Whatever Happened to the Winged Monkeys after the Wicked Witch Died?

[mimus]

Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

--
.sigzip:*

[mimus]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:31:38 -0600, mimus wrote:

> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

Holy flying cows: from Wikipedia, damn them:

"Gayelette was furious and punished the Winged Monkeys by making them the
slaves to the Golden Cap . . . .

" . . . Eventually the cap fell into the hands of the Wicked Witch of the
West, who used the Winged Monkeys to conquer the Winkie Country, defeat
the armies of the Wizard of Oz, and capture Dorothy Gale and the Cowardly
Lion, destroying the Scarecrow and Tin Woodman in the process.

"After the witch was melted, Dorothy took the cap and used it. The first
time, she commanded the Winged Monkeys to carry her and her companions to
the Emerald City. Then she asked them to carry her home to Kansas, but
they could not, thus resulting in her wasting the cap's charm. Her third
request was to carry her and her friends over the mountain of the Hammer-
Heads.

"Dorothy finally gave the cap to Glinda, who ordered the monkeys to carry
Dorothy's companions back to their homes in Oz, and then to cease to
bother people. She then gave the Winged Monkeys the cap as their own to
free them . . . ."

I see lots of sequel material here.

--
.sigzip:*

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-01-13, mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

This is actually explained in the book, though not gone into at all in the
movie; the movie ends at about the 2/3 mark of the book, and in the book
Dorothy ventures further, into the South to meet Glinda (who is NOT the
Witch of the North). There's a magic hat and an incantation involved, and
Dorothy ties up that loose end rather neatly.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[mimus]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:58:37 -0600, David DeLaney wrote:

> On 2015-01-13, mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?
>
> This is actually explained in the book, though not gone into at all in
> the movie; the movie ends at about the 2/3 mark of the book, and in the
> book Dorothy ventures further, into the South to meet Glinda (who is NOT
> the Witch of the North). There's a magic hat and an incantation
> involved, and Dorothy ties up that loose end rather neatly.
>
> Dave

Caught that (see auto-reply).

I saw a more recent Oz flick, BTW, that wasn't bad at all, _ Return to Oz
_ (1985), but as I read the IMDB synopsis I find rather horribly it can
quite apparently be taken as Dorothy retreating from reality under
electroshock therapy, rather like _ Pan's Labyrinth _ (the retreat into
fantasy is what I'm on about there, not the "therapy").

_ Alien from LA _ () had a bit of homage there, too, but mostly of course
to to _ Journey to the Center of the Earth _ (1864).

--
.sigzip:*

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f493$54b591bf$45a0841a$12...@nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com:

Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Moriarty]

As you know Bob, none of them featured the winged monkeys. (Unless they made a cameo at one of the many parties at the ends of various books celebrating the resolution of the plot. But I don't think so.)

Baum did that a lot: introduce new characters/species into a book, often for no apparent reason, and never mention them again.

-Moriarty

[Cryptoengineer]

Moriarty <blu...@ivillage.com> wrote in
news:da96e8ad-c1dc-4d88...@googlegroups.com:

Except the first, 'The Wonderful Wizard of Oz', wherein they fill
much the same role as in the film.

pt

[Cryptoengineer]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:vaqdnTavh7WQCCjJ...@earthlink.com:

> On 2015-01-13, mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?
>
> This is actually explained in the book, though not gone into at all in
> the movie; the movie ends at about the 2/3 mark of the book, and in
> the book Dorothy ventures further, into the South to meet Glinda (who
> is NOT the Witch of the North). There's a magic hat and an incantation
> involved, and Dorothy ties up that loose end rather neatly.

The magic cap to which the monkeys are enslaved appears briefly in the
film, with one of the monkeys presenting it to the WWotW. The monkeys
must obey the wearer of the cap three times.

As David explains, Dorothy and Glinda manage to tie up that loose end.

pt

[Bill Gill]

On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).

Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and
a few by John R. Neil.

Bill

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 13 January 2015 21:31:41 UTC, mimus wrote:
> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong>

It's a long story. :-)

[Greg Goss]

And soon, by one of our residents (was that Wasp?)
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:chnmtcFcj8bU2
@mid.individual.net:

> Bill Gill <bill...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>>Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and
>>a few by John R. Neil.
>
> And soon, by one of our residents

Already written, still waiting, IIRC, on the artwork.

>(was that Wasp?)

Yes.

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 4:31:41 PM UTC-5, mimus wrote:
> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

I heard some of them got a job typing Shakespeare plays.

[mimus]

Anybody ever follow the winged monkeys after Glinda freed 'em?

Sounds like a whole series right there.

--
.sigzip:*

[Kevrob]

Those were wingless monkeys. The Flying Ones turned out the version of
"Spider-Man: Turn Out The Dark" that was in previews so long.


Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <b9f3a$54b6ca7d$45a0841a$29...@nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com>,

Dunno. But my daughter's favorite tea mug, the pale green one
labeled "DON'T MAKE ME CALL IN THE WINGED MONKEYS!", has
disappeared from her workplace. Could there be a connection?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[mimus]

BTW, let's not forget this little insight into winged-monkey wrangling:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk/
HFbiCQvuPqw/IhrvWZBSVQEJ

--
.sigzip:*

[Moriarty]

That explains _Titus Andronicus_.

-Moriarty

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b9f3a$54b6ca7d$45a0841a$29...@nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com:

Or a really *bad* Syphilis Channel movie of the week.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/14/15 12:05 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:chnmtcFcj8bU2
> @mid.individual.net:
>
>> Bill Gill <bill...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>>> Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and
>>> a few by John R. Neil.
>>
>> And soon, by one of our residents
>
> Already written, still waiting, IIRC, on the artwork.
>
>> (was that Wasp?)
>
> Yes.
>

Bob just posted some clips of the painting in progress, so things are
moving forward!

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

In the original book it was STRONGLY implied that once freed they were
going back to their old forest and STAYING there, hopefully never to be
bothered again.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/14/15 12:21 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> Bill Gill <bill...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>> Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and
>> a few by John R. Neil.
>
> And soon, by one of our residents (was that Wasp?)
>

Yes.

[Bill Gill]

There are a whole bunch of characters who show up in just one
book and then aren't heard from again. Heck, there are whole kingdoms
that appear in one book and then aren't heard from again.

Bill

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:m972al$2fc$2...@dont-email.me:

> On 1/14/15 12:05 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:chnmtcFcj8bU2
>> @mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Bill Gill <bill...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>>>> Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and
>>>> a few by John R. Neil.
>>>
>>> And soon, by one of our residents
>>
>> Already written, still waiting, IIRC, on the artwork.
>>
>>> (was that Wasp?)
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>
> Bob just posted some clips of the painting in progress, so
> things are
> moving forward!
>

Glad to hear it. I remain of the opinion that it's worth the wait.

[mimus]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:42:12 -0500, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 1/14/15 2:58 PM, mimus wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 08:19:58 -0600, Bill Gill wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>>>
>>> Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and a few by John
>>> R. Neil.
>>
>> Anybody ever follow the winged monkeys after Glinda freed 'em?
>>
>> Sounds like a whole series right there.
>
> In the original book it was STRONGLY implied that once freed they were
> going back to their old forest and STAYING there, hopefully never to be
> bothered again.

Let's at least have a war with those goddam apple-trees.

--
.sigzip:*

[%]

mimus wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 19:42:12 -0500, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> On 1/14/15 2:58 PM, mimus wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015 08:19:58 -0600, Bill Gill wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/13/2015 4:27 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Baum wrote 14 Oz books (and some short stories, IIRC).
>>>>
>>>> Plus all the others written by Ruth Plumly Thompson, and a few by
>>>> John R. Neil.
>>>
>>> Anybody ever follow the winged monkeys after Glinda freed 'em?
>>>
>>> Sounds like a whole series right there.
>>
>> In the original book it was STRONGLY implied that once freed they
>> were going back to their old forest and STAYING there, hopefully
>> never to be bothered again.
>
> Let's at least have a war with those goddam apple-trees.

i'll just take a load of those poppies

[mimus]

You'll need some-a the snow too.

--

Helps wake ya up when ya need to wake up
(cf. Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Eden).

[wheresou...@israels.wars]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 15:31:38 -0600, mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?

They crippled Russia with communism, declared war on Germany, and then
invaded Palestine claiming God gave it to them.

-.-

Benjamin H. Freedman 1961 speech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8OmxI2AYV8

[art...@yahoo.com]

Is that evidence that "Shakespeare" is actually more than one person or just that even the best writers create stinkers?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ab25ee4d-abb3-476f...@googlegroups.com>,

The latter, I think, for the following reason: the reason
Shakespeare's not-so-great plays got printed at all was that his
friends loved him, and after his death they collected all those
of his works that they could get their hands on -- good, bad, and
meh -- and got them published. When you're mourning a well-loved
friend, the critical factor is disabled.

[David Johnston]

To be fair to the monkeys, that was one of their earlier works.

[Contrarian]

what color were Dorothy's shoues really?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9i3sg$eo5$5...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,

Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/19/15 12:45 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m9i3sg$eo5$5...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Cryptoengineer
>> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>>> news:vaqdnTavh7WQCCjJ...@earthlink.com:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-01-13, mimus <mim...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Some other witch pick 'em up cheap or wot?
>>>>
>>>> This is actually explained in the book, though not gone into at all in
>>>> the movie; the movie ends at about the 2/3 mark of the book, and in
>>>> the book Dorothy ventures further, into the South to meet Glinda (who
>>>> is NOT the Witch of the North). There's a magic hat and an incantation
>>>> involved, and Dorothy ties up that loose end rather neatly.
>>>
>>> The magic cap to which the monkeys are enslaved appears briefly in the
>>> film, with one of the monkeys presenting it to the WWotW. The monkeys
>>> must obey the wearer of the cap three times.
>>
>>
>> what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
>
> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>

Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.

[Kevrob]

On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 7:08:39 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
> writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
> still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.

You also lose the symbolism of the silver shoes on the golden road, if
you buy Baum's Oz as an populist economic parable, or a satire of same.

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=504

Kevin R

(I don't know if I read all the original OZ books as a grade schooler,
but I'm sure I read at least a half dozen of them.)

[David Johnston]

On 1/19/2015 1:25 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 7:08:39 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
>> writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
>> still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.
>
> You also lose the symbolism of the silver shoes on the golden road, if
> you buy Baum's Oz as an populist economic parable, or a satire of same.

Well, that's about an issue that's a wee bit out of date anyway.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <970b0133-d575-4cf6...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 7:08:39 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
>> writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
>> still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.
>
>You also lose the symbolism of the silver shoes on the golden road, if
>you buy Baum's Oz as an populist economic parable, or a satire of same.
>
>http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=504

Heh. I've heard of that theory. Unfortunately, the machine I'm
currently using* does not know how to copy-and-paste from USENET
to the Web, or vice versa. So I remain in near-ignorance of
theories about Baum's economic theories, which is quite all
right, thanks.

_____
*Because my good one has been rootkitted, and Hal and somebody at
Malwarebytes are sending each other near-daily messages
consisting of "Okay, try running this test and send me the file
that results, and see if it will boot now," and "Ran test, here's
file, still doesn't boot."

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/19/15 3:25 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 7:08:39 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
>> writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
>> still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.
>
> You also lose the symbolism of the silver shoes on the golden road, if
> you buy Baum's Oz as an populist economic parable, or a satire of same.

I really hate that meme and try to fight it wherever I can, because
it's BS dreamed up decades after the book was published.

[David Johnston]

On 1/19/2015 4:10 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/19/15 3:25 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>> On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 7:08:39 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor) wrote:
>>
>>> Which is useful because it's a good marker as to whether someone's
>>> writing Oz based off the movie or the book. Don't use the movie; it's
>>> still in copyright and the copyrights are very much enforced.
>>
>> You also lose the symbolism of the silver shoes on the golden road, if
>> you buy Baum's Oz as an populist economic parable, or a satire of same.
>
>
> I really hate that meme and try to fight it wherever I can, because
> it's BS dreamed up decades after the book was published.

Probably after someone read the second book. You know. The one where
Scarecrow loses control of the government and loses his stuffing and has
to be stuffed with paper money, and right after that there's a "silver
pill" that will solve any problem if you swallow it and count to 17 by 2
(but it's really hard to keep down while you try to do that), and much
mock is made of the idea that women can run a country while the woman
who is in the end put in charge is better qualified because she was
raised as a boy.

Because you know, somehow that really does seem like some kind of
political satire.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Certainly the women's army was a parody of social issues at the time.
The rest, eh, there's no actual evidence for it as far as I know.

Later on, Baum simply got rid of money entirely.

[David Johnston]

What more evidence is there that the women's army was a parody of social
issues? Really it just seems kind of obvious.

>
> Later on, Baum simply got rid of money entirely.
>

I can't recall exactly why the paper money showed up seeing as how it
was worthless and hence made good Scarecrow stuffing. And once again
that seems suspiciously like wedged in social commentary.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9k85h$2tl$2...@dont-email.me>,

Yeah, Oz -- even without the weird wild- and domesticated life --
was not precisely realistic. The only law was "Behave yourselves."
Yeah.

[Moriarty]

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 11:55:28 AM UTC+11, David Johnston wrote:
> On 1/19/2015 5:40 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

<snip>

> > Later on, Baum simply got rid of money entirely.
> >
>
> I can't recall exactly why the paper money showed up seeing as how it
> was worthless and hence made good Scarecrow stuffing. And once again
> that seems suspiciously like wedged in social commentary.

In that scene the Gump had flown far enough that they were outside Oz and in "our" world where of course money exists. The money was in a bird's nest, as the bird had apparently judged it good nest material.

Now I'm drawing a blank. Is money mentioned or used anywhere *inside* Oz, in any of the 14 books? It'd probably be in the first one, if anywhere.

-Moriarty

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/19/15 7:55 PM, David Johnston wrote:

>
> I can't recall exactly why the paper money showed up seeing as how it
> was worthless and hence made good Scarecrow stuffing. And once again
> that seems suspiciously like wedged in social commentary.
>

It wasn't actually a matter of it being worthless; in fact, when
stuffed with it the Scarecrow remarked that he was a man of great worth.

The reason the money was used was that the Jackdaws had thrown all his
stuffing off the cliff that the party was currently stuck on; they
needed SOMETHING to fill him with, and since the Jackdaws' nest happened
to have, in addition to other things, a vast amount of paper money, they
used that as it was the only reasonable substitute. The nest was also
filled with gold and silver and all sorts of other things, some of which
they took with them (not because they were valuable as such, but because
they were pretty).

The money was clearly valuable, recognized as such by the party, but
more valuable as stuffing to THEM, since they had no other choices.

So in context I don't find it nearly as social-commentaryish as you
seem to find it.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

The first book makes a point that the Tin Woodman's job was cutting
wood and selling it, and that he had to prove he could support himself
AND a wife, which was why he was so industriously cutting and easily
chopped up by the Witch's spell. "...She, on her part, promised to marry
me as soon as I could earn enough money to build a better house for her..."

In the second book (the Marvelous Land of Oz) it's mentioned more than
once, with respect to the ferryman:


"When the man reached the bank Tip asked:

"Will you row us to the other side?"

"Yes, if you have money," returned the ferryman, whose face looked cross
and disagreeable.

"But I have no money," said Tip.

"None at all?" inquired the man.

"None at all," answered the boy.

"Then I'll not break my back rowing you over," said the ferryman, decidedly.


And with respect to Jinjur's intentions to conquer Oz:

"Moreover, the City glitters with beautiful gems, which might far better
be used for rings, bracelets and necklaces; and there is enough money in
the King's treasury to buy every girl in our Army a dozen new gowns. So
we intend to conquer the City and run the government to suit ourselves."

And in addition to the discussion of the Scarecrow being stuffed with
money, the Tin Woodman makes the Scarecrow his Royal Treasurer.

In the third book, Ozma of Oz, Omby Amby is promoted, but has a concern:

"Then, Omby Amby," said she, "I promote you to be Captain General of all
the armies of my kingdom, and especially to be Commander of my Body
Guard at the royal palace."

"It is very expensive to hold so many offices," said the private,
hesitating. "I have no money with which to buy uniforms."

"You shall be supplied from the royal treasury," said Ozma.


Then, abruptly, in "The Road to Oz", money's been done away with:

"Money! Money in Oz!" cried the Tin Woodman. "What a queer idea! Did you
suppose we are so vulgar as to use money here?"

"Why not?" asked the shaggy man.

"If we used money to buy things with, instead of love and kindness and
the desire to please one another, then we should be no better than the
rest of the world," declared the Tin Woodman. "Fortunately money is not
known in the Land of Oz at all. We have no rich, and no poor; for what
one wishes the others all try to give him, in order to make him happy,
and no one in all Oz cares to have more than he can use."

So in three of the first four books, money is clearly present and used
regularly in Oz. It is only in the fifth book that it is done away with
(the fourth book, Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, actually spends very
little time in Oz itself, so the topic doesn't come up. It might not
have come up in Road to Oz had the Shaggy Man not already established
that he had a particular interest, or rather DISinterest, in money.

[Contrarian]

In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:

>>what color were Dorothy's shoues really?


> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."

we have a winner!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,

Um, I thought everybody knew that.

[%]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>
>>>> what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
>>
>>
>>> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
>>> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
>>> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>>
>>
>> we have a winner!
>
> Um, I thought everybody knew that.

he knew everyone knew ,
he was just milking for replies and hooked you

[Robert Carnegie]

On Thursday, 22 January 2015 06:30:03 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
> >In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
> ><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> >>>what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
> >
> >
> >> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
> >> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
> >> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
> >
> >
> > we have a winner!
>
> Um, I thought everybody knew that.

That there was a book? Nowadays, relatively few.
Here, more than average.

That the book has different stuff from the film -
fewer. Here, maybe some people just found out today.
Although Sea Wasp has been tactfully pushing his
re-interpretations of the material, lately.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <54c09b09$0$64444$c3e8da3$b280...@news.astraweb.com>,

Oh.

/shrug

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 1/21/2015 10:19 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>
>>>> what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
>>
>>
>>> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
>>> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
>>> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>>
>>
>> we have a winner!
>
> Um, I thought everybody knew that.
>

There isn't enough room in a single human brain to remember _every_
stupid decision made by a TV or Movie studio executive.

--
Veni, vidi, snarki.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <54c13edb$0$29546$742e...@news.sonic.net>,

Very true, but hard to argue this was one of them.

(There's some sort of joke in there about Dorothy providing
the answer, but it's not quite working out for me..)
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cictoh...@mid.individual.net>,

Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
footing.

[Jim G.]

Dorothy J Heydt sent the following on 01/22/2015 at 12:45 PM:

> In article <cictoh...@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <54c13edb$0$29546$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/21/2015 10:19 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
>>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
>>>>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
>>>>>> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
>>>>>> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> we have a winner!
>>>>
>>>> Um, I thought everybody knew that.
>>>>
>>> There isn't enough room in a single human brain to remember _every_
>>> stupid decision made by a TV or Movie studio executive.
>>>
>>
>> Very true, but hard to argue this was one of them.
>>
>> (There's some sort of joke in there about Dorothy providing
>> the answer, but it's not quite working out for me..)
>
> Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
> my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
> footing.

Did you play a lot of Twister when you were growing up? :)

--
Jim G. | A fan of good reading, good writing, and fellow bookworms
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin

[§nühw¤£f]

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <54c09b09$0$64444$c3e8da3$b280...@news.astraweb.com>,
> % <per...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
>>>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>>> what color were Dorothy's shoues really?
>>>>
>>>>> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
>>>>> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
>>>>> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>>>>
>>>> we have a winner!
>>> Um, I thought everybody knew that.
>> he knew everyone knew ,
>> he was just milking for replies and hooked you
>
> Oh.
>
> /shrug
>

I always thought the Cowardly Lion was kinda hawt.
Mmmmmmmmmmm...


--
http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/index.php
www.friendsofanimals.org |www.snuhwolf.9f.com|
_____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____
/ __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\
_\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\
/___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2015-01-22 20:22:59 +0000, "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> said:

> Dorothy J Heydt sent the following on 01/22/2015 at 12:45 PM:
>> In article <cictoh...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In article <54c13edb$0$29546$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/21/2015 10:19 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>> In article <m9pvrb$lpv$4...@odin.sdf-eu.org>,
>>>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>>> In alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk Dorothy J Heydt
>>>>>> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Contrarian <ad...@freeshell.INVALID> wrote:
>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> what color were Dorothy's shoes really?

>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Originally, silver. That lasted until MGM started filming, and
>>>>>>> some executive said, "Wait a minute. We're filming this in
>>>>>>> TECHNICOLOR! You're not going to put her in GREY shoes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we have a winner!
>>>>>
>>>>> Um, I thought everybody knew that.
>>>>>
>>>> There isn't enough room in a single human brain to remember _every_
>>>> stupid decision made by a TV or Movie studio executive.
>>>
>>> Very true, but hard to argue this was one of them.
>>>
>>> (There's some sort of joke in there about Dorothy providing
>>> the answer, but it's not quite working out for me..)
>>
>> Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
>> my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
>> footing.
>
> Did you play a lot of Twister when you were growing up? :)

Not unless she had access to time travel.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Jim G.]

Kurt Busiek sent the following on 01/22/2015 at 04:15 PM:

Okay, so *now* I'll Google it...and be surprised to find out that the
game hit in '66, which is at least a decade later than I was guessing.
Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966, wasn't she? :)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9rm73$gn6$1...@news.albasani.net>,

Never. I was born in 1942, so while I disremember when Twister
came in, I'm sure I was already grown by then.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
<jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
<news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
> wasn't she? :)

Only if ‘tween’ has been stretched to include 24.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Ahasuerus]

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 6:43:07 PM UTC-5, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
> <news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
> > Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
> > wasn't she? :)
>
> Only if 'tween' has been stretched to include 24.

She was a teen if you use the vigesimal system and a tween if you use
the quadrivigesimal system! ;-)

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:50:24 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
<ahas...@email.com> wrote in
<news:18bf0e05-1e03-44f6...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 6:43:07 PM UTC-5, Brian
> M. Scott wrote:

>> On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
>> <news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:

>> [...]

>>> Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
>>> wasn't she? :)

>> Only if 'tween' has been stretched to include 24.

> She was a teen if you use the vigesimal system

A <cal>, actually, in at least one of the Maya languages.
Specifically, <cantukal>, from <can> '4' and <cal> '20'.

Making her now <lahcatuoxkal>, I think, from <lahca> '12',
<ox> '3', and <cal> '20'. Or


* * *


* *
-----
-----

> and a tween if you use the quadrivigesimal system! ;-)

[Robert Carnegie]

Adults play Twister, but maybe at parties that
you weren't invited to, or you chose not to attend.
Certainly you had other things to do.

Was Twister big like the hula hoop?

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net>,

Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Kurt Busiek sent the following on 01/22/2015 at 04:15 PM:
>> On 2015-01-22 20:22:59 +0000, "Jim G." <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> said:
>>
>>> Dorothy J Heydt sent the following on 01/22/2015 at 12:45 PM:
>>>> In article <cictoh...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Very true, but hard to argue this was one of them.
>>>>>
>>>>> (There's some sort of joke in there about Dorothy providing
>>>>> the answer, but it's not quite working out for me..)
>>>>
>>>> Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
>>>> my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
>>>> footing.
>>>
>>> Did you play a lot of Twister when you were growing up? :)
>>
>> Not unless she had access to time travel.
>
>Okay, so *now* I'll Google it...and be surprised to find out that the
>game hit in '66, which is at least a decade later than I was guessing.
>Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966, wasn't she? :)

I was 24, and a daughter of Man, not a Hobbit, and fully of age.

And what I was playing was the Society for Creative Anachronism,
which also began in that year.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <mb63qi64copq$.1webkon1...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
><jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
><news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
>rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
>> wasn't she? :)
>
>Only if ‘tween’ has been stretched to include 24.

Well, the word was invented by Tolkien to describe not-quite-
adulthood among Hobbits, who came of age at 33. But, as I said,
I'm not a Hobbit.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <1raf5srvgnud$.7gcuios5...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:50:24 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
><ahas...@email.com> wrote in
><news:18bf0e05-1e03-44f6...@googlegroups.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 6:43:07 PM UTC-5, Brian
>> M. Scott wrote:
>
>>> On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
>>> <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
>>> <news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
>>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>>> [...]
>
>>>> Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
>>>> wasn't she? :)
>
>>> Only if 'tween' has been stretched to include 24.
>
>> She was a teen if you use the vigesimal system
>
>A <cal>, actually, in at least one of the Maya languages.
>Specifically, <cantukal>, from <can> '4' and <cal> '20'.
>
>Making her now <lahcatuoxkal>, I think, from <lahca> '12',
><ox> '3', and <cal> '20'. Or
>

I'm not a Maya either!

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cc75c8ba-c402-48c7...@googlegroups.com>,

Probably wasn't invited; I was never much of a partier.

>
>Was Twister big like the hula hoop?

Damfino. I do remember when hula hoops were In -- never really
noticed Twister.

[Kevrob]

An impressive feat of ignore fu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twister_%28game%29

Twister was marketed as an all-ages game, but it featured adults,
or at least young adults.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g2eEZu_0L4

The cute brunette in the 1st 1966 commercial could have been cast
to play Gidget. My 10-year-old brain recognized it as part of the
international plot to further the spread of cooties.

Changed my mind about it a few years later.

Kevin R

[Cryptoengineer]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:nIM7w...@kithrup.com:

> In article <mb63qi64copq$.1webkon1...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 17:20:13 -0600, "Jim G."
>><jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote in
>><news:m9s0jd$3hl$5...@news.albasani.net> in
>>rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> Still, surely Dorothy was, at best, a tween in 1966,
>>> wasn't she? :)
>>
>>Only if ‘tween’ has been stretched to include 24.
>
> Well, the word was invented by Tolkien to describe not-quite-
> adulthood among Hobbits, who came of age at 33. But, as I said,
> I'm not a Hobbit.
>

As I often do when curious about the origin of a word, I turned
to the Google Ngram Viewer.

To my surprise, 'tween' appeared back at least as far as 1800,
and is more prevalent the older the source.

...of course, I then realized that its also a poetic
contraction for 'between', which poisoned the search.

'tweens', an attempt to remove the poetic usage
(though still a term of art in animation and cell
culture) takes off around 1987, though I find uses
going back to 1981.

'teenager' becomes significant in about 1939, and
has grown in usage ever since. However, I find uses
of it back in the late 1920s.



pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <a41607fe-3ddb-4894...@googlegroups.com>,

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 1:45:03 AM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <cc75c8ba-c402-48c7...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, 22 January 2015 23:30:04 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> In article <m9rm73$gn6$1...@news.albasani.net>,
>> >> Jim G. <jimg...@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

>> >> >Did you play a lot of Twister when you were growing up? :)
>> >>
>> >> Never. I was born in 1942, so while I disremember when Twister
>> >> came in, I'm sure I was already grown by then.
>> >
>> >Adults play Twister, but maybe at parties that
>> >you weren't invited to, or you chose not to attend.
>> >Certainly you had other things to do.
>>
>> Probably wasn't invited; I was never much of a partier.
>> >
>> >Was Twister big like the hula hoop?
>>
>> Damfino. I do remember when hula hoops were In -- never really
>> noticed Twister.
>
>An impressive feat of ignore fu.

Hey, I am really really good at ignoring things other people are
interested in this week, and I'm not.

[Jack Bohn]

To start another joke, then; you certainly weren't BEFORE the character in Oz!

--
-Jack

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <3a15586c-58dd-4c89...@googlegroups.com>,

No, not by forty-some years.

My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
serves was the year the first Oz book was published. I consider
it vanishingly unlikely that my aunt was named after the girl in
the book; she was probably named after some female relative one
or two generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like Dorothy. My
other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence: Flossie. My
grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet: Hattie. There was
also an Aunt Callie my mother used to talk about; she would've
been my great-aunt and I never met her. I come of a maternal
line that went in for lousy first names; I lucked out.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2015-01-23 11:24:50 -0500, Dorothy J Heydt said:

> My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
> serves was the year the first Oz book was published. I consider
> it vanishingly unlikely that my aunt was named after the girl in
> the book; she was probably named after some female relative one
> or two generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
> am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like Dorothy. My
> other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence: Flossie. My
> grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet: Hattie. There was
> also an Aunt Callie my mother used to talk about; she would've
> been my great-aunt and I never met her. I come of a maternal
> line that went in for lousy first names; I lucked out.

My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so much that she
went by her middle name, Christina, from an early age, and when she got
married dropped the "Dorothy" entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman
to Christina B. Purinton.

This hasn't been unusual in my family, actually -- my great-aunt Elsie
Nora Briley went by Nora, never Elsie, and my sister Marian's first
name isn't Marian; that's her middle name.

(The name Elsie was a fad in the late 19th century, apparently inspired
by the book _Elsie's New Relations_. An absolutely terrible book.
Aunt Nora went by Nora partly because she had too many friends named
Elsie. Hell, I had a step-grandmother named Elsie on the other side of
the family.)

Regarding your aunt Flossie, my grandmother Florence Watt went by
Florrie, rather than Flossie. Was Flossie common?



--
Now available: Tom Derringer & the Aluminum Airship
http://www.amazon.com/Derringer-Aluminum-Airship-Lawrence-Watt-Evans/dp/1619910098/

[Cryptoengineer]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in

news:nIn1L...@kithrup.com:

I have two daughters. The older is called Alice, which honors
several forebearers (some in non-English variants). Alice displays
a minor affinity for Lewis Carrol themed items.

For the younger one, I wanted Dorothy, to get both Alice in Wonderland
and Dorothy of Oz, but my wife was adamant that it was now unusable.
We wound up with Victoria, which isn't connected to any relative on
either side, but has the same air of historiocity as Alice and
Dorothy.

Curiously, Alice became quite a bit more popular a few years after
we named daughter #1, after decades of obscurity. Victoria I only later
learned was peaking when we named daughter #2.

Dorothy peaked in the 1910s, but had been building up for 30 years
before - its now almost unused.

Here's a fun tool:
http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager

pt

[Cryptoengineer]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote in news:m9u452$deo$1...@dont-email.me:

Flossie and Elsie both peaked in the late 1800s, but Elsie was
6 times as popular than Flossie at the peak (this is US data)

pt

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Thanks. My grandmother Watt was English, which may explain why she was
Florrie rather than Flossie.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:37:48 -0600, Cryptoengineer
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:XnsA42B61DDDB...@216.166.97.131> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> As I often do when curious about the origin of a word, I
> turned to the Google Ngram Viewer.

> To my surprise, 'tween' appeared back at least as far as
> 1800, and is more prevalent the older the source.

> ...of course, I then realized that its also a poetic
> contraction for 'between', which poisoned the search.

As of October 2008 the OED has an entry for it. The first
three citations:

[1941 N.Y. Herald Tribune 10 Aug. (This Week Mag.) 20/1
(heading) Beauty for tween-teens.]
1946 N.Y. Times 30 Aug. 32/8 (advt.) Model for teen-age
dresses, size 12, about 5′3″: steady. Tweens, Inc.
1964 N.Y. Times 19 May 49/2 The buyers saw outerwear,
dresses,..and many other items worn by toddlers, tots,
‘tweens’ and teen-agers. ‘Tweens’ is a term used to describe
sizes in pre-teen categories.

It also added an entry for <tweenager>, whose first three
citations are:

1949 M. M. Crunden (title) Disc adventures for tiny,
'tween and 'teen agers; a basic record list for the
Children's Record Loan Library housed in the Glen Ridge Free
Public Library, Glen Ridge, New Jersey.
1952 A. A. Macfarlan (title) New games for
'tween-agers.
1959 C. Levitan Tweenager (song) I'm just a
tweenager... Oh, I can't have a late date! Gotta get my
teeth straight!

The terms <tweenie> and <teeny> have also been used for
tweens and younger teenagers.

> 'tweens', an attempt to remove the poetic usage
> (though still a term of art in animation and cell
> culture) takes off around 1987, though I find uses
> going back to 1981.

> 'teenager' becomes significant in about 1939, and
> has grown in usage ever since. However, I find uses
> of it back in the late 1920s.

Curiously enough, the OED has no citation earlier than 1941;
however, that entry was published in 1986 and hasn’t been
fully updated.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 05:44:15 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in
<news:nIM7x...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <1raf5srvgnud$.7gcuios5...@40tude.net>,
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>On Thu, 22 Jan 2015 15:50:24 -0800 (PST), Ahasuerus
>><ahas...@email.com> wrote in
>><news:18bf0e05-1e03-44f6...@googlegroups.com>
>>in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

>>> She was a teen if you use the vigesimal system

>> A <cal>, actually, in at least one of the Maya languages.
>> Specifically, <cantukal>, from <can> '4' and <cal> '20'.

>> Making her now <lahcatuoxkal>, I think, from <lahca>
>> '12', <ox> '3', and <cal> '20'. Or

> I'm not a Maya either!

It’s Xšayārša’s (Xshaya:rsha’s) fault!

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 16:24:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:nIn1L...@kithrup.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if
> memory serves was the year the first Oz book was
> published. I consider it vanishingly unlikely that my
> aunt was named after the girl in the book; she was
> probably named after some female relative one or two
> generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
> am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like
> Dorothy. My other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence:
> Flossie. My grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet:
> Hattie. There was also an Aunt Callie my mother used to
> talk about; she would've been my great-aunt and I never
> met her. I come of a maternal line that went in for
> lousy first names; I lucked out.

Very much so: in view of those other names I’m actually
mildly surprised that you didn’t end up a Dottie.

[Greg Goss]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>>> Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
>>> my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
>>> footing.
>>
>>To start another joke, then; you certainly weren't BEFORE the character in Oz!
>
>No, not by forty-some years.
>
>My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
>serves was the year the first Oz book was published.

I was flirting with a bartender once. Her name was Brandy. I told
her she "was a fine girl." She answered that her mother loved that
song and she was named after it.

Sigh. Suddenly I felt extremely old.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2015-01-23 18:33:37 +0000, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

> On 2015-01-23 11:24:50 -0500, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>
>> My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
>> serves was the year the first Oz book was published. I consider
>> it vanishingly unlikely that my aunt was named after the girl in
>> the book; she was probably named after some female relative one
>> or two generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
>> am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like Dorothy. My
>> other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence: Flossie. My
>> grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet: Hattie. There was
>> also an Aunt Callie my mother used to talk about; she would've
>> been my great-aunt and I never met her. I come of a maternal
>> line that went in for lousy first names; I lucked out.
>
> My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so much that she
> went by her middle name, Christina, from an early age, and when she got
> married dropped the "Dorothy" entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman
> to Christina B. Purinton.

My maternal grandmother was a Dorothy, and I have two aunt named
Dorothy -- my grandmother's eldest daughter and her eldest daughter in
law.

To avoid confusion, one of my aunts was Bee and the other was Flicka.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 12:36:03 -0600, Cryptoengineer
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:XnsA42B8A3F1E...@216.166.97.131> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> I have two daughters. The older is called Alice, which
> honors several forebearers (some in non-English
> variants). Alice displays a minor affinity for Lewis
> Carrol themed items.

> For the younger one, I wanted Dorothy, to get both Alice
> in Wonderland and Dorothy of Oz, but my wife was adamant
> that it was now unusable. We wound up with Victoria,
> which isn't connected to any relative on either side, but
> has the same air of historiocity as Alice and Dorothy.

> Curiously, Alice became quite a bit more popular a few
> years after we named daughter #1, after decades of
> obscurity. Victoria I only later learned was peaking when
> we named daughter #2.

<Alice> dropped out of the top 50 in 1949 and out of the top
100 in 1957. It continued mostly downhill until around the
turn of the millennium, when it was around rank 440, give or
take a bit; it made it back into the top 200 in 2010 (at
172), and in the next three years improved to 140, 127, and
107.

<Victoria> surprised me: it ranked between 100 and 200 from
1880 through 1926, remained in the 200s through 1941, and
then increased in popularity. It broke into the top 100 in
1949, dropped out from 1958 through 1966 (but stayed in the
low 100s), got back in from 1967 through 1973, was again in
the low hundreds from 1974 through 1980 except for a 92 in
1976, and then zipped up to the top 20 from 1933 through
2000. Since then its rank has ranged from 21 to 32, mostly
running in the upper 20s. (It’s definitely the long form,
though: <Vicky> and <Vicki> peaked in the 1950s.)

> Dorothy peaked in the 1910s, but had been building up for 30 years
> before - its now almost unused.

According to social security data, <Dorothy> ranked second
among feminine names from 1920 through 1927; from 1912
through 1918 it ranked only third, and it was fourth in 1910
and 1911. It was in the top hundred through 1961; it
dropped out of the top 500 in 1993. In 2005 and 2007-2010
it wasn’t in the top 1000, but it may be staging a mild
comeback: the ranks for 2011, 2012, and 2013 are 931, 923,
and 808.

> Here's a fun tool:
> http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager

I use <http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/>.

[Anthony Nance]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> On 2015-01-23 11:24:50 -0500, Dorothy J Heydt said:
>
>> My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
>> serves was the year the first Oz book was published. I consider
>> it vanishingly unlikely that my aunt was named after the girl in
>> the book; she was probably named after some female relative one
>> or two generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
>> am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like Dorothy. My
>> other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence: Flossie. My
>> grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet: Hattie. There was
>> also an Aunt Callie my mother used to talk about; she would've
>> been my great-aunt and I never met her. I come of a maternal
>> line that went in for lousy first names; I lucked out.
>
> My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so much that she
> went by her middle name, Christina, from an early age, and when she got
> married dropped the "Dorothy" entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman
> to Christina B. Purinton.
>
> This hasn't been unusual in my family, actually -- my great-aunt Elsie
> Nora Briley went by Nora, never Elsie, and my sister Marian's first
> name isn't Marian; that's her middle name.

Yep - I've known many families where this is a common tradition.

I've also noticed that -- and this could be skewed to my
experience -- it's a little more common in people/families
with roots in the south (from the Atlantic to Texas, say).

And then there's my father-in-law, who has used his middle name
his entire life, but didn't know it was on record as his middle
name until he entered the Army.[1]

Tony
[1] Son of immigrants who didn't realize the form for his birth name
was asking for the middle name first.[2]

[2] He also didn't get the other name (the one he didn't go by) that
his parents intended. His elder cousins, who hand-delivered the
form, changed it on their way to filing it. So his parents had
intended him to be "Nicholas Romeo" (and go by "Nick", which he
does to this day), and he ended up officially documented as
"Francis Nicholas".

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 13:33:37 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<l...@sff.net> wrote in <news:m9u452$deo$1...@dont-email.me> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so
> much that she went by her middle name, Christina, from an
> early age, and when she got married dropped the "Dorothy"
> entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman to Christina B.
> Purinton.

> This hasn't been unusual in my family, actually -- my
> great-aunt Elsie Nora Briley went by Nora, never Elsie,
> and my sister Marian's first name isn't Marian; that's
> her middle name.

My mother always went by <Barbara>, though her legal name
was <Joy Barbara>; in her case, though, I believe that the
legal name was the result of an error in recording the name
when she was born.

> (The name Elsie was a fad in the late 19th century,
> apparently inspired by the book _Elsie's New Relations_.

> An absolutely terrible book. [...]

Remained in the top 50 through 1919 and in the top 100
through 1933, in fact. It’s come back a bit recently: in
2011, 2012, and 2013 it ranked 483, 395, and 365,
respectively.

> Regarding your aunt Flossie, my grandmother Florence Watt
> went by Florrie, rather than Flossie. Was Flossie
> common?

<Flossie> ranked in the 100s from 1886 through 1910, peaking
at 129 and 134 in 1891 and 1892; it dropped out of the top
1000 in 1951 and hasn’t been back since. <Florrie> never
made it above 556 (in 1892) and hasn’t been in the top 1000
since 1913.

[David Johnston]

Her mother named her after a girl who worked in a bar and spends her
life mooning over a "love 'em and leave 'em" man. And now she works in
a bar.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <m9ubgq$dgd$1...@dont-email.me>,

Hey, he was an honest man!
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2015-01-23 15:09:44 -0500, Anthony Nance said:

> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>
>> My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so much that she
>> went by her middle name, Christina, from an early age, and when she got
>> married dropped the "Dorothy" entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman
>> to Christina B. Purinton.
>>
>> This hasn't been unusual in my family, actually -- my great-aunt Elsie
>> Nora Briley went by Nora, never Elsie, and my sister Marian's first
>> name isn't Marian; that's her middle name.
>
> Yep - I've known many families where this is a common tradition.
>
> I've also noticed that -- and this could be skewed to my
> experience -- it's a little more common in people/families
> with roots in the south (from the Atlantic to Texas, say).

I've heard that, but our family is old New England stock -- until my
own generation none of us ever lived south of Pennsylvania, so far as I
know.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <1a8wlre6tvl9j.1...@40tude.net>,

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 16:24:50 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
><djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in <news:nIn1L...@kithrup.com>
>in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>[...]
>
>> My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if
>> memory serves was the year the first Oz book was
>> published. I consider it vanishingly unlikely that my
>> aunt was named after the girl in the book; she was
>> probably named after some female relative one or two
>> generations back. My mother's family did that A LOT. I
>> am lucky that I got a fairly reasonably name like
>> Dorothy. My other aunt was named Flossie. Not Florence:
>> Flossie. My grandmother's name was Hattie. Not Harriet:
>> Hattie. There was also an Aunt Callie my mother used to
>> talk about; she would've been my great-aunt and I never
>> met her. I come of a maternal line that went in for
>> lousy first names; I lucked out.
>
>Very much so: in view of those other names I’m actually
>mildly surprised that you didn’t end up a Dottie.

I got called Dottie a few times by people I didn't know well. I
asked them not to.

When you consider that "dotty" used to be slang, maybe still is,
for "stupid" or "crazy" or maybe both, you can understand my
asking them not to.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <cifma1...@mid.individual.net>,

Okay, from this I must assume that there's a song titled
"Brandy." I never encountered it, but you know me and popular
culture.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <m9uhea$4t4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On 2015-01-23 15:09:44 -0500, Anthony Nance said:
>
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> My cousin didn't think so; she hated the name Dorothy so much that she
>>> went by her middle name, Christina, from an early age, and when she got
>>> married dropped the "Dorothy" entirely -- went from Dorothy C. Bowman
>>> to Christina B. Purinton.
>>>
>>> This hasn't been unusual in my family, actually -- my great-aunt Elsie
>>> Nora Briley went by Nora, never Elsie, and my sister Marian's first
>>> name isn't Marian; that's her middle name.
>>
>> Yep - I've known many families where this is a common tradition.
>>
>> I've also noticed that -- and this could be skewed to my
>> experience -- it's a little more common in people/families
>> with roots in the south (from the Atlantic to Texas, say).
>
>I've heard that, but our family is old New England stock -- until my
>own generation none of us ever lived south of Pennsylvania, so far as I
>know.

My mother's family lived in Ohio till they moved to California in
my grandparents' generation.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:23:30 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in
<news:nInI7...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> I got called Dottie a few times by people I didn't know
> well. I asked them not to.

> When you consider that "dotty" used to be slang, maybe still is,
> for "stupid" or "crazy" or maybe both,

Not quite that strong, I think: ‘harmlessly not quite all
there’ seems closer to the mark. But yes, that was exactly
what I had in mind when I said that you were indeed very
lucky.

> you can understand my asking them not to.

Yep.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:24:31 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in
<news:nInI8...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <cifma1...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

[...]

>> I was flirting with a bartender once. Her name was
>> Brandy. I told her she "was a fine girl." She answered
>> that her mother loved that song and she was named after
>> it.

>>Sigh. Suddenly I felt extremely old.

> Okay, from this I must assume that there's a song titled
> "Brandy."

‘Brandy (Your’re a Fine Girl)’.

> I never encountered it, but you know me and popular
> culture.

I hadn’t either, but my exposure isn’t much greater than
yours. Apparently it was quite popular in 1972, when it
came out.

[Kevrob]

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 5:30:04 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <cifma1...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >>>> Kindly note I was not named after the character in Oz, but after
> >>>> my mother's eldest sister. Putting the joke on even shakier
> >>>> footing.
> >>>
> >>>To start another joke, then; you certainly weren't BEFORE the character in Oz!
> >>
> >>No, not by forty-some years.
> >>
> >>My aunt for whom I was named, was born in 1900, which if memory
> >>serves was the year the first Oz book was published.
> >
> >I was flirting with a bartender once. Her name was Brandy. I told
> >her she "was a fine girl." She answered that her mother loved that
> >song and she was named after it.
> >
> >Sigh. Suddenly I felt extremely old.
>
> Okay, from this I must assume that there's a song titled
> "Brandy." I never encountered it, but you know me and popular
> culture.

1972, band "Looking Glass." Hit #1 for a week, #12 for the year
according to Billboard.

I remember it getting a lot of airplay. I didn't even listen
exclusively to pop radio.

From Wikipedia @

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy_%28You%27re_a_Fine_Girl%29#Name_popularity_effect

[quote]
Name popularity effect

Following the song's release in 1972, "Brandy" increased in popularity as a girl's name in the United States. According to data from the Social Security Administration,[5] drawn from "Social Security card applications for births that occurred in the United States," Brandy was the 353rd most popular name in 1971, 140th in 1972, and, in 1973 (the first full year after the song's popularity), 82nd.

[/quote]

Imagine all the Elsas and Annas hitting age 18 ~ 2022.

Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

On Friday, 23 January 2015 22:30:04 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <cifma1...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >I was flirting with a bartender once. Her name was Brandy. I told
> >her she "was a fine girl." She answered that her mother loved that
> >song and she was named after it.
> >
> >Sigh. Suddenly I felt extremely old.
>
> Okay, from this I must assume that there's a song titled
> "Brandy." I never encountered it, but you know me and popular
> culture.

It's a grand old name.

Or maybe it's an old brand name.

[John F. Eldredge]

It could be worse: one of my cousins was adopted as a toddler, and the
adoptive parents took the first letter from the first name of everyone
else in the family, both kids and parents, and juggled them until they
came up with something semi-pronouncible. She ended up named Mejchal.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 1/23/15 5:51 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:24:31 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt
> <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in
> <news:nInI8...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> In article <cifma1...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> I was flirting with a bartender once. Her name was
>>> Brandy. I told her she "was a fine girl." She answered
>>> that her mother loved that song and she was named after
>>> it.
>
>>> Sigh. Suddenly I felt extremely old.
>
>> Okay, from this I must assume that there's a song titled
>> "Brandy."
>
> ‘Brandy (Your’re a Fine Girl)’.
>
>> I never encountered it, but you know me and popular
>> culture.
>
> I hadn’t either, but my exposure isn’t much greater than
> yours. Apparently it was quite popular in 1972, when it
> came out.

I know it pretty well; it's a typical "Girl in love with a man who
can't stay with her" song of the "seaman" variety, but very well
performed. A song with similar sentiments, which I performed a few
times, is "The Last Farewell".



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote in
news:cig4ce...@mid.individual.net:

Soem parents should be buried in a shallow grave with a bag of
quicklime.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

But he was always an honest man.

--
Veni, vidi, snarki.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <XnsA42B8B5DD3...@216.166.97.131>,

When was Elsie the cow (Bordens'(?) Milk) current?

--
charles

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 19:24:55 -0800, Charles Bishop
<ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote in
<news:ctbishop-96A2F0...@news.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> When was Elsie the cow (Bordens'(?) Milk) current?

She appeared in 1936 and is still around. More information
at <http://www.cremora.com/elsies_story.html>.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <m9umgm$l40$1...@dont-email.me>,

A grand song, and the most out-of-place song on the charts at the time
(In a 'how the heck did that happen?' way).
there. When he hit on the right song, Roger Whittaker could really deliver.