The Day After Tomorrow

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David Silberstein

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May 30, 2004, 12:21:42 AM5/30/04
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(yeah, yeah, off-topic for rasf.written, but nevertheless...)

WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that this film
is enormously likely to cause severely strained suspension
of disbelief in anyone who has a greater-than-room-temperature
intelligence or a nonzero amount of general knowledge of reality.
For those who are actually educated in the laws of physics,
and more specifically, geology, meteorology and/or climatology,
said strain may cause headaches, and in the worst case, cranial
detonations may occur.

In addition, severely partisan liberal environmentalist politics
may cause laryngitis due to howls of outrage from anyone who is
not a liberal environmentalist, and itching and burning sensations
in those who are liberal environmentalists with the slightest shred
of intelligence and integrity as they wish to disassociate themselves
from anything which espouses the liberal environmentalist position
with this level of mind-boggling raw seething stupidity.

This movie is most likely to be enjoyed by apolitical fans of horror
and disaster, who might possibly take pleasure in seeing "severe
weather as movie monster", as CGI tornados take apart downtown Los
Angeles, and CGI water and cold destroy Manhattan, and indeed, most
of the planet.

Lee DeRaud

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May 30, 2004, 12:45:21 AM5/30/04
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 04:21:42 GMT, David Silberstein
<davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:

>WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that this film
>is enormously likely to cause severely strained suspension
>of disbelief in anyone who has a greater-than-room-temperature
>intelligence or a nonzero amount of general knowledge of reality.
>For those who are actually educated in the laws of physics,
>and more specifically, geology, meteorology and/or climatology,
>said strain may cause headaches, and in the worst case, cranial
>detonations may occur.

I was planning on waiting for the DVD to come out and watching it as
the middle of a triple-feature with "Tremors" and "Killer Klowns From
Outer Space". Will that work any better?

Lee

Bill Snyder

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May 30, 2004, 12:50:50 AM5/30/04
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 04:21:42 GMT, David Silberstein
<davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:

>
>(yeah, yeah, off-topic for rasf.written, but nevertheless...)
>
>WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that this film
>is enormously likely to cause severely strained suspension
>of disbelief in anyone who has a greater-than-room-temperature
>intelligence or a nonzero amount of general knowledge of reality.
>For those who are actually educated in the laws of physics,
>and more specifically, geology, meteorology and/or climatology,
>said strain may cause headaches, and in the worst case, cranial
>detonations may occur.
>
>In addition, severely partisan liberal environmentalist politics
>may cause laryngitis due to howls of outrage from anyone who is
>not a liberal environmentalist, and itching and burning sensations
>in those who are liberal environmentalists with the slightest shred
>of intelligence and integrity as they wish to disassociate themselves
>from anything which espouses the liberal environmentalist position
>with this level of mind-boggling raw seething stupidity.

So in essence, it appears that the technical advisors for this film
were Lorenzo Love and nospam?

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]

Lawrence Person

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May 30, 2004, 2:43:12 AM5/30/04
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In article <HyIEs...@kithrup.com>,
David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:

> (yeah, yeah, off-topic for rasf.written, but nevertheless...)
>
> WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that this film
> is enormously likely to cause severely strained suspension
> of disbelief in anyone who has a greater-than-room-temperature
> intelligence or a nonzero amount of general knowledge of reality.

My favorite review was the one in Norwegian (or possibly Swedish), in which I
could only the read a single phrase: "Mystery Science Theater 3000."

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheDayAfterTomorrow-1132625/

Keith Morrison

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May 30, 2004, 2:29:31 AM5/30/04
to
David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote:

>(yeah, yeah, off-topic for rasf.written, but nevertheless...)
>
>WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that this film
>is enormously likely to cause severely strained suspension
>of disbelief in anyone who has a greater-than-room-temperature
>intelligence or a nonzero amount of general knowledge of reality.
>For those who are actually educated in the laws of physics,
>and more specifically, geology, meteorology and/or climatology,
>said strain may cause headaches, and in the worst case, cranial
>detonations may occur.

Buwahahahaha! I've had to suffer bad geology, bad military and bad
firefighting movies. Others have suffered bad computer science, bad
physics, bad medical, even bad writing movies.

Now you climatologists can feel our pain. Welcome to our world.

--
Keith

Chad Irby

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May 30, 2004, 3:16:23 AM5/30/04
to
In article <qhpib01kquqh1qsq2...@4ax.com>,
Lee DeRaud <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:

"Tremors" and "Klowns" both had a better grounding in science, so be
ready.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Svein Ove Aas

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May 30, 2004, 5:57:52 AM5/30/04
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Lawrence Person wrote:

Are you sure about that?
It looks to be in English to me, except for the single word 'nei'. (Which
means 'no'.)

Svein Ove Aas

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May 30, 2004, 6:04:10 AM5/30/04
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Bill Snyder wrote:

Nah. They're both a lot saner, and have much more moderate views on
environmentalism.

Eden R

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May 30, 2004, 7:44:00 AM5/30/04
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Howdy,

I just saw "Day After" and you are correct the science is ridiculous but I
did think in the grand tradition of sci-fi
it made it an entertaining roller coaster ride and the special effects I
thought were great.

Further, beneath the ride I think it said some important things about
consumption of finite resources, that the US standard
(and for that matter the whole of the West) is unsustainable, that the
present administration are not taking their roles as caretakers of the
environment seriously resulting in a fantastic caricature of Cheney.

I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...I
know that the theatre
I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border and
ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)

Cheers
Eden
"David Silberstein" <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote in
message news:HyIEs...@kithrup.com...

SpaceGirl

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May 30, 2004, 7:44:44 AM5/30/04
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"David Silberstein" <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote in
message news:HyIEs...@kithrup.com...
>


Brrrr and it was so chilly here in Edinburgh, Scotland, when we came out of
the cinema at 1:30am... perfectly clear sky, huge moon. We were in the eye
of a storm :)


Dreamer

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May 30, 2004, 8:57:29 AM5/30/04
to
On 5/30/04 6:44 AM, in article
4Ojuc.18193$L.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au>
wrote:

> I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...I
> know that the theatre
> I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border and
> ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)

Mostly we won't.

I find it very interesting that this little morality play regarding
Americans trying to cross into Mexico and being rejected is viewed as so
cosmically just by many people.

I assure you that the Mexican Army would be there with tanks and machine
guns and would repel all such attempted border crossers with deadly force.
They would not be anything like as civilized as we currently are about the
thing. The only reason they don't do it now is that nobody *wants* to cross
into their country illegally, except drug smugglers who often do it under
their aegis anyway.

Funny how you hear so much about those immigrants who die crossing a
freaking *desert,* that they know is there, without adequate supplies or
preparation, but you never hear about the Mexican Army crossing into US
territory and harassing and occasionally *killing* US citizens.

D

Sten Thaning

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May 30, 2004, 10:15:24 AM5/30/04
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:57:52 +0200, Svein Ove Aas
<svein+u...@brage.info> wrote:

>Lawrence Person wrote:
>>
>> My favorite review was the one in Norwegian (or possibly Swedish), in
>> which I could only the read a single phrase: "Mystery Science Theater
>> 3000."
>>
>> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheDayAfterTomorrow-1132625/
>>
>Are you sure about that?
>It looks to be in English to me, except for the single word 'nei'. (Which
>means 'no'.)

Do you mean this article?
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1132625/reviews.php?critic=8&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1283914
That's Icelandic.

- Sten

James Nicoll

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May 30, 2004, 10:25:46 AM5/30/04
to
In article <9mvib0pj03m7tjb2b...@4ax.com>,

Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>
>Buwahahahaha! I've had to suffer bad geology, bad military and bad
>firefighting movies. Others have suffered bad computer science, bad
>physics, bad medical, even bad writing movies.
>
>Now you climatologists can feel our pain. Welcome to our world.

It occurs to me that the Circumpolar Current is just sitting there,
waiting to be used to provide power to the growing economies of the South.
One wonders at what point the power-draw begins to have global implications.
The CPC cools the entire planet, so from a Terraforming Canada POV, shutting
off would help. Pity about the Gulf Stream possibly shutting down but you
can't break eggs without making an omlet.

Back to the Miocene!
James Nicoll
--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammability."
JFK, _Bubba Ho Tep_

Wired Gargoyle

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May 30, 2004, 11:30:09 AM5/30/04
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David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid> wrote in
news:HyIEs...@kithrup.com:

So you're saying it was really cool?

--
ICQ: 4304313
Gadgets: Zen 20Gb/Shure E2/Ipaq 3850/Sharp 702

David Cowie

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May 30, 2004, 11:24:15 AM5/30/04
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Where will you be THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW?
I'll probably be at home, because I've got the week off work.

--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net

Containment Failure + 4750:48

Svein Ove Aas

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May 30, 2004, 2:06:38 PM5/30/04
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Sten Thaning wrote:

I almost kinda understand that.

Wayne Throop

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May 30, 2004, 2:14:50 PM5/30/04
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: "Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au>
: I just saw "Day After" and you are correct the science is ridiculous

: but I did think in the grand tradition of sci-fi it made it an
: entertaining roller coaster ride and the special effects I thought
: were great.

Going only from teasers and trailers, I note that the inundation
of New York as depicted didn't do anywhere near enough damage.
That is, the incoming water "should" have done much more damage
than was depicted in the trailers/teasers.
Or so it seemed to me.


Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

Mark Reichert

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May 30, 2004, 2:19:52 PM5/30/04
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Chad Irby <ci...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<bTfuc.41109$0X2.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...

> "Tremors" and "Klowns" both had a better grounding in science, so be
> ready.

"Tremors" is particularly superior in that the geologist never
pretends to be anything but a geologist. She can make intelligent
guesses outside her field, but it is plain they are only guesses. I
think the actress did a wonderful job as well as being cute.<g>

John Schilling

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May 30, 2004, 2:22:33 PM5/30/04
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Dreamer <dre...@dreamstrike.com> writes:

>On 5/30/04 6:44 AM, in article
>4Ojuc.18193$L.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au>
>wrote:

>> I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...I
>> know that the theatre
>> I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border and
>> ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)

>Mostly we won't.

>I find it very interesting that this little morality play regarding
>Americans trying to cross into Mexico and being rejected is viewed as so
>cosmically just by many people.

>I assure you that the Mexican Army would be there with tanks and machine
>guns and would repel all such attempted border crossers with deadly force.


Except for the slight detail that the Mexican Army doesn't actually *have*
any tanks...


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

John F. Eldredge

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May 30, 2004, 2:41:29 PM5/30/04
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:14:50 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
wrote:

I saw the movie yesterday. The massive storm in the movie (similiar
to a hurricane, but larger) had strong downdrafts in the eye,
bringing down air from the troposphere cold enough to cause
flash-freezing at ground level, rather than the strong updrafts in
the eye of a real hurricane. This should have resulted in the
opposite of a storm surge, lowering local sea level rather than
raising it.

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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 30, 2004, 2:58:33 PM5/30/04
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On 30 May 2004 11:22:33 -0700, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
wrote:

>Dreamer <dre...@dreamstrike.com> writes:
>
>>I assure you that the Mexican Army would be there with tanks and machine
>>guns and would repel all such attempted border crossers with deadly force.
>
>Except for the slight detail that the Mexican Army doesn't actually *have*
>any tanks...

Yes, they do.

I found this by the simple expedient of googling on +"Mexican army"
+tanks:

"Mexican M3A1 and M5A1 light tanks, together with the M8 SPG and M8
Greyhounds served with the 12th cavalry regiment in Chiapas; some of
these vehicles bore the brunt of the Zapatist-attack in 1994 until
reinforcements arrived. In the begining or middle of the nineties
there were 40 greyhounds in inventory. These vehicles had new engines
installed and the 37mm guns where repleaced with 7.62mm guns, a 20mm
gun or a 60mm mortar."

Lee DeRaud

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May 30, 2004, 3:05:02 PM5/30/04
to
On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:41:29 -0500, John F. Eldredge
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:

>I saw the movie yesterday. The massive storm in the movie (similiar
>to a hurricane, but larger) had strong downdrafts in the eye,
>bringing down air from the troposphere cold enough to cause
>flash-freezing at ground level, rather than the strong updrafts in
>the eye of a real hurricane. This should have resulted in the
>opposite of a storm surge, lowering local sea level rather than
>raising it.

I thought "storm surge" was wind-driven, not pressure-driven.
(But I admit my meteorology-fu is weak.)

Lee

Phil Fraering

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May 30, 2004, 3:11:39 PM5/30/04
to
John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes:

>I saw the movie yesterday. The massive storm in the movie (similiar
>to a hurricane, but larger) had strong downdrafts in the eye,
>bringing down air from the troposphere cold enough to cause
>flash-freezing at ground level, rather than the strong updrafts in
>the eye of a real hurricane. This should have resulted in the
>opposite of a storm surge, lowering local sea level rather than
>raising it.

And, of course, robbing the hurricane of energy.

--
pgf

Keith Morrison

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May 30, 2004, 3:11:09 PM5/30/04
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Mark_R...@hotmail.com (Mark Reichert) wrote:

>> "Tremors" and "Klowns" both had a better grounding in science, so be
>> ready.
>
>"Tremors" is particularly superior in that the geologist never
>pretends to be anything but a geologist. She can make intelligent
>guesses outside her field, but it is plain they are only guesses. I
>think the actress did a wonderful job as well as being cute.<g>

Not to mention that when a question comes up regarding the biology of
the creatures she gets annoyed when everyone turns to *her* expecting
an answer.

A great rip at the "scientist who is an expert in anything" that is
typical of SF movies.

--
Keith

Keith Morrison

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May 30, 2004, 3:14:32 PM5/30/04
to
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> It occurs to me that the Circumpolar Current is just sitting there,
>waiting to be used to provide power to the growing economies of the South.
>One wonders at what point the power-draw begins to have global implications.
>The CPC cools the entire planet, so from a Terraforming Canada POV, shutting
>off would help. Pity about the Gulf Stream possibly shutting down but you
>can't break eggs without making an omlet.

I'd think about taking down some of the Rockies. That would allow
Pacific moisture and warmer air to penetrate further into the interior
of the continent.

It would ruin that atmospheric function that brings warmer air up into
Europe, but like you said concerning omelets...

--
Keith

David Silberstein

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May 30, 2004, 3:41:25 PM5/30/04
to

Please. Everyone *knows* that human-built skyscrapers (and
for that matter, monuments) can easily withstand MEGATONS
of water slamming into them without even tilting a little,
let alone buckling and crumbling like paper-maché.


There were a few good lines that should be mentioned (note:
Arjay Smith plays Brian Parks, who might be (unfairly)
compared to Urquel because he's black, of slight build,
wears glasses, and is highly intelligent):

So Brian has found a radio, and is fiddling with its innards
in an attempt to get any kind of information from some
frequency. A policeman leans over and says "Maybe you should
get someone to help you with that?" And Brian responds: "I'm
the president of the electronics club, the math club, and the
chess club. If you can find a bigger nerd than me, bring him
on."

In a later scene, where they've decided to start burning books
in the New York Public Library to keep warm, a man and a woman
get into an argument over which books should or should not be
burned.

Man: You can't burn Nietzsche! He's one of western
civilizations great philosophers!

Woman: Oh, come ON. Nietzsche was a racist sociopath who
was in love with his sister!

Man: He was *not* a racist sociopath!

Woman: But he *was* in love with his sister!

Brian, from below: Guys, there's a whole section here on
the tax code that we can burn first...

Craig Richardson

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May 30, 2004, 3:05:56 PM5/30/04
to
On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:44:00 GMT, "Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au> wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I just saw "Day After" and you are correct the science is ridiculous but I
>did think in the grand tradition of sci-fi
>it made it an entertaining roller coaster ride and the special effects I
>thought were great.
>
>Further, beneath the ride I think it said some important things about
>consumption of finite resources, that the US standard
>(and for that matter the whole of the West) is unsustainable, that the
>present administration are not taking their roles as caretakers of the
>environment seriously resulting in a fantastic caricature of Cheney.
>
>I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...

Finite resources aren't. The unsustainable standard of living isn't,
and the present administration has been, despite their well-catalogued
flaws, much better in environmental policy than people think, since
the good things they do are underreported, while the bad are
overreported.

Basically, all the "ideas" are wrong.

--Craig


--
Craig Richardson (Homepage <http://crichard-tacoma.home.att.net>)
"when you move into a new energy source you have to assume there's going
to be some environmental impact,"
-- Jeremy Rifkin renounces the Precautionary Principle

John F. Eldredge

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May 30, 2004, 4:08:01 PM5/30/04
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As I understand it, the storm surge is driven by both the wind and
the lower air pressure at the eye. I am not a meteorologist either.

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erilar

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May 30, 2004, 5:34:52 PM5/30/04
to
In article <9mvib0pj03m7tjb2b...@4ax.com>, Keith Morrison
<kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:

Add horrible "historical" movies 8-)

--
Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument
is that reason doesn't count. Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Wayne Throop

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May 30, 2004, 4:54:46 PM5/30/04
to
:: Going only from teasers and trailers, I note that the inundation of

:: New York as depicted didn't do anywhere near enough damage.

: David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid>
: Please. Everyone *knows* that human-built skyscrapers (and for that


: matter, monuments) can easily withstand MEGATONS of water slamming
: into them without even tilting a little, let alone buckling and

: crumbling like paper-mach .

Heh. Well, when I saw the scene, my first thought, instantly, was that
"oh, we're going to see the Statue of Liberty torn into copper shards
and iron pretzels like a wet paper sack fully of bendy straws run over by
a semi". Was surprised when it wasn't. Upon reflection, was surprised
that I was surprised.

: There were a few good lines that should be mentioned
: [.. actual mention omitted ..]

Heh. They almost sound worth it.
As long as one can brace oneself for the surrounding idiocy.

James Gassaway

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May 30, 2004, 4:56:35 PM5/30/04
to
"Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:4Ojuc.18193$L.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

>
> I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those
ideas...I
> know that the theatre
> I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border
and
> ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)
>
Here in California there was laughter and some mild cheering at that. The
biggest laugh at the showing I saw was how the US got Mexico to reopen the
border.

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.


James Gassaway

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May 30, 2004, 4:59:43 PM5/30/04
to
"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote in message
news:jjfkb0pefo9d1u64c...@4ax.com...

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:05:02 -0700, Lee DeRaud
> <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:41:29 -0500, John F. Eldredge
> ><jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I saw the movie yesterday. The massive storm in the movie
> >>(similiar to a hurricane, but larger) had strong downdrafts in the
> >>eye,
> >>bringing down air from the troposphere cold enough to cause
> >>flash-freezing at ground level, rather than the strong updrafts in
> >>the eye of a real hurricane. This should have resulted in the
> >>opposite of a storm surge, lowering local sea level rather than
> >>raising it.
> >
> >I thought "storm surge" was wind-driven, not pressure-driven.
> >(But I admit my meteorology-fu is weak.)
>
> As I understand it, the storm surge is driven by both the wind and
> the lower air pressure at the eye. I am not a meteorologist either.
>
You mean it _wasn't_ caused by the sudden rise in sea level from the ice
shelves melting?


(Ow! Need to remember to not stick my tongue in my cheek so hard.)

JoatSimeon

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May 30, 2004, 5:26:15 PM5/30/04
to
>The
>biggest laugh at the showing I saw was how the US got Mexico to reopen the
>border.

-- actually, if a complete relocation was necessary, the migration would
probably start with guys in tanks.

JoatSimeon

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May 30, 2004, 5:34:07 PM5/30/04
to
Nobody in the films seems to have noticed that most of China would be covered
in ice too and that the bulk of India's cropland would be out of production.
(See the snowstorm in New Delhi.)

Or that global food supply would be well and truly screwed by the removal of
the most productive mechanized temperate-zone farming regions, even allowing
for a fairly massive die-off reducing demand.

Mexico imports a lot of its basic foodstuffs, for example; and presumably the
climatic effects would be severe outside the area covered with snow and ice.
It couldn't feed its own people, much less them and 150 million Americans too.

I doubt Argentina and Australia would be able to take up the slack.

Bill Snyder

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May 30, 2004, 5:43:31 PM5/30/04
to

In which case, we are almost instantly back to the Mexican Army not
having any tanks. ("_That's_ not a knife . . .")

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]

John F. Eldredge

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May 30, 2004, 6:26:35 PM5/30/04
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:59:43 GMT, "James Gassaway"
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>"John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote in message
>news:jjfkb0pefo9d1u64c...@4ax.com...
>>

>> On Sun, 30 May 2004 12:05:02 -0700, Lee DeRaud
>> <lee.d...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sun, 30 May 2004 13:41:29 -0500, John F. Eldredge
>> ><jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I saw the movie yesterday. The massive storm in the movie
>> >>(similiar to a hurricane, but larger) had strong downdrafts in
>> >>the eye,
>> >>bringing down air from the troposphere cold enough to cause
>> >>flash-freezing at ground level, rather than the strong updrafts
>> >>in the eye of a real hurricane. This should have resulted in
>> >>the opposite of a storm surge, lowering local sea level rather
>> >>than raising it.
>> >
>> >I thought "storm surge" was wind-driven, not pressure-driven.
>> >(But I admit my meteorology-fu is weak.)
>>
>> As I understand it, the storm surge is driven by both the wind and
>> the lower air pressure at the eye. I am not a meteorologist
>> either.
>>
>You mean it _wasn't_ caused by the sudden rise in sea level from the
>ice shelves melting?
>
>(Ow! Need to remember to not stick my tongue in my cheek so hard.)

Good point. The science in _The Day after Tomorrow_ was better than
the science in _Waterworld_. Of course, that isn't saying very much.

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Pete McCutchen

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May 30, 2004, 6:33:22 PM5/30/04
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I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably
intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
what we'd been told about the creatures.
--

Pete McCutchen

Pete McCutchen

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May 30, 2004, 6:33:23 PM5/30/04
to
On 30 May 2004 11:22:33 -0700, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
wrote:

>Dreamer <dre...@dreamstrike.com> writes:


>
>>On 5/30/04 6:44 AM, in article
>>4Ojuc.18193$L.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "Eden R" <ed...@zip.com.au>
>>wrote:
>
>>> I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...I
>>> know that the theatre
>>> I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border and
>>> ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)
>
>>Mostly we won't.
>
>>I find it very interesting that this little morality play regarding
>>Americans trying to cross into Mexico and being rejected is viewed as so
>>cosmically just by many people.
>
>>I assure you that the Mexican Army would be there with tanks and machine
>>guns and would repel all such attempted border crossers with deadly force.
>
>
>Except for the slight detail that the Mexican Army doesn't actually *have*
>any tanks...

Right. I don't know what shape the National Guard is in in this film,
but I'm quite certain that the military forces now in Texas would
suffice to conquer Mexico, if necessary.
--

Pete McCutchen

John F. Eldredge

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May 30, 2004, 6:34:44 PM5/30/04
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Argentina and Australia would probably be covered in snow as well.
The screen-writers seemed to think that it was possible to have a
single-hemisphere ice age, rather than the entire planet getting
colder. I would expect severe storms on a world-wide basis until the
new climate stabilized.

I have heard mention before of the mammoths found frozen with summer
vegetation in their stomachs, but the accounts I read didn't make it
clear whether temperate-zone vegetation was meant, or the sort of
tundra vegetation that you might expect if the animals were in an
area close to the glaciated zones. If the latter were true, then the
idea of their having been trapped by a summer snowstorm would be more
plausible.

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Wayne Throop

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May 30, 2004, 6:45:05 PM5/30/04
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I'm not sure, but is it the notion that Tremors is awful in
the same way as, say, Waterworld (or alegedly tDAT)?
If so, I don't see it. Especially notable in that film is:

: Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net>
: I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably


: intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
: actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
: what we'd been told about the creatures.

the fact that the characters tackle the problem very practically,
with relatively little wailing and cowering, and then only when
wailing and cowering are understandable. And no backing into
darkened rooms or going down into the basement cliches.

IMO anyways.

And... just what was wrong with the science in that film?
If we neglect the speed of movement underground, I saw relatively
little else to object to. And that's rare. This was largely
accomplished by the characters simply admitting they didn't know
things they didn't know, instead of having a Wise Old Scientist
character spout technobabble.

Of course, these virtues were mostly ruined in the sequels.
And especially in the TV series. Plus no Reba McEntire, alas.


"Can you fly?"

Damien R. Sullivan

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May 30, 2004, 7:16:53 PM5/30/04
to
Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:

>In which case, we are almost instantly back to the Mexican Army not
>having any tanks. ("_That's_ not a knife . . .")

Except that they do. An air force as well. Mexico spends $4 billion on the
military. (1% GDP)

Possibly the Texas National Guard could win, but there'd have to be at least
some effort.

-xx- Damien X-)

David Bilek

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May 30, 2004, 7:59:46 PM5/30/04
to

Yeah, but number 2 did have some really good lines for Bert.

"I FEEL... I have been DENIED.... CRITICAL... NEED-TO-KNOW...
INFORMATION!"

-David

David Bilek

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May 30, 2004, 8:07:53 PM5/30/04
to
dasu...@cs.indiana.edu (Damien R. Sullivan) wrote:

>Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>In which case, we are almost instantly back to the Mexican Army not
>>having any tanks. ("_That's_ not a knife . . .")
>
>Except that they do. An air force as well. Mexico spends $4 billion on the
>military. (1% GDP)
>

Um, no. It's true that Mexico spends $4 billion on their armed
forces, but it doesn't follow that they therefore must have tanks.

The Mexican Army has no Main Battle Tanks. None. The closest thing
they have are a few dozen M-8s which are AFAIK really just armored
cars.

-David

Christopher Adams

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May 30, 2004, 8:10:48 PM5/30/04
to
John F. Eldredge wrote:
>
> Argentina and Australia would probably be covered in snow as well.

There are posters here in Sydney advertising the film with a picture of the
Opera House covered in snow and ice.

This is probably more scary than the Statue of Liberty waist-deep in snow and
ice; at least it snows in New York City. We barely get hailstorms here.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real cunt.
- Bill


Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 30, 2004, 8:41:25 PM5/30/04
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:07:53 GMT, David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>The Mexican Army has no Main Battle Tanks. None. The closest thing
>they have are a few dozen M-8s which are AFAIK really just armored
>cars.

They're officially light tanks.

You know, no one here said "main battle tanks." Just "tanks."


John F. Eldredge

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May 30, 2004, 8:44:34 PM5/30/04
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:10:48 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacde...@yahoo.invalid> wrote:

>John F. Eldredge wrote:
>>
>> Argentina and Australia would probably be covered in snow as well.
>
>There are posters here in Sydney advertising the film with a picture
>of the Opera House covered in snow and ice.
>
>This is probably more scary than the Statue of Liberty waist-deep in
>snow and ice; at least it snows in New York City. We barely get
>hailstorms here.

The movie has a number of scenes looking down from the Space Station.
The visible glaciation is Northern Hemisphere only, and the only
scenes set outside North America are in Europe and (briefly) in Japan
and New Delhi. I wonder if they are going to release an alternate
version for Australia, or if there are only localized posters?

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David Bilek

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May 30, 2004, 8:58:37 PM5/30/04
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 May 2004 00:07:53 GMT, David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The Mexican Army has no Main Battle Tanks. None. The closest thing
>>they have are a few dozen M-8s which are AFAIK really just armored
>>cars.
>
>They're officially light tanks.
>

The Mexican Army officially *calls* them light tanks, but that doesn't
mean anything.. Everything I've ever read calls the M-8 Greyhound an
"armored car".

e.g. http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m8.php3

>You know, no one here said "main battle tanks." Just "tanks."

Yes, true. But I am rejecting the notion that an m-8 qualifies as a
"tank".

-David

Paul Ciszek

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May 30, 2004, 9:23:17 PM5/30/04
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In article <4Ojuc.18193$L.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,

Eden R <ed...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>
>I will be interested to see how Americans resond to some of those ideas...I
>know that the theatre
>I just left in Sydney cheered when Americans were stopped at the border and
>ILLEGALLY crossed the Rio Grande into Mexico :)

Oh, it was a popular scene with the group I saw the movie with. But my
favorite line was:
"I am the president of the electronics club AND the mathematics club,
as well as the chess club. If you think there's a bigger nerd here,
just point him out to me."

--
Please reply to: |"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea
pciszek at panix dot com | and really don't care. It's not that important.
Autoreply is disabled | It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02


how...@brazee.net

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May 30, 2004, 9:31:25 PM5/30/04
to

On 30-May-2004, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

> >The Mexican Army has no Main Battle Tanks. None. The closest thing
> >they have are a few dozen M-8s which are AFAIK really just armored
> >cars.
>
> They're officially light tanks.
>
> You know, no one here said "main battle tanks." Just "tanks."

I bet they also have water tanks.

Paul Ciszek

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May 30, 2004, 9:31:33 PM5/30/04
to

In article <9unkb01js1rg9imof...@4ax.com>,

John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
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>
>On 30 May 2004 21:34:07 GMT, joats...@aol.com (JoatSimeon) wrote:
>
>>Nobody in the films seems to have noticed that most of China would
>>be covered in ice too and that the bulk of India's cropland would be
>>out of production. (See the snowstorm in New Delhi.)
>>
>>Or that global food supply would be well and truly screwed by the
>>removal of the most productive mechanized temperate-zone farming
>>regions, even allowing for a fairly massive die-off reducing demand.
>>
>>Mexico imports a lot of its basic foodstuffs, for example; and
>>presumably the climatic effects would be severe outside the area
>>covered with snow and ice. It couldn't feed its own people, much
>>less them and 150 million Americans too.
>>
>>I doubt Argentina and Australia would be able to take up the slack.

I immediately thought of that too. There would be cannibalism within
a week. Even if the shift caused some deserts to become farmable,
it would take much too long.

>Argentina and Australia would probably be covered in snow as well.
>The screen-writers seemed to think that it was possible to have a
>single-hemisphere ice age, rather than the entire planet getting
>colder. I would expect severe storms on a world-wide basis until the
>new climate stabilized.

Were Argentina and Australia icebound during the last glaciation?
The southern hemisphere is laid out very differently from the north.

James Nicoll

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May 30, 2004, 9:42:21 PM5/30/04
to
In article <fhckb05gmremdkk6d...@4ax.com>,
Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> It occurs to me that the Circumpolar Current is just sitting there,
>>waiting to be used to provide power to the growing economies of the South.
>>One wonders at what point the power-draw begins to have global implications.
>>The CPC cools the entire planet, so from a Terraforming Canada POV, shutting
>>off would help. Pity about the Gulf Stream possibly shutting down but you
>>can't break eggs without making an omlet.
>
>I'd think about taking down some of the Rockies. That would allow
>Pacific moisture and warmer air to penetrate further into the interior
>of the continent.
>
>It would ruin that atmospheric function that brings warmer air up into
>Europe, but like you said concerning omelets...

One of my texts on Neandertals has a map of Europe and it's
pretty much all glaciers anyway.
--
"The keywords for tonight are Caution and Flammability."
JFK, _Bubba Ho Tep_

James Nicoll

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May 30, 2004, 10:04:11 PM5/30/04
to
In article <fhckb05gmremdkk6d...@4ax.com>,
Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> It occurs to me that the Circumpolar Current is just sitting there,
>>waiting to be used to provide power to the growing economies of the South.
>>One wonders at what point the power-draw begins to have global implications.
>>The CPC cools the entire planet, so from a Terraforming Canada POV, shutting
>>off would help. Pity about the Gulf Stream possibly shutting down but you
>>can't break eggs without making an omlet.
>
>I'd think about taking down some of the Rockies. That would allow
>Pacific moisture and warmer air to penetrate further into the interior
>of the continent.
>
What if we just melt the ice on Antarctica and Greenland (freeing
them for terraforming) and flood the center of the continent? Would that
help?

David Silberstein

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May 30, 2004, 10:05:14 PM5/30/04
to
In article <10859...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>
>: David Silberstein <davids_aat_k...@foilspam.invalid>

>
>: There were a few good lines that should be mentioned
>: [.. actual mention omitted ..]
>
>Heh. They almost sound worth it.
>As long as one can brace oneself for the surrounding idiocy.
>

Well, that's a judgement call I can't make for you. Although
I will note that the less you pay to see it, the less you will
feel like you have wasted your money. And if you see it with a
group of friends (and make sure they all know what to expect),
everyone will have a chance to find creative ways of expressing
mockery of said idiocy.

Dreamer

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May 30, 2004, 10:29:29 PM5/30/04
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On 5/30/04 7:58 PM, in article si0lb0hbcsjjf47an...@4ax.com,
"David Bilek" <dtb...@comcast.net> wrote:

As instigator of the ruckus I officially plead ignorance and am willing, as
a peace gesture, to restate my hypothesis as "The Mexican Army would be at
the border to meet them with armored cars and machine guns."

D

Wayne Throop

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May 30, 2004, 11:07:15 PM5/30/04
to
: Dreamer <dre...@dreamstrike.com>
: As instigator of the ruckus I officially plead ignorance and am

: willing, as a peace gesture, to restate my hypothesis as "The Mexican
: Army would be at the border to meet them with armored cars and machine
: guns."

Or hey, even just WWII "rat patrol" jeeps. Or humvees. Or whatnot.
That's the traditional way to discourage hordes of fleeing refugees
these days, innit?

On the other hand... that may not give much of a firepower advantage
over a group of Texans in pickups, so maybe the armored cars would
be a good idea... a lot of them.

Mark Atwood

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May 30, 2004, 11:11:56 PM5/30/04
to
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>> ... "Tremors" is particularly superior ...

>
> I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably
> intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
> actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
> what we'd been told about the creatures.

It's also the *only* movie I've seen that comes to immediate memory
that has *correct* gun usage, both how they are kept, the kinds of
people who actually would have a weapons cache, how they are used, how
they are safely handled, and the firepower they have.

--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@pobox.com | you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus

Phil Fraering

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May 30, 2004, 9:43:23 PM5/30/04
to
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:

Re: Tremors

>I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably
>intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
>actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
>what we'd been told about the creatures.
>--

If you think about it, Tremors comes close to being the ideal
anti-monster/horror movie.

--
pgf

James Gassaway

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May 30, 2004, 11:40:20 PM5/30/04
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"JoatSimeon" <joats...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040530172615...@mb-m05.aol.com...

Oh, I thought of that while watching. But this is the crowd that thinks the
Kyoto Treaty is a good thing for the US making the movie. Do you really
think they are going to approve of an all-out invasion just to save much of
the US population?

--
Multiversal Mercenaries. You name it, we kill it. Any time, any reality.


Keith Morrison

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May 30, 2004, 11:20:28 PM5/30/04
to
Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>>>> "Tremors" and "Klowns" both had a better grounding in science, so be
>>>> ready.
>>>
>>>"Tremors" is particularly superior in that the geologist never
>>>pretends to be anything but a geologist. She can make intelligent
>>>guesses outside her field, but it is plain they are only guesses. I
>>>think the actress did a wonderful job as well as being cute.<g>
>>
>>Not to mention that when a question comes up regarding the biology of
>>the creatures she gets annoyed when everyone turns to *her* expecting
>>an answer.
>>
>>A great rip at the "scientist who is an expert in anything" that is
>>typical of SF movies.
>
>I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably
>intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
>actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
>what we'd been told about the creatures.

No argument. The writers did a fine job in coming up with creatures
that were a real threat to ordinary people but could be overcome by
said ordinary people using tools at their disposal.

--
Keith

David Bilek

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May 31, 2004, 12:23:43 AM5/31/04
to

Well, they have about 40 to cover a few thousand miles of border! And
I would guess a 50 caliber round will probably penetrate them.

-David

Chad Irby

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May 31, 2004, 12:01:59 AM5/31/04
to
In article <m2pt8lc...@amsu.blackfedora.com>,
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Pete McCutchen <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >>> ... "Tremors" is particularly superior ...
> >
> > I also enjoyed the fact that the people responded in a reasonably
> > intelligent fashion once the danger became apparent, and that they
> > actually managed to solve their problem in a manner consistent with
> > what we'd been told about the creatures.
>
> It's also the *only* movie I've seen that comes to immediate memory
> that has *correct* gun usage, both how they are kept, the kinds of
> people who actually would have a weapons cache,

"Rumpus room." <snort>

The pan over from what looks to be a simple basement to the weapons wall
is one of the best bits in the flick.

> how they are used, how
> they are safely handled, and the firepower they have.

The second movie (set in Mexico with the "shriekers") has some funny
bits, too. Like when to make Really Sure that whatever you're shooting
at doesn't have something behind it you don't want punctured (especially
with a .50 rifle).

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Lee DeRaud

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May 31, 2004, 12:32:17 AM5/31/04
to
On Sun, 30 May 2004 23:59:46 GMT, David Bilek <dtb...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Tremors]


>Yeah, but number 2 did have some really good lines for Bert.
>
>"I FEEL... I have been DENIED.... CRITICAL... NEED-TO-KNOW...
>INFORMATION!"

"I am COMPLETELY out of ammunition! <very quietly> That's never
happened before."

Lee

Pete McCutchen

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May 31, 2004, 12:39:18 AM5/31/04
to
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:29:29 -0500, Dreamer <dre...@dreamstrike.com>
wrote:

It's a big border, you know. How many armored vehicles do they have?

In any case, the Texas National Guard, together with regular Army
units now in Texas, would find it relatively easy to conquer Mexico.
--

Pete McCutchen

Lee DeRaud

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May 31, 2004, 12:41:17 AM5/31/04
to
On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:41:25 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
wrote: