_Jack the Bodiless_ SPOILERS!!!!
1. I speculate that Fury is in part FELICE!!!
2. Felice was tortured into operancy by Culleket. During that torture, she
was able to hide deep within a tiny portion of her mind. Her mind was
temporarily imprisoned to protect herself from losing her identity to the
insanity of torture. So now she likely knows how to do the same to other
minds as had been done to her.
3. She did in fact subsume Culleket, or at least tapped his mind energy and
molded it to her own use, so she can do it.
3a. She might be a bitter lady too because she didn't have a loving,
nurturing childhood, and Amerie had turned her down her love for her religion,
so she may be hardened enough to be Fury.
4. She was trapped with Culleket in the prison-without-doors, but who's
to say that she wasn't able to use the same escape techniques that
she employed during her torture. Or at least be able to figure out how to
escape ON HER OWN after all those years, mind you she was rather talented.
4a. To digress about her talent, she was IMHO the MOST powerful mind to
be born in the story, greater than that of Marc and Aiken [though we will leave
Jack out of this, as he may be another lifeform other than human, a primitive
Mental Man if you will].
4b. Felice was able to d-jump at a very young 20 yrs old, without ANY
foreknowledge of how to do it, nor that it even EXISTED!
4c. One could even speculate that Felice could have achieved Mental Man [Woman]
state after all those years in the prison-without-doors.
5. Felice has the motive for revenge against MArc Remillard, as during the
battle against Aiken Drum she was tricked. Remember, she ALMOST got her
revenge then and there with that d-jump!!! Therefore, if she was Fury, she'd
want to take out her revenge against the whole family [as Fury quoth, 'I wannt
you all'.]
6. Perhaps being in her prison she is unable to exist in the world and
needs the help of Hydra who DOES exist here, and thuis Felice as Fury has not
materialized to take an active part.
7. Perhaps, having attained Mental Man, she is allowing Marc to go through all
the motions to allow history to take place, then as soon as we reach the
point where the 2-way gate is opened, Felice as Fury will strike back at Marc!
8. Perhaps Aiken will come back through the 2-way gate and wreak havoc as
well, though I'm not sure how he'd align. Marc DID save Aiken by allowing
him to use the cerebrogenic enhancer, but he has not achieved the same mental
state that Felice [as Fury] and Marc [as Unifex] has, though with Nodonn and
Mercy stuffed in his brain, I would'nt call him ineffective!
Perhaps I am rambling, perhaps there's a little to much speculation here.
I don't recall the shapes and colors of the Felice/Cull entity in the prison,
so I can't compare it to Carnbunkle, etc.
Maybe Carnbunkle is Jain(m) Farstrider....oh, wrong story. oooops!
Adam, if you have anything to add, please do so!!!
These opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, this psoting site,
nor any other agency than myself, other standard disclaimers apply.
THE FIST
: 1. I speculate that Fury is in part FELICE!!!
: 3. She did in fact subsume Culleket, or at least tapped his mind energy and
: molded it to her own use, so she can do it.
No, Felice didn't subsume Culleket. They rather formed a Duality. It is
stated somewhere that this is rather different.
: 4. She was trapped with Culleket in the prison-without-doors, but who's
No. Reread where Elizabeth places the Duality within the
room-without-doors. It can leave, whenever it wants to. No-one else can
enter, either physically or mentally.
: 5. Felice has the motive for revenge against MArc Remillard, as during the
: battle against Aiken Drum she was tricked. Remember, she ALMOST got her
: revenge then and there with that d-jump!!! Therefore, if she was Fury, she'd
: want to take out her revenge against the whole family [as Fury quoth, 'I wannt
: you all'.]
Fury only turns on Jack and Marc after its efforts were thwarted. Before
then, the MacGregor clan was `The Great Enemy'.
: Perhaps I am rambling, perhaps there's a little to much speculation here.
: I don't recall the shapes and colors of the Felice/Cull entity in the prison,
The Duality is described as a ruby cylinder.
: so I can't compare it to Carnbunkle, etc.
The Carbuckle is a red-gemstone sphere (as a bob on a keychain).
Aaron 'Wigs' Wigley 'It won't hurt him, will it?' Rogi asked after a
wi...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au while?. 'The liquor?' Teresa shook her head,
Maintainer of the Julian smiling, 'It's well watered down, and he's old
May discussion list enough to handle a little bit, arn't you baby?'
The fetus said: It alters my consciousness.
Curious! I'll study the matter.
No, AU would not commit suicide. Some speculate that he "dies"
by immersing himself in the many-in-All; some of us prefer to define the
fourth stage of awareness thusly. Meta-spoiler: This is what happens at
the end of one of the Gray Lensman series, the books by E.E. Smith that
are the prototype for May's Pliocene and Milieu stories.
>
>I'll bet Diamond Mask knew who Fury was, though.
D'accord... so? You think she passed it on to AU before she dies
fighting Marc?
>
>Unifex is *not* Marc; the caterpillar is not the butterfly. I think
Agreed, furthermore we have no evidence that AU is composed of a
single entity. He shows himself to Rogi as he "used to be" -- but even if
Rogi saw several people, he'd tend to recognize Marc first and foremost.
As well he should.
However, I think Elizabeth++ (for lack of a better term), is still
alive and well in Duat.
>the 2113 date of Marc's death is the date he and Elizabeth departed
>for Duat, or, rather, the date when the Mileu learned that he had
>so departed.
>
>Remember, 2113 is the year in which the reverse timegate opened,
>and the whole reason for writing these things is to give Cloud
>and Hagen insight into what the family history is *really* like.
>
WRONG! It was 2112, two years after Group Green (which was August
2110). This is why little Paul and Lucynda-Anne weren't born until 2113,
maybe even after the Dartmouth Winter Carnival in January. I think Hagen
et al made the exodus in fall 2112.
>(Catch the middle name of Cloud and Kuhal's kid? )
Paul <Marc-Ange>? I'm more interested in his *last* name. What
would it be? Paul Marc-Ange ulCloud-vurKuhal? Paul Marc-Ange Earthshaker?
Or just Remillard for the sheer inertia/prestige (not) of it?
>
>Graydon
-Bill
Er, I had it on good authority (a quote from some interview, possibly
in the /Pliocene Companion/) that May said herself that her goal was to
"write E.E. Smith stories, for a more modern audience". You may chalk this
up to self-deprecation, but Marina Drobnic pointed out a very interesting
parallel between Marc Remillard and Marc Duquesne (and their "friends,
associates, and enemies" as May puts in /JtB).
>>>I'll bet Diamond Mask knew who Fury was, though.
>> D'accord... so? You think she passed it on to AU before she dies
>>fighting Marc?
>
>No. She could, however, have passed it on somehow, or Rogi could
>figure it out knowing what he knows plus the public record stuff.
>
Well, in that case, at least *we'll* find out. :-) There's lots
of 3rd-person narrarative in /Intervention/ and /JtB/ that probably
even Unifex doesn't see (e.g. Fred's foray to the ice sled races and the
little run in with the Sons/Daughters of Earth).
It might indeed take until /Magnificat/, though.
>>>Unifex is *not* Marc; the caterpillar is not the butterfly. I think
>> Agreed, furthermore we have no evidence that AU is composed of a
>>single entity. He shows himself to Rogi as he "used to be" -- but even if
>>Rogi saw several people, he'd tend to recognize Marc first and foremost.
>> However, I think Elizabeth++ (for lack of a better term), is still
>>alive and well in Duat.
>
>Well, then why is Unifex grieving about her on Denalli?
Grieving? Not necessarily. "...part reverie and part prayer..."
may simply mean that he knows *he's* not going back to Duat, i.e. that
they've said their last goodbye (and that his redemption is now in his
own hands). ``It is Marc that you mourn for...'' (pun intended)
[cf. "Priez pour nous pecheurs, maintenant et dans l'heure de n^otre
mort." -- AU in /Intervention/]
>Unifex is Marc grown up into a Mental Man; that's what the self
>repair gene is for, to give you long enough to let you metafaculties
>develop to the point where you can make the switch.
Hm. I'm beginning to think that all GM class humans and Duatians
have the potential. Hagen and Cloud were presumably going to be boosted
into disincarnation ("super-operancy" as Cloud put it) using some mechanical
algetic device (there's a vague flashback in /Adversary/ about "after Daddy
takes their bodies away"), the
cerebroenergetic equivalent of the "torture test" used by Elizabeth on
Brede (sort of an in-place d-jump) and the real torture administered by
Cull to Felice. I'm sure that in time, Elizabeth overcame her qualms
or ethical/religious hesitation regarding the "uplift". Note that Marc
says he couldn't administer enough pain to Creyn to lift him -- even
though the latter is 635 years old versus Brede's 14000+. I think it's
due to the degree of latency. Anyway, uplifting to operancy is a lesser
step than uplifting to Lylmikhood (i.e. the third stage of consciousness,
which is a stronger criterion for being Lylmik than any racial definition).
If you doubt that Elizabeth at least lived to become Lylmik even
if she no longer lives in 2113, go back to /JtB/ and look at the phrase
"... a person who had <ONCE BEEN A WOMAN>..." *Stare* at it. Then come
back and give me your interpretation.
>
>>>the 2113 date of Marc's death is the date he and Elizabeth departed
>>>for Duat, or, rather, the date when the Mileu learned that he had
>>>so departed.
>>>Remember, 2113 is the year in which the reverse timegate opened,
>>>and the whole reason for writing these things is to give Cloud
>>>and Hagen insight into what the family history is *really* like.
>>
>> WRONG! It was 2112, two years after Group Green (which was August
>>2110). This is why little Paul and Lucynda-Anne weren't born until 2113,
>>maybe even after the Dartmouth Winter Carnival in January. I think Hagen
>>et al made the exodus in fall 2112.
>
>Whups! you're right. Maybe that's when Marc was declared dead?
>(I can *easily* see the beauracratic wrangling taking a year... :)
I'll agree that Rogi's memoirs are for Cloud, Hagen, Kuhal, and
the Children of Rebellion's edification, but the third-person narrarative
can't be given in its entirety by AU. He has no reason to -- Rogi might
not like to relive the story of the Intervention and MR (which is why
AU has to goad him into putting it in writing even though Rogi has "toyed
with the idea"), but AU could just present the entire story to his
confederates (the Supervisors) in a nanosecond.
That's what I love about May's stories. You get the "best seat
in the house". Enough things happen offstage for you to exercise your
imagination, but nothing important gets glossed over -- even things missed
by the principals.
>
>>>(Catch the middle name of Cloud and Kuhal's kid? )
>> Paul <Marc-Ange>? I'm more interested in his *last* name. What
>>would it be? Paul Marc-Ange ulCloud-vurKuhal? Paul Marc-Ange Earthshaker?
>>Or just Remillard for the sheer inertia/prestige (not) of it?
>
>Almost certainly Remillard. I hope I hope I hope we get the scene
>where Lucille mets Kuhal for the first time.
>
Hm, I think I'll write it if May never does. It's too classic to
let go... I can see it right now -- Kuhal bowing to the "great matriarch"
(think about his Host complex, shared by all his 200+ sibs), barely
masking his incredible apprehension. You know, Lucille might have been
Furious (at least Denis was), but even if she weren't, she's the equivalent of
any Tanu stalwart
in creativity -- especially pyrocreativity. Plus being the Adversary's
grandma and the mother of the human analogue of Thagdal, etc. etc. :-)
(I don't think the height would get to her. At her age she wouldn't
be fazed.)
What I wanna see is what Madame Guderian says to Marc when he and
his band show up at the auberge du portail! It must have been historic.
Purely as entertainment, it beats Indiana Jones getting Hitler's autograph.
I sure hope May doesn't cop out on this one. It ought to be captured on
the auberge's Tri-D and put in history flecks!
>Graydon
-Bill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I crawl through an abyss | "Take up the hearts you came to heal
I struggle and resist | Put down your dagger and your shield
Somehow I break free | You need hide nothing now from me.."
Someone becomes me |
And when I stand upright | -Rosanne Cash, "The Wheel"
I'm filled with a new light | /The Wheel/
I'm given one more chance |--------------------------------------
So I change partners |
In this new dance..." | bh...@cs.uiuc.edu The once and
| William Henry Hsu future bum
-Rosanne Cash, "Change Partners" |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It has always been my understanding that Unifex was grieving for
Cyndia, his first wife, on Denalli.
--
[ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ]
[----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ]
[ r...@netcom.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ]
I beg to differ (*please*, PLEASE let me differ!)... Cyndia Muldowney
never "mothered Unity in countless *nonhuman* minds in a far distant
galaxy" and she died a woman as far as we can tell. Also, as far as we
can tell, she only loved Marc -- she did not "twice love deeply" as the
woman in Unifex's reverie did (we believe that's Lawrence and Marc).
Go back and check the /JtB/ Prologue -- I am giving the above from
memory as I am *still* missing my copy of /JtB/ but I think it's pretty
accurate.
Oh, and also AU says to Rogi that he felt compelled to avoid Denali
"during her first-cycle [earlier?] sojourn here", meaning that he stayed away
while Elizabeth was growing up and attending/working in the Metapsychic
Institute as a human. It also suggests she lived to Lylmikhood or at least
was able to come back. The "tragedy" (I think, or was it "accident"?) was the
rho-crash that killed Lawrence -- bringing her to Earth (albeit *Pliocene*
Earth), "where the two of them had so improbably [fortuitously?] met". On
first reading I had no knowledge of Pliocene so I thought this was Diamond.
In fact I thought the "two of them" were Di and Jack. Well, at least we know
of ONE historic event that Unifex had nothing to do with -- i.e. the tornado
crash.
BTW, pretty good memorecall for only two readings, eh?
-Bill
My guess is that the 2113 date is when AU reveals to the galaxy that he
is/was actually MR. Maybe he submits to Milieu justice and gets executed.
Or something. As I said, I'm guessing.
>Remember, 2113 is the year in which the reverse timegate opened,
>and the whole reason for writing these things is to give Cloud
>and Hagen insight into what the family history is *really* like.
Wrong on the date. From the Del Rey edition of The Adversary (green cover)
page 423. They are testing the gate and the sodium being tested will be
sent to 2 November 2111 (NOT 2113). Therefore, the date everybody goes
back to the future is 4 November 2111.
>(Catch the middle name of Cloud and Kuhal's kid? )
Marc-Ange. Hm. I don't get the Ange part...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things | velm...@fubar.ocean.
I cannot change, the courage to change the things | washington.edu
I can and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those | velm...@aol.com
people I had to kill because they pissed me off. |
--------------------------------------------------| aka Jack Brown
What do lawyers and sperm have in common? |----------------------
They both have a one in a million chance of becoming a human.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong again. It was 2111. Group Green went back August (?) 2110 and were
there a little over one year. P 423 of The Adversary where they are testing
the gate sends to 2111.
--tamra
Interesting thought. But is there another step? AU is pretty powerful
already... and going onto the next step of evolution can hardly be called
death.
Another point: why do a lot of people think that Diamond Mask will
figure who Fury is? If I remember right (this is a long time ago) didn't
Rogi note that Illusio only put an end to Hydra, with no mention of the
ultimate fate of Fury?
Al
"I suppose it would work. If Fury wasn't eyeballing."
"He'll be back near the finish line with the rest of the big crowd if
he's at the race at all. Just farseeing the lower end of the track
like all the top heads."
----------------------------------------
This makes me think it's either Paul (who doesn't come to the race
after all) or Denis. Comments?
. ,
.:/
Rosemary Dean Mackintosh . ,,///;, ,;/
rose...@clam.rutgers.edu . o:::::::;;///
"Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul!" >::::::::;;\\\
''\\\\\'" ';\
';\