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(Quora) Mary Sueishness
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David Johnston
Jan 15, 2019, 6:59:33 PM1/15/19
to
What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
And yet the worlds he visits are interesting enough that I’m not too
bothered unlike Sandman Slim.
Let me sample one of the reviews on Goodreads to give you an idea:
WOWZA!! Rarely have I encountered a main character so loaded withANGSTY
RAGENESS and OMNIDIRECTIONAL BADITUDE as James Stark (aka Sandman Slim).
I mean this guy is full of ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!...and it works...mostly.
Sandman Slim is the story of a half-human half angel sorcerer who was
banished to Hell by a cabal of sorcerers who were mad because he was so
awesome and they could get more power by sacrificing someone who was so
awesome but then he became even more awesome in Hell and escaped to come
back and get his revenge. Which was kind of easy seeing as how he was
more powerful than they were even before he got his power upgrade.
It didn’t work for me. And no I don’t consider being female to be a
prerequisite for being Mary Sue. But that’s not to say I have no females
who I regard as fitting into that category. I could mention Bella Swan
but I decline because all my information about how awful she is comes
second, maybe third hand. More to the point I have read Anita Blake
I’m not going to lie to you, it started out OK as far as I was
concerned. But then Laurell Hamilton got divorced and her somewhat over
the top character evolved into the sex goddess of the world whose
biggest problem was scheduling her huge and ever growing harem of
gorgeous men.
First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
And yet the worlds he visits are interesting enough that I’m not too
bothered unlike Sandman Slim.
Let me sample one of the reviews on Goodreads to give you an idea:
WOWZA!! Rarely have I encountered a main character so loaded withANGSTY
RAGENESS and OMNIDIRECTIONAL BADITUDE as James Stark (aka Sandman Slim).
I mean this guy is full of ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!...and it works...mostly.
Sandman Slim is the story of a half-human half angel sorcerer who was
banished to Hell by a cabal of sorcerers who were mad because he was so
awesome and they could get more power by sacrificing someone who was so
awesome but then he became even more awesome in Hell and escaped to come
back and get his revenge. Which was kind of easy seeing as how he was
more powerful than they were even before he got his power upgrade.
It didn’t work for me. And no I don’t consider being female to be a
prerequisite for being Mary Sue. But that’s not to say I have no females
who I regard as fitting into that category. I could mention Bella Swan
but I decline because all my information about how awful she is comes
second, maybe third hand. More to the point I have read Anita Blake
I’m not going to lie to you, it started out OK as far as I was
concerned. But then Laurell Hamilton got divorced and her somewhat over
the top character evolved into the sex goddess of the world whose
biggest problem was scheduling her huge and ever growing harem of
gorgeous men.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jan 15, 2019, 7:11:56 PM1/15/19
to
In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
the remit to write a softcore fantasy adventure series. So you have the
softcore porn, and generally a competently written fantasy adventure.
Win/win, but I never got the feeling Blade was an avatar for Jeffrey Lord
(whoever he is or was).
Recent Mary Sues I have read are:
To Claim a King (Age of Gold Book 1)
by May Sage
http://amzn.to/2uNc8JE
Just a bad book even aside from the MSness.
_Don't Rush Me_ (Nora Jacobs Book One)
by Jackie May
https://amzn.to/2raHsR4
Actually a pretty fun book. Yes, Nora is a Mary Sue who will eventually
have a harem of most of the men we meet (though I have not yet read past
book one where she is to shellshocked for anything like that), but
despite some occasional clunkiness, there is enough story to work anyway.
Magical Intentions (Biomystic Security Book 1)
by Jaliza A. Burwell
https://amzn.to/2ImjISx
Lalia Porter is just the bestest ever and everybody loves her gosh darn it!
Unfortunately she is so much better than her security firm (or they are just
not very good at all) that it becomes ludicrous.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
>First let's clarify definitions. A 'Mary Sue' is a character the author
>is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
>is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
>is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
>hero 'Richard Blade' is what you'd get if you crossbred James Bond and
>Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
>who were the author's fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
>And yet the worlds he visits are interesting enough that I'm not too
>bothered unlike Sandman Slim.
I would say more that Blade was the result of a competent author getting
>What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
>First let's clarify definitions. A 'Mary Sue' is a character the author
>is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
>is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
>is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
>hero 'Richard Blade' is what you'd get if you crossbred James Bond and
>Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
>who were the author's fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
>And yet the worlds he visits are interesting enough that I'm not too
>bothered unlike Sandman Slim.
the remit to write a softcore fantasy adventure series. So you have the
softcore porn, and generally a competently written fantasy adventure.
Win/win, but I never got the feeling Blade was an avatar for Jeffrey Lord
(whoever he is or was).
Recent Mary Sues I have read are:
To Claim a King (Age of Gold Book 1)
by May Sage
http://amzn.to/2uNc8JE
Just a bad book even aside from the MSness.
_Don't Rush Me_ (Nora Jacobs Book One)
by Jackie May
https://amzn.to/2raHsR4
Actually a pretty fun book. Yes, Nora is a Mary Sue who will eventually
have a harem of most of the men we meet (though I have not yet read past
book one where she is to shellshocked for anything like that), but
despite some occasional clunkiness, there is enough story to work anyway.
Magical Intentions (Biomystic Security Book 1)
by Jaliza A. Burwell
https://amzn.to/2ImjISx
Lalia Porter is just the bestest ever and everybody loves her gosh darn it!
Unfortunately she is so much better than her security firm (or they are just
not very good at all) that it becomes ludicrous.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Steve Dodds
Jan 15, 2019, 7:34:38 PM1/15/19
to
at least 1 of them had written a bunch of Conan books. Don't know if
any of them had written any Bond books.
Moriarty
Jan 15, 2019, 7:45:09 PM1/15/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 10:59:33 AM UTC+11, David Johnston wrote:
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> is, of course, a subjective standard.
Using that definition, and I'm certain others will have a different one, off the top of my head:
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> is, of course, a subjective standard.
Ayla from Jean M. Auel's Caveman porn series. A character so perfect, she is described - literally - as having only one flaw: she can't sing. She invents everything under the sun, can ride a lion, tames horses and dogs thousands of years before domestication occurred, discovers contraception, is an amazing lay, and is instantly worshipped by almost everyone she comes into contact with. The exceptions to the worship are obvious bad guys who either succumb to her charms or are easily defeated.
Jack Ryan and Honor Harrington. I'm sure there's crossover fanfic where these two perfect characters meet and breed. I don't want to read it.
-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 15, 2019, 8:05:03 PM1/15/19
to
>It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
>prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
>prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ahasuerus
Jan 15, 2019, 8:25:22 PM1/15/19
to
to have committed at least one Richard Blade book each -- see
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/lord_jeffrey for details. There has
been speculation that the "packager"/"producer" of the series, Lyle
Kenyon Engel, wrote some of the later volumes -- see
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/engel_lyle_kenyon
Kevrob
Jan 15, 2019, 8:58:45 PM1/15/19
to
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 8:05:03 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
> >prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
>
> Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
I like that better than "Marty Stu."
> In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
> >prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
>
> Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
Marty Stuart is a very accomplished country/bluegrass
performer.
Kevin R
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 15, 2019, 10:07:28 PM1/15/19
to
On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I require
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a SELF
INSERT. That is, plenty of characters are "isn't this character awesome"
to impressive levels. But a far more specific thing, particularly common
in fanfic but also seen in written fiction, is "wouldn't I be awesome if
only". The Mary Sue character is a wish-fulfillment character that is
recognizably directly based on the author. It may be (often is) an
IDEALIZED version of the author, but it will be the author nonetheless.
Such characters don't HAVE to be absolutely terrible... but they
usually will be.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Moriarty
Jan 15, 2019, 10:22:31 PM1/15/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 2:07:28 PM UTC+11, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> >
> > First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> > is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> > is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> > is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> > hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> > Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> > who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I require
> one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a SELF
> INSERT.
Out of curiousity, is wossname (Eric? the protag of "Polychrome") a Mary Sue?
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> >
> > First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> > is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> > is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> > is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> > hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> > Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> > who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I require
> one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a SELF
> INSERT.
I saw him as a self insert, if I'm wrong about that please correct/mock me as you see fit.
-Moriarty
Joe Bernstein
Jan 15, 2019, 10:29:38 PM1/15/19
to
David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org:
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
> enjoyment.
So then what do you call a character who'd be a Mary Sue except that
the author is actually doing a complicated job of interrogating the
whole idea of Mary Sueness, and what we expect of protagonists, and
like that? That's Kristen Britain's Karigan G'ladheon. Every man
she meets loves her, which results in jealousies, accostings, and her
intense desire to avoid all men, even the one she herself loves,
because we're just too much trouble. She's so competent that she
takes on things way too big for her and screws them up completely,
endangering the kingdom. [1] At least that's the way I remember it,
but that's cruder than I remember it being. At the time I was very
impressed, stunned that a secondary world fantasy series could do
something that complex and, for that subgenre, unfamiliar. Sooner or
later I need to get back to that series.
Joe Bernstein
[1] Huh. That description would work pretty well for Ursula Le
Guin's Ged, too, wouldn't it? I don't think he's ever been called
one. (But no, I'm wrong. The search ' "Le Guin" Ged "Mary Sue" '
produces some interesting results. But wait, I'm not wrong - they're
all talking about how Le Guin does things right, as opposed to
whichever Mary Sue they're objecting to. Ah, OK, here we go:
<http://thesummersleeper.blogspot.com/2016/03/wizard-of-earthsea-and-tomb-of-atuan.html>
and
<http://thesummersleeper.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-furthest-shore-earthsea-cycle.html>.)
I postponed posting this to read ' "Too Good To Be True": 150 Years
Of Mary Sue' by Pat Pflieger:
<http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.xhtml>
which I recommend. The original parody <Star Trek> story that coined
the term is apparently in:
<http://www.ftlpublications.com/bw.htm>
Both links from:
<http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mary-Sue-fanfiction>
which was, believe it or not, also a result of the Ged search.
--
Joe Bernstein <Kdeu...@gmail.com>
news:q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org:
> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>
> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
> enjoyment.
the author is actually doing a complicated job of interrogating the
whole idea of Mary Sueness, and what we expect of protagonists, and
like that? That's Kristen Britain's Karigan G'ladheon. Every man
she meets loves her, which results in jealousies, accostings, and her
intense desire to avoid all men, even the one she herself loves,
because we're just too much trouble. She's so competent that she
takes on things way too big for her and screws them up completely,
endangering the kingdom. [1] At least that's the way I remember it,
but that's cruder than I remember it being. At the time I was very
impressed, stunned that a secondary world fantasy series could do
something that complex and, for that subgenre, unfamiliar. Sooner or
later I need to get back to that series.
Joe Bernstein
[1] Huh. That description would work pretty well for Ursula Le
Guin's Ged, too, wouldn't it? I don't think he's ever been called
one. (But no, I'm wrong. The search ' "Le Guin" Ged "Mary Sue" '
produces some interesting results. But wait, I'm not wrong - they're
all talking about how Le Guin does things right, as opposed to
whichever Mary Sue they're objecting to. Ah, OK, here we go:
<http://thesummersleeper.blogspot.com/2016/03/wizard-of-earthsea-and-tomb-of-atuan.html>
and
<http://thesummersleeper.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-furthest-shore-earthsea-cycle.html>.)
I postponed posting this to read ' "Too Good To Be True": 150 Years
Of Mary Sue' by Pat Pflieger:
<http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.xhtml>
which I recommend. The original parody <Star Trek> story that coined
the term is apparently in:
<http://www.ftlpublications.com/bw.htm>
Both links from:
<http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mary-Sue-fanfiction>
which was, believe it or not, also a result of the Ged search.
--
Joe Bernstein <Kdeu...@gmail.com>
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 15, 2019, 11:00:02 PM1/15/19
to
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 15, 2019, 11:05:02 PM1/15/19
to
In article <XnsA9D8C64BC5A7B...@144.76.35.198>,
Rider_. /e makes note
Joe Bernstein <Kdeu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org:
>
>> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>>
>> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
>> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
>> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
>> enjoyment.
>
>So then what do you call a character who'd be a Mary Sue except that
>the author is actually doing a complicated job of interrogating the
>whole idea of Mary Sueness, and what we expect of protagonists, and
>like that? That's Kristen Britain's Karigan G'ladheon. Every man
>she meets loves her, which results in jealousies, accostings, and her
>intense desire to avoid all men, even the one she herself loves,
>because we're just too much trouble. She's so competent that she
>takes on things way too big for her and screws them up completely,
>endangering the kingdom. [1] At least that's the way I remember it,
>but that's cruder than I remember it being. At the time I was very
>impressed, stunned that a secondary world fantasy series could do
>something that complex and, for that subgenre, unfamiliar. Sooner or
>later I need to get back to that series.
Hm. Google tells me this series is called, and begins with, _Green
>David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org:
>
>> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>>
>> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
>> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
>> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
>> enjoyment.
>
>So then what do you call a character who'd be a Mary Sue except that
>the author is actually doing a complicated job of interrogating the
>whole idea of Mary Sueness, and what we expect of protagonists, and
>like that? That's Kristen Britain's Karigan G'ladheon. Every man
>she meets loves her, which results in jealousies, accostings, and her
>intense desire to avoid all men, even the one she herself loves,
>because we're just too much trouble. She's so competent that she
>takes on things way too big for her and screws them up completely,
>endangering the kingdom. [1] At least that's the way I remember it,
>but that's cruder than I remember it being. At the time I was very
>impressed, stunned that a secondary world fantasy series could do
>something that complex and, for that subgenre, unfamiliar. Sooner or
>later I need to get back to that series.
Rider_. /e makes note
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 16, 2019, 12:15:23 AM1/16/19
to
David Johnston
Jan 16, 2019, 2:18:48 AM1/16/19
to
On 2019-01-15 8:07 p.m., Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>>
>> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
>> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
>> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
>> enjoyment. It is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s
>> science fiction hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you
>> crossbred James Bond and Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were
>> ostentatiously awesome characters who were the author’s fantasy
>> projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I
> require one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a
> SELF INSERT.
Self inserts are the most common kind of being so heavily invested in
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
>>
>> First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the
>> author is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the
>> character is irritates the person using that slur and damages their
>> enjoyment. It is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s
>> science fiction hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you
>> crossbred James Bond and Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were
>> ostentatiously awesome characters who were the author’s fantasy
>> projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I
> require one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a
> SELF INSERT.
the character but I can think of at least one notorious character from
Star Trek fanfic who wasn't an insertion of the author but rather of the
girl he was into.
Juho Julkunen
Jan 16, 2019, 10:31:07 AM1/16/19
to
In article <757602e3-40c0-4592...@googlegroups.com>,
kev...@my-deja.com says...
--
Juho Julkunen
kev...@my-deja.com says...
>
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 8:05:03 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> > David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
> > >prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
> >
> > Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
>
>
> I like that better than "Marty Stu."
>
Sometimes it's Gary or Larry.
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 8:05:03 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> > David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
> > >prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
> >
> > Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
>
>
> I like that better than "Marty Stu."
>
--
Juho Julkunen
Kevrob
Jan 16, 2019, 10:43:27 AM1/16/19
to
Kevin R
Dimensional Traveler
Jan 16, 2019, 10:43:59 AM1/16/19
to
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
-dsr-
Jan 16, 2019, 4:08:05 PM1/16/19
to
-dsr-
David Johnston
Jan 16, 2019, 4:22:57 PM1/16/19
to
On 2019-01-15 5:49 p.m., Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
>> prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
>
> Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
>
Yeah. I'm not worried about impugning the masculinity of bad fictional
> In article <q1ls4v$1o9s$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> It didn't work for me. And no I don't consider being female to be a
>> prerequisite for being Mary Sue.
>
> Male Mary-Sue-equivalents are sometimes known as Barry Stu.
>
characters so I don't bother.
Lynn McGuire
Jan 16, 2019, 4:40:40 PM1/16/19
to
Lynn
David Johnston
Jan 16, 2019, 4:50:02 PM1/16/19
to
Kevrob
Jan 16, 2019, 4:55:45 PM1/16/19
to
"..and all through the night he was Honor and off her."
Kevin R
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 16, 2019, 6:55:31 PM1/16/19
to
be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
fulfillment" category.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 16, 2019, 6:57:03 PM1/16/19
to
to the Harrington series, Honor Knees, Honor Back, and Honor and Offer.
Leif Roar Moldskred
Jan 16, 2019, 7:31:31 PM1/16/19
to
Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Like the old rhyme:
>
> "..and all through the night he was Honor and off her."
>
...
>
> Like the old rhyme:
>
> "..and all through the night he was Honor and off her."
>
He was on her; he was in her
In the twinkling of an eye.
He was out again, and in again,
And plowing up a storm.
And the only words she said to him:
"I hope you're keeping warm."
/ Singing bell bottom trousers,
Coat of navy-blue.
Let him climb the rigging
Like his daddy used to do. /
-- Bell Bottom Trousers
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Miles really shouldn't climb the rigging though, not with his bones.
Leif Roar Moldskred
Jan 16, 2019, 7:37:50 PM1/16/19
to
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
> fulfillment" category.
>
My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the lines
>
> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
> fulfillment" category.
>
of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around itself."
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
But not like a kilt.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 16, 2019, 9:55:36 PM1/16/19
to
Kevrob
Jan 16, 2019, 10:28:08 PM1/16/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 9:55:36 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <2rmdnRlSPqXBU6LB...@giganews.com>,
> Leif Roar Moldskred <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
> >"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
> >> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
> >> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
> >> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
> >> fulfillment" category.
> >>
> >
> >My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the lines
> >of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around itself."
>
> Nicely put
"Funny. You don't LOOK Sueish...."
> In article <2rmdnRlSPqXBU6LB...@giganews.com>,
> Leif Roar Moldskred <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
> >"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
> >> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
> >> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
> >> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
> >> fulfillment" category.
> >>
> >
> >My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the lines
> >of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around itself."
>
> Nicely put
Kevin R
Gene Wirchenko
Jan 17, 2019, 12:52:52 AM1/17/19
to
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:57:00 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I don't remember who it was who first posted the proposed NC-17 finale
>to the Harrington series, Honor Knees, Honor Back, and Honor and Offer.
It seems there could be some argument as to reading order, but
what else is new in rasfw?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I don't remember who it was who first posted the proposed NC-17 finale
>to the Harrington series, Honor Knees, Honor Back, and Honor and Offer.
what else is new in rasfw?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Robert Carnegie
Jan 17, 2019, 6:41:32 AM1/17/19
to
reading glasses. Yes, that nicely describes the
misuse of the setting, and the medium.
Kevrob
Jan 17, 2019, 10:03:04 AM1/17/19
to
the Buddy Holly songs, "Peggy Sue" and "Peggy Sue Got Married."
It seemed an obvious way to go.
A cursory search turned up the news that the _real_ Peggy Sue
(not the one from the Kathleen Turner film)* passed away late
last year.
https://www.lubbockonline.com/news/20181001/peggy-sue-gerron-inspiration-for-buddy-holly-song-dies-in-lubbock
* Time travel is involved, so ObSFfilm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Sue_Got_Married
Kevin R
Magewolf
Jan 17, 2019, 11:47:17 AM1/17/19
to
actually got published in books that had to go through an editor. I
think the first time I ran across one was in the Diane Carey books
Dreadnought and Battlestations.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 17, 2019, 12:10:09 PM1/17/19
to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empath
It was pretty awful.
I knew the author. (She died some years ago so I can safely say
the above.)
Kevrob
Jan 17, 2019, 12:10:12 PM1/17/19
to
that cropped up in ST fanfiction, IMS.
See:
https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
Kevin R
Kevrob
Jan 17, 2019, 12:21:03 PM1/17/19
to
On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:10:12 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> See:
>
> https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale
>
> https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
Look at what their example of "not a Mary Sue fanfic" is!
> See:
>
> https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale
>
> https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dorothy_and_Myfanwy_Series
Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jan 17, 2019, 2:07:57 PM1/17/19
to
In article <pLHJ8...@kithrup.com>,
That's the one where they figured that having characters named "Gem" & "Jim"
would be OK.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
would be OK.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Jan 17, 2019, 2:34:36 PM1/17/19
to
t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote in
news:gac24a...@mid.individual.net:
That was one of the lesser sins for that episode.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:gac24a...@mid.individual.net:
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 17, 2019, 3:30:02 PM1/17/19
to
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 17, 2019, 3:40:02 PM1/17/19
to
In article <b88530f5-4871-40ec...@googlegroups.com>,
They said Conway and Orloff *wasn't* Mary Sue? I'm ...
flattered.
OTOH, writing several hundred pages of fanfic is one way of
(making a start on) getting the million words out of your system
before you can be a proper writer.
(Who was it that first mention the million words of crap? Was it
Heinlein?)
flattered.
OTOH, writing several hundred pages of fanfic is one way of
(making a start on) getting the million words out of your system
before you can be a proper writer.
(Who was it that first mention the million words of crap? Was it
Heinlein?)
Ahasuerus
Jan 17, 2019, 4:00:23 PM1/17/19
to
On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 3:40:02 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <b88530f5-4871-40ec...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:10:12 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> >
> >> See:
> >>
> >> https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale
> >>
> >> https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
> >
> >Look at what their example of "not a Mary Sue fanfic" is!
> >
> >https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dorothy_and_Myfanwy_Series
>
> They said Conway and Orloff *wasn't* Mary Sue? I'm ...
> flattered.
>
> OTOH, writing several hundred pages of fanfic is one way of
> (making a start on) getting the million words out of your system
> before you can be a proper writer.
>
> (Who was it that first mention the million words of crap? Was it
> Heinlein?)
http://themillionwords.net/about/ :
> In article <b88530f5-4871-40ec...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:10:12 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> >
> >> See:
> >>
> >> https://fanlore.org/wiki/A_Trekkie%27s_Tale
> >>
> >> https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
> >
> >Look at what their example of "not a Mary Sue fanfic" is!
> >
> >https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dorothy_and_Myfanwy_Series
>
> They said Conway and Orloff *wasn't* Mary Sue? I'm ...
> flattered.
>
> OTOH, writing several hundred pages of fanfic is one way of
> (making a start on) getting the million words out of your system
> before you can be a proper writer.
>
> (Who was it that first mention the million words of crap? Was it
> Heinlein?)
"If you want to be a great writer then write a million words, and
when you’re done, you will be.”
That particular piece of advice is decades old — the earliest
attribution that we could find is to Ray Bradbury in 1974...
Joy Beeson
Jan 17, 2019, 11:33:36 PM1/17/19
to
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 13:00:19 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
<ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> "If you want to be a great writer then write a million words, and
> when you’re done, you will be.”
But it can't be emphasized too often that the million words must be
<ahas...@email.com> wrote:
> "If you want to be a great writer then write a million words, and
> when you’re done, you will be.”
the very best crap you can manage to write. You get what you train
for.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Johnny1A
Jan 17, 2019, 11:52:19 PM1/17/19
to
For a TV show example: the medium fantasy/soap opera _Once Upon A Time_ on ABC, that just finished up last year. There was a character in it, Regina, who became a Mary Sue or something closely akin as the show went on, the canon very definitely became wrapped around her, and it eventually destroyed the show.
I don't think a Mary Sue _has_ to be precisely a self-insertion character, unless we're being very purist on the definition. If we want to go that route, we need a term for Mary Sue's half-siblings, of which many exist. Conversely, not all 'mouthpiece for the author' characters are Mary Sues.
For ex, in the Dune series, the God-Emperor Leto II is pretty clearly (at least much of the time) acting as Herbert's mouthpiece, but I don't consider him remotely a self-insertion of Herbert, and while he's immensely powerful and definitely dominates both the novels he's directly in and overshadows the whole series, he's not a Mary Sue, either.
Another TV example: it's widely considered the Gene Roddenberry inserted the fan-loathed character of Wesley Crusher into _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ as a Marty Stu. He shows most of the signs of it in that first season.
In print, Anita Blake looks awfully Mary Sue-ish to me.
Harry Dresden shows a few of the traits, but not many, and he gets the crap beaten out of him a lot more than most definitions of the trait would allow for.
Interestingly, I think the character of Luke Skywalker in _Star Wars_ might very well have _started out_ as a Marty Stu avatar of George Lucas, but didn't stay that way.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 18, 2019, 8:28:36 AM1/18/19
to
On 1/17/19 11:47 AM, Magewolf wrote:
> On 1/16/2019 7:37 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary
>>> Sue. They'd
>>> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
>>> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
>>> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
>>> fulfillment" category.
>>>
>>
>> My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the
>> lines
>> of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around
>> itself."
>>
>
> I blame Star Trek for them.
Nope. They've been around since forever. I think you can find fanfic
> On 1/16/2019 7:37 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary
>>> Sue. They'd
>>> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
>>> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
>>> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
>>> fulfillment" category.
>>>
>>
>> My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the
>> lines
>> of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around
>> itself."
>>
>
> I blame Star Trek for them.
self-inserts in Holmesfic from a hundred years ago. I suspect some of
the Greek Myths were Mary Suefic, we just don't know enough about the
original authors to see it.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 18, 2019, 8:34:34 AM1/18/19
to
On 1/17/19 11:52 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 5:41:32 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Thursday, 17 January 2019 00:37:50 UTC, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
>>>> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
>>>> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
>>>> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
>>>> fulfillment" category.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the lines
>>> of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around itself."
>>
>> ...ah, "warps", not "wraps". I should be using the
>> reading glasses. Yes, that nicely describes the
>> misuse of the setting, and the medium.
>
> 'Wrap' might be a better term than 'warp', actually. A story can sometimes survived and recover from being warped, but when it gets wrapped it's another matter.
>
> For a TV show example: the medium fantasy/soap opera _Once Upon A Time_ on ABC, that just finished up last year. There was a character in it, Regina, who became a Mary Sue or something closely akin as the show went on, the canon very definitely became wrapped around her, and it eventually destroyed the show.
>
> I don't think a Mary Sue _has_ to be precisely a self-insertion character, unless we're being very purist on the definition.
If you're not purist on the definition, the term loses its use. We
> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 5:41:32 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Thursday, 17 January 2019 00:37:50 UTC, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and by my lights such a character wouldn't be a Mary Sue. They'd
>>>> be a wish-fulfillment character and might possibly suck like a hoover,
>>>> but wouldn't be a Mary Sue, because that's the, to me, thing that
>>>> separates "Mary Sue" specifically from the far broader "wish
>>>> fulfillment" category.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My favourite explanation of what a Mary Sue is was something along the lines
>>> of "a self-insert character that warps the fabric of canon around itself."
>>
>> ...ah, "warps", not "wraps". I should be using the
>> reading glasses. Yes, that nicely describes the
>> misuse of the setting, and the medium.
>
> 'Wrap' might be a better term than 'warp', actually. A story can sometimes survived and recover from being warped, but when it gets wrapped it's another matter.
>
> For a TV show example: the medium fantasy/soap opera _Once Upon A Time_ on ABC, that just finished up last year. There was a character in it, Regina, who became a Mary Sue or something closely akin as the show went on, the canon very definitely became wrapped around her, and it eventually destroyed the show.
>
> I don't think a Mary Sue _has_ to be precisely a self-insertion character, unless we're being very purist on the definition.
already have "wish-fulfillment" and "author spokesman/mouthpiece" as
separate terms.
>
> Another TV example: it's widely considered the Gene Roddenberry inserted the fan-loathed character of Wesley Crusher into _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ as a Marty Stu. He shows most of the signs of it in that first season.
"Wesley". And his self-description of himself in childhood is not unlike
Wesley Crusher.
>
> Harry Dresden shows a few of the traits, but not many, and he gets the crap beaten out of him a lot more than most definitions of the trait would allow for.
There are SuperSues (anything the Main Characters can do, they can do
better and better), SufferSues (their point is to be filled with pathos
and get sympathy), and a whole bunch more. Dresden isn't a Sue AFAIC,
but he does have some of the traits of certain types.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jan 18, 2019, 8:45:21 AM1/18/19
to
In article <b18828b2-ff7f-42c5...@googlegroups.com>,
I thought he was a Scrappy. Or is Scrappy a Mary Doo?
Juho Julkunen
Jan 18, 2019, 9:13:04 AM1/18/19
to
In article <q1ska1$aia$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...
Gospel of John is attributed to the disciple, unnamed in the text, whom
Jesus loved best.
--
Juho Julkunen
says...
Jesus loved best.
--
Juho Julkunen
Robert Carnegie
Jan 18, 2019, 4:53:21 PM1/18/19
to
tendency out of his system by then, and (b) wouldn't
/his/ Mary Sue be a sexual athlete like, oh, on the tip
of my tongue, ... James C. Clark, or something.
Kevrob
Jan 18, 2019, 4:59:43 PM1/18/19
to
On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 4:53:21 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 18 January 2019 13:34:34 UTC, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > One could call him a Mary Sue... since Roddenberry's MIDDLE NAME is
> > "Wesley". And his self-description of himself in childhood is not unlike
> > Wesley Crusher.
>
> Conceivable - but (a) wouldn't he have got any Mary Sue
> tendency out of his system by then, and (b) wouldn't
> /his/ Mary Sue be a sexual athlete like, oh, on the tip
> of my tongue, ... James C. Clark, or something.
We are supposed to believe Ashley Judd took an interest in
> On Friday, 18 January 2019 13:34:34 UTC, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > One could call him a Mary Sue... since Roddenberry's MIDDLE NAME is
> > "Wesley". And his self-description of himself in childhood is not unlike
> > Wesley Crusher.
>
> Conceivable - but (a) wouldn't he have got any Mary Sue
> tendency out of his system by then, and (b) wouldn't
> /his/ Mary Sue be a sexual athlete like, oh, on the tip
> of my tongue, ... James C. Clark, or something.
young Mr Crusher. WSoD took a hit, there.
---
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Robert Carnegie
Jan 18, 2019, 6:37:16 PM1/18/19
to
_Till Death Us Do Part_. It turns out to be not
the situation comedy, but another work with
the same title.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jan 18, 2019, 8:45:28 PM1/18/19
to
any such thing as "getting it out of your system". There are fanfic
writers that've been doing Sues for decades.
and (b) wouldn't
> /his/ Mary Sue be a sexual athlete like, oh, on the tip
> of my tongue, ... James C. Clark, or something.
David Johnston
Jan 18, 2019, 11:52:31 PM1/18/19
to
getting a lot more action.
David Goldfarb
Jan 20, 2019, 1:15:15 AM1/20/19
to
In article <q1ska1$aia$1...@dont-email.me>,
is canonical gold, you can readily view book 5 of the Iliad as an
utter Suefic.
Situation: Achilles has left the Greek army in a huff, and gotten
his mother to beg Zeus to make bad things happen to them. And do
bad things happen to them?
Nope. Instead Diomedes steps up to the plate, and wreaks such havoc
on the battlefield that the Trojans come right out and say out loud,
"We are more afraid of Diomedes than we ever were of Achilles!"
He gets to use Achilles big badass intro line before Achilles does:
"The sons of unlucky parents contend with my might." To top it all
off, he charges the war-god Ares in a chariot driven by Athena, and
sends Ares screaming back to Mount Olympus.
The one difference here between this and modern Mary Suefic is that
Diomedes is probably not a *self*-insert, but rather an extended piece
of flattery from some bard to some nobleman who claimed Diomedes as
an ancestor.
--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
goldf...@gmail.com | tonight's show...and they were six of the
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | toughest clown midgets I've ever seen."
| -- Billy Crystal
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>I suspect some of
>the Greek Myths were Mary Suefic, we just don't know enough about the
>original authors to see it.
If you throw out the preconception that all of the text which we have
>I suspect some of
>the Greek Myths were Mary Suefic, we just don't know enough about the
>original authors to see it.
is canonical gold, you can readily view book 5 of the Iliad as an
utter Suefic.
Situation: Achilles has left the Greek army in a huff, and gotten
his mother to beg Zeus to make bad things happen to them. And do
bad things happen to them?
Nope. Instead Diomedes steps up to the plate, and wreaks such havoc
on the battlefield that the Trojans come right out and say out loud,
"We are more afraid of Diomedes than we ever were of Achilles!"
He gets to use Achilles big badass intro line before Achilles does:
"The sons of unlucky parents contend with my might." To top it all
off, he charges the war-god Ares in a chariot driven by Athena, and
sends Ares screaming back to Mount Olympus.
The one difference here between this and modern Mary Suefic is that
Diomedes is probably not a *self*-insert, but rather an extended piece
of flattery from some bard to some nobleman who claimed Diomedes as
an ancestor.
--
David Goldfarb |"Federico Fellini brought his own security to
goldf...@gmail.com | tonight's show...and they were six of the
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | toughest clown midgets I've ever seen."
| -- Billy Crystal
Michael F. Stemper
Jan 20, 2019, 1:54:19 PM1/20/19
to
On 16/01/2019 18.31, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Like the old rhyme:
>>
>> "..and all through the night he was Honor and off her."
> ...
> He was on her; he was in her
> In the twinkling of an eye.
>
> He was out again, and in again,
> And plowing up a storm.
> And the only words she said to him:
> "I hope you're keeping warm."
>
> / Singing bell bottom trousers,
> Coat of navy-blue.
> Let him climb the rigging
> Like his daddy used to do. /
> -- Bell Bottom Trousers
Funny. My parents had a Mitch Miller album with "Bell Bottom Trousers"
on it, but I don't recall that verse. :->
--
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Like the old rhyme:
>>
>> "..and all through the night he was Honor and off her."
> ...
> He was on her; he was in her
> In the twinkling of an eye.
>
> He was out again, and in again,
> And plowing up a storm.
> And the only words she said to him:
> "I hope you're keeping warm."
>
> / Singing bell bottom trousers,
> Coat of navy-blue.
> Let him climb the rigging
> Like his daddy used to do. /
> -- Bell Bottom Trousers
Funny. My parents had a Mitch Miller album with "Bell Bottom Trousers"
on it, but I don't recall that verse. :->
--
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7
J. Clarke
Jan 20, 2019, 2:14:07 PM1/20/19
to
marine are heavily bowdlerized.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jan 20, 2019, 2:41:19 PM1/20/19
to
In article <fsh94epgu08691ifu...@4ax.com>,
Making for a great subtext for adults in Popeye's "Beware Barnacle Bill":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdSdNpSp6Lc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdSdNpSp6Lc
melita...@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2019, 2:59:50 PM1/20/19
to
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-8, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> >
> > First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> > is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> > is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> > is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> > hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> > Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> > who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I require
> one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a SELF
> INSERT. That is, plenty of characters are "isn't this character awesome"
> to impressive levels. But a far more specific thing, particularly common
> in fanfic but also seen in written fiction, is "wouldn't I be awesome if
> only". The Mary Sue character is a wish-fulfillment character that is
> recognizably directly based on the author. It may be (often is) an
> IDEALIZED version of the author, but it will be the author nonetheless.
>
> Such characters don't HAVE to be absolutely terrible... but they
> usually will be.
Set in Poland.
Polish-American engineer falls asleep in the basement of a pub.
Ends up in the past, 10 years before the Mongols invade...
Conrad Stargard in the Cross-Time Engineer by Leo Frankowski.
Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
> On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> >
> > First let’s clarify definitions. A “Mary Sue” is a character the author
> > is so heavily invested in that that the focus on how great the character
> > is irritates the person using that slur and damages their enjoyment. It
> > is, of course, a subjective standard. For example 1970s science fiction
> > hero “Richard Blade” is what you’d get if you crossbred James Bond and
> > Conan the Barbarian (both of whom were ostentatiously awesome characters
> > who were the author’s fantasy projections of himself.)
>
>
> To me, that's "wish fulfillment" character. To be a Mary Sue, I require
> one more characteristic of the original Mary Sue: it must be a SELF
> INSERT. That is, plenty of characters are "isn't this character awesome"
> to impressive levels. But a far more specific thing, particularly common
> in fanfic but also seen in written fiction, is "wouldn't I be awesome if
> only". The Mary Sue character is a wish-fulfillment character that is
> recognizably directly based on the author. It may be (often is) an
> IDEALIZED version of the author, but it will be the author nonetheless.
>
> Such characters don't HAVE to be absolutely terrible... but they
> usually will be.
>
>
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
I remembered a Gary Sue character yesterday after someone asked for a story identification on the Science Fiction & Fantasy Stackexchange. How quickly can everyone identify it?
>
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Set in Poland.
Polish-American engineer falls asleep in the basement of a pub.
Ends up in the past, 10 years before the Mongols invade...
Conrad Stargard in the Cross-Time Engineer by Leo Frankowski.
Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
mcdow...@sky.com
Jan 20, 2019, 4:15:24 PM1/20/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 7:59:50 PM UTC, melita...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-8, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> > >
(Trimmed)
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-8, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> > >
>
> Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
A while ago I asked for an SF character based on - or resembling - Richard Feynman - Genius, musician, safecracker, .... and the most convincing answer I got was Trent the Uncatchable, who I found somewhat more subtly drawn than Richard Feynman (at least as recorded by Richard Feynman). Mary/Gary Sue might make for bad fiction, but there are a _lot_ of people out there, so it might not be completely unrealistic.
> Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
(I note that Feynman's behaviour towards women was borderline at the time and is probably due for a burst of general condemnation some time soon. Just to add to his other attributes, I have the impression that he got away with it - to the extent that he did - because he was attractive enough, at least to the women he came on to, that very few of them wanted to discourage his behaviour).
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 4:20:02 PM1/20/19
to
In article <q22g4o$k72$1...@dont-email.me>,
Funny thing about that. Radio in the 40s and 50s was still
firmly under the thumb of the censor.
Although during WWII, radio host Arthur Godfrey took a liking to
a song called "Der Fuehrer's Face," with the censors disapproved
of because of the repeated Bronx cheers. But Godfrey took to
playing it *every morning* till at least V-E day, and he was so
popular that he got away with it.
Walt Disney did too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn20oXFrxxg
Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
firmly under the thumb of the censor.
Although during WWII, radio host Arthur Godfrey took a liking to
a song called "Der Fuehrer's Face," with the censors disapproved
of because of the repeated Bronx cheers. But Godfrey took to
playing it *every morning* till at least V-E day, and he was so
popular that he got away with it.
Walt Disney did too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn20oXFrxxg
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 4:20:02 PM1/20/19
to
books.
"I'm leaving you some money to pay for what I've done;
Perhaps you'll have a daughter, perhaps you'll have a son.
If you have a daughter, bounce her on your knee;
If you have a son, send the bastard out to sea."
Ahasuerus
Jan 20, 2019, 4:31:15 PM1/20/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 4:15:24 PM UTC-5, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 7:59:50 PM UTC, melita...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-8, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > > On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > > > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> > > >
> (Trimmed)
> >
> > Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and
> > I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later
> > Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
>
> A while ago I asked for an SF character based on - or resembling -
> Richard Feynman - Genius, musician, safecracker, .... and the most
> convincing answer I got was Trent the Uncatchable, who I found
> somewhat more subtly drawn than Richard Feynman (at least as recorded
> by Richard Feynman). Mary/Gary Sue might make for bad fiction, but
> there are a _lot_ of people out there, so it might not be completely
> unrealistic. [snip]
> On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 7:59:50 PM UTC, melita...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:28 PM UTC-8, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > > On 1/15/19 6:59 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > > > What are some examples of "Mary Sue" characters in books?
> > > >
> (Trimmed)
> >
> > Less obvious--Trent the Uncatchable (sorry, Daniel Keys Moran!) and
> > I have my doubts about the main male characters in some of the later
> > Guy Gavriel Kay novels.
>
> A while ago I asked for an SF character based on - or resembling -
> Richard Feynman - Genius, musician, safecracker, .... and the most
> convincing answer I got was Trent the Uncatchable, who I found
> somewhat more subtly drawn than Richard Feynman (at least as recorded
> by Richard Feynman). Mary/Gary Sue might make for bad fiction, but
> there are a _lot_ of people out there, so it might not be completely
When the issue comes up, I always quote Mark Twain:
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged
to stick to possibilities; Truth isn’t."
J. Clarke
Jan 20, 2019, 4:33:58 PM1/20/19
to
worked it enough to convince himself that it was effective, then
decided that he didn't like doing it.
If his prior life had been typical of that of physics geeks,
discovering that that incredible beauty at the end of the bar _is_
within reach had to be a life-changing experience, and after getting
over the shock of it, discovering that she didn't have all that much
going for her except her appearance would have been equally
life-changing.
One can argue that he should have at some point penned a diatribe
about how horrible it is to pick up women by pushing their buttons,
but I suspect that his counter would be that nobody is forcing them to
respond to those buttons.
Funny thing is that women will go on at length about how sleazy and
reprehensible pick-up artists are and then be nasty to any guy who
isn't approaching them using that skill set.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 7:25:24 PM1/20/19
to
In article <pcp94eplns2l1sv6f...@4ax.com>,
Perhaps you could define "nasty" in the context of that last
clause?
You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
clause?
You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
J. Clarke
Jan 20, 2019, 7:38:55 PM1/20/19
to
"You're ugly, your mother dresses you funny, you don't have anything I
want, go away and leave me alone."
>You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
>that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
>other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
encounters.
Robert Carnegie
Jan 20, 2019, 9:26:08 PM1/20/19
to
but actually dumb? You might be like Terry Austin,
acting nicely socialised but secretly storing up your
vileness for later when the victim is unable to flee.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 9:45:01 PM1/20/19
to
In article <i05a4ethnat57emu4...@4ax.com>,
Yes, that's fairly nasty. Surely there are ways of responding to
a self-introduction without rude language, but leaving the fellow
with the impression that you didn't want any, thanks.
>>You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
>>that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
>>other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
>
>Approaching them in the absence of a developed skill set for such
>encounters.
Well, I am way too old for anybody with working eyeballs to
"approach" me. And looking back, I can't remember ever having a
guy with a "skill set" approach me. I'd get nasty remarks (which
I define as male people sizing me up as if I were a piece of meat
they wanted to eat) on the street (the last one, when I was in my
late thirties and wheeling two toddlers in a stroller!). But I
never got anybody displaying what he probably thought were smooth
moves. Of course, I didn't go to places where such moves were
expected.
To a random "Hi, I'm John" from a stranger, I would probably say
"Hello," in a dubious tone. If he considered that "nasty," he
was probably thinking too highly of himself to begin with.
a self-introduction without rude language, but leaving the fellow
with the impression that you didn't want any, thanks.
>>You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
>>that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
>>other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
>
>Approaching them in the absence of a developed skill set for such
>encounters.
"approach" me. And looking back, I can't remember ever having a
guy with a "skill set" approach me. I'd get nasty remarks (which
I define as male people sizing me up as if I were a piece of meat
they wanted to eat) on the street (the last one, when I was in my
late thirties and wheeling two toddlers in a stroller!). But I
never got anybody displaying what he probably thought were smooth
moves. Of course, I didn't go to places where such moves were
expected.
To a random "Hi, I'm John" from a stranger, I would probably say
"Hello," in a dubious tone. If he considered that "nasty," he
was probably thinking too highly of himself to begin with.
J. Clarke
Jan 20, 2019, 10:11:12 PM1/20/19
to
skillset that passes for being "nicely socialized".
J. Clarke
Jan 20, 2019, 10:19:26 PM1/20/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:28:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
A few of those and it's hard to blame a guy for trying to find out
what he's doing wrong. And who's going to try to help him? Someone
who makes bucks teaching someone to be a pickup artist.
that they guy they want isn't the one who can close Miss Universe,
it's the one who is damned glad to have the runt of the litter.
>But I
>never got anybody displaying what he probably thought were smooth
>moves. Of course, I didn't go to places where such moves were
>expected.
I've learned to leave when I'm getting drunk enough to try such
things. I keep friends that way.
>To a random "Hi, I'm John" from a stranger, I would probably say
>"Hello," in a dubious tone. If he considered that "nasty," he
>was probably thinking too highly of himself to begin with.
Which shows you for a decent human being.
what he's doing wrong. And who's going to try to help him? Someone
who makes bucks teaching someone to be a pickup artist.
>
>>>You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
>>>that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
>>>other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
>>
>>Approaching them in the absence of a developed skill set for such
>>encounters.
>
>Well, I am way too old for anybody with working eyeballs to
>"approach" me. And looking back, I can't remember ever having a
>guy with a "skill set" approach me. I'd get nasty remarks (which
>I define as male people sizing me up as if I were a piece of meat
>they wanted to eat) on the street (the last one, when I was in my
>late thirties and wheeling two toddlers in a stroller!).
Guy may be a jerk or may just be very very lonely. Girls don't get
>>>You might also parse "any guy who isn't approaching them using
>>>that skill set" -- do you mean is approaching them using some
>>>other skill set, or isn't approaching them at all?
>>
>>Approaching them in the absence of a developed skill set for such
>>encounters.
>
>Well, I am way too old for anybody with working eyeballs to
>"approach" me. And looking back, I can't remember ever having a
>guy with a "skill set" approach me. I'd get nasty remarks (which
>I define as male people sizing me up as if I were a piece of meat
>they wanted to eat) on the street (the last one, when I was in my
>late thirties and wheeling two toddlers in a stroller!).
that they guy they want isn't the one who can close Miss Universe,
it's the one who is damned glad to have the runt of the litter.
>But I
>never got anybody displaying what he probably thought were smooth
>moves. Of course, I didn't go to places where such moves were
>expected.
things. I keep friends that way.
>To a random "Hi, I'm John" from a stranger, I would probably say
>"Hello," in a dubious tone. If he considered that "nasty," he
>was probably thinking too highly of himself to begin with.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 11:25:02 PM1/20/19
to
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 20, 2019, 11:25:02 PM1/20/19
to
In article <o0ea4e1dh3pnmr3tk...@4ax.com>,
And, alas, it is a truth universally acknowledged, that the
proportion of nicely socialized in fandom is not 100%.
proportion of nicely socialized in fandom is not 100%.
Johnny1A
Jan 21, 2019, 12:01:49 AM1/21/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 12:15:15 AM UTC-6, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <q1ska1$aia$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >I suspect some of
> >the Greek Myths were Mary Suefic, we just don't know enough about the
> >original authors to see it.
>
> If you throw out the preconception that all of the text which we have
> is canonical gold, you can readily view book 5 of the Iliad as an
> utter Suefic.
>
> Situation: Achilles has left the Greek army in a huff, and gotten
> his mother to beg Zeus to make bad things happen to them. And do
> bad things happen to them?
>
> Nope. Instead Diomedes steps up to the plate, and wreaks such havoc
> on the battlefield that the Trojans come right out and say out loud,
> "We are more afraid of Diomedes than we ever were of Achilles!"
> He gets to use Achilles big badass intro line before Achilles does:
> "The sons of unlucky parents contend with my might." To top it all
> off, he charges the war-god Ares in a chariot driven by Athena, and
> sends Ares screaming back to Mount Olympus.
>
> The one difference here between this and modern Mary Suefic is that
> Diomedes is probably not a *self*-insert, but rather an extended piece
> of flattery from some bard to some nobleman who claimed Diomedes as
> an ancestor.
Either that, or, since we're pretty sure that the events of the _Illiad_ are based on things that really happened, with embellishment, the proto-Diomedes actually was a serious badass, and the legend grew in the retelling. Every once in a while in real life, people do things that sound like impossible fiction.
> In article <q1ska1$aia$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >I suspect some of
> >the Greek Myths were Mary Suefic, we just don't know enough about the
> >original authors to see it.
>
> If you throw out the preconception that all of the text which we have
> is canonical gold, you can readily view book 5 of the Iliad as an
> utter Suefic.
>
> Situation: Achilles has left the Greek army in a huff, and gotten
> his mother to beg Zeus to make bad things happen to them. And do
> bad things happen to them?
>
> Nope. Instead Diomedes steps up to the plate, and wreaks such havoc
> on the battlefield that the Trojans come right out and say out loud,
> "We are more afraid of Diomedes than we ever were of Achilles!"
> He gets to use Achilles big badass intro line before Achilles does:
> "The sons of unlucky parents contend with my might." To top it all
> off, he charges the war-god Ares in a chariot driven by Athena, and
> sends Ares screaming back to Mount Olympus.
>
> The one difference here between this and modern Mary Suefic is that
> Diomedes is probably not a *self*-insert, but rather an extended piece
> of flattery from some bard to some nobleman who claimed Diomedes as
> an ancestor.
Cryptoengineer
Jan 21, 2019, 12:03:45 AM1/21/19
to
Johnny1A
Jan 21, 2019, 12:05:21 AM1/21/19
to
It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and expect.
Johnny1A
Jan 21, 2019, 12:08:51 AM1/21/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 9:19:26 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:28:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
!).
>
> Guy may be a jerk or may just be very very lonely. Girls don't get
> that they guy they want isn't the one who can close Miss Universe,
> it's the one who is damned glad to have the runt of the litter.
There's an old cruel line to the effect that 90% of each sex wishes they could be with one of 10% of the other. That's an exaggeration, and an enormous oversimplification, but like many stereotypes it contains a certain amount of painful truth, esp. among young people.
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:28:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
!).
>
> Guy may be a jerk or may just be very very lonely. Girls don't get
> that they guy they want isn't the one who can close Miss Universe,
> it's the one who is damned glad to have the runt of the litter.
Default User
Jan 21, 2019, 12:28:36 AM1/21/19
to
would act friendly and let him buy drinks all night, then leave with
someone else.
Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 12:45:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <XnsA9DEAC246...@216.166.97.131>,
Heh. To the best of my knowledge, J. and I have never met, and
are never likely to, but if it were to happen, nothing would
happen. I'm seventy-six and I look it.
are never likely to, but if it were to happen, nothing would
happen. I'm seventy-six and I look it.
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:22:24 AM1/21/19
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
news:15c96cdc-ae1e-4fc2...@googlegroups.com:
That hook tasty, Bobbie? I mean, dude, it's one thing to jump at a
bare, un-baited hook, but you jump in the boat, open the tackle
box, and find a hook to swallow.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:15c96cdc-ae1e-4fc2...@googlegroups.com:
bare, un-baited hook, but you jump in the boat, open the tackle
box, and find a hook to swallow.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:23:17 AM1/21/19
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:pLny2...@kithrup.com:
Strictly speaking, the proportiona of *house* *broken* in fandom is
not 100%. (Gaming geeks are worse, though.)
news:pLny2...@kithrup.com:
not 100%. (Gaming geeks are worse, though.)
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:26:23 AM1/21/19
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:pLntI...@kithrup.com:
Some guys can't tell the difference between "no" and "I'm only
pretending to say no because I want you to work for it to prove
you're worthy" unless you literally kick them in the nuts.
(And, as a counter-counterpoint, there are a lot of women who *do*
only pretend to say "no.")
Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
on an index card would suggest.
news:pLntI...@kithrup.com:
pretending to say no because I want you to work for it to prove
you're worthy" unless you literally kick them in the nuts.
(And, as a counter-counterpoint, there are a lot of women who *do*
only pretend to say "no.")
Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
on an index card would suggest.
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:27:37 AM1/21/19
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:pLo1s...@kithrup.com:
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:29:20 AM1/21/19
to
Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
> expect.
>
Heh. Most women, regardless of looks or social skills, would have a
pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
wanna fuck?"
news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
> expect.
>
pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
wanna fuck?"
Ninapenda Jibini
Jan 21, 2019, 1:30:23 AM1/21/19
to
Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:802b4a4f-dc31-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
As the account of the typical Congressional Medal of Honor winner's
actions shows.
news:802b4a4f-dc31-4be9...@googlegroups.com:
actions shows.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 2:00:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <XnsA9DDE47886FC9...@69.16.179.42>,
Probably. But to your basic jerk (which I do not suspect J. of
being), does that matter?
being), does that matter?
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 2:05:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <XnsA9DDE4433CA0C...@69.16.179.42>,
True.
Old joke: two guys talking together in a bar.
First guy: So she turned me down.
Second guy: Aw, don't worry about it. Remember, if a woman says
"No," she means "Maybe," and if she says "Maybe," she means
"Yes."
first guy: Yeah, but what does she mean if she just says
"Phooey?"
Old joke: two guys talking together in a bar.
First guy: So she turned me down.
Second guy: Aw, don't worry about it. Remember, if a woman says
"No," she means "Maybe," and if she says "Maybe," she means
"Yes."
first guy: Yeah, but what does she mean if she just says
"Phooey?"
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 2:05:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <XnsA9DDE4C31B912...@69.16.179.42>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
>> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
>> expect.
>>
>Heh. Most women, regardless of looks or social skills, would have a
>pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
>wanna fuck?"
Somebody sounds desperate there.
>Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
>> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
>> expect.
>>
>Heh. Most women, regardless of looks or social skills, would have a
>pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
>wanna fuck?"
Leif Roar Moldskred
Jan 21, 2019, 2:30:36 AM1/21/19
to
Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
> on an index card would suggest.
>
Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>
> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
> on an index card would suggest.
>
https://xkcd.com/592/
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
David Goldfarb
Jan 21, 2019, 3:20:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <56-dndOuQpyH6NjB...@giganews.com>,
https://xkcd.com/1027/
--
David Goldfarb | "It's not called 'The Net of a Million Lies'
goldf...@gmail.com | for nothing."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
Leif Roar Moldskred <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>> on an index card would suggest.
>>
>
>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>
>https://xkcd.com/592/
And for pickup artists in particular there's this one:
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>> on an index card would suggest.
>>
>
>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>
>https://xkcd.com/592/
https://xkcd.com/1027/
--
David Goldfarb | "It's not called 'The Net of a Million Lies'
goldf...@gmail.com | for nothing."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 5:39:37 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 04:06:02 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
And yet most male fen are decent enough people.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 5:58:08 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 05:26:43 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
I suspect that if we did get together you'd be disappointed anyway--my
body just isn't up to much fun anymore of any kind that doesn't
involve sitting in a chair not moving very much.
body just isn't up to much fun anymore of any kind that doesn't
involve sitting in a chair not moving very much.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:04:44 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 06:45:28 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
When I was much younger I seemed to find myself in married women's
beds with remarkable regularity. They came after me, I didn't go
after them, and I've never figured out the why of it--I did learn
though that when someone else's wife start's making overtures my best
response is to make a polite demurral and run like Hell.
beds with remarkable regularity. They came after me, I didn't go
after them, and I've never figured out the why of it--I did learn
though that when someone else's wife start's making overtures my best
response is to make a polite demurral and run like Hell.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:12:12 AM1/21/19
to
Stalin, and Ghenghis Khan managed to find someone. And based on
interviews with high-profile German women of the '30s and '40s Hitler
even had options--Leni Riefenstahl in an interview seemed to be quite
miffed that he had _not_ tried to hit on her.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:21:34 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 06:47:38 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
This is the real problem with the "no means no" contingent. For some
(I have no statistics so won't venture "many" but I have been intimate
with more than one in this category) "no" is pro-forma, they say it
because they think they're supposed to make at least token resistance.
There are those who think that this is some kind of "game" on the part
of the woman. I've never seen any indication that it is--she's just
been programmed by her upbringing to say "no" whether she means it or
not. This makes things very confusing for men.
(I have no statistics so won't venture "many" but I have been intimate
with more than one in this category) "no" is pro-forma, they say it
because they think they're supposed to make at least token resistance.
There are those who think that this is some kind of "game" on the part
of the woman. I've never seen any indication that it is--she's just
been programmed by her upbringing to say "no" whether she means it or
not. This makes things very confusing for men.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:23:28 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 01:30:34 -0600, leif...@dimnakorr.com (Leif Roar
Moldskred) wrote:
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>> on an index card would suggest.
>>
>
>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>
>https://xkcd.com/592/
I like the mouseover on that--I'm in the process of transitioning from
Moldskred) wrote:
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>> on an index card would suggest.
>>
>
>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>
>https://xkcd.com/592/
engineering to finance, so it hits home.
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:24:13 AM1/21/19
to
J. Clarke
Jan 21, 2019, 6:28:45 AM1/21/19
to
On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 06:48:25 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <XnsA9DDE4C31B912...@69.16.179.42>,
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
>>> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
>>> expect.
>>>
>>Heh. Most women, regardless of looks or social skills, would have a
>>pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
>>wanna fuck?"
>
>Somebody sounds desperate there.
The thing is, few single heterosexual men would turn down a no-strings
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <XnsA9DDE4C31B912...@69.16.179.42>,
>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Johnny1A <johnny1...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:d129105d-511e-4934...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> It's the same with both sexes, what _works_ often isn't what
>>> people sincerely tell themselves and others they want and
>>> expect.
>>>
>>Heh. Most women, regardless of looks or social skills, would have a
>>pretty decent success rate with an opening line of "Hay, asshole,
>>wanna fuck?"
>
>Somebody sounds desperate there.
fuck. Women have trouble believing this.
Dimensional Traveler
Jan 21, 2019, 11:18:30 AM1/21/19
to
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 11:30:18 AM1/21/19
to
In article <b48b4e9otjldn9c8i...@4ax.com>,
Yes; but then most male fans aren't trying to cut a wide swath
through the female population. In fact, many of them start out
rather shy about the opposite sex.
It's been a while; but maybe some of you still remember (having
heard of) Westercon 20, summer of 1966. It was held at the
Stardust Motel in San Diego, and the hotel manager did not
understand fandom.
There were other characteristics that came under the heading of
"Someday we will look back on this and laugh," but I'm going to
mention only one aspect.
The manager thought, "Hey, a convention! Lots of guys off the
leash for the weekend, without their wives; I better bring in
some hookers." So he did.
And the hookers spent the weekend lying around the swimming pool
working on their tans, because nobody availed himself of their
services.
As Karen Anderson put it later, "Fen bring their own women."
through the female population. In fact, many of them start out
rather shy about the opposite sex.
It's been a while; but maybe some of you still remember (having
heard of) Westercon 20, summer of 1966. It was held at the
Stardust Motel in San Diego, and the hotel manager did not
understand fandom.
There were other characteristics that came under the heading of
"Someday we will look back on this and laugh," but I'm going to
mention only one aspect.
The manager thought, "Hey, a convention! Lots of guys off the
leash for the weekend, without their wives; I better bring in
some hookers." So he did.
And the hookers spent the weekend lying around the swimming pool
working on their tans, because nobody availed himself of their
services.
As Karen Anderson put it later, "Fen bring their own women."
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 11:35:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <79ab4e94d6uk9eoht...@4ax.com>,
If you're saying that both women and men should get it into their
heads that "no means no," I heartily agree.
heads that "no means no," I heartily agree.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 11:35:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <rb8b4el1ka03loiqh...@4ax.com>,
I would not be disappointed in meeting somebody whose idea of fun
is sitting in a chair, and who can carry on an interesting
conversation (and the latter has already been demonstrated.)
is sitting in a chair, and who can carry on an interesting
conversation (and the latter has already been demonstrated.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 11:40:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <pLo8y...@kithrup.com>,
David Goldfarb <goldf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <56-dndOuQpyH6NjB...@giganews.com>,
>Leif Roar Moldskred <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
>>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>>> on an index card would suggest.
>>>
>>
>>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>>
>>https://xkcd.com/592/
>
>And for pickup artists in particular there's this one:
>https://xkcd.com/1027/
Ooooh, that's a good one. I never saw that one before.
>In article <56-dndOuQpyH6NjB...@giganews.com>,
>Leif Roar Moldskred <leif...@dimnakorr.com> wrote:
>>Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps people are more complicated than any theory that will fit
>>> on an index card would suggest.
>>>
>>
>>Of course, there's a relevant XKCD:
>>
>>https://xkcd.com/592/
>
>And for pickup artists in particular there's this one:
>https://xkcd.com/1027/
Dorothy J Heydt
Jan 21, 2019, 11:45:02 AM1/21/19
to
In article <svab4eppbo063u5bc...@4ax.com>,
I believe it, provisionally: I suspect that is true of many men,
but not all.
It was on this newsgroup (I think), years ago, that somebody
claimed that lacking any other outlet, men would masturbate with
a knothole.
And I said, "Wouldn't they worry about splinters?"
And somebody said, "Middle-aged men would. Young men wouldn't."
<Christopher Fry>"Men are so strange. It's almost a surprise to
find that they speak English."</Christopher Fry>
but not all.
It was on this newsgroup (I think), years ago, that somebody
claimed that lacking any other outlet, men would masturbate with
a knothole.
And I said, "Wouldn't they worry about splinters?"
And somebody said, "Middle-aged men would. Young men wouldn't."
<Christopher Fry>"Men are so strange. It's almost a surprise to
find that they speak English."</Christopher Fry>
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