About Pedron Niall
Alex Rochette
People who post here regularly probably will dissmiss this
question quickly, but I would at least like to have at least a yes or
no answer to let me know if this has been discussed and "resolved"
yet. Please just don't ignore this, let me know what has been
suggested or discussed...:)
Ok so here it is, several secondary characters have died or
disappeared in ways that would seem unsatisfactory, they seemed to
have died before their time, so we of course expect them to resurface
eventually. Now if we put aside the more obvious people, we have
people like Pedron Niall, Pevin (who RJ seemed to take the time to
describe like he was giving some importance to him then kills him off,
I read he might have been Sammael) and there are also those people who
have acheived some kind of legendary status like Jain Farstrider ( who
I read somewhere might be Min's dad or something) also those Aiel
channelers who went to die in the Blight (I'm not sure if that's
something Rand's biological dad did as well...?)
So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
somehow. He just seemed like someone who's will kept him alive for so
long and who's will might even fend off death in someway. Now I know
that he's THE Whitecloak so it would be out of character, but if the
DO were to disguise himself (or not) and just the fact that he might
give Niall the chance to come back and do some damage (not necessarily
as a channeler, just as a man) wouldn't it be possible that Niall
would accept? He has so much to come back for! He would be a usefull
tool for the DO. So who would he be? Does this make any sense at all?
Could he be that old man following them in Ebou Dar for example or has
it been concluded that that was Jain? any possible younger guys? In
the FAQ about the Geezer on the Barrel, it says it might also be
Geofram Bornhold or Graendal's old man confused because of
Compulsion. The confusion that the Old man manifests would account for
Niall not having any clear memories, but he knows who Carridin is
though. I think Niall should be added...don't you think?
PM Bowles
On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Alex Rochette wrote:
>
>
> People who post here regularly probably will dissmiss this
> question quickly, but I would at least like to have at least a yes or
> no answer to let me know if this has been discussed and "resolved"
> yet. Please just don't ignore this, let me know what has been
> suggested or discussed...:)
> Ok so here it is, several secondary characters have died or
> disappeared in ways that would seem unsatisfactory, they seemed to
> have died before their time, so we of course expect them to resurface
> eventually. Now if we put aside the more obvious people, we have
> people like Pedron Niall, Pevin (who RJ seemed to take the time to
> describe like he was giving some importance to him then kills him off,
> I read he might have been Sammael) and there are also those people who
> have acheived some kind of legendary status like Jain Farstrider ( who
> I read somewhere might be Min's dad or something) also those Aiel
> channelers who went to die in the Blight (I'm not sure if that's
> something Rand's biological dad did as well...?)
Janduin, Rand's father, was killed during the Aiel War, I believe; he
was the leader and uniter of the clans and could not channel.
> So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
> discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
> somehow. He just seemed like someone who's will kept him alive for so
> long and who's will might even fend off death in someway. Now I know
> that he's THE Whitecloak so it would be out of character, but if the
> DO were to disguise himself (or not) and just the fact that he might
> give Niall the chance to come back and do some damage (not necessarily
> as a channeler, just as a man) wouldn't it be possible that Niall
> would accept? He has so much to come back for! He would be a usefull
> tool for the DO. So who would he be? Does this make any sense at all?
> Could he be that old man following them in Ebou Dar for example or has
> it been concluded that that was Jain?
I thought Farstrider was dead. Pedron Niall certainly is; we saw the
event through his own eyes so it clearly couldn't have been an
impostor, and I doubt he'd choose to be resurrected. If Valda and
Asunawa hadn't had Niall killed, the Seanchan would have done so anyway.
I don't think the Whitecloaks will remain a major power.
any possible younger guys? In
> the FAQ about the Geezer on the Barrel, it says it might also be
> Geofram Bornhold or Graendal's old man confused because of
> Compulsion. The confusion that the Old man manifests would account for
> Niall not having any clear memories, but he knows who Carridin is
> though. I think Niall should be added...don't you think?
Niall didn't know about Carridin. I have no idea who the old man is, I
must admit.
Philip Bowles
RiMiNis
Alex Rochette wrote:
> So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
>discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
>somehow.
NO, I think that Niall is truly dead and that his death ultimately frees up a
way for Galad to become head of the Whitecloaks.(He is after all a great
military leader coming from both royalty and Tower training)
Mad Alice
PM Bowles wrote in message ...
>On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Alex Rochette wrote:
{snip}
>>...also those Aiel
>> channelers who went to die in the Blight (I'm not sure if that's
>> something Rand's biological dad did as well...?)
>
>Janduin, Rand's father, was killed during the Aiel War, I believe; he
>was the leader and uniter of the clans and could not channel.
>
>Philip Bowles
Actually, Janduin was so stricken with Shaiel's death that he went north
with the young men to fight Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Blight. He was
killed by a man with a face like Shaiel's...who must have been Luc. This is
related in TSR, Chapter 34 "He Who Comes With the Dawn", as told to Rand by
Bair. ( pg. 564 pb). And he was actually killed by this man according to
the young men, he refused to raise his spear because the man had Shaiel's
face.
Alice
(...off with their heads...)
Drew Gillmore
RiMiNis <rim...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980316040...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Not to mention the death (finally) of Jaichim Carradin. (I hope).
--
Kid Probability dr...@cats.ucsc.edu
Alex Rochette
On 16 Mar 1998 04:04:36 GMT, rim...@aol.com (RiMiNis) wrote:
>Alex Rochette wrote:
>> So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
>>discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
>>somehow.
>
>NO, I think that Niall is truly dead and that his death ultimately frees up a
>way for Galad to become head of the Whitecloaks.(He is after all a great
>military leader coming from both royalty and Tower training)
>
yeah, it makes sense, but he'll have trouble getting through Asunawa
and the other guy (I haven't read the books in a while! can't remember
his name) it won't be such an easy way up...
But you don't think he would fit in at all as the Old Man on the
Barrel?
He can't remember parts of his past (ACoS: 17: The Triumph of Logic,
318):
"His head felt... peculiar... sometimes. Most often, when he thought
of what he could not remember."
He used to be a fighter of some kind, and he's still proficient with
knives (ACoS: 17: The Triumph
of Logic, 319):
"His hands no longer possessed the strength or flexibility for
swordwork, but the two long knives he
had carried for well over thirty years had surprised more than one
swordsman."
I know this could be Farstrider, but it seems like it could apply to a
befuddled and ressurected Niall who dosen't have to be a Whitecloak
to be an unwitting tool for the DO. Of course I just shafted myself
by saying this cause I said he would have reasons to accept being
brought back...but maybe he wasn't given a choice and was just
brainwashed??
Bill Garrett
roc...@magellan.umontreal.ca (Alex Rochette) writes:
}
} So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
} discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
} somehow.
How do you propose for him to have escaped death? Last we saw him,
he had a bad chest wound and was being watched over by a man who
waited to see him die.
--
Bill Garrett Lead me not into temptation...
wfg1 @ concentric.net unless you know a shortcut I don't.
PM Bowles
All of which must simply be speculation (on Bair's part), as Janduin
didn't survive to tell of his experiences and none of the Aiel who go to
the Blight come back; we do know that Luc has met Aiel before, but he
made no reference to a particular one (suggesting that he didn't know
who Janduin was; he'd certainly have boasted about killing a chief).
Philip Bowles
PM Bowles
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Alex Rochette wrote:
> On 16 Mar 1998 04:04:36 GMT, rim...@aol.com (RiMiNis) wrote:
>
> >Alex Rochette wrote:
> >> So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
> >>discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
> >>somehow.
> >
Whitecloaks are soldiers; they wouldn't have been taught to fight witrh
knives. I don't know when Farstrider was meant to be around (is it in
the Glossary?) but he would have known how to fight with swords as well
(otherwise he'd have been daft to go on dangerous expeditions). He's
probably Thom's long-lost brother or something.
Philip Bowles
Rick Waters
Bill Garrett wrote in message <6ejq0h$8r...@gazette.engr.sgi.com>...
>roc...@magellan.umontreal.ca (Alex Rochette) writes:
>}
>} So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
>} discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
>} somehow.
>
>he had a bad chest wound and was being watched over by a man who
>waited to see him die.
Like death ever stopped anyone in this series.
--
Rick Waters
rwa...@erols.com
Dave Rothgery
Rick Waters wrote in message <6ekb6t$qo7$1...@winter.news.erols.com>...
>Like death ever stopped anyone in this series.
obVious: What about Asmodean?
--
Dave Rothgery WPI Computer Science '98
dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth/
JCiarro866
>PM Bowles wrote:
No, actually it was not speculation on Bair's part. And I quote:
" ...It is a thing wild young men do, and Maidens with less sense than goats.
Those who returned said he was killed by a man though. They said Janduin
claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the
man ran him through."
ref: tSR, ch. He Who Comes With the Dawn (34), p. 564 (pb)
JC
KHolven
>>
>> PM Bowles wrote in message ...
>> >On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Alex Rochette wrote:
>>
>> {snip}
>> >>...also those Aiel
>> >> channelers who went to die in the Blight (I'm not sure if that's
>> >> something Rand's biological dad did as well...?)
>> >
>> >Janduin, Rand's father, was killed during the Aiel War, I believe; he
>> >was the leader and uniter of the clans and could not channel.
>> >
>> >Philip Bowles
>>
>>
>> Actually, Janduin was so stricken with Shaiel's death that he went north
>> with the young men to fight Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Blight. He was
>> killed by a man with a face like Shaiel's...who must have been Luc. This
>is
>> related in TSR, Chapter 34 "He Who Comes With the Dawn", as told to Rand by
>> Bair. ( pg. 564 pb). And he was actually killed by this man according to
>> the young men, he refused to raise his spear because the man had Shaiel's
>> face.
>
>All of which must simply be speculation (on Bair's part), as Janduin
>didn't survive to tell of his experiences and none of the Aiel who go to
>the Blight come back; we do know that Luc has met Aiel before, but he
>made no reference to a particular one (suggesting that he didn't know
>who Janduin was; he'd certainly have boasted about killing a chief).
>
>Philip Bowles
If you'd check the page cited, you'd see that it's NOT speculation. How could
Bair speculate that Janduin was killed by a man with Shaiel's face, who he
would not raise spear against? That's not speculation, that's imagination. And
she saiys, on page 564 paperback, "Those who returned said he was killed by a
man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he
would not raise his spear when the man ran him through."
So, now THIS is speculation: he must not have died immediately. I doubt the
Aiel he was with wouldn't have made a move while he was being run through, so
he must have faced Luc alone, been stabbed, and left for dead when his comrades
found him and he told them of the man who killed him. But there were Aiel alive
to bring back the story. Case closed.
Keith
KHolven
<snip>
>But you don't think he would fit in at all as the Old Man on the
>Barrel?
>He can't remember parts of his past (ACoS: 17: The Triumph of Logic,
>318):
>"His head felt... peculiar... sometimes. Most often, when he thought
>of what he could not remember."
Okay, that might be..
>He used to be a fighter of some kind, and he's still proficient with
>knives (ACoS: 17: The Triumph
>of Logic, 319):
>"His hands no longer possessed the strength or flexibility for
>swordwork, but the two long knives he
>had carried for well over thirty years had surprised more than one
>swordsman."
Ah, this is your mistake in logic. True, Niall's hands were worn and old, but i
believe he still wore a sword, if not used one. He lived so long and had such
strength to remain Lord Captain Commander... I wouldn't be at all surprised if
he still could wield his sword. The old man on the barrel, he knows he's had
the knives and used them for over thirty years.. the Whitecloaks' weapons of
choice seem to be swords and lances. If he was Niall, he'd have a sword and
remember using it.. this fellow can't remember things. He knows he's had the
knives over 30 years, and used them.. yes, he may be brainwashed, but i highly
doubt he died and was resurrected. That whole concept is wearing thin, with at
least two, possibly 3 or 4 Forsaken being raised.
>I know this could be Farstrider, but it seems like it could apply to a
>befuddled and ressurected Niall who dosen't have to be a Whitecloak
>to be an unwitting tool for the DO. Of course I just shafted myself
>by saying this cause I said he would have reasons to accept being
>brought back...but maybe he wasn't given a choice and was just
>brainwashed??
Farstrider is far more likely. In fact, i'd say 100% more likely than Niall.
There's nothing to indicate this guy died and was brought back; he has trouble
remembering his life, but knows he has a mission and such. And IF, by some
LUDICROUS chance, this fellow WAS Pedron Niall, used as a tool of the DO, WHY
would he be set to spy on Darkfriends, by all appearances against them? Sure
the DO throws his pawns against each other, but Carridin is following
Ba'alzamon's instructions still.. aw hell, there could be a million reasons why
the DO could be pulling the old man's strings, even if he is Jain Farstrider,
but not one reason will make it logical for the guy to be Niall. I'm sure it's
been covered in the FAQ, but it makes a whole lot more sense for it to be
Farstrider. He was mentioned so much in so many books, it went beyond
establishing culture and history. In a modern series of books, people wouldn't
constantly be reading stories of Robin Hood or King Arthur, unless there was
some connection to the story. Anyways, that's enough for now.
Keith
Alex Rochette
On 16 Mar 1998 18:11:29 GMT, wf...@concentric.net.REMOVE (Bill Garrett)
wrote:
>roc...@magellan.umontreal.ca (Alex Rochette) writes:
>}
>} So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
>} discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
>} somehow.
>
>How do you propose for him to have escaped death? Last we saw him,
>he had a bad chest wound and was being watched over by a man who
>waited to see him die.
>
I never said he escaped death, I just said there might be a chance
that he would come back (thanks to the DO probably) since, I felt
that his death was so unexpected or rather, I felt that there was a
feeling of somthing unfinished on Niall's part...this man who was so
close to death anyways, was holding on too fiercely to just die in
such a plain fashion. I can admit I was wrong, but I just felt that
someone who LOOKED like he could die at any moment because he was so
frail, would possibly prove to be one of the toughest, and would hold
on amongst the longest in this story. (I couldn't help but be
reminded of Raistlin from the Dragonlance Chronicles and other similar
type characters...he was a memorable character even if the series
maybe wasn't so amazing) Is there no one who feels that his death
seemed kinda early? no one at all?
Robert W. Parker
On 17 Mar 1998 00:58:36 GMT, kho...@aol.com (KHolven) wrote:
>>>
>>> PM Bowles wrote in message ...
>>> >On Sun, 15 Mar 1998, Alex Rochette wrote:
>>>
>>> {snip}
<SNIP>
>So, now THIS is speculation: he must not have died immediately. I doubt the
>Aiel he was with wouldn't have made a move while he was being run through, so
>he must have faced Luc alone, been stabbed, and left for dead when his comrades
>found him and he told them of the man who killed him. But there were Aiel alive
>to bring back the story. Case closed.
^^^^^^^^
HA!!
Shows what you know.
Very few topics ever die on this NG. Give it a couple of months and
someone will be talking about a topic again. Some topics that will
never die are gerbils, gun control, abortion, and Mormons. Most of the
arguments about tWoT will be put to sleep when the series is done, but
RJ has said he will leave a couple of loose threads.
--
Robert Parker
kate brown
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:07:32 GMT, roc...@magellan.umontreal.ca (Alex
Rochette) wrote:
<snip is Pedron Niall still alive?>
>But you don't think he would fit in at all as the Old Man on the
>Barrel?
>He can't remember parts of his past (ACoS: 17: The Triumph of Logic,
>318):
>"His head felt... peculiar... sometimes. Most often, when he thought
>of what he could not remember."
>He used to be a fighter of some kind, and he's still proficient with
>knives (ACoS: 17: The Triumph
>of Logic, 319):
>"His hands no longer possessed the strength or flexibility for
>swordwork, but the two long knives he
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>had carried for well over thirty years had surprised more than one
>swordsman."
It's Gaidal Cain after all. Where is Birgitte when you need her?
Kate B
take time out to reply
Bill Garrett
roc...@magellan.umontreal.ca (Alex Rochette) writes:
} On 16 Mar 1998 18:11:29 GMT, wf...@concentric.net.REMOVE (Bill Garrett)
} wrote:
} >
} >How do you propose for him to have escaped death? Last we saw him,
} >he had a bad chest wound and was being watched over by a man who
} >waited to see him die.
} >
} I never said he escaped death, I just said there might be a chance
} that he would come back (thanks to the DO probably) since, I felt
} that his death was so unexpected or rather, I felt that there was a
} feeling of somthing unfinished on Niall's part...this man who was so
} close to death anyways, was holding on too fiercely to just die in
} such a plain fashion.
Why would the DO put Niall's soul into a new body? That honor seems
reserved for the DO's most loyal servants, and even for them he does
it rather unceremoniously (and with a twisted sense of humor, a la
Aran'gar). Niall wasn't even a darkfriend, as far as we know.
I think Niall was a bit player, all things considered. His death is
important mostly because of what results from it. Two fanatics take
over the Whitecloaks (Asunawa and Valda, agreeing not to interfere
with each other), and Balwer is freed up to take his head full of
information and contacts and go somewhere else with it. If the
Shadow were involved in this situation, it'd probably have been on
the side of Niall's murderers, as having maniacs in charge of the
Whitecloaks generally serves the Shadow's interests better than
having a leader with some grounding in reality.
R. James Coleman III
Robert W. Parker wrote:
> Most of the
> arguments about tWoT will be put to sleep when the series is done, but
> RJ has said he will leave a couple of loose threads.
I guess that's so you can pull it out, and keep from getting TSS.
--
Writing about music is
Like dancing about architecture.
Robert W. Parker
>Robert W. Parker wrote:
>> Most of the
>> arguments about tWoT will be put to sleep when the series is done, but
>> RJ has said he will leave a couple of loose threads.
>
>I guess that's so you can pull it out, and keep from getting TSS.
*chuckle*
I'm more worried about withdrawal.
--
Robert Parker
R. James Coleman III
Not me. By the time I need to withdraw, I'm already asleep anyway.
Kevin S. Logan
RiMiNis wrote in message <19980316040...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Alex Rochette wrote:
>> So to finally ask my question, I was wondering if anybody
>>discussed the possibility that Niall could have been brought back
>>somehow.
>
>NO, I think that Niall is truly dead and that his death ultimately frees up
a
>way for Galad to become head of the Whitecloaks.(He is after all a great
>military leader coming from both royalty and Tower training)
Tower training? No offense, but I kind of doubt time spent training in the
center of the Children's arch enemies' power would be the high road to
promotion. It seems like a cross-dressing Green Ajah member would get
little less favor from the Whitecloak superiors. I'll admit though that RJ
has some bizarre fetish with placing unlikely characters at the head of
empires and armies, but I think the time spent in Tar Valon is something
Gallad won't use in any speeches. Anyway, I agree. I give it 70/30 Niall's
fertilizer for flowers now.
Too bad really. He actually had some honor (however misguided), and I'd
much rather have seen him come around and join the home team. As wrong as
his methods always were, he deserved his day on the field at TG.
-Kevin Logan
(insert maniacal laughter here)
Karl-Johan Noren
In <6eq7bc$3an$1...@proxye1.elp.rr.com>,
"Kevin S. Logan" <lo...@elp.rr.com> wrote:
[ Galad's rank with the Whitecloaks ]
> Tower training? No offense, but I kind of doubt time spent training in the
> center of the Children's arch enemies' power would be the high road to
> promotion.
Check what Galad tells Elayne and Nynaeve in [An Unexpected
Offer].
Also, Galad is for all purposes royalty, which paves the
way even more.
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Richard M. Boye'
Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
>
> In <6eq7bc$3an$1...@proxye1.elp.rr.com>,
> "Kevin S. Logan" <lo...@elp.rr.com> wrote:
>
> [ Galad's rank with the Whitecloaks ]
> > Tower training? No offense, but I kind of doubt time spent training in the
> > center of the Children's arch enemies' power would be the high road to
> > promotion.
>
> Check what Galad tells Elayne and Nynaeve in [An Unexpected
> Offer].
>
> Also, Galad is for all purposes royalty, which paves the
> way even more.
Which makes you wonder what they were grooming him for.
On the one hand, the WC (the fanatical zealot faction) have this thing
about the "sins of the father passed down to the tenth generation, and
the sins of the mother to the fifth" (1). Well, Tigraine was a Tower
trained witch. Galad is her son. Draw your own conclusions.
So I am skeptical that they were grooming him for leadership on the
Council of the Annointed. I was thinking that they were going to spin
him back into the Andoran Court after brainwashing him where he could be
a powerful check on Andor's pro-Tower leanings. particularly if Niall
was plotting to do away with Gawyn and somehow had ambitions to
manipulate Elayne into appointing him First Prince. This of course would
go very nicely with the fabulous concessions Morgase allowed.(2)
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
* http://www.webspan.net/~waldo
"No more parties at my house. Sure, everyone has a great
time, but no one ever stays to help clean up, or untie me."
1) Or words to that effect.
2) Which was really out of character. And don't give me she was
"brained-fucked by Rahvin," John. There are quotes all over that show
Compulsion can be used without damaging the subject, and words from
Rahvin that said he prefered not to damage those who he thought were
valuable and that he considered Morgase valuable.
3) while we're down here, whatever happened to that treaty, anyway?
Dave Rothgery
Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <3512A1...@webspan.net>...
>Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
>> Also, Galad is for all purposes royalty, which paves the
>> way even more.
>
>Which makes you wonder what they were grooming him for.
>
>On the one hand, the WC (the fanatical zealot faction) have this thing
>about the "sins of the father passed down to the tenth generation, and
>the sins of the mother to the fifth" (1). Well, Tigraine was a Tower
>trained witch. Galad is her son. Draw your own conclusions.
>
>So I am skeptical that they were grooming him for leadership on the
>Council of the Annointed. I was thinking that they were going to spin
>him back into the Andoran Court after brainwashing him where he could be
>a powerful check on Andor's pro-Tower leanings.
Hmm.
If so, it's not working very well. And the Children apparently have no clue
how much Elayne dislikes her half-brother.
Galad doesn't really seem substantially more anti-Tower than he was before
joining the Children. And if he had half a clue how powerful Egwene and
Elayne were, what they were doing for Siuan, and why they were doing it
(instead of someone else), most of his objections would be moot.
Loony Theory: If Galad somehow does end up LCC, perhaps he'd be willing to
strike a deal with the SAS to get the Seanchan out of Amador?
>3) while we're down here, whatever happened to that treaty, anyway?
It's almost certain to be invalidated by circumstances, and is almost
definitely unenforceable.
If Amador is removed from Seanchan control, it will almost certainly be with
the aid of channelers. If the Whitecloaks help, it'll certainly cause them
to rethink a lot of things.
If not, then Suroth and the Seanchan control Amadacia, so the treaty is
invalid, as it was with the Children, not the Seanchan.
Without a living Morgase to back the authenticity of the treaty, no one in
Andor has any reason to believe it. Certainly Queen Elayne would denounce
it as a vile forgery (and if Morgase reappears, Elayne will simply say she
does not acknowledge treaties made at the point of a sword).
As to the actual piece of parchment, I'd guess it's either somewhere in the
Fortress of the Light or (obLoonyTheory2) Balwer has it.
Richard M. Boye'
Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <3512A1...@webspan.net>...
> >Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
> >> Also, Galad is for all purposes royalty, which paves the
> >> way even more.
> >
> >Which makes you wonder what they were grooming him for.
> >
> >On the one hand, the WC (the fanatical zealot faction) have this thing
> >about the "sins of the father passed down to the tenth generation, and
> >the sins of the mother to the fifth" (1). Well, Tigraine was a Tower
> >trained witch. Galad is her son. Draw your own conclusions.
> >
> >So I am skeptical that they were grooming him for leadership on the
> >Council of the Annointed. I was thinking that they were going to spin
> >him back into the Andoran Court after brainwashing him where he could be
> >a powerful check on Andor's pro-Tower leanings.
>
> Hmm.
>
> If so, it's not working very well. And the Children apparently have no clue
> how much Elayne dislikes her half-brother.
Well, subsequent developments have turned just about every nation's
policies (foreign and domestic)and Niall was forced to deal with other
problems. I'm sure the Whitecloaks have had long-standing goals that
would go toward co-opting Andor's Tower leanings. The WC's were in a
fairly expansionist mode under Niall (the Whitecloak War and the Almoth
Campaign for examples). They may have been thinking long term, and
hoping set up a tradition like the Daughter-Heir and the Tower. Perhaps
Galad would marry and send his sons to Amador or something and have
powerful House tied to the Fortress and related to the ruling family.
Plus at the time, Morgase wasn't his prisoner yet. Niall might have been
hoping to influence Morgase by deploying Galad in dangerous areas. Then
Morgase appeared fortuitously on his doorstep. Also, Niall might have
made the mistake of assuming that Elayne was an impressionable young
woman.
Or, Niall might have had an entirely different purpose in mind. With the
right backing, Galad is a fine candidate for the Sun Throne. Put a few
Whitecloak legions behind him to press his claims, and viola, you have a
Fortress-friendly king in Cairhein and then you can squeeze Andor
between them.
> Galad doesn't really seem substantially more anti-Tower than he was before
> joining the Children.
Well, he was never "pro-Tower" either. He was pragmatically noncomttal.
> Loony Theory: If Galad somehow does end up LCC, perhaps he'd be willing to
> strike a deal with the SAS to get the Seanchan out of Amador?
Possible. The fact that he's got it going on for Egwene wouldn't hurt.
> >3) while we're down here, whatever happened to that treaty, anyway?
>
> It's almost certain to be invalidated by circumstances, and is almost
> definitely unenforceable.
I still can't believe Morgase would have allowed her beloved Andor to be
"de jure" conquered to save Tallanvor from being hanged.
Dave Rothgery
Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <351300...@webspan.net>...
>Or, Niall might have had an entirely different purpose in mind. With
>the right backing, Galad is a fine candidate for the Sun Throne. Put
>a few Whitecloak legions behind him to press his claims, and viola,
>you have a Fortress-friendly king in Cairhein and then you can squeeze
>Andor between them.
If he was thinking in that vein, it'd be almost as foolish as thinking
Elayne an impressionable young woman. Morgase was his stepmother, and
Elayne his half-sister, and his family is the only thing that matters more
than honor to Galad (except possibly Egwene, and maybe in the future
LMWBAATFOOHDAAS [was that right?]).
>I still can't believe Morgase would have allowed her beloved Andor to be
>"de jure" conquered to save Tallanvor from being hanged.
I'm quite sure that Morgase did not think this one through. Rand had eleven
clans of Aeil, Tear, and Cairheinin firmly in hand and had just killed
Gaebril/Rahvin and took power in Caemlyn. There's no way in hell the
Children could stand against that, even if Rand didn't use the Power against
them. And Morgase knew most of this.
Which leaves a couple of theories
1. She was still suffering side effects of Rahvin's Compulsion.
2. She was banking on the Children to fail. She knows damn well that the
Aes Sedai _will_ see Elayne on the throne eventually, and they might be able
to make even Rand accept her (Morgase knowing nothing of Rand & Elayne's
relationship, the Asha'man, the Wise Ones, and little of the rebellion among
the AS).
The problem here is that this implies she expected to be killed, and
Tallanvor with her.
Richard M. Boye'
Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <351300...@webspan.net>...
>
> >Or, Niall might have had an entirely different purpose in mind. With
> >the right backing, Galad is a fine candidate for the Sun Throne. Put
> >a few Whitecloak legions behind him to press his claims, and viola,
> >you have a Fortress-friendly king in Cairhein and then you can squeeze
> >Andor between them.
>
> If he was thinking in that vein, it'd be almost as foolish as thinking
> Elayne an impressionable young woman. Morgase was his stepmother, and
> Elayne his half-sister, and his family is the only thing that matters more
> than honor to Galad (except possibly Egwene, and maybe in the future
> LMWBAATFOOHDAAS [was that right?]).
Yes.
Anyway, if they were thinking of putting Galad on the Sun Throne with
the WC legions, then they might be justified in thinking they'd have a
puppet king. Remove their support and he topples.
> >I still can't believe Morgase would have allowed her beloved Andor to be
> >"de jure" conquered to save Tallanvor from being hanged.
>
> I'm quite sure that Morgase did not think this one through.
Well, she did think that she'd have to time weasel Niall out of the
treaty.
> Which leaves a couple of theories
>
> 1. She was still suffering side effects of Rahvin's Compulsion.
I doubt this.
"No breath of air stirred the room's tall windows. Sweat rolled down the
woman's face as she spoke, and beaded on the narrow face of the other
man present...Rahvin handled the flows of Spirit he had woven around the
pair delicately. There was no need to damage valuable
servants...Compulsion had presented no difficulty with the woman. A
scowl twisted on face. It did with some. A few - very few - had a
strength of self so firm that their minds searched, even if unaware for
crevices through which to slide away. It was his bad luck that he still
had some need for one such (Morgase).
tFoH, p.23 hardcover.
In this passage, not only do we see that Rahvin has the skill to weave
Compulsion with out damaging the subject, we see that he prefers not to
damage those who he has a use for, and he notes that does have a use for
Morgase.
And also consider this:
When Moghedien was in Ebou Dar and Compelled the innkeeper, the actual
quote says "with the haste, the woman might lose the whole day (Moghie
had instructed her to sleep), or wake a little slower of wits."
This does seem to be implying that if done properly without haste,
Compulsion would have none but the desired effects. Elayne & Nynaeve
were both subjects of Compulsion. A pretty sizable dosage, in fact. It
would have to have been to nail both of them in nanoseconds. More
importantly, Moghie placed them under a spell that made them babble out
personal information and made them think she was a long lost friend from
the country. Considerably more sophisticated than what she did to that
innkeeper, although in a comparable time period. Do either of them seem
to be adversely affected?
Compulsion, if done skillfully and correctly, need not mess with the
mind of the subject.
> 2. She was banking on the Children to fail. She knows damn well that the
> Aes Sedai _will_ see Elayne on the throne eventually, and they might be able
> to make even Rand accept her (Morgase knowing nothing of Rand & Elayne's
> relationship, the Asha'man, the Wise Ones, and little of the rebellion among
> the AS).
> The problem here is that this implies she expected to be killed, and
> Tallanvor with her.
Morgase seems to have had no fear of dying. (Untill the Questioners had
at her). But she seemed to be motivated with the safety of her entourage
in mind.
Then again, prior to Rhavin even appearing in the storyline, Morgase was
legendary for quick bouts of irrationality.
Steve Moss
>Dave Rothgery wrote:
>>
>> Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <351300...@webspan.net>...
>>
>> >Or, Niall might have had an entirely different purpose in mind. With
>> >the right backing, Galad is a fine candidate for the Sun Throne. Put
>> >a few Whitecloak legions behind him to press his claims, and viola,
>> >you have a Fortress-friendly king in Cairhein and then you can squeeze
>> >Andor between them.
>>
>> If he was thinking in that vein, it'd be almost as foolish as thinking
>> Elayne an impressionable young woman. Morgase was his stepmother, and
>> Elayne his half-sister, and his family is the only thing that matters more
>> than honor to Galad (except possibly Egwene, and maybe in the future
>> LMWBAATFOOHDAAS [was that right?]).
>
>Yes.
>
>Anyway, if they were thinking of putting Galad on the Sun Throne with
>the WC legions, then they might be justified in thinking they'd have a
>puppet king. Remove their support and he topples.
When Rand mentioned Elayne as a candidate for the Cairhien throne, the
noble he spoke to indicated that she might have support within
Cairhein because of her bloodline. And considering normal succession
laws, Galad's claim is stronger than Elayne's. He is the eldest child
of Taringal (spelling ?). If Galad took the Cairhein throne, then I
suspect he would have some native support, mostly among the "rightful
line" of succession crowd, in addition to WCs.
This leads to another thought. If Galad *always* does whats right,
and if the law would make him the *rightful* successor to the Cairhein
throne, might he not oppose Rand setting Elayne on the throne? Sure
he loves his family, but he has indicated a willingness to see them
punished when they have acted "wrongly" in the past.
Richard M. Boye'
Steve Moss wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:46:48 -0500, "Richard M. Boye'"
> <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
>
> >Dave Rothgery wrote:
> >>
> >> Richard M. Boye' wrote in message <351300...@webspan.net>...
> >Yes.
> >
> >Anyway, if they were thinking of putting Galad on the Sun Throne with
> >the WC legions, then they might be justified in thinking they'd have a
> >puppet king. Remove their support and he topples.
>
> When Rand mentioned Elayne as a candidate for the Cairhien throne, the
> noble he spoke to indicated that she might have support within
> Cairhein because of her bloodline. And considering normal succession
> laws, Galad's claim is stronger than Elayne's. He is the eldest child
> of Taringal (spelling ?). If Galad took the Cairhein throne, then I
> suspect he would have some native support, mostly among the "rightful
> line" of succession crowd, in addition to WCs.
But then opposing him, you'd have a bunch of Cairheinin Houses who are
leery at seeing Cairhein become "Amador-East" as well as the Tower going
into heavy manipulation mode, throwing up roadblocks and subterfuge,
because they don't want a Whitecloak powerbase on their doorstep.
> This leads to another thought. If Galad *always* does whats right,
> and if the law would make him the *rightful* successor to the Cairhein
> throne, might he not oppose Rand setting Elayne on the throne?
Well, it's odd. We don't know what sort of succession rules Cairhein
has. Whatever they are, they seem to be very fluid. There are great gaps
in House Damodred's line, for example. Galad might be a perfectly vaible
claimant for the Throne, being Laman's great-nephew, but he may not want
the throne. Besides, we don't even know that Galad knows what Rand's
intentions for Cairhein are.
Kenneth G. Cavness
With much aplomb, in <351300...@webspan.net>,
Richard M. Boye' wa...@webspan.net wrote on Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:51:03 -
0500...
[snip all context, as is Good and Proper]
> right backing, Galad is a fine candidate for the Sun Throne. Put a few
> Whitecloak legions behind him to press his claims, and viola, you have a
> Fortress-friendly king in Cairhein and then you can squeeze Andor
> between them.
I suppose, if RJ's going for the whole Nero imagery...
[snip]
--
Kenneth G. Cavness
http://conan.proxicom.com/~kcavness
KaySJD
>When Rand mentioned Elayne as a candidate for the Cairhien throne, the
>noble he spoke to indicated that she might have support within
>Cairhein because of her bloodline. And considering normal succession
>laws, Galad's claim is stronger than Elayne's. He is the eldest child
>of Taringal (spelling ?). If Galad took the Cairhein throne, then I
>suspect he would have some native support, mostly among the "rightful
>line" of succession crowd, in addition to WCs.
>
>and if the law would make him the *rightful* successor to the Cairhein
>he loves his family, but he has indicated a willingness to see them
>punished when they have acted "wrongly" in the past.
Actually I would say that Moiraine or Caroline Damodred would
be the *rightful* successor. They are the eldest of the house and
Caroline is the acknowledged head of the house. That's why we
see these problems with the rebels outside of the city (ie the scene
that leads to Rand being slashed by Fain). Caroline is perhaps one
of the only Cairhienens with a truly legitimate claim on the throne.
Kay
Richard M. Boye'
Steve Moss wrote:
>
> On 21 Mar 1998 22:14:21 GMT, kay...@aol.com (KaySJD) wrote:
>
> (snip my speculation that Galad might oppose Rand placing Elayne on
> the throne of Cairhein)
>
> >Actually I would say that Moiraine or Caroline Damodred would
> >be the *rightful* successor. They are the eldest of the house and
> >Caroline is the acknowledged head of the house. That's why we
> >see these problems with the rebels outside of the city (ie the scene
> >that leads to Rand being slashed by Fain). Caroline is perhaps one
> >of the only Cairhienens with a truly legitimate claim on the throne.
>
> the "typical" medieval model, and if Taringal (?) was the heir or head
> of the House prior to his death, the Galad would be next in line.
Well, it seems that Andor is unique in its feminine primogenture, but
there are other succession models available, like Malkier which had an
elective monarchy, as does does Tarabon.
Anyway Taringail was the nephew of the last Damodred king. Galad is his
son. Meanwhile, you had Barthanes who was High Seat after House
Damodred's fall from grace, which seems to me to indicate that Taringail
and his issue were a secondary line. Possibly Barthanes was Laman's
brother. Or he may have been his son, and thus Taringail's cousin.
Taringail (and Moiraine) may be the issue of a junior sibling of Laman.
Now that Laman is dead, Caraline is High Seat and that too implies that
she had a superior claim to Taringail's issue. She may be Barthanes'
daughter.
Moiraine was noted to have not been in the line of succession. On first
glance, that may be because she was a half-sister. Or it may be that her
whole immediate collateral family (brothers and sisters) are the
offspring of a junior sibling.
The only point against this is that Taringail was noted to have
ambitions to have his son be King of Cairhein. However, Taringail was
not above assasination, so maybe he was plotting a wholesale
assasination campaign against his family?
> I guess that RJ is going to have to provide more detail before we know
> whether Galad, Elayne, or Caroline have the "right" claim. But I
> believe that any claim Elayne might have would be by definition
> inferior to Galad's. RJ has been very clear that Andor's female
> dominated succession is the exception in Randland, not the rule.
> Regardless whether Cairhein follows a male preffered succession or,
> even if gender neutral, Galad's claim trumps Elayne's. If it follows
> a male preference, then Gawyn would also come before Elayne.
Cairhein seems to have a very fluid monarchy. Whoever sits on the throne
has the best claim it seems. There was no outcry of illegitmacy when
Colavaere sat on the Throne, only that she defied Rand's decree. There
were also no mentions of illegtimacy of false rule while Galldrain
Riatin sat on the throne, either, despite the fact that House Damodred
was not extinct.
Or they may have some sort of vague aristocratic ratification system. If
you are from a decent enough house, regardless of seniority, and can
cobble together enough political and military support, hey, you too can
be king. Witness Colavaere's wooing of minor houses. It's very unstable,
and encourages ruthless scheming and subterfuge, but doesn't that sound
like Cairhein?
In any event, Elayne seems to have an inferior claim to her brothers,
but since she's got Rand's backing...
Steve Moss
On 21 Mar 1998 22:14:21 GMT, kay...@aol.com (KaySJD) wrote:
(snip my speculation that Galad might oppose Rand placing Elayne on
the throne of Cairhein)
>Actually I would say that Moiraine or Caroline Damodred would
>be the *rightful* successor. They are the eldest of the house and
>Caroline is the acknowledged head of the house. That's why we
>see these problems with the rebels outside of the city (ie the scene
>that leads to Rand being slashed by Fain). Caroline is perhaps one
>of the only Cairhienens with a truly legitimate claim on the throne.
Maybe. It depends on how Cairhein succession law work. If it follows
the "typical" medieval model, and if Taringal (?) was the heir or head
of the House prior to his death, the Galad would be next in line.
Much like when Edward III's son, Edward the Black Prince died, his
son, Richard II inherited his claim and took the English throne as an
infant when grandpa Edward III died. Despite having several
surviving, ambitious and very competent uncles (all sons of Edward
III) who were the "eldest" surviving representatives of their House.