Race in sf, Gully Foyle
Nancy Lebovitz
in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
that race.
Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
especially in re African Americans. (She's already got Delaney,
Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST),
and THE STARS MY DESTINATION.
I recommended THE STARS MY DESTINATION, partly on the assumption that
Gully Foyle was black--he's described early on in the book as black,
but it could just be that he was filthy from being a space castaway....
he might be a dark-skinned Caucasian. Another character, Robin
Wednesbury, is described as Negro. (In the world of the book, race
has been cut loose from ethnicity as a side effect of teleportation.)
What color do you think Gully Foyle is? I'm especially interested in
answers from people who read the book when it first came out, since
they'd be more likely to have the same meaning for black that Bester
intended.
Thanks,
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
NEW EDITION of the calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Gary Hayenga
>I recommended THE STARS MY DESTINATION, partly on the assumption that
>Gully Foyle was black--he's described early on in the book as black,
>but it could just be that he was filthy from being a space castaway....
>he might be a dark-skinned Caucasian. Another character, Robin
>Wednesbury, is described as Negro. (In the world of the book, race
>has been cut loose from ethnicity as a side effect of teleportation.)
>What color do you think Gully Foyle is? I'm especially interested in
>answers from people who read the book when it first came out, since
>they'd be more likely to have the same meaning for black that Bester
>intended.
>Thanks,
>Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
If Gully Foyle was black his tatooed tiger mask would hardly show.
gary hayenga
John Boston
>A friend of mine is writing a paper about
the construction of race
>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>that race.
>
>Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
In Greg Bear's QUEEN OF ANGELS, the originally Caucasian protagonist
chooses to have black skin. Deconstruct that!
There is an old novel by Paul Tabori called THE GREEN RAIN (a
Pyramid paperback from around 1960) which turned everybody green.
If you want a horrible example of scientific racism in SF,
try John Taine's THE IRON STAR, in which "Negroid" characteristics
are pretty explicitly equated with degeneracy caused by a huge
radioactive meteorite. This is just the most florid example of
an attitude that crops up in a lot of Taine's books, which may
have something to do with why they are all out of print and never
reissued.
Clifford D. Simak's "The Big Front Yard" presents humanoid
aliens whom he describes somewhere as "black as the ace of spade."
Interestingly, the magazine cover (ASTOUNDING, October 1958)
portrays one of them with blondish straight hair and _very_
European features, without prompting from the text of the story.
John Boston
Edward Bornstein
_The Wind from the Sun_ possibly entitled "The Plague"
or some such.
summary with spoiler: a two page message from our Ancient
Astronaut Ancestors, recounting why the Earth colony collapsed
into barbarism Last line:
"If any of you are still white, we can cure you."
-EB
david hadley
>
> A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
> in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
> you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
> that race.
>
> Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
the main character is black, possibly even African American. From what
little I can recall I think there is some discussion of racial issues in the
book. It is one that I definetly want to go back to if I ever get the time,
sorry for being so vague, but I think it is the sort of thing your friend is
looking for.
--
david hadley * da...@dhadley.demon.co.uk
|#| Hey, Globe Theatre London! Are you ready to ROCK AND ROLL! |#|
|#| --William Shakespeare [Attrib] |#|
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> [Nancy Lebovitz asks about race in SF]
There is a discussion of ethnic stereotypes in the pulps going as we speak
on alt.pulp.
> > [She's already got Delaney,
> > Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST)]
_Starship Troopers_, of course (see the Heinlein FAQ under my home page)
> There is an old novel by Paul Tabori called THE GREEN RAIN (a
> Pyramid paperback from around 1960) which turned everybody green.
Yup, 1961.
> If you want a horrible example of scientific racism in SF,
> try John Taine's THE IRON STAR, in which "Negroid" characteristics
> are pretty explicitly equated with degeneracy caused by a huge
> radioactive meteorite. This is just the most florid example of
> an attitude that crops up in a lot of Taine's books, which may
> have something to do with why they are all out of print and never
> reissued.
Well, "never reissued" is probably too wide a brush. Bleiler kept them in
print for quite some time; Garland reprinted at least one book about 15
years ago; etc. Not exactly bestsellers, but then what pre-Golden age
authors are still popular? IIRC, an attempt to bring Thorne Smith back
into print (Del Rey, 1980) wasn't very successful either :(
The problem with "John Taine" (Eric Temple Bell - yes, the mathematician)
is that many of his manuscripts are still unpublished. Sigh...
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.fan.heinlein, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew, miscellaneous SF
Hans Rancke-Madsen
>A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>that race.
>Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
>especially in re African Americans. (She's already got Delaney,
>Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST),
>and THE STARS MY DESTINATION.
Also _Starship Trooper_ I presume? How about Mack Reynolds' Dark Continent
trilogy _Border, Breed, nor Birth_, _Blackman's Burden_, and _The Best Ye
Breed_?
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
ran...@diku.dk
------------
- "You don't like the Goths?"
- "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
- "Persecution?"
- "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
- "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
- "That's just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going
about their business unmolested, as if they owned the
country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"
-Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
"Lest Darkness Fall"
Nancy Lebovitz
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <3po3kn$e...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>
Thanks for everyone who's conribbuting to this.
>>I recommended THE STARS MY DESTINATION, partly on the assumption that
>>Gully Foyle was black--he's described early on in the book as black,
>>but it could just be that he was filthy from being a space castaway....
>>he might be a dark-skinned Caucasian.
>
>No, he's a light-skinned Caucasian, probably Irish--or part Irish--
Irish because of his name? Should we be looking at how stereotypes
about Irish people play out in the book?
>he's described as having "blue-black" hair. He's light enough
>for the tattooing to show up against his skin, (both originally,
>when it's blue ink, and later, when it's red scar tissue). When
>(after having the tattooing removed) he removes the bandages from
>his chin and sees a dark color, he exclaims, "He missed the chin!"
>till his companion says, "Shut up. That's beard."
Very good points--though he still might have medium brown skin.
>(In the world of the book, race
>>has been cut loose from ethnicity as a side effect of teleportation.)
>
>I'm not sure you can attribute it all to teleportation, though no
>doubt it helped speed it up. I assume you're thinking e.g., of Y'ang-
>Yeovil, who has one Chinese and one English name, a thorough
>grounding in Chinese culture, and does not look Chinese.
Yeovil is an English name? It just sounded exotic to me.
Gary E. Grant
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <3po3kn$e...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>
>>I recommended THE STARS MY DESTINATION, partly on the assumption that
>>Gully Foyle was black--he's described early on in the book as black,
>>but it could just be that he was filthy from being a space castaway....
>>he might be a dark-skinned Caucasian.
Robert Silverbergs "Shadrach in the furnace"
Any of the works of Octavia Butler.
Niven & Pournelle 's "Lucifer's Hammer"
also have african americans in prominent characters.
Dorothy J Heydt
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>
>I recommended THE STARS MY DESTINATION, partly on the assumption that
>Gully Foyle was black--he's described early on in the book as black,
>but it could just be that he was filthy from being a space castaway....
>he might be a dark-skinned Caucasian.
No, he's a light-skinned Caucasian, probably Irish--or part Irish--
he's described as having "blue-black" hair. He's light enough
for the tattooing to show up against his skin, (both originally,
when it's blue ink, and later, when it's red scar tissue). When
(after having the tattooing removed) he removes the bandages from
his chin and sees a dark color, he exclaims, "He missed the chin!"
till his companion says, "Shut up. That's beard."
Another character, Robin
>Wednesbury, is described as Negro.
That's right.
(In the world of the book, race
>has been cut loose from ethnicity as a side effect of teleportation.)
I'm not sure you can attribute it all to teleportation, though no
doubt it helped speed it up. I assume you're thinking e.g., of Y'ang-
Yeovil, who has one Chinese and one English name, a thorough
grounding in Chinese culture, and does not look Chinese.
Dorothy J. Heydt
djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
University of California
Berkeley
Dorothy J Heydt
>Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
Don't forget Eric Frank Russell's _Men, Martians, and Machines._
In the opening story, _Jay Score_, the narrator says,
"There are very good reasons for everything they do.... For
instance, this stunt of using mixed crews is pretty sensible when
you look into it. On the outward runs toward Mars, the
Asteroids, or beyond, they have white Terrestrials to tend the
engines because they're the ones who perfected modern propulsion
units, know most about them can can nurse them like nobody else.
All ships' surgeons are black Terrestrials because for some
reason none can explain no Negro gets gravity-bends or space
nausea. Every outside repair gang is composed of Martians who
use very little air, are tiptop metal workers and fairly immune
to cosmic-ray burn. As for the inward trips to Venus, they mix
them similarly except that the emergency pilot is always a big
clunker like Jay Score...."
who...
HERE THERE BE SPOILERS....
...is a robot.
Sam Hignett, the black surgeon, is described as a nice guy, a
topnotch surgeon, "but like all doctors--you know, ethical."
There's a little racial/cultural tension between Terrans and
Martians, but not enough to interfere with running the ship.
Martians can breathe Earth-pressure air, but you'll see them make
backstroke motions with their top tentacles and sniff, "I could
swim!" And they're better chess players than anybody and they
never let you forget it. But this is wandering rather far afield
from what you wanted.
Paul J Hollander
>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>that race.
>
>Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST),
>and THE STARS MY DESTINATION.
She might try Andre Norton's books. _Starman's Son_ (= Daybreak 2250
AD)has a black for the hero's friend. The hero was unaware that there
were black skinned humans. _Forerunner Foray_ has a heroine who has
midnight black skin and silver hair. The hero of _The Beast Master_ is
Navaho. _Dragon Magic_ has 4 main characters - black, white, yellow,
and ???. Norton has a good sized section in every SF book store, used
book store, and library (juvenile section) I've been in.
Robert Howard's Conan series has blacks in a number of stories,
generally as bad guys of the strong as an ox but not too bright type.
I just started reading _Terraplane_ by Jack Womack (I think, not sure of
author's name) where the main character is black.
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
Richard Brisbourne
>Yeovil is an English name? It just sounded exotic to me.
There's a town in Somerset called Yeovil.
I read somewhere that Bester wrote much of "The Demolished Man" in
England, hence the English names, taken out of the 'phone book.
---
Richard Brisbourne | | |
+--+- -Soar the big sky- +--+- +--+-
Bury,Lancs,UK | | |
Mark R. Kelly
Certainly one of the most significant sf books in this regard is
Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_, in which it is mentioned, very casually
2/3 of the way through the book, that the main character is Filipino.
Delany (*not* Delaney) makes much of the significance of this in
several of his essays.
--
Mark R. Kelly
ma...@david.rdyne.rockwell.com 72760...@compuserve.com
John Morgan
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net) writes:
>In article <3prh41$o...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I'm not sure you can attribute it all to teleportation, though no
>>doubt it helped speed it up. I assume you're thinking e.g., of Y'ang-
>>Yeovil, who has one Chinese and one English name, a thorough
>>grounding in Chinese culture, and does not look Chinese.
>
>
>
>NEW EDITION of the calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
>
Yeovil is a medium-sized town in the county of Somerset, England.
Having lived there for over 25 years I've never thought of it as
exotic but maybe I've been missing out on something...
John Morgan jmo...@marsh.win-uk.net
John Thompson
He mentions several times how mankind has mixed and blended until there are
no clearly defined races.
Mike Resnick has done a LOT of work based on African history and culture.
He does this overtly in _Ivory_ and the Teddy Roosevelt stories. He also
does a thinly veiled retelling of European Colonialism in Paradise, Purgatory,
and Inferno. Earthmen (read Europeans) with advanced technology trade with,
exploit, and subjugate primitive natives (read Africans), who eventually
win their freedom.
--
John Thompson ( ster...@scsn.net )
-------------------------------------------------
This tag line conTains exactly threee errors.
-------------------------------------------------
Nancy Lebovitz
that if it existed it would be exotic. The *name* Yeovil seemed
so odd to me that (without thinking about it), it might as well have
really been Chinese and/or invented by Bester to sound weird.
No doubt Delany could get three or four long paragraphs out of
this mismatch between writerly intent and readerly perception.
Nancy "the loveliest town name I've ever heard is Far Rockaway
even if people tell me it's a rather dull place" Lebovitz
Craig Becker
How about Vernor Vinge's _Marooned In Realtime_ (which features
a black protagonist). To Vinge and his characters, race (and
sexual preference) matter about as much as eye color. It's one
of the (many) reasons I really like this book: no preachiness
about how these things don't/won't matter in the future--instead,
the author just wrote the book with the same "these things don't
matter" attitude that his characters had.
Craig
--
-- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products (512) 838-8068 Austin, TX USA --
-- Internet: jlpi...@austin.ibm.com IBM VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
-- 'Literal immortality? Outliving the universe?' 'That's what the word --
-- means. Not: dying after a very long time. Just: not dying, period.' --
Nancy Lebovitz
Honey Woodward, and she can be reached at wood...@husc.harvard.edu.
Sion Arrowsmith
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>It wasn't that I thought there might be a town named Yeovil and
>that if it existed it would be exotic. The *name* Yeovil seemed
>so odd to me that (without thinking about it), it might as well have
>really been Chinese and/or invented by Bester to sound weird.
I think the point is that we have a concept of the word "Yeovil" being
a perfectly ordinary proper noun, and maybe even a quintisentially
English one, that it cannot seem exotic whether applied to person or
to place. If it isn't a familiar name in this manner, then, yes, I
suppose it is going to sound exotic -- it's just hard to get that
perspective from here.
>Nancy "the loveliest town name I've ever heard is Far Rockaway
>even if people tell me it's a rather dull place" Lebovitz
I think my vote goes for the hamlet of High Eskelleth, which is in
Arkengarthdale. Honestly.
--
\S |
si...@bast.demon.co.uk | Listen to the music, not the words.
Mari J Stoddard
Joseph Askew <jba...@MFS06.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <3pvdd7$8...@universe.digex.net> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
>Yeovil was automatically recognised by me. A very upper
>class sounding name with more than a hint of pretension.
>
Interesting. Yeovil is the name of a shop girl in Kipling's immortal
saga, _Stalkey and Co._, so I always assumed it was a lower-class
indicator. Just shows how out of it we are over in the US!
--
Mari Stoddard stod...@hinet.medlib.arizona.edu
Arizona Health Sciences Library, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ
http://amber.medlib.arizona.edu/homepage.html 520/626-2925
David Langford
Mari Stoddard (stod...@hinet.medlib.arizona.edu) said/quoted regarding
Y'ang-Yeovil in Bester's novel:
> >Yeovil was automatically recognised by me. A very upper
> >class sounding name with more than a hint of pretension.
>
> Interesting. Yeovil is the name of a shop girl in Kipling's immortal
> saga, _Stalkey and Co._, so I always assumed it was a lower-class
> indicator. Just shows how out of it we are over in the US!
That's Mary Yeo (and her mother, referred to as Mother Yeo) in =Stalky &
Co.= -- not Yeovil.
---------
David Langford -- Reading, Berkshire, UK
ans...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Dana Crom
Mari J Stoddard <stod...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
>In article <jbask1.41...@mfs06.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>Joseph Askew <jba...@MFS06.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>In article <3pvdd7$8...@universe.digex.net> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>>
>>class sounding name with more than a hint of pretension.
>>
>
>Interesting. Yeovil is the name of a shop girl in Kipling's immortal
>saga, _Stalkey and Co._, so I always assumed it was a lower-class
>indicator. Just shows how out of it we are over in the US!
Wasn't that Mary *Yeo*, not Yeovil? It's been a while since I last read
_Stalkey & Co._, but I seem to remember the shorter form.
This might start a tangent - how many sf readers also enjoy Kipling?
I can still remember my grandmother reading me the "Just So Stories" when
I was little, and my delight with his short stories when I got a bit older.
I'd still want to include a Kipling collection on my half-dozen-books-for-a-
desert-island list.
--
-----------------------+------------------------+------------------------------
Dana Crom DoD #0679 | Silicon Graphics, Inc. | Smile - let them *WONDER*
da...@morc.mfg.sgi.com | (415) 390-1449 | what you've been up to . . .
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> This might start a tangent - how many sf readers also enjoy Kipling?
> I'd still want to include a Kipling collection on my half-dozen-books-for-a-
> desert-island list.
You are not alone (to put it mildly :) There is something about Kipling
that makes SF readers appreciate him more than "usual". See _A Separate
Star: A Science Fiction Tribute to Rudyard Kipling_, created by David
Drake & Sandra Miesel. Baen, 1989, 278 p.
Rebecca Drayer
For an absolutely horrendous novel about race in science fiction, try
_Race Against Time_, by Piers Anthony. He writes about a world where all
the races have interbred, leaving a single group of uniformly toned
brown-skinned people. They, in their infinite wisdom, decide that there
should be at least a few people of each "pure" race left, so they breed
them. I thought it was a stupid premise, and poorly written.
******************************************************************************
Rebecca A. Drayer * radr...@stud.med.cornell.edu
First Year Medical Student * radr...@panix.com
Cornell University Medical College *
How come every time I see the light at the end of the tunnel, it turns
out to be a Metroliner?
******************************************************************************
Joseph Askew
>It wasn't that I thought there might be a town named Yeovil and
>that if it existed it would be exotic. The *name* Yeovil seemed
>so odd to me that (without thinking about it), it might as well have
>really been Chinese and/or invented by Bester to sound weird.
Mandarin lacks a "v" and does not have the final "l". An initial
"l" is alright but you do not end words that way.
Yeovil was automatically recognised by me. A very upper
class sounding name with more than a hint of pretension.
Joseph
Jo Walton
> Yeovil is a medium-sized town in the county of Somerset, England.
> Having lived there for over 25 years I've never thought of it as
> exotic but maybe I've been missing out on something...
I wonder whether it is worth pointing out to those on the far side of the pond
that this town is pronounced Yo-vil, not Yee-oh-vil. Which makes it even less
exotic, though it's quite nice.
--
Jo
*************************************************************
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
*************************************************************
Help me colonise an alien planet at Intersection Glasgow '95
*************************************************************
Evan Kirshenbaum
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>that race.
>
>Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
>especially in re African Americans. (She's already got Delaney,
>Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST),
>and THE STARS MY DESTINATION.
A few that come to mind that I haven't seen mentioned yet
LeGuin's _Lathe of Heaven_
The (white) main character has the ability to retroactively
alter the world by dreaming, but he can't control how he does
it. One of the things he tries to do is "solve the color
problem", which he manages to do by making everybody gray.
Unfortunately, this manages to edit out his (black) girlfriend,
because (paraphrasing) "her blackness was an essential part of
her". Later, he un-grays the world and she re-appears.
Silverberg's _Gate of Worlds_
An alternate-history (YA) novel set in a world in which the
Black Plague was more severe, and Europe didn't reach
dominance. The story, set in the late 20th century, follows an
English teenager in his travels through the Aztec empire and
North America. One of his companions is from one of the
African empires. (There are, of course, no African Americans,
in the sense of descendants of imported slaves.)
Piper's _Rite of Passage_
Another YA novel. Set on a colony ship in which race has
become completely unimportant. There is some dialog about
discrimination back on earth, which mentions that the two main
characters' teacher would have been a victim based on his
(African) ancestry. I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly,
but I seem to recall that the dialog goes on to say that that
was silly, and anyway the teacher is no darker than one of the
main characters.
McCaffrey's _Dragonsdawn_
Has a quite multi-racial cast where the characters are proud of
their ancestry, but where race seems to have become irrelevant.
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories | The whole idea of our government is
1500 Page Mill Road, Building 4A | this: if enough people get together
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | and act in concert, they can take
| something and not pay for it.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(415)857-7572
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> Piper's _Rite of Passage_ [snip]
Panshin, not Piper, was the culprit.
Paul J Hollander
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>In article <3po3kn$e...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
>>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>>that race.
>>
>>Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
>>especially in re African Americans. (She's already got Delaney,
>>Butler, Heinlein (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, MAGIC, INC., THE STAR BEAST),
>>and THE STARS MY DESTINATION.
>
>A few that come to mind that I haven't seen mentioned yet
>
>
> Piper's _Rite of Passage_
I think this was by Alexi Panshin.
> Another YA novel. Set on a colony ship in which race has
> become completely unimportant. There is some dialog about
> discrimination back on earth, which mentions that the two main
> characters' teacher would have been a victim based on his
> (African) ancestry. I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly,
> but I seem to recall that the dialog goes on to say that that
> was silly, and anyway the teacher is no darker than one of the
> main characters.
>
>(snip)
There was a short story set in a Cape Canaveral motel, with newsmen
waiting for an Earth ship bringing back the first Martians. The
newsmen spend the night telling ethnic jokes, with Martians replacing
blacks, Italians, Polacks, etc. At the end the manager says the
discovery of Martians won't make any difference, and the black janitor
says that he expects a big difference. But I can't remember author and
title. Anybody know?
Richard Treitel
|> This might start a tangent - how many sf readers also enjoy Kipling?
Well, leaving aside his real ScF (_With the Night Mail_; maybe
Ahasuerus knows of more), Kipling set most of his work in an
environment that was decidedly alien to the typical middle-class
Britisher: temperatures beyond the limits at which life as we knew it
could be sustained, natives whose food was not easily processed by our
metabolisms (to say nothing of the difficulty we had with their
religious beliefs), exotic diseases and dangerous animals secreting
nerve toxins into our bloodstreams, months of travel time by the
fastest ships ... and, in best ScF tradition, he represented that very
few of us colonists could come anywhere near to understanding what
made the place tick, though we were expert at blowing it up and
killing the natives.
And he was a superb story-teller. YMMV, but I get plenty sensawunder
whenever I re-read _Kim_.
-- Richard
(If my employer holds these views, it hasn't told me.)
Loren Joseph MacGregor
(Nancy Lebovitz) wrote as follows:
>
> A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
> in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
> you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
> that race.
You asked a question about Gully Foyle's race, and (when I first read
the book) I thought of him as caucasian, "blackened" from engine grease
-- like a grease monkey at a mechanic's. This opinion was strengthened
when Bester described Foyle's teacher, Robin Wednesday as negro. At the
time the book came out, "black" was not a common appelation for "negro"
in the United States.
You might also have your friend look at Andre Norton, who uses race
throughout her books, comparing and contrasting "a future" with the
present. Kana Karr in "Star Guard," for example, is Malay admixed with
other races; Norton presents this very early by saying something like
"His amazement didn't show because of the masklike face he'd inherited
from his Malay grandfather."
The world of the future I portrayed in "The Net" appears somewhat
misleadingly to be settled from the U.S. In fact, what will be shown in
the sequel is that most of space was initially settled from a colony
originating in the remnants of British Hong Kong.
-- LJM
Bruce Baugh
In article <3pu6ev$b...@marvin.scsn.net>,
ster...@scsn.net (John Thompson) wrote:
:Mike Resnick has done a LOT of work based on African history and culture.
:He does this overtly in _Ivory_ and the Teddy Roosevelt stories. He also
:does a thinly veiled retelling of European Colonialism in Paradise, Purgatory,
:and Inferno. Earthmen (read Europeans) with advanced technology trade with,
:exploit, and subjugate primitive natives (read Africans), who eventually
:win their freedom.
...just so that people don't get the wrong idea about these books,
it's worth noting that they are Not stories with happy endings.
Natives and outsiders alike are capable of base deeds, self-interest
pursued self-destructively, idealism gone awry, good intentions
based on inaccurate or incomplete information, all the things that
make real history such a mess. Many people suffer unnecessarily, and
improvement comes hard, if at all.
bruceab@teleport.com___________http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/
List Manager, Christlib, for Christian and libertarian concerns
Preview S.M. Stirling's forthcoming novel DRAKON at my home page
Finger me for PGP 2.6.2 key. "Proclaim liberty throughout the land."
What is the eye in the food pyramid?
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Stephen Dedman
>In article <D97DD...@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>,
>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>In article <3po3kn$e...@universe.digex.net>,
>>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>>A friend of mine is writing a paper about the construction of race
>>>in sf--if I understand it correctly, this means how a writer lets
>>>you know what race a character is, and what's implied/said about
>>>that race.
>>>
The story is 'The Day After the Martians Came' by Frederick Pohl. It's in
his collection _The Day the Martians Came_, and in Harlan Ellison's
_Dangerous Visions_.
Stephen Dedman
Former Sf bookshop manager, Aussi Sf writer
Juliana Pickrell
: >
: > Interesting. Yeovil is the name of a shop girl in Kipling's immortal
: > saga, _Stalkey and Co._, so I always assumed it was a lower-class
: That's Mary Yeo (and her mother, referred to as Mother Yeo) in =Stalky &
: Co.= -- not Yeovil.
Known here in the U.S. as Yeo Mama.
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> da...@morc.mfg.sgi.com (Dana Crom) writes:
> |> This might start a tangent - how many sf readers also enjoy Kipling?
>
> Well, leaving aside his real ScF (_With the Night Mail_; maybe
_Kipling's Science Fiction_. Presented by John Brunner. TOR, 1992, xiv,
178 p. 0312853556
Reprinted as:
_The Science Fiction Stories of Rudyard Kipling_. Secaucus, N.J., Carol
Pub. Group, 1994, xiv, 178 p. 0806515082
Contents:
1. A Matter of Fact
2. The Ship That Found Herself
3. .007
4 "Wireless"
5. With the Night Mail (abridged)
6. As Easy as A.B.C.
7. In the Same Boat
8. The Eye of Allah
9. Unprofessional
10.The Fairies' Siege
_Kipling's Fantasy_. Presented by John Brunner. TOR, 1992, xiv, 206 p.
0312853548
Contents:
1. By word of mouth
2. The finances of the gods
3. "The finest story in the world"
4. The children of the zodias
5. The Bridge-Builders
6. The sing-song of old man kangaroo
7. "They"
8. The house surgeon
9. The knife and the naked chalk
10.The village that voted the earth was flat
11.The gardener
12.When earth's last picture is painted
Emma Pease
>_Kipling's Fantasy_. Presented by John Brunner. TOR, 1992, xiv, 206 p.
>0312853548
>Contents:
>9. The knife and the naked chalk
Except for the framing story I'm incline to think this is science
fiction rather than fantasy (even though the characters think the
gods are involved).
No 'Brushwood Boy'?
Emma
--
---------- /\~~/\
Emma Pease |__\/__|
em...@csli.stanford.edu | /\* | unsolicited commercial email will
Net spinster \/__\/ be returned to sender and postmaster
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> aha...@clark.net (Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew) writes: [snip]
> >_Kipling's Fantasy_. Presented by John Brunner. TOR, 1992, xiv, 206 p.
>
> No 'Brushwood Boy'?
Nope. Kipling wrote too much fantasy (both straight and borderline) to
collect in one paperback without making it unwieldy. _The Brushwood Boy_
doesn't seem to have been reprinted by itself since the early 1900's (too
short), but it is available in assorted anthologies/collections.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Paul J Hollander <phol...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>In article <D97DD...@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>,
>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Piper's _Rite of Passage_
>
>I think this was by Alexi Panshin.
I knew that. Really I did. I just tend to get those "P"-authors
mixed up.
One more that should be mentioned is Richard Lupoff's _Into the
Aether_. I won't spoil this one, but (especially if you're reading
for portrayals of African Americans), you may need this warning: Make
sure you read at least to chapter 12. You still may not like it, but
I've heard people give up early and completely miss the point.
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories | When correctly viewed,
1500 Page Mill Road, Building 4A | Everything is lewd.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | I could tell you things
| about Peter Pan,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | and the Wizard of Oz--
(415)857-7572 | there's a dirty old man!
Tracey S Rosenberg
And don't forget her cello-playing brother, Yeo Yeo Ma.
Tracey
having a rotten day and taking it out on the Net
Kevin B. O'Brien
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>In article <3pu6ev$b...@marvin.scsn.net>,
>ster...@scsn.net (John Thompson) wrote:
>:Mike Resnick has done a LOT of work based on African history and culture.
>...just so that people don't get the wrong idea about these books,
>it's worth noting that they are Not stories with happy endings.
>Natives and outsiders alike are capable of base deeds, self-interest
>pursued self-destructively, idealism gone awry, good intentions
>based on inaccurate or incomplete information, all the things that
>make real history such a mess. Many people suffer unnecessarily, and
>improvement comes hard, if at all.
Since Mike *is* very knowledgable about Africa, he could scarcely
write the stories any other way. Africa is a tragedy in every sense of
the word.
Kevin B. O'Brien
ko...@ix.netcom.com
Paid for by the Tirebiter for Political Solutions
Committee, Sector R
Bruce Baugh
In article <3qdb87$h...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
ko...@ix.netcom.com (Kevin B. O'Brien) wrote:
:bru...@teleport.com (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
:>:Mike Resnick has done a LOT of work based on African history and culture.
:
:>...just so that people don't get the wrong idea about these books,
:>it's worth noting that they are Not stories with happy endings.
:>Natives and outsiders alike are capable of base deeds, self-interest
:>pursued self-destructively, idealism gone awry, good intentions
:>based on inaccurate or incomplete information, all the things that
:>make real history such a mess. Many people suffer unnecessarily, and
:>improvement comes hard, if at all.
:
: Since Mike *is* very knowledgable about Africa, he could scarcely
:write the stories any other way. Africa is a tragedy in every sense of
:the word.
Yes, indeed. And in dealing honestly with it, Resnick is highly
unusual. Virtually all of the sf I've read drawing on real-world
history is pathetically polemical - there are the Heroes, who can do
no wrong (at least none with consequences lasting beyond the end of
the story), and the Villains, who can do no right, and the whole
deal.
In Resnick's worlds, as in the one I live in, there's a smooth
continuum of people of varying degrees of likeability. Sometimes
they get what they're after, sometimes not; sometimes this is a good
thing, sometimes not. But it's a lot more interesting (to me) than
polemic.
bruceab@teleport.com___________http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/
List Manager, Christlib, for Christian and libertarian concerns
Preview S.M. Stirling's forthcoming novel DRAKON at my home page
Finger me for PGP 2.6.2 key. "Proclaim liberty throughout the land."
What is the eye in the food pyramid?
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Robert Pearlman
> [snip]
> _Kipling's Fantasy_. Presented by John Brunner. TOR, 1992, xiv, 206 p.
> Contents:
> >10.The village that voted the earth was flat
It's a good story, but not a fantasy. It's about the world's first
speed trap. Honest.
Robert Pearlman
Christopher Rowe
(Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <3po3kn$e...@universe.digex.net>,
> Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
> >Please let me know about any books that are interesting about race--
>
> Don't forget Eric Frank Russell's _Men, Martians, and Machines._
> In the opening story, _Jay Score_, the narrator says,
>
> "There are very good reasons for everything they do.... For
> instance, this stunt of using mixed crews is pretty sensible when
> you look into it. On the outward runs toward Mars, the
> Asteroids, or beyond, they have white Terrestrials to tend the
> engines because they're the ones who perfected modern propulsion
> units, know most about them can can nurse them like nobody else.
> All ships' surgeons are black Terrestrials because for some
> reason none can explain no Negro gets gravity-bends or space
> nausea. Every outside repair gang is composed of Martians who
> use very little air, are tiptop metal workers and fairly immune
I can't think of the author or title, but I remember a story involving
spaceships propelled by solar sails, where the "deck crew" were all
Australian aborigines. Their suitability the job had something yo do with
their resistance to sunburn. I recall it vaguely as a fairly interesting
modern story. Can anyone remember this one?
Edward Bornstein
[ snip ]
: This might start a tangent - how many sf readers also enjoy Kipling?
That first of all depends on how many have ever kipled ....
Someone had to say it.
James Nicoll
Christopher Rowe <cr...@access.victoria.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>I can't think of the author or title, but I remember a story involving
>spaceships propelled by solar sails, where the "deck crew" were all
>Australian aborigines. Their suitability the job had something yo do with
>their resistance to sunburn. I recall it vaguely as a fairly interesting
>modern story. Can anyone remember this one?
_Spacewar Blues_ by Richard Lupoff, published in the late 1970s
by Dell, and with intros by Lupoff, Lupoff's agent, and Harlan Ellison
concerning the question of whether or not Ellison sitting on the original
story for some years (For inclusion in _More Dangerous Visions_), leading
to a one decade delay in the publication of SWB, was bad for Lupoff's
career.
James Nicoll
--
"You stopped shivering."
"Terror seems to have warmed me up."
Nancy Lebovitz
Sion Arrowsmith <s...@bast.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3pvdd7$8...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>It wasn't that I thought there might be a town named Yeovil and
>>that if it existed it would be exotic. The *name* Yeovil seemed
>>so odd to me that (without thinking about it), it might as well have
>>really been Chinese and/or invented by Bester to sound weird.
>
>a perfectly ordinary proper noun, and maybe even a quintisentially
>English one, that it cannot seem exotic whether applied to person or
>to place. If it isn't a familiar name in this manner, then, yes, I
>suppose it is going to sound exotic -- it's just hard to get that
>perspective from here.
Sounds quite reasonable to me--and now that I think about it,
"Yeovil" wouldn't have sounded nearly so exotic if the character's
first name were James.
>
>>Nancy "the loveliest town name I've ever heard is Far Rockaway
>>even if people tell me it's a rather dull place" Lebovitz
>
>I think my vote goes for the hamlet of High Eskelleth, which is in
>Arkengarthdale. Honestly.
>
I might switch my vote to High Eskelleth--it's as good a high fantasy name
as I've ever seen. Arkengarthdale, on the other hand, sounds as though
it belongs in second-rate humorous fantasy. What's the derivation
of Eskelleth?
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
NEW EDITION of the calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
James Nicoll
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
snip
>Sounds quite reasonable to me--and now that I think about it,
>"Yeovil" wouldn't have sounded nearly so exotic if the character's
>first name were James.
Hmmmph. Maybe nobody sings canticles about my name, but
I'm sure there are folks in Asia or Africa who think James sounds exotic.
res...@delphi.com
words, but, to me at least, it's hard enough to describe what I've seen
there; I don't know if I am a good enough writer to convincingly describe
what I've never seen on that bedeviled continent.
-- Mike Resnick
Jo Walton
nan...@universe.digex.net "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
Well as I have James Johnson's _Place Names of England and Wales_ next to the
computer at the moment I thought I'd look it up, only to be disappointed.
It covers most things, but not all hamlets. Esk, obviously, comes from the Q-
Celtic or possibly Pictish word meaning water, or swamp. FWIW.
Jo Walton
J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
> In article <3qj9sr$d...@universe.digex.net>
> nan...@universe.digex.net "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
>
> > In article <3q0ask$1...@bast.demon.co.uk>,
> > Sion Arrowsmith <s...@bast.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >I think my vote goes for the hamlet of High Eskelleth, which is in
> > >Arkengarthdale. Honestly.
> > >
> > I might switch my vote to High Eskelleth--it's as good a high fantasy name
> > as I've ever seen. Arkengarthdale, on the other hand, sounds as though
> > it belongs in second-rate humorous fantasy. What's the derivation
> > of Eskelleth?
>
> Well as I have James Johnson's _Place Names of England and Wales_ next to the
> computer at the moment I thought I'd look it up, only to be disappointed.
> It covers most things, but not all hamlets. Esk, obviously, comes from the Q-
> Celtic or possibly Pictish word meaning water, or swamp. FWIW.
I'm an idiot - it obviously comes from Eschevedd, meaning watershed. Which
means that "th" is hard, not soft, making it a much less impressive fantasy
name.
Nancy Lebovitz
Jo Walton <J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <802078...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>
> J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
>
>> In article <3qj9sr$d...@universe.digex.net>
>> nan...@universe.digex.net "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
>>
>> > In article <3q0ask$1...@bast.demon.co.uk>,
>> > Sion Arrowsmith <s...@bast.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >I think my vote goes for the hamlet of High Eskelleth, which is in
>> > >Arkengarthdale. Honestly.
>> > >
>> > I might switch my vote to High Eskelleth--it's as good a high fantasy name
>> > as I've ever seen. Arkengarthdale, on the other hand, sounds as though
>> > it belongs in second-rate humorous fantasy. What's the derivation
>> > of Eskelleth?
>>
>> Well as I have James Johnson's _Place Names of England and Wales_ next to the
>> computer at the moment I thought I'd look it up, only to be disappointed.
>> It covers most things, but not all hamlets. Esk, obviously, comes from the Q-
>> Celtic or possibly Pictish word meaning water, or swamp. FWIW.
>
>I'm an idiot - it obviously comes from Eschevedd, meaning watershed. Which
>means that "th" is hard, not soft, making it a much less impressive fantasy
>name.
>
good example of rapid topic drift.
If you used High Eskelleth in a fantasy novel, poeple would pronounce it
with a soft "th" anyway. :-)
David Langford
s...@bast.demon.co.uk (Sion Arrowsmith) on town names:
> >Nancy "the loveliest town name I've ever heard is Far Rockaway
> >even if people tell me it's a rather dull place" Lebovitz
>
> I think my vote goes for the hamlet of High Eskelleth, which is in
> Arkengarthdale.
How about Lostwithiel in Cornwall? Pure Tolkien. (But unfortunately it's
rather a boring dump, or used to be....)
---------
David Langford
ans...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Braindance
: In article <802179...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>,
: Jo Walton <J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >I'm an idiot - it obviously comes from Eschevedd, meaning watershed. Which
: >name.
: If you used High Eskelleth in a fantasy novel, poeple would pronounce it
: with a soft "th" anyway. :-)
So spell it "Eskelledh" and include a note that "dh" = a hard "th."
Can't be any worse than Tolkien's pronunciation keys.
--
Finger ha...@netcom.com %\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\
"Living in a bookshop is like living in a warehouse of explosives.
Those shelves are ranked with the most furious combustibles in the
world--the brains of men." --THE HAUNTED BOOKSHOP
%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\%\% Christopher Morley