Hugo Outrage!

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James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 11:20:48 AM3/5/04
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I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.

Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.

James Nicoll
--
"Unless there are slaves to do the ugly, horrible, uninteresting work, culture
and contemplation become almost impossible. Human slavery is wrong, insecure,
and demoralizing. On mechanical slavery, on the slavery of the machine, the
future of the world depends." -Oscar Wilde, "The Soul of Man Under Socialism"

lal_truckee

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Mar 5, 2004, 12:42:54 PM3/5/04
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James Nicoll wrote:

> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.

Aginst "Blue Champagne?" Gack! That couldn't happen! Is there a re-count
proceedure we could invoke?

James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 12:35:15 PM3/5/04
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In article <c2ad24$1rlfc8$1...@ID-90251.news.uni-berlin.de>,

lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
>> Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>
>Aginst "Blue Champagne?" Gack! That couldn't happen! Is there a re-count
>proceedure we could invoke?
>
I'd building a time machine but I keep getting distr-

Oooo! Shiney!

Ignoring the post-2000 era, which is too recent to discuss (imo)[1]
TSG's victory has to rank as one of the worse misjustices in Hugo history.

James Nicoll

1: Secret ant talk for 'No, I don't want to rehash the HP debate -again-.'

David Bilek

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Mar 5, 2004, 1:01:07 PM3/5/04
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On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>
> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>

What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.

Freaking locals.

-David

James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 1:16:31 PM3/5/04
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In article <k1gh401sek2ejoq7v...@4ax.com>,
Damn, I was hoping to avoid this.

Canadians are cheap. Worldcons are expensive. Torcon3 had
fewer locals as a fraction of the crowd than other Noramian
Worldcons, despite the fact that something like 20 million CDNs
live within a day's drive of TO. If Sawyer got the Hugo purely due
to locals, then the more numerous visitors must have refrained from
voting against him for some reason.

Sawyer may enjoy a disproportionate support amongst Canadians
due to nationalism but I can assure you that sort of thing stops well
short of actually spending more than 10 bucks (Maybe 40 if the book is
mentioned on Space, TVO or the CBC). Much as you may not want to hear
this, Americans must have voted for Hominids or at least not been arsed
enough to vote against it.

D.F. Manno

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Mar 5, 2004, 1:45:22 PM3/5/04
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In article <c2ad24$1rlfc8$1...@ID-90251.news.uni-berlin.de>,
lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> James Nicoll wrote:
>
> > I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> > Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>
> Aginst "Blue Champagne?" Gack! That couldn't happen! Is there a re-count
> proceedure we could invoke?

Paging Katherine Harris!
--
D.F. Manno
domm...@netscape.net
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin)

Mike Schilling

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:05:14 PM3/5/04
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"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c2adoj$lv0$1...@panix1.panix.com...

>
>
> 1: Secret ant talk for 'No, I don't want to rehash the HP debate -again-.'

Rowling should never have bought Compaq, even if she did have the cash.


Glenn Dowdy

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:18:34 PM3/5/04
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"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Kb42c.6323$ng....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
Now _that's_ funny.

Glenn D., back at HP.


David Dyer-Bennet

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:17:57 PM3/5/04
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David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> writes:

I'm still pissed off that LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_ beat out _The
Mote in God's Eye_. More than 20 years ago. And that _Downbelow
Station_ won; and I don't even remember what it was up against. Heck,
I'm angry it was even *nominated*. You guys have no taste :-).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:27:31 PM3/5/04
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In article <m2k71zn...@gw.dd-b.net>,

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>I'm still pissed off that LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_ beat out _The
>Mote in God's Eye_. More than 20 years ago. And that _Downbelow
>Station_ won; and I don't even remember what it was up against. Heck,
>I'm angry it was even *nominated*. You guys have no taste :-).

DS won over _Little, Big_, _The Many Colored Land_, _Project
Pope_ and _The Claw of the Conciliator_.

At the risk of openly displaying my inherent shallowness,
I don't see anything on there I particularly like, but the Simak
stands out as the One of the These Things is Not Like the Others,
not the Cherryh.

David Bilek

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:41:58 PM3/5/04
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On 5 Mar 2004 13:16:31 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>In article <k1gh401sek2ejoq7v...@4ax.com>,
>David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
>>>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>>>
>>
>>What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
>>well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.
>>
>>Freaking locals.
>>
> Damn, I was hoping to avoid this.
>
> Canadians are cheap. Worldcons are expensive. Torcon3 had
>fewer locals as a fraction of the crowd than other Noramian
>Worldcons, despite the fact that something like 20 million CDNs
>live within a day's drive of TO. If Sawyer got the Hugo purely due
>to locals, then the more numerous visitors must have refrained from
>voting against him for some reason.
>
> Sawyer may enjoy a disproportionate support amongst Canadians
>due to nationalism but I can assure you that sort of thing stops well
>short of actually spending more than 10 bucks (Maybe 40 if the book is
>mentioned on Space, TVO or the CBC). Much as you may not want to hear
>this, Americans must have voted for Hominids or at least not been arsed
>enough to vote against it.

Do not bother me with your petty *facts*.

-David

wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:43:14 PM3/5/04
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jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> In article <k1gh401sek2ejoq7v...@4ax.com>,
> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> >>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
> >>
> >> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
> >>
> >
> >What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
> >well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.
> >
> >Freaking locals.
> >
> Damn, I was hoping to avoid this.
>
> Canadians are cheap. Worldcons are expensive.

Largely for this reason I didn't go to Torcon 2,
to my later regret.

Torcon3 had
> fewer locals as a fraction of the crowd than other Noramian
> Worldcons, despite the fact that something like 20 million CDNs
> live within a day's drive of TO. If Sawyer got the Hugo purely due
> to locals, then the more numerous visitors must have refrained from
> voting against him for some reason.
>
> Sawyer may enjoy a disproportionate support amongst Canadians
> due to nationalism but I can assure you that sort of thing stops well
> short of actually spending more than 10 bucks (Maybe 40 if the book is
> mentioned on Space, TVO or the CBC). Much as you may not want to hear
> this, Americans must have voted for Hominids or at least not been arsed
> enough to vote against it.

The voting record of the successive ballots supports
your argument.

But some people just have to have a comfortable explanation
for "Hominids" winning. And if it can be blamed on furriners,
so much the better.

Haven't read the book, myself. Saywer is on my "eh, maybe"
list. Way too much else to read. Just today I've found
that there are two Damon Knight novels I'd never heard of.

William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University

Mike Schilling

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:44:35 PM3/5/04
to

"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c2akb3$3pb$1...@panix1.panix.com...

> In article <m2k71zn...@gw.dd-b.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> >
> >I'm still pissed off that LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_ beat out _The
> >Mote in God's Eye_. More than 20 years ago. And that _Downbelow
> >Station_ won; and I don't even remember what it was up against. Heck,
> >I'm angry it was even *nominated*. You guys have no taste :-).
>
> DS won over _Little, Big_, _The Many Colored Land_, _Project
> Pope_ and _The Claw of the Conciliator_.

That was a fine year for novels.


>
> At the risk of openly displaying my inherent shallowness,
> I don't see anything on there I particularly like, but the Simak
> stands out as the One of the These Things is Not Like the Others,
> not the Cherryh.

I agree. Any of the others would have been fine choices.


James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 3:09:35 PM3/5/04
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In article <jvlh4096na6k7tir6...@4ax.com>,
As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
me like a god!

Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.

David Cowie

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Mar 5, 2004, 3:16:39 PM3/5/04
to
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, James Nicoll wrote:

> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>
> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>

For the benefit of those who don't have this information in their heads,
and don't feel like looking it up on ISFDB or wherever, who wrote these
stories, and why is "The Saturn Game" bad?

--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net

Containment Failure + 2691:40

Offbreed

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Mar 5, 2004, 2:18:37 PM3/5/04
to
James Nicoll wrote:

> Sawyer may enjoy a disproportionate support amongst Canadians
> due to nationalism but I can assure you that sort of thing stops well
> short of actually spending more than 10 bucks (Maybe 40 if the book is
> mentioned on Space, TVO or the CBC). Much as you may not want to hear
> this, Americans must have voted for Hominids or at least not been arsed
> enough to vote against it.

Must have been the European voters. Americans don't usually want to
travel to some foreign country with weired and unspeakable habits and
no one speaks English.

<GD&R>

David M. Silver

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Mar 5, 2004, 5:13:08 PM3/5/04
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In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
> that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
> me like a god!
>
> Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.

May I quote and attribute you as source for that?

--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 5:19:13 PM3/5/04
to
In article <pan.2004.03.05...@privacy.net>,

David Cowie <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
>> Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>>
>> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>>
>For the benefit of those who don't have this information in their heads,
>and don't feel like looking it up on ISFDB or wherever, who wrote these
>stories, and why is "The Saturn Game" bad?
>
_Blue Champagne_ is late vintage Varley, _True Names_ is
by Vernor Vinge and moral of Poul Anderson's _The Saturn Game_
is that if you are exploring the region near Saturn, getting into
a delusional state because you are roleplaying too much is a bad
idea. I don't know how it got published, let along won the Hugo.

James Nicoll

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Mar 5, 2004, 5:20:54 PM3/5/04
to
In article <ag.plusone-86551...@news.fu-berlin.de>,

David M. Silver <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
>> that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
>> me like a god!
>>
>> Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.
>
>May I quote and attribute you as source for that?

Yes.

EdLincoln

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Mar 5, 2004, 5:29:15 PM3/5/04
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Of those books, my favourite was _Project Pope_. Simak is underappreciated.

<< Subject: Re: Hugo Outrage!
From: jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
Date: Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:27 PM
Message-id: <c2akb3$3pb$1...@panix1.panix.com> >><BR><BR>


<< DS won over _Little, Big_, _The Many Colored Land_, _Project

Pope_ and _The Claw of the Conciliator_ >><BR><BR>

David Bilek

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Mar 5, 2004, 6:14:52 PM3/5/04
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On 5 Mar 2004 17:20:54 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>In article <ag.plusone-86551...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
>David M. Silver <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
>>> that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
>>> me like a god!
>>>
>>> Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.
>>
>>May I quote and attribute you as source for that?
>
> Yes.

Didn't Booker T. Washington say that?

-David

Tim McDaniel

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Mar 5, 2004, 6:38:44 PM3/5/04
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In article <1f2i40dqav24gh7na...@4ax.com>,

Naw, it was some guy named Anon.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address

Jon Meltzer

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Mar 5, 2004, 7:47:06 PM3/5/04
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"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c2aud1$6c6$1...@panix3.panix.com...

> _Blue Champagne_ is late vintage Varley, _True Names_ is
> by Vernor Vinge and moral of Poul Anderson's _The Saturn Game_
> is that if you are exploring the region near Saturn, getting into
> a delusional state because you are roleplaying too much is a bad
> idea. I don't know how it got published, let along won the Hugo.

Anti-D&D backlash?

John Pelan

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Mar 5, 2004, 7:48:35 PM3/5/04
to


Agreed. This is a minor Simak, which means it still stands head and
shoulders above most other books. ;-)

In all fairness, I'd say that Little, Big was the most significant
book that year.

Cheers,

John

Still irritated that Daniel F. Galouye lost to Heinlein.

www.darksidepress.com

Htn963

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Mar 5, 2004, 8:42:35 PM3/5/04
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David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote in message news:<m2k71zn...@gw.dd-b.net>...

> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> >>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
> >>
> >> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.

Quit yer whining or you'll receive yet another lecture on How
Things Work So Live With It, Sucker! from A. Wheeler.

> > What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
> > well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.
> >
> > Freaking locals.

See above.


>
> I'm still pissed off that LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_ beat out _The
> Mote in God's Eye_. More than 20 years ago. And that _Downbelow
> Station_ won; and I don't even remember what it was up against. Heck,
> I'm angry it was even *nominated*. You guys have no taste :-).

_The Dispossessed_ is Leguin's masterpiece, one of the 10 greatest
SF novels on my list, while _Mote_ is at best a minor classic, notable
only for its above average rendering of aliens -- too bad Niven &
Pournelle couldn't do the same for the human characters. _Downbelow
Station_ is difficult to get into but is a cut above most
military-political SF, and for that matter, most of the recent Hugo
winners. You are weird.

--
Ht

William December Starr

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Mar 5, 2004, 8:44:19 PM3/5/04
to
In article <c2aud1$6c6$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:

> _Blue Champagne_ is late vintage Varley, _True Names_ is by
> Vernor Vinge and moral of Poul Anderson's _The Saturn Game_ is
> that if you are exploring the region near Saturn, getting into a
> delusional state because you are roleplaying too much is a bad
> idea. I don't know how it got published, let along won the Hugo.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<whrrrr> <*click*> "Even the Queen" by Connie Wilis, GRUMP! <*click*>

(Mechanically automated response to stimulus. No human involvement
required.)

--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Mar 5, 2004, 9:11:03 PM3/5/04
to
Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com>

I thought it was from _ibid_. _ibid_ is, of course, the most
authoritative source anywhere. I see it referenced all the time.

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." -Captain Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Mar 5, 2004, 9:18:22 PM3/5/04
to
Glenn Dowdy <glenn.n...@hpspam.com>

Retitling the American edition "HP and the Blue Stone" was just
sadistic, though.


(I wrote code that was buried in the grave of Bluestone...)

r.r...@thevine.net

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Mar 5, 2004, 10:39:34 PM3/5/04
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On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:48:35 -0800, John Pelan <jpe...@cnw.com> wrote:

>On 05 Mar 2004 22:29:15 GMT, edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote:
>
>>Of those books, my favourite was _Project Pope_. Simak is underappreciated.
>>
>><< Subject: Re: Hugo Outrage!
>>From: jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
>>Date: Fri, Mar 5, 2004 2:27 PM
>>Message-id: <c2akb3$3pb$1...@panix1.panix.com> >><BR><BR>
>><< DS won over _Little, Big_, _The Many Colored Land_, _Project
>>Pope_ and _The Claw of the Conciliator_ >><BR><BR>
>
>
>Agreed. This is a minor Simak, which means it still stands head and
>shoulders above most other books. ;-)
>
>In all fairness, I'd say that Little, Big was the most significant
>book that year.
>

While I like _Downbelow Station_, and found _Little, Big_ so
underwhelming that I put it down and never picked it back up. Just
goes to show YMMV.

Rebecca

David Bilek

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Mar 5, 2004, 11:28:35 PM3/5/04
to

He said "most significant" and I don't think mileage can really vary
all that much on this question. Neither "good" nor "enjoyable" is
the same as "significant".

I think the Lensman stuff is downright bad but I recognize its
significance.

-David

Endy9

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Mar 6, 2004, 12:01:12 AM3/6/04
to
I'm a Simak/Project Pope fan also. Great novel. I love his robots in this
and other novels.

--
Dennis/Endy
http://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/
~Dancing us from darkest night is the rhythm of love
Powered on by the beating of hearts~ -XTC
--
"EdLincoln" <edli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040305172915...@mb-m13.aol.com...

r.r...@thevine.net

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Mar 6, 2004, 12:13:20 AM3/6/04
to
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 04:28:35 GMT, David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Hmm. I guess that depends on how you define significance. It's not a
significant book to me, personally, since the only influence it's had
on me is to convince me to never pick up another Crowley book. And I
find myself in the situation where I can't tell what impact it has had
on the field. I'm not an author, or a publisher, just a reader, so if
it's the book that caused revolution X in the industry, I miss the
causal link.

So, in the goal of edifying myself, what is it about _Little, Big_
that makes it a significant work?

Rebecca

Dave Goldman

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Mar 6, 2004, 2:37:47 AM3/6/04
to
In article <slrnc4icpm.2...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>,

kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:

> Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com>
> wrote on Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:38:44 +0000 (UTC):
> > In article <1f2i40dqav24gh7na...@4ax.com>,
> > David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>On 5 Mar 2004 17:20:54 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >>>In article <ag.plusone-86551...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> >>>David M. Silver <ag.pl...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> >>>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >>>>> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic
> >>>>> advice that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was
> >>>>> _right_! Worship me like a god!
> >>>>> Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.
> >>>>May I quote and attribute you as source for that?
> >>> Yes.
> >>Didn't Booker T. Washington say that?
> > Naw, it was some guy named Anon.
>
> I thought it was from _ibid_. _ibid_ is, of course, the most
> authoritative source anywhere. I see it referenced all the time.

Naw. I've never seen _ibid_ as the first cite for _anything_.

- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR

Bill Snyder

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Mar 6, 2004, 4:16:23 AM3/6/04
to

Yeah, but it's not the worst; it seems to consistently come in
slightly ahead of _op. cit._.

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]

David M. Silver

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Mar 6, 2004, 4:41:58 AM3/6/04
to
In article <7k5j40dq0fdaold93...@4ax.com>,
Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:

_supra._ and _infra._ are far more famous in legal circles -- probably
because they enable the commission of far more crimes than _Id._,
_ibid_, even _op. cit._, or even _Viz._, who is the most devious of them
all. Then there's always _post_ and _ff._ and finally arrgh!

Sea Wasp

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Mar 6, 2004, 7:01:55 AM3/6/04
to
Guy Gordon wrote:

> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I think the Lensman stuff is downright bad but I recognize its
>>significance.
>>
>
> Oh, go on. The Lensman series continues to be read today, because
> it's *entertaining*.
>
> Very few people pick up a book (much less five or six) because someone
> else told them is was "significant".

It is difficult for us, at merely the second stage of development,
to comprehend that there are those who find the Lensman series
inadequate in entertainment. It requires a mind stable at the third
level of stress to truly see that, while tragic, such things are
necessary as part of the Cosmic All.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

David Bilek

unread,
Mar 6, 2004, 11:48:34 AM3/6/04
to
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 12:01:55 GMT, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>Guy Gordon wrote:
>> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think the Lensman stuff is downright bad but I recognize its
>>>significance.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, go on. The Lensman series continues to be read today, because
>> it's *entertaining*.
>>
>> Very few people pick up a book (much less five or six) because someone
>> else told them is was "significant".
>
> It is difficult for us, at merely the second stage of development,
>to comprehend that there are those who find the Lensman series
>inadequate in entertainment. It requires a mind stable at the third
>level of stress to truly see that, while tragic, such things are
>necessary as part of the Cosmic All.

Don't worry, once you reach the third stage you'll understand.

-David

jtingle

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Mar 6, 2004, 2:44:36 PM3/6/04
to
On 5 Mar 2004 20:44:19 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
Starr) wrote:

Don't you know the rule, "Connie Willis always wins."? I don't know
why, but it's a rule. I think she's the all time Hugo queen and maybe
even the king, too.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

John Pelan

unread,
Mar 6, 2004, 3:43:23 PM3/6/04
to

It requires a certain amount of dedication on the part of the reader,
but for an epic fantasy that incorporates most of the tropes of
Western Fantasy in an ingenious manner, there's really nothing else
quite on its level. A truly amazing book Now I'll admit, the first
time I picked it up I set it back down with the thought "I don't have
time for this". A few years later I devoted a couple of days to a
careful reading and did little else. It was worth it.

There's an overview that I quite agree with at

http://www.strangewords.com/archive/littlebig.html

Cheers,

John

www.darksidepress.com

EdLincoln

unread,
Mar 6, 2004, 5:46:09 PM3/6/04
to
By "significant" many of you seem to mean "influnential". I find it
interesting how _uninfluential_ the _Foundation_ series was. It is interesting
that the series did the reverse of what most novels do to this day.

In most sci fi work, the following would be "bad guys" but they were good guys
in the _Foundation_ series.
1.) Secret Society of who secretly determine the shape of history...
2.) Large civilizations who want to conquer all weaker civilizatons....
3.) Being who want to merge all life in the galaxy into one collective.
4.) Mathematicians who think individual free will is irrelevent and think they
can predict and shape human behavior...
5.) Robots who think they knw what is best for humans better thahn humans do...
6.) Group who want to control a planet by making it's people dependent on
foreign goods...

There is a certain general who would be the good guy in most sci fi buty was a
"villain" in the _Foundation_ series.

David Cowie

unread,
Mar 6, 2004, 7:02:46 PM3/6/04
to
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:19:13 -0500, James Nicoll wrote:

> _Blue Champagne_ is late vintage Varley, _True Names_ is
> by Vernor Vinge and moral of Poul Anderson's _The Saturn Game_
> is that if you are exploring the region near Saturn, getting into
> a delusional state because you are roleplaying too much is a bad
> idea.

Yes, but what if you're not a Liberal?

--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net

Containment Failure + 2719:21

Andrew Wheeler

unread,
Mar 6, 2004, 8:19:22 PM3/6/04
to
Htn963 wrote:
>
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote in message news:<m2k71zn...@gw.dd-b.net>...
> > David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> writes:
> >
> > > On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > >> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> > >>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>
> Quit yer whining or you'll receive yet another lecture on How
> Things Work So Live With It, Sucker! from A. Wheeler.

It's more of a "piss off cursing the darkness if you're not going to
bother to light even one little candle" lecture, actually. People who
vote have every right to be unhappy when things don't go their way.

That lecture, though, really doesn't apply to things decades old, or
things the complainer can't vote on in the first place. (Example: Bill
Murray was robbed about a week ago. Slightly more on-topic example: Sean
Astin was massively *more* robbed, and Andy Serkis before him triply
so.)

And, as a matter of fact, I happen to personally think "Saturn Game" is
a lousy story, with an obvious and stupid moral.

So no lecture this time -- sorry.

--
Andrew Wheeler
"Mens' souls are crooked and unsound things, not good materials out of
which to build friendships. families, households, cities, civilizations.
But good or no, these things must be built, and we must craft them with
the materials at hand, and make as strong and stubborn redoubt as we can
make, lest the horrors of the Night should triumph over us, not in some
distant age to come, but now."
- John C. Wright, "Awake in the Night"

Evelyn C. Leeper

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 2:41:41 AM3/7/04
to

Of course, Willis's REMAKE lost to Stephenson's THE DIAMOND AGE for
1996, and her PASSAGE lost to Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS for 2002. her
short works lost in 1980, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1990 (2), 1991, and 1992 (in
all three short categories!),

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
http://www.geocities.com/evelynleeper
Separate is not equal. The right time to do the right thing
is always now. Those who say "wait" usually mean "never."
--Bonnie Tinker and The Rev. Cecil Prescod

Nicholas Whyte

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 6:24:45 AM3/7/04
to
edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote in message news:<20040306174609...@mb-m17.aol.com>...

> By "significant" many of you seem to mean "influnential". I find it
> interesting how _uninfluential_ the _Foundation_ series was. It is interesting
> that the series did the reverse of what most novels do to this day.
>
> In most sci fi work, the following would be "bad guys" but they were good guys
> in the _Foundation_ series.
> 1.) Secret Society of who secretly determine the shape of history...
> 2.) Large civilizations who want to conquer all weaker civilizatons....
> 3.) Being who want to merge all life in the galaxy into one collective.
> 4.) Mathematicians who think individual free will is irrelevent and think they
> can predict and shape human behavior...
> 5.) Robots who think they knw what is best for humans better thahn humans do...
> 6.) Group who want to control a planet by making it's people dependent on
> foreign goods...

I dunno. There's a lot of good stories that revolve around exploring
these themes; in particular on point #3, the pros and cons of
collective consciousness are explored for instance in Frank Herbert's
_The Santaroga Barrier_.

And I don't recall any robots at all in the original _Foundation_
trilogy, nor the economic point.

But I agree with your general thesis - it's rather difficult to think
of subsequent sf works that could be said to be "in the tradition of
Asimov's _Foundation_".

Nicholas
my real email address is explorers at whyte dot com

Nicholas Whyte

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 6:27:03 AM3/7/04
to
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <ele...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<VmA2c.10807$Ak2.4...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...

> jtingle wrote:
> > Don't you know the rule, "Connie Willis always wins."? I don't know
> > why, but it's a rule. I think she's the all time Hugo queen and maybe
> > even the king, too.
>
> Of course, Willis's REMAKE lost to Stephenson's THE DIAMOND AGE for
> 1996, and her PASSAGE lost to Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS for 2002. her
> short works lost in 1980, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1990 (2), 1991, and 1992 (in
> all three short categories!),

C'mon, let's allow some rhetorical excess. And the fact is that her
eight Hugos for fiction are unlikely to be equalled, let alone
surpassed, by anyone soon (unless Harlan Ellison strkies lucky).

Nicholas Whyte

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 7:08:53 AM3/7/04
to
David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<k1gh401sek2ejoq7v...@4ax.com>...

> On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
> >Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
> >
> > Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
> >
>
> What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
> well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.
>
> Freaking locals.

The Nebula wins for _The Quantum Rose_ and _Darwin's Radio_ are at
least as outrageous as any recent Hugo awards.

Having said that, I do buy the "Canadians are guilty" argument about
_Hominids_. It's clear from the published figures that of the 195
first preference voters for _Hominids_, 60 voted for it and for no
other option, not even "No Award", and another 7 put it first and "No
Award" second. Obviously we can't tell how many of these (or of the
other 135 who put _Hominids_ ahead of other novels) would not have
voted had the convention been held outside Canada, but it seems to me
likely that it would have covered the 40-vote lead that Hominids
enjoyed at all stages of the count.

Nicholas
My real email address is explorers at whyte dot com

Evelyn C. Leeper

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 9:41:05 AM3/7/04
to
Nicholas Whyte wrote:

Rhetorical excess is one thing, but she's actually lost more than she's
won (when nominated).

If Poul Anderson gets a Retro Hugo this year, he ties her (if my stats
are correct).

Silverberg, by the way, has considerably more nominations (23, IIRC).

Evelyn C. Leeper

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 9:43:00 AM3/7/04
to
Nicholas Whyte wrote:

> David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<k1gh401sek2ejoq7v...@4ax.com>...
>>On 5 Mar 2004 11:20:48 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>>> I'd just like to say that I am still pissed off that "The
>>>Saturn Game" beat out "Blue Champagne" and "True Names" at Chicon IV.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it's been two decades. I am still pissed off.
>>
>>What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
>>well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.
>

> The Nebula wins for _The Quantum Rose_ and _Darwin's Radio_ are at
> least as outrageous as any recent Hugo awards.

May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?

David Bilek

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 2:52:56 PM3/7/04
to
On 7 Mar 2004 04:08:53 -0800, nichol...@hotmail.com (Nicholas

Hah! I knew it! Freaking locals!

I like your facts better than James Nicoll's facts.

-David

Pete McCutchen

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 5:19:57 PM3/7/04
to
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:48:34 GMT, David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 12:01:55 GMT, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:

Didn't he just say that?
--

Pete McCutchen

Sea Wasp

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 7:16:17 PM3/7/04
to

He comes from the Department of Redundancy Department. They have
to reiterate and restate things that have already been stated previously.

David Bilek

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 9:09:13 PM3/7/04
to
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 00:16:17 GMT, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>Pete McCutchen wrote:
>>David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 12:01:55 GMT, Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is difficult for us, at merely the second stage of development,
>>>>to comprehend that there are those who find the Lensman series
>>>>inadequate in entertainment. It requires a mind stable at the third
>>>>level of stress to truly see that, while tragic, such things are
>>>>necessary as part of the Cosmic All.
>>>
>>>Don't worry, once you reach the third stage you'll understand.
>>
>>
>> Didn't he just say that?
>
> He comes from the Department of Redundancy Department. They have
>to reiterate and restate things that have already been stated previously.

I also like to repeat things from time to time.

-David

Sea Wasp

unread,
Mar 7, 2004, 9:34:29 PM3/7/04
to

Repeating things I what I like to do! I, who am the one doing the
speaking, often like to repeat what I have said, for the repeating of
that which was said by me is important to emphasize, and so by the
repetition the genius of what I, who is the one speaking, will be
emphasized, through repetition, by myself, who is speaking these
things, which are being repeated, to reiterate to the world that the
one and singular and only genius, who is repeating these words, is
none other than ME -- MOJO-JOJO! MUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

David Goldfarb

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 4:33:43 AM3/8/04
to
In article <UxG2c.14411$Ak2.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,

Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
>MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?

What were the other nominees that year?

--
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | [This space intentionally left blank.]
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |

Richard Horton

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 8:12:41 AM3/8/04
to
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:33:43 +0000 (UTC), gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
(David Goldfarb) wrote:

>In article <UxG2c.14411$Ak2.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
>Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
>>MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?
>
>What were the other nominees that year?

There weren't nominees in those days.

We've had this discussion before, so a more complete version could
probably be found on Google. The most obviously great SF/F book from
1954 is _The Fellowship of the Ring_, but in all likelihood a Fantasy
book that had only appeared in the UK would not have won the 1955
Hugo. Of the more "usual suspects" for that day and age, I tend to
prefer _Brain Wave_.

(Note also that books published in early 1955 would have also had a
chance to win that Hugo.)

--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)

Evelyn C. Leeper

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:45:50 AM3/8/04
to
David Goldfarb wrote:

> In article <UxG2c.14411$Ak2.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
> Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
>>MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?
>
> What were the other nominees that year?

They didn't list nominees at that time, but I believe THE CAVES OF
STEEL, BRAINWAVE, and MISSION OF GRAVITY were all the same year. (Also
LUCKY STARR AND THE OCEANS OF VENUS.)

wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:57:43 AM3/8/04
to
Htn...@peoplepc.com (Htn963) writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote in message news:<m2k71zn...@gw.dd-b.net>...

> > I'm still pissed off that LeGuin's _The Dispossessed_ beat out _The
> > Mote in God's Eye_. More than 20 years ago. And that _Downbelow
> > Station_ won; and I don't even remember what it was up against. Heck,
> > I'm angry it was even *nominated*. You guys have no taste :-).
>
> _The Dispossessed_ is Leguin's masterpiece, one of the 10 greatest
> SF novels on my list, while _Mote_ is at best a minor classic,

At the time I would certainly have voted for "Mote" as
I didn't even finish the LeGuin. Today I would vote for
"The Dispossessed".

William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University

Mike Schilling

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Mar 8, 2004, 12:29:13 PM3/8/04
to

"Richard Horton" <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:dj_2c.21992$I54....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:33:43 +0000 (UTC), gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
> (David Goldfarb) wrote:
>
> >In article <UxG2c.14411$Ak2.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
> >Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
> >>MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?
> >
> >What were the other nominees that year?
>
> There weren't nominees in those days.
>
> We've had this discussion before, so a more complete version could
> probably be found on Google. The most obviously great SF/F book from
> 1954 is _The Fellowship of the Ring_, but in all likelihood a Fantasy
> book that had only appeared in the UK would not have won the 1955
> Hugo. Of the more "usual suspects" for that day and age, I tend to
> prefer _Brain Wave_.

A good book, but hardly a great one. I think that would nowadays be
considered one of the weaker Hugos.


Thomas Christensen

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 1:39:13 PM3/8/04
to
David Bilek wrote:

> What a coincidence, I'm still pissed off that _Hominids_ beat out,
> well, anything up to and including a plate of human excrement.

I've read two Sawyer novels. The Terminal Experience (Nebula Best Novel
winner) and Frameshift (Hugo Award nominee).

Both of them are on my Books That Suck Really, Really Bad list.

And it's a really short list...

And TTE was up against Mother of Storms by John Barnes [TC shakes his
and walks away...]


--
TC http://sfbook.com
Science Fiction Book database, recommendations, reviews, ratings...

John M. Gamble

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 8:54:56 PM3/8/04
to
In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
>that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
>me like a god!
>

I'm concerned. You've given romantic advice that *did* end with
massive loss of life?

> Apparently their form of worship involves a lot of laughing.
>

Hey, as long as it gets you god-like powers.

--
-john

February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.

Sea Wasp

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:10:17 PM3/8/04
to
John M. Gamble wrote:
> In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
>>that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
>>me like a god!
>>
>
>
> I'm concerned. You've given romantic advice that *did* end with
> massive loss of life?

This is _JAMES NICOLL_, man. Of COURSE he has.

Richard Horton

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 9:22:52 PM3/8/04
to
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:45:50 GMT, "Evelyn C. Leeper"
<ele...@optonline.net> wrote:

>David Goldfarb wrote:
>
>> In article <UxG2c.14411$Ak2.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
>> Evelyn C. Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>May I be the first to say I'm pissed off about THE FOREVER
>>>MACHINE/THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT, close to five decades ago?
>>
>> What were the other nominees that year?
>
>They didn't list nominees at that time, but I believe THE CAVES OF
>STEEL, BRAINWAVE, and MISSION OF GRAVITY were all the same year. (Also
>LUCKY STARR AND THE OCEANS OF VENUS.)

"The Caves of Steel" and "Mission of Gravity" were both serialized in
1953. I have heard that the book version of MISSION OF GRAVITY
differs (if perhaps not very much) from the serial -- on those grounds
it may have been eligible again. I haven't heard the same about THE
CAVES OF STEEL. Even so, I don't think the differences in either case
are likely to have led to the books being considered again in 1955, at
least not if 1955 nomination/voting rules were the same as they are
now. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if both books got votes in
the 1955 race, because a) the Hugo rules weren't very formal at the
time; and b) there had been no 1954 Hugos.

(Serials have on occasion been nominated, and the book version later
nominated again. I can think of two cases. Frank Herbert's "Dune
World", a three part serial in 1963/1964 of the first portion of
_Dune_, was nominated for the 1964 Hugo, followed by _Dune_ being
nominated and winning in 1966. And Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is
a Harsh Mistress" was nominated in 1966 based on its five part
serialization in If, 1965/1966; and was nominated again and won in
1967 for the book publication.

My copy of Roger Zelazny's _This Immortal_ notes that its serial
version, "... And Call Me Conrad", won the 1966 Hugo (tying with
_Dune_, of course) and suggests that the book version (which is
expanded by some 8000 words) might also win the 1967 version (it
didn't, of course).)

David Silberstein

unread,
Mar 8, 2004, 10:28:56 PM3/8/04
to
In article <404D27BB...@wizvax.net>,

Sea Wasp <sea...@wizvax.net> wrote:
>John M. Gamble wrote:
>> In article <c2ampv$m0p$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As I said to someone recently after giving them romantic advice
>>>that did not end with a massive loss of life, I was _right_! Worship
>>>me like a god!
>>
>>
>> I'm concerned. You've given romantic advice that *did* end with
>> massive loss of life?
>
> This is _JAMES NICOLL_, man. Of COURSE he has.
>

Iamos Nikiolli to Paris of Troy: Go ahead, run away with the
chick. Her husband will be in a snit for a while, but he'll
get over it. After all, he's a Spartan, and you know what
*that* means.

Glenn Dowdy

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 11:30:59 AM3/9/04
to

"David Silberstein" <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote in
message news:HuAHo...@kithrup.com...
"Ja, der Zeppelin ist wunderbar fur der Honeymoon".

Glenn D.


James Nicoll

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 11:33:30 AM3/9/04
to
In article <7jm3c.501$ws1...@news.cpqcorp.net>,
You know, if the Hindenberg were a modern plane crash it
would be considered survivable since the vast majority of the
people on it lived, unlike the common case in plane crashes.
--
"Unless there are slaves to do the ugly, horrible, uninteresting work, culture
and contemplation become almost impossible. Human slavery is wrong, insecure,
and demoralizing. On mechanical slavery, on the slavery of the machine, the
future of the world depends." -Oscar Wilde, "The Soul of Man Under Socialism"

Justin Bacon

unread,
Mar 9, 2004, 1:51:30 PM3/9/04