Why I don't like Terry Pratchett
Majikthise
So I've been hearing all the hooha about Terry Pratchett, and, finally
lknowing someone who has many of his books, I decided to give him the
old college try.
I *really* don't like the Discworld (almost wrote Discoworld) books.
I tried 3 of them, and not only did they bore me to tears, I found the
writing rather...hmmm...pretentious. Pretentious in the Harold
Robbins style - the 'author winking at reader' type thing. Bugs the
hell out of me.
So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
Dryad
Jacob Proffitt
On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:14:47 GMT, la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise)
wrote:
> So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
>Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
>wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
>Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
>it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
Could be. I'm personally a huge fan of Terry Pratchett (and Neil Gaiman, BTW)
and find his books enormously funny. I am also a big fan of British humor,
though (Red Dwarf, Waiting for God, Faulty Towers, some Python), so I'm not a
really good representative of any kind of contrast you may be looking for.
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacob Proffitt
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | nep...@worldaccessnet.com
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~nephite
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' |
(il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | Go ahead, make my play!
Steve Smoot
I concur. If you don't like british humour, you're SOL for Prattchet.
As a Monty Python, Dr Who, etc fan, it was great for me.
But after trying 4 books, please read other stuff! You've given it your
all....
-s
Joel Benford
Majikthise wrote:
>So I've been hearing all the hooha about Terry Pratchett, and, finally
>lknowing someone who has many of his books, I decided to give him the
>old college try.
<snip>
I tried four books too, three Discworld books and "Johnny and the Dead".
I can't say I thought too much of them. The Discworld books seemed to
be an endless stream of gags which were often very good, but the whole
added up to less than the sum of the parts.
Does he ever write shorts? I think he could turn out a sensational
funny short.
"Johnny and the Dead" had more to it but it was still too thin (I don't
mean physically, it's nice to know that _somebody_ can get away with
publishing novels under 250 pages). I don't think I'm likely to enjoy
any juvie though, so maybe this is a bit unfair.
-- Joel, who does like British culture.
Sean Eric Fagan
In article <3337096a...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Majikthise <la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I *really* don't like the Discworld (almost wrote Discoworld) books.
>I tried 3 of them, and not only did they bore me to tears, I found the
>writing rather...hmmm...pretentious. Pretentious in the Harold
>Robbins style - the 'author winking at reader' type thing. Bugs the
>hell out of me.
That is what I did not like about _Soul Music_ -- because I didn't *get* the
jokes. I knew they were there, because the rest of the prose surrounding
them *demanded* that it be a joke... but I don't know enough to know what
they actually were, or what they meant.
However... _Small Gods_ is one of the best books I've ever read, of any
genre. Yeah, there's lots of humour in it (some of which is of the
slapstick variety), but there's also lots of serious stuff going on.
"Humour, with meaning," as one person stated it. And if you want to ignore
the humour, SG *still* has a very good story, and lots to say about
religion, arms races, the military, etc.
> So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
>Gaiman.
If you didn't like _Good Omens_, you probably won't enjoy *any* of his
books. (This is not to say its his best work, but it's lacking as much of
the "hey look I've just made a subtle reference to such-and-such" humour
that many of the other books have.)
On the other hand, I do highly recommend the Nome Trilogy (aka the
Bromeliad); these are _Truckers_, _Diggers_, and _Wings_. They're also
suitable for young children.
rsf...@uncg.edu
In article <333926b7...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk (Joel
Benford) writes:
>Does he ever write shorts? I think he could turn out a sensational
>funny short.
He's done a few. One's available on the 'net - check the Pratchett Archives for
it (Can't remember the name.) The other's in _After The King_, among other
places, and is called "Troll Bridge."
The thing is, the two aren't terribly funny. Oh, both are *okay*, but
Pratchett's sense of humor *doesn't* seem to function quite as well in the
shorter works. Dunno why. Perhaps it's the fact that he tends to build a gag up
over time ... it's not *just* that Carrot was a human adopted by dwarves, it
was that he was a human adopted by dwarves who grew up to be 6'6", and it
wasn't *just* that the was a human adopted by dwarves who grew up to be 6'6",
it was that he was going out with ... and so on and so forth. One small
fragment of the gag is laid down, then he drifts away for a moment, and then it
comes back into play. And the jokes where he *doesn't* do this aren't
particularly hilarious...
I dunno. If you don't think much of the extended works, you probably won't
think much of the shorter ones.
---
Rob Furr's .sig is at http://www.uncg.edu/~rsfurr/
Nicole M Bourgoin
>So I've been hearing all the hooha about Terry Pratchett, and, finally
>lknowing someone who has many of his books, I decided to give him the
>old college try.
>I *really* don't like the Discworld (almost wrote Discoworld) books.
>I tried 3 of them, and not only did they bore me to tears, I found the
>writing rather...hmmm...pretentious. Pretentious in the Harold
>Robbins style - the 'author winking at reader' type thing. Bugs the
>hell out of me.
(snip)
His later books do that more frequently if I understand you right (the
footnote thing, right?) My mileage varied greatly on reading the
Discworld novels. My three favorites being the first 2: _The Colour of
Magic_ and _The Light Fantastic_; and _Lords and Ladies_ , incidentally
the first one I read. _Sourcery_ really was bad. It was good if you
weren't expecting funny throughout the book. Hey which 3 did you read?
It's ok not to like Pratchett; humor varies among individuals. IMO the
later Discworld books (at least those commonly found in America) are
more "pretentious" than the earlier ones.
--
Nicole M Bourgoin
nbou...@iastate.edu
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~nbourgoi/homepage.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/8472/index.html
Cosmin Corbea
Majikthise wrote:
[...]
>
> I *really* don't like the Discworld (almost wrote Discoworld) books.
> I tried 3 of them, and not only did they bore me to tears, I found the
> writing rather...hmmm...pretentious. Pretentious in the Harold
> Robbins style - the 'author winking at reader' type thing. Bugs the
> hell out of me.
I noticed an interesting phenomenon re Terry Pratchett's books. Some
of his books did not "click" for me when reading them the first time.
That happened with "Small Gods", "Maskerade", "Witches Abroad", "Lord
and Ladies", "Interesting Times" and a couple of others [1]. However,
re-reading them was a delight.
>
> So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
> Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
> wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
> Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
> it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
You may have a point there. I'm a *big* fan of British humor[3]
>
> Dryad
[1] Yes, I read most of Pterry's[2] books, except for "The Hogfather"
and "Equal Rites" which I can't for the life of me find in Vancouver...
[2] That's the affectionate nickname people use for TP in
alt.fan.pratchett
[3] Should it be "humour" in that case?
--
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
*** To e-mail, please remove nspam from my address ***
Allyn J. Carter
In article <333790...@nspam.kalman.com>, Cosmin Corbea
<cos...@nspam.kalman.com> writes
>[3] Should it be "humour" in that case?
It should always be humour, as it should be colour, armour, etc. Your
gradual destruction of the language is very distressing.
To get back on topic, I don't think the link between British humour and
liking Terry Pratchett can be very well established. I enjoy many forms
of our humour from The Goons to Carry On, but I find Pratchet a serious
bore. I tried 3 of his books before giving up. The hype was such that I
though it must be my fault that I didn't enjoy them, but after 3
attempts, I feel that I have dipatched my duties.
Now, Douglas Adams - he used to be funny.
--
Allyn J. Carter, | I'm Brian and so is my wife.
Birmingham, UK | You can't read my writing. It says "Elephant".
_____________________________________________________________________________
Nancy Lebovitz
>Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
>wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
>Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
>it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
>
the Discworld books once--there's always at least something funny
in them, though I like some of them better than others. (I thought
_Soul Music_ was mostly dull with the only good bits being the
descriptions of rock music, but I was pleased with _Lords and
Ladies_.)
I get the impression that there are plenty of Americans who like
his books a lot, though.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <E7Ko1...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>On the other hand, I do highly recommend the Nome Trilogy (aka the
>Bromeliad); these are _Truckers_, _Diggers_, and _Wings_. They're also
>suitable for young children.
>
*really* tired of the Nome dialogue, and had a feeling that Pratchett
was patronizing them.
aznin
A lot of people (including Majikthise here) complain that Pratchett seems
to make a lot of oblique references, winking to the readers behind the
characters' backs, etc. Certainly his books are filled with literary and
other references.
My point is that you can perfectly enjoy the books without understanding
every reference. I read the witches-books before reading any Shakespeare
and laughed my head off. After I started digging into Shakespeare I
understood a few more subleties of the stories (especially Wyrd Sisters),
but again, it's not a prerequisite.
It's similar to the whole James Joyce discussion. Some people read the
books and enjoy them as a literary text. Some people turn back to the
notes in the back at every word they don't get. I think that both ways
have their bad sides.
Oops, went off on a tangent there. Back to Pratchett: it's not necessary
at all to catch all the references he makes. (but if you want them, the
Annotated Pratchett Files may come in handy)
--
Aznin
********************************************
westering widdershins whistling ----
********************************************
az...@hotmail.com
Majikthise <la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<3337096a...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> So I've been hearing all the hooha about Terry Pratchett, and, finally
> lknowing someone who has many of his books, I decided to give him the
> old college try.
>
> I *really* don't like the Discworld (almost wrote Discoworld) books.
> I tried 3 of them, and not only did they bore me to tears, I found the
> writing rather...hmmm...pretentious. Pretentious in the Harold
> Robbins style - the 'author winking at reader' type thing. Bugs the
> hell out of me.
>
> So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
> Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
> wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
> Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
> it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
>
> Dryad
>
Leo Breebaart
[ Added the Pratchett newsgroups to the Newsgroups: header ]
s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
> That is what I did not like about _Soul Music_ -- because I didn't *get*
> the jokes.
Within the Discworld series, Terry Pratchett has written several types of
novels. Some, such as _Soul Music_ or _Moving Pictures_ are gag-driven,
short-on-plot, non-stop parodies of real life concepts ('rock music' for
SM, 'Hollywood movies' for MP). If you're not familiar with what he is
parodying, chances are you won't enjoy these books very much.
Other novels, such as _Small Gods_, _Reaper Man_, or _Feet of Clay_, have
the jokes layered on top of a far more complex structure, that includes
decent plots, surprisingly serious themes, and even some actual character
development. If you don't like 'pretensions', chances are you won't enjoy
these books very much.
So getting hooked on the Discworld may be a matter of simply finding the
right place to start. alt.fan.pratchett is full of tales of people who
disliked the first two or three Pratchett novels they tried, only to find
that the next one was to be the one that became their Favourite Book Of All
Time.
On the other hand if, like the original poster who started this thread, you
just don't care much for the 'wink at the reader' style of humour, I'd say
there's a very real chance you won't like *any* Pratchett, period. This can
be a good thing financially, because you will then not feel the need to buy
the almost thirty books the man has written so far (with no signs of
decreased output *or* decreased quality -- a rare thing indeed).
> I knew they were there, because the rest of the prose surrounding them
> *demanded* that it be a joke... but I don't know enough to know what they
> actually were, or what they meant.
It won't suddenly turn Terry Pratchett's novels into fountains of delight,
but a document that might be of some help with the "I know this is supposed
to be a joke, but I don't get it" problem is the Annotated Pratchett File
or APF, which lists and explains more than 1300 references and obscure
jokes in Terry's books.
The APF can be found on-line at <http://www.lspace.org/books/>. ASCII,
PostScript and various hypertext formats are available from
<ftp://ftp.lspace.org/pub/pratchett/words/apf/>
> If you didn't like _Good Omens_, you probably won't enjoy *any* of his
> books. (This is not to say its his best work, but it's lacking as much of
> the "hey look I've just made a subtle reference to such-and-such" humour
> that many of the other books have.)
I beg to differ. With 89 entries in the APF, _Good Omens_ is one of the
most heavily annotated books of them all.
--
Leo Breebaart (l...@lspace.org)
yon lew
nep...@worldaccessnet.com (Jacob Proffitt) writes:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:14:47 GMT, la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise)
>wrote:
>> So I figured I would try Good Omens, which Pratchett wrote with
>>Gaiman. Didn't care for that either, I have to admit, so I'm
>>wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
>>Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
>>it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
>Could be. I'm personally a huge fan of Terry Pratchett (and Neil Gaiman, BTW)
>and find his books enormously funny. I am also a big fan of British humor,
>though (Red Dwarf, Waiting for God, Faulty Towers, some Python), so I'm not a
>really good representative of any kind of contrast you may be looking for.
From another perspective, I'm a huge fan of Python and Red Dwarf,
slightly cooler on Faulty Towers (sp?), but I think Pratchett is just a
second rate Douglas Adams.
Although I haven't read any Adams since 1988.
Cosmin Corbea
Allyn J. Carter wrote:
>
> In article <333790...@nspam.kalman.com>, Cosmin Corbea
> <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> writes
> >[3] Should it be "humour" in that case?
>
> It should always be humour, as it should be colour, armour, etc. Your
> gradual destruction of the language is very distressing.
Hey, English is not my first language, so I deny any implication
in its destruction, gradual or otherwise; I'd say it was already
broken by the time I started looking at it! Still, having watched
countless spelling-related flame wars between the British and the
Americans, I think the best solution is to go phonetic...
[...]
>
> Now, Douglas Adams - he used to be funny.
>
In my case "used" is the operative word...
Charles Frederick Goodin
In article <333790...@nspam.kalman.com>,
Cosmin Corbea <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> wrote:
>
>[1] Yes, I read most of Pterry's[2] books, except for "The Hogfather"
>and "Equal Rites" which I can't for the life of me find in Vancouver...
If you're talking about Vancouver, BC, you could try the Burnaby Public
Libraries. They have a huge collection of Pratchett stuff, and they
usually get it before the local bookstores, sometimes _months_ before.
Haven't seen _The_Hogfather_ yet, but I read _Equal_Rites_ from them
probably at least a year ago.
chuk
Robert J. Sawyer
Allyn J. Carter, himself a Brit, writes:
To get back on topic, I don't think the link between British humour and
liking Terry Pratchett can be very well established.
<<
Well, Terry Pratchett is a HUGE seller in the UK, and he simply isn't
in the US. I think that's pretty good statistical evidence that his
appeal is at least somewhat culturally specific.
(Note that one's appeal isn't necessarily specific to one's OWN
culture: Michael Coney, who lives in Canada but was raised in the UK,
has his biggest audience in France; Barrington J. Bayley, who is hardly
well known in the US is huge in Japan.)
----------------------------------------
R O B E R T J . S A W Y E R
Author of STARPLEX (Ace 1996)
Current Best Novel Nebula Award Finalist
----------------------------------------
Majikthise
nbou...@iastate.edu (Nicole M Bourgoin) wrote:
>Hey which 3 did you read?
Well....I started the first one, skipped to a later one fairly quickly
(don't recall which one), then tried Small Gods before moving on to
Good Omens.
>It's ok not to like Pratchett; humor varies among individuals.
I know, but darnit, I hate being out of the loop! ;-)
Dryad
Majikthise
"aznin" <az...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A lot of people (including Majikthise here) complain that Pratchett seems
>to make a lot of oblique references, winking to the readers behind the
>characters' backs, etc.
Er, no....I enjoy Gaiman's Sandman partly because I like to figure out
the references - what I don't enjoy about Pratchett is the 'in your
face' references, kinda reminds me of little kids who tell a joke and
then constantly ask 'didja get it, didja get it?'.
Dryad
Majikthise
nep...@worldaccessnet.com (Jacob Proffitt) wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:14:47 GMT, la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise)
I am also a big fan of British humor,
>though (Red Dwarf, Waiting for God, Faulty Towers, some Python), so I'm not a
>really good representative of any kind of contrast you may be looking for.
Oo, oo, I *love* British humour...I even spell it the British way ;-)
So that's why I'm so....disappointed? disillusioned?...don't quite
know the right word with Pratchett - I can see the humour, I just
don't find it all funny. :-/
Dryad
Cosmin Corbea
Charles Frederick Goodin wrote:
[..]
> If you're talking about Vancouver, BC,
Isn't that *the* Vancouver, the only city by this name that
does not need to add the state?
> you could try the Burnaby Public
> Libraries.
Thanks for the tip! I'm on my way!
The Low Golden Willow
"Allyn J. Carter" <newsp...@carterhq.demon.co.uk> wrote:
/Now, Douglas Adams - he used to be funny.
Have you read _Last Chance to See_? Not science fiction, or fiction; he
and some guy go around looking at endangered species. But very funny.
And I am someone who thinks the Hitchhiker trilogy consisted of three
books too many...
Merry part,
-xx- Damien R. Sullivan X-) <*> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix
"In my view, meaning-carrying objects won't submit to being shunted
about (it's demeaning.)" -- Douglas Hofstadter
dawic...@aol.com
In article <FS+OICAl...@carterhq.demon.co.uk>, "Allyn J. Carter" <postm...@carterhq.demon.co.uk> writes:
>It should always be humour, as it should be colour, armour, etc. Your
>gradual destruction of the language is very distressing.
>
>
You know, it is really tyring having to deal with all of these extraneous vowels. It's getting to the point where I feel flattened by my apartment, after a hard day ofswitching points for goods wagons and dodging lorrys in roundabouts whose hostlers persist in testing my reflexes by coming at me the wrong way. I go to work and the mainframe signifies its boot status by shouting BOADICEA at the world. Then it initialises. The whole thing is enough to make me want to write my own dictionary.
---Noah Webster
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place. And so are these constant threads about "Why I Don't Like (Insert Author's Name Here)."
De gustibus non disputandem.
Douglas A. Wickstrom OS/32 Spoken Here
The above address refuses all E-mail SE T: 00:00:00,MM/DD/YY
E-mail to nimshubur(at)aol(dot)com.us MA D0:,ON,,CD=1024
VSUP
Christian Claiborn
la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise) writes:
> Oo, oo, I *love* British humour...I even spell it the British way ;-)
>
> So that's why I'm so....disappointed? disillusioned?...don't quite
> know the right word with Pratchett - I can see the humour, I just
> don't find it all funny. :-/
My take on Pratchett is this:
Pratchett is a competent writer with an excellent sense of irony.
Irony will get you pretty far, but unless you've got another trick,
you end up writing the same novel over and over again. The best
satires have bite: _Animal Farm_ or Connie Willis' "Ado." Terry is so
incredibly good-natured (as anybody who follows his correspondence
will attest) that he never works up the viciousness that you need to
write satire memorably.
To some degree, his points aren't fine enough. Every idea and every
character in a Pratchett novel is an object of fun, and they all get
equal treatment. He presents a protagonist, a silly person,
attempting to do something silly while overcoming silly adversaries.
This is fine if what you're writing is a sitcom, but it's hardly an
effective way to propel the reader through a story. If nothing is
sacred, there's nothing to care about. The novel becomes a forum for
demonstrating the author's cleverness in a rather undirected manner.
That said, I'm American and perhaps I'm missing some cultural context
that's required for a true appreciation of Pratchett. Of course, I
also find Iain Banks screamingly funny (_The Wasp Factory_ and _The
Crow Road_ mostly.) And Ballard.
christian
--
Christian Longshore Claiborn - 508-684-3612 - c...@adsmart.net
"There is not any memory with less satisfaction than the memory of
some temptation resisted." -- James Branch Cabell
Cosmin Corbea
The Low Golden Willow wrote:
>
> Cosmin Corbea <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> wrote:
>
[...]
> /having watched
> /countless spelling-related flame wars between the British and the
> /Americans, I think the best solution is to go phonetic...
>
> Whose pronunciation?
Since neither British of Americans would ever accept
the other side's, why not Australian?
The Low Golden Willow
Cosmin Corbea <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> wrote:
/Hey, English is not my first language, so I deny any implication
/in its destruction, gradual or otherwise; I'd say it was already
/broken by the time I started looking at it! Still, having watched
/countless spelling-related flame wars between the British and the
/Americans, I think the best solution is to go phonetic...
Whose pronunciation?
Merry part,
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <3338406...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Majikthise <la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>nep...@worldaccessnet.com (Jacob Proffitt) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 23:14:47 GMT, la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise)
> I am also a big fan of British humor,
>>though (Red Dwarf, Waiting for God, Faulty Towers, some Python), so I'm not a
>>really good representative of any kind of contrast you may be looking for.
>
>
>
>So that's why I'm so....disappointed? disillusioned?...don't quite
>know the right word with Pratchett - I can see the humour, I just
>don't find it all funny. :-/
>
ideology. I rather sympathize with his point that the undignified
real world is worth some loyalty even if elves, angels, and devils
think it could be replaced with something better, but I get tired
of being nagged about it.
Charles Frederick Goodin
In article <33383A...@nspam.kalman.com>,
Cosmin Corbea <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> wrote:
>Charles Frederick Goodin wrote:
>
>[..]
>
>> If you're talking about Vancouver, BC,
>
>Isn't that *the* Vancouver, the only city by this name that
>does not need to add the state?
I've had Americans assume I was talking about Vancouver in Washington
state. Not many, but it's happened.
>
>> you could try the Burnaby Public
>> Libraries.
>
>Thanks for the tip! I'm on my way!
The tip I should have made in case you wanted to buy these books instead
of merely reading them is to suggest that you try White Dwarf, if you
haven't already. They're on west 10th in Vancouver, and they carry all
books SF and Fantasy (note: I'm not an employee, or even a very frequent
customer, but that's just because I have no money. :-))
chuk
Jo Walton
> In article <333926b7...@nntp.netcom.net.uk>, jo...@netcomuk.co.uk (Joel
> Benford) writes:
>
> >Does he ever write shorts? I think he could turn out a sensational
> >funny short.
>
> He's done a few. One's available on the 'net - check the Pratchett Archives for > it (Can't remember the name.) The other's in _After The King_, among other
> places, and is called "Troll Bridge."
There was also one in the British RPG magazine GM, and it was a wonderful one.
It was about a writer of Conanesque fantasies who killed off his hero,
who then went to feast in the halls of his maker. There was a sound of
the hatstand being knocked over. This story _really_ works. I have been
looking for my copy of it for the last eighteen months or so.
I really like the Troll Bridge one too, though the one on the net is
fairly lame, I thought. I seem to remember him saying that he'd written
another couple as well, and that he had nearly enough for a collection,
he said this a while ago.
I _like_ Pratchett's shorts a lot - and I don't like the Discworld novels,
I clearly don't get British humour either (On "101 _really good_ reasons to
emigrate" that can go right after the price of books) I find them annoying
rather than amusing. But I really like the juveniles.
> The thing is, the two aren't terribly funny. Oh, both are *okay*, but
> Pratchett's sense of humor *doesn't* seem to function quite as well in the
> shorter works. Dunno why. Perhaps it's the fact that he tends to build a gag up > over time ... it's not *just* that Carrot was a human adopted by dwarves, it
> was that he was a human adopted by dwarves who grew up to be 6'6", and it
> wasn't *just* that the was a human adopted by dwarves who grew up to be 6'6",
> it was that he was going out with ... and so on and so forth. One small
> fragment of the gag is laid down, then he drifts away for a moment, and then it > comes back into play. And the jokes where he *doesn't* do this aren't
> particularly hilarious...
>
> I dunno. If you don't think much of the extended works, you probably won't
> think much of the shorter ones.
I think you might. The trouble with the Discworld novels is that they
seem to go on "The only good subtle is a dead subtle" principle. The
short stories strike me as working better. But maybe it's only that they
don't have long enough to annoy me.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.kenjo.demon.co.uk/ contains Blood of Kings Poems:
14 of mine, 6 of Graydon's, 1 of Browning's
...and a cheerful song about the end of the world
Martin Soederstroem
Majikthise wrote:
> so I'm
> wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
> Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
> it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
explain. Normally British humour-books start out funny and with a clear
sense of purpouse, but end up being depressing, not funny and lacking
plot. A couple of examples of this are RED DWARF and Robert Rankin. Tom
Holt is funny to the end but one is still left not quite knowing what
happened in the end.
Yes, I actually thought Harrisburgh is in USA.
--
Martin
Muse
In article <5h8b0v$pdd$1...@rama.twi.tudelft.nl>,I just shook my head and
said "Deary deary me when l...@lspace.org said ...
>
>[ Added the Pratchett newsgroups to the Newsgroups: header ]
>
>s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>
>> That is what I did not like about _Soul Music_ -- because I didn't
*get*
>> the jokes.
>
>Within the Discworld series, Terry Pratchett has written several types
of
>novels. Some, such as _Soul Music_ or _Moving Pictures_ are gag-driven,
>short-on-plot, non-stop parodies of real life concepts ('rock music'
for
>SM, 'Hollywood movies' for MP). If you're not familiar with what he is
>parodying, chances are you won't enjoy these books very much.
Gosh, I thought he was parodying life in general....But I guess if
you're not familiar with having one.....they could be a bit of the
least of your problems :).
Muse
--
Live long and be preposterous.
Hoosier Red
In article <333941a...@news.demon.co.uk>,
la...@majikthise.demon.co.uk (Majikthise) wrote:
Hmm. One book that seems to be recommended very often as an intro to
Pterry's Discworld series is Mort.
By the way, don't feel bad about feeling out of the loop. The first two
books in the series were really so-so, Small Gods is good but is kind of a
stand-alone piece that doesn't involve the regular cast o' characters that
run throughout the series (which is half the fun of the Discworld, IMHO),
and Good Omens , while very cool, was co-written with Neil Gaiman and
doesn't really have anything to do with the Discworld. If you'd like to
try one last time with Pterry's stuff, try Mort or maybe Wyrd Sisters.
I've found that books starring Death or the Three Witches are among the
best in the series.
MMF
Melanie Miller Fletcher xan...@ibm.net http://www.io.com/~hoosier
Expatriate Chicagoan * Babe Feminist * Will Write For Food
Member, Starfleet Ladies' Auxiliary and Embroidery/Baking Society
EARTH FIRST! We'll stripmine the other planets later.
Colin Rosenthal
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:55:30 -0800, Martin Soederstroem <Martin.S...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>Majikthise wrote:
>> so I'm
>> wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
>> Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
>> it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
>Being a Swede I actually thought that Pratchett was an American. Let me
>explain. Normally British humour-books start out funny and with a clear
>sense of purpouse, but end up being depressing, not funny and lacking
>plot. A couple of examples of this are RED DWARF and Robert Rankin.
I'm puzzled about your Robert Rankin remark. In what way is he
depressing?? Which book did you read?
Douglas Adams and Red Dwarf I agree about, deeply depressing by the end.
(I just finished rereading Evelyn Waugh's "Scoop" last night and got much
the same feeling.)
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
rdk...@facstaff.wisc.edu
In article <5h9dpm$9gt$2...@mhade.production.compuserve.com>, Robert J.
Sawyer <7670...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Well, Terry Pratchett is a HUGE seller in the UK, and he simply isn't
>in the US. I think that's pretty good statistical evidence that his
>appeal is at least somewhat culturally specific.
This doesn't inherently follow. Book sales are based on factors
other than the written words they contain. Those of us who know of
and look for Pratchett's know that until recently they've been
hard to get hold of (and are still way behind the UK releases).
Now, if he teamed up with Tom Clancy, the publishers would put
a little effort into getting his name known. But when he came
thru Madison this year on a book-signing tour, the advertising
effort seemed to consist of a single sign in the UW Bookstore's
window, and if I hadn't been down to the bookstore that day
I'd never have known he was coming. (Heck, a friend and SF fan
who works for this bookstore, but at a different site, didn't know
he was coming!)
The UK is a very different market from the US. Find a British
magazine at an import shop sometime and look at the ads. Over
here, you get adds for "MegaBig CD Players, available at
Appliance Stores Everywhere". Over there, you get "Fred's
Blackpool Appliance Shop", complete with a map showing you
what street corner to turn on to find Fred, and a picture
of what Fred looks like so you'll know when you've got to the
right shop. Atlases make us think that the UK and the US are
both 8 1/2" by 11" sized countries, but it's not true.
John Scott
In article <5h9dpm$9gt$2...@mhade.production.compuserve.com>, Robert J.
Sawyer <7670...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>
> Well, Terry Pratchett is a HUGE seller in the UK, and he simply isn't
> in the US. I think that's pretty good statistical evidence that his
> appeal is at least somewhat culturally specific.
>
It's also the case that Terry Pratchetts books have, until recently,
recieved poor distribution and promotion in the States. Even now, I
believe the US is 2 or 3 books behind the UK. So your 'pretty good
statistical evidence' isn't necesarily causal. In fact, you might have the
causality completely wrong.
John
The University and I agree on a lot, but not necessarily this ...
Martin Soederstroem
John Scott wrote:
>
> In article <5h9dpm$9gt$2...@mhade.production.compuserve.com>, Robert J.
> Sawyer <7670...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Well, Terry Pratchett is a HUGE seller in the UK, and he simply isn't
> > in the US. I think that's pretty good statistical evidence that his
> > appeal is at least somewhat culturally specific.
> >
>
> It's also the case that Terry Pratchetts books have, until recently,
> recieved poor distribution and promotion in the States. Even now, I
> believe the US is 2 or 3 books behind the UK. So your 'pretty good
> statistical evidence' isn't necesarily causal. In fact, you might have the
> causality completely wrong.
--
Martin
The Low Golden Willow
j.f....@bton.ac.uk (John Scott) wrote:
/It's also the case that Terry Pratchetts books have, until recently,
/recieved poor distribution and promotion in the States. Even now, I
/believe the US is 2 or 3 books behind the UK. So your 'pretty good
/statistical evidence' isn't necesarily causal. In fact, you might have the
/causality completely wrong.
Yeah. Small Gods, Lords and Ladies, and Soul Music seemed to come out
close to each other, especially the latter two. But Men at Arms comes
between those two -- it came out a good deal later, and I still haven't
seen it in paperback. Then we got Feet of Clay, which was 2 Guards
books in a row, which felt far weirder than I would have imagined.
We're out Maskerade, Interesting Times (damnit!), and Hogfather.
Hogfather only came out for Christmas in the UK, but the other two
preceded Feet of Clay.
I like Pratchett a lot, and I'm American. I'm not sure what American
humor is to distinguish if I like British humor more. I'm not a big fan
of Letterman, but Calvin Trillin is neat.
Are Iain Banks' Culture book out of print in the UK, or just here?
Actually Player of Games and Excession are on the shelves, but the
others aren't. I need a mail order bookstore in Britain.
Merry part,
-xx- Damien R. Sullivan X-) <*> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix
"Send a policeman and have it arrested."
-- Bismarck, when asked what he would do if the British Army landed.
Martin Soederstroem
Colin Rosenthal wrote:
> I'm puzzled about your Robert Rankin remark. In what way is he
> depressing?? Which book did you read?
ARMAGEDDON THE MUSICAL and THEY CAME AND ATE US. A quick check of their
endings seem to indicate that they are not depressing. My memory appears
to have had a bit of fun at my expense.
You do however agree that they get more and more confusing the farther
one reads, yes? (Hope my memory is correct here at least.) I suppose
some people might like that but I don't. I like it when what has
happened gets explained.
--
Martin
Norman L. DeForest
Leo Breebaart (l...@lspace.org) wrote:
: [ Added the Pratchett newsgroups to the Newsgroups: header ]
: s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
: > That is what I did not like about _Soul Music_ -- because I didn't *get*
: > the jokes.
: Within the Discworld series, Terry Pratchett has written several types of
: novels. Some, such as _Soul Music_ or _Moving Pictures_ are gag-driven,
=================
: short-on-plot, non-stop parodies of real life concepts ('rock music' for
: SM, 'Hollywood movies' for MP). If you're not familiar with what he is
=========================
: parodying, chances are you won't enjoy these books very much.
Watch for falling spoilers ...
.
.
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.
.
.
.
.
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.
.
I warned you -- spoiler ahead...
.
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.
The image of a giant woman holding a terrified monk^H^H^H^H^H ape in her
hand while she climbs up a tower just about made me wet my pants, I was
laughing so hard.
I don't think I'll ever be able to see King Kong again without chuckling.
Norman De Forest
af...@chebucto.ns.ca
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/Profile.html
(A Speech Friendly Site)
.........................................................................
Q. Which is the greater problem in the world today, ignorance or apathy?
A. I don't know and I couldn't care less.
.........................................................................
Graydon
Jo Walton (J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: I think you might. The trouble with the Discworld novels is that they
: short stories strike me as working better. But maybe it's only that they
: don't have long enough to annoy me.
I dunno; :The Light Fantastic: didn't do a thing for me, the sooner
Rincewind has a thorough encounter with a giant silver cheese grater the
happier I shall be, but the later books were so obviosly not humour -
anything with a cover for which lead figures where used as the figure
models is by definition NOT FUNNY, no matter what the publisher is trying
to get you to think - that I found I rather liked them. It might help to
have no sense of humour, I don't know, but things like the assassin's
guild 'also believing in competitive examinantion' I find highly amusing.
--
Uton we hycgan hwaer we ham agen, | saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
ond thonne gethencan hu we thider cumen.
athol-brose
In article <5hc5e1$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
The Low Golden Willow <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>Yeah. Small Gods, Lords and Ladies, and Soul Music seemed to come out
>close to each other, especially the latter two. But Men at Arms comes
>between those two -- it came out a good deal later, and I still haven't
>seen it in paperback. Then we got Feet of Clay, which was 2 Guards
>books in a row, which felt far weirder than I would have imagined.
>We're out Maskerade, Interesting Times (damnit!), and Hogfather.
>Hogfather only came out for Christmas in the UK, but the other two
>preceded Feet of Clay.
I just picked up "Interesting Times" in hardcover (first hardcover
Pratchett I've bought, but I couldn't resist.) Devoured it while sick.
About to read it out loud -- a friend and I have a tradition of this (so
far: the Witches books, "Eric" and "Soul Music"; Pratchett reads aloud
surprisingly well, for the most part).
>Are Iain Banks' Culture book out of print in the UK, or just here?
>Actually Player of Games and Excession are on the shelves, but the
>others aren't. I need a mail order bookstore in Britain.
The only Banks I could find other than "Feersum Endjinn" (which I loved)
was "Against a Dark Background" (of which the less said, the better). I
have to find the others...
--
athol-brose // cinn...@one.net // http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon
still, it's just noise
Colin Rosenthal
Ok. The Armageddon books are my personal least-favourites of Rankin's
output. Try one of his Brentford books, or "The Book of Ultimate Truths".
If you like things weird, give "The Garden of Earthly Delights" a try.
Incidentally, there's a Rankin web page at
http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d94-pek/rankin/rankin.html
so evidently _some_ Swedes find him appealing :-)
Matthew Malthouse
In article <5hc5e1$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu (The
Low Golden Willow) wrote:
} j.f....@bton.ac.uk (John Scott) wrote:
} Are Iain Banks' Culture book out of print in the UK, or just here?
} Actually Player of Games and Excession are on the shelves, but the
} others aren't. I need a mail order bookstore in Britain.
AFAIK All Banks are in print. But you shouldn't need the expense
of mail order, a good bookstore should be able to order the UK
editions for you if the US ones are really unavailable.
Questions like this pop up regular and I'm curious: are US
bookstores reluctant to research suppliers and take orders?
Matthew
--
mailto:matthew....@guardian.co.uk [work]
mailto:dha...@geocities.com [home]
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/6630/
The opinions expressed are not those of the Guardian Media Group
John Moreno
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
-snip-
] them. It might help to have no sense of humour, I don't know, but
] things like the assassin's guild 'also believing in competitive
] examinantion' I find highly amusing.
Doesn't everybody?
--
John Moreno
Graham Head
In article <sysp1j7...@adsmart.net>, Christian Claiborn
<c...@adsmart.net> writes
>My take on Pratchett is this:
>
>Pratchett is a competent writer with an excellent sense of irony.
>Irony will get you pretty far, but unless you've got another trick,
>you end up writing the same novel over and over again. The best
>satires have bite: _Animal Farm_ or Connie Willis' "Ado." Terry is so
>incredibly good-natured (as anybody who follows his correspondence
>will attest) that he never works up the viciousness that you need to
>write satire memorably.
>
death Wodehouse comparison is aposite here, of course.
If you are looking for a slightly 'tougher' stance from him, have a look
at the first and third of the 'Johnny' juveniles, _Only You Can Save
Mankind_ and _Johnny and the Bomb_ - particularly the former which is
written (in many respects) against the background of Desert Storm.
>To some degree, his points aren't fine enough. Every idea and every
>character in a Pratchett novel is an object of fun, and they all get
>equal treatment. He presents a protagonist, a silly person,
>attempting to do something silly while overcoming silly adversaries.
Actually, that seems a very decidedly odd view to me. Rather than
'silly', Rincewind, the chief angel and devil characters in _Good
Omens_, Carrot and Vimes, and to a certain extent Ridcully all feel like
unsilly, somewhat normal (begging questions ;->) Twentieth-century-like
figures. A common bathetic approach.
>This is fine if what you're writing is a sitcom, but it's hardly an
>effective way to propel the reader through a story. If nothing is
>sacred, there's nothing to care about. The novel becomes a forum for
>demonstrating the author's cleverness in a rather undirected manner.
But in (particularly) Small Gods, Men at Arms, the Johnny juveniles,
Good Omens, Equal Rites, Lords and Ladies (sort of), and others there
does seem to me to be a clearer moral sense, and a focussing on issues
of right and wrong, than you seem to credit.
--
Graham
Norman L. DeForest
John Moreno (phe...@interpath.com) wrote:
: Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
: -snip-
: Doesn't everybody?
: --
: John Moreno
Those who flunked the exams probably don't ^H^H^H^H^H^H didn't.
The Low Golden Willow
matthew....@guardian.co.uk (Matthew Malthouse) wrote:
/Low Golden Willow) wrote:
/} Are Iain Banks' Culture book out of print in the UK, or just here?
/} Actually Player of Games and Excession are on the shelves, but the
/} others aren't. I need a mail order bookstore in Britain.
/
/AFAIK All Banks are in print. But you shouldn't need the expense
/of mail order, a good bookstore should be able to order the UK
/editions for you if the US ones are really unavailable.
/
/Questions like this pop up regular and I'm curious: are US
/bookstores reluctant to research suppliers and take orders?
I found two British Web-bookstores, and yeah, everything's there. The
covers are cooler, too. US bookstores will take orders and get books,
yes, and a nearby independent (Vromans') claims it will do used book
searches. I never thought of asking if they'd order something from
Britain for me. Might still be expensive -- shipping at one Web store
was 24 pounds.
Also, my experience is that book orders take a few weeks to fill; if one
is impatient getting mail delivery in a few days may be happier,
particularly if one is looking for 2-3 Banks books and 3 Pratchett
books.
But I'm told Interesting Times is around, and I may be able to borrow
Culture books from someone.
Merry part,
-xx- Damien R. Sullivan X-) <*> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix
Piety, n: Reverence for the Supreme Being, based on His supposed
resemblance to man.
-- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
Majikthise
matthew....@guardian.co.uk (Matthew Malthouse) wrote:
>Questions like this pop up regular and I'm curious: are US
>bookstores reluctant to research suppliers and take orders?
Aha, a question I can answer! Having worked in a small independent
bookstore, I can tell you that special ordering books from
non-mainstream pbulishers can be quite expensive. I don't know about
the chain bookstores - I avoid them at all possible costs, but most
small bookstores are more than willing to order for a customer.
Dryad
Majikthise
Martin Soederstroem <Martin.S...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>Yes, I actually thought Harrisburgh is in USA.
>--
>Martin
Hey, there's a Harrisburg in Pennsylvania, USA... :-)
Dryad
Simon Slavin
In article <AF5F462A9...@slip139-92-44-171.zo.nl.ibm.net>,
xan...@ibm.net (Hoosier Red) wrote:
> Good Omens , while very cool, was co-written with Neil Gaiman and
> doesn't really have anything to do with the Discworld.
It's strange, but while I like Pratchett (especially the kids'
books) and I like Gaiman's Sandman books, I didn't really enjoy
_Good Omens_ as much as I thought I would. The two authors
didn't seem to work together in an ideal manner ... there were
a lot of great ideas in there which weren't portrayed with the
wit I've come to expect from either author.
Simon.
--
Simon Slavin -- Computer Contractor. | A cute girl asked me yesterday,
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | so now I care.
Check email address for spam-guard. | -- tan...@math.wisc.edu
Junk email not welcome at this site. | (Stephen Will Tanner)
Lawrence Person
In article <5hi233$a...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu (The
Low Golden Willow) wrote:
>
> I found two British Web-bookstores, and yeah, everything's there. The
> covers are cooler, too. US bookstores will take orders and get books,
> yes, and a nearby independent (Vromans') claims it will do used book
> searches. I never thought of asking if they'd order something from
> Britain for me. Might still be expensive -- shipping at one Web store
> was 24 pounds.
>
> Also, my experience is that book orders take a few weeks to fill; if one
> is impatient getting mail delivery in a few days may be happier,
> particularly if one is looking for 2-3 Banks books and 3 Pratchett
> books.
One U.S. store that has a number of Banks books (and Prachett's, for that
matter) is Adventures in Crime & Space, which can be reached at
a...@eden.com. And they also have lots of other neat stuff for sale as
well, including back issues of a Certain Fanzine . . .
--
- Lawrence Person
lawr...@bga.com
New Book Catalog: SF/F/H/SS Firsts: Lansdale, Shirley, Bishop, etc.
Join the Conspiracy! Vote NOVA EXPRESS for Best Fanzine Hugo in 1997!
Jennifer Barber
In article <5hc5e1$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu (The
Low Golden Willow) wrote:
> We're out Maskerade, Interesting Times (damnit!), and Hogfather.
Just recently I've seen Interesting Times over here--hardcover,
unfortunately, and with a *really* hideous cover. Luckily I've already
read it. :) And I've got not one but *two* hardcover copies of the UK
edition of Maskerade (gifts), which I found a lot of fun--because, like
Wyrd Sisters and Lords & Ladies, I actually understood most of the
references for a change, since a large percentage of them were
theatrical. I doubt I'll reread it as much as the other two (or Small
Gods), but I did enjoy it a great deal.
Wish it *would* come out over here, though, so I could recommend it to people!
jennifer
Kai Henningsen
rose...@asp.hao.ucar.edu (Colin Rosenthal) wrote on 26.03.97 in <5hc9i1$rsu$1...@ncar.ucar.edu>:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:55:30 -0800, Martin Soederstroem
> ><Martin.S...@swipnet.se> wrote: Majikthise wrote:
> >> so I'm
> >> wondering if the Pratchett phenomena is a British thing, something
> >> Americans just don't get (I doubt this theory even though I'm saying
> >> it)?? Anyone have any ideas?
> >Being a Swede I actually thought that Pratchett was an American. Let me
> >explain. Normally British humour-books start out funny and with a clear
> >sense of purpouse, but end up being depressing, not funny and lacking
> >plot. A couple of examples of this are RED DWARF and Robert Rankin.
>
> I'm puzzled about your Robert Rankin remark. In what way is he
> depressing?? Which book did you read?
How about the <whatever> triangle trilogy? Definitely start out funny,
definitely end depressing.
Kai
--
Internet: k...@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
M. Gallo
In article <lawrence-290...@apm1-86.realtime.net>,
Lawrence Person <lawr...@bga.com> wrote:
>
>One U.S. store that has a number of Banks books (and Prachett's, for that
>matter) is Adventures in Crime & Space, which can be reached at
>a...@eden.com. And they also have lots of other neat stuff for sale as
>well, including back issues of a Certain Fanzine . . .
Don't for get to check their WWW page at http://www.eden.com/~acs/
--
mailto:mga...@slonet.org
Ubi dubium ibi libertas.
Bill MacArthur
I picked up one Pratchett recommendation from this group, _Strata_, and
while I enjoyed it, I didn't find it exceptional. Is this book one of
his weaker ones or am I just missing the boat?
Philip Chee
1. Strata is one of his earliest novels and first published before he
became famous.
2. It's also a parody of Niven's _Ringworld_ and it helps if you had read
that first.
Philip
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Cement Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60-5-545-1011 Fax:+60-5-547-3932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
---
ž 9856.32 ž I used to have a life, then I became a sysop.
Tom Grant
Bill MacArthur <billmac...@uwindsor.ca> wrote in article
<E7wv...@news.uwindsor.ca>...
> I picked up one Pratchett recommendation from this group, _Strata_, and
> while I enjoyed it, I didn't find it exceptional. Is this book one of
> his weaker ones or am I just missing the boat?
S'funny, but I, too, do not find Mr. Pratchett that humorous. I've read
three of his books, and they didn't tickle my funny bone. Maybe this is one
of those areas where Your Results May Vary--much like the broad appeal of
the TV show _Friends_, which I also don't get.
PZ Myers
In article <01bc3e0f$904984a0$75f5...@cthulhu.macromedia.com>, "Tom Grant"
<tgr...@macromedia.com> wrote:
Wha...? You mean _Friends_ is supposed to be funny?
Cosmin Corbea
Bill MacArthur wrote:
>
[...]
> His [Terry Pratchett's] later novels are better, then?
I'd say yes. The first ones in the Discworld series are
quite nice, but not outstanding. The ones I really liked
start with "Mort" (the fourth or is it fifth? (I can't
remember where "Eric" fits in)). IMHO, he reached a
maximum when he published a whole series of good books
("Small Gods", "Men At Arms", "Guards! Guards!",
"Wyrd Sisters", "Reaper Man"). His later ones don't seem
to reach the same level of spontaneity and freshness...
--
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
*** To e-mail, please remove nspam from my address ***
Bill MacArthur
phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) wrote:
>In article <E7wv...@news.uwindsor.ca> billmac...@uwindsor.ca writes:
>
>>while I enjoyed it, I didn't find it exceptional. Is this book one of
>>his weaker ones or am I just missing the boat?
>
>became famous.
>
>2. It's also a parody of Niven's _Ringworld_ and it helps if you had read
>that first.
I've read _Ringworld_ and _The Ringworld Engineers_ and I really didn't
see _Strata_ as a parody of either of them. As I stated earlier I didn't
find it bad, just forgettable.
Leila Fetter
Many moons ago, Leo Breebaart wrote:
>
> [ Added the Pratchett newsgroups to the Newsgroups: header ]
>
> s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>
> > That is what I did not like about _Soul Music_ -- because I didn't *get*
> > the jokes.
>
> Within the Discworld series, Terry Pratchett has written several types of
> novels. Some, such as _Soul Music_ or _Moving Pictures_ are gag-driven,
> SM, 'Hollywood movies' for MP). If you're not familiar with what he is
>
> the jokes layered on top of a far more complex structure, that includes
> decent plots, surprisingly serious themes, and even some actual character
> development. If you don't like 'pretensions', chances are you won't enjoy
> these books very much.
Leo, dearest, I hate to argue with you, but I think
that you're underestimating Pterry's degree of
perception on certain issues, particularly music. (I
would actually wonder if he'd been a musician for
some of his childhood.)[1] One part of SM which
absolutely riveted me to the seat was when he was
saying along the lines of:
'...to live forever in that second when the crowd
roared...'
and more in that vein. I recently (as in last
weekend) was in a national music competition, and
although competing in music suks, the atmosphere and
the emotion on stage made me feel like that. Whatever
happened next didn't matter - what mattered was that
we were there and in front of an audience who loved
us.
Of course, this wouldn't mean much to anyone who
hadn't experienced it.
On the other books, I think you're absolutely bang
on. The content is useful for philosophy and English
essays, but I can see how it could make one a bit
put-off.
Thanks for reading a rather protracted post. Must go
to a lecture.
-L.
To reply, remove the spam.
[1]There's a bass trombone player in Canberra (where
I live) who I swear is exactly like Pterry. Almost
identical.
Gid Holyoake
To which I would add (paraphrasing)
There ain't no such thing as bad Pratchett, just some Pratchett is
better than others!!
HaHa
Gid
--
Singing: Rat onna stick, Rat onna stick,
Makes your metabolism work too quick,
Eat more than seven and it makes you sick,
You'll never grow tall eating Rat onna stick!
(C) C.M.O.T.D. Advertising
Graham Head
In article <33431D...@bohm.anu.edu.au>, Leila Fetter
<f306...@bohm.anu.edu.au> writes
[Snip]
>Leo, dearest, I hate to argue with you, but I think
>that you're underestimating Pterry's degree of
>perception on certain issues, particularly music. (I
>would actually wonder if he'd been a musician for
>some of his childhood.)[1] One part of SM which
>absolutely riveted me to the seat was when he was
>saying along the lines of:
>
>'...to live forever in that second when the crowd
>roared...'
>
>and more in that vein.
Hmmm. When I read that phrase, it reminded me of other
works about performing rock music and what it feels like.
It could be that Pterry has read similar and was just
reworking such material. Didn't sound so much original
as referential, like so much of the story. (That isn't a
put-down; to pastiche, refer to other texts, use other
intertextual strategies has been used by writers good and bad).
The fact that it chimes with your own experience doesn't
_necessarily_ make it an original thought with TP.
>I recently (as in last
>weekend) was in a national music competition, and
>although competing in music suks, the atmosphere and
>the emotion on stage made me feel like that. Whatever
>happened next didn't matter - what mattered was that
>we were there and in front of an audience who loved
>us.
>
>Of course, this wouldn't mean much to anyone who
>hadn't experienced it.
>
>On the other books, I think you're absolutely bang
>on. The content is useful for philosophy and English
>essays, but I can see how it could make one a bit
>put-off.
>
Uh?
--
Graham
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <5ha294$m...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,>Cosmin Corbea <cos...@nspam.kalman.com> wrote:
>
>/Hey, English is not my first language, so I deny any implication
>/in its destruction, gradual or otherwise; I'd say it was already
>/broken by the time I started looking at it! Still, having watched
>/countless spelling-related flame wars between the British and the
>/Americans, I think the best solution is to go phonetic...
>
>Whose pronunciation?
>
Mine. Middle-class Delawarean is obviously the One True English--
all the rest are mere accents. And there is *so* a difference
between a pail and a bucket!
(I've been told that thinking of a pail as smaller and lighter
than a bucket is a marker for Delawarianness.)
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Scott Ellsworth
In article <E7zM6...@news.uwindsor.ca>, Bill MacArthur <billmac...@uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) wrote:
>>In article <E7wv...@news.uwindsor.ca> billmac...@uwindsor.ca writes:
>>
>>>I picked up one Pratchett recommendation from this group, _Strata_, and
>>>while I enjoyed it, I didn't find it exceptional. Is this book one of
>>>his weaker ones or am I just missing the boat?
>>1. Strata is one of his earliest novels and first published before he
>>became famous.
>His later novels are better, then?
In my opinion, yes.
Later Pratchett books do have a specific taste. I liked Reaper Man and Small
Gods a great deal. I found Strata fairly forgettable. I suspect that others
will have different answers.
Scott
Scott Ellsworth sc...@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
Ankh
> In article <E7zM6...@news.uwindsor.ca>, Bill MacArthur <billmac...@uwindsor.ca> wrote:
> >phi...@aleytys.pc.my (Philip Chee) wrote:
> >>In article <E7wv...@news.uwindsor.ca> billmac...@uwindsor.ca writes:
> >>
> >>>I picked up one Pratchett recommendation from this group, _Strata_, and
> >>>while I enjoyed it, I didn't find it exceptional. Is this book one of
> >>>his weaker ones or am I just missing the boat?
Yes, I'd say "Strata" is one of the weaker ones. Pratchett's main claim to
fame and his main strength is the Discworld novels. He really hits his
stride around "Mort" (but that might be just because I never really liked
Rincewind as a character). It is a complex and amusing world and I've
found his non-Discworld novels much less enjoyable.
A
Rebecca Stevenson
Ankh wrote:
>
> Yes, I'd say "Strata" is one of the weaker ones. Pratchett's main claim to
> fame and his main strength is the Discworld novels. He really hits his
> stride around "Mort" (but that might be just because I never really liked
> Rincewind as a character). It is a complex and amusing world and I've
> found his non-Discworld novels much less enjoyable.
>
> A
I heartily recommend Truckers, Diggers, and Wings--a trilogy which I
understand is rather difficult to find (I got a 3-in-1 titled as "The
Bromeliad" from a book club). It is occasionally classified as a book
for younger readers but I've never ceased to enjoy it, and it contains
many of the major themes which reoccur in his other work.
(I've always liked Rincewind, too. Has he reappeared from the Dungeon
Dimensions yet?)
Rebecca
Harvard Book Store
1256 Massachusetts Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02138
http://www.harvard.com
Will&Jane Duquette
Rebecca Stevenson <hbs-...@harvard.com> wrote:
>(I've always liked Rincewind, too. Has he reappeared from the Dungeon
>Dimensions yet?)
Indeed. Check out "Eric", which is out in paperback in the U.S.,
finally. Actually, I probably got it about a year ago, so I don't
know whether it's still in print or not. Also, _Interesting Times_
is just out in the U.S. in hardcover; it's evidently a Rincewind
novel, though I'm not sure whether it follows _Eric_ or precedes
_Sourcery_. (I just got it, and haven't read it yet.)
Will
--
Will Duquette, duqu...@cogent.net | It's amazing what you can
Visit Will & Jane's Book Page: | do with the right tools.
http://www.cogent.net/~duquette | -- Me
Roger Smith
In article <5iobjs$t...@cyclops.dsphere.net>, Will&Jane Duquette <remove-
this-prefi...@cogent.net> wrote
>Rebecca Stevenson <hbs-...@harvard.com> wrote:
>
>>(I've always liked Rincewind, too. Has he reappeared from the Dungeon
>>Dimensions yet?)
>
>Indeed. Check out "Eric", which is out in paperback in the U.S.,
>finally. Actually, I probably got it about a year ago, so I don't
>know whether it's still in print or not. Also, _Interesting Times_
>is just out in the U.S. in hardcover; it's evidently a Rincewind
>novel, though I'm not sure whether it follows _Eric_ or precedes
>_Sourcery_. (I just got it, and haven't read it yet.)
>
after it, it Starts with Rincewind on a desert island. But thats all
i'll say.
--
aRJay
Celia Malm
Bill MacArthur <billmac...@uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>His later novels are better, then?
Pratchett is one of the more hit-and-miss authors I know of. I didn't
read Strata (which isn't "techinically" a Discworld book, I'm told),
but here's my estimation of his other ones. YMMV, of course.
(I'm sure I'd get these out of order anyway, so I'm going to group
them by basic plotline.)
Books about Rincewind:
_The Colour of Magic_: flawed but funny. Clearly he hadn't thought
discworld through completely at this point.
_The Light Fantastic_: I liked this one. All the good parts of TCoM,
and very few of the bad.
_Sourcery_: Pretty good, really.
_Eric_: I know read this twice and I still can't remember much of the
basic plot. This bodes...
Books about Granny Weatherwax:
_Equal Rites_: I was not impressed with this one. Pratchett has a
tendancy to lose the thread of his plots sometmes, and this was a
prime example.
_Wyrd Sisters_: Another really good one. Shakespeare references
galore.
_Witches Abroad_: A really blah followup.
_Lords and Ladies_: I liked it. It wasn't excellent, but I liked it.
Books about Death:
_Mort_: This is still probably my favorite.
_Reaper Man_: Another excellent book.
_Soul Music_: Not as good as the other ones in this vein, but still
ok.
Miscellaneous:
_Pyramids_ and _Guards! Guards!_: I lump these together because I read
them back to back. Not awful, but fairly forgettable.
_Moving Pictures_: A really good one.
_Small Gods_: Ok.
Haven't read the rest yet.
I would say that a lot of whether you enjoy any particular Pratchett
book is whether you are interested in whatever he's "doing" in that
book. F'r'instance, _Small Gods_ is apparently a take on _Shadow of
the Torturer_, and since I've never read Gene Wolfe, I didn't "get" a
lot of the jokes. My husband, OTOH, really liked it.
Cee
------------------------------------------------
"If I must be this...this thing they have made of me,
I shall at least give it my voice and my heart."
Walker Boh
David Given
In article <5irsf5$s...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Celia Malm <per...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Bill MacArthur <billmac...@uwindsor.ca> wrote:
[...]
>Books about Rincewind:
>_The Colour of Magic_: flawed but funny. Clearly he hadn't thought
>discworld through completely at this point.
_TCoM_ is a straight parody of a Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser
books (remember Weasel and Bravd the Barbarian?). It's good, and funny,
but doesn't stand on its own. (Hint: steal, then read, as much Fafhrd and
the Grey Mouser you can lay your hands on. The later ones sag a little,
but the earlier books are really superb.)
>_The Light Fantastic_: I liked this one. All the good parts of TCoM,
>and very few of the bad.
Didn't like it much. It didn't hang together as well.
[...]
>_Eric_: I know read this twice and I still can't remember much of the
>basic plot. This bodes...
_Eric_ is a picture book. The paperback version only has the words,
though, and it suffers.
>Books about Granny Weatherwax:
>_Equal Rites_: I was not impressed with this one. Pratchett has a
>tendancy to lose the thread of his plots sometmes, and this was a
>prime example.
I thought _Equal Rites_ was one of the best. It's not a comedy; it's a
novel with funny bits. There's a difference. It's definitely plot-oriented
and has things to say.
>_Wyrd Sisters_: Another really good one. Shakespeare references
>galore.
>_Witches Abroad_: A really blah followup.
>_Lords and Ladies_: I liked it. It wasn't excellent, but I liked it.
They're all a bit gimmicky, more gag-driven than plot-driven.
>Books about Death:
>_Mort_: This is still probably my favorite.
Really good. Ranks up with _Equal Rites_ IMHO.
>_Reaper Man_: Another excellent book.
>_Soul Music_: Not as good as the other ones in this vein, but still
>ok.
_Reaper Man_ was a little odd. Half a gag book, half more serious (he
even uses different fonts to differentiate). _Soul music_ was *really*
odd.
>Miscellaneous:
>_Pyramids_ and _Guards! Guards!_: I lump these together because I read
>them back to back. Not awful, but fairly forgettable.
_Pyramids_ was great. I can *believe* the bits about the camels.
>_Moving Pictures_: A really good one.
Enjoyable, but a gag book.
>_Small Gods_: Ok.
_Small Gods_ has been recommended by a multiple-PhD theologian friend of
mine as being one of the best commentaries on religion he's ever read. I'm
not very knowledgable, religionwise, but I think it's his best so far.
[...]
He writes two kinds of books: gag-driven books, and plot-driven books.
_Small Gods_ is a plot-driven book. _Eric_ is a gag-driven book. They're
both good, but different *kinds* of good; I find the gag-driven ones
fairly forgettable, and the plot-driven books memorable and worth
rereading.
Has anyone read _The Dark Side of the Sun_ or _Strata_? Apart from him
continually using `altitude jets' instead of `attitude jets', they're
excellent straight (or rather, twisted) SF.
--
------------------- http://www-hons-cs.cs.st-and.ac.uk/~dg --------------------
If you're up against someone more intelligent than you are, do something
totally insane and let him think himself to death. --- Pyanfar Chanur
---------------- Sun-Earther David Daton Given of Lochcarron ------------------
John M. Lawler
David Given <d...@dufftown.cc.ukans.edu> writes:
>Celia Malm <per...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> _Small Gods_: Ok.
> Small Gods has been recommended by a multiple-PhD theologian friend of
> mine as being one of the best commentaries on religion he's ever read.
> I'm not very knowledgable, religionwise, but I think it's his best so
> far.
Bingo.
I'm only a single-PhD non-theologian, but that was my take, too. I
especially like the comment about the difference between sheep and
goats, religionwise.
Terry Pratchett, the Chuang Tzu of modern fantasy.
-John Lawler http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/jlawler U Michigan Linguistics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." Language (1921)
Robert A. Woodward
In article <19970419015...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rrh...@aol.com
(RRHMAH) wrote:
> In article <jenkins-1804...@kongfuzi.apple.com>,
> jen...@apple.com (John H. Jenkins) writes:
>
> >I'd probably rank "The Dead Past" as Asimov's most unjustly neglected
> >story -- certainly it's one of my half-dozen all-time favorites.
>
> I'm kind of pleased to see so many people in this thread supporting "The
> Dead Past". It's long been my favorite Asimov story.
>
> I think an anthology of "Time Viewer" stories would be pretty neat, and
> pretty good, also. Outstanding examples I can think of, off the top of my
> head, include:
>
> "E for Effort" by T. L. Sherred
> "In the Western Tradition" by Phyllis Eisenstein
> "I See You" by Damon Knight
>
> as well as "The Dead Past", of course. Any others come to anyone's
> mind?
> Rich Horton
_Before the Dawn_ by "John Taine" (Eric Temple Bell) had a time-viewer. I
just saw this mentioned on the Dinosaur SF thread.
RRHMAH
>I'd probably rank "The Dead Past" as Asimov's most unjustly neglected
>story -- certainly it's one of my half-dozen all-time favorites.
I'm kind of pleased to see so many people in this thread supporting "The
Dead Past". It's long been my favorite Asimov story.
I think an anthology of "Time Viewer" stories would be pretty neat, and
pretty good, also. Outstanding examples I can think of, off the top of my
head, include:
"E for Effort" by T. L. Sherred
"In the Western Tradition" by Phyllis Eisenstein
"I See You" by Damon Knight
as well as "The Dead Past", of course. Any others come to anyone's
mind?
Rich Horton
-----------------------------------
I have a web page at www.sff.net/people/richard.horton.
New Reviews: Blue Mars, The Sweetheart Season and Use of Weapons.
Matt McIrvin
> I'm kind of pleased to see so many people in this thread supporting "The
> Dead Past". It's long been my favorite Asimov story.
It also has a better-developed-than-usual character for Asimov. The
surprise ending isn't that much of a surprise if you've read "E for
Effort" or "Private Eye," and it's not entirely plausible that nobody
on the outside managed to figure it out, but the last couple of
sentences are terrific anyway.
> I think an anthology of "Time Viewer" stories would be pretty neat
[...list deleted...]
> Any others come to anyone's mind?
"Private Eye" by Henry Kuttner. In my opinion, it's one of the ten or
twelve best SF short stories ever written--a nearly flawless piece of
work.
Paul D. Shocklee
RRHMAH (rrh...@aol.com) wrote:
[...]
: I think an anthology of "Time Viewer" stories would be pretty neat, and
: pretty good, also. Outstanding examples I can think of, off the top of my
: head, include:
: "E for Effort" by T. L. Sherred
: "In the Western Tradition" by Phyllis Eisenstein
: "I See You" by Damon Knight
: as well as "The Dead Past", of course. Any others come to anyone's
: mind?
I seem to recall a short story in which the main characters developed
some sort of "Time Viewer" with which they could record the past; they
then edited the recordings into movies with the assistance of
lip-readers, and marketed them to the public. They started by making a
movie about the life of Alexander the Great, but they found that they
had to seriously rework the real material to get it to fit the
"historical" expectations. Later they began to release unretouched
films revealing all of the shocking details concerning respected world
figures, including the founders of the major religions.
I think it was by Heinlein, but I can't recall the title.
Does anyone know the story to which I'm referring?
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Paul D. Shocklee - physics grad student - Princeton University |
| When clones are outlawed, only outlaws will have clones. |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mendel Leo Cooper
In article <5jc5bp$dni$2...@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, Paul D. Shocklee wrote:
>RRHMAH (rrh...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: I think an anthology of "Time Viewer" stories would be pretty neat, and
>: pretty good, also. Outstanding examples I can think of, off the top of my
>: head, include:
>
>: "E for Effort" by T. L. Sherred
>
>some sort of "Time Viewer" with which they could record the past; they
>then edited the recordings into movies with the assistance of
>lip-readers, and marketed them to the public. They started by making a
>movie about the life of Alexander the Great, but they found that they
>had to seriously rework the real material to get it to fit the
>"historical" expectations. Later they began to release unretouched
>films revealing all of the shocking details concerning respected world
>figures, including the founders of the major religions.
>
See "E for Effort", above. That's the story.
--
"The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity
and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity
will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy ... neither its
pipes nor its theories will hold water."
===============================================
+ http://personal.riverusers.com/~thegrendel/ +
===============================================
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <334E75...@harvard.com>,
Rebecca Stevenson <hbs-...@harvard.com> wrote:
>
>I heartily recommend Truckers, Diggers, and Wings--a trilogy which I
>understand is rather difficult to find (I got a 3-in-1 titled as "The
>Bromeliad" from a book club). It is occasionally classified as a book
>for younger readers but I've never ceased to enjoy it, and it contains
>many of the major themes which reoccur in his other work.
>
idea, there was way too much of the silly dialogue for me. On the
other hand, if it's the kind of thing you like, there was *plenty*
of it.