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Literary inheritances: Ability or property?
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Joe Bernstein
Dec 1, 2012, 8:37:49 PM12/1/12
to j...@sfbooks.com
Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
*or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
posthumous *editor* set in the world of Wright's Islandia.
Nor is it more common in more truly non-modern works. The <Roman de la
Rose>, to take only the most famous of mediaeval continued works, seems
not to have been a family thing. Vergil's literary executors weren't
his kids. Firdausi and Daqiqi weren't related. In fact, I can think
of only two examples:
1) I don't know anything about the evidence, but apparently the last
two plays by Euripides (<Bacchae> and <Iphigenia at Aulis>) were
presented by a relative.
2) Sima Qian's history of the former Han dynasty was a task inherited
from his father.
We don't expect talent to be inherited (although in fact both musical
and literary families galore exist). We do expect property to be
inherited. The above suggests that before modern times, intellectual
property tended not to pass to heirs the way physical property did.
Mundanely, I wonder to what extent any of these inheritors' works are
any good. (I've read just a bit of Todd McCaffrey's work - logistics
keep interfering with the sequential read-through I'd prefer - and
note that he's being very conservative, restricting himself, near as
I can tell, to plot shapes matching those his mother used, and to
older parts of Pern's history. So it at least *looks* like he's
intentionally avoiding anything comparable to her grand, if flawed,
design of depicting an industrial revolution in process.)
A little less mundanely, I wonder what possibilities this pattern
offers. I mean, *in general* sequels by other hands have no high
reputation; my list above supplies only Firdausi and Sima as counter-
examples, and while Ruth Plumly Thompson, especially, is praised for
good Oz books, they don't seem to win anywhere near as much praise
as Baum's own. So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
And finally, there's the subject-line question. I find myself
without easy bloviations on it, but seems to me there must be plenty
of fodder in the question of inheriting not the *proceeds* of
artistic work, but the work itself.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, writer j...@sfbooks.com
keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
*or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
posthumous *editor* set in the world of Wright's Islandia.
Nor is it more common in more truly non-modern works. The <Roman de la
Rose>, to take only the most famous of mediaeval continued works, seems
not to have been a family thing. Vergil's literary executors weren't
his kids. Firdausi and Daqiqi weren't related. In fact, I can think
of only two examples:
1) I don't know anything about the evidence, but apparently the last
two plays by Euripides (<Bacchae> and <Iphigenia at Aulis>) were
presented by a relative.
2) Sima Qian's history of the former Han dynasty was a task inherited
from his father.
We don't expect talent to be inherited (although in fact both musical
and literary families galore exist). We do expect property to be
inherited. The above suggests that before modern times, intellectual
property tended not to pass to heirs the way physical property did.
Mundanely, I wonder to what extent any of these inheritors' works are
any good. (I've read just a bit of Todd McCaffrey's work - logistics
keep interfering with the sequential read-through I'd prefer - and
note that he's being very conservative, restricting himself, near as
I can tell, to plot shapes matching those his mother used, and to
older parts of Pern's history. So it at least *looks* like he's
intentionally avoiding anything comparable to her grand, if flawed,
design of depicting an industrial revolution in process.)
A little less mundanely, I wonder what possibilities this pattern
offers. I mean, *in general* sequels by other hands have no high
reputation; my list above supplies only Firdausi and Sima as counter-
examples, and while Ruth Plumly Thompson, especially, is praised for
good Oz books, they don't seem to win anywhere near as much praise
as Baum's own. So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
And finally, there's the subject-line question. I find myself
without easy bloviations on it, but seems to me there must be plenty
of fodder in the question of inheriting not the *proceeds* of
artistic work, but the work itself.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, writer j...@sfbooks.com
Kurt Busiek
Dec 1, 2012, 8:56:22 PM12/1/12
to
On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic
strips.
In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring,
by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in
the work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
status after being trained for the gig.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Kip Williams
Dec 1, 2012, 9:50:01 PM12/1/12
to
Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/1/12 8:37 PM:
their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
really asked anyway.
Kip W
rasfw
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
> of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
> work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
> of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
> only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
> *or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
> posthumous *editor* set in the world of Wright's Islandia.
>
> Nor is it more common in more truly non-modern works. The <Roman de la
> Rose>, to take only the most famous of mediaeval continued works, seems
> not to have been a family thing.
Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
> of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
> work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
> of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
> only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
> *or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
> posthumous *editor* set in the world of Wright's Islandia.
>
> Nor is it more common in more truly non-modern works. The <Roman de la
> Rose>, to take only the most famous of mediaeval continued works, seems
> not to have been a family thing.
their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
really asked anyway.
Kip W
rasfw
Kip Williams
Dec 1, 2012, 9:50:44 PM12/1/12
to
Kip Williams wrote, On 12/1/12 9:50 PM:
Could have saved time by scrolling to Kurt's post. Sometimes I think of it.
Kip W
rasfw
Kip W
rasfw
Brian M. Scott
Dec 1, 2012, 11:00:58 PM12/1/12
to
On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:37:49 -0800 (PST), Joe Bernstein
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote in
<news:67137ea8-11ad-4cfa...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his
> daughter is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd
> McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I forget who-all else have
> also recently inherited worlds.
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M.
> Stirling makes much of how inherited work better fits
> non-modern ways of life than chosen work. But actually,
> I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples of
> this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction.
In general he's entirely correct: sons generally did follow
their father's occupations. I'm behind in that series, but
I find it very hard to believe that he applies this to the
writing of stories set in specific fictional universes.
[...]
Brian
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote in
<news:67137ea8-11ad-4cfa...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his
> daughter is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd
> McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I forget who-all else have
> also recently inherited worlds.
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M.
> Stirling makes much of how inherited work better fits
> non-modern ways of life than chosen work. But actually,
> I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples of
> this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction.
their father's occupations. I'm behind in that series, but
I find it very hard to believe that he applies this to the
writing of stories set in specific fictional universes.
[...]
Brian
Lynn McGuire
Dec 1, 2012, 11:37:29 PM12/1/12
to
Somedays I think that the new BC is better.
Usually though, good but not as good.
I run a computer software company that my Dad
started in the 1960s. I am definitely not as good
as him. But, I've got a lot more competition than
he did.
Lynn
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 2, 2012, 12:39:36 AM12/2/12
to
et fils.
--
Now available on Amazon or B&N: One-Eyed Jack.
Greg Kraft could see ghosts. That didn't mean he could stop them...
Kurt Busiek
Dec 2, 2012, 1:06:54 AM12/2/12
to
On 2012-12-02 04:37:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
> On 12/1/2012 7:56 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring, by
>> the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in the
>> work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
> On 12/1/2012 7:56 PM, Kurt Busiek wrote:
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring, by
>> the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in the
>> work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
> Isnt the BC comic strip a consortium of the kids?
Maybe. I haven't seen it for years.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 2, 2012, 1:09:46 AM12/2/12
to
On 2012-12-02 05:39:36 +0000, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:
> On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic
>> strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring,
>> by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in
>> the work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
> Nor is this an entirely new phenomenon -- consider Alexandre Dumas pere
> et fils.
Did Dumas fils continue his father's creations, or apprentice on them?
> On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic
>> strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring,
>> by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in
>> the work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
> Nor is this an entirely new phenomenon -- consider Alexandre Dumas pere
> et fils.
I'd thought he followed him into the writing life, but I didn't know it
was as much in his footsteps as the examples above…
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 2, 2012, 1:12:40 AM12/2/12
to
some of his father's stories.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 2, 2012, 1:16:37 AM12/2/12
to
Joseph Nebus
Dec 2, 2012, 1:26:34 AM12/2/12
to
In <ulzus.4778$le6...@newsfe22.iad> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> writes:
>Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/1/12 8:37 PM:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
>> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
>> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/1/12 8:37 PM:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
>> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
>> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
>their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>really asked anyway.
And heck, everyone knows of how Family Circus gets drawn by
>their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>really asked anyway.
little Billy Keane, age 7.
--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
Current Entry: Quick Little Calculus Puzzle http://wp.me/p1RYhY-ms
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahasuerus
Dec 2, 2012, 2:54:03 AM12/2/12
to
On Dec 1, 8:37 pm, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
> of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
> work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
> of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
> only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
> *or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
> posthumous *editor* set in the world of Wright's Islandia. [snip]
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> In recent volumes of his "Emberverse" series, S. M. Stirling makes much
> of how inherited work better fits non-modern ways of life than chosen
> work. But actually, I'm having trouble thinking of less-modern examples
> of this pattern, inside or outside speculative fiction. Inside, the
> only spec-fic example obvious to me is a real stretch to call non-modern
> *or* "inherited"; this is the three novels Austin Tappan Wright's
Michel Verne completed a number of his father's manuscripts, rewrote
others and even published some of his own work under Jules's name --
see, e.g., http://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/verne_michel
jack....@gmail.com
Dec 2, 2012, 6:01:13 AM12/2/12
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic
>> strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring,
>> by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in
>> the work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
>Nor is this an entirely new phenomenon -- consider Alexandre Dumas pere
>et fils.
Pliny the Elder and Pliny the Younger?
>On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>>
>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other inheritor
>>> suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>>
>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne for
>> Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of comic
>> strips.
>>
>> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving job of
>> following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
>>
>> What all these examples have in common is that each of the offspring,
>> by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent years assisting in
>> the work, so they're essentially apprentices graduating to professional
>> status after being trained for the gig.
>
>Nor is this an entirely new phenomenon -- consider Alexandre Dumas pere
>et fils.
The Elder Edda and the Prose Edda? :)
Christopher Tolkein seems to treat his inheritance as still his
father's property, rather than his own playground.
--
-Jack
Kip Williams
Dec 2, 2012, 9:36:23 AM12/2/12
to
Kurt Busiek wrote, On 12/2/12 1:06 AM:
now is "Mason." They originally had a plan of recycling art elements,
but I'm pretty sure that went by the wayside early on. The quality of
the strip jumped from the sadly wretched state it had fallen to �
particularly sad considering that the earliest years of the strip are
among the freshest and funniest newspaper comics ever. In its later
days, it was mostly grim and contrived anachronism gags. Fonzie!
Microwaves! Oh, and religion. Two or three times a year, Hart would hit
one out of the park just to show that this was all coming from the same
hands that beheld the invention of the wheel and the discovery of water.
The Mason outfit has settled into a newer rut, still leaning heavily on
the high-larity of cavemen with credit cards (every so often, somebody
stumbles anew on the theory that the strip takes place after WW3), and
the characters have started to morph a little to suit someone's
astigmatism. It's nowhere near the genius level it started out at, but
it's still funnier than where it had sunk. A dog was introduced, with
generally good results.
I tend to think of it as a new strip with old characters. To distinguish
it from Hart's work, I call it "AD" for "After Death."
Kip W
rasfw
> On 2012-12-02 04:37:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
>> Isnt the BC comic strip a consortium of the kids?
>
> Maybe. I haven't seen it for years.
BC was continued by a daughter and son-in-law of Johnny Hart. The byline
>
>> Isnt the BC comic strip a consortium of the kids?
>
> Maybe. I haven't seen it for years.
now is "Mason." They originally had a plan of recycling art elements,
but I'm pretty sure that went by the wayside early on. The quality of
the strip jumped from the sadly wretched state it had fallen to �
particularly sad considering that the earliest years of the strip are
among the freshest and funniest newspaper comics ever. In its later
days, it was mostly grim and contrived anachronism gags. Fonzie!
Microwaves! Oh, and religion. Two or three times a year, Hart would hit
one out of the park just to show that this was all coming from the same
hands that beheld the invention of the wheel and the discovery of water.
The Mason outfit has settled into a newer rut, still leaning heavily on
the high-larity of cavemen with credit cards (every so often, somebody
stumbles anew on the theory that the strip takes place after WW3), and
the characters have started to morph a little to suit someone's
astigmatism. It's nowhere near the genius level it started out at, but
it's still funnier than where it had sunk. A dog was introduced, with
generally good results.
I tend to think of it as a new strip with old characters. To distinguish
it from Hart's work, I call it "AD" for "After Death."
Kip W
rasfw
Kip Williams
Dec 2, 2012, 9:45:52 AM12/2/12
to
Joseph Nebus wrote, On 12/2/12 1:26 AM:
Portsmouth, Virginia, before the movie came out. A 30-minute program was
announced, which I predicted would be a five-minute trailer plus a
25-minute talk about the many uses of corn. I was right about the
trailer. The talk was a sort of slide show about how they decided to
represent Virginia ("horizontals and verticals") with animator/director
Glen Keane.
After it was over, I stole a moment of Keane's time to engage in a bit
of reporting for my animation apa. "Did -any- of the Keane kids ever
have -anything- to do with any of the Little Billy strips?" I asked him,
while he was trying to talk to someone else. He shook his head. "Dad
always says those are the hardest ones to draw." I thanked him and moved
along.
Now, of course, they're drawn by little Jeffy Keane, who has also
somehow become the star of the strip. I remember noticing a change in
the drawings a couple of weeks before J. Keane started getting a byline.
It would be more accurate to say "redrawn" than drawn, as there is a
degree of recycling that would make the current series of 1991 Archie
reprint strips proud (their theme is ecology this month), and which
would impress even Beetle Bailey (which freely dips, unannounced, into
its own past). Readers at the Comics Curmudgeon are astonished when an
apparently all-new panel shows up.
(Appy polly loggies for using your joke as a footnote hook. I hereby
certify that I recognized it as humor and even snorted.)
Kip W
rasfw
> In <ulzus.4778$le6...@newsfe22.iad> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
>> their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>> page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>> the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>> found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>> year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>> really asked anyway.
>
> And heck, everyone knows of how Family Circus gets drawn by
> little Billy Keane, age 7.
Heh. A friend and I somehow got to see a preview of POCAHONTAS in
>
>> Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
>> their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>> page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>> the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>> found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>> year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>> really asked anyway.
>
> And heck, everyone knows of how Family Circus gets drawn by
> little Billy Keane, age 7.
Portsmouth, Virginia, before the movie came out. A 30-minute program was
announced, which I predicted would be a five-minute trailer plus a
25-minute talk about the many uses of corn. I was right about the
trailer. The talk was a sort of slide show about how they decided to
represent Virginia ("horizontals and verticals") with animator/director
Glen Keane.
After it was over, I stole a moment of Keane's time to engage in a bit
of reporting for my animation apa. "Did -any- of the Keane kids ever
have -anything- to do with any of the Little Billy strips?" I asked him,
while he was trying to talk to someone else. He shook his head. "Dad
always says those are the hardest ones to draw." I thanked him and moved
along.
Now, of course, they're drawn by little Jeffy Keane, who has also
somehow become the star of the strip. I remember noticing a change in
the drawings a couple of weeks before J. Keane started getting a byline.
It would be more accurate to say "redrawn" than drawn, as there is a
degree of recycling that would make the current series of 1991 Archie
reprint strips proud (their theme is ecology this month), and which
would impress even Beetle Bailey (which freely dips, unannounced, into
its own past). Readers at the Comics Curmudgeon are astonished when an
apparently all-new panel shows up.
(Appy polly loggies for using your joke as a footnote hook. I hereby
certify that I recognized it as humor and even snorted.)
Kip W
rasfw
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 2, 2012, 10:03:14 AM12/2/12
to
In article <t3dmb856jja56u643...@4ax.com>,
Correcting to be polite: That's Tolkien. And yes, he treats his
father's opera omnia as valuable old historical manuscripts that
he is editing.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
father's opera omnia as valuable old historical manuscripts that
he is editing.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 2, 2012, 10:03:47 AM12/2/12
to
In article <k9esap$9ra$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>In <ulzus.4778$le6...@newsfe22.iad> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/1/12 8:37 PM:
>>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
>>> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
>>> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
>>Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
>>their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>>page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>>the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>>found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>>year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>>really asked anyway.
>
> And heck, everyone knows of how Family Circus gets drawn by
>little Billy Keane, age 7.
Little Billy Keane is probably more like 57 by now.
>In <ulzus.4778$le6...@newsfe22.iad> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/1/12 8:37 PM:
>>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter is in
>>> keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert, and I
>>> forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
>>Non-written SF, but cartoonists Mark Bode and Monte Wolverton have done
>>their damndest to carry on for their deceased dads. The current funnies
>>page is also full of family dynasties, like the Walker-Browne axis, and
>>the inheritors of Marmaduke, Ziggy, Crock (special case, because the son
>>found that continuing his dad's work was depressing and stopped after a
>>year), B.C., and it hurts my brain to keep thinking of these and nobody
>>really asked anyway.
>
> And heck, everyone knows of how Family Circus gets drawn by
>little Billy Keane, age 7.
Joe Bernstein
Dec 2, 2012, 7:57:08 PM12/2/12
to j...@sfbooks.com
of a "fictional universe" as an oldtimer sort of thing that
"Changelings" had a hard time grasping or caring about. He does make
remarks about how Juniper Mackenzie's children sort of parcel out
aspects of her work as they grow up. But part of my point, obscured
in the writing, was the shift from inheriting a literary tendency in
*general* (for which, as an ancient example, I could've given Statius,
whose father was a local rhetorician and poet, and of course Pliny as
already noted), to inheriting actual fictional universes.
(One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
of a femtogenre.)
Joe Bernstein
Dec 2, 2012, 8:25:32 PM12/2/12
to
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:01:13 AM UTC-8, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
> >> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
> >>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
> >>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other
> >>> inheritor suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
> >> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris
> >> Browne for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in
> >> the world of comic strips.
And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
> >> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
> >>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
> >>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other
> >>> inheritor suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
> >> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris
> >> Browne for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in
> >> the world of comic strips.
seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
although come to think of it I know of a sort-of-example - Miyazaki
Hayao and Miyazaki Goro, a contentious possible inheritance not of a
specific fictional universe but of, well, a place in a collaborative
enterprise, if that's the right way to describe what goes on between
them in Studio Ghibli.
> >> In prose writing, Felix Francis has done a decent-and-improving
> >> job of following in the footsteps of his father Dick.
> >>
> >> What all these examples have in common is that each of the
> >> offspring, by the end of the primary creator's life, had spent
> >> years assisting in the work, so they're essentially apprentices
> >> graduating to professional status after being trained for the gig.
have no idea as regards Brian Herbert; Rhianna Pratchett appears, from
Wikipedia, not to be an example, but of course that may be wrong.
> >Nor is this an entirely new phenomenon -- consider Alexandre Dumas
> >pere et fils.
Burney: she abandoned novel-writing in favour of publishing her
father's memoirs.
> Pliny the Elder and Pliny the Younger?
elder was a scientist - though his surviving work sure doesn't read
as all that scientific, he paid for his observational efforts with
his life, so yes he was. The younger was a public official who
decorated his career by publishing his letters.)
> Christopher Tolk[ie]n seems to treat his inheritance as still his
> father's property, rather than his own playground.
Yeah, which is closer, I suppose, to the Euripides and Burney
examples; I can't claim enough familiarity with the Dumas and Verne
ones, but do note that Dumas fils didn't *maintain* his father's
fiction factory, partly because he succeeded more lastingly in drama
than his father had.
Kip Williams
Dec 2, 2012, 8:35:48 PM12/2/12
to
Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 8:25 PM:
Kip W
rasfw
> And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
> although come to think of it I know of a sort-of-example - Miyazaki
> Hayao and Miyazaki Goro, a contentious possible inheritance not of a
> specific fictional universe but of, well, a place in a collaborative
> enterprise, if that's the right way to describe what goes on between
> them in Studio Ghibli.
Hasn't John Romita, Jr., done work on Spider-Man?
> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
> although come to think of it I know of a sort-of-example - Miyazaki
> Hayao and Miyazaki Goro, a contentious possible inheritance not of a
> specific fictional universe but of, well, a place in a collaborative
> enterprise, if that's the right way to describe what goes on between
> them in Studio Ghibli.
Kip W
rasfw
Kip Williams
Dec 2, 2012, 8:37:59 PM12/2/12
to
Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 7:57 PM:
dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
Kip W
rasfw
> (One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
> of a femtogenre.)
"There's always the example of Victor Appleton III, who followed in his
> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
> of a femtogenre.)
dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
Kip W
rasfw
Kurt Busiek
Dec 2, 2012, 9:39:57 PM12/2/12
to
On 2012-12-03 01:25:32 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:01:13 AM UTC-8, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>>> On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>>>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>
>>>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other
>>>>> inheritor suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>
>>>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris
>>>> Browne for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in
>>>> the world of comic strips.
>
> And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
I'm not sure whether by "longer-form" you mean "story-strip" or "comic
> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:01:13 AM UTC-8, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>>> On 2012-12-01 20:56:22 -0500, Kurt Busiek said:
>
>>>> On 2012-12-02 01:37:49 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
>
>>>>> So granted, nobody starts the Dune series in order
>>>>> to get to Brian Herbert's additions. But does any other
>>>>> inheritor suggest a chance for Ms. Pratchett to break the rule?
>
>>>> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris
>>>> Browne for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in
>>>> the world of comic strips.
>
> And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
book." At least in the US, comic books have generally been owned by the
publisher, not the talent. And story strips haven't exactly been a
financial bonanza.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 2, 2012, 9:41:05 PM12/2/12
to
Adam and Andy Kubert have drawn Sgt. Rock, as well, but it'd be more to
the point if they'd drawn Tor.
Kip Williams
Dec 2, 2012, 10:14:25 PM12/2/12
to
Kurt Busiek wrote, On 12/2/12 9:41 PM:
Kip W
rasfw
> On 2012-12-03 01:35:48 +0000, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 8:25 PM:
>>> And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
>>> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
>>> although come to think of it I know of a sort-of-example - Miyazaki
>>> Hayao and Miyazaki Goro, a contentious possible inheritance not of a
>>> specific fictional universe but of, well, a place in a collaborative
>>> enterprise, if that's the right way to describe what goes on between
>>> them in Studio Ghibli.
>>
>> Hasn't John Romita, Jr., done work on Spider-Man?
>
> Sure, but it's not as if he inherited the rights from his father.
Ah. I underestimated how literally the word was being applied.
>
>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 8:25 PM:
>>> And a bunch of other examples have been given. I notice that we've
>>> seen, however, no examples of this happening in longer-form comics,
>>> although come to think of it I know of a sort-of-example - Miyazaki
>>> Hayao and Miyazaki Goro, a contentious possible inheritance not of a
>>> specific fictional universe but of, well, a place in a collaborative
>>> enterprise, if that's the right way to describe what goes on between
>>> them in Studio Ghibli.
>>
>> Hasn't John Romita, Jr., done work on Spider-Man?
>
> Sure, but it's not as if he inherited the rights from his father.
Kip W
rasfw
Brian Palmer
Dec 3, 2012, 1:43:06 AM12/3/12
to
Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.com> writes:
> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne
> for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of
> comic strips.
Since people keep mentioning comic strips inheritance in the thread, I
> Brian Walker seemed to take over well for Mort Walker, Chris Browne
> for Dik Browne and Dean Young for Chic Young, all in the world of
> comic strips.
feel I should recommend Will McIntosh's _Hitchers_. The main character
is a comic strip artist who took over his grandfather's strip after
his grandfather had passed on; after a period of soul-searching, he
updated the strip to be somewhat more modern and it became a big
success.
Then events ensue, and he encounters his grandfather's ghost, who
isn't pleased with the strip's changes...
Fantastic book, and while this isn't the book's major question, one
thing it does tackle is whether heirs have an obligation to preserve
the original creators' intentions.
--
I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard.
jack....@gmail.com
Dec 3, 2012, 1:36:18 AM12/3/12
to
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>In article <t3dmb856jja56u643...@4ax.com>,
> <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Christopher Tolkein seems to treat his inheritance as still his
>>father's property, rather than his own playground.
>
>Correcting to be polite: That's Tolkien. And yes, he treats his
>father's opera omnia as valuable old historical manuscripts that
>he is editing.
It is my policy to mispell or mispronounce any name I come across. :)
>In article <t3dmb856jja56u643...@4ax.com>,
> <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Christopher Tolkein seems to treat his inheritance as still his
>>father's property, rather than his own playground.
>
>Correcting to be polite: That's Tolkien. And yes, he treats his
>father's opera omnia as valuable old historical manuscripts that
>he is editing.
By the way, is it pronounced KIN or KEEN?
--
-Jack
jack....@gmail.com
Dec 3, 2012, 2:20:41 AM12/3/12
to
with an additional filter before public judgement. JR, Jr. had to
show someone else he could draw, Lon Chaney, Jr. had to be able to
act. In baseball, it's the difference between Ken Griffey, Jr. and
Hank Steinbrenner. Or Margaret Mitchell's estate deciding who could
write a sequel to _Gone with the Wind_.
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
Dec 3, 2012, 7:15:02 AM12/3/12
to j...@sfbooks.com
On Monday, 3 December 2012 00:57:08 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> But part of my point, obscured in the writing, was the shift from
> inheriting a literary tendency in *general* (for which, as an
> ancient example, I could've given Statius, whose father was a
> local rhetorician and poet, and of course Pliny as already noted),
> to inheriting actual fictional universes. (One could argue that
> the real forerunner to the latter, preceding even Brian Herbert,
> is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this represents family
> inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big modern example,
> much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off of a femtogenre.)
The question of a "fictional universe" - or "Expanded Universe" -
> But part of my point, obscured in the writing, was the shift from
> inheriting a literary tendency in *general* (for which, as an
> ancient example, I could've given Statius, whose father was a
> local rhetorician and poet, and of course Pliny as already noted),
> to inheriting actual fictional universes. (One could argue that
> the real forerunner to the latter, preceding even Brian Herbert,
> is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this represents family
> inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big modern example,
> much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off of a femtogenre.)
as a property, well, I don't know if such a thing existed before...
let's say Sherlock Holmes. Well... someone mentioned the name
Dumas; there were all those Musketeers.
But there's also been a bunch of third-party sequels to popular works
without particularly asking permission - back when permission wasn't
particularly needed, or at least considered to be needed.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 3, 2012, 12:26:10 PM12/3/12
to
grandson winds up continuing a comic strip, and they tend to lean
toward murky family drama. This one looks rather different…!
David DeLaney
Dec 3, 2012, 1:23:14 PM12/3/12
to
that series would take up...
Dave, it's never Lupus
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
Dec 3, 2012, 1:24:10 PM12/3/12
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>The question of a "fictional universe" - or "Expanded Universe" -
>as a property, well, I don't know if such a thing existed before...
>let's say Sherlock Holmes. Well... someone mentioned the name
>Dumas; there were all those Musketeers.
The Bible counts.
>The question of a "fictional universe" - or "Expanded Universe" -
>as a property, well, I don't know if such a thing existed before...
>let's say Sherlock Holmes. Well... someone mentioned the name
>Dumas; there were all those Musketeers.
>But there's also been a bunch of third-party sequels to popular works
>without particularly asking permission - back when permission wasn't
>particularly needed, or at least considered to be needed.
Dave
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 3, 2012, 12:51:16 PM12/3/12
to
On 2012-12-03 13:23:14 -0500, David DeLaney said:
> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 7:57 PM:
>>> (One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
>>> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
>>> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
>>> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
>>> of a femtogenre.)
>>
>> "There's always the example of Victor Appleton III, who followed in his
>> dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
>
> Heh. I don't know how much space a family tree for the numerous writers in
> that series would take up...
Wouldn't be so much a tree as a pile of kindling.
> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 7:57 PM:
>>> (One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
>>> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
>>> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
>>> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
>>> of a femtogenre.)
>>
>> "There's always the example of Victor Appleton III, who followed in his
>> dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
>
> Heh. I don't know how much space a family tree for the numerous writers in
> that series would take up...
Kip Williams
Dec 3, 2012, 1:41:12 PM12/3/12
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote, On 12/3/12 12:51 PM:
Swift and Fire," "Ugg Swift and Continued Stories," etc.
Kip W
rasfw
> On 2012-12-03 13:23:14 -0500, David DeLaney said:
>
>> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 7:57 PM:
>>>> (One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
>>>> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
>>>> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
>>>> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
>>>> of a femtogenre.)
>>>
>>> "There's always the example of Victor Appleton III, who followed in his
>>> dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
>>
>> Heh. I don't know how much space a family tree for the numerous
>> writers in
>> that series would take up...
>
> Wouldn't be so much a tree as a pile of kindling.
I still liked the original series best. "Ugg Swift and Wheel," "Ugg
>
>> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Joe Bernstein wrote, On 12/2/12 7:57 PM:
>>>> (One could argue that the real forerunner to the latter, preceding
>>>> even Brian Herbert, is the afterlife of V. C. Andrews. Not that this
>>>> represents family inheriting a single universe, but it is a nice big
>>>> modern example, much more recent than Oz, of successful handing-off
>>>> of a femtogenre.)
>>>
>>> "There's always the example of Victor Appleton III, who followed in his
>>> dad's footsteps with the Tom Swift, Jr. series," said Kip, cynically.
>>
>> Heh. I don't know how much space a family tree for the numerous
>> writers in
>> that series would take up...
>
> Wouldn't be so much a tree as a pile of kindling.
Swift and Fire," "Ugg Swift and Continued Stories," etc.
Kip W
rasfw
Joe Bernstein
Dec 3, 2012, 7:13:42 PM12/3/12
to j...@sfbooks.com
name story strips, represent pretty much the shortest paid-for form of
storytelling in American culture, and for all I know in Western culture
generally. So essentially every other form of storytelling, including
every other comics form of storytelling, is longer-form.
Or maybe the problem's my use of "comics". I meant "graphic
storytelling", as maybe the example you snipped (makers of feature-
length animated films) suggested. Hmmm. OK, no, I didn't mean that;
<Chinatown>, for example, doesn't strike me as a "comic". Hmmm. Well,
I've never claimed meaningful expertise in comics, so I'm not all that
upset with myself that I have problems defining what I mean by it.
It wasn't, after all, my idea for this thread to focus on comic strips.
I wonder, though, what it tells us that it has. Is rasfw in fact
collectively unable to offer Ms. Pratchett an encouraging example
closer to novel-length prose? No, actually. We've seen Michel Verne
and Alexandre Dumas fils from the 19th century, and Felix Francis more
recently; meanwhile Oz, historically, and more recently V. C. Andrews
TM and the Victor Appleton "dynasty" have been cited as examples of
non-relatives doing hand-offs.
But of all these, I can only interpret the Oz and Appleton examples
as featuring actual *fictional universes*, and those don't involve
relatives. Nor has there been much praise for the quality of the
handed-off works, except the younger Francis's.
I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
But actually, I've read little more of the later books most Discworld
fans rave about than of the later books many Dune fans try to forget,
so I'm ill equipped to make that argument.
Kurt Busiek
Dec 3, 2012, 7:44:45 PM12/3/12
to
On 2012-12-04 00:13:42 +0000, Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> said:
> It wasn't, after all, my idea for this thread to focus on comic strips.
I didn't focus on comics. I mentioned some comics, and at least one
> It wasn't, after all, my idea for this thread to focus on comic strips.
novel series.
> But of all these, I can only interpret the Oz and Appleton examples
> as featuring actual *fictional universes*, and those don't involve
> relatives.
certainly, but there've been sequels and connections here and there,
and they add up to a consistent setting of sorts, even if they don't
have the same leads regularly.
> I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
> or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
Brian M. Scott
Dec 3, 2012, 8:49:51 PM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 16:13:42 -0800 (PST), Joe Bernstein
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote in
<news:3be23d46-c0b1-49f5...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Is rasfw in fact collectively unable to offer Ms.
> Pratchett an encouraging example closer to novel-length
> prose? No, actually. We've seen Michel Verne and
> Alexandre Dumas fils from the 19th century, and Felix
> Francis more recently; meanwhile Oz, historically, and
> more recently V. C. Andrews TM and the Victor Appleton
> "dynasty" have been cited as examples of non-relatives
> doing hand-offs.
> But of all these, I can only interpret the Oz and Appleton
> examples as featuring actual *fictional universes*, and
> those don't involve relatives. Nor has there been much
> praise for the quality of the handed-off works, except
> the younger Francis's.
Ruth Plumly Thompson wrote some pretty good Oz books. I
tend to prefer Baum's, but that's in large part because I
prefer female protagonists.
Brian
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote in
<news:3be23d46-c0b1-49f5...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Is rasfw in fact collectively unable to offer Ms.
> Pratchett an encouraging example closer to novel-length
> prose? No, actually. We've seen Michel Verne and
> Alexandre Dumas fils from the 19th century, and Felix
> Francis more recently; meanwhile Oz, historically, and
> more recently V. C. Andrews TM and the Victor Appleton
> "dynasty" have been cited as examples of non-relatives
> doing hand-offs.
> But of all these, I can only interpret the Oz and Appleton
> examples as featuring actual *fictional universes*, and
> those don't involve relatives. Nor has there been much
> praise for the quality of the handed-off works, except
> the younger Francis's.
tend to prefer Baum's, but that's in large part because I
prefer female protagonists.
Brian
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Dec 3, 2012, 10:17:09 PM12/3/12
to
when he was hitting areas that have heavy knee-jerk reactions for
someone living in this era, and even though she was working from some of
Baum's notes, Royal Book of Oz just didn't seem to have that touch, for
instance. It was... too much. Like someone trying very hard to do Baum's
creepy whimsy, and failing in the same way that someone trying very hard
to be funny usually isn't.
I haven't read ALL the non-Baum "Famous Forty" -- for a long time I
didn't even see them available -- but of the others, the only one I read
which really felt ... Ozzy to me was the last, Merry-Go-Round in Oz.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Robert Bannister
Dec 3, 2012, 10:39:51 PM12/3/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Dec 3, 2012, 10:42:51 PM12/3/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Brian M. Scott
Dec 4, 2012, 2:05:20 AM12/4/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 22:17:09 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:k9jpvm$o78$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
Oh, her style is definitely different. I didn't mean to
suggest that they were good imitations; I just think that
some of them are reasonably good stories that generally
respect the Baum-canonical setting. (Generally: I would not
have changed Nome King to Gnome King.) But I grew up with
the Yellow Knight and the Giant Horse. I *really* disliked
Jack Snow's Magical Mimics, however.
Brian
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
<news:k9jpvm$o78$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
suggest that they were good imitations; I just think that
some of them are reasonably good stories that generally
respect the Baum-canonical setting. (Generally: I would not
have changed Nome King to Gnome King.) But I grew up with
the Yellow Knight and the Giant Horse. I *really* disliked
Jack Snow's Magical Mimics, however.
Brian
Robert Carnegie
Dec 4, 2012, 6:59:21 AM12/4/12
to
were heaps of "Robinson" knock-offs - although "The word 'robinsonade'
was coined by the German writer Johann Gottfried Schnabel in the Preface
of his 1731 work Die Insel Felsenburg (The Island Stronghold)" but none
of the other works named arise between that and the earlier publication
of _Robinson Crusoe_.
But, various games could be played based on the inclusion in the
list of several sci-fi titles - spotting them; predicting them;
obviously, arguing about them!
Richard R. Hershberger
Dec 4, 2012, 10:06:23 AM12/4/12
to
On Dec 2, 9:36 am, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kurt Busiek wrote, On 12/2/12 1:06 AM:
>
> > On 2012-12-02 04:37:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
> >> Isnt the BC comic strip a consortium of the kids?
>
> > Maybe. I haven't seen it for years.
>
> BC was continued by a daughter and son-in-law of Johnny Hart. The byline
> now is "Mason." They originally had a plan of recycling art elements,
> but I'm pretty sure that went by the wayside early on. The quality of
> the strip jumped from the sadly wretched state it had fallen to —
> particularly sad considering that the earliest years of the strip are
> among the freshest and funniest newspaper comics ever. In its later
> days, it was mostly grim and contrived anachronism gags. Fonzie!
> Microwaves! Oh, and religion. Two or three times a year, Hart would hit
> one out of the park just to show that this was all coming from the same
> hands that beheld the invention of the wheel and the discovery of water.
>
> The Mason outfit has settled into a newer rut, still leaning heavily on
> the high-larity of cavemen with credit cards (every so often, somebody
> stumbles anew on the theory that the strip takes place after WW3), and
> the characters have started to morph a little to suit someone's
> astigmatism. It's nowhere near the genius level it started out at, but
> it's still funnier than where it had sunk. A dog was introduced, with
> generally good results.
>
> I tend to think of it as a new strip with old characters. To distinguish
> it from Hart's work, I call it "AD" for "After Death."
I liked BC as a kid, then went away from it for many years. I came
back to it (or, more accurately, I subscribed to a newspaper carrying
it) the last few years of Hart's life, and found it utterly dreadful.
The religious strips were the worst, as they inevitably were of the
Christianity-as-excuse-to-be-hateful variety. The anachronism is the
least problematic aspect of this. Even when religion wasn't being
used as an excuse, it seemed to largely consist of remarkably
unlikable characters being hateful towards one another. Nowadays it
seems to have moved away from the worst of this, and has risen to
mediocrity. I usually read the entire comics page, but this is the
one I skim.
I am mildly curious if the early BC strips hold up. Early Peanuts do,
remarkably well. But I suspect that this is the exception rather than
the rule.
Richard R. Hershberger
> Kurt Busiek wrote, On 12/2/12 1:06 AM:
>
> > On 2012-12-02 04:37:29 +0000, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
> >> Isnt the BC comic strip a consortium of the kids?
>
> > Maybe. I haven't seen it for years.
>
> BC was continued by a daughter and son-in-law of Johnny Hart. The byline
> now is "Mason." They originally had a plan of recycling art elements,
> but I'm pretty sure that went by the wayside early on. The quality of
> the strip jumped from the sadly wretched state it had fallen to —
> particularly sad considering that the earliest years of the strip are
> among the freshest and funniest newspaper comics ever. In its later
> days, it was mostly grim and contrived anachronism gags. Fonzie!
> Microwaves! Oh, and religion. Two or three times a year, Hart would hit
> one out of the park just to show that this was all coming from the same
> hands that beheld the invention of the wheel and the discovery of water.
>
> The Mason outfit has settled into a newer rut, still leaning heavily on
> the high-larity of cavemen with credit cards (every so often, somebody
> stumbles anew on the theory that the strip takes place after WW3), and
> the characters have started to morph a little to suit someone's
> astigmatism. It's nowhere near the genius level it started out at, but
> it's still funnier than where it had sunk. A dog was introduced, with
> generally good results.
>
> I tend to think of it as a new strip with old characters. To distinguish
> it from Hart's work, I call it "AD" for "After Death."
I liked BC as a kid, then went away from it for many years. I came
back to it (or, more accurately, I subscribed to a newspaper carrying
it) the last few years of Hart's life, and found it utterly dreadful.
The religious strips were the worst, as they inevitably were of the
Christianity-as-excuse-to-be-hateful variety. The anachronism is the
least problematic aspect of this. Even when religion wasn't being
used as an excuse, it seemed to largely consist of remarkably
unlikable characters being hateful towards one another. Nowadays it
seems to have moved away from the worst of this, and has risen to
mediocrity. I usually read the entire comics page, but this is the
one I skim.
I am mildly curious if the early BC strips hold up. Early Peanuts do,
remarkably well. But I suspect that this is the exception rather than
the rule.
Richard R. Hershberger
Kip Williams
Dec 4, 2012, 11:01:31 AM12/4/12
to
Richard R. Hershberger wrote, On 12/4/12 10:06 AM:
was wildly inventive, and inventively wild. ("Behold the discovery of
water! Witness the discovery of air!") ("I've invented the piano!"
"Fantastic! How does it work?" "You blow through this little hole in the
back, here.")
Kip W
rasfw
> I am mildly curious if the early BC strips hold up. Early Peanuts do,
> remarkably well. But I suspect that this is the exception rather than
> the rule.
I have the first few books readily available. They do hold up. The strip
> remarkably well. But I suspect that this is the exception rather than
> the rule.
was wildly inventive, and inventively wild. ("Behold the discovery of
water! Witness the discovery of air!") ("I've invented the piano!"
"Fantastic! How does it work?" "You blow through this little hole in the
back, here.")
Kip W
rasfw
Michael Stemper
Dec 4, 2012, 12:45:11 PM12/4/12
to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinsonade#Apocalyptic_fantasy_robinsonade>,
_Starship Troopers_. "Apocalyptic Fantasy"? Really? Somehow, I have trouble
accepting this as "apocalyptic" (in the sense of "post-apocalyptic"), to
say nothing of the "fantasy" label. Actually, the "apocalyptic" label
bugs me more.
The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
All of that is long in the past.
If _Starship Troopers_ is apocalyptic because of a disaster five hundred
or more years back, than any novel set in current Europe or NorAm would
be as well, because of the disastrous background of the Black Death.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.
Greg Goss
Dec 4, 2012, 5:00:24 PM12/4/12
to
Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't read it, so
>I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty books.
--
I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
wouldn't have rusted like this.
Greg Goss
Dec 4, 2012, 5:05:52 PM12/4/12
to
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>All of that is long in the past.
Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>All of that is long in the past.
through.
Brian M. Scott
Dec 5, 2012, 12:38:55 AM12/5/12
to
On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:00:24 -0700, Greg Goss
<go...@gossg.org> wrote in
<news:ai7a3k...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>> I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job
>> than Pern or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms.
>> Pratchett's task even harder.
> Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't
> read it, so can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty
> books.
My recollection is that it got some reasonably favorable
comments when it was mentioned here a while back.
Brian
<go...@gossg.org> wrote in
<news:ai7a3k...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>> I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job
>> than Pern or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms.
>> Pratchett's task even harder.
> Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't
> read it, so can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty
> books.
comments when it was mentioned here a while back.
Brian
Robert Carnegie
Dec 5, 2012, 6:26:28 AM12/5/12
to
On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
and/or (B) some other writer?
Of all the science fiction writers I admire - actually I don't think
I've read /anything/ by Terry Pratchett's daughter - as far as we knew.
Well, I think I may have seen some adequate video games journalism
by her. That's different.
Or, perhaps we're looking at an editorial, custodianship role.
I think the copyright notices are usually "Terry and Lynn Pratchett",
i.e. his wife, but I assumed that that was less about creative
contribution and more about income tax or something. Probably someone
has asked at one point. Actually there's at least one bit in
_The Unadulterated Cat_ that appears to be, but may not be, a
translation of an discussion between Mr. Pratchett and Mrs. Pratchett
about the loveableness of dogs.
I'm not sure if death tax comes into a decision to assign rights to
a child instead of a spouse; I think in some cases the spouse
inherits tax-free.
Rhianna probably knows the Secrets, and how to make use of the unlucky
rabbit's foot (from the point of view of the rabbit), and, of course,
the extremely successful pop music career.
> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
and/or (B) some other writer?
Of all the science fiction writers I admire - actually I don't think
I've read /anything/ by Terry Pratchett's daughter - as far as we knew.
Well, I think I may have seen some adequate video games journalism
by her. That's different.
Or, perhaps we're looking at an editorial, custodianship role.
I think the copyright notices are usually "Terry and Lynn Pratchett",
i.e. his wife, but I assumed that that was less about creative
contribution and more about income tax or something. Probably someone
has asked at one point. Actually there's at least one bit in
_The Unadulterated Cat_ that appears to be, but may not be, a
translation of an discussion between Mr. Pratchett and Mrs. Pratchett
about the loveableness of dogs.
I'm not sure if death tax comes into a decision to assign rights to
a child instead of a spouse; I think in some cases the spouse
inherits tax-free.
Rhianna probably knows the Secrets, and how to make use of the unlucky
rabbit's foot (from the point of view of the rabbit), and, of course,
the extremely successful pop music career.
Anthony Nance
Dec 5, 2012, 11:11:28 AM12/5/12
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
> and/or (B) some other writer?
I assume they'd want whatever person/people it takes to most
> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
> and/or (B) some other writer?
faithfully continue the series.
And yeah, "faithfully" is especially subjective and squishy, but
I think readers want "just like Terry's", however it gets done.
Tony
James Silverton
Dec 5, 2012, 11:38:48 AM12/5/12
to
has copyright of a character?
Can a character or setting be passed on to legatees like a family
business or franchise? For example, could someone else than Todd
Macafferty write Pern novels or someone other than Brian Herbert write
Dune novels without permission?
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
James Nicoll
Dec 5, 2012, 11:44:10 AM12/5/12
to
In article <ai7a3k...@mid.individual.net>,
makes me hope she stays with SF a long time.
It also made the Tiptree Long List last year. I expect if she keeps
writing F&SF novels for Pournelle to one day win a Tiptree and there's
a sentence I would not have envisioned writing.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>>or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
>
>Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't read it, so
>can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty books.
It's good. Could have used polishing from an editor but what's there
>Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>>or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
>
>Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't read it, so
>can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty books.
makes me hope she stays with SF a long time.
It also made the Tiptree Long List last year. I expect if she keeps
writing F&SF novels for Pournelle to one day win a Tiptree and there's
a sentence I would not have envisioned writing.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Dec 5, 2012, 12:12:07 PM12/5/12
to
On 12/5/12 11:44 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ai7a3k...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>>> or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
>>
>> Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't read it, so
>> can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty books.
>
> It's good. Could have used polishing from an editor but what's there
> makes me hope she stays with SF a long time.
>
> It also made the Tiptree Long List last year. I expect if she keeps
> writing F&SF novels for Pournelle to one day win a Tiptree and there's
> a sentence I would not have envisioned writing.
>
Well, if she's working with her father it's a collaboration, and I
> In article <ai7a3k...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> Joe Bernstein <j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm tempted to argue that Discworld is also a tougher job than Pern
>>> or Dune, if not than Oz, making Ms. Pratchett's task even harder.
>>
>> Pournelle's daughter wrote a Motie book, but I haven't read it, so
>> can't say it's as dreadful as other dynasty books.
>
> It's good. Could have used polishing from an editor but what's there
> makes me hope she stays with SF a long time.
>
> It also made the Tiptree Long List last year. I expect if she keeps
> writing F&SF novels for Pournelle to one day win a Tiptree and there's
> a sentence I would not have envisioned writing.
>
always felt Pournelle and Niven as a collaboration were on average
significantly better than either Pournelle or Niven taken separately, so
it may not be surprising.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 5, 2012, 12:49:13 PM12/5/12
to
On 2012-12-05 11:38:48 -0500, James Silverton said:
> On 12/5/2012 11:11 AM, Anthony Nance wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>>>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>>>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>>>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>>> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
>>> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
>>> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
>>> and/or (B) some other writer?
>>
>> I assume they'd want whatever person/people it takes to most
>> faithfully continue the series.
>>
>> And yeah, "faithfully" is especially subjective and squishy, but
>> I think readers want "just like Terry's", however it gets done.
>>
> On 12/5/2012 11:11 AM, Anthony Nance wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>>>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>>>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>>>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>>> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
>>> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
>>> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
>>> and/or (B) some other writer?
>>
>> I assume they'd want whatever person/people it takes to most
>> faithfully continue the series.
>>
>> And yeah, "faithfully" is especially subjective and squishy, but
>> I think readers want "just like Terry's", however it gets done.
>>
> As a reader rather than a writer, can anyone tell me whether an author
> has copyright of a character?
> Can a character or setting be passed on to legatees like a family
> business or franchise? For example, could someone else than Todd
> Macafferty write Pern novels or someone other than Brian Herbert write
> Dune novels without permission?
Copyright includes "derivative works," so yes, characters are copyright
> has copyright of a character?
> Can a character or setting be passed on to legatees like a family
> business or franchise? For example, could someone else than Todd
> Macafferty write Pern novels or someone other than Brian Herbert write
> Dune novels without permission?
and you need permission for anything still under copyright.
In the U.S., anything published prior to 1923 (and some later stuff,
not gonna get into that) is in the public domain, so you don't need
permission to write stories about Sherlock Holmes or D'Artagnan -- but
the name "Tarzan" is trademarked, so even though you can write Tarzan
stories or print copies of _Tarzan of the Apes_, you can't advertise
them as being about Tarzan.
It gets complicated.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 5, 2012, 12:51:09 PM12/5/12
to
On 2012-12-05 06:26:28 -0500, Robert Carnegie said:
> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
> and/or (B) some other writer?
Depends who can do it better. Robert Jordan chose Brandon Sanderson to
> On Sunday, 2 December 2012 01:37:49 UTC, Joe Bernstein wrote:
>> Terry Pratchett's decision to hand Discworld on to his daughter
>> is in keeping with a recent pattern: Todd McCaffrey, Brian Herbert,
>> and I forget who-all else have also recently inherited worlds.
>
> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
> and/or (B) some other writer?
continue his work, rather than a relative, because he thought Sanderson
would do a better job.
> Of all the science fiction writers I admire - actually I don't think
> I've read /anything/ by Terry Pratchett's daughter - as far as we knew.
> Well, I think I may have seen some adequate video games journalism
> by her. That's different.
>
> Or, perhaps we're looking at an editorial, custodianship role.
>
> I think the copyright notices are usually "Terry and Lynn Pratchett",
> i.e. his wife, but I assumed that that was less about creative
> contribution and more about income tax or something. Probably someone
> has asked at one point. Actually there's at least one bit in
> _The Unadulterated Cat_ that appears to be, but may not be, a
> translation of an discussion between Mr. Pratchett and Mrs. Pratchett
> about the loveableness of dogs.
>
> I'm not sure if death tax comes into a decision to assign rights to
> a child instead of a spouse; I think in some cases the spouse
> inherits tax-free.
she'll be around longer to keep the series going.
> Rhianna probably knows the Secrets, and how to make use of the unlucky
> rabbit's foot (from the point of view of the rabbit), and, of course,
> the extremely successful pop music career.
James Nicoll
Dec 5, 2012, 12:56:01 PM12/5/12
to
In article <k9nv97$ihb$3...@dont-email.me>,
Actually, it's pretty trivial to look the book up to see if there are
co-writers listed or not.
http://www.amazon.com/Outies-The-Mote-Series-ebook/dp/B004FGMURG
Her father's contribution was the setting and I think he may own the company
that published it. The writing is hers (and in fact there are details in it
I would have been fairly astounded to see in a work he'd help write; as I
recall gl*b*l cl*m*t* ch*ng* is mentioned and not as a conspiracy of tree-
hugging bra-burning Marxists).
co-writers listed or not.
http://www.amazon.com/Outies-The-Mote-Series-ebook/dp/B004FGMURG
Her father's contribution was the setting and I think he may own the company
that published it. The writing is hers (and in fact there are details in it
I would have been fairly astounded to see in a work he'd help write; as I
recall gl*b*l cl*m*t* ch*ng* is mentioned and not as a conspiracy of tree-
hugging bra-burning Marxists).
Michael Stemper
Dec 5, 2012, 1:39:49 PM12/5/12
to
In article <ai7adt...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>All of that is long in the past.
>
>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>through.
By that standard (one city wiped out on a planet), anything set on Earth
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>All of that is long in the past.
>
>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>through.
in the mid- to late-1940s would be post-apocalyptic, what with Tokyo, Dresden,
Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Greg Goss
Dec 5, 2012, 5:26:43 PM12/5/12
to
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>Her father's contribution was the setting and I think he may own the company
>that published it. The writing is hers (and in fact there are details in it
>I would have been fairly astounded to see in a work he'd help write; as I
>recall gl*b*l cl*m*t* ch*ng* is mentioned and not as a conspiracy of tree-
>hugging bra-burning Marxists).
Well, Dad claims to have been fairly significant in the early days of
>Her father's contribution was the setting and I think he may own the company
>that published it. The writing is hers (and in fact there are details in it
>I would have been fairly astounded to see in a work he'd help write; as I
>recall gl*b*l cl*m*t* ch*ng* is mentioned and not as a conspiracy of tree-
>hugging bra-burning Marxists).
the Sierra Club, and managed to get himself kicked out of the
Republican establishment in the mid-twokays, so he might not be as
raving loony right as his military fiction makes him seem.
He got himself more-or-less expelled for saying that the Afghanistan
strategy was a poor idea and that Iraq was a loony idea.
Greg Goss
Dec 5, 2012, 5:28:00 PM12/5/12
to
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <ai7adt...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>>All of that is long in the past.
>>
>>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>>through.
>
>By that standard (one city wiped out on a planet), anything set on Earth
>in the mid- to late-1940s would be post-apocalyptic, what with Tokyo, Dresden,
>Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
That's a correct interpretation of my point. The "well" was
>In article <ai7adt...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>>All of that is long in the past.
>>
>>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>>through.
>
>By that standard (one city wiped out on a planet), anything set on Earth
>in the mid- to late-1940s would be post-apocalyptic, what with Tokyo, Dresden,
>Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
indicating that some people but not necessarily me, could say that.
Greg Goss
Dec 5, 2012, 5:31:28 PM12/5/12
to
INCLUDING an internal production of A Christmas Carol without ever
saying "A Christmas Carol". They sort of talked around the title a
few times in an awkward manner. I was wondering if they were avoiding
licensing a trademark on a work that was long out of copyright.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Dec 6, 2012, 12:00:09 AM12/6/12
to
On 2012-12-05 17:31:28 -0500, Greg Goss said:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-12-05 11:38:48 -0500, James Silverton said:
>
>> In the U.S., anything published prior to 1923 (and some later stuff,
>> not gonna get into that) is in the public domain, so you don't need
>> permission to write stories about Sherlock Holmes or D'Artagnan -- but
>> the name "Tarzan" is trademarked, so even though you can write Tarzan
>> stories or print copies of _Tarzan of the Apes_, you can't advertise
>> them as being about Tarzan.
>>
>> It gets complicated.
>
> The movie "Scrooged" managed to do an "A Christmas Carol" story line
> INCLUDING an internal production of A Christmas Carol without ever
> saying "A Christmas Carol". They sort of talked around the title a
> few times in an awkward manner. I was wondering if they were avoiding
> licensing a trademark on a work that was long out of copyright.
Naaah. I think they were just being cute. Believe me, nobody has any
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-12-05 11:38:48 -0500, James Silverton said:
>
>> In the U.S., anything published prior to 1923 (and some later stuff,
>> not gonna get into that) is in the public domain, so you don't need
>> permission to write stories about Sherlock Holmes or D'Artagnan -- but
>> the name "Tarzan" is trademarked, so even though you can write Tarzan
>> stories or print copies of _Tarzan of the Apes_, you can't advertise
>> them as being about Tarzan.
>>
>> It gets complicated.
>
> The movie "Scrooged" managed to do an "A Christmas Carol" story line
> INCLUDING an internal production of A Christmas Carol without ever
> saying "A Christmas Carol". They sort of talked around the title a
> few times in an awkward manner. I was wondering if they were avoiding
> licensing a trademark on a work that was long out of copyright.
claim at all on "A Christmas Carol."
David DeLaney
Dec 6, 2012, 2:42:31 AM12/6/12
to
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:51:09 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On 2012-12-05 06:26:28 -0500, Robert Carnegie said:
>> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
>> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
>> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
>> and/or (B) some other writer?
>
>Depends who can do it better. Robert Jordan chose Brandon Sanderson to
>continue his work, rather than a relative, because he thought Sanderson
>would do a better job.
And so far this seems to have borne fruit, despite initial issues with
>On 2012-12-05 06:26:28 -0500, Robert Carnegie said:
>> I suppose the question may be put thus, which I don't recall us doing
>> yet: if Terry Pratchett isn't around to write more Discworld books,
>> do readers want it to be done by (A) Terry Pratchett's daughter
>> and/or (B) some other writer?
>
>Depends who can do it better. Robert Jordan chose Brandon Sanderson to
>continue his work, rather than a relative, because he thought Sanderson
>would do a better job.
Mat's persona.
Dave, waiting for January
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Michael Stemper
Dec 6, 2012, 8:13:18 AM12/6/12
to
In article <aia03c...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>In article <ai7adt...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>>>All of that is long in the past.
>>>
>>>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>>>through.
>>
>>By that standard (one city wiped out on a planet), anything set on Earth
>>in the mid- to late-1940s would be post-apocalyptic, what with Tokyo, Dresden,
>>Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
>
>That's a correct interpretation of my point. The "well" was
>indicating that some people but not necessarily me, could say that.
Ah. Got it.
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>In article <ai7adt...@mid.individual.net>, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>The fact that there was a major war five hundred or a thousand years
>>>>prior to the story seems pretty irrelevant. _Starship Troopers_ is not
>>>>a story about people struggling to survive after an apocalypse, and it's
>>>>not a story about people nobly striving to rebuild a viable civilization.
>>>>All of that is long in the past.
>>>
>>>Well, they do have the off-screen nuking of Buenos Aires partway
>>>through.
>>
>>By that standard (one city wiped out on a planet), anything set on Earth
>>in the mid- to late-1940s would be post-apocalyptic, what with Tokyo, Dresden,
>>Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.
>
>That's a correct interpretation of my point. The "well" was
>indicating that some people but not necessarily me, could say that.
Never mind, then.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
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