David Gerrold - War with the Cthorr
diverwpg
Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
have disappeared.
James Nicoll
I have no news but based on the fact that it's been 15 years
since the last installment and the fact that a 2000 release of the
next Chtorr book was cancelled, the odds of the series being finished
in that timeframe seem thin.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Will in New Haven
He isn't ever going to do another book in the series, let alone finish
it. This is not his official position but it is my opinion. I think we
have a better chance of seeing another book in this series than we do
of seeing a third _Dark Border_ book by Paul Edwin Zimmer. But Zimmer
never intended to do more than two books in that series and he has
passed away. And we don't have a MUCH better chance of seeing another
WwtCh book.
--
Will in New Haven
Tim McDaniel
<ab2ec14d-d6c6-4095...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
>I think we
>have a better chance of seeing another book in this series than we do
>of seeing a third _Dark Border_ book by Paul Edwin Zimmer. But Zimmer
>never intended to do more than two books in that series and he has
>passed away.
I'd call _A Gathering of Heroes_ a Dark Borders book too. It's been
quite a while since I read it, but it's certainly in the same
universe, and Wikipedia says that it's before _The Lost Prince_ and
_King Chondos' Ride_ and shares a major character (Istvan Divega).
... Hali crap. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Edwin_Zimmer> says
there was a fourth book I'd never heard of and four stories!
He is best known for his Dark Border series - a set of 4 published
books: The Lost Prince, "King Chondos' Ride, A Gathering of
Heroes, Ingulf the Mad and one still awaiting publication, The
King who was of Old. ...
Books and short stories of the Dark Border
Short stories
"The Shadow of Tugar" [Istvan DiVega], (ss) Fantasy Book Aug 1983
"A Swordsman from Carcosa" [Istvan DiVega], (nv) Fantasy Book Mar,
Jun 1986
"The Vision of Aldamir", (ss) MZBFM Fll 1988
"The Wolves of Sarlow" [Prince Tahion], (nv) Fantasy Book Sep 1984
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Joseph Nebus
He needs to finish building Manhattan's Second Avenue Subway
first.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Swartzendruber
My theory: he painted himself into a corner and has no idea where to go
or how to finish in a satisfactory way.
Nobody in particular
> My theory: he painted himself into a corner and has no idea where to go
> or how to finish in a satisfactory way.
Humanity dies, oh the embarrassment.
Eventually, the worms' descendants develop intelligence and civilization
and then discover these strange bipedal fossils and associated artifacts...
Will in New Haven
> In article
> <ab2ec14d-d6c6-4095-ba51-345b2a24a...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> I've known about those and, except for Heros, which I already have, I have been looking for all of them. However, none of them of them are _the_ third book. None tell us what happened when Istvan walked through that door. That it was very bad for the guys in the room is a given but I would love to read the scene. I know, because I talked to Paul before the books came out and he said it at other times also, that he thought that no more book or books were needed.
Maybe <The King that Was of Old> is the "next" book; maybe he changed
his mind. But I don't think so.
--
Will in New Haven
He rode into the Twin Sun's light,
And rode up to the tower's door,
And shouted loud at Hastur's gate,
"Men still fight on in Kudrapor!"
From Paul Edwin Zimmer’s THE DARK BORDER
Will in New Haven
wrote:
> "Dan Swartzendruber" <dswa...@druber.com> wrote in message <news:MPG.228409ad8...@news.lightband.com>...
That's one corner. And then there's "it's ok to fuck adolescants who
are in your care." No fuss made at the time that I know of but I don't
know whether that would continue.
Gene
6c88-453a-8dc...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:
> That's one corner. And then there's "it's ok to fuck adolescants who
> are in your care." No fuss made at the time that I know of but I don't
> know whether that would continue.
Surely not after the worms eat everyone.
Shawn Wilson
> My theory: he painted himself into a corner and has no idea where to go
> or how to finish in a satisfactory way.
I second that. But, really, while he makes a point that the Cthorr
are a billion years more evolved than earth life (which is itself
meaningless, they spent a billion years evolving against each other,
not us) technology is faster than evolution. Chemicals and engineered
bacteria and nukes should be able to finish off the Chtorr.
Carl Dershem
9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>
> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
> have disappeared.
Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
to make a living.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
David DeLaney
>> ... Hali crap. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Edwin_Zimmer> says
>> there was a fourth book I'd never heard of and four stories!
>>
>> He is best known for his Dark Border series - a set of 4 published
>> books: The Lost Prince, "King Chondos' Ride, A Gathering of
>> Heroes, Ingulf the Mad and one still awaiting publication, The
>> King who was of Old. ...
>
> been looking for all of them. However, none of them of them are _the_ third=
> book. None tell us what happened when Istvan walked through that door. That=
> it was very bad for the guys in the room is a given but I would love to rea=
>d the scene. I know, because I talked to Paul before the books came out and =
>he said it at other times also, that he thought that no more book or books w=
>ere needed.
Blink. I have all four books, my list says, but it's been literally years since
I reread any of them, so couldn't say whether any of them is what you're
looking for. I haven't read, to my recollection, any of the four short stories.
(Would they make an at least small-size book if brought out together?)
Dave "not on the sheer _scale_ of Erikson's Malazan saga, but along some of
the same lines, for anyone who's never read them - think of how Darkover might
have worked if the Comyn _were_ gods, or at least typical-god-like, and there
was an Enemy" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David T. Bilek
>diverwpg <wgeme...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b28130c8-bcc2-4550-8255-
>9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>>
>> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
>> have disappeared.
>
>Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
>books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
>to make a living.
>
Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and Dread
Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors plant. Not
in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on the line. If
Glen Cook can write several books a year while busting his ass
building cars, David Gerrold could have finished one frigging book in
15 years.
He can finish or not finish the Chtorr stuff; personally, I hope for
"finish". But that's a piss poor excuse. It's been more than fifteen
years for gods sake! He could have written one page a *week* and
finished a decade ago.
-David
William December Starr
David T. Bilek <david...@att.net> said:
> Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> But he's been distracted by having to make a living.
>
> Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and
> Dread Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors
> plant. Not in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on
> the line. If Glen Cook can write several books a year while
> busting his ass building cars, David Gerrold could have finished
> one frigging book in 15 years.
It depends on (1) how the author's brain works and (2) the nature of
the work. Cook was lucky in that (i) he can turn the writing part
of his brain on and off repeatedly without it apparently noticing
the interruptions and (ii) having had lots of assembly-line
assignment within GM which, once he got the hang of the movements,
gave him many small moments of down-time, usually well less than a
minute long, in which to pick up his notebook and pen, allow the
writing center of his brain to pick up right where it had left off,
and scribble down another sentence or two.
(Although he's never mentioned it in talks of his that I've been at,
I have to assume that he also benefited from mostly having sane
bosses/overseers who weren't the type of jerks to bust a productive
worker's ass about non-work-related activities like that.)
Does Gerrold's writing center work the same way in that regard as
Cook's? I don't know and I bet you don't either. Does whatever
he's doing to earn money these days allow him those kinds of breaks
for writing? I don't know and I bet you don't either.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Bryan Derksen
Indeed, I've never understood the "humanity is doomed" vibe that most
readers seem to get out of the series. Perhaps it's doomed because the
author has decided by fiat that the Chtorr are unbeatable, but if it
turns out to be the case my suspension of disbelief won't hold. The
humans in that setting have fearsomely advanced biotechnology and AI
compared to the real world, it should be relatively straightforward to
identify enzymatic pathways and genetic vulnerabilities that Chtorr have
but Terran life lacks, and hit those with massive poisonings to even out
the playing field.
I recall that nuking was frowned on because Chtorran life tended to
recolonize the burned areas faster than Terran life, but I don't see why
it'd be worse than letting Mandalas and Enterprise Fish and other
large-scale Chtorran structures organize themselves. Large-scale
organization is one of humanity's key advantages, forcing the Chtorran
ecology to remain decentralized makes sure we stay ahead in that area.
Though I imagine using really nasty chemical poisons would be more cost
effective than wasting plutonium.
Anyway. Perhaps one day David Gerrold's son will publish stuff based on
whatever notes he's got.
David T. Bilek
Starr) wrote:
...
>
>Does Gerrold's writing center work the same way in that regard as
>Cook's? I don't know and I bet you don't either. Does whatever
>he's doing to earn money these days allow him those kinds of breaks
>for writing? I don't know and I bet you don't either.
I'm not implying some sort of moral failing on his part for failing to
finish the series. I'm saying that "having to earn a living" isn't
the reason he hasn't finished it yet. I don't think that passes the
laugh test. It's been more than 15 years.
It's like if Ellison argued that he hadn't published LAST DANGEROUS
VISIONS yet because he had to earn a living. It just doesn't make any
sense.
-David
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Well, no. Gerrold actually has to *write* the books. All Ellison has to
do is decide what order to put the stories in and send it off to the
publisher.
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Sea Wasp
> Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and Dread
> Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors plant. Not
> in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on the line.
This is a pretty unique case. I couldn't do that. Most writers I know
could not. Asimov probably could. But I, for instance, generally need
an open block of about 3-4 hours of time to make it worthwhile. I take
about an hour to get into the writing "zone" in my head. Once there, I
can fly -- over 1,000 words per hour -- but don't interrupt me.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
pmfan57
wrote:
No, the worms don't want to believe in such fossils, and they really
don't want to believe in the testimony of a time travelling human from
the past who tries to tell them he can speak (although he initially
has an injury to his throat so he can only write notes.)
il...@rcn.com
> readers seem to get out of the series. Perhaps it's doomed because the
> author has decided by fiat that the Chtorr are unbeatable, but if it
> turns out to be the case my suspension of disbelief won't hold. The
> humans in that setting have fearsomely advanced biotechnology and AI
> compared to the real world, it should be relatively straightforward to
> identify enzymatic pathways and genetic vulnerabilities that Chtorr have
> but Terran life lacks, and hit those with massive poisonings to even out
> the playing field.
Most authors of alien invasion stories make their aliens stupid (or at
least extremely unimaginative) in order for humans to win. Gerrold
makes his humans stupid in order to drag out the invasion.
David T. Bilek
<seawasp...@sgeObviousinc.com> wrote:
>David T. Bilek wrote:
>
>> Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and Dread
>> Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors plant. Not
>> in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on the line.
>
> This is a pretty unique case. I couldn't do that. Most writers I know
>could not. Asimov probably could. But I, for instance, generally need
>an open block of about 3-4 hours of time to make it worthwhile. I take
>about an hour to get into the writing "zone" in my head. Once there, I
>can fly -- over 1,000 words per hour -- but don't interrupt me.
I agree with this. But are you honestly saying that you think the
reason that David Gerrold hasn't finished A METHOD FOR MADNESS,
despite having 16 years to work on it and despite claiming to have
most of it done for many years, is that he had to do other things to
earn money?
Again, not finishing a book is not a moral failing. And, yes, having
to do other things to earn money can delay a book. But it does not
delay a book that's mostly finished for SIXTEEN YEARS.
All I'm saying is that there is something going on with A METHOD FOR
MADNESS besides "didn't have time to finish it for sixteen years".
Maybe he has indeed painted himself into a corner and can't get out.
Maybe he has lost interest. Maybe it's like when I put something off
so long that I can't bear to face it because it means owning up to my
procrastination. Maybe he gets caught up with other things and
forgets about it. I have no idea.
But I don't believe it's because he's been too busy with other stuff
to finish. Do you really think it is? That if he really wanted to he
couldn't have found the time in 16 years to finish up a novel that is
supposedly mostly done?
-David
il...@rcn.com
> MADNESS besides "didn't have time to finish it for sixteen years".
> Maybe he has indeed painted himself into a corner and can't get out.
> Maybe he has lost interest. Maybe it's like when I put something off
> so long that I can't bear to face it because it means owning up to my
> procrastination. Maybe he gets caught up with other things and
> forgets about it. I have no idea.
>
> But I don't believe it's because he's been too busy with other stuff
> to finish. Do you really think it is? That if he really wanted to he
> couldn't have found the time in 16 years to finish up a novel that is
> supposedly mostly done?
Well, he *claimed* that "Chtorr" is his magnum opus, and he can not
release it if it is anything less than perfect.
pmfan57
Right. Better to live on a world with some radioactivity issues than
to be wiped out of existence. I kind of enjoyed the first three books
(although they were published so far apart that I kept forgetting the
details of the previous volumes as I read each new volume), but no way
giant worms couldn't be destroyed by even the weapons we have today.
Wayne Throop
You mean... the way we've been wiping out AIDS and antibiotic-resistant
diseases and preventing ocean algae blooms, and kudzu, and killer bees,
and so on and on, wimpy earth organisms that they are? I think you may
have a great deal of unwarranted confidence in what technology can do.
And IIRC most of humanity was wiped out by disease. To be faced
with literally hundreds of disease organisms using completely novel
mechanisms, and failing to beat them back, seems entirely plausible
to me. At that point, you're trying to put *anything* back together,,
and you're faced with space-kudzu driving out native organisms, also
on hundreds of fronts.
Yes, any given infestation could be destroeyed with technology.
But *all* of them, *and* defend earth ecosystems on a worldwide scale
into the bargain? Pfft. You're way optimistic.
: Better to live on a world with some radioactivity issues than to be
: wiped out of existence.
Sure. But this "world with some radioactivity" would mostly have
Cthorran critters running around. If you nuke the kudzu, then the roaches
and kudzu take over anyways. I'm not sure why that point would strain
anybody's credulity.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Howard Brazee
<david...@att.net> wrote:
>Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and Dread
>Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors plant. Not
>in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on the line. If
>Glen Cook can write several books a year while busting his ass
>building cars, David Gerrold could have finished one frigging book in
>15 years.
I wonder if he still lives near Tower Grove Park where he in 1980. I
haven't seen new books lately.
>He can finish or not finish the Chtorr stuff; personally, I hope for
>"finish". But that's a piss poor excuse. It's been more than fifteen
>years for gods sake! He could have written one page a *week* and
>finished a decade ago.
On the other hand, when Vernor Vinge quit his day job, he was unable
to write more. His mind needed time to think. Gerrold must have a
kind of writer's block. At least it isn't other people's works being
delayed (Hello Harlan).
endy9
isn't settled as to whether this is the unintelligent advance guard, foot
soldiers and the much more intelligent Chtoran "rulers" are yet to come.
--
Dennis/Endy
http://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/
~I was born to rock the boat. Some will sink but we will float.
Grab your coat. Let's get out of here.
You're my witness. I'm your Mutineer~ - Warren Zevon
- -
endy9
news:c91d970d-a8a1-43e4...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
As much as a raz DG about not finishing this and reselling it to us many
times, I would NOT want to see something published just to shut people up
that was clearly not up to the writing level of the previous books. Can you
say Dark Tower? <grin>
Default User
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:53:46 -0700, David T. Bilek
> <david...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, right. Glen Cook wrote a bunch of the Black Company and Dread
> > Empire stuff while working on the line at a General Motors plant.
> > Not in his off hours after work but, quite literally, on the line.
> > If Glen Cook can write several books a year while busting his ass
> > building cars, David Gerrold could have finished one frigging book
> > in 15 years.
>
> I wonder if he still lives near Tower Grove Park where he in 1980.
The GM plant moved out to Wentzville (St. Charles county) in the early
80s. That'd be a pretty hefty drive. I wouldn't be surprised if he
moved out to the suburbs to be a bit closer, but then people do get
attached to houses/neighborhoods.
>I haven't seen new books lately.
He has a Garrett coming out soon.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
John Schilling
>diverwpg <wgeme...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b28130c8-bcc2-4550-8255-
>9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
>> have disappeared.
>Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
>books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
>to make a living.
Isn't Gerrold a professional writer? You know, someone who makes a living
by, like, writing stuff?
And it's hard to imagine what he could have written that would have made
as much money as the next Chtorr book. Some new Trek franchise material,
perhaps, but that's not been what he's been writing the past fifteen
years. The nine novels he did manage to publish in that period, I doubt
any of them made as much as the last Chtorr book.
So I'm kind of skeptical on the whole, "making a living" thing. Writer's
block or lack of enthusiasm for that particular series, seems a whole lot
more plausible.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*John.Sc...@alumni.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Andrew Wheeler
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 01:15:16 GMT, Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >diverwpg <wgeme...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b28130c8-bcc2-4550-8255-
> >9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>
> >> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
> >> have disappeared.
>
> >Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
> >books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
> >to make a living.
>
> Isn't Gerrold a professional writer? You know, someone who makes a living
> by, like, writing stuff?
>
> And it's hard to imagine what he could have written that would have made
> as much money as the next Chtorr book. Some new Trek franchise material,
> perhaps, but that's not been what he's been writing the past fifteen
> years. The nine novels he did manage to publish in that period, I doubt
> any of them made as much as the last Chtorr book.
>
> So I'm kind of skeptical on the whole, "making a living" thing. Writer's
> block or lack of enthusiasm for that particular series, seems a whole lot
> more plausible.
You have a lot more faith in the selling power of book five in a dead
series than most publishers would.
If Book 5 doesn't stand on its own, the potential audience is
essentially limited to people who 1) have read the first four books, 2)
liked them, 3) remember them, and 4) are still alive. Every year since
the publication of the previous book brings those numbers down
substantially, and the only way to bring them back *up* again is to
republish the first four books to establish a new audience...which you
won't want to do unless #5 is *guaranteed* to come along.
_A Season for Slaughter_ was published in 1992, which is an eternity ago
in publishing. Whole careers have lived and died since then.
--
Andrew Wheeler
resident pessimist
Kurt Busiek
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 01:15:16 GMT, Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> diverwpg <wgeme...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b28130c8-bcc2-4550-8255-
>> 9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>>> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>
>>> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
>>> have disappeared.
>
>> Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
>> books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
>> to make a living.
>
> Isn't Gerrold a professional writer? You know, someone who makes a living
> by, like, writing stuff?
>
> And it's hard to imagine what he could have written that would have made
> as much money as the next Chtorr book.
I've never read the Chtorr series, but Gerrold has said his publisher
ended the SF line, rendering them all o/p. Tor wanted to pick them up,
but before they republished them, they wanted a new series from him.
So he wrote the "Jumping Off the Earth" series at their request, and
things are now set for them to republish the Chtorr books when the new
one is ready to go.
kdb
Nobody in particular
> The scenarios described only combat the current invaders. The issue still isn't settled as to whether this is the unintelligent
> advance guard, foot soldiers and the much more intelligent Chtoran "rulers" are yet to come.
Or what we see is all there is, or perhaps this is the "locust" phase
of something a little different that will emerge from the current alien
ecology. If there is an intelligence, maybe it's an emergent property
of some sort of macrostructure we haven't seen yet, formed from the
organisms we have seen, and it might not even recognize humans as
independent individuals, let alone individually intelligent. Of course,
Orson Scott Card already did this, sort of, with the Buggers in the
interminable Ender's Game series.
Carl Dershem
news:b9pm14lvqu6r7cg3m...@4ax.com:
Finishing would be relatively easy. But finishing and having it be the
book he wants it to be is less simple. The series has gotten very
complex, and the Chtorran ecology even more complex. He wrote bits and
pieces over the years, and was either not happy with them, or just didn't
have the time and concentration to get them right. ANd he spent a lot of
time 'cat-vacuuming'.
But the bits that are done are at least as good as what went before, and
now he's spending a lot of the time he spends on the book getting it in
order so it flows properly, and working on one of two bits that are still
fighting him.
James Nicoll
I believe the most recent book in the Dingilliad came out
in 2002. Tor has been kept waiting a while....
Are you quoting him from
http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Revenge-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553278444
Can someone refresh my memory as to what happened with
Bantam Spectra? I'm sure I've seen stuff from them recently.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Nicoll) wrote:
> Can someone refresh my memory as to what happened with
>Bantam Spectra? I'm sure I've seen stuff from them recently.
As I understand it, after both Bantam and Ballantine were bought by
Bertelsmann, there was some reorganizing to eliminate redundancies.
Plain ol' SF and fantasy all goes to Del Rey now, while Bantam does
slipstream and some of the media tie-ins.
But since I wasn't being published by either of them, or interested in
being published by either of them, I may have that garbled.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The eighth issue of Helix is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Kurt Busiek
Well, yes. But my point was in regard to the idea that book 5 in a
dead series would be a sure moneymaker. The publisher that wants it
wanted other stuff first. Who knows -- by the time it's done, they may
want another "other stuff" first...
> Are you quoting him from
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Revenge-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553278444
That's the quote I saw, yeah.
kdb
John Schilling
wrote:
>John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 01:15:16 GMT, Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >diverwpg <wgeme...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b28130c8-bcc2-4550-8255-
>> >9dc49f...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>> >> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>> >> Does anyone have any news? His website - www.gerrold.com - seems to
>> >> have disappeared.
>> >Finish? I don't know. But he's written considerable amounts of the next 2
>> >books, and what I've read is very good. But he's been distracted by having
>> >to make a living.
>> Isn't Gerrold a professional writer? You know, someone who makes a living
>> by, like, writing stuff?
>> And it's hard to imagine what he could have written that would have made
>> as much money as the next Chtorr book. Some new Trek franchise material,
>> perhaps, but that's not been what he's been writing the past fifteen
>> years. The nine novels he did manage to publish in that period, I doubt
>> any of them made as much as the last Chtorr book.
>> So I'm kind of skeptical on the whole, "making a living" thing. Writer's
>> block or lack of enthusiasm for that particular series, seems a whole lot
>> more plausible.
>You have a lot more faith in the selling power of book five in a dead
>series than most publishers would.
Perhaps, but it wasn't "book five in a dead series" for the first few
years of that period, at least.
And later in that period, he saw fit to write and got someone to publish
_Blood and Fire_. Which was either book three or book four of a dead
series. Dead and forgotten, for the most part.
>If Book 5 doesn't stand on its own, the potential audience is
>essentially limited to people who 1) have read the first four books, 2)
>liked them, 3) remember them, and 4) are still alive. Every year since
>the publication of the previous book brings those numbers down
>substantially, and the only way to bring them back *up* again is to
>republish the first four books to establish a new audience...which you
>won't want to do unless #5 is *guaranteed* to come along.
As I understand it, though, this is somewhat countered by the fact that
if #5 does come along and doesn't flop, it gets you lots of essentially
free sales for the first four.
And in any event, having a small potential audience for a book that
doesn't sell on its own, seems preferable to having *no* potential
audience for a book that fails on its own. Unless being a sequel
to the Chtorr tetrology actively *impeded* sales, which I'd think
could be avoided with proper marketing, it should still be at least
as good a prospect as most of his new and/or standalone works of the
past fifteen years.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*John.S...@alumni.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Nobody in particular
It must be just a trick to test their faith in the All-Devouring.
Andrew Wheeler
> On Sat, 3 May 2008 04:05:51 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> Nicoll) wrote:
>
> > Can someone refresh my memory as to what happened with
> >Bantam Spectra? I'm sure I've seen stuff from them recently.
>
> As I understand it, after both Bantam and Ballantine were bought by
> Bertelsmann, there was some reorganizing to eliminate redundancies.
> Plain ol' SF and fantasy all goes to Del Rey now, while Bantam does
> slipstream and some of the media tie-ins.
>
> But since I wasn't being published by either of them, or interested in
> being published by either of them, I may have that garbled.
Bantam Spectra does still exist, though it's been severely downsized at
least twice in the last ten-twelve years. (Doubleday Foundation, which
used to be the hardcover imprint what was then Bantam Doubleday Dell,
was killed by the Random House acquisition and subsequent
reorganization, but it had been mostly the Asimov imprint anyway.)
I think Spectra has two full editors acquiring basically full-time for
it -- Anne Groell and Juliet Ullman -- but it does a lot of urban
fantasy right on the paranormal romance borderline these days, along
with writers like George R.R. Martin, Alan Campbell, Tim Lebbon, Kelley
Armstrong, Tim Pratt, Scott Lynch and Felix Gilman. (They also published
John Klima's very hard-to-spell anthology _Logorrhea_.)
They don't have a strong line identity, which might be why they're not
as instantly recognizable. (Though I usually think I can tell Anne's
books from Juliet's.)
Actually, they seem to publish quite a bit, once I look at the lists.
They're a bit smaller than Del Rey, but still a substantial genre
imprint.
--
Andrew Wheeler
still obsessive about publishing houses
Konrad Gaertner
>
> > On Sat, 3 May 2008 04:05:51 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
> > Nicoll) wrote:
> >
> > > Can someone refresh my memory as to what happened with
> > >Bantam Spectra? I'm sure I've seen stuff from them recently.
> >
> it -- Anne Groell and Juliet Ullman -- but it does a lot of urban
> fantasy right on the paranormal romance borderline these days, along
> with writers like George R.R. Martin, Alan Campbell, Tim Lebbon, Kelley
> Armstrong, Tim Pratt, Scott Lynch and Felix Gilman. (They also published
> John Klima's very hard-to-spell anthology _Logorrhea_.)
Checking my booklog, I see Kelley Armstrong, Keri Arthur, Sarah Ash,
Tony Ballantyne, Alan Campbell, Lynn Flewelling, Tamara Siler Jones,
Scott Lynch, and John Meaney (also Steven Erikson, but that's
Bantam UK).
> They don't have a strong line identity, which might be why they're not
> as instantly recognizable. (Though I usually think I can tell Anne's
> books from Juliet's.)
I look to Bantam when I'm in the mood for lots of sex scenes, but
that may be due to reading more books by Arthur than any of the
other names mentioned. I thought Holly Lisle was the other reason
for this association, but it turns out she was published by Warner.
Bantam does seem to prefer authors who appear early in the alphabet.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
Bryan Derksen
> ::: bacteria and nukes should be able to finish off the Chtorr.
>
> You mean... the way we've been wiping out AIDS and antibiotic-resistant
> diseases and preventing ocean algae blooms, and kudzu, and killer bees,
> and so on and on, wimpy earth organisms that they are? I think you may
> have a great deal of unwarranted confidence in what technology can do.
Are we in danger of being wiped out by any of those things? Do any of
those things have a biochemistry that is completely unlike the "good"
stuff in the local environment that we're trying to preserve? Chtorr is
significantly different from those examples in both of those regards.
> And IIRC most of humanity was wiped out by disease. To be faced
> with literally hundreds of disease organisms using completely novel
> mechanisms, and failing to beat them back, seems entirely plausible
> to me. At that point, you're trying to put *anything* back together,,
> and you're faced with space-kudzu driving out native organisms, also
> on hundreds of fronts.
And yet, humanity post-plague is still shown to have resources and
technologies far in advance of what we've got now. They've still got the
ability to continue major research and to manufacture lots of advanced
technology. Presumably this means they have indeed managed to put things
back together fairly well.
> Yes, any given infestation could be destroeyed with technology.
> But *all* of them, *and* defend earth ecosystems on a worldwide scale
> into the bargain? Pfft. You're way optimistic.
Some collateral damage is inevitable at this point, the Terran ecosystem
is already very badly damaged. But stopping large predators from killing
humans is a problem humans solved in neolithic times, and given the
biotechnology humans are shown to have in the books I think it's
reasonable to expect that the same would apply to the smaller predators too.
> : Better to live on a world with some radioactivity issues than to be
> : wiped out of existence.
>
> Sure. But this "world with some radioactivity" would mostly have
> Cthorran critters running around. If you nuke the kudzu, then the roaches
> and kudzu take over anyways. I'm not sure why that point would strain
> anybody's credulity.
The suggestion was to use nukes in conjunction with a more widespread
biochemical attack. The nukes are merely to disrupt the large-scale
organization that Chtorran ecology tries to put together in Mandalas and
other such "city-like" structures. Nobody's proposing to use nukes
against kudzu or roaches, that would be silly. That's what Round-Up and
Raid are for.
Wayne Throop
:: You mean... the way we've been wiping out AIDS and
:: antibiotic-resistant diseases and preventing ocean algae blooms, and
:: kudzu, and killer bees, and so on and on, wimpy earth organisms that
:: they are? I think you may have a great deal of unwarranted
:: confidence in what technology can do.
: Are we in danger of being wiped out by any of those things?
Arguably, yes, a remote chance. The remoteness of the chance having
essentially nothing to do with how well humans are controlling them.
: The suggestion was to use nukes in conjunction with a more widespread
: biochemical attack.
Yes, but that supposes there's a biochemical attack that will selectively
eliminate chtorran critters more thoroughly than earth critters. It is
not implausible that such an agent would not be discovered in time, even
if it existed at all.
John Schilling
>:::: bacteria and nukes should be able to finish off the Chtorr.
>:: You mean... the way we've been wiping out AIDS and
>:: antibiotic-resistant diseases and preventing ocean algae blooms, and
>:: kudzu, and killer bees, and so on and on, wimpy earth organisms that
>:: they are? I think you may have a great deal of unwarranted
>:: confidence in what technology can do.
>: Are we in danger of being wiped out by any of those things?
>Arguably, yes, a remote chance. The remoteness of the chance having
>essentially nothing to do with how well humans are controlling them.
I would argue that it has *everything* to do with how well humans are
controlling them. We know perfectly well how to control, or even wipe
out, e.g. AIDS. We've had the technology and the understanding to do
so for at least a century.
We just aren't *willing* to do so. And rightly so, IMO - better to
live with the AIDS epidemic, than to live with what we'd have to do
to eliminate it right now.
But if "living with it" is off the table, on account of it's going to
kill us all, then bye-bye AIDS. Or Kudzu, or whatever. Kudzu might
be tougher than AIDS, and Chtorrans tougher even than Kudzu, but if
it comes to that there's always the Ripley/Hicks doctrine.
Carl Dershem
news:9cts14h7rnf9j9s65...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 05 May 2008 00:18:05 GMT, thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
> wrote:
>
>>:::: bacteria and nukes should be able to finish off the Chtorr.
>
>>:: You mean... the way we've been wiping out AIDS and
>>:: antibiotic-resistant diseases and preventing ocean algae blooms,
>>:: and kudzu, and killer bees, and so on and on, wimpy earth organisms
>>:: that they are? I think you may have a great deal of unwarranted
>>:: confidence in what technology can do.
>
>>: Are we in danger of being wiped out by any of those things?
>
>>Arguably, yes, a remote chance. The remoteness of the chance having
>>essentially nothing to do with how well humans are controlling them.
>
> I would argue that it has *everything* to do with how well humans are
> controlling them. We know perfectly well how to control, or even wipe
> out, e.g. AIDS. We've had the technology and the understanding to do
> so for at least a century.
>
> We just aren't *willing* to do so. And rightly so, IMO - better to
> live with the AIDS epidemic, than to live with what we'd have to do
> to eliminate it right now.
>
> But if "living with it" is off the table, on account of it's going to
> kill us all, then bye-bye AIDS. Or Kudzu, or whatever. Kudzu might
> be tougher than AIDS, and Chtorrans tougher even than Kudzu, but if
> it comes to that there's always the Ripley/Hicks doctrine.
Problem with that is that the Chtorrans recover quicker and stronger
after a nuking than Terrans do. It's been shown many times. We could,
theoretically turn the entire planet into a ball of fused glass, but
that's what it wold take, and even that is not a guaranteed win.
Can you say 'Pyrrhic victory"?
Wayne Throop
:: essentially nothing to do with how well humans are controlling them.
: John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu>
: I would argue that it has *everything* to do with how well humans are
: controlling them. We know perfectly well how to control, or even wipe
: out, e.g. AIDS. We've had the technology and the understanding to do
: so for at least a century.
: We just aren't *willing* to do so. And rightly so, IMO - better to
: live with the AIDS epidemic, than to live with what we'd have to do to
: eliminate it right now.
Hrm. I don't think we have the understanding and technology to
totally wipe out hundereds of new diseases appearing suddenly, along
with total ecological collapse. In the case of AIDS, you just find
those people who have the disease, and those who don't, and segregate them.
(Or at least, that's what I assume you mean by having the tech to do
it for a century, or some variant thereof).
The analogous draconian measure would be to segregate terran and
cthorran ecologies. Very simple, very easy. Ie, evacuate to space.
Which is indeed the direction things were going in the series.
However, controlling the cthorran ecology while intermixed with the terran
ecology, with the large scale equivalent of radiation treatment followed
by chemotherapy, is analogous to actually curing aids. And we haven't
had the tech to do that for a century... nor actually, have it now.
John Schilling
>:: Arguably, yes, a remote chance. The remoteness of the chance having
>:: essentially nothing to do with how well humans are controlling them.
>
>: John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu>
>: I would argue that it has *everything* to do with how well humans are
>: controlling them. We know perfectly well how to control, or even wipe
>: out, e.g. AIDS. We've had the technology and the understanding to do
>: so for at least a century.
>: We just aren't *willing* to do so. And rightly so, IMO - better to
>: live with the AIDS epidemic, than to live with what we'd have to do to
>: eliminate it right now.
>
>Hrm. I don't think we have the understanding and technology to
>totally wipe out hundereds of new diseases appearing suddenly, along
>with total ecological collapse. In the case of AIDS, you just find
>those people who have the disease, and those who don't, and segregate them.
>(Or at least, that's what I assume you mean by having the tech to do
>it for a century, or some variant thereof).
>
>The analogous draconian measure would be to segregate terran and
>cthorran ecologies. Very simple, very easy. Ie, evacuate to space.
>Which is indeed the direction things were going in the series.
The "Dr. Strangelove" solution would be easier, actually, and I don't
think you'd have to go even that far. Mineshafts aren't as *fun* as
spaceships, so I'm not surprised SF authors usually prefer the latter
solution.
Hmm, wait a minute. Strangelove had a solution for the "mineshafts
are no fun at all!" problem, didn't he...
>However, controlling the cthorran ecology while intermixed with the terran
>ecology, with the large scale equivalent of radiation treatment followed
>by chemotherapy, is analogous to actually curing aids.
Controlling the Chtorran ecology is not the goal; exterminating it is.
And refusing to exterminate a chunk of Chtorran ecology, no, not just
refusing to exterminating it but actually ceding it to uncontrolled
Chtorrans, to serve as a reservoir for future infestation, just because
there's still bits of terran ecology in there we can't rescue, is silly. A
sea of glass serves human interests better than an uncontrolled
Chtorran ecology.
More like curing cancer by amputation. With the advantage that ecologies
are much more divisible than bodies; there's basically nothing you can't
amputate if you really need to.
Justin Fang
John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
>Controlling the Chtorran ecology is not the goal; exterminating it is.
>And refusing to exterminate a chunk of Chtorran ecology, no, not just
>refusing to exterminating it but actually ceding it to uncontrolled
>Chtorrans, to serve as a reservoir for future infestation, just because
>there's still bits of terran ecology in there we can't rescue, is silly. A
>sea of glass serves human interests better than an uncontrolled
>Chtorran ecology.
It's been a while since I read the books, but ISTR that the Cthorran ecology
had infested Earth starting at the microbial level, even in apparently
untouched areas. So to exterminate it from Earth you'd basically have to
autoclave the entire planet. And then you'd have the problem of trying to
ensure that no Cthorran viral or bacterial equivalents were hiding out in
the ecologies--including people--you'd stocked your space colonies with.
It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style upload-everyone-
and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Wayne Throop
:: terran ecology, with the large scale equivalent of radiation
:: treatment followed by chemotherapy, is analogous to actually curing
:: aids.
: John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu>
: Controlling the Chtorran ecology is not the goal; exterminating it is.
Ah. Yes, good point; "control" is a euphemism of sorts. But the cancer
analogy is still reasonably apt. Sometimes it works... but with really
aggressive cancers, it doesn't. It's not implausible to me that it not work.
: And refusing to exterminate a chunk of Chtorran ecology, no, not just
: refusing to exterminating it but actually ceding it to uncontrolled
: Chtorrans, to serve as a reservoir for future infestation, just
: because there's still bits of terran ecology in there we can't rescue,
: is silly.
Right. But the analogy is dispersed "seeds" of the cthorran ecology having
metastasized all over the place.
: A sea of glass serves human interests better than an uncontrolled
: Chtorran ecology.
Right. Fall back and nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
(Or from the mine shafts...)
Ahem. Anyways, the analogy might be normally-lethal total body radiation
doses, while preserving bone marrow for later re-implanatation.
Not an exact analogy, but the point of interest, that you aren't trying
to be gentle here, and you're prepared to do things that would normally
be self-defeating, remains.
: More like curing cancer by amputation. With the advantage that
: ecologies are much more divisible than bodies; there's basically
: nothing you can't amputate if you really need to.
Yes... though it implies chopping off biodiversity, and it's not totally
sure that wouldn't have horrid consequences later. And at least for
microbes and/or viruses, there may be no way to amputate everything, since
the whole biosphere, including all surviving humans, may be contaminated.
But even so, the "surviving humans" demonstrate they can survivve with
that level of contamination (or seem to, short term, and if everybody's
doomed, then everybody's doomed anyways).
PV
>Well, he *claimed* that "Chtorr" is his magnum opus, and he can not
>release it if it is anything less than perfect.
Personally, I think it's a massive case of writer's block. He got this
giant story stuck in his brain and can't get it out. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Dimensional Traveler
> il...@rcn.com writes:
>> Well, he *claimed* that "Chtorr" is his magnum opus, and he can not
>> release it if it is anything less than perfect.
>
> Personally, I think it's a massive case of writer's block. He got this
> giant story stuck in his brain and can't get it out. *
And I am now struggling very hard to avoid the laxitive jokes.
--
.-- - ..-. ..--..
pmfan57
> I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>
> Does anyone have any news? His website -www.gerrold.com- seems to
> have disappeared.
Just saying Cthorr makes me feel like I'm gagging up a fur ball. It
has been a pretty long time and now I don't care if I ever read the
last two books.
William December Starr
jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
When isn't that reasonable?
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Will in New Haven
> In article <fvn3tg$r6...@panix2.panix.com>,
> just...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>
> > It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
> > upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>
> When isn't that reasonable?
When it would mean leaving your dogs and cats.
--
Will in New Haven
Justin Fang
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <fvn3tg$r6k$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>When isn't that reasonable?
When people mostly don't want to do it. Even ignoring questions of
technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I just don't
think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is going to be
appealing to most humans in most situations.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Will in New Haven
> In article <fvoqjq$5i...@panix1.panix.com>,
> >> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
> >> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
> >When isn't that reasonable?
>
> When people mostly don't want to do it. Even ignoring questions of
> technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I just don't
> think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is going to be
> appealing to most humans in most situations.
Especially those who know programmers and sysadmins.
William December Starr
Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> said:
> wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> just...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>>
>>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>>
>> When isn't that reasonable?
>
> When it would mean leaving your dogs and cats.
Can't we upload them too?
William December Starr
jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>>
>>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>>
>> When isn't that reasonable?
>
> When people mostly don't want to do it. Even ignoring questions
> of technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I
> just don't think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is
> going to be appealing to most humans in most situations.
Well then, when the tech becomes available they can decline to
partake, and die along with their meat in one or two handfuls of
decades while the rest of us shake our heads in sad wonder.
Taki Kogoma
allegedly proclaimed to rec.arts.sf.written:
But if you've left your bodies behind, you don't have heads to shake...
Gym "Just to get the obvious out of the way..." Quirk
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.
Joseph Nebus
>In article <fvn3tg$r6k$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>When isn't that reasonable?
When you're going to be uploaded into the Atary 2600 game
of 'E.T.: The Extra-terrestrial'. As Elliot.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mimus
> In article <fvn3tg$r6k$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>
>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>
> When isn't that reasonable?
I'd rather not be copied and then destroyed, myself.
Regardless of what the new copy thinks.
YMMV
("Take me apart, take me apart, you must be off your head . . . .")
--
The best piece of logic I ever heard, Mr Larynx; the very best,
I assure you.
< _Nightmare Abbey_
Justin Fang
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <fvpnf9$8sv$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>>>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>>>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>>> When isn't that reasonable?
>> When people mostly don't want to do it. Even ignoring questions
>> of technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I
>> just don't think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is
>> going to be appealing to most humans in most situations.
>Well then, when the tech becomes available they can decline to
>partake, and die along with their meat in one or two handfuls of
>decades while the rest of us shake our heads in sad wonder.
That assumes that uploading will come along before indefinite biological
life extension. I don't see much reason to believe that one imaginary
technology should be easier than the other.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com> said
>On Tue, 06 May 2008 01:33:46 -0400, William December Starr wrote:
>
>> In article <fvn3tg$r6k$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>>
>>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>>
>> When isn't that reasonable?
>
>I'd rather not be copied and then destroyed, myself.
>
>Regardless of what the new copy thinks.
>
you.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
11,517 Km walked. 2,259 Km PROWs surveyed. 40.9% complete.
PV
>technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I just don't
>think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is going to be
>appealing to most humans in most situations.
How do you know you're not already? *
David DeLaney
>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) writes:
>>technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I just don't
>>think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is going to be
>>appealing to most humans in most situations.
>
>How do you know you're not already? *
There would be MANY more visible bugs in the universe's code. Plus loading
glitches when you zoned.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
mimus
> Bitstring <vYednX1nSYYCP73V...@giganews.com>, from the
> wonderful person mimus <tinmi...@hotmail.com> said
>
>> On Tue, 06 May 2008 01:33:46 -0400, William December Starr wrote:
>>
>>> In article <fvn3tg$r6k$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>> jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) said:
>>>
>>>> It's the sort of scenario that starts making an Egan-style
>>>> upload-everyone-and-abandon-flesh solution look reasonable.
>>>
>>> When isn't that reasonable?
>>
>> I'd rather not be copied and then destroyed, myself.
>>
>> Regardless of what the new copy thinks.
>
> Strangely that's what the old one said, yesterday, before we did it to
> you.
Great minds think alike, regardless of infrastructure.
--
"Ah*ooh*ah*ooh*ah*ooh*ah*ooh*ah."
< _Shaun of the Dead_
Carl Dershem
@panix1.panix.com:
Definitely not something I'd want to do.
Nobody in particular
In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming the
uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even indefinite biological
life extension wouldn't prevent accidental death. I think some take this
approach in the Heechee-verse.
WaltBJ
> On May 1, 4:30 pm, diverwpg <wgemedic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would like to finish reading the series before I retire - 7.5 years.
>
> > have disappeared.
>
> Just saying Cthorr makes me feel like I'm gagging up a fur ball. It
> has been a pretty long time and now I don't care if I ever read the
> last two books.
Reading one of the books and getting to where heavy-duty projectile
weapons don't even faze one of the bugs - I gave up. I know weapons
and the idea a biological entity could shrug off a man-portable weapon
was just too much for my willingness to believe.
BTW I read a book recently where a back-up clone was always standing
by in stasis and frequent uploads kept it up to date was a main
mcguffin in the plot - so that avenue has not been ignored..
Walt BJ
Bryan Derksen
> Problem with that is that the Chtorrans recover quicker and stronger
> after a nuking than Terrans do. It's been shown many times. We could,
> theoretically turn the entire planet into a ball of fused glass, but
> that's what it wold take, and even that is not a guaranteed win.
>
> Can you say 'Pyrrhic victory"?
We have the tech to live on a ball of fused glass. The Chtorrans don't.
A costly victory, but a victory nonetheless; in the long run we'll rebuild.
Though I don't think it'll come to that. The Chtorrans are from a
completely different evolutionary path from Terran life, there's _bound_
to be some vital biochemical pathway in them that we can poison with
impunity. The nukes and the flamethrowers and the robots just have to
keep Chtorr busy long enough for us to determine it.
Bryan Derksen
> Reading one of the books and getting to where heavy-duty projectile
> weapons don't even faze one of the bugs - I gave up. I know weapons
> and the idea a biological entity could shrug off a man-portable weapon
> was just too much for my willingness to believe.
IIRC the claim was that Chtorran worms have a "decentralized" body plan,
so that damage to any particular part of the worm's body didn't
adversely affect the functioning of the rest of it. I can kinda sorta
buy that, but the problem is that there's a _reason_ why most highly
active mobile macroscopic life forms have centralized body plans. It's
much more efficient to have specialized organs each dedicated to just
one or two tasks. So the worms should be slower to move, grow, breed,
and so forth, compared to similar-sized Terran life forms. In any
competition other than the limited arena of bullet resistance they
should be at a disadvantage.
But here, as elsewhere, Gerrold puts his thumb on the scale and makes
the worms more ecologically competitive than they logically should be.
The weapon the humans come up with to overcome this (a gun whose bullets
contained chemicals that caused an endothermic reaction powerful enough
to freeze the worm solid) didn't seem particularly plausible either.
Just blow it to shreds already, who cares if the shreds keep twitching?
Gene
$Cj7.24075@pd7urf2no:
> We have the tech to live on a ball of fused glass.
We do? What kind of ecosystem does fused glass support?
Aaron Denney
> On Tue, 06 May 2008 14:24:55 -0500, PV <pv+u...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>jus...@panix.com (Justin Fang) writes:
>>>technical plausibility and the usual philosophical issues, I just don't
>>>think the prospect of becoming a entity of pure code is going to be
>>>appealing to most humans in most situations.
>>
>>How do you know you're not already? *
>
> There would be MANY more visible bugs in the universe's code.
One man's bug is another man's feature. Einstein sure seemed to think
QM was a bug.
> Plus loading glitches when you zoned.
You mean you haven't experienced those?
--
Aaron Denney
-><-
Nobody in particular
Probably Chaga and maybe even Chtorr? (D'oh!)
Default User
> In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming the
> uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even indefinite
> biological life extension wouldn't prevent accidental death. I think
> some take this approach in the Heechee-verse.
Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I die. Whatever
you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you could make two or ten
or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Wayne Throop
:: We have the tech to live on a ball of fused glass.
: Gene <ge...@chewbacca.org>
: We do? What kind of ecosystem does fused glass support?
Well, it's the same solution as evacuating to the sterile environment of
space, really; it's just we bring the space to earth rather than going
to where the space already is. See also "mine shaft gap".
And by "we have", presumably is meant "in the story, their tech slightly
in advance of ours, can support closed isolated environments indefinitely".
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
David DeLaney
Well, none that I haven't also experienced just staying in the same place
for a while. This backup-operation thingy called 'sleep' doesn't seem to
vary much with velocity or location...
il...@rcn.com
> the worms more ecologically competitive than they logically should be.
> The weapon the humans come up with to overcome this (a gun whose bullets
> contained chemicals that caused an endothermic reaction powerful enough
> to freeze the worm solid) didn't seem particularly plausible either.
IIRC, there was no such thing. "Freezing weapon" was simply high-
pressure jet of liquid nitrogen. SFnal part was insulating it well
enough for a human to carry it around for any length of time.
> Just blow it to shreds already, who cares if the shreds keep twitching?
Which was done, with bombs and tanks. Again, IIRC, things like RPG's
and shoulder-fired rockets were rarely used because of how *fast* a
worm is. Seems that most humans simply do not have enough nerve to
hold an RPG steady when a screeching worm is barreling down on them; a
flamethrower is heavier, but much easier to aim. Vehicle-mounted
weapons had no problems at all.
Nobody in particular
> Nobody in particular wrote:
>
>
>> In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming the
>> uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even indefinite
>> biological life extension wouldn't prevent accidental death. I think
>> some take this approach in the Heechee-verse.
>
> Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I die. Whatever
> you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you could make two or ten
> or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
Yeah, but it may be better than nothing at all. For that matter, if you
step into a Star Trek transporter, is the "you" that appears somewhere
else really the same person that was dematerialized? The teleporters
in Barton's "Dark Sky Legion" and fax plates in the Queendom of Sol
stories were explicitly destructive, with little or no quantum hand-
waving, and with possible extensive bit-twiddling in transit.
Default User
> "Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> <news:68e4ouF...@mid.individual.net>...
>
> > Nobody in particular wrote:
> >
> >
> > > In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming
> > > the uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even
> > > indefinite biological life extension wouldn't prevent accidental
> > > death. I think some take this approach in the Heechee-verse.
> >
> > Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I die. Whatever
> > you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you could make two or
> > ten or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
>
> Yeah, but it may be better than nothing at all.
Better for whom? I'm dead, so I don't care.
> For that matter, if
> you step into a Star Trek transporter, is the "you" that appears
> somewhere else really the same person that was dematerialized?
I'm not riding in that thing!
GSV Three Minds in a Can
person Nobody in particular <nob...@nowhere.INVALID> said
The ones in Disch's _Echo Round His Bones_ are way scarier than that, as
it happens ..
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
William December Starr
"Default User" <defaul...@yahoo.com> said:
> Nobody in particular wrote:
>
>> In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming
>> the uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even
>> indefinite biological life extension wouldn't prevent accidental
>> death. I think some take this approach in the Heechee-verse.
>
> Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I
> die. Whatever you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you
> could make two or ten or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
[Insert the discussion from the Buffy episode "Lie to Me" here.]
Will in New Haven
> In article <68e4ouF2rvik...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Default User" <defaultuse...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > Nobody in particular wrote:
>
> >> In a world with both, why not use uploading as a backup, assuming
> >> the uploading process isn't destructive? After all, even
> >> indefinite biological life extension wouldn't prevent accidental
> >> death. I think some take this approach in the Heechee-verse.
>
> > Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I
> > die. Whatever you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you
> > could make two or ten or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
>
> [Insert the discussion from the Buffy episode "Lie to Me" here.]
No episode from a TV show can counter the fact that the upload won't
be _me_ I won't experience what happens. The upload will be deluded
into thinking that is is me; that there is a continuous existance
going on. When there isn't. So this isn't any kind of solution to
mortality. YOU won't be there shaking your head; you'll be dead.
Whatever that means.
–
Will in New Haven
"To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee;
For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee."
-Herman Melville, "Moby Dick"
William December Starr
Will in New Haven <bill....@taylorandfrancis.com> said:
> No episode from a TV show can counter the fact that the upload
> won't be _me_ I won't experience what happens. The upload will be
> deluded into thinking that is is me; that there is a continuous
> existance going on. When there isn't. So this isn't any kind of
> solution to mortality. YOU won't be there shaking your head;
> you'll be dead. Whatever that means.
Depending on the manner of the upload, that's not clear at all.
I'm a process. Stop the process on one machine and start it up on
another, and continuity is maintained. It's only when there are two
different instances of the process available that the "They can't be
the same person" problem arises.
For example, if I make a static backup copy of myself on January 1st
and then go on living until I get hit by a bus on January 15th,
_then_ it becomes true that a startup made from the January 1st copy
won't be the same person as the me who experienced existence for an
additional fourteen days. But if I am placed in an induced coma on
January 1st, a static backup copy of me is made, and then my body is
shut down without me ever coming out of the coma then the restarted
process made from the backup copy _is_ me. Certainly nothing that
was me is not there, anyway.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
And if two processes are restarted at the same time?
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Carl Dershem
news:6RuUj.319$Xv3...@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
Have you read "Kil'n People"?
Sea Wasp
>
> And if two processes are restarted at the same time?
I disagree with both posters, actually. Whether it's started at the
same time, serially, or with gaps, all of them are me. There's just
many more of me if you start running many more such processes. The
only ways in which they are NOT me is if you either:
1) Define "me" to be "the physical body and consciousness thereof,
inseparably so, such that a discontinuity in EITHER means I'm no
longer me,
or
2) Have some mystical concept of a soul or something else that cannot
therefore be uploaded, duplicated, etc.
If 1) is the case, then I've died at least four times and I've just
been deluding myself into thinking I'm me, because anaesthesia leaves
me with NO continuity; there's a gap in my timeline that has no bridge.
If 2) is the case, we're not talking the same language.
Our language doesn't handle this discussion well, however; it has
some of the same issues as time travel.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
loua...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> No episode from a TV show can counter the fact that the upload won't
> be _me_ I won't experience what happens. The upload will be deluded
> into thinking that is is me; that there is a continuous existance
> going on. When there isn't. So this isn't any kind of solution to
> mortality. YOU won't be there shaking your head; you'll be dead.
> Whatever that means.
Suppose that part of the copying process involves the copyee being
unconscious. You wake up with another 'you' and both of you insist
you're the real one. How do we test your two claims?
PV
>Because there's no such thing as a backup? If I die, I die. Whatever
>you make from a copy isn't me. The fact that you could make two or ten
>or ten thousand copies should tell you that.
I certainly agree on a case of straight-up uploading - you're just making a
copy. I can't for a moment see wanting to do that, unless I was dying
anyway.
How about the stepwise approach? Some computer equipment is put into your
brain, say between the hemispheres. Over time, this equipment duplicates, and
takes over the neurological activity that the brain tissue in that area
does. You're still you, right? Carry the process forward - the computer
grows into your brain, taking over the functionality of even a neuron at a
time, while also (as sensory areas are converted) creating linkages to the
computer world. At all points in the process, all of your existing brain
functions are unchanged - you don't know or care that it's happpening,
other than that you have gained the ability to replay events in the first
person, can instantly remember anything you wish to, and you start to see
typing and staring at a screen as hopelessly quaint.
Eventually, no brain cells are left, and the network you're now part of
has the ability to transfer all of the processing done by your new
brain to other parts of itself. You've got no body, but at no point have
you died. You can even keep around the fleshbag if you want to go out and
smell the fresh air and run in the tall grass.
Doesn't sound too terrible, does it? *
PV
>I'm a process. Stop the process on one machine and start it up on
>another, and continuity is maintained. It's only when there are two
>different instances of the process available that the "They can't be
>the same person" problem arises.
To the rest of the world, maybe. But to ME, the original me, I'm
hooking myself up to something that will kill me. It's small consolation
that there's a copy running - screw that guy.
>additional fourteen days. But if I am placed in an induced coma on
>January 1st, a static backup copy of me is made, and then my body is
>shut down without me ever coming out of the coma then the restarted
>process made from the backup copy _is_ me. Certainly nothing that
>was me is not there, anyway.
Except that even in a coma, some brain activity happens. There must be a
discontinuity here, and I don't see how if there is one that the original
person can be considered to have 'survived' the experience.
If it's going to happen, it has to be in an manner that happens as you
continue to live, so that there's no transition between the two states. *
PV
>Have you read "Kil'n People"?
The misplaced apostrophe is pretty funny!
The thing is though, in Kiln People, the clay copies knew that they weren't
the original, and re-merged their knowledge back into the original when the
job was done. The protagonist at the end died, even if sorta kinda he
continued to exist to the rest of the world. *
Will in New Haven
The important thing is not who the external world accepts as me. The
important thing is that _I_ continue being me. Consciousness is a very
puzzling phenomenon. I can't even spell it. However, it is certainly
not clear that the upload is going to be me in the sense that I mean.
In answer to how do you decide. Trust me. Would I lie to you?
--
Will in New Haven
PV
> I disagree with both posters, actually. Whether it's started at the
>same time, serially, or with gaps, all of them are me. There's just
You do not believe that, and I'll prove it. Thought experiment:
1) I just made a perfect copy of you down to the last atom,
nondestructively.
2) I am now pointing a gun at your head. Do you mind if I pull the trigger?
"You" are still alive over there, so no worries, right?
> 1) Define "me" to be "the physical body and consciousness thereof,
>inseparably so, such that a discontinuity in EITHER means I'm no
>longer me,
That's kind of where I am on the issue. "Me" is the continuous existence of
my consciousness. Even people who clinically die experience that - their
brain frantically struggles with the lack of oxygen and sensory data until
everything starts working again, and often they remember the experience. If
that is stopped, that instance of me is dead. To the outside world, a copy
may go on, and anyone who didn't know what happened will never suspect it,
maybe the *copy* might not even suspect it, but your original consciousness
is dead, period. You can't concieve of a situation where your consciousness
"jumps" to the copy unless you want to get into mushy crap involving souls,
or you do the uploading in such a manner that there is no actual transition.
I don't think this topic has been explored very well in the books where the
concept of uploading have been a major point. Often the story starts from
the point of view of the copy, and as I said before, screw that guy. *
Bill Snyder
Funny, that's exactly what the other one said, too.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
David DeLaney
>> Suppose that part of the copying process involves the copyee being
>> unconscious. You wake up with another 'you' and both of you insist
>> you're the real one. How do we test your two claims?
>
>The important thing is not who the external world accepts as me. The
>important thing is that _I_ continue being me. Consciousness is a very
>puzzling phenomenon. I can't even spell it. However, it is certainly
>not clear that the upload is going to be me in the sense that I mean.
>
>In answer to how do you decide. Trust me. Would I lie to you?
You are a Jack Chalker series, and I claim to be of two minds about this.
Gene
news:3da37dd9-c3b7-46e5-9429-bc623877b72d@
34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> The important thing is not who the external world accepts as
me. The
> important thing is that _I_ continue being me. Consciousness
is a very
> puzzling phenomenon. I can't even spell it. However, it is
certainly
> not clear that the upload is going to be me in the sense that
I mean.
If we aren't talking science fiction, nothing is clear. It's
certainly not clear it could be done at all, or that if it
appeared to succeed, the result would involve another
consciousness. What you think would probably happen depends on
your metaphysical presuppositions, which in most conversations
like this, people take as givens.
pmfan57
There are currently weapons on ships for taking out incoming
missiles. The Cthorr (gag, gag) can't be faster than an Exocet
missile, can they? Just hand out gatling guns with gyro assisted
aiming mechanisms. Or hit them from the air with fighter/bombers.
Reminds me of the movie Aliens in which those marines could easily
have killed the aliens without the limitations placed on them.
Aaron Denney
> Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> writes:
>>Have you read "Kil'n People"?
>
> The misplaced apostrophe is pretty funny!
It was released in two different areas, one with the apostrophe, one
without.
Aaron Denney
>> I disagree with both posters, actually. Whether it's started at the
>>same time, serially, or with gaps, all of them are me. There's just
>
> You do not believe that, and I'll prove it. Thought experiment:
>
> 1) I just made a perfect copy of you down to the last atom,
> nondestructively.
>
> 2) I am now pointing a gun at your head. Do you mind if I pull the trigger?
> "You" are still alive over there, so no worries, right?
That's not an argument, that's just appealing to visceral emotions
evolved under the circumstances where that would be an entire death,
rather than amputation of memories from the point of cloning.
Will in New Haven
> On 2008-05-08, PV <pv+use...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > Sea Wasp <seawaspObvi...@sgeObviousinc.com> writes:
> >> I disagree with both posters, actually. Whether it's started at the
> >>same time, serially, or with gaps, all of them are me. There's just
>
> > You do not believe that, and I'll prove it. Thought experiment:
>
> > 1) I just made a perfect copy of you down to the last atom,
> > nondestructively.
>
> > 2) I am now pointing a gun at your head. Do you mind if I pull the trigger?
> > "You" are still alive over there, so no worries, right?
>
> That's not an argument, that's just appealing to visceral emotions
> evolved under the circumstances where that would be an entire death,
> rather than amputation of memories from the point of cloning.
Those circumstances are the only ones we have or will likely ever
have.
--
Will in New Haven
>