*Door Into Sunset*
Roberta Wilson
Hi folks! I recently finished Diane Duane's new book, Door Into
Sunset. Some of the older people on the net may remember the first two
books in the series, Door Into Fire and Door Into Shadow. It's been what
feels like my entire lifetime between those two and this one, but in a
rush of joy, I ran out and bought Sunset the first chance I got. I don't
want to give away details, but it's outstanding. Duane is almost always a
fantastic writer (though the SpaceCop series doesn't really thrill me) but
this time she has outdone herself.
Characterization, suspense, plot, you name it, Sunset has it. It is to
books what Raiders of the Lost Ark is to movies, only better. Besides
her characters, the thing that makes Duane one of my favorite authors is
the elegance of her writing. It's perfectly structured, but it manages to
keep a lot of humor and a fluidity that keeps it from seeming rigid.
Also, has anyone read her Star Trek book, The Romulan Way? Because it
seems to me that Dracon looks very similar to Rihannsu, and I was
wondering if anyone else caught the same impression. So, having read this
amazing book, the next logical question is, when do we see the next one?
After growing old waiting for this one, I'd prefer not to die before I see
Door Into Starlight. I have to get abck to work (strange concept though it
is) but I'd love to hear other responses to this book.
I may as well admit here and now that I'm in love with Hasai
Robin
--
The Spear in the Other's heart * Love is dope, not chicken soup.
Is the Spear in your own. * -Tom Robbins
You are He. *
-Surak *
Teddy Bear
I haven't read this one, but I've read the first one in the series (was that
_Door into Fire_ or _Door into Shadow_? I get them confused...) But anyway,
I found it to be one of the stranger and more interesting books I'd read in
a long time. I was quite surprised at a certain point in the first third of
the story where---
(minor spoiler...)
---the main character (-s?) turn out to have homosexual leanings. As I
recall (of course, it's been several years), it becomes a prominent theme in
the novel. I was a little bit disturbed by the prevalence--this was before
I'd read Mercedes Lackey and a few other authors, but still, the idea of a
homosexual deity strikes me a bit awkwardly.
Joel Singer *Harvey Mudd College* ( jsi...@jarthur.claremont.edu )
"Ecce Eduardus Ursus scalis nunc tump-tump-tump occipite gradus pulsante
post Christophorum Robinum descendens." -- A.A. Milne, via Alexander Lenard
Muffy Barkocy
> I'd read Mercedes Lackey and a few other authors, but still, the idea of a
> homosexual deity strikes me a bit awkwardly.
Why is this? Surely the deity is supposed to love all his/her/its
people equally?
Muffy
--
Muffy Barkocy - mu...@informix.com |~The faceless wonder of integrity/evades
OR uunet!infmx!muffy | you now/(to put it nicely)/and if I look
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm | like your problem/you look like a/broken
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.| promise to me..." - disappear fear
Andrew C. Plotkin
Sunset* (mi.. Teddy Be...@jarthur.clare (917)
> (minor spoiler...)
> ---the main character (-s?) turn out to have homosexual leanings. As I
> recall (of course, it's been several years), it becomes a prominent theme in
> the novel. I was a little bit disturbed by the prevalence--this was before
> I'd read Mercedes Lackey and a few other authors, but still, the idea of a
> homosexual deity strikes me a bit awkwardly.
A) Well, those books provide a prime opportunity to start getting over
your awkwardness. Don't worry, lots of people (including me) have had
the same sort of reaction at first.
...Um, you *do* see that the problem is yours, and not Duane's, right?
If not, you're reading the wrong book.
B) I still maintain that to call any of the characters in the "Door"
series (including the Goddess) "homosexual" or "heterosexual" is a
category error. That culture does not associate sex with gender at all.
Herewiss doesn't have "homosexual leanings", he's in love with Freelorn.
The Goddess loves everybody, which is not untypical of a deity. :-)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Chris Croughton
rwi...@MtHolyoke.edu (Roberta Wilson) writes:
> Hi folks! I recently finished Diane Duane's new book, Door Into
>Sunset. Some of the older people on the net may remember the first two
>books in the series, Door Into Fire and Door Into Shadow. It's been what
>feels like my entire lifetime between those two and this one, but in a
>rush of joy, I ran out and bought Sunset the first chance I got. I don't
>want to give away details, but it's outstanding. Duane is almost always a
>fantastic writer (though the SpaceCop series doesn't really thrill me) but
>this time she has outdone herself.
'New'? Well, it may well be where you are <g>. It's ben out in Britain
for ages (one of the few times it works that way round, and gives us a
chance to gloat <g>)... Her husband, Peter Morwood, had been calling it
"The Door Into Sometime" for so long that some people thought that *was*
the title <g>... Now all you have to do is wait for the 4th one!
Space Cops wasn't intended to be serious - you can in fact see which of
them wrote which parts of the stories. It brought in the money, and
they had fun doing it (I can just imagine Peter doing the sound effects
<g>)...
You're talking about one of my favourite writers, BTW - she's on my "get
anything as soon as it comes out" list...
>Characterization, suspense, plot, you name it, Sunset has it. It is to
>books what Raiders of the Lost Ark is to movies, only better. Besides
>her characters, the thing that makes Duane one of my favorite authors is
>the elegance of her writing. It's perfectly structured, but it manages to
>keep a lot of humor and a fluidity that keeps it from seeming rigid.
Diane is one of the few writers who can bring me to both outright
laughter, and to tears. Often within a page or so. Not a good author
to read on a British commuter train <g>.
>Also, has anyone read her Star Trek book, The Romulan Way? Because it
>seems to me that Dracon looks very similar to Rihannsu, and I was
>wondering if anyone else caught the same impression.
Rihannsu is easier to pronounce <g>. Yes, there is a similarity, and to
some of her other 'alien' languages, because thy come from the same
person...
Have you also read her other Trek books -- 'The Wounded Sky', 'My Enemy,
My Ally', 'Spock's World', and 'Doctor's Orders'? The first two
particularly are favourites of mine. The last was after A Certain
Person decreed that there were no non-humans (apart from Spock) serving
on the Enterprise, but Diane managed to get in some good aliens anyway
<g>...
>So, having read this
>amazing book, the next logical question is, when do we see the next one?
>After growing old waiting for this one, I'd prefer not to die before I see
>Door Into Starlight. I have to get abck to work (strange concept though it
>is) but I'd love to hear other responses to this book.
>
> I may as well admit here and now that I'm in love with Hasai
He's not my type (wrong gender <g>), but I do have a soft spot for
K's'tl'k - and a couple of Rihannsu...
She's writing another ST book (Next Gen, I believe)...
***********************************************************************
* ch...@keris.demon.co.uk * *
* chr...@cix.compulink.co.uk * FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life) *
* 10001...@compuserve.com * *
***********************************************************************
Teddy Bear
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 22-Jun-93 Re: *Door Into
>Sunset* (mi.. Teddy Be...@jarthur.clare (917)
>
>> (minor spoiler...)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>your awkwardness. Don't worry, lots of people (including me) have had
>the same sort of reaction at first.
>...Um, you *do* see that the problem is yours, and not Duane's, right?
>If not, you're reading the wrong book.
>B) I still maintain that to call any of the characters in the "Door"
>series (including the Goddess) "homosexual" or "heterosexual" is a
>category error. That culture does not associate sex with gender at all.
>Herewiss doesn't have "homosexual leanings", he's in love with Freelorn.
>The Goddess loves everybody, which is not untypical of a deity. :-)
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I not sure why I found it so distracting. Maybe the idea
of a homosexual (or even a sexual!) act of creating the universe, splitting
gods, and the like was a little disturbing at the time. (I really ought to
read it again. Just too rusty...) Anyway, I'm wondering why I found the
homosexuality in Diane Duane's novels disturbing, while I didn't find
Mercedes Lackey's _Magic's_ trilogy disturbing at all. Could be that I had
previously read Duane's Star Trek novels, and so had a preconception of her
style and subjects that was abruptly shattered.
Diane Duane
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---the main character (-s?) turn out to have homosexual leanings.
They're almost all bisexual. In this universe, people who
insist on being either strictly monosexual, in any direction,
or strictly heterosexual, are considered a little odd, but no
one gives them grief about it -- it's considered their
business, as long as at some point in their life they make a
reasonable effort to reproduce themselves. People in the Middle
Kingdoms might think, though, that a strictly
monosexual/heterosexual person was unnecessarily limiting their
options, and might feel a little sorry for them.
>... but still, the idea of a
>homosexual deity strikes me a bit awkwardly.
She's bisexual too. Or rather, She'll love *anybody*: She's
easy: She *made* them. D
Diane Duane / Kestrel Ridge / Avoca, Co. Wicklow, Ireland
Fidonet: 2:263/164 / Ci$: 73200,3112
Internet: ddu...@kestrel.win.net
"A little science...a little magic...a little chicken soup."
Diane Duane
> I recently finished Diane Duane's new book, Door Into
Uh (grin)...thanks for all the nice words!
>It's been what
>feels like my entire lifetime between those two and this one...
Sorry about that. Sometimes a book just takes a while to get
out, but Tom Doherty was most angelic about the long wait and
never once got on my case. I think possibly the book has
benefited from the delay.
> ... So, having read this
>amazing book, the next logical question is, when do we see the next one?
>After growing old waiting for this one, I'd prefer not to die before I see
>Door Into Starlight.
I really don't think you'll DIE before reading it. You might
get a bit older. The chapters-and-outline for STARLIGHT will be
ready late this year (there are three other novels in the
pipeline in front of it right now, including one outline, for a
book called STEALING THE ELF-KING'S ROSES, that's been waiting
about ten years for the writer to mature sufficiently. They
take precedence).
> I may as well admit here and now that I'm in love with Hasai
(chuckle) There seems to be a fair amount of this going
around. D
S. Arrowsmith
>(minor spoiler...)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---the main character (-s?) turn out to have homosexual leanings.
>
>They're almost all bisexual. In this universe, people who
>insist on being either strictly monosexual, in any direction,
>or strictly heterosexual, are considered a little odd, but no
>one gives them grief about it -- it's considered their
>business, as long as at some point in their life they make a
>reasonable effort to reproduce themselves. People in the Middle
>Kingdoms might think, though, that a strictly
>monosexual/heterosexual person was unnecessarily limiting their
>options, and might feel a little sorry for them.
>
it's clearly a super-set of heterosexuality, and mentioning both is
redundant, IMO. Just to be gratuitously picky. It's nice to have
a universe like this, with the tables turned, as it were, and it
getting through in some way to people like the one who's attribution
just got lost.
>>... but still, the idea of a
>>homosexual deity strikes me a bit awkwardly.
>
Why? Isn't a heterosexual deity just as odd?
>She's bisexual too. Or rather, She'll love *anybody*: She's
>easy: She *made* them. D
>
Hang on, unreserved love from the creator -- this isn't the Christian
God is it (-8
--
\S
SA...@phx.cam.ac.uk | "Internet is so big, so powerful and pointless that for
___ | some people it is a complete substitute for life."
\X/ | -- Andrew Brown, The Independent
Beth Friedman
ACP> characters in the "Door" series (including the
ACP> Goddess) "homosexual" or "heterosexual" is a category
ACP> error. That culture does not associate sex with
ACP> gender at all. Herewiss doesn't have "homosexual
ACP> leanings", he's in love with Freelorn. The Goddess
ACP> loves everybody, which is not untypical of a deity.
ACP> :-)
Well, I tend to agree with you, but I remember Diane telling the story (at some
Minicon, I think) of the time she was writing THE DOOR INTO FIRE and was
considering a romantic subplot with an unspecified charater. Freelorn and
Herewiss came up to her, hand in hand. "There's something we'd like to tell
you. We're gay."
* Origin: Beth's Point: Minneapolis, MN (1:282/341.5)
Diane Duane
And Chris Croughton said:
>'New'? Well, it may well be where you are <g>. It's ben out in Britain
>for ages (one of the few times it works that way round, and gives us a
>chance to gloat <g>)... Her husband, Peter Morwood, had been calling it
>"The Door Into Sometime" for so long that some people thought that *was*
>the title <g>... Now all you have to do is wait for the 4th one!
I believe the sobriquet originated somewhere in the bowels of
Tor (and frankly, why shouldn't it have -- they had only been
waiting five years for it....!). Peter did pick it up,
though. My husband likes to live dangerously. :)
>
>Space Cops wasn't intended to be serious - you can in fact see which of
>them wrote which parts of the stories. It brought in the money, and
>they had fun doing it (I can just imagine Peter doing the sound effects
><g>)...
He did. Interminably. Urg.
> ... The last was after A Certain
>Person decreed that there were no non-humans (apart from Spock) serving
>on the Enterprise, but Diane managed to get in some good aliens anyway
><g>...
>
Heh. Wait till you see what I put on the ship *this* time. He
wouldn't be able to do anything about *that*, either, were he
here (whch he's not).
>She's writing another ST book (Next Gen, I believe)...
DARK MIRROR. It's turned in and is now at Paramount being
approved. Oo, fun book, fun book, nasty!! Peter is
corrupting me. D
Chris Croughton
sa...@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith) writes:
>In article <1...@kestrel.win.net> ddu...@kestrel.win.net (Diane Duane) writes:
>>(minor spoiler...)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---the main character (-s?) turn out to have homosexual leanings.
>>
>>They're almost all bisexual. In this universe, people who
>>insist on being either strictly monosexual, in any direction,
>>or strictly heterosexual, are considered a little odd, but no
>>one gives them grief about it -- it's considered their
>>business, as long as at some point in their life they make a
>>reasonable effort to reproduce themselves. People in the Middle
>>Kingdoms might think, though, that a strictly
>>monosexual/heterosexual person was unnecessarily limiting their
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>options, and might feel a little sorry for them.
>>
>Thinking about the derivation of "monosexual", and it's usual usage,
>it's clearly a super-set of heterosexuality, and mentioning both is
>redundant, IMO. Just to be gratuitously picky. It's nice to have
>a universe like this, with the tables turned, as it were, and it
>getting through in some way to people like the one who's attribution
>just got lost.
Surely 'monosexual' means "having sexual interest in only one gender"
(the opposite of 'bisexual'), but that gender could be either the same
as or different from one's own.
'Heterosexual' means "having interest in people of the opposite gender
to oneself" (the opposite of 'homosexual').
Thus 'bisexual' subsumes both homo- and hetero-sexual, but 'monosexual'
implies one or the other.
Having just gone through that, you were right that Diane's statement was
tautological, but for the wrong reasons <g>... The people in Diane's
world would find the attitude of anyone who concentrated on only one
gender to be 'odd', whether that was the same as or different from the
person's own gender.
However, I like the "it's none of my business" attitude as well...
>Hang on, unreserved love from the creator -- this isn't the Christian
>God is it (-8
Wash your mouth out <g>! Of course not - the Christian God would never
have *physical* love with every one of his creations. The Goddess
accepts love in all of its forms - as Jubal Harshaw pointed out, "Love
is that state in which the happiness of another person is essential to
your own" [Stranger in a Strange Land, RAH]. This is exactly how the
Godess feels - the happiness and love of her creations is not only
essential to her own, it *is* her own, and the physical acts are just
one part of that.
Chris Croughton
To: "Euan Troup, ATNF Parkes Observatory, CSIRO" <EUA...@atnf.csiro.au>
I tried to send this by mail, and atnf.csiro.au bounced it with 'unknown
user', so I'm posting it (anyway, there may be more Aussies out there
<g>)...
> Hi, I have to ask when did 'Door Into Sunset' come out in the UK?
> Usually books published in the UK are also published in Australia at around the
> same time, but I've seen no sign of this book here. Could you let me know the
> publisher and ISBN so I can try and order it?
First I had to find the book - silly me, I put it in the bookcase! Who
would ever think to look there <g>?
The publishing info just says '1992' - from what I remember, it was late
last year (October?). It *should* have come out in Australia at the
same time (it has Aus$ and NZ$ on it), but I know I sent a copy to
someone in NZ a month or so after it came out because it wasn't
available there.
It was published by Corgi, ISBN 0-552-13663-8, price UKL 3.99, NZ$12.95,
Aus$ 10.95.
Transworld Publishers Ltd.
61-63 Uxbridge Road
Ealing
London W5 5SA
Transword Publishers (Australia) Pty Ltd.
15-23 Helles Avenue
Moorebank
NSW 2170
Transword Publishers (NZ) Ltd.
3 William Pickering Drive
Albany
Auckland
Thomas Galloway
>Heh. Wait till you see what I put on the ship *this* time. He
>wouldn't be able to do anything about *that*, either, were he
>here (whch he's not).
Hmm, given the lifespan of Hortas, is there any chance of an appearance of
Ensign Rock from ST:Classic as, say, Admiral Rock in ST:TNG?
Michael K. Ellis
>ready late this year (there are three other novels in the
>pipeline in front of it right now, including one outline, for a
>book called STEALING THE ELF-KING'S ROSES, that's been waiting
>about ten years for the writer to mature sufficiently. They
>take precedence).
Ooh, this sounds really neat. Any hints? :) By outline does this mean
we get the book before, or after, STARLIGHT?
>> I may as well admit here and now that I'm in love with Hasai
>(chuckle) There seems to be a fair amount of this going
>around. D
Mmph. I like Sunspark myself. Although s/he brings new meaning to the
old chestnut about 'Playing with fire.'
Slightly off the subject, but still on Diane's books, what does everyone
think is going to happen between Kit and Nita in the next Wizard book or
two? (Okay, Diane could answer this one for us, but that would spoil
the fun.) It's been interesting watching them as both 'best friends'
and as adolescents growing up to possibly discover one another. (It
also makes me wonder what Diane thinks she can do with the 'young adult'
format, although that never seemed to stop Judy Blume much.)
--
Mike Ellis
mke...@hoshi.colorado.edu
gue...@fido.colorado.edu
mkellis%neo...@uunet.uu.net
"Exceptional People -- Exceptionally Disorganized"
Michael K. Ellis
>>them wrote which parts of the stories. It brought in the money, and
>>they had fun doing it (I can just imagine Peter doing the sound effects
>><g>)...
>He did. Interminably. Urg.
How popular is Space Cops? I don't recall it being that well
promoted, and I had to look for it to find. Well worth the search of
course. And I can imagine someone sitting at the keyboard making funny
noises whilst typing madly. Try the patience of a saint...
>DARK MIRROR. It's turned in and is now at Paramount being
>approved. Oo, fun book, fun book, nasty!! Peter is
>corrupting me. D
<drool, slaver> Publication date? Or does that wait until after the
approval date?
Oh, and does the departure of A Certain Person mean there's any chance
for a return of Ael, the Rhihansu empire, or Naraht? (Or K'tl'k or
whatever her name is. Terrific character, unspellable name.)
--
Mike Ellis
mke...@hoshi.colorado.edu
mkellis%neo...@uunet.uu.net
gue...@fido.colorado.edu
Teddy Bear
>wouldn't be able to do anything about *that*, either, were he
>here (whch he's not).
>
>>She's writing another ST book (Next Gen, I believe)...
>
>DARK MIRROR. It's turned in and is now at Paramount being
>approved. Oo, fun book, fun book, nasty!! Peter is
>corrupting me. D
Fun and nasty...just the way I like 'em. And more interesting aliens? You
*did* create some of the more interesting ones, such as K't'lk and the
strange beings in _Doctor's Orders_. (I always wondered what would happen if
McCoy had the con for a change!)
Now, could you please answer just *one* question that has been bugging me for
about four years? (I'm sure you've probably been asked this before...) But,
with regards to _My Enemy, My Ally_...just what exactly does "Jim" mean in
Rihannsu? Please?
Chris Croughton
>Heh. Wait till you see what I put on the ship *this* time. He
>wouldn't be able to do anything about *that*, either, were he
>here (whch he's not).
>
>DARK MIRROR. It's turned in and is now at Paramount being
>approved. Oo, fun book, fun book, nasty!! Peter is
>corrupting me. D
Hey, perhaps you ought to suggest that they put that as the bookjacket
blurb! It would certainly be noticed <g>...
Oh, I can't wait! Well, I *can*, just, but I don't want to! What's
wrong with a little corruption now and then? Or even a *lot* of
corruption all the time <g>...
>"A little science...a little magic...a little chicken soup."
Is that one of Peter's Russian recipes? Thinking of magic huts on
chicken legs and running very fast...
Chris Croughton
t...@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Thomas Galloway) writes:
>Hmm, given the lifespan of Hortas, is there any chance of an appearance of
>Ensign Rock from ST:Classic as, say, Admiral Rock in ST:TNG?
Well, given his meteoric rise from the ranks ("Hold on, meteors don't
*rise*", I hear from the back <g>) - from Ensign to Lieutenant to Lt-Cdr
on only a few books - I think he's Commander-in Chief (Emeritus) by now
<g>...
Dani Zweig
be considered more of a problem than having sex with people who are
not of the same *species*.
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine -- Edmund Spenser
Cecilia M Tan
Dani Zweig said:
>I find it odd that having sex with people of the same gender should
>be considered more of a problem than having sex with people who are
>not of the same *species*.
I suppose it is the classic sf/f dilemma of the fact that if you just
"made it up" no one can fact check you. If you say sex with a certain
species is a certain way, assuming that only human being ever read
your books, no one of that species is going to stand up and say "but
that's not how we do it!" Whereas 50% of the human race is able to
stand up and say "But that's not how men/women do it!"
Also, with aliens, the author does not have to go out and do any
research having actual sex with them since they are only in her
imagination. Then again, the research for some of my erotic short
stories (involving humans, thanks) has been rather, um, satidfying...
-ctan :)
--
* Circlet Press -Erotic Science Fiction & Fantasy - *
* P.O. Box 15143 Coming Soon: TechnoSex: Erotica for the Cyber Age *
* Boston, MA 02215 Send SASE or e-mail for titles list! *
**-------------------> ct...@world.std.com <-------------------**
Teddy Bear
>I find it odd that having sex with people of the same gender should
>be considered more of a problem than having sex with people who are
>not of the same *species*.
That one's easy. One can imagine the non-species being to be more of a
perfect representative of one's ideal sexual/loving/life partner than any
real male or female, because they are a product of the imagination. They
can be better than real life. (I refer you to the Journal Entries of Elf
Sternberg for some sterling examples.)
Dani Zweig
>That one's easy. One can imagine the non-species being to be more of a
>perfect representative of one's ideal sexual/loving/life partner than any
I was actually asking a more simple-minded question: I'd assume that
people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
simply not a red-button topic...
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
"The death of God left the angels in a strange position."
--Internal documentation, programmer unknown
Teddy Bear
>people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
>would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
>even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
>simply not a red-button topic...
Hmmm...well, we don't need to discuss what happens in reality (after all,
this *is* a family-oriented SF group), but I can't come up with too many SF
novels or stories with cross-species sex. There's a Philip Jose Farmer story,
and some Larry Niven ("Do You Indulge in Rishathra?" -- "Sorry, you do not
have enough orifices."), but I can't think of anything else off the top of my
head. In most SF stories, the encountered aliens are either so completely
different that no mutual attraction is possible, or exactly humanlike, right
down to the DNA.
(I assume we don't need to comment on the travesty of the TV-series "V"....)
Jim Gillogly
>novels or stories with cross-species sex. There's a Philip Jose Farmer story,
There's also "The Pollinators of Eden", by John Boyd.
--
Jim Gillogly
8 Afterlithe S.R. 1993, 20:44
Dani Zweig
>I can't come up with too many SF novels or stories with cross-species sex.
I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious from context that I was referring
to the Door series. There's a problem with the Goddess or Sunspark
being the wrong *gender*?
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
Should 'anal retentive' have a hyphen?
-- unidentified passing t-shirt
Rebecca Crowley
: I can't come up with too many SF
: novels or stories with cross-species sex. There's a Philip Jose Farmer story,
: and some Larry Niven ("Do You Indulge in Rishathra?" -- "Sorry, you do not
: have enough orifices."), but I can't think of anything else off the top of my
: head.
Either you're not trying very hard, or you're not reading enough
of the right sf.
A short story entitled "Can you feel anything when I do this?"
(Sheckley? What was it, a trumped-up vacuum cleaner or something?)
Recent discussion of Octavia Butler's trilogy starting with _Dawn_.
Delany's _Stars in my pocket like grains of sand_.
Alan Dean Foster's Commonwealth books.
Piers Anthony (was this Macroscope? Some weird thing I read
a while back, included the best description of 3 gender sex
I think I've ever read. I'm including this on account of the
pseudo-astral body stuff. Far superior to the stuff in _The
Gods Themselves_).
Lord help us all, Robert Anton Wilson and whatshisname Shea,
Illuminatus series. Everything that moves fucking everything else.
Including fruit.
A truly appalling series written under a pseudonym, series name
Spaceways, some really bizarre stuff with alien hermaphrodites
(probably 2nd best 3 gender sex. It was a really weird
hermaphrodite).
Alis Rasmussen's _High Road Trilogy_ -- this one includes a specific
case of serious repercussions of sex-across-species.
There's plenty of sex between humans and relatively similar
humanoids which evolved differently on other planets -- the pair
in Busby's Demu trilogy spring to mind (also, sex between
the new breed of humans and the old version in _The Breeds of
Man_, also by Busby). Try as we might, we will probably never
successfully forget all those ST episodes in which Kirk,
presumably, beds the alien babe (he definitely kisses her).
This one's going a bit far afield, but if you allow graphic
novels, Swamp Thing and whatshername, including appropriate
drugs (sex with an elemental, or sex with a tree, depending
on your point of view).
And to go still further afield, there's a few kinky myths,
including the standard Greek Gods pretending to be everything
from a shower of gold to a bull, and ravishing maidens in the
most unlikely settings, to that weird stuff that shows up
in Amerindian tales about women and bears.
Nevertheless, Dani's comment strikes me as fundamentally right:
there is something really odd about the low-level reaction to
cross-species sex, given the strong reaction homosexual
sex incites.
Maybe I should take back that comment above; this isn't
really the "right sf" by any definition.
Isn't there an alternate sexuality faq running around? Does it
have a section on sex with aliens?
Rebecca Crowley
rcro...@zso.dec.com
standard disclaimers apply
Bronis Vidugiris
)I was actually asking a more simple-minded question: I'd assume that
)people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
)would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
)even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
)simply not a red-button topic...
As somewhat of a counterexample, I will point out that the existence
of alt.sex.bestiality on usenet (commonly confused with the
internet, though of course it isn't really) has occasionally been
a controversial topic that has hit some hot-buttons when
the 'pornography on the internet' debates hit the press from time
to time.
I suspect, though, that the religious-fundamentalist sort of
objector to homosexuality already regards SF as a work of the
devil (half a :-)), so that they simply aren't aware of it enough
to bash it (except as proof of how SF and/or fantasy corrupts the
morals of those heathens who read it, perhaps :-) (??)).
And to another large source of anti-homosexual sentiment (esp.
on the net), those who have had unpleasant or abusive experiences
with homosexuality (often as a child), I suspect the issue of
conseual alien sex or even bestality doesn't hit their hot-button.
--
"Stop or I'll scream" -- Black Bolt
Teddy Bear
[A list of Sf with cross-species sex.]
>
>A short story entitled "Can you feel anything when I do this?"
>(Sheckley? What was it, a trumped-up vacuum cleaner or something?)
>
>Recent discussion of Octavia Butler's trilogy starting with _Dawn_.
>
>Delany's _Stars in my pocket like grains of sand_.
>
>case of serious repercussions of sex-across-species.
>
>Alan Dean Foster's Commonwealth books.
I honestly can't recall any? Human-Thranx? Prod my memory, if you would be
so kind...
>Piers Anthony (was this Macroscope? Some weird thing I read
>a while back, included the best description of 3 gender sex
>I think I've ever read. I'm including this on account of the
>pseudo-astral body stuff. Far superior to the stuff in _The
>Gods Themselves_).
>
>Lord help us all, Robert Anton Wilson and whatshisname Shea,
>Illuminatus series. Everything that moves fucking everything else.
>Including fruit.
I should have thought of those two.
>A truly appalling series written under a pseudonym, series name
>Spaceways, some really bizarre stuff with alien hermaphrodites
>(probably 2nd best 3 gender sex. It was a really weird
>hermaphrodite).
God, yes. It's truly appalling, but...
>There's plenty of sex between humans and relatively similar
>humanoids which evolved differently on other planets -- the pair
>in Busby's Demu trilogy spring to mind (also, sex between
>the new breed of humans and the old version in _The Breeds of
>Man_, also by Busby). Try as we might, we will probably never
>successfully forget all those ST episodes in which Kirk,
>presumably, beds the alien babe (he definitely kisses her).
>
>This one's going a bit far afield, but if you allow graphic
>novels, Swamp Thing and whatshername, including appropriate
>drugs (sex with an elemental, or sex with a tree, depending
>on your point of view).
>
>And to go still further afield, there's a few kinky myths,
>including the standard Greek Gods pretending to be everything
>from a shower of gold to a bull, and ravishing maidens in the
>most unlikely settings, to that weird stuff that shows up
>in Amerindian tales about women and bears.
In many (but not all) of these, the cross-species sex is between a human and
a very humanoid creature (Trek being a good example.) This is explained
through parallel evolution or what-have-you. Gods and spirits, such as Zeus
(Leda and the Swan), Diane Duane's Goddess, or her Sunspark, are exempt from
normal human rules. Look at the truly horrendous notions of how "witches"
got their powers--by copulating with the devil, in human form. Hmmm.
I'm not sure what to make of all this, but I still don't recall very many
stories where a human has sex with an intelligent, non-humanoid being. You
came up with some good examples up there--I think my memory has been fried by
too much college education lately...:)
Diane Duane
>>DARK MIRROR. It's turned in and is now at Paramount being
>>approved. Oo, fun book, fun book, nasty!! Peter is
>>corrupting me. D
>
><drool, slaver> Publication date? Or does that wait until after the
>approval date?
Christmas. I think. Approval should come along shortly.
>Oh, and does the departure of A Certain Person mean there's any chance
>for a return of Ael, the Rhihansu empire, or Naraht? (Or K'tl'k or
>whatever her name is. Terrific character, unspellable name.)
Um, probably not -- but nothing to do with RA. It is simply so
*long* since the first two books in the Rihannsu group came
out that the publisher has doubts that a third one would find
its audience -- and there is also a desire at Paramount to
keep the Romulans "Romulan" and not complicate matters. (sigh)
There's no telling where K't'l'sk might turn up, of course. I
have another couple books that I'm going to be pitching to
them -- she might walk through the fringes.... D.
Diane Duane / Kestrel Ridge / Avoca, Co. Wicklow, Ireland
Fidonet: 2:263/164 / Ci$: 73200,3112
Internet: ddu...@kestrel.win.net
Diane Duane
>In article <1...@kestrel.win.net> ddu...@kestrel.win.net (Diane Duane) writes:
>(about no aliens supposedly on the Enterprise other than Spock)
>>Heh. Wait till you see what I put on the ship *this* time. He
>>wouldn't be able to do anything about *that*, either, were he
>>here (whch he's not).
And tyg remarks:
>Hmm, given the lifespan of Hortas, is there any chance of an appearance of
>Ensign Rock from ST:Classic as, say, Admiral Rock in ST:TNG?
It's not he. I thought about that: but at the time I outlined
the novel, RA was still in the loop: and though when I was
writing it he was long gone, I thought it wiser to stay with
what I had outlined. It *is*, however, someone who is not
human, and someone who is from Earth (hence not an alien).
Heh heh heh. D
Diane Duane
>>ready late this year (there are three other novels in the
>>pipeline in front of it right now, including one outline, for a
>>book called STEALING THE ELF-KING'S ROSES, that's been waiting
>>about ten years for the writer to mature sufficiently. They
>>take precedence).
And Michael K. Ellis remarks:
>Ooh, this sounds really neat. Any hints? :)
Only that it is an "urban elf" story. But one conceived ten
years ago. No: maybe I should say that it can be *mistaken*
for an urban elf story -- the same way DRAGONFLIGHT or GATE OF
IVREL can be mistaken for fantasy. It's hard SF, or hard
enough.
>By outline does this mean
>we get the book before, or after, STARLIGHT?
Depends on which one a publisher buys first, I think. The EKR
outline will be done first, but in this market, that doesn't
necessarily mean it will sell before SUNSET does.
>Slightly off the subject, but still on Diane's books, what does everyone
>think is going to happen between Kit and Nita in the next Wizard book or
>two?
A WIZARD ABROAD launches on July 22. (plug, plug, grin) D.
Dani Zweig
>It *is*, however, someone who is not
>human, and someone who is from Earth (hence not an alien).
How long do whales live?
David Goldfarb
)No: maybe I should say that it can be *mistaken*
)for an urban elf story -- the same way DRAGONFLIGHT or GATE OF
)IVREL can be mistaken for fantasy. It's hard SF, or hard
)enough.
Hmm... "Elves" who are really aliens? Say, with an allergy
to metallic iron? Poul Anderson has done at least one story along
these lines. Perhaps genetic engineering? Should be interesting, whichever.
)A WIZARD ABROAD launches on July 22. (plug, plug, grin) D.
Any indication of a release date in the US?
I'm really glad, at least, that we didn't have to wait as long
as for _High Wizardry_. I mean, the Doctor regenerated, was it twice
between his cameo there and the actual appearance of the book?
David Goldfarb | "No-one in the world ever gets what they want
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | And that is beautiful.
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | Everybody dies frustrated and sad
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu | And that is beautiful." -- TMBG
Roberta Wilson
--
The Spear in the Other's heart * Love is dope, not chicken soup.
Is the Spear in your own. * -Tom Robbins
You are He. *
-Surak *
Roberta Wilson
> In article <daniC9G...@netcom.com> da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> > I'd assume that
> >people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
> >would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
> >even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
>
> novels or stories with cross-species sex. There's a Philip Jose Farmer story,
> and some Larry Niven ("Do You Indulge in Rishathra?" -- "Sorry, you do not
> have enough orifices."), but I can't think of anything else off the top of my
> head. In most SF stories, the encountered aliens are either so completely
> different that no mutual attraction is possible, or exactly humanlike, right
> down to the DNA.
>
What about Spock? Half- human, half-Vulcan, his parents are still in love
and he himself is one of the niftiest people to come down the pike in a
month of Sundays. He was also incredibly popular and remains, to many
people, the best aspect of Star Trek.
Robin
Rebecca Crowley
: >Alan Dean Foster's Commonwealth books.
: I honestly can't recall any? Human-Thranx? Prod my memory, if you would be
: so kind...
At the end of _Orphan Star_, Flinx and the Thranx female are stuck
somewhere rather thoroughly alone, and, while nothing explicit
is depicted, some suggestions are made and, a couple pages later,
she's feeling even more ridiculous that she already was. But happier.
The conclusion, to me, seemed pretty obvious.
: In many (but not all) of these, the cross-species sex is between a human and
: a very humanoid creature (Trek being a good example.) This is explained
: through parallel evolution or what-have-you. Gods and spirits, such as Zeus
: (Leda and the Swan), Diane Duane's Goddess, or her Sunspark, are exempt from
: normal human rules. Look at the truly horrendous notions of how "witches"
: got their powers--by copulating with the devil, in human form. Hmmm.
The rationalizations, justifications, explanations you
supply are the ones typically supplied by the author. Why,
however, is this so acceptable, when homosexuality, with a long
history in reality (and with some pretty respectable participants)
is not? I am occasionally powerfully suspicious that the answer may be
that when the union is fertile, it is somehow acceptable as
"natural", whereas if the union cannot possibly be fertile it
must then be unnatural. This is, after all, one of the fundamentalist
arguments against homosexuality.
Bronis Vidugiris
)A truly appalling series written under a pseudonym, series name
)Spaceways, some really bizarre stuff with alien hermaphrodites
)(probably 2nd best 3 gender sex. It was a really weird
)hermaphrodite).
A quite memorable appalling series, actually. I'll probably be sorry I
tossed most of those books out - just as I later regretted tossing out my
E.E. Doc Smith 'Lensman' paperbacks.
Aside from some kinky S&M and bondage, this series was also was the only
one I've ever seen that pointed out that 'G-type suns just don't go nova.'
And as near as I can tell, the author is absolutely correct on this point -
only binary stars and much more massive stars either nova or supernova.
Quite an interesting point to find buried in a series like this one.
Mari J Stoddard
Pollotti's (?) Illegal Aliens features a bar with an amoebic being that
can -- accomodate -- any known species. No bar is complete without one.
--
Mari Stoddard // stod...@gas.uug.arizona.edu
--
Mari
--
Mari J. Stoddard stod...@gas.uug.arizona.edu
University of Arizona Health Sciences Library in Tucson
Tom Galloway
>Heh heh heh. D
You mean you wrote RA into the book? :-)
Teddy Bear
>Teddy Bear (jsi...@jarthur.claremont.edu) wrote:
>
>: >Alan Dean Foster's Commonwealth books.
>
>: I honestly can't recall any? Human-Thranx? Prod my memory, if you would be
>: so kind...
>
>At the end of _Orphan Star_, Flinx and the Thranx female are stuck
>somewhere rather thoroughly alone, and, while nothing explicit
>is depicted, some suggestions are made and, a couple pages later,
>she's feeling even more ridiculous that she already was. But happier.
>The conclusion, to me, seemed pretty obvious.
I remembered that, but discounted it, because I originally ran across that
trilogy marketed as "young adult SF/adventure" when I was 13 or so. Good
series, with a bit of that in it. I remember the thranx/human spaceship-
fighting scenes, which was a close mental coupling in itself.
>The rationalizations, justifications, explanations you
>supply are the ones typically supplied by the author.
Admitted freely.
>Why, however, is this so acceptable, when homosexuality, with a long
>history in reality (and with some pretty respectable participants)
>is not? I am occasionally powerfully suspicious that the answer may be
>that when the union is fertile, it is somehow acceptable as
>"natural", whereas if the union cannot possibly be fertile it
>must then be unnatural. This is, after all, one of the fundamentalist
>arguments against homosexuality.
Well, the acts seem to be acceptable if the two humanoids are of roughly male
and female genders, whether or not the union is fertile (DNA-speaking, not
hardly). This could be due to the fact that most SF and fantasy was written
from a male point of view, up until ten or fifteen years ago. I suspect that
if we look, we'll find a lot of human male/alien female in older SF, but more
human female/alien male in recent SF. I don't know how much homosexual SF
there is, with human male/alien male or human female/alien female, but I'd be
interested in looking at some. (IF it was well-written SF, of course...)
Of course, this could be due to publishing industry standards on sexual
situations as well. Again, it is fairly recent that homosexual relationships
could be depicted in mainstream novels. Is SF ahead of the times, or behind
it in including this aspect of life? (_China Mountain Zhang_ rears its head!)
Dani Zweig
meets up with a robot who loves him carnally...semi-carnally.
Does that count?
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
A B C D E F G...
Euan Troup
Cyril Connoly?
There's also the sex-for-answers machine in Zelazny's 'Creatures of Light and
Darkness'.
--
Euan Troup, etr...@atnf.csiro.au Australia Telescope, Parkes Observatory.
..mostly harmless.
Chris Croughton
>Um, probably not -- but nothing to do with RA. It is simply so
>*long* since the first two books in the Rihannsu group came
>out that the publisher has doubts that a third one would find
>its audience -- and there is also a desire at Paramount to
>keep the Romulans "Romulan" and not complicate matters. (sigh)
Well, since those publishers seem blissfully unaware of what the readers
*actually* want - my vote is for more Rihannsu, more 'aliens'...
BTW, when other authors have used the Rihannsu (Diane Carey, for one -
someone else has as well) did they consult you on behaviour etc.? I
assume that (out of politeness if nothing else) they asked your
permission to use them, at least. I do rather like it when in a 'shared
universe' like ST authors use other people's characters - it seems to
make it more 'real'...
>There's no telling where K't'l'sk might turn up, of course. I
Er, in my copy of Spock's World that's K's't'lk (and I still can't
pronounce it!) - has she changed her name again <g>?
"... would you particularly mind if I had a quick look at your warp
engines while I was here? There are some minor adjustments..."
Superb - one of my favourite characters...
>have another couple books that I'm going to be pitching to
>them -- she might walk through the fringes.... D.
Ooh, books with fringes! (See other parts of this thread about kinky
sex with aliens <g>)...
Garrett Wollman
>In article <1...@kestrel.win.net> ddu...@kestrel.win.net (Diane Duane) writes:
> Hmm... "Elves" who are really aliens? Say, with an allergy
>to metallic iron? Poul Anderson has done at least one story along
>these lines. Perhaps genetic engineering? Should be interesting, whichever.
And let's not forget Julian May... (With the interesting twist that
the folkloric ``elves'' in human mythology really /are/ said
aliens...)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ...
wol...@emba.uvm.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
uvm-gen!wollman | It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people
UVM disagrees. | who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant
Pretty Vacant
How about Octavia Butler's _Dawn_. An alien species with three genders
save humanity after nuclear holocaust. The price? Interbreeding. Very
interesting. Sex scene between human male, female and the "it" (third
gender) of the aliens. No physical contact betwwen the humans. Nerves
bridged by the alien.
jim
--
Jim, jmm...@netcom.com
gt7...@prism.gatech.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyman His Own Wife, | Do you still see me?
or | Do you still hear me?
A Honeymoon in the Hand." | Do you still need me?
--Buck Mulligan, James Joyce's | -Miki Berenyi of lush
_Ulysses_ | from "stray" on _Spooky_
C. Douglas Baker
>
>
>How about Octavia Butler's _Dawn_. An alien species with three genders
>save humanity after nuclear holocaust. The price? Interbreeding. Very
>interesting. Sex scene between human male, female and the "it" (third
>gender) of the aliens. No physical contact betwwen the humans. Nerves
>bridged by the alien.
>
Actually it's really "cross-breeding" because thier is no direct interchange
of genetic material. The aliens (Oankali) have to genetically manipulate
the two species genes to "cross-breed".
Doug Baker
cba...@wam.umd.edu
Pretty Vacant
>>How about Octavia Butler's _Dawn_. An alien species with three genders
>>save humanity after nuclear holocaust. The price? Interbreeding. Very
>>interesting. Sex scene between human male, female and the "it" (third
>>gender) of the aliens. No physical contact betwwen the humans. Nerves
>>bridged by the alien.
>>
>Actually it's really "cross-breeding" because thier is no direct interchange
>of genetic material. The aliens (Oankali) have to genetically manipulate
>the two species genes to "cross-breed".
Thanks Doug. I mixed up words again. :)
Courtenay Footman
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman I finally got back on the net.
c...@alchemy.ithaca.ny.us Now I will never get anything done
Diane Duane
In article <daniC9J...@netcom.com>, Dani Zweig
(da...@netcom.com) writes to:
(*grin*)
Not THAT long.
This hint I will give. Rick Sternbach, who is an old friend,
states in the ST:TNG Tech Manual that Starfleet's Navigations
Research team consists of an Orca supervising a number of
bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops truncatus). You may imagine
what I did with *that*.
PS: the member of Tursiops in question has a chat with Riker
about something called "the Song of the Twelve".
(grin)
I'm a BAAAAAAAAAAAAD girl. D
Diane Duane
(urg)
It is probably only in this community that I can safely say
that RA is the proximate cause of this book being written at
all. Peter and I sat down over a pizza and discussed at
length how a Trek book could still be written that would (a) not
violate my own sense of how a Trek book should be written and
(b) still pass through RA's office. DARK MIRROR is the result.
(I think people will like it regardless. <g>) D.
Diane Duane
In article <2111sq$5...@agate.berkeley.edu>, David Goldfarb (gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu) writes:
> Hmm... "Elves" who are really aliens? Say, with an allergy
>to metallic iron? Poul Anderson has done at least one story along
>these lines. Perhaps genetic engineering? Should be interesting, whichever.
I know that story and it made an impression on me, but it's
otherwise unaffiliated with ELF-KING'S ROSES. In this Los
Angeles (an alternate one, about four over from our own),
the Elves' home universe is the only source of "fairy gold",
an allotrope of Au and a room-temperature superconductor.
Other details....no, you'll have to wait.
>)A WIZARD ABROAD launches on July 22. (plug, plug, grin) D.
>
> Any indication of a release date in the US?
Alas, no. Delacorte dropped the books before Christmas of last
year for reasons that had to do with the downsizing of their
YA line after union with Doubleday. More than this I know
not.
The UK ISBN is 0552 527440. Talk to your local friendly book
importer.
> I'm really glad, at least, that we didn't have to wait as long
>as for _High Wizardry_. I mean, the Doctor regenerated, was it twice
>between his cameo there and the actual appearance of the book?
Cripes, at *least* twice. But I'm glad people notice these
things. As long as they don't mention them to the Beeb....
Book Five will be called THE CATS OF GRAND CENTRAL and involves
the cat-wizards who do maintenance on the worldgates there.
(Cats can *see* string structure, you see, and so... No, never
mind.) D
Nancy Lebovitz
>>That one's easy. One can imagine the non-species being to be more of a
>>perfect representative of one's ideal sexual/loving/life partner than any
>>real male or female, because they are a product of the imagination....
>
>I was actually asking a more simple-minded question: I'd assume that
>people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
>would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
>even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
My guess is that people don't get angry about cross-species sex
because it isn't currantly feasible. If it were, I bet that there'd
be a fair amount of prejudice against it.
--
Nancy Lebovitz calligraphic button catalogue available by email (170K)
na...@genie.slhs.udel.edu
Unshaved Heart
|>
|> In article <C9K4r...@HQ.Ileaf.COM>, Tom Galloway (t...@HQ.Ileaf.COM)
writes:
|> (urg)
|> It is probably only in this community that I can safely say
|> that RA is the proximate cause of this book being written at
|> all. Peter and I sat down over a pizza and discussed at
|> length how a Trek book could still be written that would (a) not
|> violate my own sense of how a Trek book should be written and
|> (b) still pass through RA's office. DARK MIRROR is the result.
|> (I think people will like it regardless. <g>) D.
I suppose I could cross post this to the r.a.s groups, but I
don't want 1000 emails in my box! ;-)
I came into this thread a bit late. It would appear that this book
has at least one book before it that I should read first. Is this true?
Which is "Dark Mirror", and which is "Door into Sunset"? Or am I
hopelessly confused?
I would like to read the book when it comes out; I am always looking
for *good* Trek books. Problem is, you can pratically count them on
one hand, and there are *a lot* of Trek books out there. I have found
that I generally like PAD's books, and if he and you were talking over
pizza at some point, perhaps I should look into your work too! 8-)
I have heard that your books are of high quality; problem is, they
never appear in used book stores. Of course, now I see a causal
connection-- no one ever sells them back!
--
* Phil Plait pc...@virginia.edu
* Baby Member (by 1.83 years), STOFF
* "To escape from our own island, we must each metaphorically
* kill our own Gilligan..."
David Zink
>In article <daniC9G...@netcom.com> da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>>jsi...@jarthur.claremont.edu (Teddy Bear):
>>>That one's easy. One can imagine the non-species being to be more of a
>>>perfect representative of one's ideal sexual/loving/life partner than any
>>>real male or female, because they are a product of the imagination....
>>
>>I was actually asking a more simple-minded question: I'd assume that
>>people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
>>would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
>>even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
>>simply not a red-button topic...
>
>My guess is that people don't get angry about cross-species sex
>because it isn't currantly feasible. If it were, I bet that there'd
>be a fair amount of prejudice against it.
I wouldn't call cross-species sex unfeasible, or even unenjoyable,
though miscegnation generally implies a deeper interpersonal
relationship than mere sex. There are certainly societies not too far
removed from the generic european in which interspecies sex is frowned
on less than homosexuality, and others in which it is frowned on more.
If you think homosexuals are in the closet, try to find outed dog-lovers.
Join the Bestiality Pride parade!
Cross species sex in fiction is usually faithful to the male-female
dichotomy, and as such the alien is seen as being `sort of like' a woman
or `sort of like' a man, and it all fits in with the usual het
obsessions.
Lascivious scenes like the opening of EASY TRAVEL TO OTHER PLANETS (with
woman and dolphin) are usually interpreted in a manner similar to
lesbian or dildo scenes by men, and as an outrageous sensual fantasy by
women.
I think there is an undercurrent of sexual adventurism that lends spice
to most extra-species sex. And most people who will even encounter ET
sex, homophobic or not, are imaginative enough to identify the ET with a
member of the appropriate sex (somehow improved or debased). I think
most hick preachers (and the pope) will be quite willing to preach
against sex with ETs, I just don't think the literature has been pointed
out to them. They will also be happy to preach against bestiality, but
once again, I don't think too much of that comes to their attention.
Get caught going down on your wolfhound in a small town and see what
the preacher has to say.
Actually, I've noticed that homo gang rape scenes in prison novels don't
engender the same sort of moral response as erotic homosexuality, any
sort of tender, sensitive, mutually satisfying homosexuality. After
all, the rapist (not neccessarily `gay' despite his choice of targets)
is merely exercising his strength bestowed right to stick his penis in an
unwilling receptacle. Since no women were available, and since a man
has *got* to get some, . . . . I think the threat in loving
homosexuality is the ambiguity of roles--most 'phobes persist in a
boy-boy and girl-boy, macho and queen, model of homosexuality, and as
the two roles approach identity they feel uncomfortable being slid into
the girl-boy role. They can no more handle this than they would
identify with a woman they were watching masturbate: inevitably they
choose to imagine that it is their body that is giving her pleasure.
Should the Bad Guy (assuming he is not at all limp-wristed, but rather,
for example, the barrel chested ex-quarterback company president) force
our hero to give him fellatio, the phobic reader is more likely to think
of Our Hero as somewhat of a faggot for not having resisted harder (a
fate worse than death, after all) than to pass the same judgement on the
Bad Guy. Certainly homosexual sex as an expression of someone's
complete domination of another is much more acceptable than sex for
pleasure.
I suppose het sex is much the same way.
They might be just aversive to tender, sensitive, mutually satisfying sex,
since the two aversions seem to go hand in hand.
To address the question dead-on, I think anti-homosexuality is motivated
by concerns distinct from those of anti-bestiality and its derivative
anti-extra-terrestial-sexuality. The Jewish and Christian Religions
will equate them because none can result in progeny, but the no-progeny
distinction is too cerebral to motivate the kind of knee-jerk homophobia
with which we are all familiar(*). PCers should be anti-bestiality without
being anti-homosexuality or anti-extra-terrestial-sexuality because of
the issue of consensuality. Homophobes capable of enjoying reading
about aliens will enjoy reading about sex with aliens, as long as the
men don't look too unmanly, and the aliens look pretty womanly, or
vice-versa. Bestialityphobes are harder to judge since they are less
visible: there is a lot less bestiality for them to react against.
Just my AO.
-- David
* Imagine your loving, beautiful and very Jewish or very Catholic wife
bears you thirteen kids by the time she's twenty-five. Then her uterus
falls out. Will the community rail against you night and day for
continuing to have normal sexual relations with her? I think not. But
in the eyes of religion, she is no better than a dog.
Chris Croughton
pc...@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU (Unshaved Heart) writes:
>I came into this thread a bit late. It would appear that this book
>has at least one book before it that I should read first. Is this true?
>Which is "Dark Mirror", and which is "Door into Sunset"? Or am I
>hopelessly confused?
You're hopelessly confused, but don't let it get you down! We were all
in that state once - some of us still are, and some have gone back to it
after finding that being confused wa much more interesting that *not*
being confused, or being not confused...
Followups to alt.weird.philosophy...
Door Into Sunset is the sequel to the other Door books (Fire and
Shadow). The next (and last?) one will be Door Into Starlight.
The Star Trek series is (in order of publication):
The Wounded Sky
My Enemy, My Ally
The Romulan Way (with Peter Morwood)
Spock's World
Doctors Orders
These are all original series. The one currently under discussion is
Diane's new Next Generation novel, Dark Mirror.
There are other high quality Trek books out there - some examples (your
milage may vary <g>):
Uhura's Song - Janet Kagan
Final Frontier - Diane Carey (*not* the book of ST-V!)
How Much For Just The Planet - John Ford
The Final Reflection - John Ford
Just from memory - I know there are others that I enjoy, but at
11:50pm...
Diane Duane
Diane Duane
Diane Duane
Mary L. Johnson
> I was actually asking a more simple-minded question: I'd assume that
> people who consider homosexuality to be wrong (as opposed to "no fun")
> would consider miscegenation across species (or phyllum) lines to be
> even more so -- but this objection is rarely raised. Perhaps it's
> simply not a red-button topic...
Didn't James Tiptree Jr. (Alice Sheldon) write an essay on this
topic called "Effing the Ineffable"? I think it might have
been a talk ... don't have a copy that I know of.
-- Dr. Mary L. Johnson
mjoh...@alumni.caltech.edu
Teddy Bear
>>sex with aliens <g>)...
>
>Tzitzi*m*, I should have said. Tzitzim. Tzitzim.
Bottle-nosed dolphins who have converted to Orthodox Judaism? Oh, my...
Joel Singer *Harvey Mudd College* ( jsi...@jarthur.claremont.edu )
"Ecce Eduardus Ursus scalis nunc tump-tump-tump occipite gradus pulsante
post Christophorum Robinum descendens." -- A.A. Milne, via Alexander Lenard
(--Still wondering what "Jim" translates to in Rihannsu...:)
Evan Kirshenbaum
>a while back, included the best description of 3 gender sex
>I think I've ever read. I'm including this on account of the
>pseudo-astral body stuff. Far superior to the stuff in _The
>Gods Themselves_).
I'm pretty sure this was _Chaining the Lady_ (the sequel to
_Cluster_).
Off the top of my head,
Harlan Ellison's "How's the Night Life on Cissalda?" ("They found him
doing a disgusting thing with a disgusting thing.")
_I, Weapon_ by (damn! The name "Runyon" is sticking in my mind, but
it's not Damon. Maybe Charles?). The entire book revolves around
inter-species cross-breeding.
John Varley's _Wizard_ (and probably _Titan_ and _Demon_, although I
can't remember any specific scenes) with humans and centaurs.
Jack Chalker's _Well of Souls_ books. (Like Anthony's _Cluster_
books, the bodies involved were (always?) of the same species, but the
people behind them weren't). Probably other Chalker, as well.
Robert Silverberg's _Tower of Glass_ (humans and androids) and _Son of
Man_.
I don't think there's any actual sex, but David Brin's _Startide
Rising_ had at least one dolphin who had the hots for one of the
human women.
Others which may qualify (my mind is going, and I can't remember if
there was any actual sex) include
= C.S. Friedman's _The Madness Season_
= Alan Dean Foster's _Quozl_ (and _Spellsinger_?)
= Steven Brust's _Jhereg_ series
= Silverberg's _Lord Valentine's Castle_
>Nevertheless, Dani's comment strikes me as fundamentally right:
>there is something really odd about the low-level reaction to
>cross-species sex, given the strong reaction homosexual
>sex incites.
That's probably because most cross-species sex in SF is between
humanoids of opposite (or at least different) genders, and readers see
the different species as "allegories for different nations" and/or
"people in costumes", so they fall into the "people" category for the
average reader, and merely cross the miscegenation taboo, which isn't
very strong these days.
More people probably have trouble with species like Quozl or Titanides
or the animals in _Spellsinger_, which are closer to animals and raise
the beastiality taboo, but the intelligence of the species mitigate
that. With same-gender pairings, however, it's hard for those with a
strong homosexuality taboo to rationalize away.
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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Bonita Kale
Keeping the thread name so as not to miss the Duane fans, here's a useful
address:
Books Britain, Inc.
245 W. 104th St.
New York NY 10025-4280
Phone: (212)749-4713
The man there said he'd check the price of _A Wizard Abroad_. Assuming I
can afford it, I'll then send him a check and he'll order it. Yay!
Repeating (correctly, I hope) the ISBN no. that Diane Duane posted:
0552 527440
By the way, he never heard of Internet and wants to know about it. This
isn't the standard group for such questions, but is anyone there from New
York who knows if you can get on from there? Where I am (Cleveland) you
don't need university connections, but I don't know how it is in NYC.
E-mail me if you have some info to pass on (or mail it to Books Britain, I
guess).
He sounds awfully nice. (I grew up on Long Island, and I'm still a sucker
for a New York accent.)
Bonita Kale
Dawn Friedman
>otherwise unaffiliated with ELF-KING'S ROSES. In this Los
>Angeles (an alternate one, about four over from our own),
>the Elves' home universe is the only source of "fairy gold",
>an allotrope of Au and a room-temperature superconductor.
I've always found good, deranged science to be a good sign when looking over
a new fantasy -- e.g. Pratchett. Not true, unfortunately, in the case of SF.
--Dawn
--
frie...@husc.harvard.edu *** "Shouldn't I have all of this?"
Bob Alberti
:
: How about Octavia Butler's _Dawn_. An alien species with three genders
: save humanity after nuclear holocaust. The price? Interbreeding. Very
: interesting. Sex scene between human male, female and the "it" (third
: gender) of the aliens. No physical contact betwwen the humans. Nerves
: bridged by the alien.
And then there's Captain Kirk's favorite pick-up line,
"Hey there, gorgeous, does your species have any moist sphincters?"