Bad Signs
James Nicoll
Had an appallingly awful week (Made the mistake of saying
"Oh well, it can't get worse." which like putting a big lightning
rod on one's head and discussing the virtues of atheism in the
Vatican) and decided to to blow $7.99 on midn candy. I picked up
Bethke's latest _Rebel Moon_, which apparently has the most astoundingly
original plot about brave Lunar rebels fighting against a corrupt
Terran government. Normally, that would have made me avoid the
book but I'm counting on Bethke to do something original with
the meme.
That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
Some of mine:
Certain collaborations: Sterling and anybody. Drake and anybody. McCaffrey
and anybody. Gregory Benford writing in someone else's universe. A
glowing recomendation from Anne McCaffrey who must be the nicest
person in world, given how many clunkers her name appears on recommending
them. Yet Another Honourable Mercenary Book. Yet Another Colonists
Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
vs the Good Government novel*). Del Rey Discovery (except for one book
whose name escapes me: Outskirters Secret, I think). Any book by Drake
which might be a reworking of Greek Myth in the Slammerverse.
James Nicoll
*I wonder, could one base a career on taking the Standard SF Plots
and reversing them? Evil Rebels, Humans Meet the Galactic
Empire and turn out to be submorons comparatively, Backstabbing
Mercs bugger off at the first volley of shot and steal the
bags of gold on their way, a young boy thought to be a Mere
Poor Orphan turns out to *be* a MPO**, and so on...
** Heh. _Umi, the Boy who was Prince_ (I think) is an uplifting story
about a HAwaiian kid who turns out to be part of the royal family.
Standard kiddie fare, except for the note that adds that as soon as
Daddie the King died, one of the older kids had Umi snuffed toot sweet.
--
" The moral, if you're a scholar don't pick up beautiful babes on deserted
lanes at night. Real Moral, Chinese ghost stories have mostly been written
by scholars who have some pretty strange fantasies about women."
Brian David Phillips
Joseph Poulin
James Nicoll (jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: Bethke's latest _Rebel Moon_, which apparently has the most astoundingly
: original plot about brave Lunar rebels fighting against a corrupt
: Terran government. Normally, that would have made me avoid the
: book but I'm counting on Bethke to do something original with
: the meme.
: That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
: indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
If that's the book I'm thinking of, I put it back on the shelf as
soon as I found out the main character was named '(something) Starkiller'.
:)
: them. Yet Another Honourable Mercenary Book. Yet Another Colonists
: Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
: vs the Good Government novel*). Del Rey Discovery (except for one book
About the CVsTEG book, have you tried reading 'A Small Colonial
War' by Robert Frezza? Admittedly, the theme is a little tired, but IMHO
Frezza does a good job with it. It isn't nearly as repetitive as reading
yet another book in the 'General' or 'Falkenberg's Legion' series.
Joe
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> Had an appallingly awful week (Made the mistake of saying
>"Oh well, it can't get worse." which like putting a big lightning
>rod on one's head and discussing the virtues of atheism in the
>Vatican) and decided to to blow $7.99 on midn candy. I picked up
>original plot about brave Lunar rebels fighting against a corrupt
>Terran government. Normally, that would have made me avoid the
>book but I'm counting on Bethke to do something original with
>the meme.
If it matters, I liked _Head Crash_ for the humor, but the plot
was awful. Do I gather that _Rebel Moon_ is an effort to write
a story?
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
> Some of mine:
>
>Certain collaborations: Sterling and anybody. Drake and anybody. McCaffrey
>and anybody. Gregory Benford writing in someone else's universe. A
I liked his Kzin universe stuff.
>glowing recomendation from Anne McCaffrey who must be the nicest
>person in world, given how many clunkers her name appears on recommending
Absolutely--I'll tend to avoid anything with her name on it, whether
as author, collaborator, or blurbist. Nonetheless, she had a surprisingly
good story in that Jewish Mothers in Space anthology.
>them. Yet Another Honourable Mercenary Book. Yet Another Colonists
Military sf unless it's mostly about the characters instead of weapons
and tactics.
Hornblower in Space. Comedies of Manners. Big thick heroic fantasy
novels which will be followed by thicker heroic fantasy novels.
(I may be missing some stuff I'd like, but life is short. Maybe
I'll start another of those series if it gets very good reviews.)
>Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
>vs the Good Government novel*). Del Rey Discovery (except for one book
Most of Del Rey.
>whose name escapes me: Outskirters Secret, I think). Any book by Drake
Yes--I'm really anticipating that third book--any word on how it's
going?
>which might be a reworking of Greek Myth in the Slammerverse.
>
Any non-historical Drake. Anything by Piers Anthony (I haven't
read Patricia Anthony).
This isn't a complete list--just what comes to mind at the moment.
>
> James Nicoll
>
>*I wonder, could one base a career on taking the Standard SF Plots
> and reversing them? Evil Rebels, Humans Meet the Galactic
> Empire and turn out to be submorons comparatively, Backstabbing
> Mercs bugger off at the first volley of shot and steal the
> bags of gold on their way, a young boy thought to be a Mere
> Poor Orphan turns out to *be* a MPO**, and so on...
>
I don't think anyone's built a career of reversing cliches, but there
are short stories which reverse cliches, and I think you'd like
Robert Sheckly's brand of wiseass.
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
12/95 updated calligraphic button catalogue available by email
Christian Claiborn
nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
[From a "what-I-avoid" thread:
> Anything by Piers Anthony (I haven't read Patricia Anthony).
Neither have I, although I've heard good things about one of her
books. However, the proximity of her name to Piers Anthony means that
by the time my eyes have rolled back into the front of my head, I've
skipped past A well into the beginning of B.
It seems to me that there are a number of lesser-known authors who
have the disadvantage of being placed alphabetically close to authors
who have a large catalogue of material available, which probably makes
them harder to find.
Particularly, Ian McDonald and Maureen McHugh, who I consider two of
the genre's finest writers, have the dubious distinction of ending up
right next to Anne McAffrey's vast library, and I often have to remind
myself to snoop around that section to look for new books by the
above. Also, if there are any good skiffy writers in the region from
D to E, I must admit that I am unlikely to find them among the piles
of Donaldson, Drake and Eddings.
I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
shelving?
christian
--
Christian Longshore Claiborn - 508-657-7000, x3304 - c...@cmgi.com
"One cannot in the nature of things expect a little tree that has
been turned into a club to put forth leaves." -- Martin Buber
Robert Sneddon
In article <syd8ygzn...@nenuphar.cmgi.com>
c...@cmgi.com "Christian Claiborn" writes:
> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
> [From a "what-I-avoid" thread:
> > Anything by Piers Anthony (I haven't read Patricia Anthony).
[Clip]
>
> It seems to me that there are a number of lesser-known authors who
> have the disadvantage of being placed alphabetically close to authors
> who have a large catalogue of material available, which probably makes
> them harder to find.
Pity poor Lisanne Norman, who writes good, and would sell better
under a pseudonym, IMHO :>
--
.sigQuiz: What is Wellington J. Fransworth Spookingdorf III better known as?
Answer on http://www.ibfs.demon.co.uk/nojay/quiz.htm
Robert (nojay) Sneddon
Betty Ragan
In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
One that is almost invariably deadly these days, and which has
caused me to reject more than one book that otherwise looked to be
just up my alley: the simple phrase "Book One in the xxxx Series."
It's not that I have anything against series, mind you (and that
subject's been done to death on rasfw, so I don't really wish to open
it up again). It's just that if I'm going to buy a story I want the
*whole* story. I don't want to have to wait for the next book, and I
don't always want to lay out the money for three (or more) books when
I only wanted one. Not all series books stop in the middle of the
story, of course, but I've gotten burned often enough that "Book x in
the y series" on the cover is generally enough to tip the balance
between buying a book that looks interesting and putting it back on
the shelf. (Example: I was all set to buy Martin's _A Game of
Thrones_ since I'd heard so much good stuff about it. The I saw that
"Book One" description and dropped it like a hot potato.)
Other things that can make the difference: A cover illo depicting
muscle-bound men in power armor is a real turn-off (in fact, I'm not
really all that likely to get past the cover of such a book and even
read the back). Opening the book to read a few random sentences and
disovering that it's written in some kind of weird pseudo-hip
cyberpunky slang. (Not that this never works in a book... It's just
something that tends to put me off a bit.) A *really* thick book
with teeny-tiny print. (Again, there's not necessarily anything wrong
with this, but it does make me think twice because I know it'll take
a comparitively large investment of my time.)
Interesting... This isn't really something that I'd thought about
in depth before. Thanks for bringing it up.
--
Betty Ragan (bra...@nrao.edu)
"Donald heard a mermaid sing,/ Susy spied an Elf,
But all the magic I have known/ I've had to make myself." -- Shel Silverstein
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
On the other hand, my first reaction to Dave Duncan's first book was "Ah,
David Duncan is back! He did some interesting work back in the 50's, I
wonder what he is up to these days." Of course, "David Duncan" != "Dave
Duncan" :-)
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew
Frossie
"James" == James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> writes:
James> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
James> indications that make people put books back on bookstore
James> shelves?
Hero/ine stumbles on dark secret and now evil forces
(CIA/Mafia/Aliens) are out to get them. Farm boy goes on quest and
saves the world. Any collaborations between a famous and an unknown
author. Any blurb by over-rated author (eg Gibson). Blurbs by
individuals known to be friends (eg Powers - Blaylock). Any
description relying on names (eg "Ignda of the Strywadill knew the
coming of the Blogodoroth could only mean the Frawdergu prophecy was
correct, and that the Time of the Ripnigth was drawing near"). Trendy
themes (nuclear or ecological catastrophe, sexual
politics). Post-apocalyptic themes.
James> *I wonder, could one base a career on taking the Standard SF
James> Plots and reversing them? Evil Rebels, Humans Meet the Galactic
James> Empire and turn out to be submorons comparatively, Backstabbing
James> Mercs bugger off at the first volley of shot and steal the bags
James> of gold on their way, a young boy thought to be a Mere Poor
James> Orphan turns out to *be* a MPO**, and so on...
Great idea ! I'd like to see:
1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
2/ Hacker cracks a powerful company's security to find that as well
as their publically declared biochemical stockholdings they in
fact secretly fund soup kitchens and shelters across the nation.
3/ Aliens reach the earth. All communication is done through official
UN channels - no rogue scientists, evil dictators, dancers, policemen
or other members of the public are involved.
4/ A Diskworld novel with no jokes in it.
Uh hold on, I didn't mean the last one, dunno what I was thinking about,
I'll just go and lie down for a while...
Frossie
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fro...@jach.hawaii.edu UK Infrared Telescope Software Group
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/~frossie/ Joint Astronomy Centre, Hilo, Hawaii
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joel Benford
Christian Claiborn wrote:
<snip>
>I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
>shelving?
I have a feeling that Bruce Sterling is doing rather well out of being next
to Neal Stephenson.
Sad, really. I'd rather it was the other way round.
-- Joel
_________
But in intensity, in the flashing light of what-humans-can-know (and really what else is there?) we were glorious.
-- "The Day The Dam Broke", Kathleen Ann Goonan
John Russell
Christian Claiborn <c...@cmgi.com> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
>shelving?
I think the W's are a good place to sit -- in amongst Walter Jon
Williams and Gene Wolfe (both good but not overly prolific), close
enough to Zelazny to pick up those who work their way backwards.
John
--
John Russell
joh...@io.org, http://www.io.org/~john13
New and improved vegetarian recipes page at
http://www.io.org/~john13/recipes
Eric Cohen
Christian Claiborn (c...@cmgi.com) wrote:
: I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
: shelving?
Sure. Zelazny's got the toddler market sewed up tight.
--Eric | Safe abortion is still legal. For more information, call
ec@ | Planned Parenthood: (800) 682-9218
shore | NOTICE: Transmittal of this message is now illegal under
.net | the Communications Decency Act.
joe larkin
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew (aha...@clark.net) wrote:
: wonder what he is up to these days." Of course, "David Duncan" != "Dave
: Duncan" :-)
How about Christopher Rowley and Christopher Rowley. One wrote
a series of interesting SF books including _The War for Eternity_,
_The Black Ship_, and _Starhammer_ (amoung others, but these are
his best IMO). The other Christopher Rowley wrote a series of
books with "dragon" in the titles. They may be great, I've
never read them. The titles alone make me cringe.
Joe "the original" Larkin
Mike Gannis
nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
:Hornblower in Space. Comedies of Manners. ...
None of Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry stories?
None of Alexei Panshin's Anthony Villiers novels?
Now, what sets off *my* alarms are clueless cover blurbs of this
sort:
"In the tradition of Isaac Asimov and J.R.R. Tolkien!"
John S. Novak, III
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
o A preponderance of Celtic influence. There has been a recent
fad (which _seems_ to be over, but may simply be in slight remission)
during which it seemed that at least one in every four new books being
published were laden with cheesy-looking Celtic elements, because the
Celts were currntly in vogue.
o Any book or series which is an outgrowth of a role-playing
game.
o ...Or a computer game.
o ...Or, for chrissakes, a card game.
o ...Or a television program.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
Mister Skin
In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> James Nicoll,
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca writes:
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
Good topic.
A clear indicator for me -- any book in which the author goes
hyphen-happy with the proper names, i.e: "D'shana was the queen of the
M'hkik', and hers would be a life of h'ken p'ken ch'ken pluckin'."
Reading should involve constantly clearing one's throat mentally. I'll
make an except for C. J. Ch'erryh, but I resent having to do so.
I pay no attention to blurbs: the people who write them have no idea what
they're doing. Example: Greg Egan's Permutation City has an idiot blurb
on the cover ("Ten million people on a chip!") which has nothing to do
with the book, but it's nevertheless a very good book.
Same with quotes from other authors: could be they genuinely like the
book, could be they genuinely like the author (but not the book), could
be they don't like the book or the author, but are indebted to the author
or his or her publisher or agent, or they could just be an easy quote, as
seems to be the case with McCaffrey.
I read the plot summary carefully, and if it intrigues me, I sample the
book. If I still like it and I've got some spare cash, I buy the book. I
also get a lot of good leads from RASFW. The formal structure of the book
review newsgroup leaves me uninterested in reading it.
James Nicoll
In article <548dgp$i...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
>James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
snip
> I picked up
>>Bethke's latest _Rebel Moon_, which apparently has the most astoundingly
>>original plot about brave Lunar rebels fighting against a corrupt
>>Terran government. Normally, that would have made me avoid the
>>book but I'm counting on Bethke to do something original with
>>the meme.
>
>If it matters, I liked _Head Crash_ for the humor, but the plot
>was awful. Do I gather that _Rebel Moon_ is an effort to write
>a story?
Well phrased. It is an entirely unsuccessful attempt to
write a book by pasting its of past sf books together, along with
some other tired cliches. I posted a mildly negative review: Twain's
comment about Jane Austen applies.
True statement: getting my caved in by a wandering madman was more
rewarding than reading Bethke's (and Vox Day's. How I forget such a pen name)
lastest.
>> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>>
>> Some of mine:
>>
>>Certain collaborations: Sterling and anybody. Drake and anybody. McCaffrey
>>and anybody. Gregory Benford writing in someone else's universe. A
>
>I liked his Kzin universe stuff.
But he gets the details wrong: his hyperdrive is 1 day/ly
instead of 3 d/ly. He also uses a technology (antimatter drives)
which only appears in KS in his book. That's not as terrible a sin
against continuity as his attempt to write a sequel to Clarke,
where he apparently didn't read the original before writing his
sequel (OtherwiseI imagine he'd have at least explained how come
the Earth's Moon is back) but for me, it's annoying.
>Military sf unless it's mostly about the characters instead of weapons
>and tactics.
_A Small Colonial War_ and _A Fire in a Faraway Place_ by
(author forgotten but he's in the 'f' section) are quite readable,
although they rely a bit on the perceived national character of the
Japanese not changing in a century or so: Orwell had an essay which
comments on that wrt the English. The third one in the series is,
alas, quite put-downable.
snip
>Comedies of Manners.
Um. I can't think of any.
>>Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
>>vs the Good Government novel*). Del Rey Discovery (except for one book
>
>Most of Del Rey.
>
>>whose name escapes me: Outskirters Secret, I think). Any book by Drake
>
>Yes--I'm really anticipating that third book--any word on how it's
>going?
>>
>>*I wonder, could one base a career on taking the Standard SF Plots
>> and reversing them? Evil Rebels, Humans Meet the Galactic
>> Empire and turn out to be submorons comparatively, Backstabbing
>> Mercs bugger off at the first volley of shot and steal the
>> bags of gold on their way, a young boy thought to be a Mere
>> Poor Orphan turns out to *be* a MPO**, and so on...
>>
>I don't think anyone's built a career of reversing cliches, but there
>are short stories which reverse cliches, and I think you'd like
>Robert Sheckly's brand of wiseass.
I have a fair Sheckley collection. I was thinking that the reversed
stories should do to the original tired plot ideas what _Don Quixote_ did
to heroic fiction (Ideally, kill it off for a few centuries). That would
take a very good writer.
James Nicoll
William P Setzer
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
:
: That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
: indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
My general rules of what to skip are:
Anything...
* About King Arthur or his buddies,
* About a disease,
* That's part of a series that Should Have Ended several books ago,
* That's a spinoff of something else (TV, movie, game),
* That's a "shared world" series (including "in the world of"s), and
* That's won a Nebula.
Everything else usually gets a chance, unless it's part of a series
to (of?) which I can't get the earlier books.
William
Julian Flood
Christian Claiborn (c...@cmgi.com) wrote:
> : I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
> : shelving?
David Gemmell told me it's G. I'm inclined to believe him.
--
Job xix 23
Paul F. Dietz
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
o When the best recommendation they can get on the cover is
from Kirkus.
Paul
"Contains many correctly spelled words! -- Kirkus"
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <DzJ5...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <548dgp$i...@universe.digex.net>,
>Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>>In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
>>James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>>>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>>>
>>>
> snip
>
>>Comedies of Manners.
>
> Um. I can't think of any.
>
_Sporting Chance_ etc., novels. _Cetaganda_. These are all by
authors who've written other books I've liked very much, but I
can't seem to care about that particular sort of plot twist.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <54bmd6$7...@herald.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>In <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
>fad (which _seems_ to be over, but may simply be in slight remission)
>during which it seemed that at least one in every four new books being
>published were laden with cheesy-looking Celtic elements, because the
>Celts were currntly in vogue.
>
and rather enjoyed it. (Too many fight scenes, but the world-building
was delightful.)
>o Any book or series which is an outgrowth of a role-playing
>game.
>
>o ...Or a computer game.
>
>o ...Or, for chrissakes, a card game.
>
>o ...Or a television program.
>
o ...Or a movie, except that all of the above are reasons for me
to never pick the book up off the shelf (unless they're by a writer
whose work I like very much) rather than for me to put the book back.
Norman L. DeForest
Betty Ragan (bra...@newshost.aoc.nrao.edu) wrote:
: In article <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
: James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
: >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
: One that is almost invariably deadly these days, and which has
: caused me to reject more than one book that otherwise looked to be
: just up my alley: the simple phrase "Book One in the xxxx Series."
Worse is "Book Three in the xxxx Series" when I have never seen books One or
Two and the bookstore says they are out of print.
Norman De Forest
af...@chebucto.ns.ca
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/Profile.html
.........................................................................
Q. Which is the greater problem in the world today, ignorance or apathy?
A. I don't know and I couldn't care less.
.........................................................................
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Christian Claiborn <c...@cmgi.com> wrote:
>I wonder if anyone has calculated a name with the best parameters for
>shelving?
>
books were more likely to be shelved at eye height or higher.
Rich Horton
"To feel the always coming on, the always rising of the night" --
Archibald MacLeish
Richard Lucock
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
> Some of mine:
>... Yet Another Colonists
>Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
>vs the Good Government novel*).
The nearest that I've seen to this is John Brunner's 'The Long Result',
although even there the colonists aren't really evil.
Richard
--
Username is rmal; node is barsoom -at- demon -dot- co -dot- uk.
Any sufficiently advanced OS is indistinguishable from AmigaDOS
Alan Bird
> what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
> Some of mine:
>
>and anybody. Gregory Benford writing in someone else's universe.
Any one who adds a work to someone else's universe. No. I'll amend that.
My complaint needs to be more specific. Step forward the guilty party:
Michael Shea. Shea, who attempted to add a Cugel novel to Jack Vance's
oeuvre. I always thought the Excellent Mr Vance was inimitable. Now I
know he is; what I hadn't appreciated was the gulf that exists between
him and any imitator, especially Michael Shea. I cannot imagine that the
Excellent Mr Vance gave his permission for such a travesty.
--
Alan Bird Inventor & Sole consumer of After-8 Mince
Robert Pearlman
> >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
> > Some of mine:
>
> >Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil
How about "Citizen of the Galaxy"?
rp
John S. Novak, III
>>o ...Or a television program.
>o ...Or a movie, except that all of the above are reasons for me
>to never pick the book up off the shelf (unless they're by a writer
>whose work I like very much) rather than for me to put the book back.
I knew I forgot one.
I should add that the only one of those rules I'm considering breaking
is the television series one, for the sake of investigating one fo
those B5 novels, since I like B5.
"Are they worth it?" he asks, in an environment where he's likely to
get a less biased response than in one of the B5 groups.
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <lzy4tjq...@babylon5.unity.ncsu.edu>,
William P Setzer <William...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
>jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
>:
>: That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>: indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
>
>Anything...
> * That's won a Nebula.
Care to explain this one?
Such as which winners turned you off?
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Steve Patterson
In article <54e2h8$6...@herald.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) says:
>
>I knew I forgot one.
>I should add that the only one of those rules I'm considering breaking
>is the television series one, for the sake of investigating one fo
>those B5 novels, since I like B5.
>
>"Are they worth it?" he asks, in an environment where he's likely to
>get a less biased response than in one of the B5 groups.
Much as it grieves this die-hard "B5" fan to say it, the novels stink.
(I'm sorry, there's just no other way to say it.) If you want to throw
money at JMS and Warner Bros., then go ahead and pick up a copy or two;
if you're looking for a good read, then I must sadly advise you to pass 'em
by.
If you'd still like to have a look, the best of the lot is _Clarke's Law_;
it's a solid piece of work, but not terribly inspired. Better than your
typical airport novel. (I'd give you more particulars, but it's out on
loan right now.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Steven J. Patterson spatt...@wwdc.com
W.O.R.L.D.'S....S..L..O..W..E..S..T....W...R...I...T...E...R
"Men may move mountains, but ideas move men."
-- M.N. Vorkosigan, per L.M. Bujold
Ross Smith
> > That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
> >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
> from Kirkus.
When the cover *only* contains recommendations and no actual description
of the plot. It generally means it hasn't got one. (Honourable
exception: Michael Marshall Smith's _Only Forward_. I don't know what
possessed me to buy that one in the complete absence of any significant
blurb, but I'm glad I did.)
--
Ross Smith (Wellington, New Zealand) ...... <mailto:al...@netlink.co.nz>
......... <http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/3699/> ..........
"The duke had a mind that ticked like a clock and, like a clock, it
regularly went cuckoo." -- Terry Pratchett (Wyrd Sisters)
BLANG
In <548dgp$i...@universe.digex.net>, nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
<snip>
>Any non-historical Drake. Anything by Piers Anthony (I haven't
>read Patricia Anthony).
<snip>
I second that one. How is it that the As are invariably filled with his
slush? Does anyone out there buy his stuff? Somehow, you get to the
As and there is an entire shelf full of Piers Anthony.
(Of course, maybe it's full because NO ONE is buying his stuff.)
Besides avoiding Anthony, the other big turnoff for me is ugly covers.
Brian
Marks Robert B
Mike Gannis (mga...@sdsc.edu) wrote:
Yarg! That would be bad...I didn't know you could mix those two!
Robert Marks (new .sig attached...this one from my novel...)
--
"There rarely is," Colont said. "Evil isn't terrifying until after
you've faced it. Some people face the unknown of evil, and they fear the
unknown bit of it. We know it though, and now we are about to see a new
aspect. But we cannot fear it, we have not seen it."
-- From _Demon's Vengeance_
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <54bjmc$e...@rosebud.sdsc.edu>,
Mike Gannis <mga...@sdsc.edu> wrote:
>nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>
>:Hornblower in Space. Comedies of Manners. ...
>
>None of Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry stories?
>
been quite a while since I've read either, though, and I don't know
how they'd look to me now.
>None of Alexei Panshin's Anthony Villiers novels?
>
Liked the first two, thought the third was kind of dull, though it
gets credit for inducing me to try Cranshaw (Crenshaw?) melons,
which are excellent.
I'm not sure if I can put a finger on the difference, but I think
there's a distinction between a pure comedy of manners where most
of what's going on are delicately handled status struggles between
upper-class people and novels which have Torve the Trog.
The Flandry books mostly got him away from his own kind and into
conflicts with aliens, didn't they?
>Now, what sets off *my* alarms are clueless cover blurbs of this
>sort:
>
>"In the tradition of Isaac Asimov and J.R.R. Tolkien!"
You've got a point, though I take what's on the first page more
seriously than the blurbs. If a character is described as looking
like a movie or tv star (I mean a particular star, by name), the
book goes back on the shelf.
Beth and Richard Treitel
To my surprise and delight, jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll)
wrote:
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
Trisyllabic titles like "Starkiller", "Mindwringer", "Deathleader",
and so on (thanks to whoever mentioned this).
Bare boobs on the cover -- not because I dislike bare boobs, but
because of what they tell me about whom the book is aimed at.
Blurbs claiming that the author is as good as <really popular author>.
If this were true, I'd have heard about them on r.a.sf.w.
Use of the word "acclaimed" in blurbs is a really bad sign. An even
worse one is "soon to be a major motion picture".
Blurbs hinting at a "boy meets girl" plot. But if I followed this
absolutely, I'd have ignored _In Conquest Born_. Whew!
Blurbs saying that the book deals with <important issue> -- not
because I dislike important issues, but because such blurbs tend to
adorn only the preachiest of books. However, this could lead you to
ignore the reprint of _tMiaHM_.
Almost any collabo. With a few honourable exceptions, collabos lack
the best qualities of any of their authors.
- Richard
------
What is (and isn't) ScF? ==> http://web.wco.com/~treitel/sf.html
A sufficiently incompetent ScF author is indistinguishable from magic.
Anne B. Nonie Rider
What puts me off a book immediately, so I leave it in the store?
Well, unlike some folks, I don't mind trilogies et al;
there's some good things it takes more than one book
to say. However, it's true that "Book Two of..." puts me
off unless I can find Book One.
What I don't look at: books with spaceship/planet cover art
rather than human beings. Armored military goons (sf or fantasy).
Mighty-thewed barbarians (male or female) by Frazetta imitators.
Fantasy group shots that look like D&D adventures (you know,
those covers with a lineup of the fighter, the thief, the
wizard, and the bard, with at least one elf and one female).
All those succeed in telling me what the book`s about; they're
good marketing for their product, so I know what to avoid.
What I'll always look at: Michael Whelan and Thomas Canty covers,
and new and interesting styles. Unlike some, I *did* look at
_Mordred's Curse_ because of the cover.
?Jody Lee's a borderline case. The particular style she uses
for Mercedes Lackey books doesn't appeal to me, nor recommend a
book to me, but she can do a wonderful eyecatching cover like
the one for _Hunter's Oath_, which hooked me.
Cover art colors can also influence my impression of a book.
I'm not particularly fond of fluorescent colors, even as
secondary notes, so (for example) it took me a while to find
Bujold's books. Those odd purples and turquoises tend to
suggest a shallow eye-catcher to me. On the other hand, I
like watercolors, warm day colors (green, gold, blue), and
darker gem colors.
I don't mind the American habit of emphasizing top-of-line
books with large raised print and foil highlights, but it
only increases my cover interest by about 5%.
My least favorite cover artist of all time? Whoever did all
those ugly Ace covers in the 50s or so, with abstract twisted
shapes that looked like asteroids joined with bone sections,
usually in ugly dull greys and reds. Yuck!
--Nonie
Anne B. Nonie Rider
I should note also that, unlike some posters, I'm
*more* likely to buy a first novel, and I like banners
like the Del Rey Discoveries line to help point them
out to me.
Why? Partly curiousity about someone whose books I haven't
passed up before <grin>, partly a desire to find out whether
I like an author before half their books are out of print,
and partly sympathy. An author's first book is a genesis,
and should be celebrated with trumpets and fireworks.
--Nonie
Rocky Persaud
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>In <54d8bj$k...@universe.digex.net> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>
>>>o ...Or a television program.
>
>>o ...Or a movie, except that all of the above are reasons for me
>>to never pick the book up off the shelf (unless they're by a writer
>>whose work I like very much) rather than for me to put the book back.
>
>I should add that the only one of those rules I'm considering breaking
>is the television series one, for the sake of investigating one fo
>those B5 novels, since I like B5.
>
>"Are they worth it?" he asks, in an environment where he's likely to
>get a less biased response than in one of the B5 groups.
>John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
>http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
>The Humblest Man on the Net
For the most part, no, except for _Clarke's Law_ by ... I forget.
The majority on the B5 groups would agree that book#4 is the only
one worth reading. Why would you think they would be biased?
/////Rocky
Bob La Force
James Nicoll wrote:
> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
> indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
Big thick books with teeny print that make your eyes hurt when you read
late into the night because you can't put it down.
Goofy cover art. I like art that is stylish, like the TEK covers.
(Valejo, (?) I think..)
Characters with virtually unpronounceable names.. I hate having to skip
over words...
--
Bob La Force
Webmaster
Duke University Human Resources
http://www.hr.duke.edu
Henry Troup
In article <54852n$2...@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>,
Betty Ragan <bra...@newshost.aoc.nrao.edu> wrote:
>caused me to reject more than one book that otherwise looked to be
>just up my alley: the simple phrase "Book One in the xxxx Series."
Trivially worse is finding "book two of the <adfjective> xxxx
series/saga" - with no sign of book one anywhere.
--
Henry Troup h...@igs.net I am responsible for these opinions.
Celia Malm
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>In <54d8bj$k...@universe.digex.net> nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>>>o ...Or a television program.
>>o ...Or a movie, except that all of the above are reasons for me
>>to never pick the book up off the shelf (unless they're by a writer
>>whose work I like very much) rather than for me to put the book back.
>I knew I forgot one.
>I should add that the only one of those rules I'm considering breaking
>is the television series one, for the sake of investigating one fo
>those B5 novels, since I like B5.
>"Are they worth it?" he asks, in an environment where he's likely to
>get a less biased response than in one of the B5 groups.
Well, I read one by S.M. Stirling which was really pretty good. The
sly references to Tolkien were hilarious (knowing that B5 draws
heavily on Tolkien for it's themes.) And, for me at least, it captured
the feel of the show so well that I kept thinking "wasn't there an
episode of this?", when I know perfectly well that the novels are all
"originals".
Cee
------------------------------------------------
"If I must be this...this thing they have made of me,
I shall at least give it my voice and my heart."
Walker Boh
William P Setzer
alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Lynn Leistra) writes:
: William P Setzer <William...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
: >:
: >: indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
: >My general rules of what to skip are:
: >
: >Anything...
:
: > * That's won a Nebula.
:
: Care to explain this one?
Sure. I noticed that I never seemed to read any of the books that
always got nominated/won the major SF awards, so I went out and picked
up _Doomsday Book_, which won the Nebula that year. I also picked up
_Fire Upon the Deep_, which memory tells me tied for the Nebula? I
read _Fire_ and disliked it, but only moderately. Then I read
_Doomsday Book_ and hated it actively and with passion, something that
I Just Don't Do.
Since I went such a strong zero for two, the obvious conclusion was
that my tastes and the "je ne sais quoi" of award winners just don't
mix. So I stay away. Logical, huh? :-)
William
Mark Kreighbaum
William P Setzer wrote:
> ...
> Sure. I noticed that I never seemed to read any of the books that
> always got nominated/won the major SF awards, so I went out and picked
> up _Doomsday Book_, which won the Nebula that year. I also picked up
> _Fire Upon the Deep_, which memory tells me tied for the Nebula? I
> read _Fire_ and disliked it, but only moderately. Then I read
> _Doomsday Book_ and hated it actively and with passion, something that
> I Just Don't Do.
>
> Since I went such a strong zero for two, the obvious conclusion was
> that my tastes and the "je ne sais quoi" of award winners just don't
> mix. So I stay away. Logical, huh? :-)
>
De gustibus, naturally. But I think it's useful to name a few other Nebula-winning
novels, many still in print and well-regarded by s.f. readers...
GATEWAY (Frederik Pohl)
STARTIDE RISING (David Brin)
ENDER'S GAME (Orson Scott Card)
DUNE (Frank Herbert)
RINGWORD (Larry Niven)
THE FOREVER WAR (Joe Haldeman)
THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (Ursula K. Le Guin)
I didn't care for DOOMSDAY BOOK, myself, whereas A FIRE UPON THE DEEP I thought plenty
interesting. By and large, I've found the Nebula a very useful indicator of quality
fiction.
Best,
Mark Kreighbaum (mkrei...@earthlink.net)
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <54gg2j$3...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>,
Anne B. "Nonie" Rider <nri...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>
>My least favorite cover artist of all time? Whoever did all
>those ugly Ace covers in the 50s or so, with abstract twisted
>shapes that looked like asteroids joined with bone sections,
>usually in ugly dull greys and reds. Yuck!
>
was quite impressed when I saw originals in art shows. There
was a striking sense of distance which got lost in the
small (and poor?) reproductions.
Beth and Richard Treitel
>Yet Another Colonists
>Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil Colonists
>vs the Good Government novel*).
Pournelle?
Mister Skin
In article <54gg2j$3...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com> Anne B.,
nri...@us.oracle.com writes:
:>What I don't look at: books with spaceship/planet cover art
:>rather than human beings. Armored military goons (sf or fantasy).
:>Mighty-thewed barbarians (male or female) by Frazetta imitators.
:>Fantasy group shots that look like D&D adventures (you know,
:>those covers with a lineup of the fighter, the thief, the
:>wizard, and the bard, with at least one elf and one female).
:>All those succeed in telling me what the book`s about; they're
:>good marketing for their product, so I know what to avoid.
:>
:>What I'll always look at: Michael Whelan and Thomas Canty covers,
:>and new and interesting styles. Unlike some, I *did* look at
:>_Mordred's Curse_ because of the cover.
:>
:>?Jody Lee's a borderline case. The particular style she uses
:>for Mercedes Lackey books doesn't appeal to me, nor recommend a
:>book to me, but she can do a wonderful eyecatching cover like
:>the one for _Hunter's Oath_, which hooked me.
:>
:>Cover art colors can also influence my impression of a book.
:>I'm not particularly fond of fluorescent colors, even as
:>secondary notes, so (for example) it took me a while to find
:>Bujold's books. Those odd purples and turquoises tend to
:>suggest a shallow eye-catcher to me. On the other hand, I
:>like watercolors, warm day colors (green, gold, blue), and
:>darker gem colors.
:>
:>I don't mind the American habit of emphasizing top-of-line
:>books with large raised print and foil highlights, but it
:>only increases my cover interest by about 5%.
:>My least favorite cover artist of all time? Whoever did all
:>those ugly Ace covers in the 50s or so, with abstract twisted
:>shapes that looked like asteroids joined with bone sections,
:>usually in ugly dull greys and reds. Yuck!
I really loved those particular covers ...
Just out of curiousity ... do you, uh, READ the book after purchasing it,
or just look at it a lot?
Avram Grumer
In article <54d8bj$k...@universe.digex.net>, nan...@universe.digex.net
(Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>In article <54bmd6$7...@herald.concentric.net>,
>John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>>
>>o A preponderance of Celtic influence. There has been a recent
>>fad (which _seems_ to be over, but may simply be in slight remission)
>>during which it seemed that at least one in every four new books being
>>published were laden with cheesy-looking Celtic elements, because the
>>Celts were currntly in vogue.
>>
>I'm amazed, but I still like the Celtic stuff. I just read _Doc Sidhe_
>and rather enjoyed it. (Too many fight scenes, but the world-building
>was delightful.)
I think that John may have been referring to the seemingly infinite stream
of generic Celtic and pseudo-Celtic genre fantasy novels that has been
flowing through bookstores in the past few years. _Doc Sidhe_ has Celtic
influences, but it's most certainly not genre fantasy. (Did you notice
that the villains were consistently smarter than the heroes throughout the
book?)
--
Avram Grumer Work: agr...@crossover.com
http://www.users.interport.net/~avram Home: av...@interport.net
When crimes are outlawed, only outlaws will commit crimes.
Bruce Baugh
In article <syd8ygzn...@nenuphar.cmgi.com>, Christian Claiborn <c...@cmgi.com> wrote:
>Neither have I, although I've heard good things about one of her
>books. However, the proximity of her name to Piers Anthony means that
>by the time my eyes have rolled back into the front of my head, I've
>skipped past A well into the beginning of B.
From time to time I miss fresh editions of Poul Anderson books, for the
same reason.
I'd like to note that the first Patricia Anthony book I read (BROTHER
TERMITE) was _extremely_ good, and has led to my purchasing her others,
where they wait for some immediate crunch to pass so I can read them.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> http://www.kenosis.com/bruce
See my Web pages for...
Daedalus Entertainment, makers of Feng Shui and Shadowfist
Christlib, the mailing list of Christian & libertarian ideas
New sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
jev...@pyrimage.com
William P Setzer wrote:
>
> : >
> : >My general rules of what to skip are:
> : >
> : >Anything...
> :
> : > * That's won a Nebula.
> :
> : Care to explain this one?
>
> always got nominated/won the major SF awards, so I went out and picked
> up _Doomsday Book_, which won the Nebula that year. I also picked up
> _Fire Upon the Deep_, which memory tells me tied for the Nebula? I
> read _Fire_ and disliked it, but only moderately. Then I read
> _Doomsday Book_ and hated it actively and with passion, something that
> I Just Don't Do.
A FIRE UPON THE DEEP tied for the Hugo, not the Nebula.
> Since I went such a strong zero for two, the obvious conclusion was ^^^
...one...
> that my tastes and the "je ne sais quoi" of award winners just don't
> mix. So I stay away. Logical, huh? :-)
Mmm. Does the phrase "sample size" mean anything to you?
You really are missing a lot of great writing by skipping Nebula winners:
NEUROMANCER, THE CLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR, THE FOREVER WAR, RENDEZVOUS
WITH RAMA, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD...
Jon
Steve Sloan
Bob La Force wrote:
> Characters with virtually unpronounceable names.. I hate having
> to skip over words...
> --
> Bob La Force
That was something I hated about Orson Scott Card's long series,
starting with The Memory of Earth... names with weird pronunciation
rules, like adding "y" sounds in places where there aren't any. For
example, "Nafai" was pronounced "Nyaf-I"...
--
*********************************************************************
"Take my Worf... please!" Data, from "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
"The thing about aliens is... they're ALIEN." Gregory Benford
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan E-mail: sl...@geosim.msfc.nasa.gov
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
James Nicoll
In article <54gccm$d...@universe.digex.net>,
Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>In article <54bjmc$e...@rosebud.sdsc.edu>,
>Mike Gannis <mga...@sdsc.edu> wrote:
>>nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>>
>>:Hornblower in Space. Comedies of Manners. ...
>>
>>None of Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry stories?
>>
>They were readable, but I liked the van Rijn stories much better. It's
>been quite a while since I've read either, though, and I don't know
>how they'd look to me now.
I reread part of my Poul Anderson collection. OK, but the
women are written to a 1950s SF sensibility (Although they actually
get to do things in his books). I thought they poorly.
James Nicoll
--
" The moral, if you're a scholar don't pick up beautiful babes on deserted
lanes at night. Real Moral, Chinese ghost stories have mostly been written
by scholars who have some pretty strange fantasies about women."
Brian David Phillips
Andrew Hackard
I love this thread.
William P Setzer <William...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
>My general rules of what to skip are:
>Anything...
> * About King Arthur or his buddies,
Counterexample, although one that's just barely and tangentially SF:
_The Skystone_ by Jack Whyte. Maybe it's my Latinate background showing
through, but I really enjoyed Whyte's look at the end of the Roman
occupation of Britain. There are some off-putting elements, but in
general I enjoyed this one.
I guess it isn't too much a spoiler (since it's on the back cover, but is
NOT in the book) to point out the Arthurian connection: Two of the main
characters are two of Arthur's great-grandsires.
> * About a disease,
What, you didn't like _The Stand_?
_The White Plague_?
"Outbreak"?
;-)
> * That's part of a series that Should Have Ended several books ago,
> * That's a spinoff of something else (TV, movie, game),
> * That's a "shared world" series (including "in the world of"s), and
You mean like Star Trek, an "all of the above" entrant.
> * That's won a Nebula.
What about dual Hugo/Nebula winners?
My approach is more of a browse-and-take-a-chance than looking for signs
which will put me off. I tend to be quite conservative, picking out books
by authors I know and enjoy or have heard good things about; as a result,
my SF collection has depth, not breadth. Having as little "free read" time
as I do, I have to go with what I know I want.
ObGuiltyPleasure: Certain game tie-ins. Sure, the books suck, but at
least I don't have to spend any mental energy on them.... :-)
--
"We're living in the first generation in a couple of hundred
years that isn't embarrassed about being semiliterate." --Joe Bob Briggs
Jerry Kindall
In article <326D18...@mapsrus.msfc.nasa.gov>, Steve Sloan
<sl...@mapsrus.msfc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>Bob La Force wrote:
>> Characters with virtually unpronounceable names.. I hate having
>> to skip over words...
>> --
>> Bob La Force
>
>That was something I hated about Orson Scott Card's long series,
>starting with The Memory of Earth... names with weird pronunciation
>rules, like adding "y" sounds in places where there aren't any. For
>example, "Nafai" was pronounced "Nyaf-I"...
You can just ignore the rules he gives; they're not law, and it won't
interfere with your enjoyment of the story to skip them. I had to do that
in Speaker For The Dead too, with all those Portuguese names which looked
so much like the Spanish I had in high school but were pronounced entirely
differently in many cases...
--
Jerry Kindall <kin...@manual.com>
Manual Labor <http://www.manual.com/>
Technical Writing; Internet & WWW Consulting
Jeff Walden
Robert Pearlman wrote:
>
> Richard Lucock wrote:
> >
> > jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
> >
> > > That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
> > >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
> >
> >
> > >... Yet Another Colonists
> > >Vs The Evil Government Book (someone *has* to write the Evil
>
> How about "Citizen of the Galaxy"?
>
> rp
Yeah...and I've always wondered why there are no libertarian protest
songs...
-- Jeff
=========================================================
Jeff Walden || Freelance Writer || wal...@sierra.net
voice: 702-832-7018 || fax: 702-832-7026
Technical Documentation for the 21st Century
=========================================================
John D. Owen
William P Setzer
> :
> : That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
> : indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>
>
> Anything...
Boy, you are hard to please! What's wrong with the Nebulas that merely
winning one will put you off the book? Surely something that is awarded
a writer by his peers (ie, the other writers in the SFWA) can't be ALL
bad? (And I just know that someone is going to step in and point to the
Oscars as an awful example of peer-group voting giveing real clunkers
awards!) I'm more likely to look twice at a book by a writer I've not
tried before that has a Nebula or Hugo nomination.
JDO
Bo Lindbergh
In article <32779932...@news.wco.com> tre...@wco.com writes:
>
> Trisyllabic titles like "Starkiller", "Mindwringer", "Deathleader",
> and so on (thanks to whoever mentioned this).
Oh dear. I was going to call my first novel _Godeater_.
:-)
/Bo Lindbergh
Matt McIrvin
In article <54hcf8$p...@universe.digex.net>, nan...@universe.digex.net
(Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
> In article <54gg2j$3...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>,
> Anne B. "Nonie" Rider <nri...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
> >
> >My least favorite cover artist of all time? Whoever did all
> >those ugly Ace covers in the 50s or so, with abstract twisted
> >shapes that looked like asteroids joined with bone sections,
> >usually in ugly dull greys and reds. Yuck!
> >
> That may be Powers--if so, I didn't like his cover art, but
> was quite impressed when I saw originals in art shows. [...]
Some of those weird abstract covers from the fifties and sixties bore a
definite debt to Yves Tanguy, one of the most abstract of the Surrealist
painters. He painted a lot of gray landscapes populated by rickety-looking
assemblies of stone- and bone-like objects, sometimes with ghostly lines
connecting them to each other and to the top of the canvas. I kinda like
'em, but the ersatz Tanguys do wear on you after a while.
--
Matt McIrvin <http://world.std.com/~mmcirvin/>
Dominik Gamble
>there's some good things it takes more than one book
>to say. However, it's true that "Book Two of..." puts me
>off unless I can find Book One.
What's even worse is finding "The New Book In..." with no
way of knowing which book is Book One. Like, what order do
LM Bujold's books actually go in?
Even worse are two-in-one collections with new titles,
resulting in seven volumes by an author who has only ever
written three novels, with no way of knowing what contains
what else.
I'd love to see a web site with an author/title/ISBN index
in the original sequence. Is there one somewhere already?
If not, I'll take Book-A-comes-before-Book-B info anytime.
--
dg
R. Wald
>
>>Bob La Force wrote:
>>> Characters with virtually unpronounceable names.. I hate having
>>> to skip over words...
>>> --
This goes for me, too. It's a particularly bad sign when the names are
full of punctuation marks.
Other bad signs (from my POV):
-Love stories in fantasy guise. For some reason, there don't seem to be
as many in SF guise. This goes double if the heroine is "spirited" or
"strong-willed" and the blurb suggests that "her heart will be tamed" or
that she will fall in love with the hero after initially hating him.
-mixes of fantasy and modern slang or pop culture. Elves encountering
microwaves with disastrous results; phrases like "thou art bumming out;"
the inevitable comment by modern-transported-into-fantasy-world (all
together now!) "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore." I will say
that this is sometimes done well. Diane Duane's children's series ("So You
Want to Be a Wizard" is the 1st one) makes the mix sound natural.
-"Based on the hit..." or "the cult classic..." I want my books to be based
on an idea the author had, not a movie, TV series, or game. I was horrified
to find out that Feist's books are based on a RPG. I'd made a rule never to
read those, and broke it unwittingly.
-Any book written by a man that explains the deep, secret needs of women.
These seem less common these days.
and, as another poster mentioned, I can't stand books that have quotes by
reviewers instead of a blurb sketching the plot or premise. I buy books
because they sound like interesting stories, not because someone told me to.
Even if that someone does think the books is "stunning...epic...brilliant...
(or, worst yet) compares to Tolkien."
Rebecca
(the crotchety)
Michael C. Ling
On Oct 23, 1996 04:59:40 in article <Re: Bad Signs>,
'rw...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (R. Wald)' wrote:
>-"Based on the hit..." or "the cult classic..." I want my books to be
based
>on an idea the author had, not a movie, TV series, or game. I was
horrified
>to find out that Feist's books are based on a RPG. I'd made a rule never
to
>read those, and broke it unwittingly.
actually made. For one thing, you get the unabridged storyline. "Last
Starfighter" was A LOT better in the novel, the characters were smarter and
more believable. "Tron" was better too(There was a line in the book that
was not in the movie that I love: at some point, Flynn says "Thank God" and
Yuri said "Who?"). In the "Final Countdown" the was a great set of lines by
an aviation expert of 1941 witnessing F14's zooming by, astonished at how
those planes were able to [climb faster than their planes were able to
dive]. Maybe it's better to spend $6 on the novelization than $8 on the
movie ticket
M C L -
--
WWW page under construction (last update 07/20/96) Halfway complete.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mike_Ling/homepage.htm
Paul Silver
nri...@us.oracle.com (Anne B. "Nonie" Rider) wrote:
>I should note also that, unlike some posters, I'm
>*more* likely to buy a first novel, and I like banners
>like the Del Rey Discoveries line to help point them
>out to me.
I used to be the same with 'Venture' books (mainly published by Arrow), and
especially the newer VGSF books - in the library their logo on the edge was
always a good sign for me. Some were not-so-hot, but I found some good
authors from them.
Paul.
Silence to those who oppose freedom of speech!
Webwork: www.bag-hotels.co.uk - selected & inspected UK accommodation
William P Setzer
"John D. Owen" <J.D....@open.ac.uk> writes:
:
: What's wrong with the Nebulas that merely winning one will put you
: off the book? Surely something that is awarded a writer by his
Having given much thought to this subject the last couple days
(honestly, I never thought anyone would blink twice at my throwaway
comment!), your question gets to the heart of it. Frankly, I felt
that _Doomsday Book_ *was* all bad, and my sheer astonishment that it
won anything affected my view of the Nebula. (Also a factor was that I
tried it _because_ it won a Nebula.)
Now obviously the book had to have _something_ going for it; I'm not
presuming the Nebula judges consisted of idiots or conspirators. But
just as obviously, their criteria for a good book had to have been
disjoint from my own, for us to disagree so strongly. It's like
finally deciding to see a "loved by every critic on earth" movie
and walking out at the end wondering how you'll ever get those two
wasted hours of your life back. How quickly are you go go see
the next "loved by every critic on earth" movie?
As it turns out, of the eleven Nebula winners Mr. Kreighbaum and
Mr. Evans listed in another part of this thread, I've managed to read
five of them. (Actually, I think I've read six, but I just can't
remember anything about _Ringworld_.) I rate them:
_Ender's Game_ liked quite a bit, 4.5/ 5
_Dune_ ok I guess, mostly boring, 2 / 5
_Neuromancer_ yawn, 1 / 5
_Claw.. Conciliator_ read under adverse conditions,
should reread for fair evaluation, 2 / 5
_Speaker for.. Dead_ not bad, 3.5/ 5
Hmm, not as bad as I would have expected, although they still average
to the "mild dislike" category. Maybe I'll have to amend my criterion
to "Anything that I haven't heard anything about *except* that it won
a Nebula". :-)
William
PS: And for the curious, here's a partial list of authors that I
always buy, because I've liked practically everything of theirs
that I've read:
Lawrence Watt-Evans, Mike Resnick (only remember disliking
_Purgatory_), Tom Deitz, David Feintuch (those Seafort books
really hooked me), Charles de Lint, Emma Bull, Nikki? Kirina?
Hoffman (_Thread That Binds the Bones_), and a few others that
I just can't bring to mind right now.
Kate Nepveu
Rumor has it that Dominik Gamble <d...@dgamble.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>What's even worse is finding "The New Book In..." with no
>way of knowing which book is Book One. Like, what order do
>LM Bujold's books actually go in?
This is a very frequently asked question here. I suggest you check
out the FAQ for the newsgroup, posted monthly here & to news.anwers.
If you can't get it through dejanews, let me know & I'll try to
dig up a better pointer. Hope that helps! (Oh, and LMB's books
have a timeline in the back, but some people think even those tiny
blurbs are too much of a spoiler.)
Kate
--
Sometimes, she reflected, she dressed for courage, sometimes for
success, and sometimes for the consolation of knowing that whatever
else went wrong, at least she liked her clothes. This promised to be
one of the latter times.
--Emma Bull, _War for the Oaks_
Steve Henderson
}> >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
}>
Muscular barbarians with small, clever thief-like companions.
Beth and Richard Treitel
To my surprise and delight, d88...@xbyse.nada.kth.se (Bo Lindbergh)
wrote:
So call it "Eater of Gods" (but I still don't promise to buy it).
Or "Devourer of Gods" if your publisher insists.
Beth and Richard Treitel
To my surprise and delight, mmci...@world.std.com (Matt McIrvin)
wrote:
>Some of those weird abstract covers from the fifties and sixties bore a
>definite debt to Yves Tanguy, one of the most abstract of the Surrealist
>painters.
And some of them were straight reproductions of his paintings -- Brian
Aldiss mentions that he did this when he was working with, um,
Penguin. There are a few Tanguy paintings on the Web under
http://ipisun.jpte.hu/coil/magazin/tanguy.html
Jo Walton
In article <54l4ie$a...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>
mike...@nyc.pipeline.com(Michael "Michael C. Ling" writes:
>
> Novelizations of movies tend to be as good better than the movie that's
> actually made. For one thing, you get the unabridged storyline. "Last
> Starfighter" was A LOT better in the novel, the characters were smarter and
> more believable.
This is not difficult to believe. I have played games of Space Invaders
with better characterisation, more sensible plot, better alien motivation
*and* better dialogue.
There's a terrific book by Terry Pratchett called _Only You Can Save
Mankind_ which does wonderful things with that basic idea. And there's
a character in it who is painfully much like I was at that age. Only
more together. :]
--
Jo J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Niccolo Machiavelli
In article <326B44...@earthlink.net>,
>> always got nominated/won the major SF awards, so I went out and picked
>novels, many still in print and well-regarded by s.f. readers...
Which leads to my pet theory that if you put the ansible in your
book, you too will get a Nebula award.
Dave C.
--
Dave C.
iN*T*x
Jo Walton
In article <uxsp7bs...@pa.jach.hawaii.edu>
fro...@jach.hawaii.edu "Frossie" writes:
Any
> description relying on names (eg "Ignda of the Strywadill knew the
> coming of the Blogodoroth could only mean the Frawdergu prophecy was
> correct, and that the Time of the Ripnigth was drawing near").
My favourite one of this is on Kathleen Starbuck's _India's Story_ -
it's clearly a blurb for a much more imaginative and interesting
book if you _don't_ know that "India" is the name of a character.
"India was being pursued across space and time by agents of the
evil..." I forget who. Now isn't the thought of an entire subcontinent
fleeing through the dimensions just wonderful?
riot nrrrd
Frossie (fro...@jach.hawaii.edu) somehow managed to write:
: Hero/ine stumbles on dark secret and now evil forces
<snip>
: themes (nuclear or ecological catastrophe, sexual
: politics). Post-apocalyptic themes.
In all that, you missed "Names that can't possibly be pronounced
out loud"
--
73 de Dave Weingart KB2CWF "Can you find the Valium?
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Can you bring it soon?
mailto:phyd...@emerald.princeton.edu Lost Johnny's out there
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux Baying at the Moon"
-- Hawkwind
BY SENDING UNSOLICTED, COMMERCIAL SPAM EMAIL TO THIS ADDRESS, YOU HEREBY
AGREE TO RECEIVE UP TO 20 MEGABYTES OF RANDOM CORE DUMP INFORMATION.
Joel Benford
Frossie wrote:
>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
I'm sure there's a Niven fantasy story a bit like this. Something about the
edge of the world and falling off it.
n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
-- Joel
_________
But in intensity, in the flashing light of what-humans-can-know (and really what else is there?) we were glorious.
-- "The Day The Dam Broke", Kathleen Ann Goonan
John Boston
In article <54q46r$t...@panix2.panix.com>, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) writes:
> Jo Walton (J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> [. . .]
>
> : "India was being pursued across space and time by agents of the
> : evil..." I forget who. Now isn't the thought of an entire subcontinent
> : fleeing through the dimensions just wonderful?
>
> Those are the *Economy* sized spindizzies! (And they work such wonders
> with miniaturization nowadays, too.) :-)
>
> Of course, this would explain certain bits of Hindu mythology. :-)
What's wrong with you? Never heard of continental drift? This is obviously
a novel with a long time scale.
John Boston
rsf...@uncg.edu
In article <846220...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>X-Mail2News-User: J...@kenjo.demo,
J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) writes:
>My favourite one of this is on Kathleen Starbuck's _India's Story_ -
>it's clearly a blurb for a much more imaginative and interesting
>book if you _don't_ know that "India" is the name of a character.
>
>"India was being pursued across space and time by agents of the
>evil..." I forget who. Now isn't the thought of an entire subcontinent
>fleeing through the dimensions just wonderful?
Must need a *lot* of spindizzies, then? (How many did Amalfi need to take that
planet out for a drive?)
---
Rob Furr's .sig is at http://www.uncg.edu/~rsfurr/
rsf...@uncg.edu
In article <32752761...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk (Joel
Benford) writes:
>Frossie wrote:
>
>>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
>>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
>I'm sure there's a Niven fantasy story a bit like this. Something about the
>edge of the world and falling off it.
There's a Borges story vaguely like this. Don't recall a Niven story which even
loosely approximates it.
>n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
If the theocracy did that it would not be, by definition, a christian
fundamentalist government; part of the spec of christian fundamentalism is "The
Bible Is Right! And Any Unfortunate Facts To The Contrary Are Wrong."
Gary Farber
: "India was being pursued across space and time by agents of the
: evil..." I forget who. Now isn't the thought of an entire subcontinent
: fleeing through the dimensions just wonderful?
Those are the *Economy* sized spindizzies! (And they work such wonders
with miniaturization nowadays, too.) :-)
Of course, this would explain certain bits of Hindu mythology. :-)
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1996 Brooklyn, NY, USA
Sysop, Reinventing America II
Visit http://www.pathfinder.com/reinventing and play along.
Andrew Hackard
Celia Malm <per...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[re B5 novels]
>Well, I read one by S.M. Stirling which was really pretty good.
"The Touch of Your Shadow, The Whisper of Your Name"
Ack. Blech. I expected better from Stirling. YMODV (obviously does).
James Nicoll
In article <846220...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>My favourite one of this is on Kathleen Starbuck's _India's Story_ -
>it's clearly a blurb for a much more imaginative and interesting
>book if you _don't_ know that "India" is the name of a character.
>
>evil..." I forget who. Now isn't the thought of an entire subcontinent
>fleeing through the dimensions just wonderful?
Spindizzies work better the larger the spaceship. The tsunamis
as India took off did Bad Things to all of the coastlines on the Indian
and Pacific Ocean, which is why folks were chasing India.
Oh, and if the dinosaurs thought the Deccan Traps were bad,
they should have seen the effects of ripping a subcontinent off the
planet...
James Nicoll
--
" The moral, if you're a scholar don't pick up beautiful babes on deserted
lanes at night. Real Moral, Chinese ghost stories have mostly been written
by scholars who have some pretty strange fantasies about women."
Brian David Phillips
James Nicoll
In article <32752761...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>,
Joel Benford <jo...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>Frossie wrote:
>
>>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
>>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
>
>I'm sure there's a Niven fantasy story a bit like this. Something about the
>edge of the world and falling off it.
>
>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
They'll have a hard time being both fundamentalists and good
biologists: ripping evolution out of biology is like saying "OK, you
can research all the physics you want, but don't use that F = MA equation,
'cause it's heretical."
Oh, and Young Earthers have serious problems with astronomy
geology and physics as well (Not that all fundamentalists are YECs).
That also might have problematical effects on doing basic science,
judging by the "creation science" found over on talk.origins.
I think for the story to work, US fundamentalism would have
to make some, heh, fundamental changes in how it judges information.
I'm not sure it would still be based on the Fundamentals anymore.
Peter H. Granzeau
>In article <54gg2j$3...@inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com>
>Anne B., nri...@us.oracle.com writes:
>>Well, unlike some folks, I don't mind trilogies et al;
>>there's some good things it takes more than one book
>>to say. However, it's true that "Book Two of..." puts me
>>off unless I can find Book One.
>
>What's even worse is finding "The New Book In..." with no
>way of knowing which book is Book One. Like, what order do
>LM Bujold's books actually go in?
Easy, Publication order (that's the order I read them in).
Ross Smith
Proven pretty conclusively by David Langford. :-)
--
Ross Smith (Wellington, New Zealand) ...... <mailto:al...@netlink.co.nz>
......... <http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/3699/> ..........
"The duke had a mind that ticked like a clock and, like a clock, it
regularly went cuckoo." -- Terry Pratchett (Wyrd Sisters)
David Goldfarb
Andrew Hackard <hac...@freeside.fc.net> wrote:
)Celia Malm <per...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
)[re B5 novels]
)
)>Well, I read one by S.M. Stirling which was really pretty good.
)
)"The Touch of Your Shadow, The Whisper of Your Name"
)
)Ack. Blech. I expected better from Stirling. YMODV (obviously does).
No, that was the one by Neal Barrett, Jr. Stirling's was the
next one in the series. (Haven't read it myself.)
David Goldfarb <*>|"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | uncertainty!"
aste...@slip.net | -- Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | Guide to the Galaxy_
David Goldfarb
William P Setzer <William...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
) Nikki? Kirina? Hoffman (_Thread That Binds the Bones_)
Close -- Nina Kirki Hoffman.
Based on the list of authors you like, btw, I'd recommend
trying Steven Brust.
David Goldfarb <*>|
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Typos in _Finnegans Wake_? How could you tell?"
aste...@slip.net | -- Kim Stanley Robinson
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
David Goldfarb
William P Setzer <William...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
) Nikki? Kirina? Hoffman (_Thread That Binds the Bones_)
Close -- Nina Kiriki Hoffman.
Joel Benford
rsf...@uncg.edu wrote:
>In article <32752761...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk (Joel
>Benford) writes:
>>Frossie wrote:
>>>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
>>>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
>>I'm sure there's a Niven fantasy story a bit like this. Something about the
>>edge of the world and falling off it.
>There's a Borges story vaguely like this. Don't recall a Niven story which even
>loosely approximates it.
I'm pretty (very) sure about the Niven, but there was a terrible day five
years ago when I had to throw eighty percent of my books in a skip (I think
they're called dumpsters in the States). Some other people seem to remember
it, hopefully we'll get a name. Well well, my first ID request on r.a.sf.w.
>>n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
>>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
>If the theocracy did that it would not be, by definition, a christian
>fundamentalist government; part of the spec of christian fundamentalism is "The
>Bible Is Right! And Any Unfortunate Facts To The Contrary Are Wrong."
Short answer: agreed.
Long answer: see my response to James Nicoll.
Free additional answer: I felt that christianity in general and
fundamentalists in particular are a sort of inverted sacred cow to SF's
readership; and the readership responds to any mention on autopilot without
taking much notice of context or subtext.
Joel Benford
Joel Benford wrote:
<on inversions of SF cliches>
>>n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
>>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
James Nicoll wrote:
> They'll have a hard time being both fundamentalists and good
>biologists: ripping evolution out of biology is like saying "OK, you
>can research all the physics you want, but don't use that F = MA equation,
>'cause it's heretical."
> Oh, and Young Earthers have serious problems with astronomy
>geology and physics as well (Not that all fundamentalists are YECs).
>That also might have problematical effects on doing basic science,
>judging by the "creation science" found over on talk.origins.
> I think for the story to work, US fundamentalism would have
>to make some, heh, fundamental changes in how it judges information.
>I'm not sure it would still be based on the Fundamentals anymore.
Oh, I do agree old chap. I overdid it to make a point. I was really getting
at a couple of things:
Firstly, SF knee jerk "evil and usually corrupt christian dictatorship
stifles America until rationalists overthrow it" has been done enough times.
I'm an atheist who got into trouble for not going to chapel at school, but
as a story it's past it's sell by date unless you throw in something else to
make it interesting (cf Mick Farren, "The Armageddon Crazy").
Secondly, whilst it's unlikely that something benevolent of this ilk might
come about it's not impossible. If somebody did come up with a plausible
what/how story then it might be quite interesting.
As you pointed out, they'd have to tone down the fundamentalism. [Drum
roll...] I saw this in the Economist's "Politics This Week" section:
The Vatican at last admitted that evolution is "more than just a
hypothesis". But, the pope added, it still does not apply to the soul.
Imagine an alternate history where the Greeks came up with evolution and
Mendelian genetics instead of spontaneous generation, with demonstrable
successes in the scientific breeding of goats. The council of somewhere in
about 150 AD decided to go with the vatican's decision of last week, or
maybe big J preached it that way from the start. The medieval church took
the Greek philosophers as gospel on science (not for the first time) and
sponsored astronomy, plough design, printing presses, the scientific
method... Accepted doctrine circa 1750 is that God planted a soul in homo
something-or-other in the garden of Eden around 10000 BC.
Somebody will probably come up with an example story.
-- Joel
________
"I was walking the telephone wires upside-down, the sky underfoot cold and flat with a few hard bright stars sparsely scattered about it, when I thought how it would take only an instant's weakness to step off the side and fall up forever into the night. A kind of wildness entered me then and I began to run."
- "Radio Waves", Michael Swanwick
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <327950e8...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk
says...
>
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> I think for the story to work, US fundamentalism would have
>>to make some, heh, fundamental changes in how it judges information.
>>I'm not sure it would still be based on the Fundamentals anymore.
>
>Oh, I do agree old chap. I overdid it to make a point. I was really getting
>at a couple of things:
>
>Firstly, SF knee jerk "evil and usually corrupt christian dictatorship
>stifles America until rationalists overthrow it" has been done enough
times.
>I'm an atheist who got into trouble for not going to chapel at school, but
>as a story it's past it's sell by date unless you throw in something else
to
>make it interesting (cf Mick Farren, "The Armageddon Crazy").
But you don't HAVE real Fundamentalists over there. It's easy for you
to say that the idea's been overused; you don't have the real thing
interfering in your everyday life. The most crazed high-church Anglican
imaginable isn't half so loony or dangerous as people we have in elected
positions in government. The mere fact that you can mention the Vatican
in this context demonstrates a deep misunderstanding -- American
Fundamentalists don't believe Catholics are Christian at all, and often
suspect the Pope of being the anti-Christ. Fundamentalism came out of the
anti-Papist Know-Nothing Dispensationalist hysteria of the 19th century,
not any REAL church.
One's tolerance for attacks on these people is a lot higher when they're
meddling in your kids' schools.
--
For information on Lawrence Watt-Evans, finger -l lawr...@clark.net
or see The Misenchanted Page at http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/
The Horror Writers Association Page is at http://www.horror.org/HWA/
Joel Benford
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
<snip>
>But you don't HAVE real Fundamentalists over there. It's easy for you
>to say that the idea's been overused; you don't have the real thing
>interfering in your everyday life. The most crazed high-church Anglican
>imaginable isn't half so loony or dangerous as people we have in elected
>positions in government.
Crazed high church Anglicans marching across the village green waving
sinister cucumber sandwiches... Ok, fair point, it's not the same.
> The mere fact that you can mention the Vatican
>in this context demonstrates a deep misunderstanding -- American
>Fundamentalists don't believe Catholics are Christian at all, and often
>suspect the Pope of being the anti-Christ. Fundamentalism came out of
>the anti-Papist Know-Nothing Dispensationalist hysteria of the 19th
>century, not any REAL church.
Whoah there, I'm on your side ;-). I have _some_ grasp of events across
the pond, please. The bit about the Vatican related to the whimsical
alternate history I mentioned straight afterwards, not current or future
USA's. Fundamentalism is one of the things that saddens me about the US,
along with the budget deficit and school kids swearing allegiance to the
flag every morning.
>One's tolerance for attacks on these people is a lot higher when they're
>meddling in your kids' schools.
Books arguing against fundamentalism are fine by me. If somebody were to
write a brilliant argument using some bog standard speculative fiction as
a vehicle then so be it. But the interest, to me, would be in the
brilliant argument rather than the bog standard SF. [Ok, you could say
that the brilliant argument lifts the SF out of the ordinary by
definition, but you know what I mean. I hope.]
-- Joel, doing his best to stay on topic <G>.
Steve Patterson
In article <54vdf7$l...@agate.berkeley.edu>, gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) says:
>
>Andrew Hackard <hac...@freeside.fc.net> wrote:
>)Celia Malm <per...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>)[re B5 novels]
>)
>)>Well, I read one by S.M. Stirling which was really pretty good.
>)
>)"The Touch of Your Shadow, The Whisper of Your Name"
>)
>)Ack. Blech. I expected better from Stirling. YMODV (obviously does).
>
> No, that was the one by Neal Barrett, Jr. Stirling's was the
>next one in the series. (Haven't read it myself.)
Stirling's B5 novel is _Betrayals_, and is acceptable reading though not
up to what I'd hoped for. You don't come away with a sense of wonder, or
with any really strong impression, but you don't come away with a strong
urge to burn it and self-induce a case of amnesia either...
(... unlike _The Touch of Your Shadow, The Whisper of Your Name_, which did.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Steven J. Patterson spatt...@wwdc.com
W.O.R.L.D.'S....S..L..O..W..E..S..T....W...R...I...T...E...R
"Men may move mountains, but ideas move men."
-- M.N. Vorkosigan, per L.M. Bujold
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <327950e8...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>,
Joel Benford <jo...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>Joel Benford wrote:
><on inversions of SF cliches>
>>>n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
>>>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>>>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
>
>James Nicoll wrote:
>> They'll have a hard time being both fundamentalists and good
>>biologists: ripping evolution out of biology is like saying "OK, you
>>can research all the physics you want, but don't use that F = MA equation,
>>'cause it's heretical."
>Secondly, whilst it's unlikely that something benevolent of this ilk might
>come about it's not impossible. If somebody did come up with a plausible
>what/how story then it might be quite interesting.
>
>As you pointed out, they'd have to tone down the fundamentalism. [Drum
>roll...] I saw this in the Economist's "Politics This Week" section:
>
> The Vatican at last admitted that evolution is "more than just a
> hypothesis". But, the pope added, it still does not apply to the soul.
This doesn't mean anything for fundamentalists, who are a subdivision of
Protestants who couldn't care less about the Pope; they may be a uniquely
American phenomenon, but they're not going to become less fundamental
anytime soon - and if they did, well, they wouldn't be fundamentalists
anymore.
>maybe big J preached it that way from the start. The medieval church took
>the Greek philosophers as gospel on science (not for the first time) and
>sponsored astronomy, plough design, printing presses, the scientific
>method... Accepted doctrine circa 1750 is that God planted a soul in homo
>something-or-other in the garden of Eden around 10000 BC.
Christian fundamentalism, in its modern context, could not exist in such a
universe - this would be a (rather interesting) alternate history, rather
than a twisting of the cliche about fundamentalists.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Michael Jennings
In article <uxsp7bs...@pa.jach.hawaii.edu>,
Frossie <fro...@jach.hawaii.edu> wrote:
> "James" == James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> writes:
>
>
>James> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>James> indications that make people put books back on bookstore
>James> shelves?
>
>Hero/ine stumbles on dark secret and now evil forces
>saves the world. Any collaborations between a famous and an unknown
>author. Any blurb by over-rated author (eg Gibson). Blurbs by
>individuals known to be friends (eg Powers - Blaylock). Any
>description relying on names (eg "Ignda of the Strywadill knew the
>coming of the Blogodoroth could only mean the Frawdergu prophecy was
ROTFL.
>
>Great idea ! I'd like to see:
>
>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
>
>2/ Hacker cracks a powerful company's security to find that as well
>as their publically declared biochemical stockholdings they in
>fact secretly fund soup kitchens and shelters across the nation.
>
>3/ Aliens reach the earth. All communication is done through official
>UN channels - no rogue scientists, evil dictators, dancers, policemen
>or other members of the public are involved.
>
>4/ A Diskworld novel with no jokes in it.
>
This is kind of like the list of things that never happen
in Startrek. This isn't really the group for it so I won't post it,
but it is full of things like:
'The Enterprise visits a team of scientists on a remote
planet. The scientists are all perfectly okay'.
Michael.
--
Michael Jennings
Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics
The University of Cambridge.
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/mjj12 mj...@amtp.cam.ac.uk
"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
defence of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts
than reason" -- Tom Paine.
Michael Jennings
In article <54pfv1$f...@xanadu.io.com>,
Niccolo Machiavelli <nigh...@io.com> wrote:
>In article <326B44...@earthlink.net>,
>Mark Kreighbaum <mkrei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>William P Setzer wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Sure. I noticed that I never seemed to read any of the books that
>>> always got nominated/won the major SF awards, so I went out and picked
>>De gustibus, naturally. But I think it's useful to name a few other Nebula-winning
>>novels, many still in print and well-regarded by s.f. readers...
>> ENDER'S GAME (Orson Scott Card)
>> THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS (Ursula K. Le Guin)
>
> Which leads to my pet theory that if you put the ansible in your
>book, you too will get a Nebula award.
>
write a book with an ansible in it that is also an utterly splendid
piece of writing in most ways imaginable, you will get a Nebula.
Your mileage may vary, however.
John S. Novak, III
>As you pointed out, they'd have to tone down the fundamentalism. [Drum
>roll...] I saw this in the Economist's "Politics This Week" section:
> The Vatican at last admitted that evolution is "more than just a
> hypothesis". But, the pope added, it still does not apply to the soul.
I heard that in a news clip the other day, and was trying to figure
why exactly it was such a big deal. The Catholic Church has _never_
(to my knowledge, certainly not in my lifetime) had a real problem
with Catholics believeing in evolution, so long as they don't start
talking about the evolution of the soul.
Grief, I went to a Catholic high school, and we were never taught
anything resembling Creationism. In biology classes, we were taught
strict evolutionism and nothing but. In the theology classes, we were
taught how to take the creation accounts as metaphors, not literal
truth.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
Lawrence Watt-Evans
In article <327fa86a...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk
says...
>
>Crazed high church Anglicans marching across the village green waving
>sinister cucumber sandwiches... Ok, fair point, it's not the same.
It's a pretty funny image, though...
>Fundamentalism is one of the things that saddens me about the US,
>along with the budget deficit and school kids swearing allegiance to the
>flag every morning.
For what it's worth, reciting the Pledge is now optional at my kids'
schools. This is progress, I think.
>>One's tolerance for attacks on these people is a lot higher when they're
>>meddling in your kids' schools.
>
>Books arguing against fundamentalism are fine by me. If somebody were to
>write a brilliant argument using some bog standard speculative fiction as
>a vehicle then so be it. But the interest, to me, would be in the
>brilliant argument rather than the bog standard SF. [Ok, you could say
>that the brilliant argument lifts the SF out of the ordinary by
>definition, but you know what I mean. I hope.]
I can see this. My point was just that while knee-jerk attacks on
Fundamentalists may get tedious for people outside the U.S., they're
still pretty satisfying here because we still have to live with those
bozos.
Rowan T. Hamilton
lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes:
[...]
>I can see this. My point was just that while knee-jerk attacks on
>Fundamentalists may get tedious for people outside the U.S., they're
>still pretty satisfying here because we still have to live with those
>bozos.
I understand this statement. I understand the context of this statement.
And about five years ago I would have agreed with this statement.
However, in the last few years I have met a number (well, two) self-described
Fundamentalist Christians who were very warm, decent, and non-proseletyzing
individuals. One wanted only to provide a good home life for his children,
while the other was putting in many hours of community service (while in
graduate school) in order to make this country a better place. Both were
very intelligent physicists, and very good friends as well. (This coming
from a devout atheist physicist, raised in a rabidly atheist academic
family.)
So, I guess my point is as follows: Ragging on all Fundamentalist Christians
just because you don't like a dangerous kook like Pat Robertson or Ralph
Reed is just like ragging on all Moslems just because you don't like Hamas.
(It was a Pakistani friend of mine in graduate school who pointed out the
systematic villainization of all Moslems that goes on in the American media.
I am indebted to him for this.)
Anyway, call EndOfRant().
begin SFContent:
I'm reading Dick's _Ubik_ for the first time - excellent book.
It occurs to me that a very interesting compare-and-contrast could be written
(undergrad thesis, maybe?) about _Ubik_ and Lem's _Futurological Congress_.
One parodies the West, while the other parodies the East; one travels
backwards, while the other travels forwards in time, etc. A buddy of mine
asserts that _U_ is much more complicated than _FC_, but I'm not convinced.
Oh well, maybe this has already been done...
--
Rowan T. Hamilton "To dig this is to groove on
rha...@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu hella shit."
hami...@fnal.gov - ca...@wackenhut.com
http://hahn.fnal.gov/Hamilton.html
Robert A. Woodward
In article <32754495...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk
(Joel Benford) wrote:
> rsf...@uncg.edu wrote:
>
> >In article <32752761...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk (Joel
> >Benford) writes:
>
> >>Frossie wrote:
>
> >>>1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
> >>>person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
>
> >>I'm sure there's a Niven fantasy story a bit like this. Something about the
> >>edge of the world and falling off it.
>
> >There's a Borges story vaguely like this. Don't recall a Niven story which
> >even loosely approximates it.
>
> I'm pretty (very) sure about the Niven, but there was a terrible day five
> years ago when I had to throw eighty percent of my books in a skip (I think
> they're called dumpsters in the States). Some other people seem to remember
> it, hopefully we'll get a name. Well well, my first ID request on r.a.sf.w.
>
I don't remember the author, but I do remember a story along this line:
There had been a revolution in the Kingdom at the Edge of the World. The
defeated King (and his court), while on their way to exile, meet the head
of the revolution. The ex-King tells the said head that he will have to
worry about feeding the dragon that lives under the edge (feeding the
dragon was the reason for the high taxes that sparked the revolt, all of
this had been top-secret). I am not certain if the ex-King was telling the
truth.
<snip>
Michael Jennings
In article <54ft3u$18...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, <BLANG@> wrote:
>In <548dgp$i...@universe.digex.net>, nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
><snip>
>>Any non-historical Drake. Anything by Piers Anthony (I haven't
>>read Patricia Anthony).
><snip>
>
>I second that one. How is it that the As are invariably filled with his
>slush? Does anyone out there buy his stuff? Somehow, you get to the
>As and there is an entire shelf full of Piers Anthony.
>
>(Of course, maybe it's full because NO ONE is buying his stuff.)
>
>Besides avoiding Anthony, the other big turnoff for me is ugly covers.
>
That's an interesting comment, and one I don't hear much.
I virtually never buy books that I haven't heard of. (This generally
means that I normally walk into a bookshop with the specific purpose
of buying a particular book. The arrangement of bookstores generally doesn't
suit my habits but that is another point). This means that I am never
influenced into buying a book by what is on the cover. On the other hand,
if a book has a cover that I would be ashamed to see on my bookshelf,
then I will sometimes not buy a book that I intended to buy. (This
most normally applies to books with attractive females on the cover
for no readily apparent reason). Therefore, the only effects that
cover art ever has on my book buying are negative, not positive.
Anyone else like this?
Michael Jennings
In article <54bmd6$7...@herald.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>In <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
>
>> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>
>o A preponderance of Celtic influence. There has been a recent
>fad (which _seems_ to be over, but may simply be in slight remission)
>during which it seemed that at least one in every four new books being
>published were laden with cheesy-looking Celtic elements, because the
>Celts were currntly in vogue.
>
>o Any book or series which is an outgrowth of a role-playing
>game.
>
>o ...Or a computer game.
>
>o ...Or, for chrissakes, a card game.
>
>o ...Or a television program.
>
On the other hand, if it's from a a radio program it may well be
okay. (Radio and books are media for which the words are crucial, and
one often translates well to the other. Images generally translate to
words less well, and are translated with less care).
Twirlip of Greymist
On 18 Oct 1996 13:20:49 -1000 Frossie <fro...@jach.hawaii.edu> published:
/1/ Enthusiastic questers kill dictator - who turns out to be the only
/person that was keeping a horde of demons off the land.
Niven did something like this, actually; one of his "Edge of the World"
vignettes. I really can't remember the title, but it was neat.
Merry part,
-xx- Damien R. Sullivan X-)
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <32752761...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>,
Joel Benford <jo...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>n/ America run by christian fundamentalist theocracy which improves quality
>of life, enhances individual liberty, advances science and space exploration
>and generally turns out to be quite a good thing.
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Peter H. Granzeau
On 23 Oct 1996 02:12:24 GMT, ash...@ccnet.com (Steve Henderson)
wrote:
>}> > That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>}> >indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>}>
> Muscular barbarians with small, clever thief-like companions.
Generally, when novels use someone else's invention, that's the sign
you are looking for. In this case, someone must have originated the
the situation, and one would like to know who did invent the idea?
Was it Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (basically, the GM wasn't so clever,
he spent all his time in trouble, as I remember, inasmuch as he seems
to have thought with his gonads most of the time)?
Steve Patterson
Just because I hate sweekping generalisations...
In article <550mro$f...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, M.J.Je...@amtp.cam.ac.uk (Michael Jennings) says:
>
>In article <54bmd6$7...@herald.concentric.net>,
>John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>>In <DzFzr...@novice.uwaterloo.ca> jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) writes:
>>
>>> That brings me to my question, which is, what are the subtle
>>>indications that make people put books back on bookstore shelves?
>>
>>o Any book or series which is an outgrowth of a role-playing
>>game.
>>
>>o ...Or a computer game.
>>
>>o ...Or, for chrissakes, a card game.
>>
>>o ...Or a television program.
>>
Notable (and I mean NOTABLE) exception being _A for Andromeda_, which I've
just started but find utterly fascinating. It's by Fred Hoyle and John
Elliot, printed in 1962, and "[a]s a seven-part serieal on BBC televison, this
story established popularity records. The last several installments doubled BBC's
audience, reaching 80 per cent of the viewing audience of Great Britain."
(quote from the dustjacket.)
> On the other hand, if it's from a a radio program it may well be
>okay. (Radio and books are media for which the words are crucial, and
>one often translates well to the other. Images generally translate to
>words less well, and are translated with less care).
I have a nagging suspicion that _A for A_was released on BBC radio, too...