
Carl Sagan (sadly missed)
Hallvard B Furuseth
> I've just read it, and then sat down and read it again. Its that
Good news.
Does Children depend on reading Throne first? I will not touch Throne.
--
Hallvard
Dgates
<h.b.fu...@usit.uio.no> wrote:
That's just what I was about to ask!
Loved the first one and thought the second was so-so. Can I read the
fourth (and enjoy it) without the third?
--
dga...@spamfreelinkline.com
Lee DeRaud
<h.b.fu...@usit.uio.no> wrote:
There are a bunch of characters and races/species/whatever introduced
in Throne that are somewhat critical to knowing what's going on at the
start of Children. Caveat: before reading Children, I *deliberately*
went back and reread Throne, mostly because I remembered so little of
it I felt like I needed a catch-up. Result: not nearly as dreadful as
I recalled, but definitely stone-cold boring. A 10-page or so synopsis
would have been quite enough as an alternative.
Lee
Wayne Throop
: There are a bunch of characters and races/species/whatever introduced
: in Throne that are somewhat critical to knowing what's going on at the
: start of Children. Caveat: before reading Children, I *deliberately*
: went back and reread Throne, mostly because I remembered so little of
: it I felt like I needed a catch-up. Result: not nearly as dreadful as
: I recalled, but definitely stone-cold boring. A 10-page or so
: synopsis would have been quite enough as an alternative.
This sounds like a job for altruistic discordian volunterism at its best.
Somebody could publish that 10-page sumary on this group, or to the
web with a pointer to this group. And hence skip all that boring stuff.
Dreamer could fund such a document's creation...
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Bryan Derksen
wrote:
>This sounds like a job for altruistic discordian volunterism at its best.
>Somebody could publish that 10-page sumary on this group, or to the
>web with a pointer to this group. And hence skip all that boring stuff.
>
>Dreamer could fund such a document's creation...
How about creating/expanding a Wikipedia page for it? Just go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ringworld_Throne
and click the "edit" link. I'd start it off, but I haven't even looked
at the back cover so I'd have no clue.
(Yes, I am a Wikipediholic. :)
machf
Can I read the fourth without having read the two previous ones?
--
__________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke
\_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
_H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com
'-_____|(
remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying
James Nicoll
machf <no_me_...@terra.com.pe> wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:56:18 -0700, Dgates <dga...@nospamlinkline.com> wrote:
>
>>On 05 Jul 2004 23:07:11 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
>><h.b.fu...@usit.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Charlton wrote:
>>>> I've just read it, and then sat down and read it again. Its that
>>>> good. (...) Niven is back (and very very welcome).
>>>
>>>Good news.
>>>Does Children depend on reading Throne first? I will not touch Throne.
>>
>>That's just what I was about to ask!
>>
>>Loved the first one and thought the second was so-so. Can I read the
>>fourth (and enjoy it) without the third?
>
>Can I read the fourth without having read the two previous ones?
I don't know about the second, because I read it but with
all the people who read Throne imitating the martians at the end of
_Mars Attacks_ I never got around to reading it.
Children seems to start right after another book (presumably
Throne) ends but you can pick up what's going on as you go. In fact,
I think the list of characters helps you pick up what is going to
happen before you go.
--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammable."
Elvis, _Bubba Ho Tep_
Steve Charlton
<h.b.fu...@usit.uio.no> writes
>On 05 Jul 2004 23:07:11 +0200, Hallvard B Furuseth
><h.b.fu...@usit.uio.no> wrote:
>That's just what I was about to ask!
>
>Loved the first one and thought the second was so-so. Can I read the
>fourth (and enjoy it) without the third?
Yes to all of you, though some idea of what happened in some sections of
it may be helpful.
<Spoilers, all from memory, for the second and third books - probably
slightly jumbled up, probably got a few things wrong too>
Engineers
=========
The RW is off centre from its sun and will brush against it soon if
nothing is done!
Louis and Speaker (AKA Chmee) return to the Ringworld having been
kidnapped(!) by the Hindmost (previous ruler of the Puppeteers). He
brings probes with stepping disk links and has stepping disk links
throughout the ship. He also has Carlos Wu's autodoc, a highly advanced
nano-tech device which can rebuild a human body into a youthful 20 year
old from the genes out.
Louis and Chmee explore the RW and realise that the Great Ocean has
islands that are maps of local inhabitable worlds at 1:1 scale!
Including Earth, Kzin, Mars, Trinoc.
They discover that the RW meteor defence is a solar flare, pulled from
the sun by magnetic fields in the RW floor itself, stretched out in a
long thin line and compressed until it produces an ultraviolet laser
beam with terrawatts of power!
They discover enormous MHD attitude jets mounted on the RW walls - 95%
are missing, stolen by the natives to use as starships. The remaining 5%
aren't enough to push the RW back into place. The RW is doomed! They
also explore a RW starship and find space armour shaped like a
Protector...
Louis is attacked by vampires (non-sentient hominid species who suck
blood). He saves a RW native woman who takes him to a floating city. On
the way he meets a member of the ghoul/night-people/scavenger race -
highly intelligent hominids who have a communications system covering
the entire ring. They know who he is and where he's from and ask his
help in saving the RW. In the city he steals a library machine and
escapes via a probe-mounted stepping disk.
With the info they have gathered they deduce that the RW repair centre
is probably under the Map of Mars - which is 40 miles high and hollow -
that's a *lot* of space to work with.
They invade and are fired upon. With the ship kept in stasis by a laser
the protector moves it and embeds it in molten rock (so they can't
escape in the ship). Using a stepping-disk link they do escape and
invade the repair centre. The protector (Tella Brown!) attacks Chmee and
Louis is forced to kill her.
Using the meteor defence to produce a large flare the Hindmost enriches
the fuel supply for the remaining MHD jets and saves the RW.
Throne
======
From what I remember (only read it once), Throne sort of meanders around
a lot, there's another Protector inside Mars - an ex-vampire - not
enormously intelligent, smarter than the Hindmost though. He hacks the
stepping disks and captures the Hindmost.
Louis traps a ghoul and takes him to the tree-of-life room under the Map
of Mars. The Ghoul becomes a very *very* intelligent protector
(Tunesmith). The other protector is killed (can't remember how).
They watch 3 Kzinti ship try to land on RW through Fist-of-God -
Tunesmith uses the meteor defence to fry them. Other ships are in far
orbits on the fringe of the system - Puppeteers, Kzin, ARM, Outsiders -
He fires the MD at them too.
Eventually, Louis ends up in the Autodoc being made young again (he was
off booster spice for decades and is ageing fast).
Children
========
When he emerges from the autodoc... but you'll have to read the book.
Mike Van Pelt
Steve Charlton <st...@nospam.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Throne
>======
>They watch 3 Kzinti ship try to land on RW through Fist-of-God -
>Tunesmith uses the meteor defence to fry them. Other ships are in far
>orbits on the fringe of the system - Puppeteers, Kzin, ARM, Outsiders -
>He fires the MD at them too.
Uh... I know I read this, but I don't recall much of it at all...
sure, Puppeteers can get to Ringworld, but these other folks?
Did the Puppeteers sell the Quantum II Hyperdrive to all of them?
--
The more corrupt the state, Mike Van Pelt
the more numerous the laws. mvp.at.calweb.com
-- Tacitus, Annals III 27 KE6BVH
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
>In article <XSGhdBJg...@smokering.freeserve.co.uk>,
>Steve Charlton <st...@nospam.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>Throne
>>======
>>They watch 3 Kzinti ship try to land on RW through Fist-of-God -
>>Tunesmith uses the meteor defence to fry them. Other ships are in far
>>orbits on the fringe of the system - Puppeteers, Kzin, ARM, Outsiders -
>>He fires the MD at them too.
>
>Uh... I know I read this, but I don't recall much of it at all...
>sure, Puppeteers can get to Ringworld, but these other folks?
>Did the Puppeteers sell the Quantum II Hyperdrive to all of them?
You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.) It was
the *payment* to the humans and kzinti for going on the first mission.
Lee
Mike Van Pelt
Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>On 09 Jul 2004 01:55:12 GMT, m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt)
>wrote:
>>Did the Puppeteers sell the Quantum II Hyperdrive to all of them?
>
>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.) It was
>the *payment* to the humans and kzinti for going on the first mission.
Obviously, it's been *way* too long since I read Ringworld.
Paul Ciszek
>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.) It was
>the *payment* to the humans and kzinti for going on the first mission.
It was the payment to their governments, yes. But Luis Wu, Teela Brown,
Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive. I remember
that Luis took over the helm for a while, and was surprised by how quickly
stellar masses kept showing up in the indicator.
In the sequel _Ringworld Engineers_, Hindmost put Luis and Chmee into
stasis for a trip of many years.
BTW, I always thought that a great title for a sequel in the series
would be "Devil Take the Hindmost".
--
Please reply to: | "Evolution is a theory that accounts
pciszek at panix dot com | for variety, not superiority."
Autoreply has been disabled | -- Joan Pontius
Steve Coltrin
> In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>,
> Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.) It was
>>the *payment* to the humans and kzinti for going on the first mission.
>
> It was the payment to their governments, yes. But Luis Wu
Louis.
>, Teela Brown,
> Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
Did not. In _R_ they got to the Puppeteer fleet in the _Long Shot_,
but went the rest of the way in _Lying Bastard_, which, not being a
mile-across sphere with a one-room cabin, did not have QII.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org WWJGD?
"I secretly wept on the stairs the night [Reagan] was elected President,
because I understood that the kind of shitheads I had to listen to in the
cafeteria grew up to become voters, and won." - Tim Kreider, _The Pain_
David Loewe, Jr.
Ciszek) wrote:
>In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>,
>Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>On 09 Jul 2004 01:55:12 GMT, m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.) It was
>>the *payment* to the humans and kzinti for going on the first mission.
>
>It was the payment to their governments, yes. But Luis Wu, Teela Brown,
>Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
They took the QII equipped Long Shot to the Puppeteer Fleet Of Worlds.
This was the same vehicle piloted by the Crashlander Beowulf Shaeffer
to the Core. From there, they take the Lying Bastard to Ringworld. The
Liar is a Kzin piloted ship.
>I remember that Luis took over the helm for a while,
Louis Wu pilots the Long Shot for the entirety of the trip out to the
Fleet Of Worlds. Speaker-To-Animals, Teela Brown and Nessus pass the
journey in stasis.
>and was surprised by how quickly
>stellar masses kept showing up in the indicator.
>
>In the sequel _Ringworld Engineers_, Hindmost put Luis and Chmee into
>stasis for a trip of many years.
>
>BTW, I always thought that a great title for a sequel in the series
>would be "Devil Take the Hindmost".
--
"What can you do when your dreams come true
And it's not quite like you planned?
What have you done to be losing the one
You held it so tight in your hand?"
Don Henley & Glenn Frey
Michael Stemper
>begin nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>> In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.)
>>, Teela Brown,
>> Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
>
>Did not. In _R_ they got to the Puppeteer fleet in the _Long Shot_,
>but went the rest of the way in _Lying Bastard_, which, not being a
>mile-across sphere with a one-room cabin, did not have QII.
And, in at least one of the two, they got there in stasis, because their
ship didn't have enough capacity for food and so on for a two year trip.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.
David Loewe, Jr.
Stemper) wrote:
>In article <87brikk...@hrothgar.omcl.org>, Steve Coltrin writes:
>>begin nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>> In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.)
>
>>>, Teela Brown,
>>> Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
>>
>>Did not. In _R_ they got to the Puppeteer fleet in the _Long Shot_,
>>but went the rest of the way in _Lying Bastard_, which, not being a
>>mile-across sphere with a one-room cabin, did not have QII.
>
>And, in at least one of the two, they got there in stasis, because their
>ship didn't have enough capacity for food and so on for a two year trip.
One of the two what?
Books? Ships mentioned above?
Teela Brown, Speaker-To-Animals and Nessus were in stasis on board
Long Shot. This had more to do with space considerations than anything
else. The trip itself was not long - Long Shot has QII.
--
"Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist."
- Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones
Steve Coltrin
> And, in at least one of the two, they got there in stasis, because their
> ship didn't have enough capacity for food and so on for a two year trip.
That would have been _Hot Needle of Inquiry_. Dunno if that was
because of provisioning issues - eh, no closed-cycle lifesystem? - or
because the Hindmost didn't want to spend two years listening to
Louis and Chmee bitching about being shanghaied.
Michael Stemper
>On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:44:36 -0500, mste...@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>In article <87brikk...@hrothgar.omcl.org>, Steve Coltrin writes:
>>>begin nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>>> In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>>>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.)
>>
>>>>, Teela Brown,
>>>> Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
>>>
>>>Did not. In _R_ they got to the Puppeteer fleet in the _Long Shot_,
>>>but went the rest of the way in _Lying Bastard_, which, not being a
>>>mile-across sphere with a one-room cabin, did not have QII.
>>
>>And, in at least one of the two, they got there in stasis, because their
>>ship didn't have enough capacity for food and so on for a two year trip.
>
>One of the two what?
>
>Books? Ships mentioned above?
One of the two books mentioned above was my meaning; sorry for the
lack of clarity.
>Teela Brown, Speaker-To-Animals and Nessus were in stasis on board
>Long Shot.
This turns out not to be the case.
In _Ringworld_, the four went from Neried in our solar system to the
Puppeteer fleet in the Long Shot. No mention is made of them being is
stasis. They travelled from the fleet to the Ringworld in the Lying
Bastard, which is specifically described as being a GP #2 hull, and
therefore did not have the QII drive.
In _Ringworld Engineers_, the three went from Canyon to the Ringworld
in another small ship, The Hot Needle of Inquiry, with Louis Wu and
Chmee in stasis for two years while the Puppeteer flew.
> The trip itself was not long - Long Shot has QII.
That's true -- the trip from our solar system to the Puppeteer fleet
was not long because it was made in the Long Shot. And the trip from
the Puppeteer fleet to the Ringworld was not long because the two were
close together.
But the Ringworld itself is a long way off, because:
A. It's well outside of Known Space (statement by Wu in _Ringworld_)
B. It takes two years to get there without the QII drive.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.
Steve Coltrin
> In _Ringworld_, the four went from Neried in our solar system to the
> Puppeteer fleet in the Long Shot. No mention is made of them being is
> stasis.
<ahem>
"The fitting of three crash couches into so small a space gave us
considerable difficulty. Each is equipped with a stasis field for
maximum safety. Since we will ride in stasis, it matters little that
there is no room to move about." (p. 51, 1981 mmpb)
"[H]e closed the cover on the kzin's crash couch and flipped a knife
switch. The crash couch became a mirror-surfaced egg." (p.57)
Michael Stemper
>begin mste...@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>> In _Ringworld_, the four went from Neried in our solar system to the
>> Puppeteer fleet in the Long Shot. No mention is made of them being is
>> stasis.
>
><ahem>
>
>"The fitting of three crash couches into so small a space gave us
>considerable difficulty. Each is equipped with a stasis field for
>maximum safety. Since we will ride in stasis, it matters little that
>there is no room to move about." (p. 51, 1981 mmpb)
>
>"[H]e closed the cover on the kzin's crash couch and flipped a knife
>switch. The crash couch became a mirror-surfaced egg." (p.57)
Well, curse me for a lying bastard -- you're absolutely right. That's
what I get for just skimming.
To be honest, I'm not sure why I put that in in the first place. I was
trying to support the argument that the Ringworld was a long ways off.
Showing people using the QII *or* stasis would support that -- as would
Louis Wu's statement about it being over two hundred light years away.
My somewhat more careful reread of the Long Shot's trip to the fleet
gives the impression of it only taking a day or so (with QII), which
makes me wonder why everybody but Wu was in stasis. But, they were.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
There is three erors in this sentence.
aRJay
Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> writes
compartments, the control room with just one couch for a human pilot and
an equally small second compartment that had barely enough room for the
three couches for the rest of the crew. I have the impression of the
space available being similar to that inside a car.
[1] An example of this being that the drive axis of the fusion drives
and hyper drives where at 180 degrees enabling the ship to fly through
hyper space (where there is absolutely nothing) with the fusion flames
preceding it for protection.
--
aRJay
"In this great and creatorless universe, where so much beautiful has
come to be out of the chance interactions of the basic properties of
matter, it seems so important that we love one another."
- Lucy Kemnitzer
Steve Coltrin
[the _Long Shot_]
> An example of this being that the drive axis of the fusion drives
> and hyper drives where at 180 degrees enabling the ship to fly through
> hyper space (where there is absolutely nothing) with the fusion flames
> preceding it for protection.
I don't think there's any reason to think that was done for _protection_;
the Puppeteers are paranoid, not morons. The one who notified Beo of
this feature used the example of flames-pointing-forward, but just as
illustration.
I expect the reason it was done was as a rather vicious theft preventative.
Ross TenEyck
>[the _Long Shot_]
>> An example of this being that the drive axis of the fusion drives
>> and hyper drives where at 180 degrees enabling the ship to fly through
>> hyper space (where there is absolutely nothing) with the fusion flames
>> preceding it for protection.
>I don't think there's any reason to think that was done for _protection_;
>the Puppeteers are paranoid, not morons. The one who notified Beo of
>this feature used the example of flames-pointing-forward, but just as
>illustration.
>I expect the reason it was done was as a rather vicious theft preventative.
I always assumed it was for emergency get-me-the-hell-out-of-here.
You could be proceeding in some direction in normal space, on fusion
drive; when you see something scary, just kick in the hyperdrive and
you're making tracks in the opposite direction, without all that
tedious and time-wasting turning-around.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Steve Coltrin
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> writes:
>>begin aRJay <aR...@escore.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>[the _Long Shot_]
>
>>> An example of this being that the drive axis of the fusion drives
>>> and hyper drives where at 180 degrees enabling the ship to fly through
>>> hyper space (where there is absolutely nothing) with the fusion flames
>>> preceding it for protection.
>
>>I don't think there's any reason to think that was done for _protection_;
>>the Puppeteers are paranoid, not morons. The one who notified Beo of
>>this feature used the example of flames-pointing-forward, but just as
>>illustration.
>
>>I expect the reason it was done was as a rather vicious theft preventative.
>
> I always assumed it was for emergency get-me-the-hell-out-of-here.
> You could be proceeding in some direction in normal space, on fusion
> drive; when you see something scary, just kick in the hyperdrive and
> you're making tracks in the opposite direction, without all that
> tedious and time-wasting turning-around.
Usually when you need to get the hell out of here, though, "here"
is in a star's gravity well and using the hyperdrive is suicide.
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
>begin ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Ross TenEyck) writes:
>
>> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> writes:
>>>begin aRJay <aR...@escore.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>>[the _Long Shot_]
>>
>>>> An example of this being that the drive axis of the fusion drives
>>>> and hyper drives where at 180 degrees enabling the ship to fly through
>>>> hyper space (where there is absolutely nothing) with the fusion flames
>>>> preceding it for protection.
>>
>>>I don't think there's any reason to think that was done for _protection_;
>>>the Puppeteers are paranoid, not morons. The one who notified Beo of
>>>this feature used the example of flames-pointing-forward, but just as
>>>illustration.
>>
>>>I expect the reason it was done was as a rather vicious theft preventative.
>>
>> I always assumed it was for emergency get-me-the-hell-out-of-here.
>> You could be proceeding in some direction in normal space, on fusion
>> drive; when you see something scary, just kick in the hyperdrive and
>> you're making tracks in the opposite direction, without all that
>> tedious and time-wasting turning-around.
>
>Usually when you need to get the hell out of here, though, "here"
>is in a star's gravity well and using the hyperdrive is suicide.
Heh. I take it none of you have read "Ringworld's Children" yet?
Lee
Steve Coltrin
Aurrrrgh. RGVLS has had a dozen copies IN PROCESSING for _weeks_ now.
aRJay
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes
got away at the end of the original book.
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
Come back when you've read RC: the Puppeteers aren't as dumb as they
look.
Lee
G EddieA95
>>got away at the end of the original book.
>
>Come back when you've read RC: the Puppeteers aren't as dumb as they
>look.
They didn't use the HD at RW (which at 1AU is rather close to its sun), they
used its centrifugal force to leave the system and then use the HD. Nessus
describes it:
"We don't have to repair the ship. If we can get the Liar off the ring, its
rotation will fling it, and us, out of the star's gravity well. Out where we
can use the hyperdrive."
So they knw they couldn't use their HD near the RW, but ended up not having to.
Lee DeRaud
Ding ding ding!!! We have another winner in the "haven't read
'Ringworlds Children' yet" contest!!!
Lee
Steve Coltrin
> In article <tnehf057v6kflij12...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud
> <lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes
>>On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:55:51 GMT, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Usually when you need to get the hell out of here, though, "here"
>>>is in a star's gravity well and using the hyperdrive is suicide.
>>
>>Heh. I take it none of you have read "Ringworld's Children" yet?
>>
> No but IIRC the Ringworld was at the safe limit, it was part of how
> they got away at the end of the original book.
Gronk? The hyper limit of a Sol-type star is _way_ out there, on
the order of the Sol-Neptune distance.
If they could have left from 1 AU, they wouldn't have futzed with
Fist-Of-God, just said 'screw it' and turned the drive on.
(Wonder what that would have done to the local terrain.)
James Nicoll
Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin aRJay <aR...@escore.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> In article <tnehf057v6kflij12...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud
>> <lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes
>>>On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:55:51 GMT, Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Usually when you need to get the hell out of here, though, "here"
>>>>is in a star's gravity well and using the hyperdrive is suicide.
>>>
>>>Heh. I take it none of you have read "Ringworld's Children" yet?
>>>
>> No but IIRC the Ringworld was at the safe limit, it was part of how
>> they got away at the end of the original book.
>
>Gronk? The hyper limit of a Sol-type star is _way_ out there, on
>the order of the Sol-Neptune distance.
In CoR it turns out that while the previosu model of hyperspace
had predictive value, it wasn't complete.
Bryan Derksen
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Ding ding ding!!! We have another winner in the "haven't read
>'Ringworlds Children' yet" contest!!!
With suitable spoiler space and/or ROT-13, would you please explain
instead of just acting insufferable about knowing something we don't?
David Loewe, Jr.
Stemper) wrote:
>In article <fopaf01jo7fl7fvli...@4ax.com>, David Loewe, Jr. writes:
>>On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:44:36 -0500, mste...@siemens-emis.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>In article <87brikk...@hrothgar.omcl.org>, Steve Coltrin writes:
>>>>begin nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) writes:
>>>>> In article <ft8se0l4b2ev3dt72...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>You don't need the QII hyperdrive to get to the Ringworld. (Hint:
>>>>>>neither 'Lying Bastard' nor 'Hot Needle of Inquiry' had it.)
>>>
>>>>>, Teela Brown,
>>>>> Nessus, and Speaker-to-Animals got there in a QII hyperdrive.
>>>>
>>>>Did not. In _R_ they got to the Puppeteer fleet in the _Long Shot_,
>>>>but went the rest of the way in _Lying Bastard_, which, not being a
>>>>mile-across sphere with a one-room cabin, did not have QII.
>>>
>>>And, in at least one of the two, they got there in stasis, because their
>>>ship didn't have enough capacity for food and so on for a two year trip.
>>
>>One of the two what?
>>
>>Books? Ships mentioned above?
>
>One of the two books mentioned above was my meaning; sorry for the
>lack of clarity.
>
>>Teela Brown, Speaker-To-Animals and Nessus were in stasis on board
>>Long Shot.
>
>This turns out not to be the case.
Wrong.
>
>In _Ringworld_, the four went from Neried in our solar system to the
>Puppeteer fleet in the Long Shot. No mention is made of them being is
>stasis.
pg. 51-2 (paperback)
"The fitting of three crash couches into so small a space gave us
considerable difficulty. Each is equipped with a stasis field for
maximum safety. Since we will ride in stasis, it matters little that
there is no room to move about."
That's Nessus speaking. Other passages concur.
>They travelled from the fleet to the Ringworld in the Lying
>Bastard, which is specifically described as being a GP #2 hull, and
>therefore did not have the QII drive.
>
>In _Ringworld Engineers_, the three went from Canyon to the Ringworld
>in another small ship, The Hot Needle of Inquiry, with Louis Wu and
>Chmee in stasis for two years while the Puppeteer flew.
>
>> The trip itself was not long - Long Shot has QII.
>
>That's true -- the trip from our solar system to the Puppeteer fleet
>was not long because it was made in the Long Shot. And the trip from
>the Puppeteer fleet to the Ringworld was not long because the two were
>close together.
>
>But the Ringworld itself is a long way off, because:
>A. It's well outside of Known Space (statement by Wu in _Ringworld_)
>B. It takes two years to get there without the QII drive.
--
David Loewe, Jr.
wrote:
>In article <tnehf057v6kflij12...@4ax.com>, Lee DeRaud
Umm... NO.
They use the momentum of the Ringworld's rotation to throw them away
from the Ringworld (and the star) at "...770 miles per second."
--
"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."
- John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987
Lee DeRaud
I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
discussing is entirely out of the question? But if you insist...
Ulcreqevir pna va snpg or hfrq va n tenivgl jryy. Ohg ulcrefcnpr vfa'g
rzcgl nsgre nyy: vg unf na rpbybtl, vapyhqvat cerqngbef gung qjryy
(lbh thrffrq vg) arne tenivgl fbheprf. Fb (1) gur abgvba bs gur
Chccrgrre'f hfvat sbejneq-snpvat shfvba qevirf nf qrsrafvir jrncbaf va
ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb znxr frafr nsgre nyy, naq (2) lbh pna rzcybl
fbzr engure pbby gnpgvpf ol hfvat ulcreqevir va (irel) fubeg ohefgf
jvguva gur Evatjbeyq flfgrz.
Lee
Ross TenEyck
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:10:54 GMT, Bryan Derksen
><bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote:
>>With suitable spoiler space and/or ROT-13, would you please explain
>>instead of just acting insufferable about knowing something we don't?
>I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
>discussing is entirely out of the question? But if you insist...
Given the last couple of Ringworld books? Yes. Yes, it is.
>Ulcreqevir pna va snpg or hfrq va n tenivgl jryy. Ohg ulcrefcnpr vfa'g
>rzcgl nsgre nyy: vg unf na rpbybtl, vapyhqvat cerqngbef gung qjryy
>(lbh thrffrq vg) arne tenivgl fbheprf. Fb (1) gur abgvba bs gur
>Chccrgrre'f hfvat sbejneq-snpvat shfvba qevirf nf qrsrafvir jrncbaf va
>ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb znxr frafr nsgre nyy, naq (2) lbh pna rzcybl
>fbzr engure pbby gnpgvpf ol hfvat ulcreqevir va (irel) fubeg ohefgf
>jvguva gur Evatjbeyq flfgrz.
Oh my good Lord. I think that just killed any faint desire I may
have had to read this one.
Lee DeRaud
(Ross TenEyck) wrote:
>Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes:
>>On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:10:54 GMT, Bryan Derksen
>><bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote:
>
>>>With suitable spoiler space and/or ROT-13, would you please explain
>>>instead of just acting insufferable about knowing something we don't?
>
>>I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
>>discussing is entirely out of the question? But if you insist...
>
>Given the last couple of Ringworld books? Yes. Yes, it is.
>
>>Ulcreqevir pna va snpg or hfrq va n tenivgl jryy. Ohg ulcrefcnpr vfa'g
>>rzcgl nsgre nyy: vg unf na rpbybtl, vapyhqvat cerqngbef gung qjryy
>>(lbh thrffrq vg) arne tenivgl fbheprf. Fb (1) gur abgvba bs gur
>>Chccrgrre'f hfvat sbejneq-snpvat shfvba qevirf nf qrsrafvir jrncbaf va
>>ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb znxr frafr nsgre nyy, naq (2) lbh pna rzcybl
>>fbzr engure pbby gnpgvpf ol hfvat ulcreqevir va (irel) fubeg ohefgf
>>jvguva gur Evatjbeyq flfgrz.
>
>Oh my good Lord. I think that just killed any faint desire I may
>have had to read this one.
Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
not willing to *read*.
(Just to be clear: the things I describe in the rot13 chunk are minor
plot devices, not the point of the book.)
Lee
Niall McAuley
news:gbelf09hedghg9rlv...@4ax.com...
> I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
> discussing is entirely out of the question?
I'm rather fond of Niven's Good Old Stuff, and reading the dreary
uninspired hackwork he's been producing for what, this last quarter
century or so somewhat puts me off, so I don't read it anymore.
--
Niall [real address ends in net, not ten.invalid]
Dan Swartzendruber
lee.d...@adelphia.net says...
> Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
> guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
> not willing to *read*.
>
> (Just to be clear: the things I describe in the rot13 chunk are minor
> plot devices, not the point of the book.)
Even so, it seems like to much of a retcon for my taste.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
(Ross TenEyck) wrote:
>Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes:
>>On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:10:54 GMT, Bryan Derksen
>><bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote:
>
>>>With suitable spoiler space and/or ROT-13, would you please explain
>>>instead of just acting insufferable about knowing something we don't?
>
>>I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
>>discussing is entirely out of the question? But if you insist...
>
>Given the last couple of Ringworld books? Yes. Yes, it is.
Particularly in hardback. I'll probably spring for it in paper.
>>Ulcreqevir pna va snpg or hfrq va n tenivgl jryy. Ohg ulcrefcnpr vfa'g
>>rzcgl nsgre nyy: vg unf na rpbybtl, vapyhqvat cerqngbef gung qjryy
>>(lbh thrffrq vg) arne tenivgl fbheprf. Fb (1) gur abgvba bs gur
>>Chccrgrre'f hfvat sbejneq-snpvat shfvba qevirf nf qrsrafvir jrncbaf va
>>ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb znxr frafr nsgre nyy, naq (2) lbh pna rzcybl
>>fbzr engure pbby gnpgvpf ol hfvat ulcreqevir va (irel) fubeg ohefgf
>>jvguva gur Evatjbeyq flfgrz.
>
>Oh my good Lord. I think that just killed any faint desire I may
>have had to read this one.
Hmm. Sounds all very Brin, dontcha think? Daft, unworkable,
nonsensical retcons ahoy!
Cheers - Jaimie
--
It's time to light the candles!
It's time to chant the rites!
It's time to summon Satan on the Muppet Show tonight!
Lee DeRaud
Not really: the only thing we're told in earlier books is that (1) the
nature of hyperspace is such that human sensory systems can't deal
with it and (2) ships that enter it too deep in a gravity well are
never seen again, with no exact mechanism given for either effect. So
how does this 'new' information contradict anything told before?
Lee
Dan Swartzendruber
lee.d...@adelphia.net says...
> >> (Just to be clear: the things I describe in the rot13 chunk are minor
> >> plot devices, not the point of the book.)
> >
> >Even so, it seems like to much of a retcon for my taste.
>
> Not really: the only thing we're told in earlier books is that (1) the
> nature of hyperspace is such that human sensory systems can't deal
> with it and (2) ships that enter it too deep in a gravity well are
> never seen again, with no exact mechanism given for either effect. So
> how does this 'new' information contradict anything told before?
I guess we have a difference in WSOD then. I don't want to throw any
spoilers in, but the mechanism for how ships disappear didn't seem
plausible to me - I'd've thought at some point someone would have
survived the experience and reported back. Oh well...
Michael S. Schiffer
Not quite. IIRC, in one of the stories (I *think* it's the one
where Schaeffer and Ausfaller deal with the pirate/mad scientist in
the outer Sol system) the gravity source is more concentrated, such
that the hyperdrive itself goes away but the ship is left intact.
(That is, IIRC, why the piracy can work at all.) While I imagine
that it would be possible to make that consistent with the new
explanation for the hyperdrive limit, it does at least point to a
more straightforward relationship between the gravity gradient and
the dangers of hyperdrive use.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Ross TenEyck
If it contradicted what we were told before, it wouldn't be a retcon.
Or at least it would be a very poor one.
A retcon reinterprets information we had before, and in classical
form is pretty obviously not what the author(s) had in mind when
they were dispensing the information the first time around. It
may be that Niven was thinking of... the rot13 bit... back when
he wrote about hyperspace limits in the early Known Space stories...
but I'd wager a small amount of money against it.
An example of a retcon is when, for instance, we "discover" that
a long-running character was "actually" kidnapped ages ago, and has
been replaced with an actor/clone/evil twin; so if something permanent
happened to the character, well, surprise! it really didn't, it was
just the imposter. This is often just a cheap way to erase a
permanent character event that somebody decided they didn't like
after all.
Richard Horton
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
>guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
>not willing to *read*.
As far as I can tell, he's willing to read discussions of the book by
people in this group. When such a discussion threw up an intriguing
bit he didn't get because he hasn't read the book, he asked for
clarification.
Why on Earth do you find this unusual?
I haven't read every book the collective mind of rasfw has read, and I
happily read discussions of books I haven't read. If it's about a book
I plan to get to soon, I might skip a thread, sure. Otherwise, if
there is interesting talk going on, I'll keep reading.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
wrote on Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:07:02 -0700:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:10:54 GMT, Bryan Derksen
><bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote:
>>On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:36:56 -0700, Lee DeRaud
>><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>Ding ding ding!!! We have another winner in the "haven't read
>>>'Ringworlds Children' yet" contest!!!
>>With suitable spoiler space and/or ROT-13, would you please explain
>>instead of just acting insufferable about knowing something we don't?
> I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
> discussing is entirely out of the question?
After how incompetent _Ringworld Throne_ was, I was thinking that I
*might* bother to pick up Children used, in paperback. But perhaps not.
> But if you insist...
> Ulcreqevir pna va snpg or hfrq va n tenivgl jryy. Ohg ulcrefcnpr vfa'g
> rzcgl nsgre nyy: vg unf na rpbybtl, vapyhqvat cerqngbef gung qjryy
> (lbh thrffrq vg) arne tenivgl fbheprf. Fb (1) gur abgvba bs gur
> Chccrgrre'f hfvat sbejneq-snpvat shfvba qevirf nf qrsrafvir jrncbaf va
> ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb znxr frafr nsgre nyy, naq (2) lbh pna rzcybl
> fbzr engure pbby gnpgvpf ol hfvat ulcreqevir va (irel) fubeg ohefgf
> jvguva gur Evatjbeyq flfgrz.
And now I don't feel any desire to even do that much. Thanks for
warning me off all future Known Space stories forever.
I liked "The Game of Rat and Dragon" quite a lot, but Niven is not
Cordwainer Smith, and that does not belong in Known Space.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering
them. Was reborn, then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank
world. Was Rorschach." --Alan Moore, _Watchmen #6_, "The Abyss Gazes Also"
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
wrote on Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:19:28 -0700:
> Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
> guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
> not willing to *read*.
The main thing I use rasfw for is to find out which books are good or
crap before reading them, because life's too short to waste on crappy
books. Who isn't suspicious of new Niven books?
> (Just to be clear: the things I describe in the rot13 chunk are minor
> plot devices, not the point of the book.)
That's actually even worse. Giant universe-changing revelations
should not be footnotes. They should be the point of the story.
Bryan Derksen
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:19:28 -0700, Lee DeRaud
><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
>>guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
>>not willing to *read*.
>
>As far as I can tell, he's willing to read discussions of the book by
>people in this group. When such a discussion threw up an intriguing
>bit he didn't get because he hasn't read the book, he asked for
>clarification.
To paraphrase an earlier comment, "ding." I may have gone off of
Niven's new work years ago, but I'm still curious to see what's been
going on in his Known Space setting without me. I even enjoy
discussions of some settings that I've never read any stories in
before and don't expect to in the future.
Robert Shaw
"Ross TenEyck" <ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote
> A retcon reinterprets information we had before, and in classical
> form is pretty obviously not what the author(s) had in mind when
> they were dispensing the information the first time around. It
> may be that Niven was thinking of... the rot13 bit... back when
> he wrote about hyperspace limits in the early Known Space stories...
> but I'd wager a small amount of money against it.
>
The same idea is in his 'Down in Flames' outline, which predates
the Ringworld.
It may not be his original intention, but it is something he's had in
mind for many years.
--
'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett
Robert Shaw.
Niall McAuley
> Not quite. IIRC, in one of the stories (I *think* it's the one
> where Schaeffer and Ausfaller deal with the pirate/mad scientist in
> the outer Sol system) the gravity source is more concentrated, such
> that the hyperdrive itself goes away but the ship is left intact.
> (That is, IIRC, why the piracy can work at all.)
And before the true explanation is found, Shaeffer worries about hyperspace
monsters in that one, not as an explanation for the well-known gravity well
effect, but for the sudden jump in mysterious ship disappearances near Sol's
gravity well. IIRC, he's afraid that ship-eating hyperspace monsters may have
spotted all the human traffic near the system, and may lurk nearby, making
hyperspace travel impossible.
Of course, this is a stupid idea, and not the true explanation. Niven wouldn't
put a stupid idea like that into the Known Space universe, right?
--
Niall [real address ends in com, not moc.invalid]
Dan Swartzendruber
says...
> An example of a retcon is when, for instance, we "discover" that
> a long-running character was "actually" kidnapped ages ago, and has
> been replaced with an actor/clone/evil twin; so if something permanent
> happened to the character, well, surprise! it really didn't, it was
> just the imposter. This is often just a cheap way to erase a
> permanent character event that somebody decided they didn't like
> after all.
The silliest ever, IMO, was on Dallas, when the Bobby character was
killed off (because, IIRC, the actor wanted off the show?) and then they
had to bring him back (somehow) because (again, IIRC, the actor changed
his mind and wanted back on the show), so it turned out the entire
previous season was a dream his wife had! Lame lame lame...
Dan Swartzendruber
Rob...@shavian.fsnet.co.uk says...
>
> "Ross TenEyck" <ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote
>
> > A retcon reinterprets information we had before, and in classical
> > form is pretty obviously not what the author(s) had in mind when
> > they were dispensing the information the first time around. It
> > may be that Niven was thinking of... the rot13 bit... back when
> > he wrote about hyperspace limits in the early Known Space stories...
> > but I'd wager a small amount of money against it.
> >
> The same idea is in his 'Down in Flames' outline, which predates
> the Ringworld.
Mmmm, I was going to make the same observation, but it seemed like that
might be too much of a spoiler. Since you have, that was my thought
too.
David Loewe, Jr.
Ahem...
I would like to point out that, despite the retconning of Ringworld's
Children (which contradicts the information given in The Borderland Of
Sol, apparently), that *IS* how it is explained in Ringworld and, more
to the *point*, is what *happens* in Ringworld. They DO, in fact, use
the rotation to fling them out of the gravity well.
--
"And if the lowly Italians, the lamest, silliest, least stable
of our NATO allies, can build a machine like this, just think
what *we* can do."
P. J. O'Rourke on driving a Ferrari 308
Louann Miller
(Ross TenEyck) wrote:
>
>>I suppose getting off your ass and reading the book the thread is
>>discussing is entirely out of the question? But if you insist...
>
>Given the last couple of Ringworld books? Yes. Yes, it is.
Reading the thread to decide _if_ you want to use irreplaceable
reading time on a given book is a perfectly legitimate usage.
(Probably not for the extremely spoiler-allergic, obviously.)
Louann, still mulling this one over.
Wayne Throop
: Dan Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com>
: The silliest ever, IMO, was on Dallas, when the Bobby character was
: killed off (because, IIRC, the actor wanted off the show?) and then
: they had to bring him back (somehow) because (again, IIRC, the actor
: changed his mind and wanted back on the show), so it turned out the
: entire previous season was a dream his wife had! Lame lame lame...
And yet, people kept watching it. It wonders me.
ANYways, not as lame perhaps, but much more massive, is the last
episode of St Elsewhere, in which we discover that the entire series
was a daydream by an (iirc) autistic child staring into (iirc) a snowglobe.
And the endings of the two MIB movies have two mutually contradictory
(at least, it would sure seem) concluding retcons. Of course, those
retcons are just reminders of scale and insignificance of humans
to the universe at large, but still, retcons of a sort.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> writes
>
>Not really: the only thing we're told in earlier books is that (1) the
>nature of hyperspace is such that human sensory systems can't deal
>with it and (2) ships that enter it too deep in a gravity well are
>never seen again, with no exact mechanism given for either effect. So
>how does this 'new' information contradict anything told before?
>
There's the short story - "Borderland of Sol"? - with a mad scientist
using a mini-black hole for purposes of piracy. IIRC, what that says
about the effect of gravitational gradients on hyperdrives gives an
explanation which seems to contract what you describe from Ringworld's
Children.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Lee DeRaud
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:19:28 -0700, Lee DeRaud
><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>Why? Your WSOD can handle the Ringworld itself but not that? Well, I
>>guess that's no odder than being willing to *discuss* a book you're
>>not willing to *read*.
>
>As far as I can tell, he's willing to read discussions of the book by
>people in this group. When such a discussion threw up an intriguing
>bit he didn't get because he hasn't read the book, he asked for
>clarification.
>
>Why on Earth do you find this unusual?
>
>I haven't read every book the collective mind of rasfw has read, and I
>happily read discussions of books I haven't read. If it's about a book
>I plan to get to soon, I might skip a thread, sure. Otherwise, if
>there is interesting talk going on, I'll keep reading.
Sure. But discussing a book one "hasn't read yet" is not the same as
discussing a book one "isn't willing to read".
Lee
Lee DeRaud
<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:36:56 -0700, Lee DeRaud
><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>On 17 Jul 2004 20:33:41 GMT, gedd...@aol.com (G EddieA95) wrote:
>>
>>>>>No but IIRC the Ringworld was at the safe limit, it was part of how they
>>>>>got away at the end of the original book.
>>>>
>>>>Come back when you've read RC: the Puppeteers aren't as dumb as they
>>>>look.
>>>
>>>They didn't use the HD at RW (which at 1AU is rather close to its sun), they
>>>used its centrifugal force to leave the system and then use the HD. Nessus
>>>describes it:
>>>
>>>"We don't have to repair the ship. If we can get the Liar off the ring, its
>>>rotation will fling it, and us, out of the star's gravity well. Out where we
>>>can use the hyperdrive."
>>>
>>>So they knw they couldn't use their HD near the RW, but ended up not having to.
>>
>>Ding ding ding!!! We have another winner in the "haven't read
>>'Ringworlds Children' yet" contest!!!
>
>Ahem...
>
>I would like to point out that, despite the retconning of Ringworld's
>Children (which contradicts the information given in The Borderland Of
>Sol, apparently), that *IS* how it is explained in Ringworld and, more
>to the *point*, is what *happens* in Ringworld. They DO, in fact, use
>the rotation to fling them out of the gravity well.
And what exactly did I write that you interpret as claiming that they
*didn't*?
Lee
Andrew Plotkin
Well, I'm frequently interested in discussing books that I'm not
willing to read. I read lots of posts about such books.
Sometimes I'm willing to be convinced to read it. Other times, I just
want to know about some element of the book -- like this hyperspace
plot element -- without spending the time to read the whole thing. If
it's a book I know I wouldn't enjoy overall, it's just more efficient
that way.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
David Loewe, Jr.
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
The whole damned thing.
You've consistently been cryptic and unclear.
Now, if want to quit playing "I've got a secret," fine. Otherwise, you
are cordially invited to peddle your attitudinal problem elsewhere.
--
"One cries foul and will not speak
The other claims a little victory
And all the time you know we fail to see
This is the language of love"
Dan Fogelberg
Lee DeRaud
<dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:39:34 -0700, Lee DeRaud
><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0500, "David Loewe, Jr."
>><dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to point out that, despite the retconning of Ringworld's
>>>Children (which contradicts the information given in The Borderland Of
>>>Sol, apparently), that *IS* how it is explained in Ringworld and, more
>>>to the *point*, is what *happens* in Ringworld. They DO, in fact, use
>>>the rotation to fling them out of the gravity well.
>>
>>And what exactly did I write that you interpret as claiming that they
>>*didn't*?
>
>The whole damned thing.
>
>You've consistently been cryptic and unclear.
Huh? You apparently missed the post where I *explicitly* explained
what I was talking about. If you choose not to accept what Niven is
saying in the *new* book (which AFAICT you still haven't read), fine,
but don't blame it on me.
>Now, if want to quit playing "I've got a secret," fine.
Already did, a *week* ago: if you missed it, that's not my problem.
>Otherwise, you
>are cordially invited to peddle your attitudinal problem elsewhere.
You're the one with the attitude, so stop projecting. If you have a
problem with my posts, either killfile me or fuck off, pick one.
Lee
David Loewe, Jr.
<lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:13:58 -0500, "David Loewe, Jr."
><dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:39:34 -0700, Lee DeRaud
>><lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:40:51 -0500, "David Loewe, Jr."
>>><dlo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I would like to point out that, despite the retconning of Ringworld's
>>>>Children (which contradicts the information given in The Borderland Of
>>>>Sol, apparently), that *IS* how it is explained in Ringworld and, more
>>>>to the *point*, is what *happens* in Ringworld. They DO, in fact, use
>>>>the rotation to fling them out of the gravity well.
>>>
>>>And what exactly did I write that you interpret as claiming that they
>>>*didn't*?
>>
>>The whole damned thing.
>>
>>You've consistently been cryptic and unclear.
>
>Huh? You apparently missed the post where I *explicitly* explained
>what I was talking about.
Did you have problems comprehending my words - "despite the retconning
of Ringworld's Children (which contradicts the information given in
The Borderland Of Sol, apparently)" - which clearly indicate I've read
where you *finally* explain yourself?
>If you choose not to accept what Niven is saying in the *new* book (which
>AFAICT you still haven't read), fine, but don't blame it on me.
A lot of this isn't about "what Niven is saying in the *new* book*,"
but, you don't seem to get that.
>
>>Now, if want to quit playing "I've got a secret," fine.
>
>Already did, a *week* ago: if you missed it, that's not my problem.
In the material that you have oh so conveniently snipped away from
your reply, you certainly were - you know, this branching of the
thread.
"Come back when you've read RC: the Puppeteers aren't as dumb as they
look." and "Ding ding ding!!! We have another winner in the "haven't
read 'Ringworlds Children' yet" contest!!!" Those *don't* sound snarky
to you? Those explain to you exactly what's going on in your opinion?
Moreover, you keep rattling on about RC when the discussion
immediately at hand is about the actions taken in R and the reasons
given in R for those actions.
>
>>Otherwise, you
>>are cordially invited to peddle your attitudinal problem elsewhere.
>
>You're the one with the attitude, so stop projecting.
<snort>
Whether or not I've got an attitude is immaterial to whether or not
you've got an attitude. An intelligent and self-aware person would
understand that.
>If you have a
>problem with my posts, either killfile me or fuck off, pick one.
I'll pick choice C.
--
"Tax the rich, feed the poor
till there are no rich no more."
Alvin Lee