Reversal of magic/mundane numbers.
Tina Hall
people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches, and magic itself,
with suspicion, or looking down on them - sometimes with the gifted
people returning the attitude.
How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
least trying to prevent them from using technology?
The idea occured to me that such a setting would be a splendid
explanation why fantasy worlds often lack in proper inventions, which
sadly isn't used as far as I know.
(That and the attitude towards a minority of magic-lacking people itself
turned up when I had another look at the Magic Earth world. And it's
unlikely that it hasn't been done before.)
--
Tina
To Hell with internet.
### XP v3.40 RC3 ###
Robert Sneddon
Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> writes
>How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
>few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
>cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
>majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
>least trying to prevent them from using technology?
It's not an exact fit but in the Lord Darcy stories, magic is the
accepted method of doing mundane things like forensic science,
locksmithing and security, even storing food. There are only a few
people with the Talent. They are respected members of society, licenced
by the Church. Scientists exist but are generally regarded as eccentrics
and possibly dangerous disruptive forces. They are often people who
wished they could be Talented, but when they find out they aren't they
reject magic and turn to science. In at least one of the stories Lord
Darcy (an investigator for the King) is brought in to solve the strange
death of a member of the nobility who was such a person. These aren't
stories where most people have magic talents though.
Sometimes the magic and the science blend together; Lord Darcy carries
a secret device that consists of a thin tungsten wire mounted in front
of a dished reflector. The wire is protected by a magic spell so it will
not burn out no matter how hot it gets. It is connected via copper wires
to a stack of plates of differing kinds of metal separated by
acid-soaked paper. By pushing a "switch" he can make this device emit a
bright light without burning a candle or oil in a lantern!
--
My gmail account is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Sea Wasp
> In message <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>,
> Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> writes
>
>
>>How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
>>few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
>>cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
>>majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
>>least trying to prevent them from using technology?
>
>
> It's not an exact fit but in the Lord Darcy stories, magic is the
> accepted method of doing mundane things like forensic science,
> locksmithing and security, even storing food.
Piers Anthony's "Xanth" series (as with all Anthony, first 1-3 books
are readable, toss the rest) is set in a world where everyone and
everything has a magical Talent. If you don't have one, you get
exiled. The first book is focused on a character who apparently
doesn't have a Talent.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
R Bradford Jones
> In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of non-magic
> people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches, and magic itself,
> with suspicion, or looking down on them - sometimes with the gifted
> people returning the attitude.
>
> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
> few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
> cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
> majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
> least trying to prevent them from using technology?
The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit further,
actually: _everybody_ has magical ability. Everybody falls into one of
the eight mysteries. (Except for a few babies born without magical
abilities at all, who are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require
the capitalization of that term.)
The backstory involves there being a ninth mystery (technology) for those
without magic, and some sort of war/conflict[1] that leads to its extinction.
Of course, the protagonist is born Dead but soft-hearted individuals keep
him alive long enough for him to upset the apple-cart.
BJ
[1] I forget the details; it's been a long time since I read even the first
book, and I don't think I got any further than that.
--
Brad Jones -- use...@brad.kazrak.com
"Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy."
-- Joseph Campbell
pma...@hotmail.com
Tina Hall wrote:
> In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of non-magic
> people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches, and magic itself,
> with suspicion, or looking down on them - sometimes with the gifted
> people returning the attitude.
>
> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
> few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
> cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
> majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
> least trying to prevent them from using technology?
There's Donald McQuinn, post-apocalyptic series
_Warrior_, _Wanderer_, _Witch_,
where technology, even (especially) reading, are forbidden. Various
witches are more common than technologists, but still rare.
The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based on
secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the status
quo...
It's out of print, but easy to find used.
Tina Hall
>> In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of
>> non-magic people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches,
>> and magic itself, with suspicion, or looking down on them -
>> sometimes with the gifted people returning the attitude.
>>
>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
>> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
>> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
>> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
>> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
>> from using technology?
> The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit
> further, actually: _everybody_ has magical ability.
That alone is very interesting.
> Everybody falls into one of the eight mysteries.
What does that mean?
> (Except for a few babies born without magical abilities at all, who
> are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require the capitalization
> of that term.)
Ow. Not a friendly world, I suppose.
> The backstory involves there being a ninth mystery (technology)
> for those without magic, and some sort of war/conflict[1] that
> leads to its extinction.
Cool idea.
> Of course, the protagonist is born Dead but soft-hearted
> individuals keep him alive long enough for him to upset the
> apple-cart.
Heh.
> [1] I forget the details; it's been a long time since I read even
> the first book, and I don't think I got any further than that.
No good, apart from the neat ideas?
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
>> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
>> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
>> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
>> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
>> from using technology?
> There's Donald McQuinn, post-apocalyptic series
> _Warrior_, _Wanderer_, _Witch_,
> where technology, even (especially) reading, are forbidden.
> Various witches are more common than technologists, but still
> rare.
Definitely not what I had in mind. Which part of 'magic-wielding
majority' didn't you understand?
> The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based on
> secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the
> status quo...
That's confusing. If the church is the power, the rulers should be part
of it. If not, how come they rule anything, or the church being any
power at all?
> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for books to
buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
And if your answer to that is 'a second hand bookstore near you', then I
know you're an idiot.
Dan Goodman
>
> Tina Hall wrote:
> > In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of
> > non-magic people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches, and
> > magic itself, with suspicion, or looking down on them - sometimes
> > with the gifted people returning the attitude.
> >
> > How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
> > have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
> > traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with
> > the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or actively
> > hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them from using
> > technology?
>
> There's Donald McQuinn, post-apocalyptic series
>
> _Warrior_, Wanderer, Witch,
>
> where technology, even (especially) reading, are forbidden. Various
> witches are more common than technologists, but still rare.
>
> The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based on
> secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the status
> quo...
>
> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
Roger Zelazny has three books in which there are mirror-image magical
and technological worlds. _Jack of Shadows_ is the best. The others
are a duology: _Changeling_ and _Madwand_.
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
David Johnston
wrote:
>> The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based on
>> secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the
>> status quo...
>
>That's confusing. If the church is the power, the rulers should be part
>of it.
Doubtless they are in the sense that any worshipper is.
If not, how come they rule anything, or the church being any
>power at all?
They are secondary to the church's heirarchy in power.
>
>> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
>
>Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for books to
>buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
Inter-library loan.
William Marnoch
wrote:
>R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
>> <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>
>>> In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of
>>> non-magic people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches,
>>> and magic itself, with suspicion, or looking down on them -
>>> sometimes with the gifted people returning the attitude.
>>>
>>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
>>> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
>>> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
>>> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
>>> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
>>> from using technology?
>
>> The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit
>> further, actually: _everybody_ has magical ability.
>
>That alone is very interesting.
>
>> Everybody falls into one of the eight mysteries.
>
>What does that mean?
Each 'mystery' is a different sort of magic that a person can
specialise in (they don't chose, they're born that way). For example,
one mystery deals with healing, another with illusions etc.
>> The backstory involves there being a ninth mystery (technology)
>> for those without magic, and some sort of war/conflict[1] that
>> leads to its extinction.
>
>Cool idea.
>
>> Of course, the protagonist is born Dead but soft-hearted
>> individuals keep him alive long enough for him to upset the
>> apple-cart.
>
>Heh.
>
>> [1] I forget the details; it's been a long time since I read even
>> the first book, and I don't think I got any further than that.
>
>No good, apart from the neat ideas?
The ideas and world-building are probably the best part. I liked the
characters as well and it had a fairly audacious plot twist in the
third novel[1]. I wouldn't claim Weis & Hickman to be the best writers
of fantasy around but I enjoyed the series. Under no circumstances
ever read the sequel to the Darksword trilogy [2].
[1] <rot13-spoilers>Va gur guveq obbx gur snagnfl jbeyq trgf vainqrq
ol gur Nzrevpna Nezl. Juvpu vf abg fbzrguvat V hfhnyyl rkcrpg gb
unccra va cfrhqb-zrqvriny snagnfl obbxf.
[2] I seem to remember it had a dedication at the beginning 'This is
for all the readers who ask "What happened next?"'. The Dedication
could easily have continued "This will stop them ever asking that
again."
--
William Marnoch
wil...@voidhawk.com
http://www.voidhawk.com/ Film and Book reviews
Mike Swaim
> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have
> a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional
> role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the
> magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting
> them down or at least trying to prevent them from using technology?
There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where everybody has
a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set of base powers,
except for Wizards, who are strongly implied to have access to
technology in the first 6 books.
Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 trilogies have female protagonists, so
you'd hate them.
--
Mike Swaim
sw...@hal-pc.org
Will create applications for food.
http://www.hal-pc.org/~swaim
Gene Ward Smith
Mike Swaim wrote:
> There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where everybody has
> a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set of base powers,
> except for Wizards, who are strongly implied to have access to
> technology in the first 6 books.
Only a few people have powers, which is why the rest get kicked around.
pma...@hotmail.com
Tina Hall wrote:
> Pmac360 <pma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
from using technology?
> > There's Donald McQuinn, post-apocalyptic series
>
> > _Warrior_, _Wanderer_, _Witch_,
>
> > where technology, even (especially) reading, are forbidden.
> > Various witches are more common than technologists, but still
> > rare.
>
> Definitely not what I had in mind. Which part of 'magic-wielding
> majority' didn't you understand?
Jeez, it's a newsgroup, not a doctoral thesis. It was the closest I
could think of at the time!
> > The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based on
> > secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the
> > status quo...
>
> That's confusing. If the church is the power, the rulers should be part
> of it. If not, how come they rule anything, or the church being any
> power at all?
Sorry, a better term is 'authority,' not power. Even 500 years
post-apocalypse, technology is remembered in a very negative light.
The church makes sure it stays that way, partly in genuine fear of a
repeat and partly to maintain its own status.
Unfortunately, McQuinn chickens out in the last book, which turns into
an "America from the Ashes" scenario. The rare post-apocalyptic tale
that is not "America from the Ashes" is more interesting.
Still McQuinn is a _much_ better author than Weiss/Hickman or Piers
Anthony, who each have managed to redefine "Hack" in their own way.
> > It's out of print, but easy to find used.
>
> Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for books to
> buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
>
> And if your answer to that is 'a second hand bookstore near you', then I
> know you're an idiot.
I was thinking of amazon and its competitors, which is how I managed to
"remember" the author's name. (I was thinking MacDonald, not McQuinn.)
Nancy Lebovitz
Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>Pmac360 <pma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
>
>Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for books to
>buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
>
IIRC, addall.com includes German bookstores.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Duke of URL
Girl Genius is written by Professors Phil & Kaja Foglio of TPU, with
drawings by Prof P Foglio.
--
Cliologist, Philanthropologist, Prothonotary Wibbler,
Paleoconservative, Surface Warrior Squid; You can't break even, You
can't win, You can't quit the game.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
>> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
>> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
>> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
>> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
>> from using technology?
> There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where
> everybody has a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set
> of base powers,
Sounds neat. What base powers are those?
> except for Wizards, who are strongly implied to have access to
> technology in the first 6 books.
There are only six of a series without end, or is that changed/turns out
to be not true later?
> Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 trilogies have female protagonists,
> so you'd hate them.
What's that got to do with the question?
Tina Hall
> Tina...@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>> R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
>>> <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>>>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How
>>>> many have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in
>>>> the traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate)
>>>> wizards, with the magic-wielding majority looking at them
>>>> sideways, or actively hunting them down or at least trying to
>>>> prevent them from using technology?
>>
>>> The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit
>>> further, actually: _everybody_ has magical ability.
>>
>> That alone is very interesting.
>>
>>> Everybody falls into one of the eight mysteries.
>>
>> What does that mean?
> Each 'mystery' is a different sort of magic that a person can
> specialise in (they don't chose, they're born that way). For
> example, one mystery deals with healing, another with illusions
> etc.
I like that. I've got something similar in the Fantasy story, it's just
that there each folk has their own specialized magic (healing, hiding,
death/life, confusion/deception,...), though some things overlap (still
done differently) and one folk is more or less a 'misc', and they can
all do common stuff in one way or another, with more or less skill.
I take it that in the Darksword world, it's a strict 'one person one
specific talent, no varying/other uses'?
>>> [1] I forget the details; it's been a long time since I read
>>> even the first book, and I don't think I got any further than
>>> that.
>>
>> No good, apart from the neat ideas?
> The ideas and world-building are probably the best part. I liked
> the characters as well and it had a fairly audacious plot twist
> in the third novel[1]. I wouldn't claim Weis & Hickman to be the
> best writers of fantasy around but I enjoyed the series. Under no
> circumstances ever read the sequel to the Darksword trilogy [2].
I've seen some Weiss&Hickman stuff in 'my' bookstore, and wondered
whether to touch it. The books seem to match the size-requirement, at
least (nicely thick). A friend once mentioned the authors in context of
Dragonlance stories, afair. That's pretty much all I know.
This thread wasn't meant as hunting for recommendations, but this has
moved me to have another look at the books on the shelf, at least.
> [1] <rot13-spoilers>Va gur guveq obbx gur snagnfl jbeyq trgf
> vainqrq ol gur Nzrevpna Nezl. Juvpu vf abg fbzrguvat V hfhnyyl
> rkcrpg gb unccra va cfrhqb-zrqvriny snagnfl obbxf.
LOL. I wouldn't expect that, either.
> [2] I seem to remember it had a dedication at the beginning 'This
> is for all the readers who ask "What happened next?"'. The
> Dedication could easily have continued "This will stop them ever
> asking that again."
Heh.
Tina Hall
>> Definitely not what I had in mind. Which part of 'magic-wielding
>> majority' didn't you understand?
> Jeez, it's a newsgroup, not a doctoral thesis.
You replied way off the actual question. Which leaves the question why
you bothered at all.
> It was the closest I could think of at the time!
"Where can I buy some milk?" - "There's water in the Ihme." Not very
useful, and better kept to yourself, or if you want to talk about it,
make your own thread. It's a newsgroup, people make up their own posts
all the time.
>>> The church is the power in the land, a matriarchal order based
>>> on secrets of the past. Various rulers are not happy with the
>>> status quo...
>>
>> That's confusing. If the church is the power, the rulers should
>> be part of it. If not, how come they rule anything, or the
>> church being any power at all?
> Sorry, a better term is 'authority,' not power. Even 500 years
> post-apocalypse, technology is remembered in a very negative
> light. The church makes sure it stays that way, partly in genuine
> fear of a repeat and partly to maintain its own status.
Ok.
> Unfortunately, McQuinn chickens out in the last book, which turns
> into an "America from the Ashes" scenario. The rare
> post-apocalyptic tale that is not "America from the Ashes" is
> more interesting.
I would agree to that.
> Still McQuinn is a _much_ better author than Weiss/Hickman or
> Piers Anthony, who each have managed to redefine "Hack" in their
> own way.
That is subject to individual opinion. Not having read any of them yet,
the Weiss/Hickman suggestion sounds a lot more interesting.
>>> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
>>
>> Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for
>> books to buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
>>
>> And if your answer to that is 'a second hand bookstore near
>> you', then I know you're an idiot.
> I was thinking of amazon and its competitors, which is how I
> managed to "remember" the author's name. (I was thinking
> MacDonald, not McQuinn.)
Anything involving internet is not at all 'easy'.
Thomas Lindgren
pma...@hotmail.com writes:
> Tina Hall wrote:
>
> > Definitely not what I had in mind. Which part of 'magic-wielding
> > majority' didn't you understand?
>
> Jeez, it's a newsgroup, not a doctoral thesis. It was the closest I
> could think of at the time!
Please note that you have been trolled. Your future efforts are
better directed at other participants of this group.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Aaron Denney
> Pmac360 <pma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Tina Hall wrote:
>>> Pmac360 <pma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Definitely not what I had in mind. Which part of 'magic-wielding
>>> majority' didn't you understand?
>
>> Jeez, it's a newsgroup, not a doctoral thesis.
>
> You replied way off the actual question. Which leaves the question why
> you bothered at all.
Because it could still be valuable (to other people, if not you) even
were it not an exact match.
>> It was the closest I could think of at the time!
>
> "Where can I buy some milk?" - "There's water in the Ihme." Not very
> useful, and better kept to yourself, or if you want to talk about it,
> make your own thread. It's a newsgroup, people make up their own posts
> all the time.
Not very useful to you. As you say, it is a newsgroup, with a large
variety of people. I found the post interesting.
--
Aaron Denney
-><-
Mike Swaim
> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote:
>
> >> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
> >> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
> >> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
> >> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
> >> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
> >> from using technology?
>
> > There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where
> > everybody has a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set
> > of base powers,
>
> Sounds neat. What base powers are those?
Here's the list from my copy of "King's Blood Four."
Armiger Flying
Demon Mind Reading
Elator Teleportation
Tragamor Telekinesis
Seer Predict the Future
Sentinel Firemaking
Sorcerer Storing Power
Healer Healing
Ruler Beguilement
Shifter Metamorph
Necromancer Animate the Dead
And there's a separate group,
Immutable Mutes the powers of the others.
> There are only six of a series without end, or is that changed/turns
> out to be not true later?
There are 3 trilogies.
The numbered books (Kings Blood 4, Necromancer 9, Wizard's 11) about
Peter, who's in school when the series starts.
The Mavin Manyshaped trilogy, which take her beyond the lands of the
True Game to see other settlements in the world. (She's both competent,
and fairly ruthless.)
The Jinian trilogy, which wraps things up. Jinian's a young wizard
who can talk to animals. Jinian ends up on a quest to heal the world.
> > Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 trilogies have female protagonists,
> > so you'd hate them.
>
> What's that got to do with the question?
Here, read this. You'll hate it.
Ken Vale
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:58:00 GMT+1, Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>
>>In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of non-magic
>>people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches, and magic itself,
>>with suspicion, or looking down on them - sometimes with the gifted
>>people returning the attitude.
>>
>>How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many have a
>>few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the traditional role of
>>cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards, with the magic-wielding
>>majority looking at them sideways, or actively hunting them down or at
>>least trying to prevent them from using technology?
>
>
> The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit further,
> actually: _everybody_ has magical ability. Everybody falls into one of
> the eight mysteries. (Except for a few babies born without magical
> abilities at all, who are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require
> the capitalization of that term.)
>
> The backstory involves there being a ninth mystery (technology) for those
> without magic, and some sort of war/conflict[1] that leads to its extinction.
No the Nith mystery (technology) did have people with magic, it was just
magic that amplified standard technological items. Because of the wars
(and the use of some rather nasty magic+tech WMD) this mystery was
renamed "Death" (even though there were people that really were "Dead"
who had no choice but to use the non-magic technology). The people in
the hidden village were very capable of magic, they just didn't have the
"energy" to do much with it. The main character has no magic ("Dead")
and makes one of those nasty WMDs.
Ken
Ken Vale
Well in the RPG they wrote for it they talk about this a bit, it seems
that everyone has a bit of talent in each of the different areas with
one area which they are powerful in. There are some variations in these
power levels. Certain "Archtypes" were much better than others. There
was no distinction between skill and power(1) in that game. I rather
think it was something they never bothered to flesh out as it did not
impact the story they were telling (The Fire Guys Kick Ass, The Weather
Guys can fly and zap things, the Earth guys can make plants grow and
heal people, etc)
Ken
(1) Not from that game but a good example of this is Telekinesis, if you
have lots of skill and no power you can flip the light switch from
across the room, if you have tons of power and no skill you can crush
the wall the light switch is on from down the block, but you can't for
the life of you flip the switch even of you are right next to it without
causing massive damage. I know ideally you want both but that isn't how
the real world works.
William Marnoch
wrote:
>William Marnoch <wjma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In the Darksword world most people have one particular magical talent
they're good at, but they do have some ability to use simple magic
from other mysteries. For example, the Mystery of Air allows (among
other things) the user to manipulate air to allow themselves to fly,
or to levitate objects. Most people in the world have enough ability
to fly themselves (walking on the ground is unusual in this world),
but only someone born into the Mystery of Air can use it to lift heavy
objects.
>>>> [1] I forget the details; it's been a long time since I read
>>>> even the first book, and I don't think I got any further than
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> No good, apart from the neat ideas?
>
>> The ideas and world-building are probably the best part. I liked
>> the characters as well and it had a fairly audacious plot twist
>> in the third novel[1]. I wouldn't claim Weis & Hickman to be the
>> best writers of fantasy around but I enjoyed the series. Under no
>> circumstances ever read the sequel to the Darksword trilogy [2].
>
>I've seen some Weiss&Hickman stuff in 'my' bookstore, and wondered
>whether to touch it. The books seem to match the size-requirement, at
>least (nicely thick). A friend once mentioned the authors in context of
>Dragonlance stories, afair. That's pretty much all I know.
They are most famous for writing the Dragonlance RPG tie-in novels,
which is unfortunate as they are not their best books. What they do
best is inventive world-building, and they tend to have quite good
characters. The Dragonlance books lack the inventive world-building
and they wrote them at the beginning of the career so the overall
writing quality is quite poor.
Best books by them are The Darksword Trilogy and The Death Gate Cycle.
The Arabian-themed Rose Of The Prophet Trilogy wasn't too bad either,
although the main characters in that irritated me a lot.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>> Pmac360 <pma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's out of print, but easy to find used.
>>
>> Oh? Where would I easily find one, then, if I had asked for
>> books to buy, instead of wondering how often the idea turns up?
>>
> Bookfinder.com.
Thanks, I'll put that in a file to look at it later.
> IIRC, addall.com includes German bookstores.
That would indeed be more convenient to order books from, I guess.
Does either of them have exceprts of books, like the first page? Or do
you know a place where I can find such? (The one time I looked for that
for a specific book, I didn't find anything.)
pma...@hotmail.com
amazon has excerpts like you describe. It also has quotation lookup
for books where the publisher gives them permission. It's a really
nice service.
And I second nancy's recommendation of bookfinder. It does a good job
of finding the best price. (If you are buying a textbook, it's
absolutely critical. The International Edition is usually 1/3 or 1/2
the American price.)
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
>>> Tina Hall wrote:
>>> There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where
>>> everybody has a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set
>>> of base powers,
>>
>> Sounds neat. What base powers are those?
> Here's the list from my copy of "King's Blood Four."
<snip list>
Definitely interesting. Does 'based on' mean that several mix, or what
exactly?
> And there's a separate group,
> Immutable Mutes the powers of the others.
<digressing> Odd, how that never enters my mind when I make up magic.
It's not as if I haven't run across the concept in fiction.
>> There are only six of a series without end, or is that
>> changed/turns out to be not true later?
> There are 3 trilogies.
> The numbered books (Kings Blood 4, Necromancer 9, Wizard's 11)
> about Peter, who's in school when the series starts.
That thing with the numbers is confusing. Are the numbers in the titles,
or where? (Three trilogies doesn't reach '11'.)
> The Mavin Manyshaped trilogy, which take her beyond the lands
> of the True Game to see other settlements in the world. (She's
> both competent, and fairly ruthless.)
<suspicious> Are you trying to make the character appealing to me?
That's better not attempted. </suspicious>
The magic itself looks interesting. For the rest, if I ever learn where
or how to find excerpts of books, I'll look at one or more from these.
>>> Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 trilogies have female protagonists,
>>> so you'd hate them.
>>
>> What's that got to do with the question?
> Here, read this. You'll hate it.
Heh. Looks like a game of 'spot the flaw in this reasoning'. :)
But I'm tired of people attempting to say what I'd like or not. Without
a lucky hit equal to winning in the lottery, it's not going to come
anyhwere near the truth.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
<snip>
>> I take it that in the Darksword world, it's a strict 'one person
>> one specific talent, no varying/other uses'?
> Well in the RPG they wrote for it they talk about this a bit, it
> seems that everyone has a bit of talent in each of the different
> areas with one area which they are powerful in. There are some
> variations in these power levels. Certain "Archtypes" were much
> better than others. There was no distinction between skill and
> power(1) in that game.
What's it like in the books, though?
> I rather think it was something they never bothered to flesh out as it
> did not impact the story they were telling (The Fire Guys Kick Ass,
> The Weather Guys can fly and zap things, the Earth guys can make
> plants grow and heal people, etc)
It's interesting that the same basics (Fire, Earth, Weather,... turns up
often enough) can be used in all sorts of different ways and
interpretations. (I very much like common themes done differently.) I'd
place the healing with the Earth guys, too, but not the make plants grow
(I actually split that up and placed the halves with two other... types,
or whatever you want to call it).
> (1) Not from that game but a good example of this is Telekinesis,
> if you have lots of skill and no power you can flip the light
> switch from across the room, if you have tons of power and no
> skill you can crush the wall the light switch is on from down the
> block, but you can't for the life of you flip the switch even of
> you are right next to it without causing massive damage. I know
> ideally you want both but that isn't how the real world works.
Heh. For other-dimenional values of 'real world'.
Tina Hall
<snip>
>> I take it that in the Darksword world, it's a strict 'one person
>> one specific talent, no varying/other uses'?
> In the Darksword world most people have one particular magical
> talent they're good at, but they do have some ability to use
> simple magic from other mysteries.
Sounds ever nicer.
> For example, the Mystery of Air allows (among other things) the user
> to manipulate air to allow themselves to fly, or to levitate objects.
Obviously. :)
Hm...
Why are they called 'Mysteries'?
> Most people in the world have enough ability to fly themselves
> (walking on the ground is unusual in this world), but only someone
> born into the Mystery of Air can use it to lift heavy objects.
Cool. Both bits. Still sounds ever better.
>> I've seen some Weiss&Hickman stuff in 'my' bookstore, and
>> wondered whether to touch it. The books seem to match the
>> size-requirement, at least (nicely thick). A friend once
>> mentioned the authors in context of Dragonlance stories, afair.
>> That's pretty much all I know.
> They are most famous for writing the Dragonlance RPG tie-in
> novels, which is unfortunate as they are not their best books.
> What they do best is inventive world-building, and they tend to
> have quite good characters. The Dragonlance books lack the
> inventive world-building and they wrote them at the beginning of
> the career so the overall writing quality is quite poor.
Ok. Thanks for filling me in on that. It's encouraging, too. (It's not
going to change my pre-existing lack of urge to look at Dragonlance, but
sounds promising for other books by them.)
> Best books by them are The Darksword Trilogy and The Death Gate
> Cycle. The Arabian-themed Rose Of The Prophet Trilogy wasn't too
> bad either, although the main characters in that irritated me a
> lot.
If I now knew what irritates you, this would serve well as 'I better not
touch them' or 'Get at once!'. <g>
As it is, I'll try to keep it in mind (or at least a file), and look at
what the bookstore has to offer.
rja.ca...@excite.com
Tina Hall wrote:
> R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
> > <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>
> >> In traditional fantasy, as far as I know, there are lots of
> >> non-magic people, eying those few magicians, wizards, witches,
> >> and magic itself, with suspicion, or looking down on them -
> >> sometimes with the gifted people returning the attitude.
> >>
> >> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How many
> >> have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in the
> >> traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate) wizards,
> >> with the magic-wielding majority looking at them sideways, or
> >> actively hunting them down or at least trying to prevent them
> >> from using technology?
Of course Harry Potter's world has a wizard community which is
self-isolated from most Muggles (non-wizard/witch humans), who most
wizards and witches don't understand (for instance how we dress), but
which does produce Squibs - citizens of the magic community who do not
have magic. Muggles are often victims of pranks or worse, and I
suppose Squibs are equally liable to be although enchanted
personal-safety devices are possible, so there's certainly abuse.
> > The 'Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman carry this idea a bit
> > further, actually: _everybody_ has magical ability.
>
> That alone is very interesting.
>
> > Everybody falls into one of the eight mysteries.
>
> What does that mean?
>
> > (Except for a few babies born without magical abilities at all, who
> > are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require the capitalization
> > of that term.)
>
> Ow. Not a friendly world, I suppose.
Of course this happens sometimes in our world. Cystic fibrosis, for
instance - well, nowadays you can hope to graduate, which I believe you
couldn't before, but I'm not sure how it goes after that.
In a magic world you'd expect to be able to cure anything, but
evidently it doesn't work like that in this story - or else no one much
wants to take the trouble. That perhaps looks back to customs such as
in Sparta where crippled infants were killed very early.
Mike Swaim
> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote:
> >> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
> >>> Tina Hall wrote:
>
> >>> There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where
> >>> everybody has a magic/psionic power that's based on a small set
> >>> of base powers,
> > >
> >> Sounds neat. What base powers are those?
>
> > Here's the list from my copy of "King's Blood Four."
>
> <snip list>
>
> Definitely interesting. Does 'based on' mean that several mix, or
> what exactly?
Someone with the powers of a King and a Sorcerer gets a new name.
> > And there's a separate group,
> > Immutable Mutes the powers of the others.
>
> <digressing> Odd, how that never enters my mind when I make up magic.
> It's not as if I haven't run across the concept in fiction.
The entity that gave the others their powers thought that it was a
good idea to also have a group that they couldn't push around.
> > There are 3 trilogies.
> > The numbered books (Kings Blood 4, Necromancer 9, Wizard's 11)
> > about Peter, who's in school when the series starts.
>
> That thing with the numbers is confusing. Are the numbers in the
> titles, or where? (Three trilogies doesn't reach '11'.)
In the titles.
> > The Mavin Manyshaped trilogy, which take her beyond the lands
> > of the True Game to see other settlements in the world. (She's
> > both competent, and fairly ruthless.)
>
> <suspicious> Are you trying to make the character appealing to me?
> That's better not attempted. </suspicious>
Don't care.
> The magic itself looks interesting. For the rest, if I ever learn
> where or how to find excerpts of books, I'll look at one or more from
> these.
The first three were reprinted in a single volume a few years ago.
You can probably order it from your local bookstore.
rja.ca...@excite.com
Now this reminds me of Phil Foglio's _Girl Genius_ comic, now being
released online three pages a week, quite a lot, as well as sold in
book volumes. I'm not sure if that world has magic to speak of
(there's a vocational vampire killer character but she may just be
nuts), but it does have "mad scientists" - people born with "The Spark"
which apparently causes them to get very excited and inventive when
they look at technology stuff (including biotechnology which can be
very nasty) and also megalomaniacal and rather inhumane. Kind of like
Leonardo da Vinci inventing hideous fanciful death machines. And their
speech bubbles and the lettering go ragged.
Some people who have this are in the right place to make themselves
warlords, small or great. Others suffer, especially if they only have
a small Spark, and may be enslaved by others. The "Girl Genius" is a
rare female Spark... specifically rare in that she's still alive, which
is unusual not because the Spark necessarily is dangerous unless an
experiment goes wrong on you, but because the society (mock Renaissance
Europe, roughly) is tough for women as well as for Sparks who don't
stand up for themselves. She's also heir to something fairly special.
Nix
> William Marnoch <wjma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> For example, the Mystery of Air allows (among other things) the user
>> to manipulate air to allow themselves to fly, or to levitate objects.
>
> Obviously. :)
>
> Hm...
>
> Why are they called 'Mysteries'?
Etymology; it's very close to some archaic uses of the word, and so
plays nicely on the English ear. (It's not identical in meaning, but
when was this sort of thing ever precise?)
See, e.g., <http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mystery>.
--
`"Gun-wielding recluse gunned down by local police" isn't the epitaph
I want. I am hoping for "Witnesses reported the sound up to two hundred
kilometers away" or "Last body part finally located".' --- James Nicoll
Ken Vale
> Ken Vale <k3n...@r0g3r5.com> wrote:
>
>>Tina Hall wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>I take it that in the Darksword world, it's a strict 'one person
>>>one specific talent, no varying/other uses'?
>
>
>>Well in the RPG they wrote for it they talk about this a bit, it
>>seems that everyone has a bit of talent in each of the different
>>areas with one area which they are powerful in. There are some
>>variations in these power levels. Certain "Archtypes" were much
>>better than others. There was no distinction between skill and
>>power(1) in that game.
>
>
> What's it like in the books, though?
They wrote both the books and the RPG, so it is the same, they just
added details to the RPG that they seem to have glossed over in the book
(ie we don't have character interaction with the following archtypes so
we will generalize them, gee now that we are writting the RPG I guess we
need to detail them).
>
>
>>I rather think it was something they never bothered to flesh out as it
>>did not impact the story they were telling (The Fire Guys Kick Ass,
>>The Weather Guys can fly and zap things, the Earth guys can make
>>plants grow and heal people, etc)
>
>
> It's interesting that the same basics (Fire, Earth, Weather,... turns up
> often enough) can be used in all sorts of different ways and
> interpretations. (I very much like common themes done differently.) I'd
> place the healing with the Earth guys, too, but not the make plants grow
> (I actually split that up and placed the halves with two other... types,
> or whatever you want to call it).
>
>
>>(1) Not from that game but a good example of this is Telekinesis,
>>if you have lots of skill and no power you can flip the light
>>switch from across the room, if you have tons of power and no
>>skill you can crush the wall the light switch is on from down the
>>block, but you can't for the life of you flip the switch even of
>>you are right next to it without causing massive damage. I know
>>ideally you want both but that isn't how the real world works.
>
>
> Heh. For other-dimenional values of 'real world'.
Yeah, yeah, you know what I meant.
Ken
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Does either of them have exceprts of books, like the first page?
>> Or do you know a place where I can find such? (The one time I
>> looked for that for a specific book, I didn't find anything.)
> amazon has excerpts like you describe.
Not that I found. Where are they hidden?
> It also has quotation lookup for books where the publisher gives them
> permission. It's a really nice service.
The one time I looked at amazon, it wasn't nice at all. Completely
useless, concerning the things I was looking for, is more like it.
Btw. Is there a book-recommendation mechanism to be found somewhere that
lets you enter and rate more than one title, and doesn't throw out
completely unrelated titles about who-knows-what for you to rate
instead, without then coming up with any useful result?
> And I second nancy's recommendation of bookfinder. It does a
> good job of finding the best price.
Didn't know that that's what it's for.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
>>> Tina Hall wrote:
>>>>> There's the King's Blood series by Sharri Tepper, where
>>>>> everybody has a magic/psionic power that's based on a small
>>>>> set of base powers,
>>>>
>>>> Sounds neat. What base powers are those?
>>
>>> Here's the list from my copy of "King's Blood Four."
>>
>> <snip list>
>>
>> Definitely interesting. Does 'based on' mean that several mix,
>> or what exactly?
> Someone with the powers of a King and a Sorcerer gets a new
> name.
Huh?
<g>
That might make sense to someone familiar with the work, but not to me.
It sounds amusing, though.
>>> And there's a separate group,
>>> Immutable Mutes the powers of the others.
>>
>> <digressing> Odd, how that never enters my mind when I make up
>> magic. It's not as if I haven't run across the concept in
>> fiction.
> The entity that gave the others their powers thought that it
> was a good idea to also have a group that they couldn't push
> around.
Wouldn't that group then just push the others around? And if everyone
has powers, isn't just everyone pushing everyone around?
>>> There are 3 trilogies.
>>> The numbered books (Kings Blood 4, Necromancer 9, Wizard's
>>> 11) about Peter, who's in school when the series starts.
>>
>> That thing with the numbers is confusing. Are the numbers in the
>> titles, or where? (Three trilogies doesn't reach '11'.)
> In the titles.
That's some unusual titles, then. I suppose the numbers have some
relevance in the text, though.
>>> The Mavin Manyshaped trilogy, which take her beyond the lands
>>> of the True Game to see other settlements in the world. (She's
>>> both competent, and fairly ruthless.)
>>
>> <suspicious> Are you trying to make the character appealing to
>> me? That's better not attempted. </suspicious>
> Don't care.
Makes no sense that you said anything about it, then.
Besides, it's not female characters that I object to as such, but stupid
ones, and most of all, nothing _but_ a single female viewpoint. What I
like has several tight third viewpoints, alternating. A few female ones
thrown in the mix can be ok, depending on what they're like and what
their purpose is (means, if they're supposed to be awful people, me
disliking them is just fine).
>> The magic itself looks interesting. For the rest, if I ever
>> learn where or how to find excerpts of books, I'll look at one
>> or more from these.
> The first three were reprinted in a single volume a few years
> ago. You can probably order it from your local bookstore.
Perhaps, but I'll not do that blind.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Ken Vale <k3n...@r0g3r5.com> wrote:
>>> Tina Hall wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> I take it that in the Darksword world, it's a strict 'one
>>>> person one specific talent, no varying/other uses'?
>>
>>
>>> Well in the RPG they wrote for it they talk about this a bit,
>>> it seems that everyone has a bit of talent in each of the
>>> different areas with one area which they are powerful in. There
>>> are some variations in these power levels. Certain "Archtypes"
>>> were much better than others. There was no distinction between
>>> skill and power(1) in that game.
>>
>>
>> What's it like in the books, though?
> They wrote both the books and the RPG, so it is the same,
Not in my mind. An RPG is an entirely different merchandise, and
shouldn't have to be known to understand the books, which in turn means
it hasn't any relevance; the books should stand on their own. It's also
all I'm interested in, whatever's in the RPG only doesn't count as far
as I am concerned.
>>> Telekinesis, if you have lots of skill and no power you can
>>> flip the light switch from across the room, if you have tons of
>>> power and no skill you can crush the wall the light switch is
>>> on from down the block, but you can't for the life of you flip
>>> the switch even of you are right next to it without causing
>>> massive damage. I know ideally you want both but that isn't how
>>> the real world works.
>>
>> Heh. For other-dimenional values of 'real world'.
> Yeah, yeah, you know what I meant.
Hey, I wasn't objecting. I thought your line there at the end was funny.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
>>> <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>>>> How many works are there with the proportions reversed? How
>>>> many have a few odd scientists (inventors of technology) in
>>>> the traditional role of cast out (or otherwise separate)
>>>> wizards, with the magic-wielding majority looking at them
>>>> sideways, or actively hunting them down or at least trying to
>>>> prevent them from using technology?
> Of course Harry Potter's world
Does, by what I've heard of it, not qualify; the proportions are wrong,
for a start.
['Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman]
>>> (Except for a few babies born without magical abilities at all,
>>> who are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require the
>>> capitalization of that term.)
>>
>> Ow. Not a friendly world, I suppose.
> Of course this happens sometimes in our world. Cystic fibrosis,
> for instance - well, nowadays you can hope to graduate, which I
> believe you couldn't before, but I'm not sure how it goes after
> that.
I took it to mean that the babies are disposed of instead of dying by
natural cause. Npt that there aren't example of that in the real world,
too, like (if that's not just a rumour), girls in China.
> In a magic world you'd expect to be able to cure anything, but
> evidently it doesn't work like that in this story - or else no
> one much wants to take the trouble.
Inserting magic ability seems like quite an unusual cure, anyway.
Someone born without magic, not even latent ability, swallowing a pill
and sprouting Talent, I mean. Somehow, that's not something that'd enter
my mind as an option. It'd be like people in the real world swallowing a
pill and sprouting wings as a result.
Are there any story where such happens/is possible? (With emphasis on
_no_ latent ability whatsoever.)
> That perhaps looks back to customs such as in Sparta where crippled
> infants were killed very early.
That's what I thought was happening in the story.
rja.ca...@excite.com
> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote:
> >> R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
>
> ['Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman]
> >>> (Except for a few babies born without magical abilities at all,
> >>> who are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require the
> >>> capitalization of that term.)
> >>
> >> Ow. Not a friendly world, I suppose.
>
> > Of course this happens sometimes in our world. Cystic fibrosis,
> > for instance - well, nowadays you can hope to graduate, which I
> > believe you couldn't before, but I'm not sure how it goes after
> > that.
>
> I took it to mean that the babies are disposed of instead of dying by
> natural cause. Npt that there aren't example of that in the real world,
> too, like (if that's not just a rumour), girls in China.
RBJ was coy, so I guessed; I'm wrong, you're right, according to
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/f&sf/88-11.html - the kids are
starved to death. I don't think I want to know what age.
> > In a magic world you'd expect to be able to cure anything, but
> > evidently it doesn't work like that in this story - or else no
> > one much wants to take the trouble.
>
> Inserting magic ability seems like quite an unusual cure, anyway.
> Someone born without magic, not even latent ability, swallowing a pill
> and sprouting Talent, I mean. Somehow, that's not something that'd enter
> my mind as an option. It'd be like people in the real world swallowing a
> pill and sprouting wings as a result.
>
> Are there any story where such happens/is possible? (With emphasis on
> _no_ latent ability whatsoever.)
Wellll, there's Gilbert & Sullivan's _Iolanthe_, but it's a spoiler for
the end of the story so I'll use ROT13 codes.
ng gur pyvznk bs gur fgbel n pbzzhavgl bs srznyr snvevrf nyy zneel
zbegny uhznaf, jub ner fbzrubj pbairegrq vagb snvevrf. ng yrnfg gurl
trg yvggyr jvatf ba gurve onpxf.
Apart from that, does conjuring up a demon to give you magical powers,
qualify, if anyone can do it? In that case I think the _Ghost Rider_
movie based on 1970s comicbooks could count. I'm not sure just what
they've done with the story. In many of these, it isn't particularly
difficult to summon up the Devil, he's listening and eager for
opportunities. So no special abilities are required. For that matter,
Isaac Asimov wrote several stories about that sort of pact with the
Devil.
Mike Swaim
> Mike Swaim <sw...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
> >> Definitely interesting. Does 'based on' mean that several mix,
> >> or what exactly?
>
> > Someone with the powers of a King and a Sorcerer gets a new
> > name.
>
> Huh?
Someone with the powers of a King and a Sorcerer is called something
else. Passing mention is made of books of etiquette that give names for
most of the permutations.
> >>> And there's a separate group,
> >>> Immutable Mutes the powers of the others.
> > >
> >> <digressing> Odd, how that never enters my mind when I make up
> >> magic. It's not as if I haven't run across the concept in
> >> fiction.
>
> > The entity that gave the others their powers thought that it
> > was a good idea to also have a group that they couldn't push
> > around.
>
> Wouldn't that group then just push the others around?
Nope. Their ability takes away the advantages others have. It doesn't
give them an advantage over others.
> And if everyone
> has powers, isn't just everyone pushing everyone around?
Not all powers are equal in all situations. Also, the danger isn't
individuals pushing each other around. It's armies.
> > The first three were reprinted in a single volume a few years
> > ago. You can probably order it from your local bookstore.
>
> Perhaps, but I'll not do that blind.
OK. Try a library.
Gene Ward Smith
Mike Swaim wrote:
> Tina Hall wrote:
> > And if everyone
> > has powers, isn't just everyone pushing everyone around?
>
> Not all powers are equal in all situations. Also, the danger isn't
> individuals pushing each other around. It's armies.
To repeat: not everyone has any powers. In case that wasn't clear, not
everyone has any powers.
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> Tina Hall wrote:
>>>> R Bradford Jones <use...@brad.kazrak.com> wrote:
>> ['Darksword' books by Weis & Hickman]
>>>>> (Except for a few babies born without magical abilities at
>>>>> all, who are referred to as Dead and soon no longer require
>>>>> the capitalization of that term.)
>>>>
>>>> Ow. Not a friendly world, I suppose.
>>
>>> Of course this happens sometimes in our world. Cystic
>>> fibrosis, for instance - well, nowadays you can hope to
>>> graduate, which I believe you couldn't before, but I'm not sure
>>> how it goes after that.
>>
>> I took it to mean that the babies are disposed of instead of
>> dying by natural cause. Npt that there aren't example of that in
>> the real world, too, like (if that's not just a rumour), girls
>> in China.
> RBJ was coy, so I guessed; I'm wrong, you're right, according to
> http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/f&sf/88-11.html - the kids are
> starved to death. I don't think I want to know what age.
That's even more unpleasant than killing them directly, which would at
least be somewhat kinder.
But again, the real world has that, too. There's been something of that
sort all over the news here a while ago. Poor kid.
>>> In a magic world you'd expect to be able to cure anything, but
>>> evidently it doesn't work like that in this story - or else no
>>> one much wants to take the trouble.
>>
>> Inserting magic ability seems like quite an unusual cure,
>> anyway. Someone born without magic, not even latent ability,
>> swallowing a pill and sprouting Talent, I mean. Somehow, that's
>> not something that'd enter my mind as an option. It'd be like
>> people in the real world swallowing a pill and sprouting wings
>> as a result.
>>
>> Are there any story where such happens/is possible? (With
>> emphasis on _no_ latent ability whatsoever.)
> Wellll, there's Gilbert & Sullivan's _Iolanthe_, but it's a
> spoiler for the end of the story so I'll use ROT13 codes.
> ng gur pyvznk bs gur fgbel n pbzzhavgl bs srznyr snvevrf nyy
> zneel zbegny uhznaf, jub ner fbzrubj pbairegrq vagb snvevrf. ng
> yrnfg gurl trg yvggyr jvatf ba gurve onpxf.
Strange.
But I wasn't literal about the jvatf, and wondering about examples with
actual magical ability being inserted.
> Apart from that, does conjuring up a demon to give you magical
> powers, qualify, if anyone can do it?
Someone else conjures the demon for you? To conjure it, you'd need some
ability, no? Demon summoning seems to have a fixed chapter in wizards'
manuals, after all...
> In that case I think the _Ghost Rider_ movie based on 1970s comicbooks
> could count. I'm not sure just what they've done with the story. In
> many of these, it isn't particularly difficult to summon up the Devil,
> he's listening and eager for opportunities.
Heh.
> So no special abilities are required. For that matter, Isaac Asimov
> wrote several stories about that sort of pact with the Devil.
I guess that counts, though I wouldn't have put pacts with the devil in
the realm of common SF at all. They at least need their own subgenre.
rja.ca...@excite.com
> >>> In a magic world you'd expect to be able to cure anything, but
> >>> evidently it doesn't work like that in this story - or else no
> >>> one much wants to take the trouble.
> >>
> >> Inserting magic ability seems like quite an unusual cure,
> >> anyway. Someone born without magic, not even latent ability,
> >> swallowing a pill and sprouting Talent, I mean. Somehow, that's
> >> not something that'd enter my mind as an option. It'd be like
> >> people in the real world swallowing a pill and sprouting wings
> >> as a result.
> >>
> >> Are there any story where such happens/is possible? (With
> >> emphasis on _no_ latent ability whatsoever.)
>
> > Wellll, there's Gilbert & Sullivan's _Iolanthe_, but it's a
> > spoiler for the end of the story so I'll use ROT13 codes.
>
> > ng gur pyvznk bs gur fgbel n pbzzhavgl bs srznyr snvevrf nyy
> > zneel zbegny uhznaf, jub ner fbzrubj pbairegrq vagb snvevrf. ng
> > yrnfg gurl trg yvggyr jvatf ba gurve onpxf.
>
> Strange.
>
> But I wasn't literal about the jvatf, and wondering about examples with
> actual magical ability being inserted.
Well, I think you presume they had other "traditional" fairy powers,
such as shrinking down to sleep inside flowers, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolanthe offers a synopsis with spelling
mistakes, and a link to the entire text.
> > Apart from that, does conjuring up a demon to give you magical
> > powers, qualify, if anyone can do it?
>
> Someone else conjures the demon for you? To conjure it, you'd need some
> ability, no? Demon summoning seems to have a fixed chapter in wizards'
> manuals, after all...
>
> > In that case I think the _Ghost Rider_ movie based on 1970s comicbooks
> > could count. I'm not sure just what they've done with the story. In
> > many of these, it isn't particularly difficult to summon up the Devil,
> > he's listening and eager for opportunities.
>
> Heh.
Oh yeah. You know what they say, "speak of the Devil"...
> > So no special abilities are required. For that matter, Isaac Asimov
> > wrote several stories about that sort of pact with the Devil.
>
> I guess that counts, though I wouldn't have put pacts with the devil in
> the realm of common SF at all. They at least need their own subgenre.
> --
> To Hell with internet.
Oh, be careful what you wish for. That's gonna be /really/ slow
dialup. And you will /not/ be able to turn off the speaker. And if
you think you get spam /now/...
Christopher Adams
>
> Someone else conjures the demon for you? To conjure it, you'd need some
> ability, no? Demon summoning seems to have a fixed chapter in wizards'
> manuals, after all...
It depends on the ideas a writer is playing with. Stephen King's short stories
"Sometimes They Come Back" and "The Mangler" both involve the use of occult
ritual magic which anyone can pull off if they know what they're doing - and,
presumably, anyone without "learning difficulties" can follow instructions,
which is what it boils down to.
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
SERENITY - The Future Is Worth Fighting For
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> In that case I think the _Ghost Rider_ movie based on 1970s
>>> comicbooks could count. I'm not sure just what they've done
>>> with the story. In many of these, it isn't particularly
>>> difficult to summon up the Devil, he's listening and eager for
>>> opportunities.
>>
>> Heh.
> Oh yeah. You know what they say, "speak of the Devil"...
Yep (assuming the German saying starting the same way means the same).
There's a another saying here 'painting the devil on the wall', meaning
voicing possible unpleasant outcomes. (Normally preceeded by a 'do not'
as a reply to those.)
I know it's got nothing to do with SF (apart from the whole idea being
fantasy), but another comes to mind; the devil always shits on the
biggest heap. (Meaning should be obvious.) What others are there?
>> To Hell with internet.
> Oh, be careful what you wish for. That's gonna be /really/ slow
> dialup. And you will /not/ be able to turn off the speaker. And
> if you think you get spam /now/...
I don't get much spam 'now'. :) (As I don't use that access for email
downloading, not using the adresses I have created for posting, or even
checked them for at least a week...)
It's just tedious, and I leave it alone for anything but the reason I
got the access in the first place.
What's far more fun is that Magic Earth thing which seems to spiral to
center around the (tie in with the subject from above) the Evil Overlord
- as a fixture of the setting, not as something to be removed for a
happy ending. I still don't know what the plot is, but as the main
characters it's got a handful of ordinary people not figuring out the
obvious right away, acting on impulse, and getting themselves into
trouble (as in 'tangled up with the EL').
I'm ever more convinced that stupid characters are easy, and authors
just lazy/lack imagination.
I don't think I'd buy the thing if seen on the shelves or have it
recommended. Maybe I should try to sell it. <g>
rja.ca...@excite.com
Tina Hall wrote:
> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> > Tina Hall wrote:
> >> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >>> In that case I think the _Ghost Rider_ movie based on 1970s
> >>> comicbooks could count. I'm not sure just what they've done
> >>> with the story. In many of these, it isn't particularly
> >>> difficult to summon up the Devil, he's listening and eager for
> >>> opportunities.
> >>
> >> Heh.
>
> > Oh yeah. You know what they say, "speak of the Devil"...
>
> Yep (assuming the German saying starting the same way means the same).
>
> There's a another saying here 'painting the devil on the wall', meaning
> voicing possible unpleasant outcomes. (Normally preceeded by a 'do not'
> as a reply to those.)
>
> I know it's got nothing to do with SF (apart from the whole idea being
> fantasy), but another comes to mind; the devil always shits on the
> biggest heap. (Meaning should be obvious.) What others are there?
Devil slogans? I take it the "biggest heap" one means that troubles
come to people who already have troubles. I don't think that's
strictly true, but never mind.
The devil finds work for idle hands to do.
The devil quotes scripture.
The devil has all the best tunes.
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." B. Elzebub.
<snip remarks on Internet access in Hell>
> What's far more fun is that Magic Earth thing which seems to spiral to
> center around the (tie in with the subject from above) the Evil Overlord
> - as a fixture of the setting, not as something to be removed for a
> happy ending. I still don't know what the plot is, but as the main
> characters it's got a handful of ordinary people not figuring out the
> obvious right away, acting on impulse, and getting themselves into
> trouble (as in 'tangled up with the EL').
I'm not sure what you mean exactly - is EL the Evil Over-Lord? It's
been a little while, and I forgot what we were talking about.
I think there are a few stories anyway where the more you use a power,
the more you're in the power of the source of that power - even when
your whole project is to fight that power. Lessee... it's been a while
since I read the second "Thomas Covenant" series, but I think there the
only kind of magic that works any more is the evil magic. So you do it
but you don't like it and you pay for it later...
David Cowie
> The devil finds work for idle hands to do.
... and we still won't do it.
--
David Cowie
Containment Failure + 17573:37
Tina Hall
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>> Oh yeah. You know what they say, "speak of the Devil"...
>>
>> Yep (assuming the German saying starting the same way means the
>> same).
>>
>> There's a another saying here 'painting the devil on the wall',
>> meaning voicing possible unpleasant outcomes. (Normally
>> preceeded by a 'do not' as a reply to those.)
>>
>> I know it's got nothing to do with SF (apart from the whole idea
>> being fantasy), but another comes to mind; the devil always
>> shits on the biggest heap. (Meaning should be obvious.) What
>> others are there?
> Devil slogans?
Nice catchphrase for the subject. Sounds like the name of a company that
thinks up commercial slogans. (Maybe a company that only exists in an SF
story.)
> I take it the "biggest heap" one means that troubles come to people
> who already have troubles.
No, the reverse (funny, that); the richer get added to their riches.
> I don't think that's strictly true, but never mind.
Not all sayings are true. One from my grandmother (she had lots of
them), not about the devil, translated:
Who lies (also) deceives.
Who deceives (also) steals.
Who steals (also) sets fire to houses.
Doesn't sound all that true to me.
(In the original: Wer luegt, der truegt. Wer truegt, der stiehlt. Wer
stiehlt der steckt auch Haeuser an.)
> The devil finds work for idle hands to do.
That one is obvious, I think.
> The devil quotes scripture.
What does that mean?
> The devil has all the best tunes.
I think I've come across that one before, but can't make much of it.
> "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." B. Elzebub.
:) I like that one.
> <snip remarks on Internet access in Hell>
>> What's far more fun is that Magic Earth thing which seems to
>> spiral to center around the (tie in with the subject from above)
>> the Evil Overlord - as a fixture of the setting, not as
>> something to be removed for a happy ending. I still don't know
>> what the plot is, but as the main characters it's got a handful
>> of ordinary people not figuring out the obvious right away,
>> acting on impulse, and getting themselves into trouble (as in
>> 'tangled up with the EL').
> I'm not sure what you mean exactly - is EL the Evil Over-Lord?
Yes. Sorry. Didn't notice the misspelling until I nearly finished this
reply here. Let's stick with it, ok? Looks better than EO.
> It's been a little while, and I forgot what we were talking
> about.
I have no idea what we were talking about. Does that matter?
<glance up at the subject> Oh, that. Has to do with the thought I
expressed above even; everyone's got magic on that Magic Earth world,
and technology is outlawed at least within the influence of the Evil
Overlords.
> I think there are a few stories anyway where the more you use a
> power, the more you're in the power of the source of that power -
So far unrelated to what you quoted.
> even when your whole project is to fight that power.
That seems to hit the nail on the head.
Metaphorically anyway; power not seen as magic but as the one in power.
There's a non-hero [*], trying to come up with some plan, but it's
pretty hopeless, if not to say impossible. He got dragged along with the
less smart characters, not warning them for all the usual lame reasons.
He's even got some lame internal conflict. (Did I mention that I likely
wouldn't buy it if it was a book?)
[*] A type of character that some people might confuse for the hero of
the story, but, all in the name of realism (heh), there's no hero riding
in over the horizon to save the day. Instead, beyond the horizon there
are more Evil Overlords - and ladies, what with emanzipation and all -
one more nuts than another.
> Lessee...
> it's been a while since I read the second "Thomas Covenant"
> series, but I think there the only kind of magic that works any
> more is the evil magic. So you do it but you don't like it and
> you pay for it later...
Haven't finished the second Chronicles.
In the Magic Earth thing, magic is neutral. Like air. Breathing doesn't
make you bad or good, but shooting an airgun at people isn't very nice,
while first aid mouth-to-mouth <whatever you call it> is.
And the magic can be used in all sorts of ways. The ELs just have a
really great big lot more of it, plus the skill to use it and millenia
of experience with people trying to get rid of them[*]. As I wrote
above, it's pretty hopeless.
The trouble is, without knowing what the plot is, I don't know where the
story ends, either. But I don't like coming to the end of a story,
anyway.
[*] And no need to heed any Evil Overlord list, most if not all of it
doesn't even apply, but it did get me wondering how one would remove an
EL who does heed the list, thus that other post.
Nancy Lebovitz
Tina Hall <Tina...@kruemel.org> wrote:
>Rja.ca...@excite.com <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> The devil quotes scripture.
>
>What does that mean?
That's a short version--the complete version is something like "The
devil can quote Scripture to his profit". The idea is that just because
someone is quoting the Bible, that doesn't mean the argument is in
the spirit of the Bible.
I don't know how much that idea is used to discount sophistries and
how much it's used to ignore sound arguments.
>> The devil has all the best tunes.
>
>I think I've come across that one before, but can't make much of it.
It's from the Salvation Army, an charitable organization which (used to?)
raise money by playing music.
When they were criticized for using secular, disreputable tunes (those
were very innocent days), "the devil has all the best tunes" was the
answer.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Tina Hall
>> The devil finds work for idle hands to do.
> ... and we still won't do it.
Heh.
That tugs the memory of... something. It refuses to come out though. Are
there any similar phrases? (Perhaps German ones?)