Turtledove The Racist?
Ed Stasiak
In The Balance" and as I read it, I'm kinda shocked
at several comments (so far) that he makes about
the Poles in the book;
"Tadeusz Bor-Komorowski, the leader of the Home Army,
came out of Zolraag's office. He did not look happy.
He looked even less happy on seeing Russie. 'What are
you going to pry out of him now, Jew?' he growled.
'They will give you anything you like, it seems."
"The Armja Krajowa hated them [the Jewish militia
in Warsaw]. Many of the Mausers had come to them
from the Lizards: more arms then the new conquerors
gave the Polish Home Army."
"The Poles resented having their rations cut to help
feed the Jews, and the Jews were angry at the Poles
for not understanding - or for approving of - their
plight under the Nazis."
"In the waiting room outside the governors office sat
a masculine-looking young Catholic priest. His pale
eyes went icy for a moments when they met the Jew's,
but he managed a civil nod," [Karol Wojtyla, later
Pope JPII in OTL?]
"Bor-Komorowski was a good Polish patriot, which made
him only a little less fascist - or perhaps just less
efficiently fascist - then Hienrich Himmler."
Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
Polish character in the book so far.
If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest
of the book, not only won't I be buying any more of the
"Worldwar" series but I'll never buy another book from
him again.
d1b...@anonymous.to
I'm not sure what would be "racist" about any of this. Although I
don't recognize the specific , the last paragraph you quote is classic
Turtledove POV-narration. Turtledove rarely, in the Worldwar series at
least, uses the omnescient narrator; observations and opinions like
that reflect the thoughts of whoever is the POV character in that
passage, in this case probably Anielewicz.
And, er, it's sad but true that Bor-Komorowski, and lots and lots of
Poles in the 1930s and 1940s, *were* awfully anti-semitic.
Dorothy J Heydt
Ed Stasiak <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>"Bor-Komorowski was a good Polish patriot, which made
>him only a little less fascist - or perhaps just less
>efficiently fascist - then Hienrich Himmler."
>
>Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
>Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
>He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
>and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
>Polish character in the book so far.
I haven't read the books (since the first volume, which made me
ill) and don't plan to. However, I do urge you to consider
whether a given attitude is that of the writer, or that of the
character.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Bill Snyder
>I recently picked up Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar:
>In The Balance" and as I read it, I'm kinda shocked
>at several comments (so far) that he makes about
>the Poles in the book;
I was told some years back that it was not uncommon for surviving
Polish Jews -- and we're talking, pretty much by definition, about
concentration-camp survivors here -- to hate Poles worse than Germans.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Sydney Webb
<snip>
> I haven't read the books (since the first volume, which made me
> ill) and don't plan to. However, I do urge you to consider
> whether a given attitude is that of the writer, or that of the
> character.
Sound advice, Ms Heydt!
And since this is a thread that looks like it could run and run - and
since it is discussing the author of works of speculative fiction - I'll
take the liberty of trimming the headers to remove the cross-posting and
steer the conversation to r.a.sf.w
{A note to Ed Stasiak who initiated this thread. Many readers set their
killfiles to automatically delete cross-posts. You gain a wider
audience, paradoxically, by not cross-posting.]
- Syd
phil hunt
>In The Balance" and as I read it, I'm kinda shocked
>at several comments (so far) that he makes about
>the Poles in the book;
Some characters in the book might be racist; doesn't make Turtledove
one.
>"The Armja Krajowa hated them [the Jewish militia
>in Warsaw].
In the scenario given, it seems entirely plausible that the Polish
and Jewish armed forces might hate each other, both from what we
know of how Poles behaved towarfds Jews historically in that era
and from the general consideration that humans often are bigotted.
Plus, if they represent different centers of power (which they do),
that gives them a reason to be at odds with each other.
>"The Poles resented having their rations cut to help
>feed the Jews, and the Jews were angry at the Poles
>for not understanding - or for approving of - their
>plight under the Nazis."
It's highly plausible that people might think like this, IMO.
>"In the waiting room outside the governors office sat
>a masculine-looking young Catholic priest. His pale
>eyes went icy for a moments when they met the Jew's,
>but he managed a civil nod," [Karol Wojtyla, later
>Pope JPII in OTL?]
>
>"Bor-Komorowski was a good Polish patriot, which made
>him only a little less fascist - or perhaps just less
>efficiently fascist - then Hienrich Himmler."
>
>Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
>Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
>He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis,
All Poles? Or just the few individuals the story portrays.
--
Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk
phil hunt
>On 1 Jun 2005 21:17:09 -0700, "Ed Stasiak" <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>
>>I recently picked up Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar:
>>In The Balance" and as I read it, I'm kinda shocked
>>at several comments (so far) that he makes about
>>the Poles in the book;
>
>I was told some years back that it was not uncommon for surviving
>Polish Jews -- and we're talking, pretty much by definition, about
>concentration-camp survivors here -- to hate Poles worse than Germans.
I've no idea if that's true, but if it is, it's probably because of
incidents like this:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Kielce.html
horseshoe7
Ed Stasiak wrote:
> Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
> Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
> and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
> Polish character in the book so far.
In one of the WORLDWAR books, a Jewish dude and a Polish gal get it on
in the back seat of an old car... she was quite sympathetic... also,
the Polish family he stays with seem like decent-enough folks; the
father is the town Doctor (who whoops him at chess repeatadely), the
mother is the town midwife.
I think the ethnic group that really comes out looking the worst
throughout the series are the Estonians (due to the farmhouse shootout
scene in book 3)... but, you can't judge Mr. Turtledove's opinion of
ALL Estonians, just because the Estonians in this particular passage
end up looking like fools.
I've seen where British reviewers give the series a bad review, because
the English end up losing pretty much everything by the end of book
4... the lizards don't even bother nuking them (although they nuke
Australia twice)... even Canada comes out better off than England.
Me, I think that Turtledove is a LIZARD RASCIST! Most of the Lizards
are depicted as Ginger addicts with zero family values.
> If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest
> of the book, not only won't I be buying any more of the
> "Worldwar" series but I'll never buy another book from
> him again.
I'm sure he will be heartbroken.
- Stewart
Matt Giwer
> I haven't read the books (since the first volume, which made me
> ill) and don't plan to. However, I do urge you to consider
> whether a given attitude is that of the writer, or that of the
> character.
He must get a lot of that. I was at the worldcon in Orlando in 92 and went to his workshop. "There
is a technical term for people who cannot distinguish between the opinion of the author and the
opinion of a character. That term is idiot."
--
Zionist refusal to admit Palestinians are people whose
ancestors converted from Judaism to Islam does not
help to bring peace.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3445
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7
ncw...@hotmail.com
horseshoe7 wrote:
> Ed Stasiak wrote:
>
> > Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
> > Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> > He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
> > and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
> > Polish character in the book so far.
>
> In one of the WORLDWAR books, a Jewish dude and a Polish gal get it on
> in the back seat of an old car... she was quite sympathetic... also,
> the Polish family he stays with seem like decent-enough folks; the
> father is the town Doctor (who whoops him at chess repeatadely), the
> mother is the town midwife.
>
> I think the ethnic group that really comes out looking the worst
> throughout the series are the Estonians (due to the farmhouse shootout
> scene in book 3)... but, you can't judge Mr. Turtledove's opinion of
> ALL Estonians, just because the Estonians in this particular passage
> end up looking like fools.
>
I think Turtledove is something of an anglophobe. This is more obvious
in his Great War series, but also shows up towards the end of the
WorldWar series where he hints that England is turning towards fascism
(something he makes explicit in Colonisation).
> I've seen where British reviewers give the series a bad review, because
> the English end up losing pretty much everything by the end of book
> 4... the lizards don't even bother nuking them (although they nuke
> Australia twice)... even Canada comes out better off than England.
>
I don't know. England is the only country in the series that manages
to defend itself without using Nukes.
> Me, I think that Turtledove is a LIZARD RASCIST! Most of the Lizards
> are depicted as Ginger addicts with zero family values.
>
> > If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest
> > of the book, not only won't I be buying any more of the
> > "Worldwar" series but I'll never buy another book from
> > him again.
>
> I'm sure he will be heartbroken.
>
Ain't that the sad and sorry truth. The next criticism that he cares
about will be the first.
Cheers,
Nigel.
Robert Kolker
>
> Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
> Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
> and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
> Polish character in the book so far.
At that time there might have been 23 Poles who were not anti-semitic.
If the shoe-ski fits.... etc.
Bob Kolker
how...@brazee.net
On 1-Jun-2005, "Ed Stasiak" <esta...@att.net> wrote:
> If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest
> of the book, not only won't I be buying any more of the
> "Worldwar" series but I'll never buy another book from
> him again.
Huh? How can you write novels that take place in WWII without showing
racist characters? Why would you want to? Especially racism against
Jews.
Christopher Adams
> Ed Stasiak wrote:
>
>> "Bor-Komorowski was a good Polish patriot, which made
>> him only a little less fascist - or perhaps just less
>> efficiently fascist - then Hienrich Himmler."
>>
>> Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
>> Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
>> He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis,
>
> All Poles? Or just the few individuals the story portrays.
I seem to recall a pretty friendly Pole at the beginning.
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in any country.
Ed Stasiak
> > Ed Stasiak wrote
> >
> > Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> > He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis,
>
> All Poles? Or just the few individuals the story portrays.
All the Poles so far in the first book, yes.
The only one that isn't portrayed as an out-right racist
is some Pole we never see and who has no lines who tosses
a bag of partially rotted pork over the wall into the
Jewish Ghetto, of course he only does it in exchange
for a solid silver candle stick.
S.M. Sterling (the author that many in s.h.w-i love to
hate) somehow manages to provide his characters with a
wide ranging balance of attitudes, even a character
like William Walker isn't portrayed as a wholly evil,
mustache twirling bad guy.
I've read several of Turtledove's "American Empire"
series and don't remember any group being so vilified.
For example, the otherwise racist hillbilly Southern
types are shown as at least questioning their beliefs
but the Poles in "Worldwar" are nothing more then card
board cut-outs of ignorant racist peasants, even army
generals and probably even Karol Wojtyla.
Turtledove even manages to drop a line in about the
Poles charging panzers on horseback armed only with
lances....
Ed Stasiak
> > Ed Stasiak wrote
> >
> > Only a little less fascist then Himmler?!
>
> who were not anti-semitic. If the shoe-ski
> fits.... etc.
Maybe you're right? Since other then a small
handful of Jews, it's common knowledge that
virtually all of them are big-nosed, shifty-eyed,
money grubbing, Communist racists bent on
taking over the world.
After all, a bunch of Nazis told me so....
Ed Stasiak
>
> {A note to Ed Stasiak who initiated this thread.
> Many readers set their killfiles to automatically
> delete cross-posts. You gain a wider audience,
> paradoxically, by not cross-posting.]
IMO that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.
One should at least look at a thread before deciding
to killfile it and I felt that this was appropriate
for both groups. And while I've only made a handful
of posts to r.a.sf.w, most people know me in s.h.w-i
and know that I'm not a troll.
jussi....@faf.mil.fi
> And, er, it's sad but true that Bor-Komorowski, and lots and lots of
> Poles in the 1930s and 1940s, *were* awfully anti-semitic.
Somehow, I've never managed to cross upon one single mention that
Bor-Komorowski was personally anti-semitic, let alone to an "awful"
degree.
Obviously, I know little of the subject, but since this information
must have some kind of a source, I can presumably ask for a cite [1].
ObWI: Instead of the uncritical public belief in the fantasies created
in Leon Uris novels, marshal Mannerheim is correctly and rightfully
regarded as the anti-Semitist that he historically was. Effects?
Cheers,
Jalonen
[1] Other than Turtledove, that is. [2]
[2] And the articles on Komorowski and Warsaw Rising at the website of
the Simon Wiesenthal Centre doesn't qualify, either, because they
manage to be both incorrect and contradictory.
James Nicoll
Ed Stasiak <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>> Sydney Webb wrote
>>
>> {A note to Ed Stasiak who initiated this thread.
>> Many readers set their killfiles to automatically
>> delete cross-posts. You gain a wider audience,
>> paradoxically, by not cross-posting.]
>
>IMO that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Limited life span, low useful to crap ratio of
xposted articles. See, for example, the neo-nazis who
xpost to shwi. Killfile net timesaver. Sentences apparently
fragmentary.
Do you want to take a defensible position on this
or to be read? Because the fact is a lot of people dumped
xposted articles into the L7 file ages ago.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
Michael S. Schiffer
@reader1.panix.com:
> In article <1117717711....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Ed Stasiak <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>>> Sydney Webb wrote
>>> {A note to Ed Stasiak who initiated this thread.
>>> Many readers set their killfiles to automatically
>>> delete cross-posts. You gain a wider audience,
>>> paradoxically, by not cross-posting.]
>>IMO that's throwing out the baby with the bath water.
> Limited life span, low useful to crap ratio of
> xposted articles. See, for example, the neo-nazis who
> xpost to shwi. Killfile net timesaver.
Also, even if the original article is worthwhile, the nigh-
inevitable culture clash between the crossposted groups causes
threads to go south much more quickly and reliably than single-group
threads. (I've noticed this even where I normally read both
groups-- what's long-established local character on one group can
read like abrasive trolling on another that's not used to it.)
This may be what you mean by "limited life span", I'm not sure.
Sentences apparently
> fragmentary.
> Do you want to take a defensible position on this
> or to be read? Because the fact is a lot of people dumped
> xposted articles into the L7 file ages ago.
I haven't only because I haven't been bothered to check my
newsreader's documentation on how to do that globally. (I do tend
to dump crossposted threads into the killfile very quickly once they
appear.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
W. Citoan
Yes, exactly. Mr. Stasiak should brush up on his history as it's clear
he doesn't understand that Germany found willing helpers across Europe
for it's treatment of the Jews.
- W. Citoan
--
Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the
candle will not be shortened. Happiness is never decreased by being shared.
-- Buddha
horseshoe7
ncw...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> I think Turtledove is something of an anglophobe. This is more obvious
> in his Great War series, but also shows up towards the end of the
> WorldWar series where he hints that England is turning towards fascism
> (something he makes explicit in Colonisation).
I'm just starting the ColoniZation series.
> I don't know. England is the only country in the series that manages
> to defend itself without using Nukes.
Because they were the first to use GAS! :)
> > I'm sure he will be heartbroken.
> >
>
> Ain't that the sad and sorry truth. The next criticism that he cares
> about will be the first.
My mouth just fell open.
- Stewart
Dan Goodman
> And that myth is so entrenched that it's resonable
> that Turtledove didn't research that too hard.
> I too took that as fact untill i googled it right now. :P
Since Turtledove is a professional historian, that kind of sloppiness is
_not_ reasonable.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Peter Bruells
> S.M. Sterling (the author that many in s.h.w-i love to hate) somehow
> manages to provide his characters with a wide ranging balance of
> attitudes, even a character like William Walker isn't portrayed as a
> wholly evil, mustache twirling bad guy.
LOL. I've yet to see a less developed and more stereotyped villain
than the Nazi Stirling dropped into his third Island book....
har...@missinglink.com
Nicoll) wrote:
> Limited life span, low useful to crap ratio of
>xposted articles. See, for example, the neo-nazis who
>xpost to shwi.
And then non other than Matt Giwer posts in this thread..
Ed Stasiak
>
> Yes, exactly. Mr. Stasiak should brush up on his history
> as it's clear he doesn't understand that Germany found willing
> helpers across Europe for it's treatment of the Jews.
Which explains why Poland, apparently populated with
card-carrying hard-core anti-semites (little better then
Himmler himself!) and home to the majority of the worlds
Jews, was the only nation that didn't provide a volunteer
SS unit to aid the Germans during WWII.
W. Citoan
Bull, the Selbschutz was under SS control.
Poland suffered heavily under the Germans (and later under the Soviets),
but to pretend that there wasn't anti-Semitism is ludicrous. Jedwabne
attests to that...
- W. Citoan
--
The middle of the road is where the white line is - and that's the worst
place to drive.
-- Robert Frost
boles...@forpresident.com
This MAY have been true in the 16th/17th centuries ; it was certainly
true
of the Ashkenazic Jewish population then (there are no reliable
statistics on the Sephardic population at the time) but I don't think
it was
still true by the time WW2 broke out.
Robert Kolker
>
> Which explains why Poland, apparently populated with
> card-carrying hard-core anti-semites (little better then
> Himmler himself!) and home to the majority of the worlds
> Jews, was the only nation that didn't provide a volunteer
> SS unit to aid the Germans during WWII.
The Narzis considered the Poles untermenschen. They were probably right.
After all how is a polish SS man suppoed to give a Narzi salute if his
right thumb is stuck up his arse.
Bob Kolker
d1b...@anonymous.to
jussi....@faf.mil.fi wrote:
> d1b...@anonymous.to wrote:
>
> > And, er, it's sad but true that Bor-Komorowski, and lots and lots of
> > Poles in the 1930s and 1940s, *were* awfully anti-semitic.
>
> Somehow, I've never managed to cross upon one single mention that
> Bor-Komorowski was personally anti-semitic, let alone to an "awful"
> degree.
>
> Obviously, I know little of the subject, but since this information
> must have some kind of a source, I can presumably ask for a cite [1].
Well, since you've seen the Wiesenthal thing, you've seen "one single
mention," just one that you disagree with, so can the sarcasm, please.
I don't have much, but the whole thing seems to step from his Order
#116.
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/199/piotrowski.html
discusses is it, and there's some discussion elsewhere on the net. I
don't know what the order actually said. But I confess I haven't
really studied the subject in depth and "awfully anti-semitic" should
not have been said of Komorowski himself, just of "lots of Poles."
how...@brazee.net
France.
boles...@forpresident.com
alanm...@yahoo.com
horseshoe7 wrote:
> ncw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I think Turtledove is something of an anglophobe. This is more obvious
> > in his Great War series, but also shows up towards the end of the
> > WorldWar series where he hints that England is turning towards fascism
> > (something he makes explicit in Colonisation).
I've enjoyed the Great War series, but coming up to WWII,
Turtledove's alternate history is too predictable and too much like
actual history. Jake Featherstone is obviously Hitler.- A. McIntire
har...@missinglink.com
>I've always read that before Hitler, the most anti-Semitic country was
>France.
Depends on whether you define that by attitude, or actions.
The English were pretty antisemitic (Shakespeare, TSE, Chesterton and
so on), but didn't actually do much to harm Jews.
David Johnston
>I've always read that before Hitler, the most anti-Semitic country was
>France.
France was more anti-semitic than Germany before World War I. But it
wasn't a patch on Russia.
Matt Giwer
> how...@brazee.net wrote:
>> On 1-Jun-2005, "Ed Stasiak" <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>>>If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest of the book,
>>>not only won't I be buying any more of the "Worldwar" series but
>>>I'll never buy another book from him again.
>> Huh? How can you write novels that take place in WWII without
>> showing racist characters? Why would you want to? Especially
>> racism against Jews.
> Yes, exactly. Mr. Stasiak should brush up on his history as it's clear
> he doesn't understand that Germany found willing helpers across Europe
> for it's treatment of the Jews.
Just as Jews found willing helpers in Russia against Christians.
Just like Jews find willing helpers in America in their repression of Christians and Muslims in
Palestine.
Jews have so many willing helpers in their Zionist actions today it is not hard to understand but
rather can be studied in real time to see why such things happen.
--
If Milosevic was another Hitler and Hussein was another Hitler
one has to wonder why anyone thinks Hitler was so bad.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3435
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Iraqi democracy http://www.giwersworld.org/911/armless.phtml a3
Matt Giwer
The only figures for the Ashkenazis suggests there was no holocaust.
--
The guaranteed way to stop suicide bombers is to
give them F-16s and cruise missiles.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3446
Matt Giwer
Obviously Poles had no sense of morality at all as Communism was clearly a greater evil that Nazism.
--
Israel announced it would withdraw from Gaza. We are nearer the
second anniversary than the first and still nothing has happened.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3443
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
http://www.giwersworld.org
David Bilek
>Russia.
Ooooh I love word associations!
Um, "Peter the Great".
-David
(one word Usenet posts with no quoting?)
Christopher Adams
>
> I've enjoyed the Great War series, but coming up to WWII,
> Turtledove's alternate history is too predictable and too much like
> actual history. Jake Featherstone is obviously Hitler.
Really???
Fucking Hell, you'd think people hadn't realised it was DELIBERATE.
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in any country.
Duke of URL
> I recently picked up Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar:
> In The Balance" and as I read it, I'm kinda shocked
> at several comments (so far) that he makes about
> the Poles in the book;
>
> "Tadeusz Bor-Komorowski, the leader of the Home Army,
> came out of Zolraag's office. He did not look happy.
> He looked even less happy on seeing Russie. 'What are
> you going to pry out of him now, Jew?' he growled.
> 'They will give you anything you like, it seems."
>
> "The Armja Krajowa hated them [the Jewish militia
> in Warsaw]. Many of the Mausers had come to them
> from the Lizards: more arms then the new conquerors
> gave the Polish Home Army."
>
> "The Poles resented having their rations cut to help
> feed the Jews, and the Jews were angry at the Poles
> for not understanding - or for approving of - their
> plight under the Nazis."
>
> "In the waiting room outside the governors office sat
> a masculine-looking young Catholic priest. His pale
> eyes went icy for a moments when they met the Jew's,
> but he managed a civil nod," [Karol Wojtyla, later
> Pope JPII in OTL?]
>
> "Bor-Komorowski was a good Polish patriot, which made
> him only a little less fascist - or perhaps just less
> efficiently fascist - then Hienrich Himmler."
>
> Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
> Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
> and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
> Polish character in the book so far.
>
> If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest
> of the book, not only won't I be buying any more of the
> "Worldwar" series but I'll never buy another book from
> him again.
You know nothing about the enthusiastic way the Polish Christians
slaughtered Polish Jews, do you?
--
Moses.D...@gmail.com
Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler,
Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid
Robert Kolker
>
>
> You know nothing about the enthusiastic way the Polish Christians
> slaughtered Polish Jews, do you?
The Poles perfected the pogrom.
Bob Kolker
StrikitRich
> Only a little less fascist then Himmler?! WTF does
> Turtledove think he is writing racist BS like this?
> He paints the Poles as worse then the Nazis, Soviets
> and even the Lizards, there hasn't been one sympathetic
> Polish character in the book so far.
Just because you find history to be hard to stomach doesn't mean that it
shouldn't be referenced. The re-writing of history to make it more
palatable for today's dumbed down, politically correct society I find to
be more dangerous than confronting it head on.
Of course, this is a work of fiction.....
SR1
David Johnston
>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:54:19 GMT, how...@brazee.net wrote:
>
>>I've always read that before Hitler, the most anti-Semitic country was
>>France.
>
>Depends on whether you define that by attitude, or actions.
>
>The English were pretty antisemitic (Shakespeare,
Shakespeare? By the standards of Europe at the time, he was a model
of tolerance. He actually wrote a speech about how the Jews were
getting the short end of the stick.
Mike Schilling
"David Johnston" <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:42a022b...@news.telusplanet.net...
Jews having been expelled from England before he was born, he'd probably
never met one.
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> "David Johnston" <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> > Shakespeare? By the standards of Europe at the time, he was a model
> > of tolerance. He actually wrote a speech about how the Jews were
> > getting the short end of the stick.
> >
>
> Jews having been expelled from England before he was born, he'd probably
> never met one.
Quite possibly not. But Jews did live in England at the time,
either descendents of those who had not actually been expelled
(a few must have stayed, presumably those with powerful friends)
or recent immigrants (a few of those expelled from Spain and
Portugal wound up in England, though only a miniscule fraction
of the total). Some people have speculated that the political
murder of Elizabeth I's Jewish Doctor, Rodrigo Lopez, inspired
Shakespeare to write "TMOV".
IIRC Dr Lopez was using "plausible deniability". Officially
he was Christian, I think, but everyone knew his true religion.
Praise Cromwell that this became unnecessary in the 1650s.
--
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
willre...@yahoo.com
> how...@brazee.net wrote:
> >
> > On 1-Jun-2005, "Ed Stasiak" <esta...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > not only won't I be buying any more of the "Worldwar" series but
> > > I'll never buy another book from him again.
> >
> > showing racist characters? Why would you want to? Especially
> > racism against Jews.
>
> he doesn't understand that Germany found willing helpers across Europe
> for it's treatment of the Jews.
Yes, but it is always the Poles who catch shit for it. There were
plenty of anti-semites in Poland, I am sure, but the French didn't have
such a great record in this matter and neither did many other nations.
My ancestors, some of them, were from that part of Poland known as
Galicia and we are Jews. We had no tradition of assuming that all Poles
were against us, just caution in dealing with any outsiders. I think it
is too bad that this caution was so often justified but I heard of many
kind and honest people in the Old Country and many of them were Poles.
Of course, I have no problem with a novelist not carefully balancing
his characters so as to offend no one.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> - W. Citoan
> --
> Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the
> candle will not be shortened. Happiness is never decreased by being shared.
> -- Buddha
David Johnston
<willre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>W. Citoan wrote:
>> how...@brazee.net wrote:
>> >
>> > On 1-Jun-2005, "Ed Stasiak" <esta...@att.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > If this is the attitude he carries throughout the rest of the book,
>> > > not only won't I be buying any more of the "Worldwar" series but
>> > > I'll never buy another book from him again.
>> >
>> > Huh? How can you write novels that take place in WWII without
>> > showing racist characters? Why would you want to? Especially
>> > racism against Jews.
>>
>> Yes, exactly. Mr. Stasiak should brush up on his history as it's clear
>> he doesn't understand that Germany found willing helpers across Europe
>> for it's treatment of the Jews.
>
>Yes, but it is always the Poles who catch shit for it.
Well, given the peculiar role of Polish Jews in the Worldwar series,
it's to be expected in this case.
how...@brazee.net
On 2-Jun-2005, rgo...@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
> >I've always read that before Hitler, the most anti-Semitic country was
> >France.
>
> France was more anti-semitic than Germany before World War I. But it
> wasn't a patch on Russia.
I was thinking of early post WWI, before Hitler's campaign that blamed the
Jews, and Russia had already gone communist.
Paul F. Dietz
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> IIRC Dr Lopez was using "plausible deniability". Officially
> he was Christian, I think, but everyone knew his true religion.
> Praise Cromwell that this became unnecessary in the 1650s.
I'm looking forward to the sequel to the 1632/1633/etc. books
where (and you know they're going to do it) they break Cromwell
out of the ToL.
Paul
Mark Edelstein
Well to say the USSR wasn't anti-Semitic is stretching things some,
though your point is taken-the Jews were "emancipated" (if you can call
the Revolution emanciation, which is a big stretch). Actually depsite
the far right in France after WWI, I'd say France was probably less
anti-Semitic then in say 1890. The Dreyfus affair was a big deal, and
it hurt the right, and with it anti-Semitism.
Anti-Semitism was/is always strongest (at least after Emancipation)
where liberalism, and especially the rule of law was weakest, and
Russia has never seen liberalism ascendent and the rule of law
particularly strong.
Thus I'm not sure whether anti-semitism was stronger in France or
Germany. On the one hand France in many ways was less pluralist (by the
virtue of its dueling national myths, none of which were really
tolerant of minorities), but on the other hand liberalism was never
quite as accepted in Germany, and if the right was less virulent in
Germany, it was only because liberalism was less strong.
Also it is important to realize that Jews in Eastern Europe were not
really emancipated until after WWI. Prior to this they were not
considered nationals, but rather sojurners under various corporate
structures (and they saw themselves as such as well). As such a Polish
Jew was far more likely to see himself as a "Jew in Poland" (and the
same was true in much of Eastern Europe) while a French Jew was far
more likely to see himself as a Frenchmen who happened to be a Jew (and
the same was true in Germany). This is quite a gulf. Seen this way the
attitude is unsurprising-Polish Jewry (and the rest of Jewry throughout
was once the Russian Empire, as well as places like Romania) had been
emancipated for only 20 odd years, and were in environments where
liberalism was weak or non-existant. For Jewish identity to be insular
and "tribal" is not so surprising.
By comparison Jewish cultures where there was far less rigid
corporatism were far more cosmopolitan and open-Middle Eastern Jewry is
a prominent example, as well as Western European Jewry after 1789,
North American Jewry, and Jewry in much of the British Empire. This is
also evident using older example-earlier Jewish communities in Poland
for example, Spanish Jewry, and many communities in the classical
period were open and far less insular in every dimension.
jussi....@faf.mil.fi
[By the way, I wrote the following response already yesterday, but
Google Beta drew a blank when I attempted to post it. Sometimes, this
obstacle means only a delay in the eventual appearance of the article,
but since the text still isn't visible on this thread, I'll post this
again. Apologies in advance if this will result in multiple post.]
d1b...@anonymous.to loihe lausuman:
> Well, since you've seen the Wiesenthal thing, you've seen "one single
> mention," just one that you disagree with, so can the sarcasm, please
What sarcasm? An honest question, because I neither attempted to be
sarcastic, nor do I think that I was transmitting any inadverted
sarcasm, either.
As for the Wiesenthal thing, well, it's not a matter of my
disagreement, because the entry at the website is contradictory, and
hence incorrect.
First, it states on Bor-Komorowski: "His post-war claims of alleged
help offered by the Home Army to Jews, had no basis in fact".
... and then, it states on the Warsaw Rising: "While a few hundred
prisoners were liberated from the Gesia St. concentration camp".
First, the Wiesenthal Institute claims that the AK didn't provide any
help to the Jews, and that all the claims to the contrary have no basis
in fact. But yet, it still admits that during the Warsaw Rising, the AK
actually did liberate Jewish prisoners from a concentration camp. So,
it seems that the claim "no basis in fact" has, well, no basis in fact.
(By the way, the assistance that the AK provided to the Jewish partisan
groups even during the Warsaw Ghetto Insurrection is noted in
eyewitness accounts. Jewish ones, to be more precise.)
> I don't have much, but the whole thing seems to step from his Order #116.
[Shrugs] Yes, well, I knew as much. This was a controversial document
where he directly sanctioned actions against Soviet-organized and
communist-dominated partisan groups that had challenged the authority
of the Home Army in the easternmost Polish territories. Sometimes these
groups indeed had a disproportionate Jewish participation - if memory
serves, as many as 20% of the PPR membership was Jewish - so it's no
particular surprise that Bor-Komorowski specifically noted it in his
order.
It's evidently clear that the order carries an anti-Soviet tone, but
it's still very questionable whether it could be interpreted as an
anti-Semitic one. And there's definitely a very, very long way to the
conclusion that Bor-Komorowski would have reacted to a Jewish person by
hissing "What are you prying out of him now, Jew?" in an overtly
hostile and hateful tone.
Cheers,
Jalonen
how...@brazee.net
On 3-Jun-2005, "Mark Edelstein" <2m...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
> As such a Polish
> Jew was far more likely to see himself as a "Jew in Poland" (and the
> same was true in much of Eastern Europe) while a French Jew was far
> more likely to see himself as a Frenchmen who happened to be a Jew (and
> the same was true in Germany).
Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
define themselves as. Nobody likes to be told that his identity isn't good
enough for others. A person named Lopez who calls himself an American is
more likely to be accepted in Texas than a person named Lopez who calls
himself a hispanic. (Hmmm, my spell checker accepts Hispanic, but not
hispanic. That doesn't seem right to me. On the other hand, Jew seems OK
vs jew. Why?).
Robert Kolker
>
> Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
> reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
> unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
> define themselves as.
Cleaving unto a man-made State is idolatry. Jews are forbidden to
worship idols.
> Nobody likes to be told that his identity isn't good
> enough for others.
That is true. Few like it, but what if it is true that his identiy is
based on falsity and vanity? Sometimes the truth is bothersome. The
cure is not to -tell- the other fellow that his whole life is defined by
Ka Ka. Let him find out for himself.
Bob Kolker
how...@brazee.net
On 4-Jun-2005, Robert Kolker <now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
> > reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
> > unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
> > define themselves as.
>
> Cleaving unto a man-made State is idolatry. Jews are forbidden to
> worship idols.
Hindsight makes that statement quite amusing.
> > Nobody likes to be told that his identity isn't good
> > enough for others.
>
> That is true. Few like it, but what if it is true that his identiy is
> based on falsity and vanity? Sometimes the truth is bothersome. The
> cure is not to -tell- the other fellow that his whole life is defined by
> Ka Ka. Let him find out for himself.
Doesn't matter. You expect to find racism, hatred, and discrimination
based upon logic and truth?
Robert Kolker
>
> Doesn't matter. You expect to find racism, hatred, and discrimination
> based upon logic and truth?
I have learned to expect little if anything. Expectations lead to
disappointments.
Bob Kolker
Ebenezer T. Squint
news:8bioe.595$4u...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
<snip>
> himself a hispanic. (Hmmm, my spell checker accepts Hispanic, but not
> hispanic. That doesn't seem right to me. On the other hand, Jew seems
> OK
> vs jew. Why?).
Spellcheckers are usually written by programmers with the advice of people
who are good (but not always perfect) at spelling. So you should be ready to
correct your own spelling when you know the spellchecker to be wrong.
"Hispanic" is capitalized in my pocket OED, which I consider to be the final
authority on the matter.
Mark Edelstein
>
> Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
> reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
> unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
> define themselves as.
And Jews have also been hated because they have been too willing to
become French, German or Polish. There's a good quote on that from a
Polish Jew, but the name escapes me.
Robert Kolker
>
>
> And Jews have also been hated because they have been too willing to
> become French, German or Polish. There's a good quote on that from a
> Polish Jew, but the name escapes me.
Jean Paul-Satre observed in his book -Anti-Semite and Jews- that Jews
are hated either because they will not become part of the Nation are
they become so much part of the Nation they are more French, German,
Polish than the French, Germans and Poles. The conclusion that Sartre
draws is that hatred of Jews is primary and something to hang around
their necks will be found.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Bob Kolker
>
har...@missinglink.com
>Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
>reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
>unwilling to become Polish or French or German
Mendelssohn, Heine, Marx, Paul Ehrlich, Rosa Luxemburg, Einstein,
Arendt, Rathenau...
David Johnston
>
>On 3-Jun-2005, "Mark Edelstein" <2m...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
>> As such a Polish
>> Jew was far more likely to see himself as a "Jew in Poland" (and the
>> same was true in much of Eastern Europe) while a French Jew was far
>> more likely to see himself as a Frenchmen who happened to be a Jew (and
>> the same was true in Germany).
>
>Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
>reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
>unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
>define themselves as.
Oh hooey. The only reason why Jews don't regard themselves as members
of the nation where they grow up, is because that nation itself
rejects them. Where nations have accepted Jews, Jews have
self-identified with the nation in question, and sometimes been
terribly shocked when the nation changes it's mind and decides "No,
they aren't Germans after all."
Warchild
rgo...@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:
Ask the German Jews who served in the German army during World War One,
only to be murdered by the state during the Thirties and Forties.
Robert Kolker
> Oh hooey. The only reason why Jews don't regard themselves as members
> of the nation where they grow up, is because that nation itself
> rejects them. Where nations have accepted Jews, Jews have
> self-identified with the nation in question, and sometimes been
> terribly shocked when the nation changes it's mind and decides "No,
> they aren't Germans after all."
This is not the case in the U.S. and what do you know? Virtually every
American Jew save the Orthodox is quite assimilated. Except for
celebrating Christmas and Easter you can scarcely tell the difference.
Bob Kolker
>
Duke of URL
Me too!
David Johnston
<now...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Oh hooey. The only reason why Jews don't regard themselves as members
>> of the nation where they grow up, is because that nation itself
>> rejects them. Where nations have accepted Jews, Jews have
>> self-identified with the nation in question, and sometimes been
>> terribly shocked when the nation changes it's mind and decides "No,
>> they aren't Germans after all."
>
>This is not the case in the U.S. and what do you know?
What is not the case in the U.S?
Virtually every
>American Jew save the Orthodox is quite assimilated.
As I said.
Carl Dershem
news:11a3ulg...@corp.supernews.com:
> Paul F. Dietz wrote:
>
>> (almost mild spoiler)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>>
>>> IIRC Dr Lopez was using "plausible deniability". Officially
>>> he was Christian, I think, but everyone knew his true
>>> religion. Praise Cromwell that this became unnecessary in
>>> the 1650s.
>>
>> I'm looking forward to the sequel to the 1632/1633/etc. books
>> where (and you know they're going to do it) they break Cromwell
>> out of the ToL.
>>
> Me too!
I want to see Cromwell aiding in Spinoza's education. <evil grin>
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
phil hunt
>
>It's evidently clear that the order carries an anti-Soviet tone, but
>it's still very questionable whether it could be interpreted as an
>anti-Semitic one. And there's definitely a very, very long way to the
>conclusion that Bor-Komorowski would have reacted to a Jewish person by
>hissing "What are you prying out of him now, Jew?" in an overtly
>hostile and hateful tone.
If it was a Jewish person he knew personally, and distrusted, I
don't think it would be a surprising thing for him to say.
--
Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk
Dan Goodman
And there are Christians who don't celebrate Christmas. Less visible
than they used to be -- Massachusetts used to have a law forbidding the
celebration of That Papist Holiday.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
how...@brazee.net
On 4-Jun-2005, "Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
> > himself a hispanic. (Hmmm, my spell checker accepts Hispanic, but not
> > hispanic. That doesn't seem right to me. On the other hand, Jew
> > seems
> > OK
> > vs jew. Why?).
>
> Spellcheckers are usually written by programmers with the advice of people
>
> who are good (but not always perfect) at spelling. So you should be ready
> to
> correct your own spelling when you know the spellchecker to be wrong.
> "Hispanic" is capitalized in my pocket OED, which I consider to be the
> final authority on the matter.
But my question is what is the rule that is invoked to capitalize it?
Which races are capitalized and which aren't?
how...@brazee.net
On 4-Jun-2005, har...@missinglink.com wrote:
> >Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
> >reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
> >unwilling to become Polish or French or German
>
> Mendelssohn, Heine, Marx, Paul Ehrlich, Rosa Luxemburg, Einstein,
> Arendt, Rathenau...
Before the extreme racists got power, the average German was quite willing
to call them Germans. As such, they weren't part of their definition of
Jews who they hated for not choosing to become Germans.
I'm not racist - I *like* blacks who act like whites, or Mexicans who don't
act Mexican, or Jews who don't act Jewish...
Matt Giwer
> how...@brazee.net wrote:
>> Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
>> reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have been
>> unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the nationals
>> define themselves as.
> Cleaving unto a man-made State is idolatry. Jews are forbidden to
> worship idols.
Real kinky using bibletalk. But then how do you explain Israel?
--
Imagine a world without refrigerator magnets. Not that they
were not invented but they were not possible. If you can
you have become a scientist.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3428
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
flying saucers http://www.giwersworld.org/flyingsa.html a2
Matt Giwer
Then Jews need to start asking themselves what else it is they are doing wrong.
Over the years I have learned Jews will take offense both if people do not recognize them as Jews
without being told and if people do recognize them as Jews without being told. Perhaps it is the
paranoid culture that leads to problems?
One thing I have read rabbis bemoaning is the young defining themselves as non-christians instead
of Jews. If a Christian does it, do the opposite is not the way to acceptance. Also Christians
criticize other christians. Do not speak ill of they fellow Jew leads people believe all Jews
support the "non-christian" behavior of jewish youth.
Another obvious example is Pollard. Literally hundreds of American jewish organizations have
petitioned his release. There have been plenty of christian spies and traitors and American
christian organizations do NOT petition for their release. How do you think that looks? What does
one conclude from it?
--
If Hitler was no worse than Milosevic or Hussein
what is all the fuss about?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3436
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
Blame Israel http://www.ussliberty.org a10
Matt Giwer
Lets discuss a concrete example. In 1933 the WJO declared economic warfare on Germany because
Hitler was able to form a government. In the middle of the depression jewish owned shipping lines
refused to carry German products. In America stores that retailed german products were boycotted. No
_german_ jewish organization protested or in any manner defended Germany. What does a german
conclude about jewish Germans from their silence? That they are german Jews not jewish Germans. Note
in 1933 Hitler had done nothing to Jews per se.
America has many hyphenated Americans. German-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Afro-Americans but we
have not Jewish-Americans. We have only american Jews.
Why?
--
Of course no Koran was flushed down the toilet.
It was a chemical toilet.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3450
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
http://www.giwersworld.org
Matt Giwer
You mean the Rosa Luxemburg who was executed for her part in leading the 1920 attempted revolution
in Germany?
--
The American Civil War is like all wars, justified in
hindsight in this case by the unintended consequence
of the abolition of slavery.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3439
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
environmentalism http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a9
Matt Giwer
Without question the US has accepted Jews regardless of what is said about any other nation.
Anyone claiming they have been persecuted needs review the history of the Latter Day Saints and the
Catholics in America before talking about persecution.
Yet no matter how great Israel's atrocities and recognized as such by every nation on earth but the
US where is the criticism of that foreign country by american Jews? Naturai Karta and who else? Can
anyone here imagine an immigrant from Chile defending the methods of Pinochet? Now explain
Derschowitz defending Israel's "right" to torture and murder. While explaining it, list the Jews who
have publically condemned Dershowitz. Norman Finkelstein and who else? www.normanfinkelstein.com
--
Every American killed in Iraq died as a foreign invader.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3442
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1
William December Starr
"Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> said:
> Spellcheckers are usually written by programmers with the advice
> of people who are good (but not always perfect) at spelling. So
> you should be ready to correct your own spelling when you know the
> spellchecker to be wrong. "Hispanic" is capitalized in my pocket
> OED, which I consider to be the final authority on the matter.
"Pocket OED?" Does it come with its own electron microscope? :-)
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Gene Wirchenko
Any reference can have an error. When the name of the reference
has an error, well, <delicate sniff>. Spellcheckers should be for
checking spells. For checking spelling, use a spelling checker.
I blame the old 8.3 filename format. "SPELLCHK" is a likely
abbrev for a name, and that suggests "spell check".
ObWI: the 8.3 filename format did not get into wide use with
micros?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Ebenezer T. Squint
news:3Wroe.823$4u6...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
<snip>
> But my question is what is the rule that is invoked to capitalize it?
> Which races are capitalized and which aren't?
AFAIK, all adjectives of a specific nationality, race or geography are
capitalized. I can't think of a counterexample.
Ebenezer T. Squint
news:d7ueqj$h3f$1...@panix2.panix.com...
<snip>
> "Pocket OED?" Does it come with its own electron microscope? :-)
Oxford English Dictionary. (I suspect you knew it, but I'll post this for
the benefit of anyone who didn't.)
Ebenezer T. Squint
news:1cp5a1dm9euvurb04...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> Any reference can have an error. When the name of the reference
> has an error, well, <delicate sniff>. Spellcheckers should be for
> checking spells. For checking spelling, use a spelling checker.
I see your point, but who besides Harry Potter might have such a device?
I think it's rather similar to the process that caused "refrigerator" to be
contracted to "fridge" and "cellular phone" to be contracted to "cellphone."
Some people think that's lamentable, but I'm all in favour of the continuing
evolution of our language. It's natural to drop a syllable or two where they
do not serve to prevent ambiguities in daily speech.
Robert Kolker
>
> I see your point, but who besides Harry Potter might have such a device?
>
> I think it's rather similar to the process that caused "refrigerator" to be
> contracted to "fridge"
Fridge came from Frigidair, a brand name that was diluted by common usage.
Bob Kolker
Doug Palmer
My "compact" OED requires careful lifting techniques. It also comes with a
magnifying glass so that I can read the teeny tiny type. I can only
imagine that the pocket version would cause anyone who pocketed it to walk
with a pronounced limp.
Or that's it's an abridged version, which is more boring. But it did give
me a vision of an iPod-like OED, carried by legions of pedants. Actually,
since the OED is online, all you need is an Internet connected PDA to get
the same effect, but I rather like the idea of carrying such a weight of
words. And, you never know, you may be offline when you need to access
19th C uses of "kajeput".
--
Doug Palmer http://www.charvolant.org/~doug do...@charvolant.org
Ebenezer T. Squint
news:pan.2005.06.05....@charvolant.REMOVE.org...
<snip>
> My "compact" OED requires careful lifting techniques. It also comes with a
> magnifying glass so that I can read the teeny tiny type. I can only
> imagine that the pocket version would cause anyone who pocketed it to walk
> with a pronounced limp.
You're right, my little paperback is very abridged. I've seen what you speak
of in a library and in the Bartleby catalogue. Cheaper than the full-size
version to be sure, but still pricey. The Oxford University Press now
publishes the OED on a CD-ROM, but I haven't seen fit to get one, as I doubt
it's as interesting as the Encyclopedia Britannica CD-ROM.
Johan Larson
"Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:E9Ioe.1577746$Xk.900266@pd7tw3no...
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@abhost.us> wrote in message
> news:1cp5a1dm9euvurb04...@4ax.com...
> <snip>
>> Any reference can have an error. When the name of the reference
>> has an error, well, <delicate sniff>. Spellcheckers should be for
>> checking spells. For checking spelling, use a spelling checker.
> <snip>
I'm disappointed I haven't seen Rowling make this observation in any of her
books. It's just the kind of smart-alecky gotcha that would be perfect for
Hermione.
>
> I see your point, but who besides Harry Potter might have such a device?
Johan Larson
how...@brazee.net
On 5-Jun-2005, "Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
> > But my question is what is the rule that is invoked to capitalize it?
> > Which races are capitalized and which aren't?
>
> AFAIK, all adjectives of a specific nationality, race or geography are
> capitalized. I can't think of a counterexample.
How about white & black?
how...@brazee.net
On 5-Jun-2005, Doug Palmer <do...@charvolant.REMOVE.org> wrote:
> >> "Pocket OED?" Does it come with its own electron microscope? :-)
> >
> > Oxford English Dictionary. (I suspect you knew it, but I'll post this
> > for
> > the benefit of anyone who didn't.)
>
> My "compact" OED requires careful lifting techniques. It also comes with a
> magnifying glass so that I can read the teeny tiny type.
Even with the magnifying glass, I have a lot of trouble with mine. Each
volume weighs more than any other volumes I have.
how...@brazee.net
On 5-Jun-2005, "Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
> I think it's rather similar to the process that caused "refrigerator" to
> be
> contracted to "fridge" and "cellular phone" to be contracted to
> "cellphone."
> Some people think that's lamentable, but I'm all in favour of the
> continuing
> evolution of our language. It's natural to drop a syllable or two where
> they
> do not serve to prevent ambiguities in daily speech.
I just found out a month ago or so that the term "remote control" has been
dropped to "remote", which seems like a weird new name.
Gene Wirchenko
I do not consider us a separate race, but some do: "white".
how...@brazee.net
On 5-Jun-2005, Gene Wirchenko <ge...@abhost.us> wrote:
> >AFAIK, all adjectives of a specific nationality, race or geography are
> >capitalized. I can't think of a counterexample.
>
> I do not consider us a separate race, but some do: "white".
"race" is pretty subjective anyway. It means what people want it to mean.
William December Starr
"Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> said:
>> "Pocket OED?" Does it come with its own electron microscope?
>> :-)
>
> Oxford English Dictionary. (I suspect you knew it, but I'll post
> this for the benefit of anyone who didn't.)
I was commenting on the supposed size of the typeface in a "pocket"
version of said publication.
W. Citoan
> Gene Wirchenko <ge...@abhost.us> wrote in message
> news:1cp5a1dm9euvurb04...@4ax.com... <snip>
> > Any reference can have an error. When the name of the reference
> > has an error, well, <delicate sniff>. Spellcheckers should be
> > for checking spells. For checking spelling, use a spelling
> > checker.
> <snip>
>
> I see your point, but who besides Harry Potter might have such a
> device?
ObSF: Rick Cook's _The Wiz Biz_
- W. Citoan
--
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, perhaps you
have misunderstood the situation.
-- Graffiti
Robert Kolker
>
> "race" is pretty subjective anyway. It means what people want it to mean.
Race is balderdash. All humans are interfertile (modulo a male female
pair). The human race is one species.
Bob Kolker
szo...@europe.com
based solely on old stereotypes (Bor-Komorowski won the fricking case
when someone accused AK of anti-semitism, for God's sake!) is wrong! He
just made it conform for today's fashion of accusing Poles of
enthusiastic cooperation and anti-semitism and ignored the truth.
szo...@europe.com
helped the Nazis in comparison say French, Dutch and others did?
And why you are accusing all Poles basing on deed on few individuals,
why ignoring many other individuals which were helping Jews? It's like
saying that Jews were enthusiastically helping soviets because some of
them enlisted to NKVD and helped to ship Poles to Siberia. Equally
wrong.
szo...@europe.com
AK anti-semitic.
AK as a group was not anti-semitic and being Jew was no obstacle of
being member of AK (though an obstacle to be member of military group,
because of appearance of some guys). SOME groups of AK were, of course
- famous example of fate of ZOB group, and not-so famous fate of AK
group commander who was then ordered to death by AK HQ for his deeds.
szo...@europe.com
szo...@europe.com
exist for almost 100 years. To become Polish meant to fight with
government, in short. Many Jews prefered to become loyal Russian,
German etc citizens.
Matt Giwer
> "Ebenezer T. Squint" <sp...@spam.com> wrote:
>
>
>><how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
>>news:8bioe.595$4u...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>><snip>
>>
>>>himself a hispanic. (Hmmm, my spell checker accepts Hispanic, but not
>>>hispanic. That doesn't seem right to me. On the other hand, Jew seems
>>>OK
>>>vs jew. Why?).
>>
>>Spellcheckers are usually written by programmers with the advice of people
>>who are good (but not always perfect) at spelling. So you should be ready to
>>correct your own spelling when you know the spellchecker to be wrong.
>>"Hispanic" is capitalized in my pocket OED, which I consider to be the final
>>authority on the matter.
>
>
> Any reference can have an error. When the name of the reference
> has an error, well, <delicate sniff>. Spellcheckers should be for
> checking spells. For checking spelling, use a spelling checker.
>
> I blame the old 8.3 filename format. "SPELLCHK" is a likely
> abbrev for a name, and that suggests "spell check".
>
> ObWI: the 8.3 filename format did not get into wide use with
> micros?
We ill love in a spellchecker whorl.
--
Israel announced it would withdraw from Gaza. We are nearer the
second anniversary than the first and still nothing has happened.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3443
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
book review http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/willing-executioners.phtml a7
Robert Kolker
Duke of URL
> Robert Kolker wrote:
>> how...@brazee.net wrote:
>
>>> Such attitudes will affect how the other nationals perceive Jews. One
>>> reason Jews have been hated over the years is because Jews have
>>> been unwilling to become Polish or French or German or whatever the
>>> nationals define themselves as.
>
>> worship idols.
>
> Real kinky using bibletalk. But then how do you explain Israel?
Simple. We do not see Eretz Israel as "man-made", but rather G-d-given.
And we do not worship idols.
--
Moses.D...@gmail.com
Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler,
Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid