Why Does This List Hate Piers Anthony?
Peter Venetoklis
any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
What gives? (I've heard there is an alt.* group for him, but I can't
access it, so please don't direct me there. I'm not a rabid Anthony
fan, just a perplexed reader).
--
____________________________________________________________________
Peter Venetoklis pe...@gdstech.grumman.com
Senior Engineer - Mission Analysis Northrop Grumman Corporation
Opinions are mine, not Grumman's, not Northrop's, not anyone else's.
Henry Churchyard
Peter Venetoklis <pe...@gdstech.grumman.com> wrote:
>I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
>I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
>whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
Becuse he's a fairly good _writer_ as writer, but he's given to
horrible immature lapses in character motivation and emotions,
plotting etc. Look at the end of _Thousandstar_ (I think -- I mean
the Cluster book with the race in it). I rest my case...
-- ____ ___ _ / _ _ ___ _ / _ _ _ ___ _ ____ Henry
.| | | \| | .| \| | | | | Churchyard--
| | __\ | | __\ | __| | | churchyh@
. . __ . . . . . . ccwf.cc.
. . . . . . utexas.edu
Greg Slade
HC>PV> I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
HC>PV> whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
HC>
HC> Becuse he's a fairly good _writer_ as writer, but he's given to
HC> horrible immature lapses in character motivation and emotions,
HC> plotting etc. Look at the end of _Thousandstar_ (I think -- I mean
HC> the Cluster book with the race in it). I rest my case...
Whoa! *Profound* insight here! My first reaction, upon seeing the
subject line, was to reply before even reading the question, and say,
"because he writes *Drivel!* But I have developed an abiding hatred
for Anthony, which I don't have against, for example, those responsible
for perpetrating the movie *Star Crash*, which has to be in the running
for the stupidest SF movie in history. But this helps explain why
I bought *three* books in the "Bio of a Space Tyrant" series before
I admitted that it was drivel. It must be, as you say, that Anthony
does have talent, and I kept on saying to myself, "It *must* get better
than this!" After all, with other moronic SF, I don't bother even
trying a second book after I get burned once.
John Novak
>I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed that
>any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
>the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
>I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
>I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
>whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
Probably because his writing _style_ tends to indicate that he
has some skill. Perhaps even a great deal of skill, as a writer.
But in the last 10+ years, he hasn't improved his writing. Not a
whit, not even a tiny bit.
He keeps writing the same, hackneyed stories with mediocre
characterization, familiar (read as, "incredibly overused")
backgrounds, the requisite three dollops of adolescent
wet-dream material, and reused plots.
Presumeably its because he's found his niche in writing, the
point where he achieves the maximum amount of money for the
minimum amount of effort.
Its the same frustration as finding an undergrad whom you _know_
has the potential to do some damn fine work, but spends his days
partying, and scribbling down the bare minimum homework necessary
to pass.
IMO, of course.
--
John S. Novak, III
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
j...@camelot.bradley.edu
John Stoffel
In article <2svpof$e...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu> chur...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (Henry Churchyard) writes:
Henry> In article <1994Jun6.1...@gdstech.grumman.com>,
Henry> Peter Venetoklis <pe...@gdstech.grumman.com> wrote:
>> I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
>> I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
>> whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
Henry> Becuse he's a fairly good _writer_ as writer, but he's given to
Henry> horrible immature lapses in character motivation and emotions,
Henry> plotting etc. Look at the end of _Thousandstar_ (I think -- I
Henry> mean the Cluster book with the race in it). I rest my case...
And anyone who takes money to write the novelization of the movie "The
Running Man" can't be worth much. And this is from someone who loved
"On a Pale Horse". Philip K. Dick must be spinning in his grave over
this one....
John
Matthew P Wiener
>Presumeably its because he's found his niche in writing, the point
>where he achieves the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount
>of effort.
A fate that Robert Silverberg worked hard to avoid.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Russell Wallace
>I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed that
>any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
>the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
>I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
>I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
>whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
>What gives? (I've heard there is an alt.* group for him, but I can't
>access it, so please don't direct me there. I'm not a rabid Anthony
>fan, just a perplexed reader).
A valid point. I think everything he's written in the last few years is
unbelievable drivel that I am utterly astonished any editor would accept
(except that they seem to sell, so the editors presumably know their job
better than I do :)) Some of his earlier stuff wasn't bad though.
--
"To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem"
Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin
rwal...@cs.tcd.ie
Jim Lahue
in the Incarnations of Immortality series or his Cluster books), he
seems to come out with tripe (such as most of his Xanth books). If an
author is wildly inconsistent, then it is tough trying to decide if you
want to spend your money on his product (especially since paperback
prices are starting to become too expensive for mass purchases).
=========================================================================
Jim Lahue | Disclaimer: All expressed
jla...@vnet.ibm.com | views are mine alone and not
Power Personal Systems, IBM | necessarily shared by IBM
Arun Sannuti
Because Piers Anthony CAN write better stories (and has; I disagree
with somebody who has said recently that they thought _Macroscope_ was
trash.), but chooses to put out mindless drek. He has a much higher
potential, but chooses to make money by writing prepubescent fantasies.
arun
san...@stein.u.washington.edu
Technoknight
In article <2svpof$e...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu>, chur...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (Henry Churchyard) writes:
|>In article <1994Jun6.1...@gdstech.grumman.com>,
|>Peter Venetoklis <pe...@gdstech.grumman.com> wrote:
|>>I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
|>>I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
|>>whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
|>
|>Becuse he's a fairly good _writer_ as writer, but he's given to
|>horrible immature lapses in character motivation and emotions,
|>plotting etc. Look at the end of _Thousandstar_ (I think -- I mean
|>the Cluster book with the race in it). I rest my case...
Hear, hear. I always thought the first book of CLUSTER was reaaally stupid,
the way the hero and the enemy fall in love and decide to die in alien bodies,
and leave a spider daughter. Yech -puti!-.
And even his Xanth books are getting hard to read, there are so many puns.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generic disclaimer: These thoughts and writings are my own unless otherwise
noted - although Jerrold my twin may think them too.
Jeremy H. Pace | The Vindicator Eph. 6:12
jhp...@eos.ncsu.edu | Technoknight MS V in Wolfpack ROTC
NC State, Raleigh | Computer Engineering GruB Gott
"Peace, through superior firepower." - Minos V motto, ST:TNG "The Arsenal
of Freedom"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Pearce
I don't 'hate' Piers Anthony, I just hate what he has become... He's the
Dean R. Koontz of fantasy. The Stephen King of popular fiction.
(Believe me, PA's stuff from the last several years frightens me...)
I still think that some of his earlier books have merit:
MACROSCOPE: Read it and put it in context to when it was written, Dweebs!
A SPELL FOR CHAMELEON: I read this when it was first published and still
think it's a great fantasy novel. Even the next couple were fine. It's
just that he has squeezed blood from a stone on this topic. Is he up to
novel 50 in the series or something? Give me a break.
The TAROT books: Though somewhat unusual, they contain quite a bit of
interesting good vs. evil, and religion vs. athiesm discussions.
Probably his most thought-provoking books.
I also like the 'Cluster' books for imaginative SF. And a couple of his
(rare and early) stand-alone novels are good too.
Michael Pearce
Ethan A Merritt
>I still think that some of his earlier books have merit:
>
>interesting good vs. evil, and religion vs. athiesm discussions.
>Probably his most thought-provoking books.
Nah. He's been on the downhill slope for much longer than that. For the most
thought-provoking and arguably the best written (at least the best
constructed, which isn't necessarily the same thing) you have to go back
aJll the way to the series which included _Orn_ and _Pthor_.
The _Battle Circle_ trilogy was already losing ground fast, and by the time
he hit the _Tarot_ books he'd long since been taken over by his evil twin.
I think that _Macroscope_ is perhaps the easiest reading (does that mean
best written?) of his early books, but I think it came out just after
he gave up writing "serious" stuff? I'd have to check publication dates.
Ethan A Merritt
mer...@u.washington.edu
who me? the last P.A. that I read was, hmmm let me see ...
Blue Adept I think (ycch) haven't picked one up since.
Courtenay Footman
_Prostho Plus_ is genuinely funny. Then he wrote "A Spell for
Chameleon". This is actually a pretty good book (albeit sexist).
It was a massive bestseller. He then discovered that if he wrote
books with as many insipid puns and simple puzzles as in SfC,
without bothering about writing quality, they sold just about
as well. So he does write books that way. Actually, he seems
to be interested when he writes the first book of a series;
they are usually decent. Then he switches to automatic pilot,
which makes the subsequent books an even larger disappointment.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman I finally got back on the net.
c...@alchemy.ithaca.ny.us Now I will never get anything done
David A Bergman
(Why doesn't anyone like Piers Anthony)
: --
: ____________________________________________________________________
: Peter Venetoklis pe...@gdstech.grumman.com
: Senior Engineer - Mission Analysis Northrop Grumman Corporation
: Opinions are mine, not Grumman's, not Northrop's, not anyone else's.
Because he writes drivel. With a few exceptions, his characters are
flatter than paper, they make decisions that have no motivation,
and they do not change at all except in superficial and/or unmotivated
ways.
He writes gratuitous adolescent fantasy-type stuff.
He writes of that which he knows nothing (read Fractal Mode).
His plots are old.
He actually has the ability to write decently, ie his style keeps
the reader somewhat interested, but re: the above, it gets painful
at times and he makes no effort to improve.
I can honestly say that I think Fractal Mode was the worst book I have
ever read.
Aaron
(And Eddings is getting annoying, too)
Jim_...@transarc.com
> I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed that
> any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
> the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
>
> I've read some of his work, and while I realize much of it is mind candy,
> I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
> whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
>
There are probably several reasons for this.
First and probably formost is that he produces junk but junk that
sells. I think folks are annoyed at that.
Second is that he is capable of better. Early in his career, Anthony
showed the potential of being a major SF writer, not just a producer
of mildly entertaining schlock. So there's some frustration there
amongst those of us who remember the promise of Cthon, Macroscope, and
Omnivore (or even A Spell for Chameleon; Xanth started out well and
degenerated rapidly).
******************************************************************
Jim Mann jm...@transarc.com
Transarc Corporation
The Gulf Tower, 707 Grant Street, Pittsburgh, PA 15219 (412) 338-4442
Football coaches talk about character, gut checks, intensity and
reckless abandon. Tommy Lasorda said, "Managing is like holding a dove
in your hand. Squeeze too hard and you kill it; not hard enough and it
flies away."
-- Tom Boswell, "99 Reasons Why Baseball Is Better than Football"
Dash Wendrzyk
|> [munch]
|>
|> Its the same frustration as finding an undergrad whom you _know_
|> has the potential to do some damn fine work, but spends his days
|> partying, and scribbling down the bare minimum homework necessary
|> to pass.
|>
Well, shoot, John, when you put it that way, maybe I can respect
this Piers Anthony fellow after all :-)
Seriously, though, when I read the first three Xanth books, I was
an adolescent, and didn't see anything wrong with his stuff. I
even went and found his older stuff and there was some good
stuff there (from what I can remember).
But, man, since then, it's like Xanth - HACK - Xanth - HACK -
Bio of a Space Tyrant - HACK - Blue Adept - HACK -
Xanth - HACK - Incarnations - HACK - Xanth - HACK!
After awhile, not only do you no longer want to buy his books,
you really don't want to see his name mentioned in r.a.sf.w.
dash
Aahz
>any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
>the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
Following is a repost of a review originally written by Dani Zweig:
From: da...@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews,rec.arts.sf.written
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Unnumbered Reviews #8: Piers Anthony
Date: 16 Jan 94 02:12:33 GMT
Lines: 212
Unnumbered Reviews #8: Piers Anthony
This review is intended as first aid for readers who are giving the Piers
Anthony shelf at the bookstore dubious glances and wondering whether and
where to jump in. That comes close to being a frequently asked question.
In some respects, my answers are going to be very similar to those that
are typically given in response.
Piers Anthony is a writer with a gimmick. Many gimmicks, in fact, and
each book or series he writes is structured around a gimmick of some sort,
most often a game. The result is typically excellent mind candy, at least
to start, often mixed in with non-trivial ethical or philosophical issues
which can challenge the young readers who constitute his primary target
audience. Anthony has the bad habit, unfortunately, of taking the contents
of one excellent novel and stretching them over an entire series -- flogging
the gimmick-of-the-day until the last bit of life has gone out of it. This
is why he aggravates people so: He hasn't the grace to be an untalented
hack who can just be ignored *or* to write to his potential.
It's worth thinking of Anthony's career in two parts. Before he hit the
jackpot with his 'Xanth' series, he wrote mostly stand-alone novels. They
ranged from excellent to execrable. (The worst of the latter were
unpublishable at the time, but have since been printed on the basis of
Anthony's name. Those books often have forewords that say things like "I
wrote this in 1960 but couldn't sell it until 1990." Take those warnings
gratefully to heart.) Since he became a reliable best-seller, stand-alone
novels have become the exception, and the series novels have become the
rule. He hasn't stopped writing entertaining young-people's fiction: If
you pick up the first book of almost any of his series, it's likely to be
good. Trouble is, he then puts that book through more sequel-permutations
than the book was made to bear. So -- where to start?
"Macroscope" (***+ on an uncalibrated four-point scale) is probably his
best book. The Macroscope itself is the ultimate 'eye', capable of
picking up high-resolution observations from anywhere in the galaxy. A
number of extraterrestrial civilizations are already under observation --
and those near Earth's level of development show a distressing tendency to
self-destruct. The Macroscope is also picking up a general broadcast, on
the band it uses, which appears to carry technical information -- including
the key to interstellar travel -- but that information is protected by a
'destroyer' sequence which destroys the minds of those with high enough
intelligence to comprehend the technical information. A small group, which
includes the one person capable of making limited use of the broadcast,
embarks on a search for answers: What is the 'destroyer'? Why is it in
place? Can the information it shields save Earth from self-destruction?
The book bubbles with ideas. The *author* bubbles with ideas, and wants
to share them with us, often at great length. Reading "Macroscope" is
like being shown through a child's collection of gems, bottle-tops, and
other shiny objects found on the beach: Word puzzles, ecological collapse,
mathematical games, racism, astrology, the nature of genius, and more --
the elements are interesting and thought-provoking, but it often feels as
if Anthony included anything that happened to interest him that day. The
characters are shallow and obsessive -- a problem Anthony's never licked
-- and play idiotic games for absurdly high stakes. The story keeps
taking time out for little psychodramas, apparently for no better reason
than that the author likes writing them. And yet... and yet, there is
something engaging about this book bubbling over with ideas faster than
the author can put them on paper.
A relatively early work (1969) "Macroscope" hasn't aged as gracefully as
it might have, but Anthony's strengths and weaknesses show clearly. At
the time, the book signalled great potential. An author who could build
on those strengths and overcome those weaknesses could produce wonderful
books. Now, a quarter of a century later, little has changed. Replace
"Macroscope" with another title and change the list of shiny objects, and the
preceding paragraph can be applied to most anything Anthony's written since.
"A Spell for Chameleon" (***) is the first book in the 'Xanth' series,
that made Anthony's fortune. If most of Anthony's books are mind candy,
the 'Xanth' novels are spun sugar -- light, airy, and almost content-free.
Xanth in a magical land. No, not in the sense that there's a lot of
magic, but in the sense that *everything* is magic. It's a land of dragons
and harpies and giants and demons. It's a land where shoes grow on shoe
trees and butter comes from butterflies and everyone is born with a magic
power. Everyone except Bink, that is, who's about to be exiled from Xanth
as a result. Bink's search for magic takes him first to the castle of the
Good Magician -- who is able to verify that he does have a powerful magic,
but one that is hidden -- and then into the path of an invading army led
by a previously exiled Evil Magician.
"A Spell for Chameleon" is cute, light-weight, and fun -- particularly if
you don't mind bad puns and characters who are seldom more than extensions
of their talents. The series has run to many sequels. The first couple,
"The Source of Magic" and "Castle Roogna" are better than the ones that
follow, as each book in the series seems to lean more heavily on bad puns
than the previous one. The most frequently asked question about Anthony's
books is which Xanth novels to read, and the answer that is almost always
given is to read until they stop being fun and then to stop -- because
they're not going to get better. (Anthony's series generally decline, but
the Xanth series has run long enough for the decline to be particularly
visible.) One other word of warning: Piers Anthony's handling of relations
between the sexes generally puts me in mind of a twelve-year-old peeking up
girls' dresses, but nowhere is this more pronounced than in the Xanth novels.
Other Major Series:
"On a Pale Horse" (***) is the first book in the series "Incarnations of
Immortality." It's placed in an Earth much like our own, except that
magic coexists with science, and the Earth is a battleground between Heaven
and Hell. Between God and the Devil are the five Incarnations -- once-human
manifestations of Death, Time, War, Fate, and Nature. Neutral in principle,
they often oppose the Devil in practice. When Zane's time comes to die,
Death comes for him -- and winds up taking the bullet meant for Zane. By
the 'rules', Zane gets the job and becomes the new Death -- and the Devil
takes advantage of his lack of experience to further a scheme meant to
give Hell control of the Earth. Each sequel tells the story of a different
Incarnation. As is typical, the series goes downhill after a promising start.
"Split Infinity" (***) is the first of three -- and ultimately seven --
books in the "Apprentice Adept" sf/fantasy series. Proton is a fabulously
rich planet whose Citizens are served by 'serfs' -- people from other worlds
who are happy to take long-term contracts as almost-property for extremely
high pay. The chief recreation on Proton is "the Game" -- a complex
competitive framework which supplies most of the digressions in the series.
Phaze is a parallel world in which magic replaces science. The murder of
the Blue Adept, one of the most powerful mages of Phaze, enables Stile,
his Proton analogue and one of the foremost Game players, to enter Phaze
and take his place. As an adept on Phaze and as a major Game competitor
on Proton, he battles what turn out to be related dangers.
"Sos the Rope" (***) begins one of Anthony's earliest series, the "Battle
Circle" trilogy. In a post-holocaust future, men wander around duelling
with primitive weapons, or settle into small tribes whose leadership is
determined by this code duello. (Women function primarily as camp followers.)
This 'idyll' is shattered when Sol and Sos -- respectively an unbeatable
warrior and a thinker -- join forces and begin to create an empire.
"Refugee" (**) begins the five-volume "Bio of a Space Tyrant" -- a novel
of contemporary politics, artificially placed in a science-fictional setting.
Anthony's political prescriptions follow the rather corrupt tradition of
"Here is what I would do if I were President *and* had dictatorial powers."
The "Cluster" series -- a trilogy beginning with "Cluster" (**) and two
stand-alone novels -- is placed in a future in which interstellar travel
is expensive, but it is practical to interact with other worlds by projecting
one's personality into a host -- if one has a strong enough Kirlian aura.
Each book in the trilogy has a different character with an exceptionally
powerful aura serving as a key player in an intergalactic struggle. A
prequel -- the "Tarot" trilogy -- is probably better thought of.
A number of Anthony's stand-alone novels are worth at least mentioning.
"Triple Detente" (***) is structured around the question of how to make
good government and self-interest congruent -- and begins when Earth and
another world...conquer each other. "Prostho Plus" (***) is silly fun:
A dentist (a prosthodontist, actually) is kidnapped by a space alien with
a toothache, and finds himself being passed from planet to planet in a
never-ending battle against interstellar tooth decay. Steppe (**+) is
essentially a retelling of the history of Genghis Khan, within the context
of a futuristic role-playing game.
Anthony has also coauthored many novels, mostly with mediocre results.
Among these is his recent and unlikely collaboration with Mercedes Lackey,
titled "If I Pay Thee Not in Gold" (**). I came away from this book with
the impression that Lackey had done the word-smithing (which is better
than Anthony's usual) while adhering to a fairly generic Piers Anthony plot
outline. The result is a book for Anthony fans, not for Lackey fans.
Comments and Recommendations: If you're looking for books that are
thoughtful and thought-provoking, with plausible characters facing
meaningful challenges, don't waste your time with Piers Anthony. If
you're looking for trash, and aren't put off by a few stylistic quirks --
including shallow characterization, a juvenile attitude towards women,
obsessive patterning of the story, and a tendency for characters to
determine the fate of the galaxy by challenging each other to a game of
monopoly or such like -- Anthony writes *good* trash. Bear in mind that
these books are written primarily for younger readers, and written down,
at that: The ethical dimension of Anthony's writing is pronounced, but
it's shallow and simplistic.
None of which means that you won't enjoy his books. Millions do. I do.
Sometimes. The important rule to remember is to start at the beginning of
a series, and not to expect a declining series to get better. I haven't
tried to be exhaustive in listing Anthony's novels -- or even in listing
his series. It's more useful to think of Piers Anthony's books as a
commodity, in the sense that a Harlequin romance is a commodity: The
question isn't "which are the good ones?" so much as "do I feel like
reading one?" One of his books is about as good as another for answering
that question.
Disclaimer: Don't think of this as a review series. It's just unnumbered
to help me keep track.
%A Anthony, Piers
%T Macroscope
%S The Xanth Series
%S Incarnations of Immortality
%S The Apprentice Adept
%S Battle Circle
%S Bio of a Space Tyrant
%S Cluster
%T Triple Detente
%T Prostho Plus
%T Steppe
%T If I Pay Thee Not in Gold
%O The last coauthored with Mercedes Lackey
-----
Dani Zweig
da...@netcom.com
If you're going to write, don't pretend to write down. It's going to be the
best you can do, and it's the fact that it's the best you can do that kills
you! -- Dorothy Parker
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Androgynous kinky vanilla queer het
Seeking job in Silicon Valley doing database tech support. E-mail for resume.
Bob McQueer
dated 7 Jun 1994 00:54:25 GMT,
san...@u.washington.edu (Arun Sannuti) writes:
> Because Piers Anthony CAN write better stories (and has; I disagree
> with somebody who has said recently that they thought _Macroscope_ was
> trash.), but chooses to put out mindless drek. He has a much higher
> potential, but chooses to make money by writing prepubescent fantasies.
Yep. One really can't fault Anthony for a decision to do what will
make him commercially successful, but when he does so, it is to be
expected that his results are going to be viewed in forums like this
one about the same way "Miller Lite" is viewed in "alt.beer".
Some of Anthony's own forwards make rather interesting reading in this
regard. They ought to be published in a volume of their own, which I
might snidely suggest titling "The Confessions of a Commercial Hack.".
Mark E. Davidson
mer...@provolone.bchem.washington.edu (Ethan A Merritt) wrote:
... actually, this is a follow-up to all the posts on this subject...
I have to agree with what everyone has written. I remember reading
"Macroscope" for a class as a high school senior and loving it. I also
enjoyed the first 3 books of the "Xanth" series, along with the Tarot
series. However, I just couldn't stomach the rest of the Xanth series,
along with some of the more recent stuff. What sent me over the edge was
"Ghost", which I thought was one of the WORST novels I have ever read.
When I read "Ghost", I had stopped reading Mr. Anthony's novels for a while
and I thought "I'll give him a try again; maybe I was just in a bad mood".
Boy, was I wrong!
I haven't even looked at a Piers Anthony book since.
--
Mark E. Davidson | "Remember, no matter where
Sr. Software Engineer | you go, there you are..."
Sony Electronic Publishing | -- Buckaroo Bonzai
Monterey, CA 93940 | davi...@pdsc.com
Thomas Petersen
Not to mention what Stephen King (writing as Richard Bachman) would
think of someone who had the gall to rewrite his novel _The Running Man_ :-)
You're probably thinking of his novelization of _Total Recall_
based vaguely on PK Dick's short story _We Can Remember it for
You Wholesale_. (And a sidenote: Originally David Cronenberg
was asked to do _Total Recall_, but he insisted on actually basing the
movie on PK Dicks short story. Naturally he was fired and somebody
more malleable took over.)
Thomas
The Wandering Jew
: I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed that
: any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
: the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
:[snip] What gives? [snip]
I still think that his pre-1980 efforts were laudable if imperfect, as for
the present... well, I'll let Anthony explain his position. The following
quotes are from his interview in Thrust #25 (Winter 1986).
"To sell copies, it is necessary to appeal to the broad middle spectrum of
the readership, which includes people with IQ's from 80 to 120 [...] I
don't know whether I have improved as a writer over the years, but I have
zeroed increasingly in on the paying market." But he goes on to say "I do
try to write on more than one level, with a highly and clearly plotted
narrative for most readers, and symbolic levels for the more perceptive
ones."
"I'm not doing well because I'm a better writer than others, but because
I'm doing a series in a popular genre. [...] It amazes me that other
writers don't catch on and try the same."
"Like Cassandra, I see the trends clearly..."
"I'll be remembered for Xanth."
--
aha...@clark.net Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Robert Conquest's Second Law
Every organization appears to be headed by secret agents of its opponents
Michele Jasman
I liked some of his first books in the Xanth, Immortality,
and Adept series, but then he seemed to turn into a pervert.
It came to a point in his books where all of his female
characters were at least threatened with rape (if not raped)
even if these females were six years old.
I can't believe that he has daughters (though I know he does)
because he certainly has gotten a weird view of the place
of women in the world.
John Novak
>"I'm not doing well because I'm a better writer than others, but because
>I'm doing a series in a popular genre. [...] It amazes me that other
>writers don't catch on and try the same."
This may be showing the high side of my arrogance, and a bit of
my cynicism, but I might put forth the idea that other writers
have standards for themselves, especially once they've seen that
they can sell _decent_ novels, original and fresh, instead of
throwing the same old crap in the microwave one more time for
another left-over.
>"I'll be remembered for Xanth."
Put that on his tombstone in thirty years.
Please.
"Here lies the author of the Xanth bookses."
David A Bergman
: narrative for most readers, and symbolic levels for the more perceptive
: ones."
What?!?!? Symbolic levels?!?!? Sure.
: "I'm not doing well because I'm a better writer than others, but because
: I'm doing a series in a popular genre. [...] It amazes me that other
: writers don't catch on and try the same."
Kind of sad, isn't it?
: "I'll be remembered for Xanth."
Even sadder. Does this man really want Xanth as his greatest work???
Aaron
: --
Scott Davies
> I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed
> that any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of
> disclaimer to the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please
> don't flame me."
How can you respect someone who writes books titled, "The Color of Her
Panties"?
Juvenal.
Currently reading: "Greyhawk Adventures: Saga of Old City" by Gary Gygax
The Wandering Jew
: I liked some of his first books in the Xanth, Immortality,
: and Adept series, but then he seemed to turn into a pervert. [snip]
A pervert I could live with, but a hack pervert... ;-)
John Stoffel
In article <Cr1w1...@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> pete...@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Thomas Petersen) writes:
Thomas> In article <JOHN.94J...@avante.wpi.edu>,
Thomas> John Stoffel <jo...@avante.WPI.EDU> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Henry" == Henry Churchyard <chur...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu> writes:
>> In article <2svpof$e...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu> chur...@sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (Henry Churchyard) writes:
>>
>> And anyone who takes money to write the novelization of the movie "The
>> Running Man" can't be worth much. And this is from someone who loved
>> "On a Pale Horse". Philip K. Dick must be spinning in his grave over
>> this one....
Thomas> Not to mention what Stephen King (writing as Richard Bachman)
Thomas> would think of someone who had the gall to rewrite his novel
Thomas> _The Running Man_ :-)
Touche! I apologize profusely to all who took my statement as
factual. My opinion stands. :] Thanks Thomas.
Thomas> You're probably thinking of his novelization of _Total Recall_
Thomas> based vaguely on PK Dick's short story _We Can Remember it for
Thomas> You Wholesale_. (And a sidenote: Originally David Cronenberg
Thomas> was asked to do _Total Recall_, but he insisted on actually
Thomas> basing the movie on PK Dicks short story. Naturally he was
Thomas> fired and somebody more malleable took over.)
Why am I not surpised?
John
Frossie
(John Stoffel) writes:
>And anyone who takes money to write the novelization of the movie "The
>Running Man" can't be worth much. And this is from someone who loved
>"On a Pale Horse". Philip K. Dick must be spinning in his grave over
>this one....
>
Imminent faux pas... i thought the Running Man was based on a Stephen
King story (written under a pseudonym) ? Not that the film bore any
relation to the story so I wouldn't really know...
Frossie, neatly avoiding expressing an opinion on Piers Anthony
--
Internet e...@star.qmw.ac.uk - SPAN 19766::ee - finger e...@starsun1.ph.qmw.ac.uk
"The attention span of a computer is only as long as its electrical cord."
John Angus
In a previous article, da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michele Jasman) says:
>
>I liked some of his first books in the Xanth, Immortality,
>and Adept series, but then he seemed to turn into a pervert.
>
Actually, I stopped reading him because he became boring.
Now if he's turned into a pervert maybe I should start again!
JA
--
ABCED...ABV...ABCDEFT...ABCDEFGHIKLA...ABCDEW...ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ!
John Angus O O Pure heart
Ottawa, Ontario v Filthy Mind.
Canada {#####}
Parmly Billings Lib
gets paid a ton of money to do it. We should all be so fortunate.
--Tshen
Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
The Wandering Jew
: All hail Piers Anthony. He does something he loves for a living, and he
: gets paid a ton of money to do it. We should all be so fortunate.
Assuming you are not trolling: Yes and no. Yes because he once stated that
he always wanted to write sf. No because he is on record saying he would
like to write serious stuff (like horror) but he has a hard time selling
it so he has to keep writing Xanth. You have to pay for everything.
Assuming you are trolling: Anthony in '96! (For Grand Master, of course -
being foreign born, he is not eligible for Presidency, rats...)
Kelly Sedinger
> I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed that
> any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of disclaimer to
> the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please don't flame me."
>
> I can think of a number of other authors whose works are discussed here
> whose work I would put in the same (or even a lower) category.
>
> access it, so please don't direct me there. I'm not a rabid Anthony
> fan, just a perplexed reader).
My personal opinion is that Anthony has some good ideas for stories, but that
he's inept when it comes to implementing them. If you read the Author's Notes
in the back of each volume in the Incarnations of Immortality series, you get
a good feel for how the guy works. If I remember correctly, he writes exactly
*two* drafts for each book, as quickly as possible, and he doesn't really have
to worry about the quality because he's already sold the novel. (He writes
up detailed proposals of his potential novels and then submits these to the
publisher; the publisher decides whether or not to buy the book depending on
these proposals, and *not* the finished book. At one point, Anthony crows
about how his income skyrocketed when he started doing this; no longer was
he worrying about selling what he wrote, as he was now writing what he sold.)
It seems to me that Anthony is more concerned with being prolific than he is
with really turning out good books on a consistent basis. The guy can put out
four books a year, but frequently they are less than satisfactory in the
character development department. There are also very frequent problems of
pacing. For just one example of this, check out "Bearing an Hourglass", which
diverts from the main plot several times to show the main character meandering
around a goofy fantasy world, and which crashes to a halt toward the novel's
climax while the main character receives a briefing on Particle Physics,
which ultimately doesn't seem too important to the resolution of the novel.
I think that Anthony would be better served if he were to slow down and work
his books out a bit more. However, he is unlikely to do this, as he is quite
proud of his "assembly line" manner of output, and he views authors who do
not work to the same extent as he does as "pseudo-professional who are not
really interested in working". (His words.)
---
=====================================================
The Universe, and all it encompasses, is one,
including the works of man; for who is man but
the work of some higher force?
Kelly Sedinger sedi...@marx.sbu.edu
=====================================================
John Novak
>All hail Piers Anthony. He does something he loves for a living, and he
>gets paid a ton of money to do it. We should all be so fortunate.
If he honestly believes he's putting out quality books, fine. I
disagree, but more power to him.
If he realizes that he's just schlepping along, intentionally
pandering to the lowest common denominator, then to hell with
him. I couldn't live with myself, with those ethics. And the
same for _any_ author, my revered Williams, Jordan, Kay, and
Sheffield (to name a few, in no particular order) included.
Jonathan Burns
Scott_...@kcbbs.gen.nz (Scott Davies) writes:
> Peter Venetoklis writes:
> > I've been following this list for a few months, and have noticed
> > that any mention of Piers Anthony is followed by some form of
> > disclaimer to the effect "I know you all hate his stuff, and please
> > don't flame me."
> > What gives?
>
> How can you respect someone who writes books titled, "The Color of Her
> Panties"?
I almost bought it. It seemed to be a tipoff that there was more
going on than meets the eye.
Jonno
Debra Fran Baker
>It seems to me that Anthony is more concerned with being prolific than he is
>with really turning out good books on a consistent basis. The guy can put out
>four books a year, but frequently they are less than satisfactory in the
>character development department. There are also very frequent problems of
>pacing. For just one example of this, check out "Bearing an Hourglass", which
>diverts from the main plot several times to show the main character meandering
>around a goofy fantasy world, and which crashes to a halt toward the novel's
>climax while the main character receives a briefing on Particle Physics,
>which ultimately doesn't seem too important to the resolution of the novel.
It's actually possible to read the Incarnations series without _Bearing
an Hourglass_. It adds almost nothing to the general plot of the
series. You find out he lives backward in the other books, after all.
I have other reasons for disliking the series - basically, when it comes
to religion, it takes a somewhat greater effort for me to suspend
disbelief, especially if it's a basically Christian universe with Greek
additions. There seems to be little place for Jewish beliefs there. <shrug>
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
* For its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace. *
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Debbie Baker dfb...@panix.com
Brett Holman
|> In article <JOHN.94J...@avante.WPI.EDU> jo...@avante.WPI.EDU
|> (John Stoffel) writes:
|>
|> >And anyone who takes money to write the novelization of the movie "The
|> >Running Man" can't be worth much. And this is from someone who loved
|> >"On a Pale Horse". Philip K. Dick must be spinning in his grave over
|> >this one....
|> >
|>
|> Imminent faux pas... i thought the Running Man was based on a Stephen
|> King story (written under a pseudonym) ? Not that the film bore any
|> relation to the story so I wouldn't really know...
Anthony actually wrote the novelization of Total Recall, which itself
was based on a Phil Dick short story.
|> Frossie, neatly avoiding expressing an opinion on Piers Anthony
|> --
|> Internet e...@star.qmw.ac.uk - SPAN 19766::ee - finger e...@starsun1.ph.qmw.ac.uk
|> "The attention span of a computer is only as long as its electrical cord."
|>
|>
--
______________________________________________________________________
Brett Holman hol...@tauon.ph.unimelb.edu.au
School of Physics
University of Melbourne I can't believe that I, let alone the Uni,
AUSTRALIA would hold the opinions expressed here.
Stop quoting the laws to us. We carry swords. - Pompey the Great
David A Bergman
: I have other reasons for disliking the series - basically, when it comes
: disbelief, especially if it's a basically Christian universe with Greek
: additions. There seems to be little place for Jewish beliefs there. <shrug>
What do you mean (#insert <sarcasm.h>) he had the old god whose
time had passed by, YHWH
Aaron
: --
David A Bergman
<sarcasm on>
What do you mean? We meet the god YHWH whose time is over. He's been
passed by.
Aaron
: --
David A Bergman
...
Sorry about the double post. Computer problems :)
Aaron
Bronis Vidugiris
)The Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) wrote:
): narrative for most readers, and symbolic levels for the more perceptive
): ones."
)
)What?!?!? Symbolic levels?!?!? Sure.
Yep.
Anthony once mentioned this truly elaborate (and IMO somewhat obsessive)
structuring of one of his books around a particular number in one of his long
commentaries. Nobody noticed! (I don't recall the details/titles anymore).
It'd be interesting to compare with Brust - who did something similar, but
it was noticed. (Not by me, but there is a recurring numeric theme that
was mentioned on the net recently.)
--
"The power of this battlestation is _insignificant_ when compared with
the power of the Farce." - D. Vader.
David DeLaney
>da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michele Jasman) says:
>>I liked some of his first books in the Xanth, Immortality,
>>and Adept series, but then he seemed to turn into a pervert.
>>
>Actually, I stopped reading him because he became boring.
>Now if he's turned into a pervert maybe I should start again!
His latest collaboration, Dead Morn, seems (at least from the first 10 pages
or so) to be full of Real Actual Sex; maybe he got tired at last of the Adult
Conspiracy...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableFUTPLEX
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
Arthur Hlavaty
: His latest collaboration, Dead Morn, seems (at least from the first 10
: pages or so) to be full of Real Actual Sex; maybe he got tired at last
: of the Adult Conspiracy...
Not his latest collaboration; the first of a series published in
the 70s.
--
Arthur D. Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
"The Mason's face is ajar."--Firesign Theater
Nancy Lebovitz
the sales for _Macroscope_ (which he considered his most ambitious book)
and made the decision to go with the money.
Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email (20
"So many books, so little time"
--
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