Game of Thrones and taking a knee?

[mcdow...@sky.com]

There's been an attempt to trace the protest gesture of "Taking a Knee" to "Game of Thrones". Is anybody familiar enough with the TV version or the books to comment on this? Despite growing up within walking distance of (the location used to represent) Winterfell, I found that one book and about 20 minutes of a cheap DVD was more than enough for me.

(I wondered if the link might have been via the ceremony of making feudal homage).

[Peter Trei]

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 2:28:16 PM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> There's been an attempt to trace the protest gesture of "Taking a Knee" to "Game of Thrones". Is anybody familiar enough with the TV version or the books to comment on this? Despite growing up within walking distance of (the location used to represent) Winterfell, I found that one book and about 20 minutes of a cheap DVD was more than enough for me.
>
> (I wondered if the link might have been via the ceremony of making feudal homage).

I think this is a false equivalence. I did hear from some British politician that he only knelt to the Queen and his wife (when they proposed). However taking the knee in the case of the footballers,etc, has a different intent. Americans normally stand for the national anthem. Somebody might sit and be thought just thoughtless. Going down on one knee indicates that you are aware that the national anthem is being played, but you deliberately choose not to stand in respect because of whatever reason you have to feel that that respect is misplaced. I don't think it has anything to do with the Game of Thrones.

Pt

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 18 Jun 2020 at 19:28:12 BST, "mcdow...@sky.com" <mcdow...@sky.com>
wrote:

> There's been an attempt to trace the protest gesture of "Taking a Knee" to "Game of Thrones".

Dominic Raab is the source of this, he is a dramatically out of touch with the
modern world which is why we have him as out Foreign Secretary, one of the
highest ranking parliamentarians in the UK. He's a fuckwit, one of many in the
current 'leadership' team. You can disregard his nonsense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"History repeats itself. Has to. No one listens." -- Steve Turner

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <f378732b-98ab-45c8...@googlegroups.com>,

Which the custom predates by some years, I believe.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

[Robert Carnegie]

Well...
<https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/taking-a-knee-national-anthem-nfl-trump-why-meaning-origins-racism-us-colin-kaepernick-a8521741.html>

draws a wobbly line through points of MLK photographed
praying in Selma, Alabama, in 1965, introduction of
patriotic shows involving NFL football players around
2009 sponsored by the Department of Defense,
and Colin Kaepernick first sitting it out in 2016.
"On 1 September, he transitioned to taking a knee
in protest instead, following advice from Retired
Army Green Beret Nate Boyer, who suggested kneeling
during the ceremony would be more respectful
towards veterans." Really? Anyway, not his own idea?

Also on the time line is the "Black Power" protest
by American athletes at the 1968 Olympic Games.
Raise your hand, you're a target: so do you raise
your hand...

_Game of Thrones_ launched in 2011. However, the
point about the British politician is that he doesn't
know the meaning of the act but was pleased to tell you
what it is anyway. He went on to tweet "To be clear:
I have full respect for the Black Lives Matter movement",
although he clearly doesn't.

[J. Clarke]

The thing that bothers me about that is that instead of standing in
respect they go for a more subservient gesture showing even greater
respect. I never really got the point.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <76oneflbq7vhqqn9q...@4ax.com>,

Well ... it's a *different* gesture from what everyone else is
doing. It may be no more than that, "I'm not going to do what
everyone else is doing, just because you tell me to."

[Kevrob]

Add this:

In US gridiron foobaw culture, the instruction from the coach to
"take a knee" tells the players, suited up in their hot and heavy
equipment, to get off their feet, squat down and "listen up" to
the coach. I never joined a "tackle football" squad, and have
never been through a high school practice in "full pads." Those
who have might tell us if genuflecting and staying down for a few
minutes is more comfortable than standing, if not at attention.

Alternate form of protest: pull out a copy of the Constitution,
or at least the Bill of Rights, with the post-Civil War Amendments,
and focus on that, not the flag.

--
Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 22:26:22 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

Might be an "in-gesture". I just see "kneel, varlet".

>
>Alternate form of protest: pull out a copy of the Constitution,
>or at least the Bill of Rights, with the post-Civil War Amendments,
>and focus on that, not the flag.

Of course that might not be terribly convenient to carry when suited
up for pro football.

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2020-06-18, mcdow...@sky.com <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:

> There's been an attempt to trace the protest gesture of "Taking a Knee" to "Game of Thrones". Is anybody familiar enough with the TV version or the books to comment on this?

I haven't read the books, but I've seen the whole TV show and I am
puzzled by this. There is a lot of talk about "bending the knee",
usually in a metaphorical sense of one feudal lord submitting to
another one. I think occasionally we also see the ritual gesture.

> (I wondered if the link might have been via the ceremony of making feudal homage).

That's the way it is used in GoT, but I don't see the connection
with the protest gesture--or if there is a connection, why by way
of GoT in particular rather than, say, some old Errol Flynn movies.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[mcdow...@sky.com]

Thanks for that. I thought any purported connection was likely to be to the TV shows and - for want of advice on that aspect - was about to resign myself to unearthing my charity shop DVD series one set (minus the first DVD) and plodding through it.

[Don]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:

<snip>

> In US gridiron foobaw culture, the instruction from the coach to
> "take a knee" tells the players, suited up in their hot and heavy
> equipment, to get off their feet, squat down and "listen up" to
> the coach. I never joined a "tackle football" squad, and have
> never been through a high school practice in "full pads." Those
> who have might tell us if genuflecting and staying down for a few
> minutes is more comfortable than standing, if not at attention.

An acquaintance allowed me put on his military body armor once. It's
unbelievably heavy; heavy enough to make it overly difficult to stand
from a sitting position. "Taking a knee" to relax makes it easier stand
back up afterward.

U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Hall and fellow soldiers take a knee
during a break while patrolling through a village near
Bagram Airfield, Afghanistan, March 24, 2015.

https://www.defense.gov/observe/photo-gallery/igphoto/2001138890/

Given the sheer weight of the things they carry, it's understandable why
so many foot soldiers are body builders. Soldiers also "take a knee" for
a different reason after a comrade falls:

https://media.defense.gov/2019/Mar/18/2002102424/-1/-1/0/190316-A-ZO892-856.JPG

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[Kevrob]

Kap is (or was) a quarterback, and for some time now the practice
of having a pre-printed "cheat sheet" of various plays to call taped
to one's forearm has been allowed in the NFL. 15 "plays" from the
Constitution would fit right in. :)

--
Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

The subtext in the show always struck me as "We will gladly let you
into the royal pants but only if you convince Us that We are more
important to you than your kingdom". I don't think that's the
message that Kap was trying to send. Or maybe it was--it would be
funny if 40 years from now he revealed in a memoir that he did it to
get into some girl's pants.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <20200...@crcomp.net>, g...@crcomp.net says...

>
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > In US gridiron foobaw culture, the instruction from the coach to
> > "take a knee" tells the players, suited up in their hot and heavy
> > equipment, to get off their feet, squat down and "listen up" to
> > the coach. I never joined a "tackle football" squad, and have
> > never been through a high school practice in "full pads." Those
> > who have might tell us if genuflecting and staying down for a few
> > minutes is more comfortable than standing, if not at attention.
>
> An acquaintance allowed me put on his military body armor once. It's
> unbelievably heavy; heavy enough to make it overly difficult to stand
> from a sitting position. "Taking a knee" to relax makes it easier stand
> back up afterward.

The first time I got up from the knee it was already hard enough, and
that was with just a rifle and a harness. When I got to take the gear
off at the end of the day I felt like I'd float into the sky.

But one got used to it soon enough.

--
Juho Julkunen

[mcdow...@sky.com]

Now I'm going off topic myself, but do you have any comment on physical fitness regimes for soldiers? My impression is that official advice is much more concerned about running (and of course marching) and exercise aimed at bodybuilding is largely an initiative of individual soldiers (exception: apparently fighter pilots are encouraged towards weights rather than running, because this is better for resistance to blackout under high g maneuvers).

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <ilppefpp0fn6sf36s...@4ax.com>,

Actually, the Pocket Constitution (official title, _The U.S.
Constitution And Fascinating Facts About It_) measures 3.5 x 6
inches, and about as thick as a checkbook.

You can get it from Amazon,

https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Constitution-Fascinating-Facts-About/dp/1891743155/ref=sr_1_16?dchild=1&keywords=Pocket+constitution&qid=1592670340&s=books&sr=1-16

although Hal bought his and my copies at the Naval History Museum
in Vallejo.

I am not familiar with the details of a football uniform, but I
bet there's somewhere you could tuck it.

[BCFD36]

On 6/18/20 22:26, Kevrob wrote:
[stuff deleted]

"
>
> Add this:
>
> In US gridiron foobaw culture, the instruction from the coach to
> "take a knee" tells the players, suited up in their hot and heavy
> equipment, to get off their feet, squat down and "listen up" to
> the coach. I never joined a "tackle football" squad, and have
> never been through a high school practice in "full pads." Those
> who have might tell us if genuflecting and staying down for a few
> minutes is more comfortable than standing, if not at attention.
>
> Alternate form of protest: pull out a copy of the Constitution,
> or at least the Bill of Rights, with the post-Civil War Amendments,
> and focus on that, not the flag.
>

Kevrob did get it right. I played tackle football from 4th through 12th
grades so I know a bit about the culture.

Full pads, especially in the summer, are hot and a bit heavy. Probably
not as heavy as body armor (armour for you Brits, Canucks, Aussies, and
Kiwis) and not nearly as heavy as fire turnouts, but it adds up over
time. Add to that the football cleats that are worn and not particularly
easy on the feet (I played on grass so I can't comment on the shoes for
artificial turn) and it is nice to get off of them. Also, many of the
players are MUCH taller than the coaches so it is easier to see everyone
if they are shorter than you, even temporarily.

The pants with knee and thigh pads, the shoulder pads, helmet, and
cleats probably don't weigh any more than 15 lbs. Still, taking a knee
after being out on the practice field is nice.

Lastly, taking a knee when a player is hurt on the field is almost
universal these days in high school. It is a sign of respect, and
probably a way to keep tempers under control.

Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <rcll2n$i7v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, bcf...@cruzio.com says...

>

> Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
> nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.

It is pretty unusual here.

--
Juho Julkunen
(Association) football, ice hockey and pesäpallo were more the mark.

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 23:58:06 +0300, Juho Julkunen
<giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <rcll2n$i7v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, bcf...@cruzio.com says...
>>
>
>> Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
>> nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.
>
>It is pretty unusual here.

In the US while most of us have played some form of it at some point,
have not participated in in formally with uniforms and coaches and the
like. And geeks and nerds especially not, we tended to be victims of
the people who did play it.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <rcll2n$i7v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, BCFD36 <bcf...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
>nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.

Well, back in my day, they did not let GIRLS play football.

Do they now? Not that I'd qualify.

[Kevrob]

I'm a pro football fan. My high school was _very_ good for
its size. At one point our team held a state record for consecutive
games without a defeat. There was 1 tie in the string, but it was
at least 3 8-game undefeated seasons. One of my older brothers
was on the team, but he didn't start. He was a reserve linebacker and
the placekicker. He wound up in the coaching game, like my Dad. My
late father coached* everything _but_ US gridiron football, as his
school district never put that in the budget until after he retired.

I must have absorbed enough about foobaw locker room and
sideline behavior from my brother's tales, my Dad's professional
knowledge and the media. Just a season or two of "Friday Night
Lights..."


* As I have explained before, I am the


"Spawn of the Ballhog"

explained here: <8ad17d50-d340-4a4d...@googlegroups.com>

or

http://tinyurl.com/BallhogVictorious

http://preview.tinyurl.com/BallhogVictorious

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/spawn$20ballhog/rec.arts.books.tolkien/Wc9SC8WfNZQ/rPy573dzCAAJ

Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 02:07:32 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <rcll2n$i7v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, BCFD36 <bcf...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>
>>Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
>>nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.
>
>Well, back in my day, they did not let GIRLS play football.
>
>Do they now? Not that I'd qualify.

In pick up games sure.

More formally, Wiki lists 9 current and 14 defunct organizations in
the US alone supporting women's football in some manner.

Some women do play on men's teams. It's rare but it's possible at the
high school level, and for some very restricted positions above that
level.

And there are several female coaches at the pro level.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <6b332ec5-a0c7-4c4c...@googlegroups.com>,
mcdow...@sky.com says...

>
> On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 11:30:17 PM UTC+1, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> > In article <20200...@crcomp.net>, g...@crcomp.net says...
> > >
> > > Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >

> > > An acquaintance allowed me put on his military body armor once. It's
> > > unbelievably heavy; heavy enough to make it overly difficult to stand
> > > from a sitting position. "Taking a knee" to relax makes it easier stand
> > > back up afterward.
> >
> > The first time I got up from the knee it was already hard enough, and
> > that was with just a rifle and a harness. When I got to take the gear
> > off at the end of the day I felt like I'd float into the sky.
> >
> > But one got used to it soon enough.
> >

>

> Now I'm going off topic myself, but do you have any comment on
physical fitness regimes for soldiers?

I was a conscript in a peace time army, I have very little of worth to
say on the subject. Our physical training focused on endurance. Some of
the instructional material suggested strong soldiers have an advantage
on the battlefield, because you need to be able to move quickly with
quite a lot of gear, but I don't know if that's a widely accepted view.

All the young (professional) officers in this country seem to list their
hobbies as "bodybuilding and war history."

--
Juho Julkunen

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 4:06:13 AM UTC+10, Don wrote:
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > In US gridiron foobaw culture, the instruction from the coach to
> > "take a knee" tells the players, suited up in their hot and heavy
> > equipment, to get off their feet, squat down and "listen up" to
> > the coach. I never joined a "tackle football" squad, and have
> > never been through a high school practice in "full pads." Those
> > who have might tell us if genuflecting and staying down for a few
> > minutes is more comfortable than standing, if not at attention.
>
> An acquaintance allowed me put on his military body armor once. It's
> unbelievably heavy; heavy enough to make it overly difficult to stand
> from a sitting position. "Taking a knee" to relax makes it easier stand
> back up afterward.
>
> U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Hall and fellow soldiers take a knee
> during a break while patrolling through a village near
> Bagram Airfield, Afghanistan, March 24, 2015.
>
> https://www.defense.gov/observe/photo-gallery/igphoto/2001138890/
>
> Given the sheer weight of the things they carry, it's understandable why
> so many foot soldiers are body builders.

A lot of soldiers do weights, I don't think many are body builders
Body building is focusing on shape and definition rather than actually focusing on strength

https://fitnessgenes.com/blog/bodybuilding-vs-powerlifting-vs-olympic-lifting/#:~:text=Bodybuilding%20focuses%20on%20aesthetics%20rather,fat%20loss%2C%20and%20contest%20preparation.

[J. Clarke]

We got stretches, running, pushups, situps, chin ups, swimming, and a
number of impromptu and unofficial exercises. But that was Navy.
Note-don't discount pushups when in addition to the official ones you
do several hundred on a bet and all of them "power pushups" which in
that specific context means push up, clap your hands, and go back
down.

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 07:44:29 +0300, Juho Julkunen
<giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Depends on the timing and the tradition. Tradition, as I am sure you
are aware, is /very/ important in the military.

Back when the infantry was expected to march all day with enormous
packs, I would think endurance would have been very important.

But sitting in a cubical controlling a drone -- not so much.

>All the young (professional) officers in this country seem to list their
>hobbies as "bodybuilding and war history."

Sounds like two excellent hobbies for young professional officers.

After all, they gotta be able to keep up with the troops.

And war history (I am taking it here that this is more than just the
history of, say, WWII but is military history in general, going all
the way back to the ancients) is always helpful in formulating plans
and avoiding traps. at least once they attain higher rank.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

[Robert Carnegie]

I was going to ask if it counts as fitness.

As you say, it's more a beauty treatment.

[BCFD36]

On 6/20/20 19:07, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <rcll2n$i7v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, BCFD36 <bcf...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>
>> Am I the only one here that played American football? I know we are
>> nerds and geeks at heart, but I didn't think I was that unusual.
>
> Well, back in my day, they did not let GIRLS play football.

There were a very few, even in your day. See the following from Wikipedia:

1939–40 – Luverne "Toad" Wise: Kicker for the Atmore (now Escambia
County) Alabama High School Blue Devils in 1939 and 1940, first female
to score in an American football game.[7]

1972 – Theresa Dion: First female to play on a boys high school varsity
team in the U.S. when she played for Immaculate High School in Key West,
in 1972, as a placekicker.[8]

>
> Do they now? Not that I'd qualify.
>

For the most part, girls still do not play high school or college
football. There are a very few, and they are mostly kickers. In the
youth leagues, there are quite a few more because of the physical
equality. But for most part, football (and rugby and hurling and all the
contact sports) uses the biggest and/or strongest and/or fastest people
that can be found. These are almost invariably male. You also have to
like smashing into people and not mind too much getting smashed into.
Girls don't usually qualify as the biggest/fastest/strongest/meanest.

I think that in adult sports in general women cannot compete with men
for the most part, especially at the highest levels. Even Serena
Williams admits that this is so, and she is the best of the best. It has
been estimated that Serena might beat #200 in the Men's division. And
this is a non-contact sport.

BTW, I love women's sports. Two of my daughters had scholarships (water
polo and crew) to help pay the college bills. Women's water polo is a
completely different game than Men's. And it is still brutal.

[Chris Buckley]

My sport is table tennis. Most training and tournaments are
completely open to both sexes at the lower and middle ranges. When
you start talking about national level tournaments, they are divided
into men/women's since the women cannot compete evenly with the power
game (tremendous spin) of the men.

I watched Crystal Wang, a member of the women's National Team, develop
at our club over the years (her family moved out west a few years ago).
Even now, there are 4-5 coaches at our club who are a bit better than her.
(Her practice and playing against top men actually hurt her for a while
when she started to play internationally. A lot of the top women play
a quick game rather than the power game she plays).

Chris

[Gary R. Schmidt]

We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.

And then Women's Cricket has been doing well internationally, quite few
games have been better that the men's games in the same seasons. :-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,

Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
>by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
>PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.

I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
Boundary. What did you have in mind?

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 3:45:02 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
> >>
> >We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
> >by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
> >PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.
>
> I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
> including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
> Boundary. What did you have in mind?
>

Probably Powers That Be

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 23/06/2020 15:26, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>
>> We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
>> by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
>> PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.
>
> I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
> including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
> Boundary. What did you have in mind?
>

"Powers That Be." The Old Guard is very much against this sort of
thing, and tries very hard to ensure that the TV coverage is limited,
and so on, whilst publicly stating their support for it. Sigh.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 6:42:25 AM UTC+10, BCFD36 wrote:

> I think that in adult sports in general women cannot compete with men
> for the most part, especially at the highest levels.

Generally true
The only absolutely top level sport where women were right up the top in mixed competition I know of was ultra-marathon swimming
Susie Maroney had various records

I'm not sure if there's any reason that women couldn't do as well for shooting

[Robert Carnegie]

I wasn't far off with Patriarchal Troglodyte Board", then.
(Inside my head, until now.)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <560f43af-1d0d-421b...@googlegroups.com>,

ISTR that back in the Edwardian era archery was encouraged as a
sport for women. Because it would develop the pectoral muscles.

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:15:36 +1000, "Gary R. Schmidt"

<grsc...@acm.org> wrote:

>On 23/06/2020 15:26, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
>> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>> We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
>>> by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
>>> PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.
>>
>> I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
>> including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
>> Boundary. What did you have in mind?
>>
>"Powers That Be." The Old Guard is very much against this sort of
>thing, and tries very hard to ensure that the TV coverage is limited,
>and so on, whilst publicly stating their support for it. Sigh.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Embedded Sexism!

[mcdow...@sky.com]

I distrust such snap judgements because I don't understand the current attraction of sport. I specifically asked a woman I know to watch UK Premier league soccer games if she watched women's soccer. She said she wasn't interested, but didn't elaborate. Male sports fans can't entirely be looking for players just like them, because professional sportsmen are millionaires with very different lifestyles, very often a different ethnicity, and many of them are currently making clear that they have different politics. UK professional soccer players often speak English with pronounced foreign accents. Following success accounts for much of the current evidence, including the relative popularity of Premier League soccer e.g. in N.Ireland where the local games aren't even in the same system. International women's soccer teams have been known to stage their training matches against city-level male youth teams, expecting to lose, so if absolute competitive ability is a major factor, they have some distance to go.

[Don]

Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
> On 23/06/2020 15:26, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
>> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>> We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
>>> by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
>>> PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.
>>
>> I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
>> including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
>> Boundary. What did you have in mind?
>>
> "Powers That Be." The Old Guard is very much against this sort of
> thing, and tries very hard to ensure that the TV coverage is limited,
> and so on, whilst publicly stating their support for it. Sigh.

A fib of fulsome filled full of it politicians, in other words.

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Ooh, I *like* that, I'm nicking it!

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 24/06/2020 04:50, Don wrote:
> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>> On 23/06/2020 15:26, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <jse8sg-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
>>> Gary R. Schmidt <grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> We've had AFLW for the last few years, professional Aussie Rules played
>>>> by women, and it's doing quite well, despite the various attempts by the
>>>> PTB and the trolls to prevent and/or destroy it.
>>>
>>> I googled PTB and found a whole pageful of things it might mean,
>>> including pulmonary tuberculosis and the Permitan/Triassic
>>> Boundary. What did you have in mind?
>>>
>> "Powers That Be." The Old Guard is very much against this sort of
>> thing, and tries very hard to ensure that the TV coverage is limited,
>> and so on, whilst publicly stating their support for it. Sigh.
>
> A fib of fulsome filled full of it politicians, in other words.
>

Well, they're not politicians, they're ex-sportsmen who became (barely
competent) administrators of the sport they used to play who find
themselves threatened by change.

But yes, they are full of it.

I nearly caused one to have a heart attack by explaining that the best
way to manage the "transgender thing" was to adapt the Parallel Olympics
rating method, "You started hormones at age X so you have 0.7 of this,
your femur is Ycm long so you are 0.6 that," and so on. Fun!

[Paul S Person]

When I was in the Army, at one point I was stationed on a very remote
post, but one far from combat, so it was a three-year-tour and
dependents were authorized (well, for officers and NCOs, anyway).

So, we had a Girl's Volleyball tournament, composed of the younger
(20-something, give or take) wives. They were /very/ popular -- with
the unmarried/unaccompanied male troops.

Perhaps you were asking the wrong person.

[mcdow...@sky.com]

This is the obvious way for female sports to attract spectators - see also what is now called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_Cup_(LFL) - but it is not equivalent (even, or perhaps especially, politically) to standard sports. I do wonder where the push for diversity will end up going. If there are ways to favour women in STEM which don't amount to discrimination against men, are there ways to favour particularly attractive women in STEM which don't amount to the CEO spending the company's money on eye candy?

[Robert Carnegie]

I just read a BBC news article (if this works):
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53158292>

"The study analysed more than 1,000 scientific names
featured in seven modern biology textbooks used to
teach undergraduates entering science and medicine
in the US.

"They ranged from historical figures such as
Charles Darwin and Gregor Mendel to contemporary
scientists such as Jane Goodall.

"Overall, 13% of the scientists featured were women,
while 6.7% were from Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic
backgrounds."

None were black /and/ female. Now it's not obvious
that this is where there's a problem: surely you only
buy your textbooks /after/ you choose the course.
And you can't really invent a female Charles Darwin.
There is <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dino_Dana>
however. You can /decorate/ a textbook for a
Younger than undergraduate audience with artwork
of young scientists, who don't have to be real ones.
Some of them can be dinosaurs if you want - or even
girls. Dinosaurs of color do not count as multiracial
representation though - but they're fun...
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Vastra,_Jenny_Flint,_and_Strax>
(Not officially scientists either but never mind)

[J. Clarke]

The problem with "women in STEM" is that the education system somehow
manages to induce women to not have an interest in technical careers.
This is fairly recent--I remember a time when the number of women in
STEM seemed to be increasing rapidly but then that stopped. And I
don't think it is because companies were not hiring them or because
they were not doing good jobs.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:nhk7ffli73sfule5u...@4ax.com:

Millions of dollars have been spent studying that. Mostly, it's
blamed on those mean, nasty, misogynistic old guard in the
profession being mean and nasty to the sweet, innocent young girls,
and that's likely a part of it.

But it's far more complicated than that. It appears to start at
birth, with parents giving boy toys to boys and girl toys to girls,
and said toys helpign to develop different parts of the extremely
flexible infant and toddler brains. So boys end up better at math
and girls end up better what whatever it is girls are better at
(the news stories don't cover that because it doesn't fit that
narrative, but I'm certain there are subjects that girls, on
average, do better at than boys).

We are programmed from birth by everything we see and do for gender
roles.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <nhk7ffli73sfule5u...@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
@gmail.com says...

>
> The problem with "women in STEM" is that the education system somehow
> manages to induce women to not have an interest in technical careers.
> This is fairly recent--I remember a time when the number of women in
> STEM seemed to be increasing rapidly but then that stopped. And I
> don't think it is because companies were not hiring them or because
> they were not doing good jobs.

I'm not sure it's the education system so much as the fellow students
(and faculty) of the not-woman kind.

Our demographic kinda sucks.

--
Juho Julkunen

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 11:39:29 -0700 (PDT), mcdow...@sky.com wrote:

>I distrust such snap judgements because I don't understand the current attraction of sport. I specifically asked a woman I know to watch UK Premier league soccer games if she watched women's soccer. She said she wasn't interested, but didn't elaborate.

I've known women who watched baseball (the game with the most
normal-looking players of the major sports and relatively little gear
obscuring their features) entirely for the eye candy. One was a big
fan of the Boston Red Sox so long as Jason Varitek was playing; when
he retired she lost interest.



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

[Paul S Person]

Sounds like the standard excuses to me. Not that there isn't /some/
truth to them, but where is the proof? Specifically, the proof
involving brain part development? Let's see the CAT (or whatever)
scans!

>We are programmed from birth by everything we see and do for gender
>roles.

Quite possibly, but then there /was/ a column by Dave Barry ...

in which he reported giving his young (2 or 3 years) daughter a
"really studly toy dump truck". And she played with it! She used it as
a chariot for her favorite doll.

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 12:19:28 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:


> Quite possibly, but then there /was/ a column by Dave Barry ...
>
> in which he reported giving his young (2 or 3 years) daughter a
> "really studly toy dump truck". And she played with it! She used it as
> a chariot for her favorite doll.

My brothers and I used to drive our Tonka Jeeps around with our GI
Joes (original, 1960s, full-size versions) at the wheels. Our sisters
would hijack the 4x4s, so Joe could take Barbie for a spin. Poor Ken
had no chance when he had to compete with an action figure in uniform!

--
Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

For those who don't know, Dave Barry is a comedian.

And for those who don't know, so is Terry.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Paul S Person <pspe...@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:8dj9ff1sq55bt18us...@4ax.com:

The peer reviewed research has been done. If you're unaware of it,
you're not qualified to participate in the conversation. Do your
own research.

>
>>We are programmed from birth by everything we see and do for
>>gender roles.
>
> Quite possibly, but then there /was/ a column by Dave Barry ...
>
> in which he reported giving his young (2 or 3 years) daughter a
> "really studly toy dump truck". And she played with it! She used
> it as a chariot for her favorite doll.

People with a normal IQ know the difference between a comedian and
a scientists.

Perhaps you could have a grown up 'splain it to you.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
news:09f26a59-2943-4dd8...@googlegroups.com:

He's even funny, sometimes, when he's not tedious.

>
> And for those who don't know, so is Terry.
>

And I'm my own punch line.

[Alan Baker]

Except for the part where comedians try to be funny deliberately...

:-)

[Alan Baker]

As always... ...the handwaving begins!

[Alan Baker]

On 2020-06-25 10:13 a.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:

>> For those who don't know, Terry is a comedian.
>
> He's even funny, sometimes, when he's not tedious, which is most of the time.

[Robert Carnegie]

You don't he's trying?

Also irritating, vexing, and (glances at thesaurus,
sets it aside) disgusting.

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:29:44 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
wrote:

I take it you've seen the Nissan ad?

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGMI_mWmb7g>

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in

news:d04c17d2-2ef0-4eea...@googlegroups.com:

I'm the most hilarious person I know.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

You've got to get out more...

[Kevrob]

Yup. Mattel sued Nissan over that.

https://variety.com/1997/biz/news/mattel-suing-nissan-over-tv-ad-111673635/

I wonder if the "Robot Chicken" guys were inspired by this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Chicken

--
Kevin R

[Kevrob]

Additional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CblkAI0_AAw

--
Kevin R

[BCFD36]

On 6/25/20 09:29, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:19:28 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 16:29:23 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:nhk7ffli73sfule5u...@4ax.com:

[stuff deleted]

>>
>>> We are programmed from birth by everything we see and do for gender
>>> roles.
>>
>> Quite possibly, but then there /was/ a column by Dave Barry ...
>>
>> in which he reported giving his young (2 or 3 years) daughter a
>> "really studly toy dump truck". And she played with it! She used it as
>> a chariot for her favorite doll.
>
> For those who don't know, Dave Barry is a comedian.
>
> And for those who don't know, so is Terry.
>

I would not call him a comedian. I'd call him a humorous columnist. His
column is mentioned above.

--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Probably Retired)

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

"Gary R. Schmidt" <grsc...@acm.org> wrote in news:s65gsg-b1i.ln1
@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au:

But we're supposed to stay at home as much as possible . . .

[Paul S Person]

I've only encountered him as a columnist.

Usually, funny, sometimes not -- I'm thinking of his ruminations on
his 5-year-old son starting kindergarten.

His movie reviews, while rare, were always worth reading.

[Paul S Person]

And ends ... unless he can provide the CAT (or whatever) scans!

Not just statistical studies.

[Robert Carnegie]

BTW, when I called Dave Barry a comedian, I meant the column.
And books.

[Paul S Person]

Still, one can't help wondering how he would do as a stand-up
comedian.