Forsaken: Who is the most powerful
Tim947 5
1. Ishamael
2. Demandred
3. Sammael
4. Rahvin
5. Lanfear
6. Semirhage
7. Be'lal
8. Messana
9. Aginor
10. Graendal
11. Moghedian
12. Balthamel
13. Asmodean
I know that several of them such as Demandred, Semirhage, and
Messana have not appeared very much, but I placed them fairly high for
several reasons. In The Fires of Heaven Asmodean comments on how strong
Rand's weaving that held open Aviendha's gateway was. He claimeed that
Demandred was the only Forsaken who could do something like that. Based
on this it can be implied that Demandred is fairly strong. Meessana would
have to be strong in thwe power to be able to remain hidden in the White
Tower. Although she appears only twice in book six, Semirhage seems
strong, based on the fact that Messana felt very uncomfortable around
Semihrage as did most of the otheer Forsaken. If anyone disagrees thhen
go ahead and post a reply.
Andrea Lynn Leistra
Tim947 5 <tim...@aol.com> wrote:
> IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
>
> 1. Ishamael
> 2. Demandred
> 3. Sammael
> 4. Rahvin
> 5. Lanfear
We're told that Lanfear is the second most powerful Forsaken. Since we
haven't seen any evidence to directly contradict this, I see no reason to
think she isn't.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Emma Pease
> 1. Ishamael
> 2. Demandred
> 3. Sammael
> 4. Rahvin
> 5. Lanfear
> 6. Semirhage
> 7. Be'lal
> 8. Messana
> 9. Aginor
> 10. Graendal
> 11. Moghedian
> 12. Balthamel
> 13. Asmodean
We have to be clear in what way we mean the most powerful, absolute
power versus skill in a particular area (e.g., Demandred's ability to
keep a gateway open could be a skill).
Also I'm suspicious about Ish being number 1. The sources for that
info are the Aes Sedai who we know have spotty records. Records that
Ish, the only free forsaken, may have manipulated.
Another thing to ponder, in what order did the forsaken go over to the
DO? We know Graendal came across before Sammael and that Semirhage
was early.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ em...@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht
John C Mumaw
Emma Pease <em...@Kanpai.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>We have to be clear in what way we mean the most powerful, absolute
>power versus skill in a particular area (e.g., Demandred's ability to
>keep a gateway open could be a skill).
>
(snipped) because she may well be a boss healer but relatively weak overall.
That the other Forsaken felt uncomfortable around her doesn't necessarily
indicate that she's strong, just that she's nuts (picture a tall, female
Hannibal Lector in black leather... <grin>).
Also, was there not a quote referring to Demandred as just a touch weaker
and born a day later than Lews Therin? That would put him close to the top,
then, too. Quite a logjam.
Maybe we should ignore all opinions of the Forsaken on this matter - they
all seem to think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread (even Aginor
spoke of matching Lews Therin stroke for stroke, blah blah blah). Unreliable
and biased testimony. On the other hand, their actions might be revealing.
For instance, didn't Perrin (in the wolf dream) see Rahvin and Be'lal arguing
vehemently, and then Ishamael shows up, knocks some heads together and tells
them to behave themselves. This definitely shows Ish to be superior in status
(and presumably in power) to R. and B., and would tend to indicate that R. and
B. are roughly equal (although with less certainty).
-john
--
John C. Mumaw jmu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (614)292-6314
Ohio State University Libraries Columbus, Ohio
michael p gonzalez
Andrea Lynn Leistra <alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>In article <4b82gj$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Tim947 5 <tim...@aol.com> wrote:
>> IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
>>
>> 2. Demandred
>> 3. Sammael
>> 4. Rahvin
>> 5. Lanfear
>
>haven't seen any evidence to directly contradict this, I see no reason to
>think she isn't.
I believe we hear this from modern Aes Sedai and from legends. These
sources, while probably having a grain of truth, are distorted by time.
The Forsaken themselves would have the most credibility here, especially
in their own thoughts, when they are not trying to deceive.
I recall the meeting between Rahvin, Sammael, Lanfear, and Graendal (?).
Looking at the mind of the man from whose POV we see the meeting, he
seems to believe that the men could most likely defeat the women, unless
the women linked. Sammael was actually preparing to strike IIRC, not
likely if he thought Lanfear could do much about it.
I would probably rank Aginor higher than 9th, and Rahvin seems
overrated at 4th, but these rankings I cannot substantiate with
evidence. A list of all Forsaken comparisons in the books might help
(emphasizing those made by the Forsaken themselves, esp. in their
thoughts), but I doubt enough comparisons have been made to make a
complete ranking.
As someone else posted, "strength" may be overrated, with strengths in
particular talents more important. When Mesaana mentally compares
herself with Semirhage, she thinks in terms of Talents and relative
strengths in complementary areas. Just because Sammael might wipe the
floor with Lanfear in an OP fight doesn't mean that Lanfear might not
have controlled the second largest army during the AoL, have been the
second most favored by the Great Lord, or been the second most feared, etc
etc. I have no problem believing that Lanfear is the second most
-dangerous- of the Forsaken.
Michael Gonzalez
m...@dodo.crown.net
Jeff Smith
Effective OP ratings. Effective OP=Raw OP x OP knowledge
Men Women
1. Ishamael 1. Lanfear
2/3. Aginor/Balthamel 2/3. Semirhage/Mesaana
4. Demandred 4. Graendal
5/6/7. Rahvin/Be'lal/Sammael 5. Moghedian
8. Asmodean
Men's Reasons:
1. Ishamael was only partially caught--he apparently was free in T'A'R
for 3000 years since the Breaking. The fact he operated after LTT sealed
the bore indicates he's the most effective of the lot. I'm inferring
those who got out first were the strongest.
2/3. Aginor/Balthamel were only partially trapped by LTT & Co. They
got out even before the first seal broke. Lanfear is probably equal
to them in raw power, but she seems to know more, and on the net is more
powerful. She got out right after the 1st seal broke.
4. Demandred got kudos from Asmo and maybe in raw OP he is stronger than
the others but he's been less effective than Ishy or the other two, so in
net, he's 4th.
5/6/7. Can't distinguish these guys. They're all less than Ishy, since
he broke up the fight between Rahvin & Be'lal. Sammael acts like
Rahvin's equal in TFoH. They all capture territory and kingships after
they were released.
8. Asmo's weakness is documented by Lanfear, and the DO.
Women's Reasons
1. Everyone says she's the best--AS records even Mesaana's POV in LoC
indicate that Sem. is jealous of her. She selected her own name, not the
DO. This may mean something.
2. Mesaana thinks they're equal. Who am I to argue? Both turned many to
the DO--S by torture, M. by "education".
3. G. may be equal to S&M. She's sneakier than either. She certainly
_wants_ them to think she is weaker.
4. The sneakiest of all. Is her non-confrontational style a sign of
weakness or fear? Birgitte says she is stronger than Lanfear in T'A'R.
Don't fight her there. Very effective at getting info. The perfect spy
for the DO.
There's not much data to go on--but that's what keeps this group at 200+
entries/day.
--
Jeff Smith
309-675-2083
smi...@cat.com
Caterpillar Inc.
Daniel Wright
>We have to be clear in what way we mean the most powerful, absolute
>power versus skill in a particular area (e.g., Demandred's ability to
>keep a gateway open could be a skill).
Yeah, Messana says in LoC that she can equal Semirhage because
one's weakness is the other's strength. I think that the Forsaken
are pretty well matched anyway, otherwise they'd all beat the, well
since I'm not supposed to say it, beat one another up.
>Also I'm suspicious about Ish being number 1. The sources for that
>info are the Aes Sedai who we know have spotty records. Records that
>Ish, the only free forsaken, may have manipulated.>
Yes. See point above and this also could explain the mysterious
disappearance of so much knowledge. In spite of everyhting, more would
have been saved that is portrayed.
This also raises the question of why Ish. did so little during his
freedom. Did he go and gather a hoard of angreal and ter'angreal. Or
was his staff perhaps one in the EoTW (I'm not sure about this).
I alos wonder if he was the sucker up of stasis boxes, and wouldn't
any of us give our souls up for one?
>Another thing to ponder, in what order did the forsaken go over to the
>DO? We know Graendal came across before Sammael and that Semirhage
>was early.
We know, or at least are 90% sure that Lanfear was the first. Ishamael
and the others join much later, during the WoP. I'd say the Messana was
an early joiner as well.
Daniel Wright.
--
Daniel
John C Mumaw
>
> Has it been discussed how free Ish actually was? AFAIR it he was said
>to be only half-bound...
Does this refer to Moggy (?) saying something along the lines of "He was
so proud of being only half-bound, but I think he is less human than any of
us"? I always assumed that that referred to being bound to the DO, not being
bound by the seals. Maybe Ish just deals in dreams because he's good at it.
Anyway, in real life he probably didn't have fire shooting out of his eyes and
other diabolic accoutrements.
Aaron Bergman
:2/3. Aginor/Balthamel were only partially trapped by LTT & Co. They
:got out even before the first seal broke. Lanfear is probably equal
:to them in raw power, but she seems to know more, and on the net is more
:powerful. She got out right after the 1st seal broke.
How deep they were buried probably has no relation to total power.
Aaron
--------
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://minerva.cis.yale.edu/~abergman/abergman.html>
"If only god would give me some clear sign! Like making
a large deposit in my name at a Swissbank." -- Woody Allen
Michael Nielsen
> IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
>
> 1. Ishamael
> 2. Demandred
> 3. Sammael
> 4. Rahvin
> 5. Lanfear
> 7. Be'lal
> 8. Messana
> 9. Aginor
> 10. Graendal
> 11. Moghedian
> 12. Balthamel
> 13. Asmodean
>
>Messana have not appeared very much, but I placed them fairly high for
>several reasons. In The Fires of Heaven Asmodean comments on how strong
>Rand's weaving that held open Aviendha's gateway was. He claimeed that
>Demandred was the only Forsaken who could do something like that. Based
>on this it can be implied that Demandred is fairly strong. Meessana would
>have to be strong in thwe power to be able to remain hidden in the White
>Tower. Although she appears only twice in book six, Semirhage seems
>strong, based on the fact that Messana felt very uncomfortable around
>Semihrage as did most of the otheer Forsaken. If anyone disagrees thhen
>go ahead and post a reply.
In tEotW we are told that Aginor was not far behind Ishamael or LTT in
strength. We are also told that Lanfear was the second most powerful of
the Forsaken. Based on this I would place Lanfear second and Aginor
third.
Why would Messaana have to be powerful to remain hidden in the white tower?
It seems to be a simple matter of inverting weaves, which Elayne is easily
able to do in LoC, and I don't think she is Forsaken-class.
I don't think much can be inferred from the fact most of the Forsaken
feel uncomfortable around Semirhage. Wouldn't _you_ feel uncomfortable
around Semirhage, no matter what your power?
--
Michael Nielsen
http://tangelo.phys.unm.edu/~mnielsen/index.html
roney graf
><
>This also raises the question of why Ish. did so little during his
>freedom. Did he go and gather a hoard of angreal and ter'angreal. Or
>was his staff perhaps one in the EoTW (I'm not sure about this).
>
>I also wonder if he was the sucker up of stasis boxes, and wouldn't
>any of us give our souls up for one?
><
Has it been discussed how free Ish actually was? AFAIR it he was said
to be only half-bound, and I don't think he could actually walk around
in the material world, in the flesh. After all, whenever he meets or
confronts Rand it's either in Rand's dream (several times in EotW),
in the world of 'if' (in TGH), in the fog/sky of Falme (whatever that
place was; TGH), or in T'a'R in Tear (TDR). He did show up in the flesh
in the showdown of TDR, but by then the others were free as well.
The only appearance that doesn't fit in is his very first: In the prologue
of EotW he walks in on LTT (out of shimmering air, not through a gateway)
and makes him see the mess he's made. That was after the sealing, and it
looks like it was the real world.
So, could he have been gathering angreal and stasis boxes or not?
rg
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Dovie'andi se tovya sagain @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
EndeRand1
writes:
> IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
>
> 1. Ishamael
> 2. Demandred
> 3. Sammael
> 4. Rahvin
> 5. Lanfear
> 6. Semirhage
> 7. Be'lal
> 8. Messana
> 9. Aginor
> 10. Graendal
> 11. Moghedian
> 12. Balthamel
> 13. Asmodean
>
>
[rest munched]
no way! Sure, Demandred would have to be strong for the reason you gave
(Asmodean said that only Ish and maybe Demandred could hold a gateway
open), but Lanfear would definately be number 3. Even though males are
usually stronger in the OP, I seem to recall many occasions where it was
said that Lanfear was way up there...I believe someone said she rivaled
Ish or something (doubtful)...sadly, I can't locate the quotes. At the
very least, Lanfear should be above Rahvin, simply because Rand dispatched
Rahvin with such ease. Granted, Rand is the DR and I believe he had the
fat man angreal at the time, but a strong forsaken should have been able
to hold him off for a longer time.
Bret C. Rediker
>In article <4b82gj$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tim...@aol.com (Tim947 5)
>writes:
>
>> IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
>>
>> 1. Ishamael
>> 2. Demandred
>> 3. Sammael
>> 4. Rahvin
>> 5. Lanfear
>> 6. Semirhage
>> 7. Be'lal
>> 8. Messana
>> 9. Aginor
>> 10. Graendal
>> 11. Moghedian
>> 12. Balthamel
>> 13. Asmodean
>>
>>
>
>[rest munched]
>
>dispatched Rahvin with such ease. Granted, Rand is the DR and I believe
>he had the fat man angreal at the time, but a strong forsaken should have
>been able to hold him off for a longer time.
With such ease? Rand was on his way to becoming a lower form of the Animal
Kingdom with no way to stop Rahvin. If it was not for Nynaeve, Rand would
probably be grunting, snuffling and looking for truffles right now.
I agree with the first five choices, the rest.....? You don't know enough about
Balthamel or Aginor to make a true judgement. Moghedian's whining and
sniffling when Rand and Rahvin were going at it, not to mention her preclusion
towards hiding out instead of confrontation, says how much stock she puts in her
own abilities with regards to the others. Be'lal was probably as tough as Rahvin or
Sammael, but was taken by surprise and payed the price. Graendal is about right
on the list. Messanna: need more info. As for Asmodean, he's also tougher than
he appears, but just not the mental giant needed to be truly a bad ass..
-BCR the Revenant
I must become a borrower of the night
For a dark hour or twain.
roney graf
>> Has it been discussed how free Ish actually was? AFAIR it he was said
>>to be only half-bound...
>
> Does this refer to Moggy (?) saying something along the lines of "He was
>so proud of being only half-bound, but I think he is less human than any of
>us"? I always assumed that that referred to being bound to the DO, not being
>bound by the seals. Maybe Ish just deals in dreams because he's good at it.
Err - yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. Is that really the only time
this has been mentioned? I never thought the GL would tolerate powerful guys
like Ish to be just 'half-bound', whatever that may mean technically. Perhaps
we could get some more opinions here?
>Anyway, in real life he probably didn't have fire shooting out of his eyes and
>other diabolic accoutrements.
Sure didn't.
Thanx for the reply.
rg
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Ninte cuen mia mandarb mahdein @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Raven
>
> :2/3. Aginor/Balthamel were only partially trapped by LTT & Co. They
> :got out even before the first seal broke. Lanfear is probably equal
> :to them in raw power, but she seems to know more, and on the net is more
> :powerful. She got out right after the 1st seal broke.
>
> How deep they were buried probably has no relation to total power.
>
I don't know. Ish was arrogant about being only partialy trapped,
so perhaps there is something to it. Also, Aginor was at least in
the top four, of the Forsaken. Remember his saying that he'd traded
blow for blow with LTT in the Hall of Servants. That would put him
up the with Demandred I would say, and gives us a clue as to who
Aginor might be pretending to be.
===================================================================
Raven ra...@ccinet.ab.ca (Canada)
Rather suffer than die is man's motto!!
Devindra Persaud
Is it me, or does anyone else get the impression every Forsaken would
claim they can "trade blow for blow" with LTT? They each have rather
high opinions of their abilities.
Rocky
Rocky_...@tvo.org
michael p gonzalez
Jazza <jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
----<clip>----
>
>Wrongo. Recall the meeting between the four Forsaken at the start of FoH:
>Rhavin asks Lanfear "Is he really that strong? This Rand al'Thor. Could
>he have this Rand al'Thor have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?" Not that he
>couldn't himself, if it came to that, or Sammael.
>Hence, Lanfear is weaker than these two, and since Rahvin is on a par with
>Be'lal (from their confrontation in Perrin's wolf dream) it follows that
>she is weaker than him, too.
Agreed. I get the feeling that that conversation marked the overall
shift from "Lanfear, said to be the strongest next to Ishamael himself" to
"the men are stronger than the women in the OP."
>We also know that Aginor was quite strong as well, since he traded blow
>for blow with Lews Therin in the Hall of Servants. So a likely list would
>go something like this:
>1. Ishamael (obviously)
>2. Demandred
>3. Aginor
>4/5/6. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael (roughly equal)
>7. Balthamel
>8. Asmodean
>9. Lanfear
Asmodean stronger than Lanfear? Lanfear seemed to dominate Asmo, and
certainly used him as she wanted. Either this ranking is wrong, or it
highlights how OP strength comparisons really aren't significant in and
of themselves.
Michael Gonzalez
m...@dodo.crown.net
Daniel Wright
>We also know that Aginor was quite strong as well, since he traded blow
>for blow with Lews Therin in the Hall of Servants. So a likely list would
>go something like this:
Maybe, but Rand beat him and Balthamel on the same day to a pulp.
This makes me wonder if a disentegrating body does make it harder
to concentrate on the OP. Of course the two Forsaken could simply
have been careless.
Daniel Wright.
--
Daniel
Daniel Wright
>for the women (no sexual innuendo here, please...) ... as for the men,
>it's also obvious Asmo is on the bottom ... I put Aginor at the #2/#3
>spot becuase the the comment that he met LTT stroke-for-stroke in the
>Hall of the Servants in the AoL ... he shares his spot with Balthamael
>because I always pictured them at equal Power levels. >
Why does everyone automatically assume that what the
Forsaken said was the truth? We know that they were
all as arrogant as hell and as well, never mind. But
the fact is that Aginor saw his fight with LTT
as a great acheivement, which in fact shows that he
isn't that strong.
If Aginor had on the other hand said something like
"God I thrashed LTT in the Hall of Servants" then I'd
have a little more respect for him, but since he says
they were equally matched, I'd assume that in fact he
lost miserably. You all also forget that if Aginor and
Bal. were so high, Rand should have no problem with the
other Forsaken.
Daniel Wright.
--
Daniel
michael bruce
>
>Daniel Wright wrote:
>
> Has it been discussed how free Ish actually was? AFAIR it he was said
>to be only half-bound, and I don't think he could actually walk around
>in the material world, in the flesh. After all, whenever he meets or
>confronts Rand it's either in Rand's dream (several times in EotW),
>in the world of 'if' (in TGH), in the fog/sky of Falme (whatever that
>place was; TGH), or in T'a'R in Tear (TDR). He did show up in the flesh
>in the showdown of TDR, but by then the others were free as well.
See the prologue of tEotW. LTT is already nuts, which tells me that they
already sealed the bore, and Ishamael gives him the sanity to know what he had
done (killed his family). This leads me to believe that Ishamael was never
totally sealed in the bore. I also think he'll be back, but thats another
discussion altogether.
--
mab
br...@infinet.com
http://www.infinet.com
Roger, Erik, and Brett Larson
>Aaron Bergman wrote:
>>
>> :2/3. Aginor/Balthamel were only partially trapped by LTT & Co. They
>> :got out even before the first seal broke. Lanfear is probably equal
>> :to them in raw power, but she seems to know more, and on the net is more
>> :powerful. She got out right after the 1st seal broke.
Well, actually, in tEotW, the official rationale was that Aginor and
Balthamael were trapped "close to the surface", hence their totally
Grumpy/Horny Old Men look. :)
Apparently, the OP CAN do some permanent body reshaping, becuase once
Aginor started to draw on the Eye he got
younger,harder-looking,stronger, etc .... if that's not permanent
body-shaping I dunno what is.
>> How deep they were buried probably has no relation to total power.
>>
True. How deep they were buried probably has to do with where they
were physically located at the precise moment LTT&Friends sealed the
Bore. My guess is that Aginor and Balthamael were on the fringe of the
effect, and Ishamael was either not present or in TAR when the sealing
happened.
>I don't know. Ish was arrogant about being only partialy trapped,
>so perhaps there is something to it. Also, Aginor was at least in
>the top four, of the Forsaken. Remember his saying that he'd traded
>blow for blow with LTT in the Hall of Servants. That would put him
>up the with Demandred I would say, and gives us a clue as to who
>Aginor might be pretending to be.
OK ... here's MY take on this whole relative Power-level thread:
Male: Female:
1) Ishamael 1) Lanfear
2) Aginor/Balthamael 2) Mesaana / Semirhage
4) Demandred 4) Moghedien / Graendel
5) Sammael
6) Bel'al/Rahvin
8) Asmodean
It's fairly obvious that Ishy is on top for the men, and Lanfear is
for the women (no sexual innuendo here, please...) ... as for the men,
it's also obvious Asmo is on the bottom ... I put Aginor at the #2/#3
spot becuase the the comment that he met LTT stroke-for-stroke in the
Hall of the Servants in the AoL ... he shares his spot with Balthamael
because I always pictured them at equal Power levels.
Now that I've totally butchered the elipsis (...) it's time to let the
debate commence... :)
Erik (delurking for once to offer unwarranted and prolly unheeded
insights)
Roger, Erik, and Brett Larson
lars...@netaxs.com
One is bald, one is in college and the other marches. All are identical.
Jazza
(EndeRand1) wrote:
> In article <4b82gj$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tim...@aol.com (Tim947 5)
> writes:
>
> > IMHO they would be ranked something likee this:
> >
> > 1. Ishamael
> > 2. Demandred
> > 3. Sammael
> > 4. Rahvin
> > 5. Lanfear
> > 6. Semirhage
> > 7. Be'lal
> > 8. Messana
> > 9. Aginor
> > 10. Graendal
> > 11. Moghedian
> > 12. Balthamel
> > 13. Asmodean
> >
> >
>
> [rest munched]
>
> no way! Sure, Demandred would have to be strong for the reason you gave
> (Asmodean said that only Ish and maybe Demandred could hold a gateway
> open), but Lanfear would definately be number 3. Even though males are
> usually stronger in the OP, I seem to recall many occasions where it was
> said that Lanfear was way up there...I believe someone said she rivaled
> Ish or something (doubtful)...sadly, I can't locate the quotes. At the
> very least, Lanfear should be above Rahvin, simply because Rand dispatched
> Rahvin with such ease. Granted, Rand is the DR and I believe he had the
> fat man angreal at the time, but a strong forsaken should have been able
> to hold him off for a longer time.
Wrongo. Recall the meeting between the four Forsaken at the start of FoH:
Rhavin asks Lanfear "Is he really that strong? This Rand al'Thor. Could
he have this Rand al'Thor have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?" Not that he
couldn't himself, if it came to that, or Sammael.
Hence, Lanfear is weaker than these two, and since Rahvin is on a par with
Be'lal (from their confrontation in Perrin's wolf dream) it follows that
she is weaker than him, too.
We also know that Aginor was quite strong as well, since he traded blow
for blow with Lews Therin in the Hall of Servants. So a likely list would
go something like this:
1. Ishamael (obviously)
2. Demandred
3. Aginor
4/5/6. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael (roughly equal)
7. Balthamel
8. Asmodean
9. Lanfear
10/11. Semirhage, Mesaana
12.Graendal
13. Moghedien
Bret C. Rediker
>Jazza (jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
>
>>We also know that Aginor was quite strong as well, since he traded blow
>>for blow with Lews Therin in the Hall of Servants. So a likely list would
>>go something like this:
>
>This makes me wonder if a disentegrating body does make it harder
>to concentrate on the OP. Of course the two Forsaken could simply
>have been careless.
Remember, that Balthamel was killed by the Green Man and not by
Rand. Aginor, on the other hand, was regaining his strength and
form by draining the Eye of the World. Yes, they were careless.
Daniel Wright
>. Maybe Ish just deals in dreams because he's good at it.
>Anyway, in real life he probably didn't have fire shooting out of his eyes and
>other diabolic accoutrements.
Well in TDR they say that the body began to rot really quickly,
it could be that the only thing that kept Ish. going was the
OP, just like Rahvin at the end of TFoH. Maybe Ish. thought the
sacrifice of his body or a few... transformations was worth it,
he was totally nuts anyway.
Daniel Wright.
--
Daniel
Raven
> >Raven wrote:
> >I don't know. Ish was arrogant about being only partialy trapped,
> >so perhaps there is something to it. Also, Aginor was at least in
> >the top four, of the Forsaken. Remember his saying that he'd traded
> >blow for blow with LTT in the Hall of Servants. That would put him
> >up the with Demandred I would say, and gives us a clue as to who
> >Aginor might be pretending to be.
> Is it me, or does anyone else get the impression every Forsaken would
> claim they can "trade blow for blow" with LTT? They each have rather
> high opinions of their abilities.
That is one element of Robert Jordan's writing that makes this series
such a success. He does not always explain something outright but has
a character make reference to something, through their own eyes. Since
it is through that characters own eyes we are often given a biased answer.
One that we can either take as truth, part truth, or outright lie. In Aginor's
case, and any Darkfriend's or Forsaken's for that matter, we have to be careful
in what we believe. But as well, we often times have no other refernces to go on
so we are foreced to accept a Forsaken's quote. I think that in this case we can
believe that Aginor did what he said. He wasn't boasting really, just stating fact
with someone he saw as his inferior. Did not Moraine also say that Aginor was a
powerful Channeler, and besides that I'm sure it took some ability to create the
Shadowspawn.
===================================================================
Raven ra...@ccinet.ab.ca (Canada)
A closed book is like a closed mind. Nothing goes in. Nothing comes out
Raven
> See the prologue of tEotW. LTT is already nuts, which tells me that they
> already sealed the bore, and Ishamael gives him the sanity to know what he had
> done (killed his family). This leads me to believe that Ishamael was never
> totally sealed in the bore. I also think he'll be back, but thats another
> discussion altogether.
We do see Ish in tEotW prologue, but does anyone besides myself notice
that he wa not really channeling the OP but using TAR to Travel and
the power of the DO to heal LTT. This leads me to believe that is
Ish wasn't as powerful in TAR as he is, was, whatever, (I think he's
Shaidar Haran by the way) he woul dhave been much more ineffective
over the 2000 years of his partial containment. I think that even
partialy trapped was enough to stop him from being able to Channel.
John Dillinger
more powerful Forsaken. Now this probably just means the top half, but
with that in mind, he should be higher on the lists I've seen so far. It
is very difficult to pick once you get past the obvious choices of
Ishamael and Lanfear at 1 and 2. Those have been stated quite clearly
throughout the series. As for Asmodean's reference to Demandred and
gateways, do not forget that all wielders of the OP are stronger in
certain areas. Nynaeve's strength lies in healing, while Moghedien is
the strongest among the Forsaken when it comes to Tel'aran'rhiod.
Aziz
Daniel Wright
>> See the prologue of tEotW. LTT is already nuts, which tells me that they
>> already sealed the bore, and Ishamael gives him the sanity to know what he had
>> done (killed his family). This leads me to believe that Ishamael was never
>> totally sealed in the bore. I also think he'll be back, but thats another
>> discussion altogether.?
>We do see Ish in tEotW prologue, but does anyone besides myself notice
>that he wa not really channeling the OP but using TAR to Travel and
>the power of the DO to heal LTT. This leads me to believe that is
>Ish wasn't as powerful in TAR as he is, was, whatever, (I think he's
>Shaidar Haran by the way) he woul dhave been much more ineffective
>over the 2000 years of his partial containment. I think that even
>partialy trapped was enough to stop him from being able to Channel.
Right, if Ish. healed LTT with the DO's power, than why does
he channel? It seems to me that the power taken from the DO is
slightly better than that of the TS, meaning that it can accomplish
greater things, ie:it Healed LTT.
This is significant because Ish. says that he was never skilled at
healing, and I don't understand if he could heal it, then why AS
who could Heal didn't go running around Healing all the insane
male AS.
However this does make me wonder if you could somehow use the
Creator's power to heal madness.
Daniel Wright.
--
I've finally found out how to change it!
Mow all I need is a sig.
Jazza
mpgo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (michael p gonzalez) wrote:
> In article <jlaughli-221...@ts-h08-15-3.ucc.su.oz.au>,
> Jazza <jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
> >1. Ishamael (obviously)
> >2. Demandred
> >3. Aginor
> >4/5/6. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael (roughly equal)
> >7. Balthamel
> >8. Asmodean
> >9. Lanfear
>
> Asmodean stronger than Lanfear? Lanfear seemed to dominate Asmo, and
> certainly used him as she wanted. Either this ranking is wrong, or it
> highlights how OP strength comparisons really aren't significant in and
> of themselves.
But don't forget that at the time when she shielded him, Asmodean was
already gravely weakened by the conflict with Rand. The reason she
dominated him at other times was through a dominant personality, not
greater strength in the OP.
--
It was wonderful to find America, but it would have been more wonderful to miss it. - Mark Twain
Chris Nolan
others, just more imaginative and inventive. If Aginor was stronger than
Rahvin, Rand could have beaten him to a pulp in a matter of seconds with
his angreal in tFoH. Obviously, Aginor was (is) not as strong as first
believed, but perhaps his strengths lay in the same way as Semirhage's,
in life/death as he managed to create all sorts of creatures.
I just have to add here that Ishamael never died, but was temporarily
disposed, not even like Aran'gar.
Steve Frishcosy
: Right, if Ish. healed LTT with the DO's power, than why does
: he channel? It seems to me that the power taken from the DO is
: slightly better than that of the TS, meaning that it can accomplish
: greater things, ie:it Healed LTT.
But the DO was the one who did the deed. I think
that makes a difference as to why it was possible for Ishy to
Heal LTT with the DO's power regardless of his ability to
Heal with saidin.
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Steve Frishcosy - - - - - SNFR...@oakland.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Wright
>Daniel Wright (10133...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
>: Right, if Ish. healed LTT with the DO's power, than why does
>: he channel? It seems to me that the power taken from the DO is
>: slightly better than that of the TS, meaning that it can accomplish
>: greater things, ie:it Healed LTT.
> But the DO was the one who did the deed. I think
>that makes a difference as to why it was possible for Ishy to
>Heal LTT with the DO's power regardless of his ability to
>Heal with saidin.
Ohhhhhh! That explains it then, I always thought that Ishy __used__
the DO's power, which always came as a bit of a shock because it
contradicted everything else that we knew.
But, if what you say is true, then I'd say that Ish. was Nae'blis
because why don't the other Forsaken use the DO's power to either
escape Rand, or destroy him?
Daniel Wright.
--
"I HAVE WON AGAIN LEWS THERIN"
I study the Age of Legends to understand the future.
Dustin M. Scharf
But remember that strength in Tel'aran'rhiod has nothing to do with strength in
the one power, aside from the advantages that being able to use the OP at all.
Somewhere along the line it was stated (I think by eigher Birgette or Moghedien
herself) that Lanfear 'ruled' Tel'aran'rhiod out of sheer strength in the OP,
even though Moghedien was 'stronger' (i.e. more skilled or more innately
talented) when in Tel'aran'rhiod. The point being that this would tend to
discount Moghedien as being one of the stronger in the OP, and based on her
personality and what we know of her, I would think she is actually one of the
weaker Forsaken.
my 2 cents-
Dusty.
Teemu T Vilen
: In article <4begcv$i...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
: > >1. Ishamael (obviously)
: > >2. Demandred
: > >3. Aginor
: > >4/5/6. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael (roughly equal)
: > >7. Balthamel
: > >8. Asmodean
: > >9. Lanfear
You obviously seem to be concerned about the One Power only. Here, for
example Graendal isn't mentioned because of her relatively weak(not!)
ability with the One Power. But would you consider her harmless because
of that? Even among the Chosen? Every one of the Chosen has his/her strong
and weak points, some of them have their way with the Power, some are
adept in other matters. Sammael's abilities as a tactician must be quite
considerable, as well as Graendel's skill with the minds, she DOES
manipulate even the other Chosen after all...(WoTMud people..?)
--
--- TTVilen
And all those typos were written on purpose, just to amuse you.
num...@fl.net.au
(Teemu T Vilen) wrote:
> Jazza (jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
> : In article <4begcv$i...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
>
> : > >1. Ishamael (obviously)
> : > >2. Demandred
> : > >3. Aginor
> : > >4/5/6. Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammael (roughly equal)
> : > >7. Balthamel
> : > >8. Asmodean
> : > >9. Lanfear
>
> You obviously seem to be concerned about the One Power only.
The thread WAS asking who was the strongest in the OP, so that's probably
why he's concerned about it.
> Here, for
> example Graendal isn't mentioned because of her relatively weak(not!)
> ability with the One Power. But would you consider her harmless because
> of that? Even among the Chosen? Every one of the Chosen has his/her strong
> and weak points, some of them have their way with the Power, some are
> adept in other matters. Sammael's abilities as a tactician must be quite
> considerable, as well as Graendel's skill with the minds, she DOES
> manipulate even the other Chosen after all...(WoTMud people..?)
Of course they're dangerous. That's why their called Forsaken, remember.
But while Graendal may have manipulated Sammael, he manipulated her back
just as easily.
E. Hunter Godfrey
Sorry to but in, but also remember that the Forsaken were some of the most
powerful Aes Sedai at the time they turned to the Dark One. And there have not
been any Aes Sedai since to rival their power. Yes, compared to Rand they
may appear fairly weak, but he is the Dragon Reborn after all.
Dustin Gilbert
Hunt...@scott.net
Teemu T Vilen
: (Teemu T Vilen) wrote:
: > Jazza (jlau...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
: > : In article <4begcv$i...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
: >
:
: The thread WAS asking who was the strongest in the OP, so that's probably
: why he's concerned about it.
Sorry I missed it, but the even the way the Chosen use the One Power
obviously varies, not only between male and female FS. I myself wouldn't
be concerned so much about Sammael's abilities with Earth and Fire when
Rahvin as a manipulator of people is more a threat(though a dead
one...).
: Of course they're dangerous. That's why their called Forsaken, remember.
: But while Graendal may have manipulated Sammael, he manipulated her back
: just as easily.
(This isn't about their relative powers at all anymore, I'm sorry...)
In my belief they are dangerous because there is no one who has their
abilities, where many warriors in WoT could match a male FS phycally, who
could match them when they're filled with the OP(Rand not included)?
You really think it was Sammael in the end who manipulating Graendal?
Just remember who's who... Even Sammeal admits he could never learn to
know Graendal fully.
Sorry if I disturbed the Weaving of this Thread.