Looking for a recomendation
lan...@my-deja.com
I'm looking for somebody to recommend a good book for me to read.
I've just finished reading "The Dragon and the George" by Gordon
Dixon.. and I really enjoyed it. When I look over my past record of
books I really liked many of them have been along a similar
genre.. "normal person finds them selves in unusual circumstances"..
I sortta equate "the Dragon and the George" to an almost Narnia
Chronicles type book.. which is good.. cause I loved those books
when I was a kid.
Other books that I REALLY like are the Callahans books by Spider
Robinson.. and anything written by AC Clark, or Heinlein (again.. JOB:
A Comedy of Justice is one of my favourites and follows the similar
motif of 'regular guy in VERY irrigular circumstances does the best he
can' sort of story line.. I like that .. am I boring?.. probably)
That said.. what would you recommend? I'm up for options.. I
thought I'd ask the folks that were more well read than myself for
recommendations on books I might enjoy reading.
Please feel free to respond to me privately at my actual email
address: which is "lana<at>nucleus<dot>com" replacing the at and the
dot as appropriate.
Cheers folks! and thanks in advance for any recommendations
Lana
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Brenda
lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> That said.. what would you recommend? I'm up for options.. I
> thought I'd ask the folks that were more well read than myself for
> recommendations on books I might enjoy reading.
L. Sprague de Camp's INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER series.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Richard A. Knaak
>
> L. Sprague de Camp's INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER series.
>
> Brenda
>
>
One of my all-time favorites, Brenda!
Richard A. Knaak
Michael Hargreave Mawson
writes
>
>
>lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> That said.. what would you recommend? I'm up for options.. I
>> thought I'd ask the folks that were more well read than myself for
>> recommendations on books I might enjoy reading.
>
>L. Sprague de Camp's INCOMPLETE ENCHANTER series.
Oh, yes - I forgot that one. Seconded, emphatically.
ATB
--
Mike
Michael Hargreave Mawson, author of "Eyewitness in the Crimea,"
to be published by Greenhill Books in March, 2001.
See http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/Books.html for details.
Michael Hargreave Mawson
>Good Day folks,
>
> I'm looking for somebody to recommend a good book for me to read.
>I've just finished reading "The Dragon and the George" by Gordon
>Dixon.. and I really enjoyed it.
Ye Gods! If this is the book I think it is, I thought it was
unutterably terrible, and if the author hadn't been giving copies away
for nothing, I'd have demanded my money back.
> When I look over my past record of
>books I really liked many of them have been along a similar
>genre.. "normal person finds them selves in unusual circumstances"..
A favourite of mine as well.
>
> Other books that I REALLY like are the Callahans books by Spider
>Robinson.. and anything written by AC Clark, or Heinlein (again.. JOB:
>A Comedy of Justice is one of my favourites and follows the similar
>motif of 'regular guy in VERY irrigular circumstances does the best he
>can' sort of story line.. I like that .. am I boring?.. probably)
>
> That said.. what would you recommend?
Poul Anderson's "Corridors of Time" springs to mind - similar in many
ways to Heinlein's "Glory Road", though a touch darker.
Clifford D. Simak's "Time is the Simplest Thing"
R. A. MacAvoy - "The Book of Kells"
"Replay" by the bloke whose name nobody can remember (I can't put my
hands on my copy at the moment, but think it's in the FAQ).
John Wyndham's "Midwich Cuckoos"
> I'm up for options.. I
>thought I'd ask the folks that were more well read than myself for
>recommendations on books I might enjoy reading.
I wouldn't necessarily claim to be better read than anyone else, but
with the notable exception of "The Dragon and the George" we do seem to
have similar tastes. That being the case, check out Steve Parker's
Hugo Winners website. He reads all these books, reviews them, and I
then just read the ones he likes, and avoid the ones he doesn't. Works
remarkably well.
>
> Please feel free to respond to me privately at my actual email
>address: which is "lana<at>nucleus<dot>com" replacing the at and the
>dot as appropriate.
Much more fun to get a discussion going on-line, I feel. :-)
Brenda
Michael Hargreave Mawson wrote:
> In article <93srd8$o60$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lan...@my-deja.com writes
> >Good Day folks,
> >
> > I'm looking for somebody to recommend a good book for me to read.
> >I've just finished reading "The Dragon and the George" by Gordon
> >Dixon.. and I really enjoyed it.
>
> Ye Gods! If this is the book I think it is, I thought it was
> unutterably terrible, and if the author hadn't been giving copies away
> for nothing, I'd have demanded my money back.
The first one was very tolerable. The sequels are much less worthwhile, and
there are a lot of them.
ar...@my-deja.com
lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Good Day folks,
>
> I'm looking for somebody to recommend a good book for me to read.
> I've just finished reading "The Dragon and the George" by Gordon
> Dixon.. and I really enjoyed it. When I look over my past record of
> books I really liked many of them have been along a similar
> genre.. "normal person finds them selves in unusual circumstances"..
>
Anthony's Happy Policeman
EdLincoln
>From: lan...@my-deja.com
>Date: Sun, Jan 14, 2001 1:33 PM
>Message-id: <93srd8$o60$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
This is one of my favourite themes as well. I would recomend
1.) The Fionavar Tapestry (The best Tolkien rip off ever featuring characters
from our world
2.) The Changeling
EdLincoln
>From: lan...@my-deja.com
>Date: Sun, Jan 14, 2001 1:33 PM
>Message-id: <93srd8$o60$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
I apologize, my computersent my last message prematurely.
I like this type ofsci fi as well. I would recomend
1.) The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay (best Tolkien rip off ever).
heavier than "The Dragon and the George"
2.) her Majesty's Wizard by Christopher Stasheff (stylistic similer to "The
Dragon and the George")
3.) The Changeling War by Peter Garrison
4.) Beyond thew Veil by Mark Anthony
5.) Windmaster's Bain by Tom Dietz ("stand by me" style growing up story mixed
with celtic mythology set in the American South)
6.) The Guardians of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg.
I am always looking for clever explanations for why humans from our world are
special and necessary in the alien or magical other world or planet.
Michael Hargreave Mawson
>Good Day folks,
>
> I'm looking for somebody to recommend a good book for me to read.
Lana,
Another excellent book that I have just remembered on this theme
(ordinary guy in extraordinary circumstances) is David Brin's "The
Practice Effect". The ordinary guy is actually a high-powered
scientist, but this doesn't actually help him very much... <g>
Robert Amesz
> lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> When I look over my past record of books I really liked many of
>> them have been along a similar genre.. "normal person finds them
>> selves in unusual circumstances"..
>
>Clifford Simak was pretty good at this kind of novel. Also Patricia
>Anthony's Happy Policeman
Has anyone mentioned P.K. Dick here? Mind you, he usually is a bit more
extreme, often it's more of a: "Joe Loser finds himself in very weird,
even surreal circumstances, while totally helpless to do anything about
it."
Wonderful stuff, well, most of the time anyway. It's something of an
aquired taste, I think.
Robert Amesz
lan...@my-deja.com
> Ye Gods! If this is the book I think it is, I thought it was
> unutterably terrible, and if the author hadn't been giving copies away
> for nothing, I'd have demanded my money back.
ohhh.. common now it wasn't T H A T bad.. and it's that much better
for being small enough to read on the commute to work in about 3 or 4
days .. like when he wakes up appalled that he'd just eaten all the
food in the in.. surely you felt for him .. I thought it was a fun
little book
> Poul Anderson's "Corridors of Time" springs to mind - similar in many
> ways to Heinlein's "Glory Road", though a touch darker.
> Clifford D. Simak's "Time is the Simplest Thing"
> R. A. MacAvoy - "The Book of Kells"
> John Wyndham's "Midwich Cuckoos"
>
Thanks for your recommendations .. I've written them down!
cheers
lan...@my-deja.com
so many wonderful sounding suggestions from people
Although I've never been hooked on Tolkien like some folks.. That one
sounds good!
Lana
lan...@my-deja.com
In article <20010115013828...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote:
of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg.
>
> I am always looking for clever explanations for why humans from our
world are
> special and necessary in the alien or magical other world or planet.
Damn.. I was hoping nobody would ask that. I started asking that
question when I first read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.. I
mean please.. these guys can't solve their own witch problems so they
have to get 4 kids from London to sort them out... But
nevertheless.. if you can block the christian symbolism out of your
mind with your special bible-thumping-protection-shield they're a good
bunch of books.
I came to the conclusion that it's a ploy to get un-imaginative folks
like me to care about a bunch of aliens/magical beings.. If you start
off by convincing me that I'm cheering for the humans.. and the humans
support the aliens/creatures/beings... then maybe it's easier to suck
somebody like me into a story.
who knows.
I do know that I'm doing this on work time.. so I better start thinking
about Flash and Web design and stop thinking about witches and dragons
for a while.
Cheers!
Michael Hargreave Mawson
>Hey..
>
>> Ye Gods! If this is the book I think it is, I thought it was
>> unutterably terrible, and if the author hadn't been giving copies away
>> for nothing, I'd have demanded my money back.
>
>
> ohhh.. common now it wasn't T H A T bad.. and it's that much better
>for being small enough to read on the commute to work in about 3 or 4
>days .. like when he wakes up appalled that he'd just eaten all the
>food in the in.. surely you felt for him .. I thought it was a fun
>little book
I'm glad I said "*IF* this is the book I'm thinking of..." - because it
wasn't! I've just rooted through the "unreadable rubbish" shelf, and
there it was - "For the Crown and the Dragon" by Stephen Hunt. Do not
read this. Jump off a cliff before even being tempted to turn to page
one. Eviscerate self and loved ones with a rusty spoon before even
contemplating reading this...
It would appear that I perhaps ought to seek out "The Dragon and the
George" in order to ensure that I don't make the same mistake again. :-)
>
>> Poul Anderson's "Corridors of Time" springs to mind - similar in many
>> ways to Heinlein's "Glory Road", though a touch darker.
>> Clifford D. Simak's "Time is the Simplest Thing"
>> R. A. MacAvoy - "The Book of Kells"
>> John Wyndham's "Midwich Cuckoos"
>>
>
>Thanks for your recommendations .. I've written them down!
Enjoy.
Brenda
Michael Hargreave Mawson wrote:
> In article <9418ch$auj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lan...@my-deja.com writes
> >Hey..
> >
> >> Ye Gods! If this is the book I think it is, I thought it was
> >> unutterably terrible, and if the author hadn't been giving copies away
> >> for nothing, I'd have demanded my money back.
> >
> >
> > ohhh.. common now it wasn't T H A T bad.. and it's that much better
> >for being small enough to read on the commute to work in about 3 or 4
> >days .. like when he wakes up appalled that he'd just eaten all the
> >food in the in.. surely you felt for him .. I thought it was a fun
> >little book
>
> I'm glad I said "*IF* this is the book I'm thinking of..." - because it
> wasn't! I've just rooted through the "unreadable rubbish" shelf, and
> there it was - "For the Crown and the Dragon" by Stephen Hunt. Do not
> read this. Jump off a cliff before even being tempted to turn to page
> one. Eviscerate self and loved ones with a rusty spoon before even
> contemplating reading this...
>
> It would appear that I perhaps ought to seek out "The Dragon and the
> George" in order to ensure that I don't make the same mistake again. :-)
Whew, you relieve my mind. Do read DRAGON AND THE GEORGE, just to be sure.
Karl Elvis MacRae
EdLincoln <edli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I like this type ofsci fi as well. I would recomend
>
>1.) The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay (best Tolkien rip off ever).
>heavier than "The Dragon and the George"
While I second the recommendation, I would disagree with the phrase
"Tolkien rip off". While it's clearly based on the same archetypes
Tolkien started with, it's also based on pretty much every other
classic fantasy archetypes you could think of; all of this very
much on purpose. It's a tribute to, or a distilation of, all of these
elements that we base most of our modern fantasy on.
Brilliantly done - but not a "rip off".
Of course, if you ment that facetiously, nevermind. =B^)
-Karl
--
Karl Elvis MacRae VLSI CAD Apple Computer km...@apple.com
lan...@my-deja.com
In article <b9cXbNBw...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,> I'm glad I
said "*IF* this is the book I'm thinking of..." - because it
> wasn't! I've just rooted through the "unreadable rubbish" shelf, and
> there it was - "For the Crown and the Dragon" by Stephen Hunt. Do
not
> read this. Jump off a cliff before even being tempted to turn to
page
> one. Eviscerate self and loved ones with a rusty spoon before even
> contemplating reading this...
Damn.. now you've got me interested in it. "what could be so bad?"
I keep asking myself.. The same portion of my brain is working
right now that has me thinking I should rent and see "Titanic" (but
which thankfully has been overpowered by the 'reasonable' part of my
brain)..
Now if I could just find a good rusty spoon and a nice high cliff..
hm......
>
> It would appear that I perhaps ought to seek out "The Dragon and the
> George" in order to ensure that I don't make the same mistake
again. :-)
You should.. it's not a bad little book.. it stops short in a few
places.. and could have been a few extra chapters long .. it's one of
those books that makes you ask the question: "why are ALL the people
who end up getting shipped to alternate worlds and find themselves in
the body of a Dragon ALWAYS teachers of medieval literature and well
studied in heraldry"
Cheers!
David Given
lan...@my-deja.com writes:
[...]
> Damn.. I was hoping nobody would ask that. I started asking that
> question when I first read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.. I
> mean please.. these guys can't solve their own witch problems so they
> have to get 4 kids from London to sort them out...
Not *quite* as unreasonable as all that; it was well known in Narnia that
in order to solve the problem, you needed a Son of Adam and a Daughter of
Eve. i.e., a human. There weren't any humans in Narnia, so they needed to
import some.
What I don't understand is why they didn't import some from Arkenland or
Calormene. Presumably the White Witch had fairly stringent border
controls.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "I have a mind like a steel trap. It's
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | rusty and full of dead mice." ---
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | Anonymous, on rasfc
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
Jerry Friedman
d...@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote:
> In article <94199l$bmh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> lan...@my-deja.com writes:
> [...]
> > Damn.. I was hoping nobody would ask that. I started asking that
> > question when I first read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.. I
> > mean please.. these guys can't solve their own witch problems so
they
> > have to get 4 kids from London to sort them out...
>
> Not *quite* as unreasonable as all that; it was well known in Narnia
that
> in order to solve the problem, you needed a Son of Adam and a Daughter
of
> Eve. i.e., a human. There weren't any humans in Narnia, so they needed
to
> import some.
And the reason humans are so special is that Adam, Eve, and Jesus were
human. See also _Perelandra_.
> What I don't understand is why they didn't import some from Arkenland
or
> Calormene. Presumably the White Witch had fairly stringent border
> controls.
Couldn't be Calormenes because they didn't believe in Aslan and were not
qualified to take up the White Man's burden. (I'm half joking.) As for
the Arkenlanders, someone who remembers the books better will have to
give that a try.
Speaking of Lewis and _Perelandra_, Lana, you might try Lewis's "space
trilogy": _Out of the Silent Planet_, _Perelandra_, and _That Hideous
Strength_. Though a non-Christian, I enjoyed them greatly, but the
second and third books are *highly* Christian. (You could stop after
the first or second; they're self-contained.)
Also try Lawrence Watt-Evans's trilogy _Out of this World_, _In the
Empire of Shadow_, and _The Reign of the Brown Magician_ (if I have the
titles right).
I didn't like the Thomas Covenant books that much, but they definitely
fit your requirements. By Stephen R. Donaldson.
Gene Wolfe: _Castleview_ and _There are Doors_. (These books aren't
connected.)
Poul Anderson: _Three Hearts and Three Lions_. A classic. Similar tone
to _The Dragon and the George_.
There's also a whole genre of "urban fantasy" in which the mysterious
events take place in our world, which has more in common with Faerie
than we thought. I like _The War for the Oaks_, by Emma Bull, and _Tam
Lin_, by Pamela Dean.
--
Jerry Friedman
jfri...@nnm.cc.nm.nos
Translate nos to us / Traduzca nos en us
and all the disclaimers
Joe Slater
>>[I]t was well known in Narnia that in order to solve the problem, you
Jerry Friedman <jfried...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>And the reason humans are so special is that Adam, Eve, and Jesus were
>human. See also _Perelandra_.
And, incidentally, that all future species would be humaniform. I have
no idea why _Star Trek_ didn't adopt this quite reasonable
explanation.
>> What I don't understand is why they didn't import some from Arkenland
>>or Calormene. Presumably the White Witch had fairly stringent border
>> controls.
>Couldn't be Calormenes because they didn't believe in Aslan and were not
>qualified to take up the White Man's burden. (I'm half joking.) As for
>the Arkenlanders, someone who remembers the books better will have to
>give that a try.
I think the Archenlanders were only half-human - the children of Frank
and Helen married dryads and river-gods, didn't they?
>Speaking of Lewis and _Perelandra_, Lana, you might try Lewis's "space
>trilogy": _Out of the Silent Planet_, _Perelandra_, and _That Hideous
>Strength_. Though a non-Christian, I enjoyed them greatly, but the
>second and third books are *highly* Christian.
They're hardly orthodox theology, although I think it's unlikely that
there'd be any actual heresies in them.
jds
--
"I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home."
- Luke Skywalker describing dating rituals on Tattooine.
Brenda
Jerry Friedman wrote:
I think it is a mistake to analyze the Narnia books too closely -- they were
not written with that in mind. It is obvious to me that Lewis had not
delved deeply into the "Sons of Adam" requirement, and that he had not
planned in advance for other nations in that world. When he came to
offhandedly inventing them (along about THE HORSE AND HIS BOY, IMO) it was
too late to go back and rejigger the first couple books. There are -large-
areas in children's fantasy that simply cannot bear up under rigid adult
dissection. (Think for instance of the -economy- of Narnia. Talking
animals, dwarves, and humans -- what do they -eat-? Is there an underclass,
the Eloi to the Morlocks, of non-talking cows, sheep, pigs, etc., whose lot
it is to supply the beef and bacon and lamb chops?)
Joe Slater
>I think it is a mistake to analyze the Narnia books too closely -- they were
>not written with that in mind. It is obvious to me that Lewis had not
>delved deeply into the "Sons of Adam" requirement, and that he had not
>planned in advance for other nations in that world. When he came to
>offhandedly inventing them (along about THE HORSE AND HIS BOY, IMO) it was
>too late to go back and rejigger the first couple books. There are -large-
>areas in children's fantasy that simply cannot bear up under rigid adult
>dissection. (Think for instance of the -economy- of Narnia. Talking
>animals, dwarves, and humans -- what do they -eat-? Is there an underclass,
>the Eloi to the Morlocks, of non-talking cows, sheep, pigs, etc., whose lot
>it is to supply the beef and bacon and lamb chops?)
Yes; this is stated explicitly. The children kill a bear in _Prince
Caspian_ but are at first worried that it was a Talking Bear. Note
that Talking Beasts can lose the power of speech if they behave badly;
I suppose this means that rash decisions may make you rasher.
Michael Hargreave Mawson
>Good Day!
>
>In article <b9cXbNBw...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,> I'm glad I
>said "*IF* this is the book I'm thinking of..." - because it
>> wasn't! I've just rooted through the "unreadable rubbish" shelf, and
>> there it was - "For the Crown and the Dragon" by Stephen Hunt. Do
>not
>> read this. Jump off a cliff before even being tempted to turn to
>page
>> one. Eviscerate self and loved ones with a rusty spoon before even
>> contemplating reading this...
>
>
> Damn.. now you've got me interested in it. "what could be so bad?"
>I keep asking myself..
I do hope this isn't a hint that I should type out some of the
highlights? Really, you do not want to discover quite how bad this is.
> The same portion of my brain is working
>right now that has me thinking I should rent and see "Titanic" (but
>which thankfully has been overpowered by the 'reasonable' part of my
>brain)..
Hold that thought.
>
> Now if I could just find a good rusty spoon and a nice high cliff..
>hm......
>
:-)
>
>>
>> It would appear that I perhaps ought to seek out "The Dragon and the
>> George" in order to ensure that I don't make the same mistake
>again. :-)
>
> You should.. it's not a bad little book.. it stops short in a few
>places.. and could have been a few extra chapters long .. it's one of
>those books that makes you ask the question: "why are ALL the people
>who end up getting shipped to alternate worlds and find themselves in
>the body of a Dragon ALWAYS teachers of medieval literature and well
>studied in heraldry"
Ooh! I know the answer to that one. It is the same answer as that to
the question, "why are ALL Heinlein heroes well-educated, highly-
intelligent polymaths?" - because the authors believe that this is what
people should be like. Just try and find a mediaevalist who doesn't
secretly believe that everyone else should share his or her interest in
the subject. They're wrong, of course - everyone should be a military
historian. :-)
David Given
Joe Slater <joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
[...]
> Yes; this is stated explicitly. The children kill a bear in _Prince
> Caspian_ but are at first worried that it was a Talking Bear. Note
> that Talking Beasts can lose the power of speech if they behave badly;
> I suppose this means that rash decisions may make you rasher.
Hey! Wash your mouse out with soap!
One of Lewis' themes is that you don't have to believe in Christian
mythology to be Christian. If you're a good person (whatever that means)
Jesus/Aslan will welcome you with open arms. _The Horse and His Boy_, for
example.
Since the Calormene were descended from Earth-humans who made it across in
some kind of wormhole (_Prince Caspian_), they're the right species; so
all you need to do is to find a suitably good Calormene, and you've met
all the requirements.
Of course, the chances of a Talking animal or a semihuman making out of
Narnia alive, through Arkenland, across the Great Desert, into Calormene
and finding said people without getting killed or put into a zoo are
probably remote. Especially as Aslan was intending to bring in the
children anyway. Nothing like predestination for upsetting plots.
--
+- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "...I am highly complimented, Friend
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | Murchison, but you have too few legs." ---
| Play: dgi...@iname.com | James White, _Hospital Ship_
+- http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~dg -+
Joe Slater
>One of Lewis' themes is that you don't have to believe in Christian
>mythology to be Christian. If you're a good person (whatever that means)
>Jesus/Aslan will welcome you with open arms. _The Horse and His Boy_, for
>example.
>
>Since the Calormene were descended from Earth-humans who made it across in
>some kind of wormhole (_Prince Caspian_), they're the right species; so
>all you need to do is to find a suitably good Calormene, and you've met
>all the requirements.
We don't know exactly when the Calormen entered Narnia. If it was
after the reign of the White Witch they wouldn't have been around when
necessary. I seem to recall that Lewis actually drew up a timeline,
but I hold such external evidence in little regard; in matters of this
sort I prefer to restrict myself to the sacred texts.
jds
--
Our Captain who art in Starfleet, James T Kirk be thy name.
Thine orders come, thy will be done, in the engine room as on the bridge.
Give us this day our replicator rations and send us not on the away team,
but beam us up. Over and out.
Jo Walton
joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au "Joe Slater" writes:
> d...@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote:
> >One of Lewis' themes is that you don't have to believe in Christian
> >mythology to be Christian. If you're a good person (whatever that means)
> >Jesus/Aslan will welcome you with open arms. _The Horse and His Boy_, for
> >example.
> >
> >Since the Calormene were descended from Earth-humans who made it across in
> >some kind of wormhole (_Prince Caspian_), they're the right species; so
> >all you need to do is to find a suitably good Calormene, and you've met
> >all the requirements.
>
> We don't know exactly when the Calormen entered Narnia. If it was
> after the reign of the White Witch they wouldn't have been around when
> necessary. I seem to recall that Lewis actually drew up a timeline,
> but I hold such external evidence in little regard; in matters of this
> sort I prefer to restrict myself to the sacred texts.
We don't know, but we know they had been there for long enough to have
ancient tombs at the edge of the desert by the time of _The Horse and
His Boy_ which is during the adulthood of the Four Children. Also
there is a reference in tH&hB to Narnia from the Calormene POV being
a remote northern place, until recently under the control of an
evil sorceress and eternal winter. So I think they must have been there
at that point, from internal textevd.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk Take the rasfw pledge
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now! From Tor Books and good bookshops everywhere.
More info, Tir Tanagiri Map & Poetry etc at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Joe Slater
>[W]e know they [the Calormen] had been there for long enough to have
>ancient tombs at the edge of the desert by the time of _The Horse and
>His Boy_ which is during the adulthood of the Four Children. Also
>there is a reference in tH&hB to Narnia from the Calormene POV being
>a remote northern place, until recently under the control of an
>evil sorceress and eternal winter. So I think they must have been there
>at that point, from internal textevd.
Good call, although I can't recall if the tombs were necessarily those
of the Calormen. They might have belonged to a vanished race. This
means that the question stands; why couldn't some Calormen have sat in
Cair Paravel? I suppose the prophecy must have meant that anyone not
human would be an usurper, not that anyone who *is* human is *not* an
usurper.
Now, from what period did the Telmarines come?
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
<holds nose> Bad Pun Alert! </holds nose> I wonder how many other
Americans will understand that pun?
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--
John F. Eldredge -- eldr...@poboxes.com
PGP key available from:
http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson
lan...@my-deja.com
> in order to solve the problem, you needed a Son of Adam and a
Daughter of
> Eve. i.e., a human. There weren't any humans in Narnia, so they
needed to
> import some.
>
> What I don't understand is why they didn't import some from Arkenland
or
> Calormene. Presumably the White Witch had fairly stringent border
> controls.
>
> --
> +- David Given ---------------McQ-+ "I have a mind like a steel trap.
Yeah.. Now THAT's a good point.. I THINK that Archenland wasn't
colonized untill AFTER the kids from London got them all sorted.. no..
no that dosn't make any sense.. cause in the Magicians Nephew King-
what's-'is-name's kids went of to inhabit that supposedly..
Maybe it's because CS Lewis was an Englishman of the early part of the
20th century and was inherantly suspicious of forigners.. so there's no
way that a Calormene could come and sort out Narnia because, in his
view, Narnia just didn't need a chip shop or tandoori takeaway..
nope.. I think that's me reading way too much into it. And possibly
I'm being very unfair to CS Lewis... not to mention England - Sorry
everybody.. no offense ment.. living in London has made me a skeptic.
Oh well.. still a great set of books.
Cheers
lan...@my-deja.com
> >the Arkenlanders, someone who remembers the books better will have to
> >give that a try.
>
> I think the Archenlanders were only half-human - the children of Frank
> and Helen married dryads and river-gods, didn't they?
ahh.. that's it! you've got it.. I knew there was some sort of
reason. I think you're right.. I'll have to go review the Magician's
Nephew
lana
lan...@my-deja.com
> Since the Calormene were descended from Earth-humans who made it
across in
> some kind of wormhole (_Prince Caspian_), they're the right species;
so
> all you need to do is to find a suitably good Calormene, and you've
met
> all the requirements.
hm.. it's been a while.. but I think that the folks from beyond the
Western Mountains were the Telemarines or something.. and THESE were
the wormhole from an island guys.
I don't think he explains the Calormenes
>
> Of course, the chances of a Talking animal or a semihuman making out
of
> Narnia alive, through Arkenland, across the Great Desert, into
Calormene
> and finding said people without getting killed or put into a zoo are
> probably remote. Especially as Aslan was intending to bring in the
> children anyway. Nothing like predestination for upsetting plots.
yeah.. now didn't he write the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe first..
and then go back and write the rest? predestination .. yeah..
that'll wreck a plot.. case in point: StarWars I... and 4-6 .. but I
digress
Lana
Jo'Asia
> In article <n1l449...@127.0.0.1>,
> d...@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) wrote:
>> In article <94199l$bmh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>> lan...@my-deja.com writes:
>> [...]
>>> Damn.. I was hoping nobody would ask that. I started asking that
>>> question when I first read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.. I
>>> mean please.. these guys can't solve their own witch problems so they
>>> have to get 4 kids from London to sort them out...
>> Not *quite* as unreasonable as all that; it was well known in Narnia that
>> in order to solve the problem, you needed a Son of Adam and a Daughter of
>> Eve. i.e., a human. There weren't any humans in Narnia, so they needed to
>> import some.
> And the reason humans are so special is that Adam, Eve, and Jesus were
> human. See also _Perelandra_.
That's the reason for 'special humans' given in _Perelandra_. The reason for it
in Narnia was that it was a human who brought Evil in Narnia's very beginning.
Jo'Asia
--
http://framzeta.art.pl Joanna Slupek http://rassun.art.pl
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm from SF and I'm okay, I read all night and write all day (Robson)
To write me replace 'rasun' with 'rassun' in my e-mail
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
<lan...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9490uo$8j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Morning..
> Yeah.. Now THAT's a good point.. I THINK that Archenland wasn't
> colonized untill AFTER the kids from London got them all sorted.. no..
> no that dosn't make any sense.. cause in the Magicians Nephew King-
> what's-'is-name's kids went of to inhabit that supposedly..
>
> Maybe it's because CS Lewis was an Englishman of the early part of the
> 20th century and was inherantly suspicious of forigners.. so there's no
> way that a Calormene could come and sort out Narnia because, in his
> view, Narnia just didn't need a chip shop or tandoori takeaway..
>
> nope.. I think that's me reading way too much into it. And possibly
> I'm being very unfair to CS Lewis... not to mention England - Sorry
> everybody.. no offense ment.. living in London has made me a skeptic.
>
> Oh well.. still a great set of books.
No, I think it's fair to point out that the "swarthy" nationalities don't
come out very well in Lewis's books, or for that matter in Tolkien.
Admittedly they were products of their time, but that doesn't mean we can't
point out a bit of bias.
Anyway, here's a timeline, can't speak for its accuracy
http://www.factmonster.com/spot/narnia-history.html
The Calormenes are supposed to be renegade Archenlanders. Didn't take them
long to change quite a bit, then.
and someone's version of same set against the corresponding our-world time
http://virtualnarnia.tripod.com/timeline.html
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Jo Walton
joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au "Joe Slater" writes:
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
> >[W]e know they [the Calormen] had been there for long enough to have
> >ancient tombs at the edge of the desert by the time of _The Horse and
> >His Boy_ which is during the adulthood of the Four Children. Also
> >there is a reference in tH&hB to Narnia from the Calormene POV being
> >a remote northern place, until recently under the control of an
> >evil sorceress and eternal winter. So I think they must have been there
> >at that point, from internal textevd.
>
> Good call, although I can't recall if the tombs were necessarily those
> of the Calormen. They might have belonged to a vanished race.
True. But the Tisroc (may he live forever) was an old man with a grown
son at the time when Susan was old enough to be considering getting
married, so he must have been there and alive earlier. Also I think
Rabadash's numeral was mentioned towards the end of the bit talking
about his later life and it was something like Rabadash the 32nd, the
Ridiculous? So I think it's a reasonable assumption without having to
rely on the perception that it doesn't look like a culture that's only been
there five minutes.
This
> means that the question stands; why couldn't some Calormen have sat in
> Cair Paravel? I suppose the prophecy must have meant that anyone not
> human would be an usurper, not that anyone who *is* human is *not* an
> usurper.
That sounds like a fudge to me. Maybe there weren't enough good Calormenes
who weren't too busy?
Thinking about this, wouldn't the story of how four good Calormene
siblings ended up crossing the desert and defeating the witch make
a _great_ story! Not that I don't like _The Lion, the Witch and the
Wardrobe_, but I want that one as well.
> Now, from what period did the Telmarines come?
C.17 Caribbean pirates, I assumed. Hang on though, they can't be, the
world only started in 1902. They must have been very anachronistic
pirates. Hang it all the book's upstairs and I can't check exactly
what it says about them. Maybe they were just a ship of people in the
Pacific in the early years of the C.20.
There's another story - the discovery of this island they went back to,
full of bad guys at a very odd tech level with strange superstitions...
in the Pacific during WWII.
Sensible question: is there any way of sorting out the rate at which
time passes in Narnia compared to our world?
Lois Tilton
> <holds nose> Bad Pun Alert! </holds nose> I wonder how many other
> Americans will understand that pun?
I don't believe "rasher" is an exclusively British usage.
--
LT
www.darkspawn.com
DARKSPAWN: the vampire fantasy
Jo Walton
In article <TQW96.7905$s4....@news.indigo.ie>
eime...@eircom.net "Eimear Ni Mhealoid" writes:
> No, I think it's fair to point out that the "swarthy" nationalities don't
> come out very well in Lewis's books, or for that matter in Tolkien.
> Admittedly they were products of their time, but that doesn't mean we can't
> point out a bit of bias.
I don't think that's true actually. The Calormene Empire isn't a very nice
place, and it's Arabian Night's, but there are people from it who are
really good -- Aravis, and Emeth aren't considered to be inherently inferior
in a racist way. Aravis is 100% Calormene and marries Shasta and that isn't
even blinked at.
(I don't think it's true for Tolkien either, though that's another argument.)
> The Calormenes are supposed to be renegade Archenlanders. Didn't take them
> long to change quite a bit, then.
How the heck did they do that? Lamarkian evolution? Lamarkian _cultural_
evolution? No, they must have come from Persia. Tash must have brought
them, probably in 632.
New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
there before, reachable through other pools in the wood. Tash and
Aslan were Mazda and Ahriman (only the other way around) back in
Persia, and they brought their people through together to Calorman.
The people were naturally confused by the wood, (or worldmaking if
necessary) and got the good/evil polarities of the deities reversed.
Fortunately this didn't matter because it isn't the name that counts.
The Calormenes then had 1400 years of history to change from their
original Persian ancestors before Narnia and Archenland were created
on their far borders.
And of course, while they were fully human they weren't eligible for
the thrones at Cair Paravel because they were never sons of Adam and
daughters of Eve, they came from a different mythological creation
entirely.
Why didn't I see that before! It isn't a genetic qualification as much
as a religious one. It's a bit like _Dune_ really.
(OK, with tongue somewhat in cheek.)
aRJay
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
you from an earlier message).
<<Thinking about this, wouldn't the story of how four good Calormene
siblings ended up crossing the desert and defeating the witch make
a _great_ story! Not that I don't like _The Lion, the Witch and the
Wardrobe_, but I want that one as well. >>
When you aren't to busy with other work of course.
--
How does a rocket/jet engine work?
"It's not that hard.
Stuff goes in, stuff happens, stuff goes out faster than it came in."
- Ian Stirling
aRJay
Mark Atwood
>
> New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
> there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
There's texev that you can read The Garden of Eden in Genesis the same
way. Just *who* were the "daughters of men" that the "sons of Adam"
were marrying?
--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Jo Walton
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
> >
> > New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
> > there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
>
> There's texev that you can read The Garden of Eden in Genesis the same
> way. Just *who* were the "daughters of men" that the "sons of Adam"
> were marrying?
Can you think of any fantasy that uses the idea that different gods
created different bits of the world at different times?
I can't think of anything I want to do with this idea just at the
moment, but it has potential.
Jo Walton
aR...@escore.demon.co.uk "aRJay" writes:
> >Why didn't I see that before! It isn't a genetic qualification as much
> >as a religious one. It's a bit like _Dune_ really.
> >
> >(OK, with tongue somewhat in cheek.)
> >
> All very good but it doesn't get you out of writing this one (I quote
> you from an earlier message).
>
> <<Thinking about this, wouldn't the story of how four good Calormene
> siblings ended up crossing the desert and defeating the witch make
> a _great_ story! Not that I don't like _The Lion, the Witch and the
> Wardrobe_, but I want that one as well. >>
>
> When you aren't to busy with other work of course.
Remind me in 2053, when they will be out of copyright and fanfic will
be allowed.
It would be nothing like as interesting with the serial numbers filed
off.
Mark Atwood
> >
> > There's texev that you can read The Garden of Eden in Genesis the same
> > way. Just *who* were the "daughters of men" that the "sons of Adam"
> > were marrying?
>
> Can you think of any fantasy that uses the idea that different gods
> created different bits of the world at different times?
PTerry's _Lost Contenent_, of course...
Nancy Lebovitz
Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>In article <943po8$gk1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lan...@my-deja.com writes
>
>the question, "why are ALL Heinlein heroes well-educated, highly-
>intelligent polymaths?" - because the authors believe that this is what
They aren't. Few of them are really stupid (though I don't think Alex
from _Job_ seems especially bright), but Lorenzo (_Double Star_) is
an actor and nothing more when he starts, and I don't think he does
much more than pick up some basics about government later. Whatshisname
from _Time for the Stars_ is a very passive fellow--and why not?--
he's on the spaceship to be a human radio.
The protagonist from _The Door Into Summer_ is a brilliant inventor,
but has neither interest nor apparent talent for anything else.
>people should be like. Just try and find a mediaevalist who doesn't
>secretly believe that everyone else should share his or her interest in
>the subject. They're wrong, of course - everyone should be a military
>historian. :-)
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Joe Slater
>New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
>there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
Not plausible, I'm afraid. The stars were made at the same time as
Narnia. In fact, so was Narnia's sun.
I clutch gratefully at the "renegade Archenlander" theory - or perhaps
we can suppose that the Calormen weren't human at all? There are lots
of humaniform creatures in Narnia; does the text explicitly say that
they originally came from Earth?
aRJay
<J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <NfCRwKAk...@escore.demon.co.uk>
> aR...@escore.demon.co.uk "aRJay" writes:
>
>> >Why didn't I see that before! It isn't a genetic qualification as much
>> >as a religious one. It's a bit like _Dune_ really.
>> >
>> >(OK, with tongue somewhat in cheek.)
>> >
>> All very good but it doesn't get you out of writing this one (I quote
>> you from an earlier message).
>>
>> <<Thinking about this, wouldn't the story of how four good Calormene
>> siblings ended up crossing the desert and defeating the witch make
>> a _great_ story! Not that I don't like _The Lion, the Witch and the
>> Wardrobe_, but I want that one as well. >>
>>
>> When you aren't to busy with other work of course.
>
>Remind me in 2053, when they will be out of copyright and fanfic will
>be allowed.
>
>It would be nothing like as interesting with the serial numbers filed
>off.
>
True.
Jo Walton
joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au "Joe Slater" writes:
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
> >New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
> >there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
>
> Not plausible, I'm afraid. The stars were made at the same time as
> Narnia. In fact, so was Narnia's sun.
Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
be very dark at night, but not the sun.
> I clutch gratefully at the "renegade Archenlander" theory - or perhaps
> we can suppose that the Calormen weren't human at all? There are lots
> of humaniform creatures in Narnia; does the text explicitly say that
> they originally came from Earth?
Mrs. Beaver's suggestion that the White Witch is part djinn and part
giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis. However,
might not some of the children of Frank and Helen have married not just
dryads but Harfang-type giants and djinni, and might the descendants of
humans and djinni have become the Calormenes?
That's a canonical mention that djinni exist in Narnia, that's good enough
for me.
Lois Tilton
> Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
> what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
> be very dark at night, but not the sun.
Seems to me that what we have here is severe resistance to the obvious
conclusion that Lewis just didn't Think Things Through.
Jo Walton
lti...@shell-3.enteract.com "Lois Tilton" writes:
> Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
> > what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
> > be very dark at night, but not the sun.
>
> Seems to me that what we have here is severe resistance to the obvious
> conclusion that Lewis just didn't Think Things Through.
Oh, that's obvious. But it's not very interesting, now is it?
Michael Hargreave Mawson
<na...@unix3.netaxs.com> writes
>In article <rdTbjeCM...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,
>Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>>In article <943po8$gk1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lan...@my-deja.com writes
>>
>>Ooh! I know the answer to that one. It is the same answer as that to
>>the question, "why are ALL Heinlein heroes well-educated, highly-
>>intelligent polymaths?" - because the authors believe that this is what
>
>They aren't.
Now, do I try to weasel out of this by saying that not all heroes of
Heinlein novels are Heinlein heroes, or do I just hold my hands up to a
gross over-simplification?
I think the latter is probably more convincing. :-)
Brenda
Jo Walton wrote:
> In article <94cguk$bkf$3...@bob.news.rcn.net>
> lti...@shell-3.enteract.com "Lois Tilton" writes:
>
> > Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
> > > what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
> > > be very dark at night, but not the sun.
> >
> > Seems to me that what we have here is severe resistance to the obvious
> > conclusion that Lewis just didn't Think Things Through.
>
> Oh, that's obvious. But it's not very interesting, now is it?
Lewis himself knew it was so, and suggested that few Talking Animal works could
bear up under close scrutiny. His example was WIND IN THE WILLOWS. What was
Ratty living -on-? All those luscious picnic baskets, laden with chicken
sandwiches, ham, etc. -- where were the chickens who were giving their lives
for these cold cuts, and did they talk? And there is the famous bit where
Graham himself put a foot wrong, and had Mr. Toad brushing the dry leaves out
of his hair...
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Joe Slater
>> Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
>> what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
>> be very dark at night, but not the sun.
Lois Tilton <lti...@shell-3.enteract.com> wrote:
>Seems to me that what we have here is severe resistance to the obvious
>conclusion that Lewis just didn't Think Things Through.
La la la la, la la la. Lois is talking but I'm not listening la la la
la la.
jds
--
"All my humor is self-referential," replied Tom swiftly.
Joe Slater
beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they would
bring fauns back too!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1126000/1126928.stm
Jo Walton
joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au "Joe Slater" writes:
> In a related matter, I note that there are plans to reintroduce
> beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they would
> bring fauns back too!
Fauns aren't native to England, they're native to _Greece_.
All in Plato. What _do_ they teach them in these schools?
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1126000/1126928.stm
I'm pleased about this as well. Beavers are wonderful.
There are otters in the River Towy.
Brenda
Joe Slater wrote:
> In a related matter, I note that there are plans to reintroduce
> beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they would
> bring fauns back too!
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1126000/1126928.stm
>
I note that beavers are vegetarians. Poor Lewis, caught wrong again.
Although it would have been a thin meal for the four children, if they
arrived at the Beavers' lodge and sat down to a fine repast of tree bark
au jus.
Michael S. Schiffer
>In article <mgti6tsg1hvrtvl2n...@4ax.com>
> joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au "Joe Slater" writes:
>> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>> >New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
>> >there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
>> Not plausible, I'm afraid. The stars were made at the same time as
>> Narnia. In fact, so was Narnia's sun.
>Blast. Stars, I could have coped with, ("Even in your world that's not
>what they are, it's it just what they're made of") and maybe it used to
>be very dark at night, but not the sun.
How about this: there are one or more gateways between worlds that go
through an intermediate place for which our world's time is to it as
Narnia's is to us. So the Calormenes started as a Persian or Indian
army (and which went through the wrong mountain valley, spent a night
encamped by a river (during which night Earth went from somewhere in
the latter half of first millennium through, say, 1910), then emerged
on the other side of the valley into Narnia's world. (And who knows
where they'd have wound up if they hadn't stopped for the night?)
Tash took this as an opportunity and proceeded to intimidate and bribe
them into worshipping him. Under Tash's tutelage, they hunted or
drove out the Talking Beasts who lived there, fought some wars with
Archenland that determined the desert as the border, and proceeded to
have their history. Few Talking Beasts would have dared to try to get
Calormenes to fight the Witch, and those that did wound up supper (or
at best enslaved) for their troubles. (Though the Archenlanders must
have been something other than pure descendants of Adam and Eve to a
man, since otherwise it's hard to believe that they'd have ignored the
Witch but had such good relations with Narnia as of THaHB.)
The Telmarines came through the same gateway, or a similar one on an
island somewhere. (Must have been different, or they'd probably
have seen the Calormenes ahead of them.) They probably just walked
straight through, spending only hours in the intermediate world, or
they'd have missed Narnia's history completely and wound up somewhere
else. (Or nowhere, I suppose). As it was, they got there only a few
hundred years from its end.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS If reading in an archive, please do
ms...@mediaone.net not click on words highlighted as links
msch...@condor.depaul.edu by Deja or other archives. They violate
the author's copyright and his wishes.
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>In article <rdTbjeCM...@hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk>,
>Michael Hargreave Mawson <O...@46thFoot.com> wrote:
>>In article <943po8$gk1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lan...@my-deja.com writes
>>
>>Ooh! I know the answer to that one. It is the same answer as that to
>>the question, "why are ALL Heinlein heroes well-educated, highly-
>>intelligent polymaths?" - because the authors believe that this is what
>
>They aren't. Few of them are really stupid (though I don't think Alex
>from _Job_ seems especially bright), but Lorenzo (_Double Star_) is
>an actor and nothing more when he starts, and I don't think he does
>much more than pick up some basics about government later. Whatshisname
>from _Time for the Stars_ is a very passive fellow--and why not?--
>he's on the spaceship to be a human radio.
He must have picked up more then just "some basics about government" for
him to have had the long and distinguished career that he had.
>The protagonist from _The Door Into Summer_ is a brilliant inventor,
>but has neither interest nor apparent talent for anything else.
Still a typical Heinlein arrogant bastard...
Martin Wisse
--
Kings and lords come and go and leave nothing but
statues in a desert, while a couple of young men
tinkering in a worshop change the way the world works.
-Terry Prachett, _The Truth_
lan...@my-deja.com
that the White Witch is part djinn and part
> giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis.
Right.. Mrs. beaver did say that.. but when the kids are bombing
around Jadis' home planet .. it's made very clear that the people there
(including Jadis) are VERY TALL... like REALLY TALL.. and that they
are all sorcerers.. so.. it's very possible that their species was
related to giants as well as the Jinn (which I had no idea what it was
when I first read the books.. I looked it up and I guess a Jinn is a
Genie)
>However,
> might not some of the children of Frank and Helen have married not
just
> dryads but Harfang-type giants and djinni, and might the descendants
of
> humans and djinni have become the Calormenes?
human children marrying harfang-type giants? ouch. I wouldn't
wanna ....hm.. anyways..
I think that the Carolmenes came from earth.. and very possibly did
so in the same fashion as the Telemarines did.. worm hole/fancy door
in a cave.. something like that.... ONLY..they did it some time after
the Frank/Helen dynasty and before the white which..(the white wich
went West I thought.. or was that north? hm..) they built up a
thriving culture and only the isolation of the dessert kept them from
having they're culture polluted by the talking animal-lion-following-
trees-can-talk-and-so-can-the-rivers folks to the north.
Let's face it.. the Carolmenes couldn't have been decendants of the
archenlanders.. Frank and Helen were caucasion..the archenlanders are
REALLY caucasion and unless Helen had been sleeping witht the Postman..
well.. I don't think you can breed that much blue eyes/blond hair out
of people.. not in the time frame we're looking at .
Somebody brought forth the idea that it was TASH that might have
brought the CArolmenes there.. but .. it seems to me that TASH isn't
the "hey guys! let's all go to a different planet and have some fun"
kind of guy.. you know?
just my 2cents ( or pence as the case may be)
Cheers..
lan...@my-deja.com
Lois Tilton <lti...@shell-3.enteract.com> wrote:
> Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Seems to me that what we have here is severe resistance to the obvious
> conclusion that Lewis just didn't Think Things Through.
>
Right um..
boring...
It's much more fun to ignore the Acham's Razor approach ..and assume
that there's a lot of sense in it if we were just sharp enough to
figure it out..
lana
lan...@my-deja.com
> > In a related matter, I note that there are plans to reintroduce
> > beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they
would
> > bring fauns back too!
>
> Fauns aren't native to England, they're native to _Greece_.
>
> All in Plato. What _do_ they teach them in these schools?
>
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1126000/1126928.stm
>
> I'm pleased about this as well. Beavers are wonderful.
>
> There are otters in the River Towy.
Wow! the only thing in the rivers in my part of england are Shopping
Trollys.. But there are a lot of them.. Great article.. I think
it's funny.. my sister-in-law's family would probably pay the British
government to take the beavers off of their land in Alberta (canada)
and wish them the best of luck.
I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
Fawns are greek.... damn.. how about dryads!
Lana
lan...@my-deja.com
Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> I note that beavers are vegetarians. Poor Lewis, caught wrong again.
> Although it would have been a thin meal for the four children, if they
> arrived at the Beavers' lodge and sat down to a fine repast of tree
bark
> au jus.
>
> Brenda
ahh.. well.. normal, everyday, dumb beavers are vegetarians.. but
Talking Beavers! well.. everybody knows that they like a good roast as
much as the next animal! (talking animal).
I think there was really no conflict with eating meat and yet having
talking animals. The animals that COULD talk were special and were in
the same class of beings as humans. The ones that Couldn't
talk..well..they were animals..
Nobody would have ever DREAMED of riding a talking horse.. and
Puddleglum felt absolutly sick when he found out he was snacking on
Talking Stag..
Captain Button
[ snip ]
> Wow! the only thing in the rivers in my part of england are Shopping
> Trollys.. But there are a lot of them.. Great article.. I think
> it's funny.. my sister-in-law's family would probably pay the British
> government to take the beavers off of their land in Alberta (canada)
> and wish them the best of luck.
> I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
ObSF: _Reaper Man_ by Terry Pratchett
"Remember. Wild, Uncontrolled Bursts!"
--
"You may have trouble getting permission to aero or lithobrake
asteroids on Earth." - James Nicoll
Captain Button - [ but...@io.com ]
Jo Walton
> Fawns are greek.... damn.. how about dryads!
I believe they began in Greece but have spread, there are certainly
dryads in England now.
I'm not sure, actually, are dryads found everywhere there are trees,
or only in temperate regions?
Jo Walton
ms...@mediaone.net "Michael S. Schiffer" writes:
> How about this: there are one or more gateways between worlds that go
> through an intermediate place for which our world's time is to it as
> Narnia's is to us. So the Calormenes started as a Persian or Indian
> army (and which went through the wrong mountain valley, spent a night
> encamped by a river (during which night Earth went from somewhere in
> the latter half of first millennium through, say, 1910), then emerged
> on the other side of the valley into Narnia's world. (And who knows
> where they'd have wound up if they hadn't stopped for the night?)
>
> Tash took this as an opportunity and proceeded to intimidate and bribe
> them into worshipping him. Under Tash's tutelage, they hunted or
> drove out the Talking Beasts who lived there, fought some wars with
> Archenland that determined the desert as the border, and proceeded to
> have their history. Few Talking Beasts would have dared to try to get
> Calormenes to fight the Witch, and those that did wound up supper (or
> at best enslaved) for their troubles.
This all works. This is lovely. Well done.
I think they're most plausibly pre-Islamic Persians, who then carried
on developing their society in the new world without interference. A bit
like what Kerr's Deverry does (really well) with the Celts.
(Though the Archenlanders must
> have been something other than pure descendants of Adam and Eve to a
> man, since otherwise it's hard to believe that they'd have ignored the
> Witch but had such good relations with Narnia as of THaHB.)
It's easy to imagine very bad weather making that pass impassable. But
I think you're right anyway. They must not have been and known they
weren't.
> The Telmarines came through the same gateway, or a similar one on an
> island somewhere. (Must have been different, or they'd probably
> have seen the Calormenes ahead of them.) They probably just walked
> straight through, spending only hours in the intermediate world, or
> they'd have missed Narnia's history completely and wound up somewhere
> else. (Or nowhere, I suppose). As it was, they got there only a few
> hundred years from its end.
Good enough for me.
I don't think he can have thought through what would have happened
to them back on an uninhabited island in the C.20 though.
Carol Hague
>
> I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
Somerset. I used to work in a factory that made them.
ObSF: - _Reaper Man_ by Terry Pratchett gives an alternative explanation
of where shopping trolleys come from...
>
> Fawns are greek.... damn.. how about dryads!
The weather we've had lately they'd be wetads...
<pedant>*Fauns* are Greek. *Fawns* are baby deer.</pedant>
Carol Hague
--
"There is no problem that cannot be solved by chocolate." - Buffy, BtVS
GSV Three Minds in a Can
deja.com asserted
<snip>
> I think
>it's funny.. my sister-in-law's family would probably pay the British
>government to take the beavers off of their land in Alberta (canada)
>and wish them the best of luck.
Too late, the Scandinavians made us a better offer. 8>.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Carol Hague
> In article <980005...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,> Mrs. Beaver's suggestion
> that the White Witch is part djinn and part
> > giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis.
>
> Right.. Mrs. beaver did say that.. but when the kids are bombing
> around Jadis' home planet .. it's made very clear that the people there
> (including Jadis)
<snippage>
Going off at a bit of a tangent here, I was interested to find that
"jadis" is French for "formerly" "long ago" or "once" - presumably
deliberate on Lewis' part, perhaps to suggest either great age or that
she's about to become a thing of the past ?
Adam Benedict Canning
Jo Walton wrote:
>
> In article <m3d7djx...@flash.localdomain> m...@pobox.com "Mark Atwood" writes:
>
> > J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
> > >
> > > New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
> > > there before, reachable through other pools in the wood.
> >
> > There's texev that you can read The Garden of Eden in Genesis the same
> > way. Just *who* were the "daughters of men" that the "sons of Adam"
> > were marrying?
>
> Can you think of any fantasy that uses the idea that different gods
> created different bits of the world at different times?
>
> I can't think of anything I want to do with this idea just at the
> moment, but it has potential.
Morcock's Young Kingdoms. The story about the Paladin of Law, who
created more countries.
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Jo Walton wrote:
>
> In article <94getp$onb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> lan...@my-deja.com writes:
>
> > Fawns are greek.... damn.. how about dryads!
>
> I believe they began in Greece but have spread, there are certainly
> dryads in England now.
>
> I'm not sure, actually, are dryads found everywhere there are trees,
> or only in temperate regions?
Gloranthan ones, anywhere there are large groups of Trees. Though only
onne type of elf requires them for reproductive purposes [Brown/Annual
IIRC, but it might be Green/Evergreen ones, Yellow/Jungle ones can't
interbreed with Dryads.].
Adam
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:979914...@bluejo.demon.co.uk...
> SPOILERS FOR _THE HORSE AND HIS BOY_.
>
> In article <TQW96.7905$s4....@news.indigo.ie>
> eime...@eircom.net "Eimear Ni Mhealoid" writes:
>
> > No, I think it's fair to point out that the "swarthy" nationalities
> > don't come out very well in Lewis's books, or for that matter in
> > Tolkien.
> > Admittedly they were products of their time, but that doesn't mean we
> > can't point out a bit of bias.
>
> I don't think that's true actually. The Calormene Empire isn't a very nice
> place, and it's Arabian Night's, but there are people from it who are
> really good -- Aravis, and Emeth aren't considered to be inherently
> inferior in a racist way. Aravis is 100% Calormene and marries Shasta
> and that isn't even blinked at.
Hmmm. I'll have another think about this. I have to say it was more the
general impression I had, that the proportion of good people to corrupt
people was way smaller in Calormen. More for the re-read pile, anyway.
> How the heck did they do that? Lamarkian evolution? Lamarkian _cultural_
> evolution? No, they must have come from Persia. Tash must have brought
> them, probably in 632.
>
> New theory. Aslan made Narnia in 1902, but the rest of the world was
> there before, reachable through other pools in the wood. Tash and
> Aslan were Mazda and Ahriman (only the other way around) back in
> Persia, and they brought their people through together to Calorman.
> The people were naturally confused by the wood, (or worldmaking if
> necessary) and got the good/evil polarities of the deities reversed.
> Fortunately this didn't matter because it isn't the name that counts.
> The Calormenes then had 1400 years of history to change from their
> original Persian ancestors before Narnia and Archenland were created
> on their far borders.
>
> And of course, while they were fully human they weren't eligible for
> the thrones at Cair Paravel because they were never sons of Adam and
> daughters of Eve, they came from a different mythological creation
> entirely.
>
> Why didn't I see that before! It isn't a genetic qualification as much
> as a religious one. It's a bit like _Dune_ really.
>
> (OK, with tongue somewhat in cheek.)
I like this a lot; Narnian alternate history.
The timeline reminded me how short an existence it had, and how powerful an
effect the events of _The Last Battle_ . I always had trouble re-reading
the first chapter, it upset me too much.
_Prince Caspian_ is still my favourite, I think.
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Ninni Pettersson
> Wild-eyed conspiracy theorists insist that on Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:02:51
> GMT, lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > Wow! the only thing in the rivers in my part of england are Shopping
> > Trollys.. But there are a lot of them.. Great article.. I think
> > it's funny.. my sister-in-law's family would probably pay the British
> > government to take the beavers off of their land in Alberta (canada)
> > and wish them the best of luck.
>
> > I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
>
> ObSF: _Reaper Man_ by Terry Pratchett
>
> "Remember. Wild, Uncontrolled Bursts!"
"Topiary!"
/Ninni Pettersson
--
Ninni Pettersson - Stockholm - Sweden
Mail-adress is vidumavi at swipnet dot se
Ninni Pettersson
And Canadian beavers are the wrong sort anyway, _castor canadensis_
instead of proper _castor fiber_.
Ninni Pettersson
> In article <94foa...@news1.newsguy.com>
> ms...@mediaone.net "Michael S. Schiffer" writes:
<snip>
> (Though the Archenlanders must
> > have been something other than pure descendants of Adam and Eve to a
> > man, since otherwise it's hard to believe that they'd have ignored the
> > Witch but had such good relations with Narnia as of THaHB.)
>
> It's easy to imagine very bad weather making that pass impassable. But
> I think you're right anyway. They must not have been and known they
> weren't.
<snip>
I don't think they could have been, because, if I remember
correctly, the children of King Frank and Queen Helen married dryads and
fauns and watergods. So they were only descendant from Adam and Eve in
part, and I think you had to be a 100 percent descendant to count
against the Witch.
Joe Slater
>Going off at a bit of a tangent here, I was interested to find that
>"jadis" is French for "formerly" "long ago" or "once" - presumably
>deliberate on Lewis' part, perhaps to suggest either great age or that
>she's about to become a thing of the past ?
Lewis wasn't especially good at names; witness "Maleldil" which was
supposed to sound regal ("Mal" from the first syllable of the Hebrew
word for king) but instead sounds malevolent.
It's not unlikely, though, that he related it to the English word
"jaded", meaning "having become bored with pleasures" or "jade"
meaning "a worn-out horse", also used by extension to mean an old
prostitute.
Or - here's a wacky suggestion - the first two letters are meant to
connote the name of the Jewish deity (not *as* the Jewish deity, just
as deity in general) while the last three refer to the demonic city in
Dante's Inferno. So we have "god of a cursed city". Pretty good, eh?
Nancy Lebovitz
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>SPOILERS FOR _THE HORSE AND HIS BOY_.
>
>In article <TQW96.7905$s4....@news.indigo.ie>
> eime...@eircom.net "Eimear Ni Mhealoid" writes:
>
>> No, I think it's fair to point out that the "swarthy" nationalities don't
>> come out very well in Lewis's books, or for that matter in Tolkien.
>> Admittedly they were products of their time, but that doesn't mean we can't
>> point out a bit of bias.
>
>I don't think that's true actually. The Calormene Empire isn't a very nice
>place, and it's Arabian Night's, but there are people from it who are
>really good -- Aravis, and Emeth aren't considered to be inherently inferior
>in a racist way. Aravis is 100% Calormene and marries Shasta and that isn't
>even blinked at.
>
can't manage to create a really respectworthy homelike culture and/or
there's something off about putting raisins and almonds in your rice.
This isn't about individuals (some of which are quite good, as you
say) and it's not exactly about genes.
It may be a matter of the view of Calormene being relentlessly
British/Narnian so that even the neutral features are made exotic
and are somewhat poisoned by the bad politics and religion of the place.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Richard Horton
<joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>
>Or - here's a wacky suggestion - the first two letters are meant to
>connote the name of the Jewish deity (not *as* the Jewish deity, just
>as deity in general) while the last three refer to the demonic city in
>Dante's Inferno. So we have "god of a cursed city". Pretty good, eh?
>
>jds
C'mon, Joe, it's obvious. Lewis was pre-immortalizing a certain
Usenet poster initialed -- jds!
<G>
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Joe Slater
>C'mon, Joe, it's obvious. Lewis was pre-immortalizing a certain
>Usenet poster initialed -- jds!
>
><G>
OK, that's it, I'm calling out the minions now.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:54:12 +0100, see_sig...@email.xx (Ninni
Pettersson) wrote:
>Captain Button <but...@eris.io.com> wrote:
>
>> Wild-eyed conspiracy theorists insist that on Mon, 22 Jan 2001
>> 05:02:51 GMT, lan...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> [ snip ]
>>
>> > Wow! the only thing in the rivers in my part of england are
>> > Shopping Trollys.. But there are a lot of them.. Great
>> > article.. I think it's funny.. my sister-in-law's family would
>> > probably pay the British government to take the beavers off of
>> > their land in Alberta (canada) and wish them the best of luck.
>>
>> > I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
>>
>> ObSF: _Reaper Man_ by Terry Pratchett
>>
>> "Remember. Wild, Uncontrolled Bursts!"
>
> "Topiary!"
We demand a shrubbery!
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--
John F. Eldredge -- eldr...@poboxes.com
PGP key available from:
http://home.earthlink.net/~eldredge/
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson
Phil Fraering
> Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >C'mon, Joe, it's obvious. Lewis was pre-immortalizing a certain
> >Usenet poster initialed -- jds!
> >
> ><G>
>
> OK, that's it, I'm calling out the minions now.
See? Proof!
--
Phil Fraering
p...@globalreach.net
Debian Sid PowerPC Crash Test Dummy
mstemper - psc . com
>In a related matter, I note that there are plans to reintroduce
>beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they would
>bring fauns back too!
"Reintroduce"? Did they go locally extinct or something? What's the
background on this?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
It's Ensign Schrodinger! He's half-dead, Jim!
mstemper - psc . com
>Mrs. Beaver's suggestion that the White Witch is part djinn and part
>giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis.
Do we know that? I've always assumed it, but I don't recall any
corroborating statements from the books.
Brenda
Michael Stemper wrote:
> In article <980005...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
>
> >Mrs. Beaver's suggestion that the White Witch is part djinn and part
> >giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis.
>
> Do we know that? I've always assumed it, but I don't recall any
> corroborating statements from the books.
>
I do. In MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW it is mentioned that there was giantish blood in the house of
Charn. I will also mention that King Frank's second son became king of Archenland. And,
remember that anyone with pretensions to respectability in Calormen claimed descent from
one Tisroc or another, who is always descended in a right line from the god Tash. You
could argue therefore that everybody in Calormen is not of full human stock.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough, author of DOORS OF DEATH AND LIFE
From Tor Books in May 2000
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Eveleen McAuley
<mstemper @ siemens - psc . com (Michael Stemper)> wrote
> (Jo Walton) writes:
>
> >Mrs. Beaver's suggestion that the White Witch is part djinn and part
> >giant must of course be dismissed, because we know she is Jadis.
>
> Do we know that? I've always assumed it, but I don't recall any
> corroborating statements from the books.
>
the Witch and the Wardrobe", which I assume means that Lewis called her
Jadis long before he thought up Charn. When the children arrive at Mr.
Tumnus' house, they find it ransacked, with a proclamation in the name of
Her Imperial Majesty Jadis, Queen of Narnia, signed by Maugrim, Captain of
the Secret Police.
A question which I've asked before - why was Maugrim's name changed in the
American edition? Were there any other noticeable changes in the American
editions of the Narnia books?
Eveleen McAuley
Eveleen McAuley
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote
> >
> On the other hand, I was left with an impression that dark people just
> can't manage to create a really respectworthy homelike culture and/or
> there's something off about putting raisins and almonds in your rice.
>
chicken-livers and raisins, the mulberry fools and sherbets sounded
wonderful. There seems to me to be a lot of wishful thinking about food in
the Narnia books, but since they were written during and just after a period
of serious food rationing, I suppose it's understandable.
> This isn't about individuals (some of which are quite good, as you
> say) and it's not exactly about genes.
>
> It may be a matter of the view of Calormene being relentlessly
> British/Narnian so that even the neutral features are made exotic
> and are somewhat poisoned by the bad politics and religion of the place.
>
Lewis seems to genuinely approve of the Calormene tradition of
story-telling. Bree and Hwin are very impressed when Aravis tells her story
in the grand Calormene manner, and the author himself says "In Calormen,
story-telling is a thing you're taught, just as English boys and girls are
taught essay-writing. The difference is that people want to hear the
stories, whereas I never heard of anyone who wanted to read the essays."
Eveleen McAuley
Joe Slater
>A question which I've asked before - why was Maugrim's name changed in the
>American edition?
This is one of the Seven Great Mysteries.
>Were there any other noticeable changes in the American
>editions of the Narnia books?
Here's a pointer to the C S Lewis FAQ on the subject:
http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/cslfaq.htm#324
Briefly, Maugrim is renamed Fenris Ulf; the prophecy is written on the
World Ash rather than the Fire Stones of the Secret Hill; and
Puddleglum does not turn out to be a time-traveller seeking to protect
Rillian's unborn child from a cyborg.
Brenda
Eveleen McAuley wrote:
> I thought the snipe stuffed with almonds and truffles, the rice with
> chicken-livers and raisins, the mulberry fools and sherbets sounded
> wonderful. There seems to me to be a lot of wishful thinking about food in
> the Narnia books, but since they were written during and just after a period
> of serious food rationing, I suppose it's understandable.
I have noticed that much British fiction focuses on food to an enormous extent.
Look at THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, with all those weighty picnic baskets, or
Winnie the Pooh, or the E. Nesbit books, all written before the wars but with
the major motivating plot element being hunger -- the children are always
missing their lunch, or being marooned without their dinner, or moaning, "I want
my tea!." Or possibly it is not a British thing, but a -past- thing -- I am
reading books set in the past, when food was more expensive and difficult to
procure and prepare, and hunger was more widely experienced than now in the era
of the Snack Food.
Brenda
>
>
> > This isn't about individuals (some of which are quite good, as you
> > say) and it's not exactly about genes.
> >
> > It may be a matter of the view of Calormene being relentlessly
> > British/Narnian so that even the neutral features are made exotic
> > and are somewhat poisoned by the bad politics and religion of the place.
> >
> Lewis seems to genuinely approve of the Calormene tradition of
> story-telling. Bree and Hwin are very impressed when Aravis tells her story
> in the grand Calormene manner, and the author himself says "In Calormen,
> story-telling is a thing you're taught, just as English boys and girls are
> taught essay-writing. The difference is that people want to hear the
> stories, whereas I never heard of anyone who wanted to read the essays."
>
> Eveleen McAuley
--
Lois Tilton
> A question which I've asked before - why was Maugrim's name changed in the
> American edition? Were there any other noticeable changes in the American
> editions of the Narnia books?
It was? What was it changed to?
--
LT
www.darkspawn.com
DARKSPAWN: the vampire fantasy
Joe Slater
>I have noticed that much British fiction focuses on food to an enormous extent.
>Look at THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, with all those weighty picnic baskets, or
>Winnie the Pooh, or the E. Nesbit books, all written before the wars but with
>the major motivating plot element being hunger -- the children are always
>missing their lunch, or being marooned without their dinner, or moaning, "I want
>my tea!."
Perhaps one cause of it was the British educational system, wherein
most boys and many girls of the upper- and upper-middle classes were
sent to boarding school. It appears that some (many? all?) of these
places made economies by starving the students; Kipling describes
them roasting sparrows over gaslights. Even when most children were
sent to day-schools, their parents would have associated hunger with
childhood.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
mstemper@siemens.? asserted
>In article <ll1k6t44cli5jrohb...@4ax.com>, Joe Slater <joeDELETETH
>I...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> writes:
>>In a related matter, I note that there are plans to reintroduce
>>beavers to England. I find this deeply satisfying; if only they would
>>bring fauns back too!
>
>"Reintroduce"? Did they go locally extinct or something? What's the
>background on this?
They were hunted to extinction several hundred years ago.
--
Eveleen McAuley
Lois Tilton <lti...@shell-2.enteract.com> wrote
> > why was Maugrim's name changed in the
> > American edition?
>
Fenris Ulf.
Eveleen McAuley
Lois Tilton
>> > why was Maugrim's name changed in the
>> > American edition?
>>
>> It was? What was it changed to?
> Fenris Ulf.
Oh, dear. I had hoped that was a cruel satire.
Eveleen McAuley
Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote
> Eveleen McAuley wrote:
>
> > I thought the snipe stuffed with almonds and truffles, the rice with
> > chicken-livers and raisins, the mulberry fools and sherbets sounded
> > wonderful. There seems to me to be a lot of wishful thinking about food
> > in the Narnia books, but since they were written during and just after
> >a period
> > of serious food rationing, I suppose it's understandable.
>
> I have noticed that much British fiction focuses on food to an enormous
> extent. Look at THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, with all those weighty picnic
> baskets, or Winnie the Pooh, or the E. Nesbit books, all written before
the
> wars but with the major motivating plot element being hunger -- the
> children are always missing their lunch, or being marooned without their
> dinner, or moaning, "I want my tea!." Or possibly it is not a British
thing, but
> a -past- thing -- I am reading books set in the past, when food was more
> expensive and difficult to procure and prepare, and hunger was more
> widely experienced than now in the era of the Snack Food.
>
might be left to badly-trained servants or produced by very uncooperative
landladies. In E. Nesbit's "The Story of the Treasure Seekers" the rich
visiting uncle is provided with an atrocious dinner where the basic
ingredients were probably fine. Dora's description is
"The Brussels sprouts were all wet and slimy, and the potatoes looked grey -
and there were bits of black in the gravy - and the mutton was bluey-red and
soft in the middle. The apple pie looked very nice - but it wasn't quite
done in the apply part. The other thing that was burnt - you must have
smelt it - was the soup."
I wonder how much all of Lewis' description of food in the Narnia books was
a reaction to that kind of diet at boarding school.
Eveleen McAuley
Eveleen McAuley
Joe Slater <joeDEL...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote
> Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> >I have noticed that much British fiction focuses on food to an enormous
> > extent.
> >-- the children are always
> >missing their lunch, or being marooned without their dinner, or moaning,
> > "I want my tea!."
>
> Perhaps one cause of it was the British educational system, wherein
> most boys and many girls of the upper- and upper-middle classes were
> sent to boarding school. It appears that some (many? all?) of these
> places made economies by starving the students; Kipling describes
> them roasting sparrows over gaslights. Even when most children were
> sent to day-schools, their parents would have associated hunger with
> childhood.
>
is set in the fairly recent past, the food is still terrible.
Eveleen McAuley
M.E.Tonkin
Eveleen McAuley wrote:
>
> In the boarding school in Diana Wynne Jones' "The Time of the Ghost", which
> is set in the fairly recent past, the food is still terrible.
>
>
Of course, in the most famous modern fictional British boarding school,
Hogwarts, the food is magically delicious.
MET
Brenda
Eveleen McAuley wrote:
> Brenda <clo...@erols.com> wrote
> >
> > I have noticed that much British fiction focuses on food to an enormous
> > extent. Look at THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, with all those weighty picnic
> > baskets, or Winnie the Pooh, or the E. Nesbit books, all written before
> the
> > wars but with the major motivating plot element being hunger -- the
> > children are always missing their lunch, or being marooned without their
> > dinner, or moaning, "I want my tea!." Or possibly it is not a British
> thing, but
> > a -past- thing -- I am reading books set in the past, when food was more
> > expensive and difficult to procure and prepare, and hunger was more
> > widely experienced than now in the era of the Snack Food.
> >
> Some of the problem seemed to be that in middle-class families, the cooking
> might be left to badly-trained servants or produced by very uncooperative
> landladies. In E. Nesbit's "The Story of the Treasure Seekers" the rich
> visiting uncle is provided with an atrocious dinner where the basic
> ingredients were probably fine. Dora's description is
> "The Brussels sprouts were all wet and slimy, and the potatoes looked grey -
> and there were bits of black in the gravy - and the mutton was bluey-red and
> soft in the middle. The apple pie looked very nice - but it wasn't quite
> done in the apply part. The other thing that was burnt - you must have
> smelt it - was the soup."
And of course British cuisine is famously lousy, certainly in that period. I
also remember the complaints of the War Office, when they were calling up
British men for the first World War, that so many of them were totally unfit for
service. More than half of them, as I recall. Poor nutrition surely had its
role in that.
Brenda
Ethan A Merritt
Yeah, that's what it says in the text. But the menu descriptions
don't sound very appetizing to this American.
Along the same lines, the fascination
with sweets and sweet shops in HP seems very mysterious and foreign.
I assume it's an English thing? or maybe just an English boarding
school fiction thing?
Ethan A Merritt
Brenda
Ethan A Merritt wrote:
I also find it ominous that vegetables are rarely mentioned. Taken in conjunction
with the English obsession with bowel function and elimination, in works directed
at mature readers, it draws a distressing picture of British nutrition and
digestion.
John Andrew Fairhurst
says...
> I have to say it was more the
> general impression I had, that the proportion of good people to corrupt
> people was way smaller in Calormen.
>
Well, Shasta and Aravis were running away with a TASH awful expensive
warhorse so we don't really get a look at what the bog standard Calorman
is like. Even Bree's master is not seen as a *particularly* evil in his
society's milieu.
The really bad people were the Grand Vizier and the Tisroc (May He Live
For Ever) but putting their evil as low as corruption is painting them
quite leniently (can you tell this had a bad effect on me when I first
read it? :-)).
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
All the Masterworks Books - both SF & Fantasy!
John Andrew Fairhurst
> because, in his
> view, Narnia just didn't need a chip shop or tandoori takeaway
>
Well, there were chippies back in Lewis's day as well and they would have
been largely run by British people as they still are outside the
conurbations.
As a little factlet, I believe there are actually more curry takeaways
than chip shops these day
Joe Slater
>In the boarding school in Diana Wynne Jones' "The Time of the Ghost", which
>is set in the fairly recent past, the food is still terrible.
That book is apparently based pretty closely on Ms Jones' own
childhood, so it's not *that* recent.
lan...@my-deja.com
ca...@wrhpv.com wrote:
<snip>
> > I wonder If Shopping Trollys are native to anywhere..
>
> Somerset. I used to work in a factory that made them.
>
> ObSF: - _Reaper Man_ by Terry Pratchett gives an alternative
explanation
> of where shopping trolleys come from...
Wow! ok.. (lana runs down to the book shop to buy the shopping trolley
book) Does Terry Pratchett mention Sommerset??.. I'll have to go
there one weekend. Maybe I'll take a score or so of homesick London
trolleys with me (if I can fish them out of the canal)
> > Fawns are greek.... damn.. how about dryads!
> The weather we've had lately they'd be wetads...
<holds nose><ignores pun> hm.. as long as dryads can swim.. it's
been a bit damp in the southern bits with the floods.. bringing the
question.. Do Dryads and Nyads have um.. compatible body parts ?
</holds nose></ignores pun>
cheers
Lana
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