What colour is Gandalf's skin?
David Cowie
text evidence for this?
He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 61847:44
Dorothy J Heydt
David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>text evidence for this?
>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
There are plenty of Europeans with dark eyes. The telling point
about Gandalf is that he looks like a Man. Middle-earth is
essentially Europe, where the Europeans come from. All the Men
there, until you get way down south, look like Europeans, and
when you get as far south as Harad the Haradrim look more like
Arabs than Africans.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Steve Coltrin
David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> writes:
> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> text evidence for this?
> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
Lots of us honkies have dark eyes.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
Dorothy J Heydt
Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>begin fnord
>David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>> text evidence for this?
>> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
>Lots of us honkies have dark eyes.
I think that's what I said.
ravenlynne
> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> text evidence for this?
> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
I always did too.
--
Currently reading: To Try Men's Souls by Newt Gingrich and William
Forstchen
ravenlynne
> begin fnord
> David Cowie<m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>> text evidence for this?
>> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
> Lots of us honkies have dark eyes.
>
<passes out>
Norm D. Plumber
>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>text evidence for this?
>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
I think he was old-colored.
--
plan [n]: a list of the reasons you aren't done yet
Steve Coltrin
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> In article <m2d3phs...@kelutral.omcl.org>,
> Steve Coltrin <spco...@omcl.org> wrote:
>>
>>Lots of us honkies have dark eyes.
>
> I think that's what I said.
I think so too.
Suzanne Blom
> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> text evidence for this?
> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
answer because it may have to do with his function than his color. But
if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
David Cowie
> In article <8lv86...@mid.individual.net>, David Cowie
> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>>text evidence for this?
>>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
> There are plenty of Europeans with dark eyes. The telling point about
> Gandalf is that he looks like a Man. Middle-earth is essentially
> Europe, where the Europeans come from. All the Men there, until you get
> way down south, look like Europeans, and when you get as far south as
> Harad the Haradrim look more like Arabs than Africans.
Thanks for confirming my unquestioning assumption!
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 61851:42
Mike Schilling
"Suzanne Blom" <bo...@sueblom.net> wrote in message
news:ide6c5$8ae$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
And two of the Istari are blue. At any rate, we know that Gandalf dressed
in gray and Saruman in white.
Wayne Throop
:: definite answer because it may have to do with his function than his
:: color. But if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
Until he was bleached white by exposure to a balrog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf
initially known as Gandalf the Grey,
but after returning from death as Gandalf the White
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Dorothy J Heydt
Here's how he appears in The Lord of the Rings Online.
http://lotro.mmodb.com/bestiary/radagast-the-brown-546.php
Remember, Radagast and the other Istari are Maiar. They are, not
to put too fine a point on it, angels, embodied and sent to
Middle-earth for a specific purpose, and made to look like Men.
Men in Middle-earth look like Europeans.
Dorothy J Heydt
David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 04 Dec 2010 16:50:38 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> In article <8lv86...@mid.individual.net>, David Cowie
>> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>>>text evidence for this?
>>>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>>
>> There are plenty of Europeans with dark eyes. The telling point about
>> Gandalf is that he looks like a Man. Middle-earth is essentially
>> Europe, where the Europeans come from. All the Men there, until you get
>> way down south, look like Europeans, and when you get as far south as
>> Harad the Haradrim look more like Arabs than Africans.
>
>Thanks for confirming my unquestioning assumption!
You're welcome. Remember, the reason Tolkien start writing his
stories in the first place (right after World War I) was to
create a mythology for England, for his country, to replace the
old mythology that had been lost long ago. So the people
(including Hobbits) of Middle-earth are really, basically,
entirely Europeans. The Hobbits in particular are close copies
of English countrymen in the Midlands around the turn of the last
century, with whom Tolkien served in the war.
Living in the US, a nation of immigrants, we've gotten used to a
multicultural, multiracial society, and we *expect* one. I have
a DVD of a performance of Beethoven's Ninth in the Gewandhaus in
Leipzig. Huge chorus. Full orchestra. Four soloists.
Conductor. Enormous audience, every seat filled. With the
exception of the tenor soloist (who was black), EVERY face in
that huge hall was white. It looks strange. But it's what you
should expect, because the Gewandhaus is in Europe, where the
Europeans come from.
--
Quadibloc
> I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue not a definite
> answer because it may have to do with his function than his color.
There _is_ textual evidence, though, that the color terms applied to
Radagast, Saruman, and Gandalf have to do with their clothing, rather
than their skin, however.
John Savard
Peter Huebner
As a teen I read some kind of wizardly pecking order thing into that (inverse from martial
arts belt colours), you start darkly coloured (black, brown?) and work your way up to white
(most powerful; no more scorch marks on HIS smock).
Hence Gandalf sending Radagast off as a messenger boy at one point.
But maybe that was not Tolkien's intent at all. Be hard to ask him about it now. But
doesn't Gandalf also advance to 'white' after his battle with the balrog? I seem to have a
faint recollection of that happening. In fact, that may have put the idea into my head in
the first place.
-P.
Dorothy J Heydt
Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>In article <ide6c5$8ae$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, bo...@sueblom.net says...
>>
>> On 12/4/2010 10:22 AM, David Cowie wrote:
>> > I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>> > text evidence for this?
>> > He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>> >
>> I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue not a definite
>> answer because it may have to do with his function than his color. But
>> if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
>
>As a teen I read some kind of wizardly pecking order thing into that
>(inverse from martial
>arts belt colours), you start darkly coloured (black, brown?) and work
>your way up to white
>(most powerful; no more scorch marks on HIS smock).
>Hence Gandalf sending Radagast off as a messenger boy at one point.
I wouldn't interpret it that way. "Brother, I'm in a heck of a
fix and I need to be three places at once; could you handle one
or two of them for me?" "Sure, no problem."
>But maybe that was not Tolkien's intent at all. Be hard to ask him about
>it now. But
>doesn't Gandalf also advance to 'white' after his battle with the
>balrog? I seem to have a
>faint recollection of that happening. In fact, that may have put the
>idea into my head in
>the first place.
He turns "white" because he has taken over Saruman's office as
Head of the Order. He says at one point, ~"Indeed, I *am* Saruman
now, in a way: Saruman as he ought to have been."~ (Approximate
from memory, but I can get the _ipsissima verba_ if you want
them. A question of getting up out of bed and finding the
appropriate volume in another room.)
tphile
> In article <MPG.2765823e653720f989...@news.individual.net>,
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <ide6c5$8a...@news.eternal-september.org>, bo...@sueblom.net says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
and wasn't Sarumans clothes not just white but made of every color
that blended
to white?
Shawn Wilson
> Remember, Radagast and the other Istari are Maiar. They are, not
> to put too fine a point on it, angels, embodied and sent to
> Middle-earth for a specific purpose, and made to look like Men.
> Men in Middle-earth look like Europeans.
Which is to say, their skin color is whatever they want it to be.
Robert Bannister
> :: I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue not a
> :: definite answer because it may have to do with his function than his
> :: color. But if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
>
> Until he was bleached white by exposure to a balrog.
I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was initially
grey because he worked outside the "rules". Radagast was brown because
he ignored the rules. Saruman was perfect and thus white, but was led
astray. So the whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
thing. Naturally, being wizards, they didn't need skin and probably used
parchment with runes inscribed upon it.
--
Rob Bannister
Brian M. Scott
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
<news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was
> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
> thing. [...]
I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
Brian
Brenda Clough
Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards? No, I don't
think there is a color heirarchy.
Brenda
Peter Huebner
>
>
> Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards? No, I don't
> think there is a color heirarchy.
>
> Brenda
Polar wizards?
Joel Polowin
> and wasn't Sarumans clothes not just white but made of every color
> that blended to white?
That was after Saruman's fall from wisdom.
'For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many
Colours!'
I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were
not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered
and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
'I liked white better,' I said.
'White!' he sneered. 'It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be
broken.'
'In which case it is no longer white,' said I. 'And he that breaks
a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'
Steve Coltrin
Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> writes:
Bipolar wizards - there were two of them.
Walter Bushell
Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
If polar wizards exist you will have to beware the bipolar wizards.
--
The Chinese pretend their goods are good and we pretend our money
is good, or is it the reverse?
Jim Burns
> In article<ide6c5$8ae$2...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Suzanne Blom<bo...@sueblom.net> wrote:
>> I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue
>> not a definite answer because it may have to do with his
>> function than his color. But if the contrast is color then
>> Gandalf is gray.
>
> Here's how he appears in The Lord of the Rings Online.
>
> http://lotro.mmodb.com/bestiary/radagast-the-brown-546.php
>
> Remember, Radagast and the other Istari are Maiar.
> They are, not to put too fine a point on it, angels, embodied
> and sent to Middle-earth for a specific purpose, and made to
> look like Men.
Gandalf and his brother(?) wizards seemed to take whatever
name was given them by the people they associated with.
Perhaps "the Grey", "the White", "the Brown", and so on were
only taken so that people could distinguish one from another
in spite of the flurry of names that surrounded each wizard.
Their colors were their actual names in effect, how one
knew one was referring to Gandalf/Mithrandir/Tharkun/etc/etc
-- because so-and-so was "the Grey". I suspect there was
no magical force behind these quasi-names, though.
> Men in Middle-earth look like Europeans.
Well, except when they don't.
What about Ghân-buri-Ghân?
I don't remember a specific passage, but I wouldn't be
surprised if the Evil Southerners that fought the Men
of Westernesse before the gates of Minas Tirith looked
non-European.
Jim Burns
Robert Carnegie
What about Radox the Green, and Badedas the Blue? Radox was played by
Frank Middlemass instead of Michael Hordern, but sounded much the
same. People didn't think Radox was a weird-colour wizard, they
thought he was a chef - a confusion over his ingredients for spells.
Wizards from Earthsea are pleasantly brown like almost everybody else
there, as far as I remember. Probably except for The White Lady of
Gont.
Mad Hamish
<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 12/4/2010 6:59 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
>> <news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was
>>> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
>>> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
>>> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
>>> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
>>> thing. [...]
>>
>> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
>> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
>> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
>> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
>>
>
>Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards?
power against magic and over air and water
David Johnston
Only after he went rogue.
Brenda Clough
They were not named Scott and Amundsen, so I doubt it.
Brenda
Ran Garoo
> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> text evidence for this?
> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
_Der Berggeist_ by Josef Madlener as a postcard is said to be inscribed
by Tolkien 'Origin of Gandalf'.
<http://www.tolkiensociety.org/news/gandalf-painting.html>
The largest image found through Google clearly shows a white
European.
<http://arrugaseneltiempo.blogspot.com/2010/03/gandalf-existio-y-se-llamaba-pepe.html>
<http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ELL4VDI57fg/S6qgs2nkbFI/AAAAAAAAAGo/Glz-7A6dX28/s1600/der_berggeist.jpg>
So if the bit of bio is reliable, then Gandalf likes small deer.
There's also an owl, a squirrel, and four song-birdish types in
attendance. Wonder if there could have been a correspondence in
Tolkien's imaginarium in the buildings twixt postcard and LOTR ?
Dorothy J Heydt
Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 12/4/2010 6:59 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
>> <news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was
>>> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
>>> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
>>> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
>>> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
>>> thing. [...]
>>
>> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
>> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
>> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
>> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
>
>
>think there is a color heirarchy.
We know absolutely nothing about the blue wizards, except for
their names (Alatar and Pallando) and the fact that they went far
into the east, never to be seen again.
Dorothy J Heydt
I ... don't think so. Remember that Gandalf appeared in _The
Hobbit_ long before Tolkien was into _LotR_ and Radagast and
Saruman appeared on the scene. And that for a long way he was
making it up as he went. In his introduction to his essay "On
Fairy-Stories," dating the time it was written, he said, ~"At
that time we had reached Bree, and I had no more idea than the
hobbits of what had become of Gandalf or of who Strider* was, and
I had begun to despair of ever finding out."~
*Who was originally a rather large, dangerous-looking hobbit
called Trotter.
Dorothy J Heydt
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>and wasn't Sarumans clothes not just white but made of every color
>that blended
>to white?
After he fell.
Dorothy J Heydt
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>Suzanne Blom wrote:
>> On 12/4/2010 10:22 AM, David Cowie wrote:
>> > I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>> > text evidence for this?
>> > He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>> >
>> I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue not a definite
>> answer because it may have to do with his function than his color. But
>> if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
>
>What about Radox the Green, and Badedas the Blue? Radox was played by
>Frank Middlemass instead of Michael Hordern, but sounded much the
>same. People didn't think Radox was a weird-colour wizard, they
>thought he was a chef - a confusion over his ingredients for spells.
Who????? Where are these guys from? Not from any text I've
seen.
Mike Schilling
"David Johnston" <rgo...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:e5795ae7-7581-48a3...@o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
And they were all red after he went rouge.
Quadibloc
> and wasn't Sarumans clothes not just white but made of every color
> that blended
> to white?
Not originally. That was only after he left the path of wisdom, and
broke light apart to see how it worked, like that scoundrel Newton.
John Savard
Quadibloc
> In article <c0be3744-cb92-4af3-9415-b011256b7...@r40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> >What about Radox the Green, and Badedas the Blue? Radox was played by
> >Frank Middlemass instead of Michael Hordern, but sounded much the
> >same. People didn't think Radox was a weird-colour wizard, they
> >thought he was a chef - a confusion over his ingredients for spells.
>
> Who????? Where are these guys from? Not from any text I've
> seen.
While an answer has already been supplied, noting that they are from a
satire on LotR, it may also be noted that Radox is a British brand of
effervescent powder which one uses in one's bath to make it more
refreshing (which was at one time widely available in Canada as well).
John Savard
Quadibloc
And, hardly to my surprise, Google informs me that Badedas is a
European bath gel.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Ah. I misread the post by Ran Garoo, which has nothing to do with
this. The satire was a BBC Radio Play, entitled "Hordes of the
Things":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hordes_of_the_Things_%28radio_series%29
John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
Ran Garoo <rang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 12/4/2010 08:22, David Cowie wrote:
>> I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>> text evidence for this?
>> He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>>
>
>_Der Berggeist_ by Josef Madlener as a postcard is said to be inscribed
>by Tolkien 'Origin of Gandalf'.
>
> <http://www.tolkiensociety.org/news/gandalf-painting.html>
>
>The largest image found through Google clearly shows a white
>European.
>
>
><http://arrugaseneltiempo.blogspot.com/2010/03/gandalf-existio-y-se-llamaba-pepe.html>
><http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ELL4VDI57fg/S6qgs2nkbFI/AAAAAAAAAGo/Glz-7A6dX28/s1600/der_berggeist.jpg>
>
Yes, I've seen that image before, but only small and in b&w.
Thanks for the link!
>There's also an owl, a squirrel, and four song-birdish types in
>attendance. Wonder if there could have been a correspondence in
>Tolkien's imaginarium in the buildings twixt postcard and LOTR ?
>
Hmmmm. It would be better if they were distinct enough to figure
out what kind of buildings they are. I don't think there were
any buildings in the Misty Mountains in _The Hobbit._
Dorothy J Heydt
Ah. As if someone had spoken of Goodgulf and Frito Bugger (from
the Harvard Lampoon's _Bored of the Rings_).
Robert A. Woodward
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <8m027j...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >On 5/12/10 5:38 AM, Wayne Throop wrote:
> >> :: I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue not a
> >> :: definite answer because it may have to do with his function than his
> >> :: color. But if the contrast is color then Gandalf is gray.
> >>
> >> Until he was bleached white by exposure to a balrog.
> >
> >
> >I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was initially
> >grey because he worked outside the "rules". Radagast was brown because
> >he ignored the rules. Saruman was perfect and thus white, but was led
> >astray. So the whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
> >thing. Naturally, being wizards, they didn't need skin and probably used
> >parchment with runes inscribed upon it.
>
> I ... don't think so. Remember that Gandalf appeared in _The
> Hobbit_ long before Tolkien was into _LotR_ and Radagast and
> Saruman appeared on the scene. And that for a long way he was
> making it up as he went. In his introduction to his essay "On
> Fairy-Stories," dating the time it was written, he said, ~"At
> that time we had reached Bree, and I had no more idea than the
> hobbits of what had become of Gandalf or of who Strider* was, and
> I had begun to despair of ever finding out."~
>
> *Who was originally a rather large, dangerous-looking hobbit
> called Trotter.
I have the impression that he was a Took; but I can't remember if
he ever implied that.
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
David DeLaney
So the other two used blue-and-orange morality, then?
Dave "Alatar and Pallando" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jack Bohn
>In article <idel27$ujl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards? No, I don't
>>think there is a color heirarchy.
>
>We know absolutely nothing about the blue wizards, except for
>their names (Alatar and Pallando) and the fact that they went far
>into the east, never to be seen again.
Ah! All the way to the east pole!
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
> On 12/4/2010 08:22, David Cowie wrote:
> > I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> > text evidence for this?
> > He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
> >
>
> _Der Berggeist_ by Josef Madlener as a postcard is said to be inscribed
> by Tolkien 'Origin of Gandalf'.
>
> <http://www.tolkiensociety.org/news/gandalf-painting.html>
>
> The largest image found through Google clearly shows a white
> European.
>
>
> <http://arrugaseneltiempo.blogspot.com/2010/03/gandalf-existio-y-se-llamaba-pepe.html>
>
> <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ELL4VDI57fg/S6qgs2nkbFI/AAAAAAAAAGo/Glz-7A6dX28/s1600/der_berggeist.jpg>
Of course there are also a lot of images of a white European Jesus
Christ... your picture probably doesn't look anything like the real
Gandalf, in that respect. :-)
Ran Garoo
Did you miss the point that it is not my picture but one that Tolkien
used as an origination of Gandalf ?
Also, you are assuming that your Jesus existed. :)
Tangenting to obvious mythological figures; what is the Easter Bunny's
natural (undyed) fur color?
Quadibloc
> Ah! All the way to the east pole!
That would belong in a Heterodyne Boys story, not in the LotR
continuity!
Perhaps when the world curled up, they came back from the east to go
to the True West, where the elves went, and where Frodo and Bilbo
ended up joining them.
John Savard
Wayne Throop
: That would belong in a Heterodyne Boys story,
Not Jack of Shadows?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Robert Bannister
> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
> <news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
>> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
>> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
>> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
>
> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
He was reprimanded by Saruman as part of the latter's evil ways, but I
certainly had the impression that Gandalf had been told off several
times before. Radagast, as I recall, had very little to do with the
other wizards at all, and I got the impression that Gandalf was one of
the few who had any dealings with him.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On 12/4/2010 6:59 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
>> <news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was
>>> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
>>> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
>>> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
>>> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
>>> thing. [...]
>>
>> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
>> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
>> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
>> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
>>
>
>
> Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards? No, I don't
> think there is a color heirarchy.
Blue means 'on drugs' or at least eccentric, doesn't it? - blue music,
Alice's blue caterpillar...not sure about movies, though. Aren't the
blue wizards another species or something? I don't remember much about them.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On 12/4/2010 4:24 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article<ide6c5$8ae$2...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Suzanne Blom<bo...@sueblom.net> wrote:
>
>>> I believe Radagast is known as the brown, which is a clue
>>> not a definite answer because it may have to do with his
>>> function than his color. But if the contrast is color then
>>> Gandalf is gray.
>>
>>
>> http://lotro.mmodb.com/bestiary/radagast-the-brown-546.php
>>
>> Remember, Radagast and the other Istari are Maiar.
>> They are, not to put too fine a point on it, angels, embodied
>> and sent to Middle-earth for a specific purpose, and made to
>> look like Men.
>
> Gandalf and his brother(?) wizards seemed to take whatever
> name was given them by the people they associated with.
>
> Perhaps "the Grey", "the White", "the Brown", and so on were
> only taken so that people could distinguish one from another
> in spite of the flurry of names that surrounded each wizard.
> Their colors were their actual names in effect, how one
> knew one was referring to Gandalf/Mithrandir/Tharkun/etc/etc
> -- because so-and-so was "the Grey". I suspect there was
> no magical force behind these quasi-names, though.
>
>> Men in Middle-earth look like Europeans.
>
> Well, except when they don't.
> What about Ghân-buri-Ghân?
>
> I don't remember a specific passage, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if the Evil Southerners that fought the Men
> of Westernesse before the gates of Minas Tirith looked
> non-European.
At the back of my mind, they were dark skinned, but that might just have
been because of the elephants.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On Dec 4, 6:14 pm, tphile<tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>> and wasn't Sarumans clothes not just white but made of every color
>> that blended to white?
>
>
> 'For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many
> Colours!'
>
> I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were
> not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered
> and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
>
> 'I liked white better,' I said.
>
> 'White!' he sneered. 'It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be
> dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be
> broken.'
>
> 'In which case it is no longer white,' said I. 'And he that breaks
> a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'
Which, I think, adds credibility to my point that white equals white hat
and that Saruman forfeited his hat/robe when he turned bad.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ELL4VDI57fg/S6qgs2nkbFI/AAAAAAAAAGo/Glz-7A6dX28/s1600/der_berggeist.jpg>
>
>
> So if the bit of bio is reliable, then Gandalf likes small deer.
>
> There's also an owl, a squirrel, and four song-birdish types in
> attendance. Wonder if there could have been a correspondence in
> Tolkien's imaginarium in the buildings twixt postcard and LOTR ?
Apart from the hat, it reminds me strongly of an English D. Sc. I once
saw - can't remember which university - maybe London.
--
Rob Bannister
Dorothy J Heydt
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>On 5/12/10 8:06 AM, Brenda Clough wrote:
>> On 12/4/2010 6:59 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
>>> <news:8m027j...@mid.individual.net> in
>>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> I thought it was all to do with Good and Evil. Gandalf was
>>>> initially grey because he worked outside the "rules".
>>>> Radagast was brown because he ignored the rules. Saruman
>>>> was perfect and thus white, but was led astray. So the
>>>> whole thing was a twist on the usual white hat/black hat
>>>> thing. [...]
>>>
>>> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
>>> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
>>> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
>>> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>>
>> Yes, and what then would you do about the blue wizards? No, I don't
>> think there is a color heirarchy.
>
>Blue means 'on drugs' or at least eccentric, doesn't it? - blue music,
>Alice's blue caterpillar...
Not in Tolkien's idiom. His dates, don't forget, are 1982-1973.
not sure about movies, though.
Blue movies are pornographic ones.
Aren't the
>blue wizards another species or something? I don't remember much about them.
Funny thing. Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
again. And that's all there is to remember.
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, the natural color of a wild rabbit is speckly brown.
http://www.dgsgardening.btinternet.co.uk/rabbit1.jpg
Steve Coltrin
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
> Funny thing. Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
> extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
> Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
> again. And that's all there is to remember.
And so for all we know, they accomplished exactly what they were sent
to do.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
David DeLaney
>On Dec 5, 3:48 am, Jack Bohn <jackb...@bright.net> wrote:
>> Ah! All the way to the east pole!
>
>That would belong in a Heterodyne Boys story, not in the LotR
>continuity!
It's worse than that, it's Xanth^H^H^H^H^HStile, Jim!
>Perhaps when the world curled up, they came back from the east to go
>to the True West, where the elves went, and where Frodo and Bilbo
>ended up joining them.
The wizards didn't -enter- the world until after it had been rolled up, if I
recall right? ... yes, Timeline of Arda notes the World was Changed in 3319
2Age, and the Wizards arrived around 1000 3Age, maybe eleven hundred years
later.
Dave "must have been a heck of a patch day" DeLaney
Dorothy J Heydt
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 16:37:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Dec 5, 3:48 am, Jack Bohn <jackb...@bright.net> wrote:
>>> Ah! All the way to the east pole!
>>
>>That would belong in a Heterodyne Boys story, not in the LotR
>>continuity!
>
>It's worse than that, it's Xanth^H^H^H^H^HStile, Jim!
>
>>Perhaps when the world curled up, they came back from the east to go
>>to the True West, where the elves went, and where Frodo and Bilbo
>>ended up joining them.
>
>The wizards didn't -enter- the world until after it had been rolled up, if I
>recall right? ... yes, Timeline of Arda notes the World was Changed in 3319
>2Age, and the Wizards arrived around 1000 3Age, maybe eleven hundred years
>later.
Right. I didn't have the dates at my fingertips (numbers not
being my thing), but the Istari first appeared in Middle-earth
well after the fall of Numenor.
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:LCzFs...@kithrup.com...
There must have been an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine.
Nigel
> :: Ah! All the way to the east pole!
>
> : That would belong in a Heterodyne Boys story,
>
> Not Jack of Shadows?
>
Or Pooh Bear ?
: "There's a South Pole," said Christopher Robin, "and I expect
there's an East Pole and a
: West Pole, though people don't like talking about them." Pooh was
very excited when he
: heard this, and suggested that they should have an Expotition to
discover the East Pole,
: but Christopher Robin had thought of something else to do with
Kanga; so Pooh went out
: to discover the East Pole by himself.
Cheers,
Nigel.
Dan Tilque
I believe they are described in LotR as being "swarthy".
--
Dan Tilque
Robert Carnegie
> In article <8m2rm1Fuv...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 5/12/10 8:06 AM, Brenda Clough wrote:
> >> On 12/4/2010 6:59 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 05 Dec 2010 07:46:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
Wikipedia: "A blue law is a type of law, typically found in the United
States and Canada, designed to enforce religious standards,
particularly the observance of Sunday as a day of worship or rest, and
a restriction on Sunday shopping. Most have been repealed, have been
declared unconstitutional, or are simply unenforced, although
prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally
almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas."
I would have to remind myself of a mention in one of Anne McCaffrey's
novels, where I came away with the impression that public
demonstration of affection was circumscribed, and not the purchase of
alcohol.
As for wizard colours, I think the rule, such as it is, is the leader
wears white and the others please themselves. Gandalf may be going
for grey for camouflage. Alternatively, it may be like belts in
karate, except not with black at the top. Same goes for snooker ball
colours.
Radox mentions he used to be a colour other than green, but I forget
what. It only comes up because he left an important document - an
ancient prophecy - in his other-colour robes.
Dorothy J Heydt
Tolkien did start to write a time-travel story, but AFAIK it
was never finished.
Dorothy J Heydt
Let me get the text....
"More Men going to Mordor," [Gollum] said in a low voice. "Dark
faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Smeagol has
not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black
hair, and gold rings in their ears; yes, lots of beautiful gold."
Note, long black hair, not masses of frizzy black hair.
And later, when the man of Harad falls dead at their feet:
He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward,
green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden
collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of
overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of
hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand
still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he
did not like it month. He was glad that he could not see the
dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came
from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats
had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not
really rather have stayed there in peace.
The Haradrim, as we can see, are calques (as a British
philologist would put it; an American would say
"loan-translations") of the rather vague image of Arabs in the
minds of medieval Europeans. Like Lewis's Calormenes in Narnia.
William Hyde
>
> Funny thing. Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
> extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
> Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
> again. And that's all there is to remember.
I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
or joining Sauron. I find the latter a bit difficult to beleive, as
with two wizards on his side for a long period of time I'd have
expected the war to be over long before. They doubtless looked like
easterlings.
That makes the failure rate for angels sent to middle earth eighty
percent. Perhaps it is fortunate that they didn't send any to the
south.
William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 5, 8:22 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>
>> Funny thing. Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
>> extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
>> Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
>> again. And that's all there is to remember.
>
>I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
>mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
>strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
I don't remember that one ... and I've read the collected letters
several times over. Do you have a cite?
Radagast wasn't irrelevant. We don't see most of what he did in
Middle-earth, but we can suspect that it was involved with
keeping the earth and its creatures healthy. (In which case he
was probably closer than any other Istar to Tom Bombadil, whose
origin was "the spirit of the ancient and threatened Oxfordshire
countryside".)
>or joining Sauron. I find the latter a bit difficult to believe,
Likewise. The reason Saurman fell was that he was the greatest
of the Istari, and knew it, and it was because he was already so
high that his fall was greater and deeper.
I quote from a fine essay, "Great Science Fiction and Fantasy
Works: J. R. R. Tolkien," by Eric Walker.
http://greatsfandf.com/AUTHORS/JRRTolkien.php
Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential.
as
>with two wizards on his side for a long period of time I'd have
>expected the war to be over long before. They doubtless looked like
>easterlings.
Whatever easterlings look like: we never met any in the books.
Szymon Sokół
> In article <63c814b6-6ec4-4053...@o9g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Dec 5, 8:22 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Funny thing. Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
>>> extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
>>> Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
>>> again. And that's all there is to remember.
>>
>>I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
>>mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
>>strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
>
> I don't remember that one ... and I've read the collected letters
> several times over. Do you have a cite?
Wikipedia has:
I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south,
.... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had
I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless
in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret
cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards
It also says that Tolkien changed his mind about them later.
--
Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B
Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O
http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F
Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
Robert Bannister
I had them down in my mind as Indians because of the elephants.
--
Rob Bannister
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes, except ... the Mumakil were bigger than any elephants on
Middle-earth today, whether African or Indian (which are smaller
and less docile than the African). What's now Africa is closer
to what's now Middle-earth than what's now India is.
They are vague brown-skinned people who wear gold, ride
elephants, and have been bamboozled or forced into fighting for
the wrong side. But note that Tolkien doesn't treat them or any
of his other antagonists as cardboard bad guys, either. Look
again at Sam's reaction to the dead man.
Dorothy J Heydt
Szymon Sokรณล <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 20:25:37 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> In article <63c814b6-6ec4-4053...@o9g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Funny thing. ย Tolkien said in one letter somewhere that the two
>>>> extra wizards had blue for a color, were named Alatar and
>>>> Pallando, and had gone far into the east and were never seen
>>>
>>>I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
>>>mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
>>>strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
>>
>> I don't remember that one ... and I've read the collected letters
>> several times over. Do you have a cite?
>
>Wikipedia has:
>
>I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south,
>.... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had
>I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless
>in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret
>cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards
>
>It also says that Tolkien changed his mind about them later.
Hmmmm. I always tend to distrust Wikipedia a little (or a lot,
depending on context), but the sources of this article look good.
Thanks for the reference.
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:LD0on...@kithrup.com...
Yeah, he abandoned it only a few moths before he started it.
Mike Schilling
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:8m5e5n...@mid.individual.net...
Hannibal had elephants.
ppint. at pplay
rob...@bigpond.com "Robert Bannister" observed:
> Brenda Clough wrote:
>> Brian M. Scott wrote:
>>> I think that this is a very idiosyncratic interpretation.
>>> In particular, I can't recall any evidence that Radagast
>>> ignored the rules, and it seems a considerable stretch, to
>>> say the least, to say that Gandalf worked outside the rules.
>>
>> think there is a color heirarchy.
>
>Blue means 'on drugs' or at least eccentric, doesn't it? - blue music,
>Alice's blue caterpillar...
- yes indeed; which is obviously why the police dress in
blue, habitually display/ed a blue light outside stations
and, together with fire engines and ambulances, employ
blue flashing lights as well as sirens to indicate that
they are travelling at high speed or upon an emergency...
>not sure about movies, though.
- obviously indicative of the emergency supply of porn;
>Aren't the blue wizards another species or something? I don't remember
>much about them.
- ah; having been teased and tittilated, these'll be those
istari who're in desperate need of the services of the above.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"The people all paint themselves red, and eat monkeys,
whereof there is an inexhaustible supply in the hills."
- Histories, Book Four - Herodotus
ppint. at pplay
rob...@bigpond.com "Robert Bannister" declared:
- that saruman, in his megalomaniacal folly, chose to abjure
the path of wisdom and abandoned his habitual white together
with his original commission, alongside the other istari, to
seek to encourage and foster the resistance of the good of
middle-earth to the spreading tentacles of sauron's evil, but
not set themselves up to directly oppose him with power (and,
incidentally, chose to abandon his position at the head of the
white council), was his forfeiture of white *because of his sub-
sequant entrapment and twisting, via the palantir, into an evil
tool by sauron?*
- i do not believe the benign divine powers of and above middle-
earth, as portrayed by its author, would contemplate punishment
of *anyone* for a crime as-yet uncommitted; but, in any case, it
is indicated that to abandon white was saruman's *_choice_*.
- love, a ppint. thinking this is a strange form of forfeiture.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"They're not corrupt; they're just pragmatic."
- gareth husk in i.m.t. 11:20 bst 16/5/98 (5/16/98 for merkins)
Michael Urban
David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>text evidence for this?
>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
I have said many times that I would love to see Morgan Freeman
play Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
He played God once, didn't he?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
norrin
> In article <idig3d$4e...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Dan Tilque <dtil...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
> >Robert Bannister wrote:
> >> On 5/12/10 9:15 AM, Jim Burns wrote:
>
> >>> I don't remember a specific passage, but I wouldn't be
> >>> surprised if the Evil Southerners that fought the Men
> >>> of Westernesse before the gates of Minas Tirith looked
> >>> non-European.
>
> >> At the back of my mind, they were dark skinned, but that might just have
> >> been because of the elephants.
>
> >I believe they are described in LotR as being "swarthy".
>
> Let me get the text....
>
> "More Men going to Mordor," [Gollum] said in a low voice. "Dark
> faces. We have not seen Men like these before, no, Smeagol has
> not. They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black
> hair, and gold rings in their ears; yes, lots of beautiful gold."
>
> Note, long black hair, not masses of frizzy black hair.
>
> And later, when the man of Harad falls dead at their feet:
>
> He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward,
> green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden
> collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of
> overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of
> hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand
> still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.
In the classical age, India was famed for gold mines. It supplied
the Persian empire with gold and elephants. Of course the people
who wrote that had never been to India. Africa also has elephants,
but the gold mines of South Africa were unknown.
> It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he
> did not like it month. He was glad that he could not see the
> dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came
> from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats
> had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not
> really rather have stayed there in peace.
>
> The Haradrim, as we can see, are calques (as a British
> philologist would put it; an American would say
> "loan-translations") of the rather vague image of Arabs in the
> minds of medieval Europeans. Like Lewis's Calormenes in Narnia.
The Calormenes have gold?
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, yeah, he sort of specializes in playing God, doesn't he?
But having him play Gandalf would be like having a paleface play
Othello without makeup.
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes, and (I think) Asimov mentions somewhere listening to L.
Sprague de Camp talking about the sole battle in which both
African and Indian elephants were used, acting the parts of one
side and the other and the elephants by turns. Unfortunately, I
can't find the cite now and I forget which battle it was.
Dorothy J Heydt
Probably, though I haven't read the Narnia stories in years.
Must remedy that sometime....
Michael Stemper
>In article <idlmqt$hoh$1...@reader1.panix.com>, Michael Urban <ur...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <8lv86...@mid.individual.net>, David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
>>>text evidence for this?
>>>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>>
>>I have said many times that I would love to see Morgan Freeman
>>play Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
>
>Well, yeah, he sort of specializes in playing God, doesn't he?
>
>But having him play Gandalf would be like having a paleface play
>Othello without makeup.
I'd just like to point out this little snippet from Book I, Chapter 6:
The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their
origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree [...]
Keep that in mind the next time somebody comes along and makes the
bogus claim that "Tolkien made all the good guys light-skinned and
all the bad guys dark-skinned."
For bonus points, who does this describe:
At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man, with a
pale wise face [...]
Tevzn Jbezgbathr
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
2 + 2 = 5, for sufficiently large values of 2
Wayne Throop
:: Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
: He played God once, didn't he?
No. At least twice.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Anthony Nance
> :: I have said many times that I would love to see Morgan Freeman play
> :: Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
>
> : He played God once, didn't he?
>
> No. At least twice.
And George Burns did so at least thrice.
George Burns as Gandalf. Hmm.
- Tony
William Hyde
> In article <63c814b6-6ec4-4053-98e9-558bd5aa3...@o9g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
> William Hyde <wthyde1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
> >mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
> >strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
>
> I don't remember that one ... and I've read the collected letters
> several times over. Do you have a cite?
The wikipedia entry Szymon gave is not my source (I recall reading it
on paper, but not just what paper). I'll have to look for it. I'm
pretty sure it isn't in the collected letters, as I seem to recal
reading this for the first time long after reading the letters.
>
> Radagast wasn't irrelevant. We don't see most of what he did in
> Middle-earth, but we can suspect that it was involved with
> keeping the earth and its creatures healthy.
Clicking through to the other wikipedia articles on wizards will bring
you to Tolkein's opinion of Radagast. A failure, but not a failure on
the scale of Saurman. While he was there to take care of the natural
world, he was also there to oppose Sauron, which he largely forgot to
do. Tolkein comments that Radagast was probably allowed back into the
undying lands, which seems a bit harsh to me. He was more or less
drafted into the mission, and wasn't a particularly powerful Maia even
before he was diminished to the role of wizard.
They doubtless looked like
> >easterlings.
>
> Whatever easterlings look like: we never met any in the books.
There's a reference to swarthy, dark haired and dark eyed easterlings
in the Silmarillion (some were allies against Morgoth). Of course,
this is in the first age, thousands of years before the events in
LOTR.
William Hyde
trag
wrote:
> I'd just like to point out this little snippet from Book I, Chapter 6:
>
> The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their
> origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree [...]
>
> Keep that in mind the next time somebody comes along and makes the
> bogus claim that "Tolkien made all the good guys light-skinned and
> all the bad guys dark-skinned."
Just to advocate the devil...that passage could simply mean darker of
hair and eye, as in, "tall, dark and handsome".
trag
> While he was there to take care of the natural
> world, he was also there to oppose Sauron, which he largely forgot to
> do. Tolkein comments that Radagast was probably allowed back into the
> undying lands, which seems a bit harsh to me. He was more or less
> drafted into the mission, and wasn't a particularly powerful Maia even
> before he was diminished to the role of wizard.
Did you leave out a "not" in that sentence or is my parser just not
working well today.
Wayne Throop
Brian M. Scott
<mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote in
<news:idlu7i$vu8$2...@news.eternal-september.org> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> I'd just like to point out this little snippet from Book I, Chapter 6:
> The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their
> origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree [...]
> Keep that in mind the next time somebody comes along and
> makes the bogus claim that "Tolkien made all the good
> guys light-skinned and all the bad guys dark-skinned."
To me that merely suggests that the Rangers were typically
dark-haired and hadn't the very pale skin of some blonds and
redheads. It certainly doesn't imply that they were
dark-skinned.
[...]
Brian
Paul Colquhoun
| In article <LD2Hq...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
|>In article <idlmqt$hoh$1...@reader1.panix.com>, Michael Urban <ur...@panix.com> wrote:
|>>In article <8lv86...@mid.individual.net>, David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
|
|>>>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
|>>>text evidence for this?
|>>>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
|>>
|>>I have said many times that I would love to see Morgan Freeman
|>>play Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
|>
|>Well, yeah, he sort of specializes in playing God, doesn't he?
|>
|>But having him play Gandalf would be like having a paleface play
|>Othello without makeup.
|
| I'd just like to point out this little snippet from Book I, Chapter 6:
|
| The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their
| origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree [...]
Perhaps they were just more suntanned/weather-beaten from their life of
wandering in the wilds.
| Keep that in mind the next time somebody comes along and makes the
| bogus claim that "Tolkien made all the good guys light-skinned and
| all the bad guys dark-skinned."
|
| For bonus points, who does this describe:
|
| At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man, with a
| pale wise face [...]
|
| Tevzn Jbezgbathr
|
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
Dimensional Traveler
>
> Clicking through to the other wikipedia articles on wizards will bring
> you to Tolkein's opinion of Radagast. A failure, but not a failure on
> the scale of Saurman. While he was there to take care of the natural
> world, he was also there to oppose Sauron, which he largely forgot to
> do. Tolkein comments that Radagast was probably allowed back into the
> undying lands, which seems a bit harsh to me. He was more or less
> drafted into the mission, and wasn't a particularly powerful Maia even
> before he was diminished to the role of wizard.
>
--
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a
stick."
Moriarty
> In article <idlmqt$ho...@reader1.panix.com>,
>
> Michael Urban <ur...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In article <8lv864Fg...@mid.individual.net>,
> >David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>I have always thought of Gandalf as looking Caucasian, but is there any
> >>text evidence for this?
> >>He is described as having dark eyes in the chapter "Many Meetings"
>
> >I have said many times that I would love to see Morgan Freeman
> >play Gandalf, or a Gandalf-like character.
>
> Well, yeah, he sort of specializes in playing God, doesn't he?
>
> But having him play Gandalf would be like having a paleface play
> Othello without makeup.
Heck, if (black) Denzel Washington can play the Prince in _Much Ado
About Nothing_ while (white) Keanu Reeves plays his brother AND they
can pull it off amazingly well, then anything's possible.
Morgan Freeman as Gandalf? Possibly. He's got the necessary gravitas
and can be light hearted too. It'd work.
-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
William Hyde <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 6, 3:25 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> In article <63c814b6-6ec4-4053-98e9-558bd5aa3...@o9g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>> William Hyde <wthyde1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >I think he further mentionied a letter that they had failed in their
>> >mission (the hordes of Easterlings fighting for Sauron being pretty
>> >strong evidence of that) either becoming irrelevant as Radagast did,
>>
>> I don't remember that one ... and I've read the collected letters
>> several times over. Do you have a cite?
>
>The wikipedia entry Szymon gave is not my source (I recall reading it
>on paper, but not just what paper). I'll have to look for it. I'm
>pretty sure it isn't in the collected letters, as I seem to recal
>reading this for the first time long after reading the letters.
>>
>> Radagast wasn't irrelevant. We don't see most of what he did in
>> Middle-earth, but we can suspect that it was involved with
>> keeping the earth and its creatures healthy.
>
>Clicking through to the other wikipedia articles on wizards will bring
>you to Tolkein's opinion of Radagast. A failure, but not a failure on
s/Tolkein/Tolkien/
>the scale of Saurman. While he was there to take care of the natural
>world, he was also there to oppose Sauron, which he largely forgot to
>do. Tolkein comments that Radagast was probably allowed back into the
>undying lands, which seems a bit harsh to me. He was more or less
>drafted into the mission, and wasn't a particularly powerful Maia even
>before he was diminished to the role of wizard.
>
> They doubtless looked like
>> >easterlings.
>>
>> Whatever easterlings look like: we never met any in the books.
>
>There's a reference to swarthy, dark haired and dark eyed easterlings
>in the Silmarillion (some were allies against Morgoth). Of course,
>this is in the first age, thousands of years before the events in
>LOTR.
Right. What was the scarcely inhabited east of Middle-earth in
the First Age is now the western part of Middle-earth in the late
Third Age.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 12/7/2010 11:40 AM, William Hyde wrote:
>>
>> Clicking through to the other wikipedia articles on wizards will bring
>> you to Tolkein's opinion of Radagast. A failure, but not a failure on
>> the scale of Saurman. While he was there to take care of the natural
>> world, he was also there to oppose Sauron, which he largely forgot to
>> do. Tolkein comments that Radagast was probably allowed back into the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> undying lands, which seems a bit harsh to me. He was more or less
>> drafted into the mission, and wasn't a particularly powerful Maia even
>> before he was diminished to the role of wizard.
>>
>Being allowed to return to Heaven is harsh?
I think, mind you I say I *think*, he means that Manwe Sulimo
took the will for the dead and *let* him come back, rather than
his coming back as an undisputed right.
Dorothy J Heydt
Hmmmmm, interesting thought. Though my ideal Gandalf would've
been Tom Baker. (I understand he was asked about the part, and
turned it down. Damn.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Of course that's what it meant. The Dunedain appear to have had
black hair and blue or grey eyes ... in other words, they all
looked like Aragorn. No wonder, after umpteen generations of
inbreeding.
Moriarty
> In article <idkp28$8d...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
> Mike Schilling <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> >> I had them down in my mind as Indians because of the elephants.
>
> >Hannibal had elephants.
>
> Yes, and (I think) Asimov mentions somewhere listening to L.
> Sprague de Camp talking about the sole battle in which both
> African and Indian elephants were used, acting the parts of one
> side and the other and the elephants by turns. Unfortunately, I
> can't find the cite now and I forget which battle it was.
The Battle of Magnesia. 190BC, Romans vs Seleucid Empire.
-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
Thanks! I shall look it up in detail when I have a minute.
tphile
> : na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance)
> : George Burns as Gandalf. Hmm.
>
> Say goodnight, Saruman.
>
Now that would be interesting. LoTR cast with our funniest comedians
Bob Hope as Gimli
Bing Crosby as Legolas
Jack Benny as Aragorn
Lucille Ball as Galadriell
The Marx Brothers as the hobbits
tphile