How do "classics" read for the first time stand up?
chuck c.
An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
"classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
is classic?
For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the sf
community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
in my early years) is not so readable now.
Curious,
CC
Brenda Clough
The only way to find out is to read it. A really great book has 'legs',
things that appealed to you when you were twelve but that you can enjoy
now thirty years later.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
My novel REVISE THE WORLD is now appearing at
www.bookviewcafe.com
Chuck C.
Hi Brenda,
You misssed my point...I was hoping for feedback from the ng based
on their reactions to the "classics," whatever they are.
Cheers,
CC
Mike Schilling
> Hi sf fans,
> An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years
> it
> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read
> it
> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND
> PREJUDICE
> is classic?
I reread it recently, and still loved it. The Freudianism is
over-the-top silly, but it's still funny, fast-paced and just plain
fun.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Well, I find pretty much everything I read at 12 perfectly re-readable
now, so I dunno.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Kurt Busiek
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
You seem to be unusual in that regard, though.
There's stuff I read as a kid that I'm still happy to read today, but
I'm in no hurry to reread, say, JOHNNY TREMAIN or Enid Blyton, and the
HARDY BOYS books are awful.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Jon Schild
It depends on what you read first. If the first stuff you stumbled upon
was good, then it will probably stand up. If it was a bad space-opera
that used things like "Tubes" or "Fins" for swearwords, it will probably
not stand up.
Walter Bushell
Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> chuck c. wrote:
> > Hi sf fans,
> > An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
> > issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> > was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> > for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> > "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> > is classic?
> > For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the sf
> > community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> > for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> > material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> > in my early years) is not so readable now.
> > Curious,
> > CC
>
>
> The only way to find out is to read it. A really great book has 'legs',
> things that appealed to you when you were twelve but that you can enjoy
> now thirty years later.
>
> Brenda
Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course, make
allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable Martian race
and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_, for example, is
still quite IMAO readable.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
By Klono's Tungsten Teeth!
Dorothy J Heydt
And curving carballoy claws. As for me, I was reading
science fiction as a small child (the golden age of SF is
not thirteen, it's when you find it) and that was in the late
forties and fifties. Galaxy in its good early years,
Astounding in its prime, F&SF under Boucher; juvenile and
other early-to-mid Heinlein. I didn't get hold of _The
Demolished Man_ till way later, but I read _The Stars My
Destination in serialized form and came back to myself
sitting on the floor going "Gosh, wow." Same with _Second
Foundation._ I still think those are good. I'm trying to
think of something I liked that I wouldn't like now, and all
I can think of is _The Angry Planet_ (I think that was its
name. Martians that looked like green onions).
Oh yeah, there was Coblentz's _Into Plutonian Depths_ and
Farley's _The Radio Man_, both of which I read at <counts on
fingers> eight or so and liked then, but wouldn't now. But
then they were *early* early pulps from the 20s and 30s.
Still, I think what the OP was asking about was works from
the Golden Age that people have recently read for the first
time recently, and what they thought.
Hm. I did read the Lensman series for the first time at the
age of 24. Does that count? I thought they were great,
though the style was silly in places.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Butch Malahide
> I'm trying to
> think of something I liked that I wouldn't like now, and all
> I can think of is _The Angry Planet_ (I think that was its
> name. Martians that looked like green onions).
It is _The Angry Planet_ by John Keir Cross. One of the first sci-fi
books I read, I haven't read it lately but I suspect it would hold up.
It was an "early influence" on David Drake--a sci-fi writer,
apparently; can't say I've read anything by him--who reviews it here:
http://www.david-drake.com/early.html
Christopher Henrich
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
For one terribly confusing moment I applied your second sentence to
/Pride and Prejudice/.
Much of what I read in my early teens seems good today, though often for
quite different reasons. In particular, I often missed the humor. I
took Anthony Boucher's "Sriberdigibit" as a serious tale of a man who
has to solve a difficult problem.
And much of what I read back then has gotten moldy. I loved the great
big anthologies, such as those edited by Groff Conklin. But I have found
a few in the library and reread them with disappointment.
--
Christopher J. Henrich
chen...@monmouth.com
http://www.mathinteract.com
"A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver." -- Boon
Dorothy J Heydt
Christopher Henrich <chen...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>In article <h6s90c$smg$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> chuck c. wrote:
>> > Hi sf fans,
>> > An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
>> > issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years
>> > it
>> > was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read
>> > it
>> > for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
>> > "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND
>> > PREJUDICE
>> > is classic?
>>
>> I reread it recently, and still loved it. The Freudianism is
>> over-the-top silly, but it's still funny, fast-paced and just plain
>> fun.
>
>For one terribly confusing moment I applied your second sentence to
>/Pride and Prejudice/.
>
>Much of what I read in my early teens seems good today, though often for
>quite different reasons. In particular, I often missed the humor. I
>took Anthony Boucher's "Sriberdigibit" as a serious tale of a man who
>has to solve a difficult problem.
Instead of an hommage to W. S. Gilbert.
>And much of what I read back then has gotten moldy. I loved the great
>big anthologies, such as those edited by Groff Conklin. But I have found
>a few in the library and reread them with disappointment.
I have several of them, and they're good in parts. Better
than the curate's egg, but uneven.
Mike Schilling
> There's stuff I read as a kid that I'm still happy to read today,
> but
> I'm in no hurry to reread, say, JOHNNY TREMAIN or Enid Blyton, and
> the
> HARDY BOYS books are awful.
1. Hal Mayne
3. Johnny Tremain
4. Allen Quatermain or Paul Formain
But we're missing the entry for 2.
Mike Schilling
>
> Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course,
> make allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable
> Martian race and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_,
> for
> example, is still quite IMAO readable.
I could read _Between Planets_ over and over, because I know I've read
it at least three times, and I still barely remember a word of it.
Ahasuerus
wrote:
> Kurt Busiek wrote:
> > There's stuff I read as a kid that I'm still happy to read today,
> > but
> > I'm in no hurry to reread, say, JOHNNY TREMAIN or Enid Blyton, and
> > the
> > HARDY BOYS books are awful.
>
> 1. Hal Mayne
> 3. Johnny Tremain
> 4. Allen Quatermain or Paul Formain
All*a*n.
> But we're missing the entry for 2.
Will Saint-Germain work?
Mike Schilling
I must be missing something. In what language is "ger" two?
Ahasuerus
Oh, I see what you are doing! Never mind then, carry on! (Since my
contribution was clearly not, um, germane...)
Mike Schilling
Yeah, a shame it wasn't two-tonic.
aaron
"chuck c." <cunn...@jmu.edu> wrote in message
news:0cefe034-d600-4515...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
I originally read Foundation in the late seventies as a teen and even given
the anachronistic technology it held up well. Though I have not read it in
decades in the day I re-read it so many times so as to have parts indelibly
etched in my memory.
Same thing for Dune but a little later. A few years back I looked up a
passage to verify some point being debated and I found it seemed
decidedly... well.... badly written. By that I mean I found the narration
over-the-top melodramatic even for a melodrama. I don't know if my tastes
changed with maturity or any work idealized in the formative years would
seem so from the perspective of and old fogey forty something.
One thing that has changed is that even something if it is something I like
I rarely [pretty much never] re-read books.
Bill Patterson
You can get a bit of that in some of the reader reaction on
amazon.com. There are a number of first-timers posting for any given
work.
Walter Bushell
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Does Sir Isaac Newton (a multi ton Venerian Dragon) ring a bell? A
colonial revolt and a coming of age story? Anyway it has a nice ring to
it.
Mike Schilling
Sure, but that's about it, unless the vast amount of trivia I recall
about most of the RAH juvies.
Christopher Henrich
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >Much of what I read in my early teens seems good today, though often for
> >quite different reasons. In particular, I often missed the humor. I
> >took Anthony Boucher's "Sriberdigibit" as a serious tale of a man who
> >has to solve a difficult problem.
>
> Instead of an hommage to W. S. Gilbert.
Heavens to Betsy. Can you be more specific - e.g., which work of
Sullivan's?
Dorothy J Heydt
Christopher Henrich <chen...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>In article <KoutB...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> >Much of what I read in my early teens seems good today, though often for
>> >quite different reasons. In particular, I often missed the humor. I
>> >took Anthony Boucher's "Sriberdigibit" as a serious tale of a man who
>> >has to solve a difficult problem.
>>
>> Instead of an hommage to W. S. Gilbert.
>
>Heavens to Betsy. Can you be more specific - e.g., which work of
>Sullivan's?
Oh, sorry. I assumed you'd know. It's the major plot
element in _Ruddigore._ It's explained early in the first
act:
HANNAH. Sir Rupert Murgatroyd
His leisure and his riches
He ruthlessly employed
In persecuting witches.
With fear he'd make them quake--
He'd duck them in his lake--
He'd break their bones
With sticks and stones,
And burn them at the stake!
CHORUS. This sport he much enjoyed,
Did Rupert Murgatroyd--
No sense of shame
Or pity came
To Rupert Murgatroyd!
HANNAH. Once, on the village green,
A palsied hag he roasted,
And what took place, I ween,
Shook his composure boasted;
For, as the torture grim
Seized on each withered limb,
The writhing dame
'Mid fire and flame
Yelled forth this curse on him:
"Each lord of Ruddigore,
Despite his best endeavour,
Shall do one crime, or more,
Once, every day, for ever!
This doom he can't defy,
However he may try,
For should he stay
His hand, that day
In torture he shall die!"
The prophecy came true:
Each heir who held the title
Had, every day, to do
Some crime of import vital;
Until, with guilt o'erplied,
"I'll sin no more!" he cried,
And on the day
He said that say,
In agony he died!
CHORUS. And thus, with sinning cloyed,
Has died each Murgatroyd,
And so shall fall,
Both one and all,
Each coming Murgatroyd!
And the way out of the dilemma is the same as in
"Sriberdigibit."
David DeLaney
...okay, that works. We just have to put an asterisk after the 2, so people
will ask.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>It is _The Angry Planet_ by John Keir Cross. One of the first sci-fi
>books I read, I haven't read it lately but I suspect it would hold up.
>It was an "early influence" on David Drake--a sci-fi writer,
>apparently; can't say I've read anything by him--who reviews it here:
>http://www.david-drake.com/early.html
Sci-fi and fantasy; most of what I have by him, including the Lord of the
Isles series, is fantasy, but he also writes war SF if I recall correctly.
Sea Wasp has shared a four-piece book with him already.
Mike Stone
> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> is classic?
> community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> in my early years) is not so readable now.
> ? ?CC
It probably helps if the science - real or pseudo - isn't too important to
the plot.
I read _First Lensman_ and _The Skylark of Space_ around age 11/12, and
loved them. However, I didn't pick up the rest of those series until I was
in my twenties, and found the Lensman's only so-so, while the Skylarks (and
the rest of Smith) were almost unreadable.
By contrast, Eric Frank Russell, whom I encountered at around the same age
(or even younger) is as enjoyable now as ever. So is _Earth Abides_ and
Leigh Brackett's _The Long Tomorrow_. Poul Anderson has also worn quite
well, though I notice it's his shorts and novelettes - "The Last Monster",
"The Helping Hand" "Flight to Forever" - that stick with me better than his
novels. I concur with what has been said about Heinlein.
It can be interesting to notice changes of attitude toward some stories.
Frex, I encountered Walter M Miller's "The Big Hunger" at about 12 - and
absolutely hated it. The human race, as portrayed, seemed a total bunch of
bastards deserving only extermination. Coming back to it at about 17, I
found I wasn't half so bothered. I'd evidently toughened up a bit during
adolescence. Similarly, reading EA at age 10, I was furious with Stewart for
killing off Joey, who was (surprise, surprise) my favourite character.
Rereading in later life, I could see the logic of it. Ish's notions of
education were still running along pre-Disaster lines - traditional academic
stuff totally irrelevant to the world he now lived in. So it wasn't
surprising that his only success was with a kid who would have been a total
misfit in that world. Only after Joey's death did Ish start relating with
the post-disaster generation on its own terms, and get down to stuff of
practical value to them, like making bows and arrows.
Perhaps the extreme case was with Russell's _Sentinels From Space_ . I read
that _very_ early - I think I was only eight or nine. At that age, of
course, I read it as a straightforward adventure story, and was quite
surprised, years later, to discover the twist at the end - the
caterpiller/butterrfly thing - which I had entirely missed.
Michael Grosberg
> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> is classic?
> community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> in my early years) is not so readable now.
> CC
That depends - do you want to know if the classics hold up when you
read them as an adult, or when a teen reads them in 2009?
I read most of these in my teens back in the late 80's and early 90's
and loved most of them except for the Heinlein Juveniles which were
badly dated. I think Dune hasn't aged a bit: it is so far removed from
our own time and culture that it will remain a classic for years to
come. Bester's books are still dazzling and energetic IMO.
The only "classic" I read as an adult was Van Vogt's World of Null-A
and its sequel. I don't want to say it aged - rather, it was bad to
begin with. I think it received some harsh words at the time.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course, make
>allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable Martian race
>and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_, for example, is
>still quite IMAO readable.
Nowadays we are used to SF in a universe which we really don't believe
will happen. (FTL, lots of Earth like worlds with Earth like life,
etc).
It's interesting that near future SF tends to be very different from
hear & now, while far future SF tends to be our culture.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
cryptoguy
> Hi sf fans,
> An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> is classic?
> For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the sf
> community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> in my early years) is not so readable now.
> Curious,
> CC
It wasn't a 'virgin reading', but I recently reread (or rather, re-
listened, courtesy of the BBC) to the Foundation trilogy, after a gap
of at least 30 years. I still enjoyed it, but the plot mechanics and
world building seemed implausible.
The outdated science (eg: 'atomic' everything, almost complete absence
of computers) and unlikely economics (interstellar commerce fresh
vegetables) I could forgive, but not socially unbelievable plot
points. For example, on more than one occasion, perfectly ordinary (at
least so-seeming) travelers get in to see the emperor/president/king/
viceroy of an entire planet without the slightest difficulty.
pt
hh...@thinksystem.net
Mark Twain would provide a 2, but that's more of a pen name than
character name. (And I've been happy to read and reread most all of
his stuff.)
Oh, wait, he was included as a character in one of the later
Riverworld books wasn't he? (I haven't read past the first one and
didn't care for it that much.) And, I have the impression that those
books don't get better further into the series, so maybe he does count
as a character and "in no hurry to reread".
--
-Harold Hill
aaron
"cryptoguy" <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:788d3c13-42c7-4406...@n11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> It wasn't a 'virgin reading', but I recently reread (or rather, re-
> listened, courtesy of the BBC) to the Foundation trilogy, after a gap
> of at least 30 years. I still enjoyed it, but the plot mechanics and
> world building seemed implausible.
> The outdated science (eg: 'atomic' everything, almost complete absence
> of computers) and unlikely economics (interstellar commerce fresh
> vegetables) I could forgive, but not socially unbelievable plot
> points. For example, on more than one occasion, perfectly ordinary (at
> least so-seeming) travelers get in to see the emperor/president/king/
> viceroy of an entire planet without the slightest difficulty.
If that is the scene I'm thinking of, was it not the conclusion of a series
of undetailed functionaries that the principle bribed his way to see? And
that final viceroy having become aware of this strange foriegner bribing his
way through the bureacracy wanted to meet him to satisfy his own curiousity?
OWKtree
I didn't read _The Stars My Destination_ until less than a decade ago
when in my mid-30s. For a 1957 published novel it held up *very*
well. I passed it on to my older brother who had never read it, and
he was impressed as well. (And he has tougher tastes than me in
fiction, quite willing to toss a book 50 pages in and start another.)
I went from there to read all the other Bester material I had not
previously encountered (mainly short stories), but have the general
opinion that this was the best of the bunch, and the various polls
seem to share that general opinion.
I didn't read much Heinlein early in my SF-reading career (starting
about age 12)*. So my opinion on his works as encountered has been
that he was a very good story-teller that writes prose that just reads
well. His story politics and characters I don't don't necessarily
care for that much, but that's a product of his period in history to a
certain degree.
- Kurt
*- The library I frequented had very little Heinlein in long form, so
my early exposure was to Asimov, Keith Laumer, some Poul Anderson, and
various short story/novella collections. So I saw and read Heinlein
short stories, but none of the "juvenille" novels until at least a
decade later.
Mike Stone
"Mike Stone" <mws...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7ff1jbF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I read _First Lensman_ and _The Skylark of Space_ around age 11/12, and
> loved them. However, I didn't pick up the rest of those series until I was
> in my twenties, and found the Lensman's only so-so, while the Skylarks
(and
> the rest of Smith) were almost unreadable.
>
In fairness to Doc Smith, I must add that much of what I _do_ like reminds
me of his work in various ways, eg
Anderson - _After Doomsday_, and many of his Polesotechnic League and
Flandry yarns..
ACC - _The City and the Stars_
Brin - The earlier Uplift boks, esp _Startide Rising_
RAH - _Citizen of the Galaxy_
Niven - The earlier Known Space stuff.
EFR - _Men, Martians and Machines_, _The Great Explosion_ , "Hobbyist" etc,
James White - The Sector General stories.
They all seem to have what one reviewer (L Schuyler Miller?) called "the
wild sweep of the universe of the lens" but with just a shade more
sophistication.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"Freddie experienced the sort of abysmal soul-sadness which afflicts one of
Tolstoy's Russian peasants when, after putting in a heavy day's work
strangling his father, beating his wife, and dropping the baby in the
reservoir, he turns to the cupboard only to find the vodka bottle empty".
P G Wodehouse - Jill the Reckless
Joseph Nebus
It has been several years since I read the Foundation Trilogy
last, although my impression last time around was that I was actually
rather impressed with the little touches Asimov put in that didn't have
anything to do with the plot --- throwaway character reactions and bits
of feeling attached to things like the despairing war workers among the
Free Traders after Foundation was conquered by the Mule.
Anyway, trying to think of ``ordinary folks seeing the leader'',
what comes to mind is ... not much. Salvor Hardin has his way with the
leaders of the Four Kingdoms, but he's coming as Mayor anyway. In that
extremely slight short story in _Foundation_ --- you know, the other one
that nobody thinks about --- the merchant selling atomic tissues and such
does get to meet the local potentate, but he's sent as the Foundation's
rep to clean up an earlier representative's mess and imprisonment.
Hober Mallow meets the local potentate, but he's also there to
work out a trade agreement. Fearless Leader or his designates would have
to appear at some part of the process. (I'm oddly reminded of how when
the United States sent Commodore Perry to open Japan to western trading
it sent a letter addressed to The Shogun, Emperor of Japan.)
Come _Foundation and Empire_ in the first half the protagonists
do try bribing their way into the Galactic Empire, but they're mostly
seen as amusing rubes and end up on a march into irrelevance regarding
the conflict. (The viewpoint characters being unimportant to how the
crisis is resolved turns up again in _Pebble In The Sky_; it's curious
and to some extent authentic, since the characters can't know of their
own unimportance until after the drama is concluded. Too much of it is
a bad thing, though.)
In the second half, Our Heroes get to meet the Emperor, on
Neotrantor, but he's stunningly unimportant and they have a thumb on the
scales in their favor anyway. [1]
Similarly over in _Second Foundation_ an important character
meets a Trantorian leader, but that's also not by any accident.
[1] Say ... I know that, originally, Asimov ended the Foundation
stories here by having Ebling Mis reveal the location of the Second
Foundation and having the Mule discover it. Campbell insisted he could
not end the series there. (It wouldn't have needed to be an end anyway,
in any case.) Asimov rewrote it so there'd be more stories, and did
eventually give the location of the Second Foundation.
What I've wondered is, is the location given at the end of
_Second Foundation_ the same one that was given in the original draft?
Probably there's no way to answer, but the drawing-room revelations of
answer after answer sound to me like Asimov going through successive
second thoughts. Arkady Darrel, Preem Palver, and (years later) Golan
Trevise each had good enough answers that any would be satisfactory
solutions, after all.
Probably there's no way to tell, unless it's been dug up in the
archives of Stuff Asimov Somehow Failed To Throw Out.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will in New Haven
wrote:
> Walter Bushell wrote:
> > In article <h6so32$c...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Walter Bushell wrote:
>
> >>> Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course,
> >>> make allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable
> >>> Martian race and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_,
> >>> for
> >>> example, is still quite IMAO readable.
>
> >> I could read _Between Planets_ over and over, because I know I've
> >> read it at least three times, and I still barely remember a word of
> >> it.
>
> > Does Sir Isaac Newton (a multi ton Venerian Dragon) ring a bell? A
> > colonial revolt and a coming of age story?
>
> Sure, but that's about it, unless the vast amount of trivia I recall
> about most of the RAH juvies
On the other tentacle, I remember it and re-read it quite often
because it is the first book I ever read, not counting (parts of)
textbooks. I don't think I was ever assigned an entire book to read
before eight grade and if I were I didn't read it. Then I had to work
in the library for a semester, so I picked up a book with a rocket-
ship on the spine. I liked most of his other juvies better but I won't
forget BP anytime soon.
--
Will in New Haven
JimboCat
> For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the sf
> community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
I read all of those too long ago, but I did happen to miss Zelazny's /
Lord of Light/ until I was in my 40's and it totally blew me away.
You are very right to stress "first reading". I have subsequently
found that LoL fails rather miserably to stand up to re-reading...and
I am an inveterate re-reader.
Other "classics" that I've read for the first time after my fortieth
year include the "Oz" books (surprisingly excellent!), a couple of E.E
Smiths (I knew what to expect, and was quite satisfied), and, cross-
genre, Woodehouse: what a hoot!
I'm sure there's others that I'll remember just after I click
"Send"...
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"I wouldn't have said off-hand that I had a subconscious mind, but
I suppose I must without knowing it" [Bertie Wooster]
cryptoguy
> "aaron" <aa...@night.com> writes:
> >"cryptoguy" <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I don't have the hardcopy in front of me (I listened to the 1973 BBC
dramatization, so that may also introduce inaccuracies).
In addition to the ones you list, add the visit to Kalgan's ruler to
ask for permission to look into the Mule's former palace.
This wasn't a definitive nit - it just seemed to be that there were
repeated incidences of planetary, or even imperial sovereigns getting
personally involved with unscreened people of unknown importance. The
attempt to bribe their way into the Emperor in F&E was the exception,
not the rule (and indeed, the later Emperor (on neo-Trantor) gets
personally involved in a request to visit the University Library on
Trantor).
pt
Generally, I've found Asimov's prose quite readable, if a bit clunky.
Mike Schilling
>
> The only "classic" I read as an adult was Van Vogt's World of Null-A
> and its sequel. I don't want to say it aged - rather, it was bad to
> begin with. I think it received some harsh words at the time.
I loved Null-A when I first read it (about about 12) because it was so
gosh-wow.sensawunda, hated it twenty years later because it was incoherent,
and on my last reread, about a year ago, liked it again. It's still
incoherent, but now I can appreciate its dreamlike qualities.
Mike Schilling
> On Aug 23, 8:48 pm, "Mike Schilling" <mscottschill...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>> There's stuff I read as a kid that I'm still happy to read today,
>>> but
>>> I'm in no hurry to reread, say, JOHNNY TREMAIN or Enid Blyton, and
>>> the
>>> HARDY BOYS books are awful.
>>
>> 1. Hal Mayne
>> 3. Johnny Tremain
>> 4. Allen Quatermain or Paul Formain
>>
>> But we're missing the entry for 2.
>
> Mark Twain would provide a 2, but that's more of a pen name than
> character name. (And I've been happy to read and reread most all of
> his stuff.)
Now we've got the two, but not the main.
Mike Schilling
>>
>>> Does Sir Isaac Newton (a multi ton Venerian Dragon) ring a bell? A
>>> colonial revolt and a coming of age story?
>>
>> Sure, but that's about it, unless the vast amount of trivia I recall
>> about most of the RAH juvies
>
> On the other tentacle, I remember it and re-read it quite often
> because it is the first book I ever read, not counting (parts of)
> textbooks. I don't think I was ever assigned an entire book to read
> before eight grade and if I were I didn't read it. Then I had to work
> in the library for a semester, so I picked up a book with a rocket-
> ship on the spine. I liked most of his other juvies better but I won't
> forget BP anytime soon.
I recall Around the World in 80 Days for the same reason -- first real book
I ever read.
Walter Bushell
<f3b1c25b-728d-41e0...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
The part where the Chinese restaurant owner with a savings account to
send his bones back to China decides that he is a Venerian, knifes the
invader and of course dies soon after, so that his bones do not go back
to China, was, I think, a nice touch.
Anthony Nance
Can we get both in one swell foop by using The Ptomaine Kid?
Will in New Haven
> In article
> <f3b1c25b-728d-41e0-b145-d0bd68416...@b15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Old Charlie. I'm sure there will never be a human settlement on Venus.
On the other hand, if I'm wrong about that and it lasts fifty years,
there will be a restaurant like that.
Carl Dershem
A997D0.174...@news.panix.com:
> In article <KIgkm.524$5c6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
> Brenda Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> chuck c. wrote:
>> > Hi sf fans,
>> > An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised
an
>> > issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for
years it
>> > was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I
read it
>> > for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
>> > "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND
PREJUDICE
>> > is classic?
>> > For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the
sf
>> > community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it
recently
>> > for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden
Age"
>> > material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf
writer
>> > in my early years) is not so readable now.
>> > Curious,
>> > CC
>>
>>
>> The only way to find out is to read it. A really great book has
'legs',
>> things that appealed to you when you were twelve but that you can
enjoy
>> now thirty years later.
>>
>> Brenda
>
> Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course,
make
> allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable Martian
race
> and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_, for example, is
> still quite IMAO readable.
Much of it still works well for me. I just look at (for example)
Heinlein's work as taking place in a universe where Venus was swampy,
Mars occupied by an ancient race, etc.
Others don't hold up as well. Burroughs was fun when I was 12, but
his Mars offends my sociel and aesthetic tastes. Dune bored me the
first time, and gets more boring by the volume.
You gotta do what works for you.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Carl Dershem
$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> chuck c. wrote:
>> Hi sf fans,
>> An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
>> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years
>> it
>> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read
>> it
>> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
>> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND
>> PREJUDICE
>> is classic?
>
> I reread it recently, and still loved it. The Freudianism is
> over-the-top silly, but it's still funny, fast-paced and just plain
> fun.
It's even more fun with Zombies. :D
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>I didn't read _The Stars My Destination_ until less than a decade ago
>when in my mid-30s. For a 1957 published novel it held up *very*
>well. I passed it on to my older brother who had never read it, and
>he was impressed as well. (And he has tougher tastes than me in
>fiction, quite willing to toss a book 50 pages in and start another.)
>I went from there to read all the other Bester material I had not
>previously encountered (mainly short stories), but have the general
>opinion that this was the best of the bunch, and the various polls
>seem to share that general opinion.
I highly recommend having 3 books in your Bester library. The other
two are _The Demolished Man_ and a collection of stories, _Starlight_.
The rest of his SF is non-essential.
Mark Reichert
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Jon Schild wrote:
> > chuck c. wrote:
> >> Hi sf fans,
> >> An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
> >> issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> >> was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> >> for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> >> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> >> is classic?
> >> community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> >> for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> >> material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> >> in my early years) is not so readable now.
> >> Curious,
> >> CC
>
> > was good, then it will probably stand up. If it was a bad space-opera
> > that used things like "Tubes" or "Fins" for swearwords, it will probably
> > not stand up.
>
> By Klono's Tungsten Teeth!
by grabthar's hammer
by the hoary hosts of hoggoth
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
...you SHALL be avenged!
>
> by the hoary hosts of hoggoth
>
I call forth the Shield of the Seraphim!
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Christopher Henrich
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <chenrich-3FAF5D...@feeder.eternal-september.org>,
> Christopher Henrich <chen...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> >In article <KoutB...@kithrup.com>,
> > djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >> >Much of what I read in my early teens seems good today, though often for
> >> >quite different reasons. In particular, I often missed the humor. I
> >> >took Anthony Boucher's "Sriberdigibit" as a serious tale of a man who
> >> >has to solve a difficult problem.
> >>
> >> Instead of an hommage to W. S. Gilbert.
> >
> >Heavens to Betsy. Can you be more specific - e.g., which work of
> >Sullivan's?
>
> Oh, sorry. I assumed you'd know. It's the major plot
> element in _Ruddigore._ It's explained early in the first
> act:
>
> HANNAH. Sir Rupert Murgatroyd
> His leisure and his riches
> He ruthlessly employed
> In persecuting witches.
> With fear he'd make them quake--
> He'd duck them in his lake--
> He'd break their bones
> With sticks and stones,
> And burn them at the stake!
>
> CHORUS. This sport he much enjoyed,
> Did Rupert Murgatroyd--
> No sense of shame
> Or pity came
> To Rupert Murgatroyd!
>
> HANNAH. Once, on the village green,
> A palsied hag he roasted,
> And what took place, I ween,
> Shook his composure boasted;
> For, as the torture grim
> Seized on each withered limb,
> The writhing dame
> 'Mid fire and flame
> Yelled forth this curse on him:
>
> "Each lord of Ruddigore,
> Despite his best endeavour,
> Shall do one crime, or more,
> Once, every day, for ever!
> This doom he can't defy,
> However he may try,
> For should he stay
> His hand, that day
> In torture he shall die!"
>
> The prophecy came true:
> Each heir who held the title
> Had, every day, to do
> Some crime of import vital;
> Until, with guilt o'erplied,
> "I'll sin no more!" he cried,
> And on the day
> He said that say,
> In agony he died!
>
> CHORUS. And thus, with sinning cloyed,
> Has died each Murgatroyd,
> And so shall fall,
> Both one and all,
> Each coming Murgatroyd!
>
> And the way out of the dilemma is the same as in
> "Sriberdigibit."
>
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at hotmail dot com
> Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
> Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
LOL!
I hadn't known. Obviously there's a whole new canon of things I have yo
investigate...
With thanks.
--
Christopher J. Henrich
chen...@monmouth.com
http://www.mathinteract.com
"A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver." -- Boon
Erol K. Bayburt
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
I haven't read Null-A, but there is a satire by William Tenn inspired by
it - "Null-P". Apparently about a US president Tenn had issues with.
Not among the better stories of Tenn, though. But my reaction could be
because I could not place the US president he was talking about.
--
"would a nation of blind men trust those with vision"?
- "The Piper's Son" by Henry Kuttner & C L Moore
<http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/2009/08/henry-kuttner-c-l-moore-pipers-son-as.html>
ZnU
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 17:43:58 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Heinlein's golden age material remains great. One must, of course, make
> >allowance for the science. No swamps on Venus, no venerable Martian race
> >and so on. If you can waive that, _Between Planets_, for example, is
> >still quite IMAO readable.
>
> Nowadays we are used to SF in a universe which we really don't believe
> will happen. (FTL, lots of Earth like worlds with Earth like life,
> etc).
>
> It's interesting that near future SF tends to be very different from
> hear & now, while far future SF tends to be our culture.
This may just be an artifact of categories. Near future settings that
are basically the same as the present but with neater gadgets are not
especially uncommon, but most such works aren't really considered works
of science fiction.
--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
Paul Clarke
> I read _First Lensman_ and _The Skylark of Space_ around age 11/12, and
> loved them. However, I didn't pick up the rest of those series until I was
> in my twenties, and found the Lensman's only so-so, while the Skylarks (and
> the rest of Smith) were almost unreadable.
I started reading the Lensmen series at about age 13 (beginning with
_Second Stage Lensmen_ and continuing in random order as I found
them), but didn't read any of the Skylark books until decades later. I
re-read Lensmen occasionally but not the Skylark books. Part of that
is doubtless nostalgic glow, but I do think Smith's plotting had
improved considerably by the time he wrote _Galactic Patrol_.
Chuck C.
> chuck c. wrote:
> > Hi sf fans,
> > An exchange on another thread concerning Alfred Bester raised an
> > issue for me. I first read "Demolished Man" at age 12 and for years it
> > was my favorite sf novel. I wonder how it would strike me if I read it
> > for the first time now, 50 years later? In other words, are the
> > "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> > is classic?
> > For example, take the FOUNDATION series, much-beloved by the sf
> > community (not by me); has anyone with sf experience read it recently
> > for the first time? How about DUNE, or most of Heinlein's "Golden Age"
> > material? I can certainly attest that van Vogt (my favorite sf writer
> > in my early years) is not so readable now.
> > Curious,
> > CC
>
> It depends on what you read first. If the first stuff you stumbled upon
> was good, then it will probably stand up. If it was a bad space-opera
> that used things like "Tubes" or "Fins" for swearwords, it will probably
> not stand up.
Hey Jon,
Well, it varied. Besides "Demolished Man," one of my first memories
was of a Silverberg (as "Calvin M. Knox") half of an Ace Double titled
"Lest We Forget Thee, O Earth"--pure old-fashioned space opera. I keep
meaning to reread it, 'cause it was so much fun! The same is probably
true for the old Edmond Hamilton space operas--fun if you read them
back then, pretty silly nowadays.
On the other hand, there was de Camp/Pratt's "Incomplete
Enchanter," which I loved and still like.
CC
Chuck C.
wrote:
Hi Mike,
Same here. I think Null-A (the first two, anyway) are "love-it-or-
hate-it" books. They don't stand up to critical analysis (see Damon
Knight's review in IN SEARCH OF WONDER), but if you ignore that, they
are great rides!
CC
CC
Will in New Haven
Shards and splinters, I have done nothing but wait for an explanation
of all this excitement for seventeen minutes.
Paul Harman
> In other words, are the
> "classics" still classic, in the sense, say, that PRIDE AND PREJUDICE
> is classic?
I've recently read Dracula, Frankenstein, and The Picture of Dorian
Grey. I must admit I've had a lot of dificulty getting through the
style. Dracula and tPoDG suffer from having (by today's standards)
barely a short story's worth of plot padded out to novel length by
"upper class blather". Frankenstein doesn't suffer so badly in this
respect, but it's still quite painful to read.
Paul
Mike Schilling
In complete agreement here. Note, though, that Knight was criticizing (OK,
dismantling) the magazine version of Null-A; the book version (the only one
available today) is quite different, and AFAICT less spectacularly crazy.
Michael Stemper
>Mark Reichert wrote:
>> On Aug 23, 4:57 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> By Klono's Tungsten Teeth!
>>
>> by grabthar's hammer
>
> ...you SHALL be avenged!
Is that the Unbreakable Vow?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <h6vfh7$5cd$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> Mark Reichert wrote:
>>> On Aug 23, 4:57 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>> By Klono's Tungsten Teeth!
>>> by grabthar's hammer
>> ...you SHALL be avenged!
>
> Is that the Unbreakable Vow?
>
You'd have to ask Dr. Lazarus.