I hate Cadsuane
Sara...@my-dejanews.com
First and foremost let me vent. Is it really necessary for RJ to keep adding
new characters in aCoS when there are only supposedly 3 books left? What
purpose does this woman serve other than to grate on my nerves and make me
feel sorry for Merana and Rand. Why did Min ever trust her? Why does her
character just suck? I guess I should remember that Mat was not a real
exciting character in books 1 and 2 and now he's the highlight of the series
so I'll try and keep an open mind. Maybe.
Okay, now my real question...what is the vileness after the Aiel War that
she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any ideas?
SarahKaye
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Sastan
Sara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> First and foremost let me vent. Is it really necessary for RJ to keep adding
> new characters in aCoS when there are only supposedly 3 books left? What
> purpose does this woman serve other than to grate on my nerves and make me
> feel sorry for Merana and Rand. Why did Min ever trust her? Why does her
> character just suck? I guess I should remember that Mat was not a real
> exciting character in books 1 and 2 and now he's the highlight of the series
> so I'll try and keep an open mind. Maybe.
>
> Okay, now my real question...what is the vileness after the Aiel War that
> she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any ideas?
>
Rich Boye'
By all means.
> Is it really necessary for RJ to keep adding
> new characters in aCoS when there are only supposedly 3 books left?
Well, I an rather skeptical that there _are_ only three books left. And
besides, Cadsuane does have a plot purpose.
I suspect her introduction would have sat betterw ith us if we had _one_
itty-bitty reference to her in the past 6 books. When Verin was
recounting the five or six Aes Sedai who could handle the
mega'sa'angreal, _that_ would have been a fine time to mention her.
Oh that's right. We are to believe that every Aes Sedai thought she was
pushing up the daisies.
> What
> purpose does this woman serve other than to grate on my nerves and make me
> feel sorry for Merana and Rand.
She knows something about prolonging the madness. "Her" gentled men live
longer, and she's been at Logain and Taim, both of whom aren't sliding
into insanity _yet_.
Rand might like to know how they've done it.
> Why did Min ever trust her?
She didn't see anything "unfavorable" about her?
>Why does her
> character just suck?
Oh, I rather like her. A while ago, I hypothesized that there must be a
"super-green" somewhere that fufills the role of a general when there is
a war looming and the "Battle-Ajah" assumes a military command
structure.
RJ must have read my mind.
> Okay, now my real question...what is the vileness after the Aiel War that
> she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any ideas?
Ahah!
Behold my master theory covering all the activities around the Aiel War:
Here's what I think happened.
Tamra Ospenya was murdered by Jarna Malari in an effort to learn what
she knew about the Second Coming. Tamra was canny enough to know that
there was some Black Ajah activity afoot and swore Siuan and Moiraine to
secrecy. Jarna learned _something_ about the Second Coming, but
misinterpreted it, and didn't realize that he had just been _born_.
Possibly she construed what she had learned as the Dragon Reborn was
ready announce himself?
Later on, after Jarna herself was Keeper to Serin Vayu (the Grey with
more than a touch of Red in her), she implemented a program of search
and
destroy. Working through Galina, she directed her to use her Red
minions to seek out any man that could channel and gentle him on the
spot. It might have been the work of a selected cadre of Red Sisters who
wouldn't balk at this flagrant violation of Tower law. By doing this,
what Jarna had begun was a process that would circumvent the Tower's
"Dragon-finding Process," which was, namely, to bring all channeling men
to the Tower, where they put him up to sort of inquest as to whether he
is the Dragon Reborn, and then gentle him. One assumes that they _would
not_ have gentled the Dragon Reborn. One of the victims of this 'search
and destroy' mission was Thom's nephew Owyn. Presumably, Owyn is one the
gentled men whose names do not appear in the Tower records, and which is
why it is dangerous to know about them. Elaida's comments seem to
insinuate
that she participated in at least one of those missions.
Meanwhile, all hell breaks loose. Ishamael puts Jarna Malari to death in
a pain amplifier for messing with the program. Not only did she act
independently for having Tamra Ospenya murdered, but she had seriously
damaged the possibility of Ishamael finding the nascent Dragon Reborn
intact
so that he could turn him to the Dark Side of the Force. He was
quite pissed. Or, it could simply be that he had her killed for killing
Tamra, and was unaware of her new initiative. However, The unauthorized
search and destroy mission continues.
Two years later Seirin Vayu dies. Ishamael clamps down on the Great
Council of the Black Ajah to determine that none of them had anything to
do with Seirin's death (one assumes that Ishamael had some plans for
her). It is posible that she gave some sort of tacit approval toward the
'search and destroy sorties' (she was pro-Red) and the Red Ajah had a
hand in killing her to silence her. Alviarin seems to think that the
Reds did have a hand in her death, and disavowed any Black
participation. But it was to no avail.
The secret was out, and the Red Sitters in the Hall were exiled.
Undoubtedly, the rest of the Hall assumed that they had also exiled the
Red Generalisima, because pretty much all the other leaders of Ajahs
were also Sitters. Alas, they exiled Toveine, Tsumata and Llirene, but
left Galina untouched. This is when what "Jarna had begun" ended.
Then came the great number of deaths among the Aes Sedai. This seems to
me that the sisters of the Black Council were trying to limit their
vulnerability by killing those among their individual circles of Black
sisters who knew enough to damage/expose them. The incident of Ishamael
questioning them led them to believe that they had one or several loose
cannons among them, and their secret society was jeopardized. To the
unknowing Aes Sedai community at large, this was seen as a rather
mystifing number of deaths of seemingly random and unrelated Aes Sedai.
Either these high numbers of deaths or the exposed unauthorized
gentlings are what Cadsuane calls the 'vileness.' My bet is on the
gentlings, because Cadsuane's made her mission in life to seek out men
who can channel and help them in some way.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/
"In other words, you want me to put down my sword,
you'll put down your rock, and we'll try to kill
each other like civilized people?"
Kjell Stahl
Rich Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> Sara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
[snip Cadsuane]
> > Okay, now my real question...what is the vileness after the Aiel War that
> > she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any ideas?
>
> Ahah!
>
> Behold my master theory covering all the activities around the Aiel War:
[snip]
I'll say it again, Rich; It's a masterpiece.
*applause*
--
Kjell Stahl
Remove NOSPAM to reply
http://hem2.passagen.se/kstahl/
Karl-Johan Noren
In <35724C...@webspan.net>,
Rich Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> Sara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Is it really necessary for RJ to keep adding
> > new characters in aCoS when there are only supposedly 3 books left?
>
> Well, I an rather skeptical that there _are_ only three books left. And
> besides, Cadsuane does have a plot purpose.
> I suspect her introduction would have sat betterw ith us if we had _one_
> itty-bitty reference to her in the past 6 books. When Verin was
> recounting the five or six Aes Sedai who could handle the
> mega'sa'angreal, _that_ would have been a fine time to mention her.
Or in when some AS speaks of the strength of the supergirls,
say when Moiraine and Siuan speak about them in TGH.
This is one of the things that shows RJ's flaws as a book
plotter.
--
Karl-Johan Norén (Noren with acute e) -- k-j-...@dsv.su.se
http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
John S. Novak
On 02 Jun 1998 18:18:55 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>Or in when some AS speaks of the strength of the supergirls,
>say when Moiraine and Siuan speak about them in TGH.
>This is one of the things that shows RJ's flaws as a book
>plotter.
Oh, get off it.
Everyone thought she was dead. Really. EVERYone thought she was
dead. There's really not much reason for anyone to be throwing
gratuitous references to Cadsuane around. Had Cadsuane been
mentioned, we'd be getting the opposite criticism-- "Jordan is so
transparent, every off-hand reference is a sign of something that will
be mentioned later!"
Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
Fuckin' deal with it.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
The Humblest Man on the Net
Daniel Reid, Osmosisch
Kjell Stahl <kst...@NOSPAMswipnet.se> schreef in artikel
<MPG.fdc9f229...@nntpserver.swip.net>...| [snip Cadsuane]
|
| > > Okay, now my real question...what is the vileness after the Aiel War
that
| > > she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any
ideas?
| >
| > Ahah!
| >
| > Behold my master theory covering all the activities around the Aiel War:
|
|
| I'll say it again, Rich; It's a masterpiece.
|
| *applause*
...and so it is.
One thing kept nagging me though : where the /he**/ did you get all this
info ?
I mean, I recognised maybe half those names. Am I missing something ? Should
I be writing down every name mentioned in passing ?
I enjoy the series as much as the next guy (m/f) but this is just
incredible..
--
{ Daniel Reid, Osmosisch on weird internet shtuff }
(| using lame sigs since 1996 |)
-:[ Raining death on proportional fonts ]:-
(| Proud owner of a bad web page : www1.tip.nl/~t552478 |)
{ Ceterum censeo Microsoft delendam esse }
Rich Boye'
Daniel Reid, Osmosisch wrote:
>
> Kjell Stahl <kst...@NOSPAMswipnet.se> schreef in artikel
> <MPG.fdc9f229...@nntpserver.swip.net>...
> | Rich Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote:
> | > Sara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> |
> | [snip Cadsuane]
> |
> | > > she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any ideas?
> | >
> | > Ahah!
> | >
> | > Behold my master theory covering all the activities around the Aiel War:
> |
> |
> | I'll say it again, Rich; It's a masterpiece.
> |
> | *applause*
>
> ...and so it is.
>
> One thing kept nagging me though : where the /he**/ did you get all this
> info ?
Oh, here and there, and by paying attention to the POV's from the Aes
Sedai characters.
> I mean, I recognised maybe half those names. Am I missing something ? Should
> I be writing down every name mentioned in passing ?
Most of that information was revealed in CoS, actually.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <slrn6n90e...@viking.cris.com>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@viking.cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
> >Or in when some AS speaks of the strength of the supergirls,
> >say when Moiraine and Siuan speak about them in TGH.
> >This is one of the things that shows RJ's flaws as a book
> >plotter.
>
> Oh, get off it.
> Everyone thought she was dead. Really. EVERYone thought she was
> dead. There's really not much reason for anyone to be throwing
> gratuitous references to Cadsuane around. Had Cadsuane been
> mentioned, we'd be getting the opposite criticism-- "Jordan is so
> transparent, every off-hand reference is a sign of something that will
> be mentioned later!"
I think you're wrong here. There's no _need_ for this to be
some sort of gratutious reference: there are places in the
books where a reference to Cadsuane (like the one outlined
above) would not only be possible but fit in very well with
the narrative.
> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
Surprise is not a factor of introducing totally new concepts
in the seventh book. It's utilising previously introduced
concepts in new ways.
At least in good literature.
Michael Martin
--
Michael Martin
<michael...@daytonoh.ncr.com>
The views represented here are not those of NCR Corporation.
Heck, I'm not even sure they're _mine_.
John S. Novak <J...@viking.cris.com> wrote in article
<slrn6n90e...@viking.cris.com>...
> On 02 Jun 1998 18:18:55 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
wrote:
>
> >Or in when some AS speaks of the strength of the supergirls,
> >say when Moiraine and Siuan speak about them in TGH.
>
> >This is one of the things that shows RJ's flaws as a book
> >plotter.
>
> Oh, get off it.
>
> Everyone thought she was dead. Really. EVERYone thought she was
> dead. There's really not much reason for anyone to be throwing
> gratuitous references to Cadsuane around. Had Cadsuane been
> mentioned, we'd be getting the opposite criticism-- "Jordan is so
> transparent, every off-hand reference is a sign of something that will
> be mentioned later!"
>
> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
>
> Fuckin' deal with it.
No, no and no. Much of the early books--especially a lot in EotW--seem to
be throwaway references, but end up having either major significance or
allude to major plotlines in the series.
A few quick examples:
*When leaving Emond's Field, it's Perrin who asks Lan why it would be
better to hear wolves instead of owls.
*While in Shadar Logoth, Rand dreams of losing a hand (seems to be a
"throwaway dream" resulting from the stories Moiraine told to them)
*Nynaeve's confessed fear of spiders.
Jordan ordinarily does a very good job of foreshadowing major characters or
events--and please note I say "foreshadow," not "telegraph." But with
Cadsuane, it seems he really dropped the ball. There were, as has been
pointed out in the thread, at least two opportune times just to drop her
name in, for consideration. That he didn't went against the grain of
storytelling he had established up to CoS.
And, like the original poster of this thread, I can't stand her. She just
annoys the crap out of me and at very least wish Rand would have sheilded
her if not stilled her.
Dou...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6kt8su$nhr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Sara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> First and foremost let me vent. Is it really necessary for RJ to keep adding
> new characters in aCoS when there are only supposedly 3 books left? What
> purpose does this woman serve other than to grate on my nerves and make me
> character just suck? I guess I should remember that Mat was not a real
> exciting character in books 1 and 2 and now he's the highlight of the series
> so I'll try and keep an open mind. Maybe.
>
> she mentions? I have looked high and low for a clue and have none. Any
ideas?
>
I not only despise Cadsuane, but I now despise just about every women in the
books except Min, Berelain, and LEane ! They have all become insufferable.
Esp the Aes Sedai. In books 1-4 they were this sort of elite Sisterhood, full
of mystery and wisdom. Now they look like a bunch of imbeciles bickering
while the world falls down around their ears.
And Elayne is FAR up on the list of pathetic characters. Rand is begging
her to come and take the throne OF HER HOMELAND before it erupts in civil war
but NO ! She cant even put in a five minute appearance there to show Dylin
and Co that she is still alive and will be back as soon as she fetches the
Bowl of the Winds !
ABSURD !
If Jordan is using his wife or daughters as models as to how women behave,
I feel SOOOOOO sorry for him <VBG>.
As for the Aeil vileness - I thought she was talking about the rapid
murder and deposing of various Amyrilins.
Aaron Conklin
Michael Martin wrote:
> Jordan ordinarily does a very good job of foreshadowing major characters or
> events--and please note I say "foreshadow," not "telegraph." But with
> Cadsuane, it seems he really dropped the ball. There were, as has been
> pointed out in the thread, at least two opportune times just to drop her
> name in, for consideration. That he didn't went against the grain of
> storytelling he had established up to CoS.
>
> And, like the original poster of this thread, I can't stand her. She just
> annoys the crap out of me and at very least wish Rand would have sheilded
> her if not stilled her.
I have to disagree with you on this. Granted, I have not yet found a
single bit of Cadsuane's character, but I think she will be serving
a very IMPORTANT purpose with Rand. With Moiraine's loss, even temporary
as it might be, Rand has had no real limiting factor in his decision
making. Even the WO's can only practice a form of passive resistance.
He has Taim on one side giving him a small army of men who can demolish
a very large army of Aiel, and his pet Aes Sedai on the other forced to
bow down and agree to whatever he wants. Now, finally, we have Cadsuane,
who seems to take her mission in life (at least right now) as more
important than dealing with the tower struggles, from either side. In
truth, I think she is the only Aes Sedai left who is focusing on the
main problem, Rand and the Last Battle. Now, she makes me frustrated
as hell when she adopts that "shut up, child, and listen to me" attitude
which most randland women adobt, especially Aes Sedai, but it is
that very attitude which will teach Rand a lesson, and when he can
harness Cadsuane, really and trully bring her to his service, be
scared, be very scared, because he will be a leader to recon with.
--
Aaron Conklin
Database Integration / Webpage Design
Internet Presentations, Inc.
http://www.ipresent.com
Sara...@my-dejanews.com
Okay, Richard Boye don't let this go to your head but after much rereading
and reconsulting of the chronology of Amyrlins in the way-too-expensive guide
I have decided that you are quite right. I am glad that there are a few peopke
that construct theories that actually have a resemblence of tpyical RJ
plotlines. A sincere thanks. However, I still find Cadsuane tedious and
one-dimensional, but as I said I'm sure she'll gain more dimensions as we
move on.
In article <35724C...@webspan.net>,
John S. Novak
On 03 Jun 1998 15:02:24 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>I think you're wrong here. There's no _need_ for this to be
>some sort of gratutious reference: there are places in the
>books where a reference to Cadsuane (like the one outlined
>above) would not only be possible but fit in very well with
>the narrative.
There are places where mentioning her would not be entirely
inappropriate. But I can't think of very many locations. And none of
those locations, taken in their own context, requires her mention.
>> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
>> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
>Surprise is not a factor of introducing totally new concepts
>in the seventh book. It's utilising previously introduced
>concepts in new ways.
It's not a totally new concept.
It's just a new character.
Try to maintain some sense of perspective.
John S. Novak
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:59:00 -0400, Michael Martin
<michael...@daytonoh.ncr.com> wrote:
>--
>Michael Martin
><michael...@daytonoh.ncr.com>
.Sig at the top.
Interesting.
Please learn to edit and format your posts appropriately. This also
refers to getting rid of text of _mine_ that you don't need.
>> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
>> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
>No, no and no. Much of the early books--especially a lot in EotW--seem to
>be throwaway references, but end up having either major significance or
>allude to major plotlines in the series.
>A few quick examples:
[...]
Yes, I'm aware of all of those.
Those are not what I am talking about. That's why I meantioned the
Rods of Dominion (because I don't buy the idea that they are the Oath
Rods.)
Too, the fact that _some_ things are foreshadowed does not require
that _all_ things be foreshadowed.
Henning Torsteinsen
On Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:59:00 -0400, a hairless ape-descendant,
"Michael Martin" <michael...@daytonoh.ncr.com>, uttered:
<snip>
>> Everyone thought she was dead. Really. EVERYone thought she was
>> dead. There's really not much reason for anyone to be throwing
>> gratuitous references to Cadsuane around. Had Cadsuane been
>> mentioned, we'd be getting the opposite criticism-- "Jordan is so
>> transparent, every off-hand reference is a sign of something that will
>> be mentioned later!"
>>
>> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
>> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
>>
>> Fuckin' deal with it.
>
>No, no and no. Much of the early books--especially a lot in EotW--seem to
>be throwaway references, but end up having either major significance or
>allude to major plotlines in the series.
>
>A few quick examples:
<snip>
>*While in Shadar Logoth, Rand dreams of losing a hand (seems to be a
>"throwaway dream" resulting from the stories Moiraine told to them)
Please tell me in what way this ended up "having either major
significance or allude to major plotlines in the series".
--
Mr Burns
Jeg blir liggende i det våte gresset og se
opp mot himmelen. Jeg er helt klar i hodet.
Av en eller annen grunn er jeg overbevist
om at fra nå av vil alt gå bra.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <slrn6nbu7...@voyager.cris.com>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@voyager.cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
> >I think you're wrong here. There's no _need_ for this to be
> >some sort of gratutious reference: there are places in the
> >books where a reference to Cadsuane (like the one outlined
> >above) would not only be possible but fit in very well with
> >the narrative.
>
> There are places where mentioning her would not be entirely
> inappropriate. But I can't think of very many locations.
One is still sufficient.
> And none of those locations, taken in their own context, requires
> her mention.
Nope. But then, you hardly needed a reference to the
Nine Rods of Dominion in the TEotW Prologue either.
For that matter, Cadsuane did not need to be mentioned
in [ACoS, A Morning of Victory] either. Yet she is.
> >> Bah. Somethings, like the Nine Rods of Dominion, are throwaway
> >> referenecs. Other things, like Cadsuane, are surprises.
> >Surprise is not a factor of introducing totally new concepts in the
> >seventh book. It's utilising previously introduced concepts in new
> >ways.
>
> It's not a totally new concept.
> It's just a new character.
> Try to maintain some sense of perspective.
I'd hardly call Cadsuane "just a new character", given her
importance hinted at, her importance to the plot in ACoS
and her importance in late Tower history.
Compare this to Lord Luc/Isam who was mentioned in TEotW but
turned up first in TSR; Jain Farstrider, also mentioned in
TEotW but turned up in (possibly) in ACoS; the Kin which
turned up in ACoS but had some references and appearances in
LoC.
Simply put, Cadsuane's appearance breaks RJ's normal style
of writing.
Jim Mansfield
In article <errn2bt...@devo.dsv.su.se>,
Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>In <slrn6nbu7...@voyager.cris.com>,
>Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@voyager.cris.com> wrote:
>
>> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
[new character discussion snipped]
>Compare this to Lord Luc/Isam who was mentioned in TEotW but
>turned up first in TSR; Jain Farstrider, also mentioned in
>TEotW but turned up in (possibly) in ACoS; the Kin which
>turned up in ACoS but had some references and appearances in
>LoC.
>
>Simply put, Cadsuane's appearance breaks RJ's normal style
>of writing.
Except for Moridin, or the Watcher, or the Wanderer, or Shaidar Haran ...
How about at a more basic level: I don't remember Couladin being forshadowed.
Nor dozens of other characters who have turned up at times during the
books. In fact, out of the hundreds of names of people who have turned up,
only a small percentage of them *were* foreshadowed.
Perhaps what is bothering you is the way an unforeshadowed character comes
bursting in on the scene with so many other characters knowing about her
and us knowing nothing.
I will agree with all of you that most _major_ characters have been
built up to some degree before they make an impact on the story. Cadusuane
does not follow that rule.
-Jim
--
Jim Mansfield internet: mans...@ibd.nrc.ca
National Research Council of Canada Phone: (204) 984-5191
Institute for Biodiagnostics Fax: (204) 984-5472
http://www.ibd.nrc.ca/~mansfield/
Karl-Johan Noren
In <6l6lgc$2lq$1...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
mans...@ibd.nrc.ca (Jim Mansfield) wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
[ early references to new characters ]
> >Compare this to Lord Luc/Isam who was mentioned in TEotW but turned
> >up first in TSR; Jain Farstrider, also mentioned in TEotW but
> >turned up in (possibly) in ACoS; the Kin which turned up in ACoS
> >but had some references and appearances in LoC.
[ ... ]
> Except for Moridin, or the Watcher, or the Wanderer, or Shaidar Haran ...
Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
Shaidar Haran I grant you, but remember that it hardly
did anything in LoC, and less than Cadsuane in ACoS.
Michelle Haines
On 2 Jun 1998, John S. Novak wrote:
> Everyone thought she was dead. Really. EVERYone thought she was
> dead. There's really not much reason for anyone to be throwing
Thing is, though, if she had a hand in capturing Logaine then obviously
the other sisters involved would have known she was alive, and would have
reported so back to the Tower. I'd by the "EVERYone thought she was
dead." thing a lot better if she also hadn't participated in Logaine's
capture.
Michelle
Flutist
John S. Novak
On 04 Jun 1998 15:26:41 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>> And none of those locations, taken in their own context, requires
>> her mention.
>Nope. But then, you hardly needed a reference to the
>Nine Rods of Dominion in the TEotW Prologue either.
What's your point?
>For that matter, Cadsuane did not need to be mentioned
>in [ACoS, A Morning of Victory] either. Yet she is.
Henh? Cadsuane is not, that I recall, mentioned in that chapter.
But Caraighan is.
>I'd hardly call Cadsuane "just a new character", given her
>importance hinted at, her importance to the plot in ACoS
>and her importance in late Tower history.
Cadsuane is just a character.
She represents new knowledge only in the political or historical
sense.
Slayer is more than that, in that he presents new knowledge of what
can be done and what can exist. An even better choice for you would
have been Moridin.
>Simply put, Cadsuane's appearance breaks RJ's normal style
>of writing.
This does not, of itself, imply a flaw.
Omar Shariff
Rich Boye' wrote:
I was thinking, why wasn't she mentioned when logain was brought to
Andor
Richard K. Bollinger
On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
wrote:
>> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
No, no, NO!
Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
--
Richard K. Bollinger
My karma ran over your dogma.
Steven Odhner
Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
: On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
: >Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
: No, no, NO!
I hope not...
: Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
: one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
I like this one better...
: Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
No, no, NO!
Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
that I will spew forth if asked.
--------------------------------
Talas the Great(ish)
ta...@primenet.com
"This is off the record, right?"
--------------------------------
jmo...@comwerx.net
In article <6ledp9$7...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
> : On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
> : wrote:
> : >> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
> : >Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
> : No, no, NO!
>
> I hope not...
>
> : Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
> : one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
>
> I like this one better...
>
> : Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
>
> No, no, NO!
>
> Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
> that I will spew forth if asked.
>
Michael Martin
John S. Novak <J...@voyager.cris.com> wrote in article
<slrn6nbud...@voyager.cris.com>...
> .Sig at the top.
> Interesting.
>
> Please learn to edit and format your posts appropriately. This also
> refers to getting rid of text of _mine_ that you don't need.
>
Apologies. I'm using my work system, which means using bleeding MS
Internet Explorer to read and post. When I first started reading the
group, our previous software automatically formatted correctly. Bill
Gates' stuff doesn't. Go figure.
As far as the RJ stuff, goes...Karl's first post on June 4 in this thread
is as good a reply as I could have formulated, so I'll leave it there.
Michael Martin
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet
engines."
michael...@daytonoh.ncr.com
Karl-Johan Noren
In <slrn6neoa...@mariner.cris.com>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@mariner.cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
> >> And none of those locations, taken in their own context, requires
> >> her mention.
> >
> >Nope. But then, you hardly needed a reference to the
> >Nine Rods of Dominion in the TEotW Prologue either.
>
> What's your point?
That requirement of that something should be mentioned _just
here_ is not the only critiria about what really gets
mentioned.
> >For that matter, Cadsuane did not need to be mentioned
> >in [ACoS, A Morning of Victory] either. Yet she is.
>
> Henh? Cadsuane is not, that I recall, mentioned in that chapter.
> But Caraighan is.
Upon cross-checking, you're right about this.
> >I'd hardly call Cadsuane "just a new character", given her
> >importance hinted at, her importance to the plot in ACoS
> >and her importance in late Tower history.
>
> Cadsuane is just a character.
> She represents new knowledge only in the political or historical
> sense.
Then why Min's insistence about her? Why her long entry
in the glossary?
I'd say she reaches an all-time high when it comes to
the ratio of information in the glossary compared to
what is mentioned in the books.
> >Simply put, Cadsuane's appearance breaks RJ's normal style
> >of writing.
>
> This does not, of itself, imply a flaw.
Not a large flaw, no, but even a small flaw is still a
flaw. Unless she's a truly new thought-out character, which
makes RJ's claims about how he knew all the major events so
much bullshit.
Henning Torsteinsen
On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, a hairless ape-descendant, Steven
Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>, uttered:
>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>: Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
>No, no, NO!
>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>that I will spew forth if asked.
Please feel free to spew[1] forth.
--
Mr Burns
Jeg blir liggende i det våte gresset og se
opp mot himmelen. Jeg er helt klar i hodet.
Av en eller annen grunn er jeg overbevist
om at fra nå av vil alt gå bra.
[1]Spew sounds alot like the Norwegian word for puke.
pa...@jsucc.jsu.edu
()John S. Novak) wrote:
>
> () Karl-Johan Noren() wrote:
>
> >(Cadsuane popping into existence) shows RJ's flaws as a book
> >plotter.
>
> Oh, get off it.
>
> John S. Novak, III()
What proportion of the serious readers of WOT would be willing
to allow(encourage?) RJ to make changes that would make it better
for future readers? Personally I would not be damaged by any
revision that would be practical for him to make. In point of fact
I would benefit by them.
bill palya
conk...@mindnet.org
> : No, no, NO!
>
> I hope not...
>
> : Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
> : one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
>
> I like this one better...
>
>
> No, no, NO!
>
> Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
> that I will spew forth if asked.
>
Christ/God. It is how the DO knows what's up in the world when Demandred comes
to see him.
2. Moridin = Ishmael: shall I introduce some evidence? Moggy says that she has
to wear red and black in ACoS because it was Moridin's livery. Jeez...who
ELSE's colors are red and black? Mere coincidence? Does RJ do anything by
coincidence?
3. If by the watcher we are referring to the entity observing Sam and
Graendal, hasn't this already been revealed as Shaidar Haran?
4. Old crusty man scoping out Carridin in ACoS has no reason to be Ishy or
the DO. He seems about as pathetic as a regular old mortal to me. I
personally like the idea that he's like Jain Fairstrider or Jeroam or
something. Could any of these guys be Elyas Machera?
That's all.
SarahKaye
ThumBoy666
In article <3578ce94...@news.concentric.net>, r...@cris.comspam (Richard K.
Bollinger) writes:
>On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
>wrote:
>
>>> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
>>Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
>
>No, no, NO!
>
>Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
>one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
>
>Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
>
Uh...some evidence, please? There's plenty of evidence supporting the
theory that Ishmael is reborn as Moridin/the Watcher/the Wanderer, but
there is not one single shred of evidence to support your theory. Well, I
suppose you could point out that Shaidar Haran has been placed in position
above the Forsaken, but so has Moridin. You could read the FAQ for some
complete evidence, or you could just hop on over to my site supporting the
theory at <URL: http://www.jps.net/rnros/ishy.htm>. Until someone has
more than "just a feeling" to indicate that Ishy is Shaidar Haran, I'm sticking
strongly to my theory.
--
Sandy-- http://www.jps.net/rnros/
"Here's my fiddlestick. Here's that shall make you dance!"
Titania
pa...@jsucc.jsu.edu wrote in article <6lht4e$f23$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<SNIP a bit of meaningless argument that I fail to see the point of>
> What proportion of the serious readers of WOT would be willing
> to allow(encourage?) RJ to make changes that would make it better
> for future readers? Personally I would not be damaged by any
> revision that would be practical for him to make. In point of fact
> I would benefit by them.
What, like Feist's rewritten Magician? It's a little early to be saying
things like that. If he was to revise now, I'd be thinking: "Why did he let
that get published in the first place, then, if he thought it still needed
work?"
Titania - what's the point? Correct answer: there isn't one.
Dave Abbott
conk...@mindnet.org wrote in message
>3. If by the watcher we are referring to the entity observing Sam and
>Graendal, hasn't this already been revealed as Shaidar Haran?
Graendal and Sam are watched twice. Once by Shadar and another by and
individual with the Saa in his eyes. This is most likely Moridin since he is
the only other character that has the Saa. Moridin is most likely Ishy
reborn. Read the FAQ for all of the excellent reasons.
John Rowat
Titania <e315...@bohm.anu.edu.au> wrote:
> What, like Feist's rewritten Magician? It's a little early to be saying
> things like that. If he was to revise now, I'd be thinking: "Why did he let
> that get published in the first place, then, if he thought it still needed
> work?"
I think they mean to do the editing bit on things like saidin/saidar
mixups, and the occasional missing word and such... or to add a phrase or
two in confusing bits (not that there are many of those...)
One thing that always confuses me are the references people make in HERE
to foreshadowing of Luc/Isam in tEotW... when is that, anyway? I looked,
but didn't find it, and couldn't be bothered to check every page for
obscure references...
> Titania - what's the point? Correct answer: there isn't one.
"she has no point. She rarely has a point" [1 pt, 3 if you live under a
rock and can provide proof of same]
-John
--
"Looking at the world / Through your innocent eyes
You're seeing the promises / No, they're only lies
And broken dreams"
-Black Sabbath, "Time Machine"
Richard K. Bollinger
On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>: On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
>: wrote:
>: >> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>: >Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
>: No, no, NO!
>I hope not...
>: Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
>: one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
>I like this one better...
>: Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
>No, no, NO!
>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>that I will spew forth if asked.
Oh, please do. This - on the face of it - sounds awfully silly.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:51:11 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>In article <6ledp9$7...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
> Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com> wrote:
[munch]
>> Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>> that I will spew forth if asked.
>1. Yes, please do post the evidence. I happen to agree that Shaidar Haran/DO =
>Christ/God. It is how the DO knows what's up in the world when Demandred comes
>to see him.
IW!BT.
>2. Moridin = Ishmael: shall I introduce some evidence? Moggy says that she has
>to wear red and black in ACoS because it was Moridin's livery. Jeez...who
>ELSE's colors are red and black? Mere coincidence? Does RJ do anything by
>coincidence?
Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
Ishamael's.
>3. If by the watcher we are referring to the entity observing Sam and
>Graendal, hasn't this already been revealed as Shaidar Haran?
No.
>4. Old crusty man scoping out Carridin in ACoS has no reason to be Ishy or
>the DO. He seems about as pathetic as a regular old mortal to me. I
>personally like the idea that he's like Jain Fairstrider or Jeroam or
>something. Could any of these guys be Elyas Machera?
No.
pa...@jsucc.jsu.edu
In article <6lim4a$4ck$1...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>,
John Rowat <jro...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> Titania <e315...@bohm.anu.edu.au> wrote:
> > () If he (were) to revise now, I'd be thinking: "Why did he let
> > that get published in the first place()
>
> I think they mean to do the editing bit on things like saidin/saidar
> mixups, and the occasional missing word and such... or to add a phrase or
> two in confusing bits (not that there are many of those...)
>
> -John
I had intended the insertion of a reference or two to Cadsuane,or other
things similar; something on the order of a few sentences or a few
paragraphs. I think it's easy for us to forget just how big the WOT is
for an author. Try to imagine writing thousands of PAGES that thousands
of people are begging you to make longer and longer, while thousands
of people are analyzing it microscopically bit by bit for the slightest
inconsistency or even nothing more than insufficient warning that a
character was coming. If he were so inclined, I think RJ could have
made up a believable story for OJ and Clinton at the same time.This is
a great work that people will be reading a hundred years from now. I
would tell RJ that I vote that he feel free to make revisions if he
is willing. Think of how much joy he brought you, why not let him
bring even more to future readers. Besides what is adding a reference
to a character that will be appearing.
bill palya
I
Steven Odhner
Henning Torsteinsen <mr.b...@SPAMTRAP.c2i.net> writes:
: On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, a hairless ape-descendant, Steven
: Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>, uttered:
: >Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
: >that I will spew forth if asked.
: Please feel free to spew[1] forth.
I will, thank you.
: [1]Spew sounds alot like the Norwegian word for puke.
Yes, it does. Now be quiet so I can talk.
Okay. <ahem> Shadar Haran Is The Dark One Incarnate,
by Steven Odhner
What do we know about SH? It's a fade, it has spooooky powers,
it's name means "Hand of the Dark"... let's start there. The spooky
powers (most likely TP) could be Ishy reborn or something else. The name
could be a generic "lackey" thing... but here's the evidence:
The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
hair.
When the DO gives our favorite torture happy Forsaken orders to
get info out of that one AS, he tells her to follow SH's orders. This is
not unusual, except for his wording. Basically he said (not quite exact
quote, as I don't have the books, but it's close) WHEN SH SPEAKS, I SPEAK
meaning that she should obey SH as she would obey the DO, but it is
possible he was being more literal.
This explains why SH wasn't around before. As the DO gets closer
to being free, he can affect the world more.
SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
"Hand of the Dark"... how literal is this?
Well, I had more but I forget. The reason I didn't post this until asked
was partly because I know many on this group remember last time I did, and
partly because I keep forgetting to get a hold of LoC for the quote from
my second point. LoC is the one book I don't own. If anyone knows what I
forgot, please tell me. At any rate, this is already more evidence than
the SH=Ishy people can manage. (Though some of the points for both are
the same)
Paul Raj Khangure
In an Age long past, an Age yet to come, Titania wrote:
: things like that. If he was to revise now, I'd be thinking: "Why did he let
: that get published in the first place, then, if he thought it still needed
: work?"
: Titania - what's the point? Correct answer: there isn't one.
When an author is emerging, they're very much at the mercy of their
editor.
When an author is established, they have a lot more control and leeway.
Personally, I think LoC and ACoS could have done with some (more?) serious
editorial intervention.
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back, and TPoD will be a book to rival
TSR.
Paul "Moridin" Khangure
--
"Just because I wear a handcuff key on a chain around my neck, doesn't mean
I'm perverted."
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Aaron Conklin
Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
> Not a large flaw, no, but even a small flaw is still a
> flaw. Unless she's a truly new thought-out character, which
> makes RJ's claims about how he knew all the major events so
> much bullshit.
Or maybe he didn't want to forshadow anything about Cadsuane, because
it would not further the plot or help the story at all until she needed
to show up?
--
Aaron Conklin
Database Integration / Webpage Design
Internet Presentations, Inc.
http://www.ipresent.com
Aaron Conklin
pa...@jsucc.jsu.edu wrote:
> bring even more to future readers. Besides what is adding a reference
> to a character that will be appearing.
Alot, a whole lot. If you just throw a gratuitous reference into a
story, it seems and feels out of place and calls attention to itself
even more than it would otherwise. It would be tantamount to putting
her in the glossary from the 1st book till she shows up. Also, it can
draw attention away from the points you want to draw the readers
attention to.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <357D8548...@ipresent.com>,
Aaron Conklin <aa...@ipresent.com> wrote:
You both e-mailed and posted this, without including any
notice that you did so. Don't e-mail and post without good
reason, and _never_ without including a note at least in the
mail that you did so.
> Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
> > Not a large flaw, no, but even a small flaw is still a
> > flaw. Unless she's a truly new thought-out character, which
> > makes RJ's claims about how he knew all the major events so
> > much bullshit.
>
> Or maybe he didn't want to forshadow anything about Cadsuane, because
> it would not further the plot or help the story at all until she needed
> to show up?
Because RJ's writing simply doesn't work that way. From the
first day in Emond's Field we have had foreshadowing: Mat
being interested in battles, Moiraine's reference to Egwene
as Amyrlin, Thom's opinion about Padan Fain, Thom's reaction
to Moiraine and her taking away Rand, Mat and Perrin, Gawyn
comparing Rand to the Aiel, Agelmar's reference to Isam etc
etc.
Richard K. Bollinger
On 9 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Henning Torsteinsen <mr.b...@SPAMTRAP.c2i.net> writes:
>: On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, a hairless ape-descendant, Steven
>: Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>, uttered:
>: >Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>: >that I will spew forth if asked.
[munch]
> What do we know about SH? It's a fade, it has spooooky powers,
>it's name means "Hand of the Dark"... let's start there. The spooky
>powers (most likely TP) could be Ishy reborn or something else. The name
>could be a generic "lackey" thing... but here's the evidence:
> The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
>way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
>anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
>hair.
So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
Moridin.
> When the DO gives our favorite torture happy Forsaken orders to
>get info out of that one AS, he tells her to follow SH's orders. This is
>not unusual, except for his wording. Basically he said (not quite exact
>quote, as I don't have the books, but it's close) WHEN SH SPEAKS, I SPEAK
>meaning that she should obey SH as she would obey the DO, but it is
>possible he was being more literal.
"WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
I'm underwhelmed by this arguement.
> This explains why SH wasn't around before. As the DO gets closer
>to being free, he can affect the world more.
Yes. And?
> SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
>giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
>break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
I don't think it is limited in how far it can roam. Only in how long
it can be away from SG.
> "Hand of the Dark"... how literal is this?
"Heart of the Dark"...how literal is that?
>Well, I had more but I forget. The reason I didn't post this until asked
>was partly because I know many on this group remember last time I did, and
>partly because I keep forgetting to get a hold of LoC for the quote from
>my second point. LoC is the one book I don't own. If anyone knows what I
>forgot, please tell me. At any rate, this is already more evidence than
>the SH=Ishy people can manage. (Though some of the points for both are
>the same)
I am not convinced.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:15:19 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>In article <357cc58f...@news.concentric.net>,
> r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:51:11 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>> >2. Moridin = Ishmael: shall I introduce some evidence? Moggy says that she has
>> >to wear red and black in ACoS because it was Moridin's livery. Jeez...who
>> >ELSE's colors are red and black? Mere coincidence? Does RJ do anything by
>> >coincidence?
>> Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
>> Ishamael's.
>This is NOT a new theory.
It dosen't improve with the passage of time.
>I would appreciate evidence. Do you honestly think
>that the terrifying figure that haunted Rand, Mat and Perrin in their dreams
>was his personality?
In the sense that the way he acts is a reflection of his personality,
yes.
>It was an act to serve his purpose. Ishy was formerly
>a philosopher and a good one.
*blink*
So what? Each of the Forsaken has their own agenda. Ishamael is no
exception.
>He wasn't passionate about killing Rand, it
>was a jod that needed to be done. He also wanted to turn him to the DO's
>side.
He never intended to kill Rand. And he can't want both to kill him and
turn him. That doesn't compute.
>If the DO said let the LoC rule Ishy would help - like Moridin in
>Shadar Logoth. At least give me an example of another coincidence of the
>same magnitude that was meaningless. RJ is almost always subtle with clues.
There's subtle, and then there is X-files lunacy. The particular
clothing a character is wearing on a particular day _may_ be symbolic.
Or not.
Dave Abbott
Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
<357cc4bc...@news.concentric.net>...
>On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>>: On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
>>: wrote:
>>: >> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
>>: >Moridin == the Watcher == the Wanderer ~= Ishamael.
>>: No, no, NO!
>
>>I hope not...
>
>>: Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer = some new character that _no
>>: one_ seems to know about (although Ishamael probably knows).
>
>>I like this one better...
>
>>: Shaidar Haran == Ishamael reborn
>
>>No, no, NO!
>
>>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>>that I will spew forth if asked.
>
>Oh, please do. This - on the face of it - sounds awfully silly.
>
>--
>Richard K. Bollinger
>
>My karma ran over your dogma.
>
Ok, this stuff is from the FAQ, but here it is again... Why Moridin, Ishy,
Watcher, Wanderer are all same person.
1. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer, Ishy all use the true power. They are also
the ONLY characters we have seen use the true power. The use of true power
is extremely rare. All four (or one if you beleive the theory) can also
channel Saidin, but choose not to.
2. Moridin, Watcher, Ishy all have extensive knowledge of AoL technology.
3. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer Ishy all KNOW the Forsaken very well. Not know
of them mind you, know them personaly. Moridin knows Moghedien, Watcher
knows Graendal and Sam, Wanderer knows Sam, Ishy knew all of them.
4. The Watcher had no fear of interfering with TWO Forsaken if they got into
a fight, very few have this kind of power.. Ishy for example.
5. Moridin and the Wanderer are described as being the same age.
6. Watcher and Ishamael both have extensive knowledge of AoL uses of the one
power.
7. Ishy and Wanderer both dislike Rand. Also both keep him alive for now.
Ishy did not try to kill Rand at first.. he tried to subvert him.
8. Ishy, Wanderer, Watcher, Moridin all serve the Dark One. They follow his
goals of Chaos and keepin' Rand alive.
9. Robert Jordan said we had seen the Wanderer earlier in ACoS.
The only other new evil characters were Moridin and the Watcher.
10. The Watcher and Ishy hold Aes Sedai in contempt and do not fear them.
This evidence points to Moridin, the Watcher, and the Wanderer to being the
same person.. Ishy. His past and abilities fits with theirs and it is also a
theory that his flaming eyes came from extended use of the one power. Sort
of what the Saa will eventually develope into.
There are some more points.. read the FAQ.
-Dave
Steven Odhner
Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
: wrote:
: > The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
: >way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
: >anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
: >hair.
: So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
: Moridin.
Not that much. Not anywhere near that much.
: "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
: HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
Thank you for the exact quote!
: I'm underwhelmed by this arguement.
Well, yes, as with my other points it is not much of a
stand-alone. At any rate, I'm sure you see what I mean whether or not you
agree; this could be taken literally.
: > SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
: >giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
: >break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
: I don't think it is limited in how far it can roam. Only in how long
: it can be away from SG.
Either way, the point still stands. SH has clearly stated that he
is bound to SG. This sounds very unusual, unless SH is an avatar of the
DO. Why else would he be bound?
: > "Hand of the Dark"... how literal is this?
: "Heart of the Dark"...how literal is that?
Actually, that was a rhetorical (sp?) question, sort of in
summary, but since you asked: Heart of the dark is not very literal at
all. It is actually a nickname Ishy gained, for reasons that he won't
talk about other than mumbling about sheep.
: I am not convinced.
Do you have a better theory, or are you just undecided?
Richard K. Bollinger
On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:02:44 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
><357cc4bc...@news.concentric.net>...
>>wrote:
>>>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
>>>that I will spew forth if asked.
>>Oh, please do. This - on the face of it - sounds awfully silly.
Please munch .sigs.
>Ok, this stuff is from the FAQ, but here it is again... Why Moridin, Ishy,
>Watcher, Wanderer are all same person.
>1. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer, Ishy all use the true power.
Moridin does, yes. The Watcher does, yes. The Wanderer? I see no
compelling evidence. Ishamael? He can, yes. So can all of the
Forsaken.
>They are also the ONLY characters we have seen use the true power.
The _only_ character we have _seen_ using the True Power is the
Watcher. A good case can be made for Ishamael, although the only times
he _may_ have used it precede the naming of it.
Moridin, of course, is known to have used the True Power (Moghedian's
POV of tha saa let's us know this). A lot. This lends strength to the
theory that Moridin == the Watcher.
>The use of true power
>is extremely rare.
This is debateable. The use of the True Power by _humans_ may be
extremely rare, but way back in the tEotW Lan spoke of powers derived
from the Dark One. He was specifically refering to myrddraal, but I
imagine many Shadow Spawn would qualify to one extent or another as
"channelers" of the True Power.
> All four (or one if you beleive the theory) can also
>channel Saidin, but choose not to.
Nonsense. Ishamael has channeled Saidin on many occasions.
>2. Moridin, Watcher, Ishy all have extensive knowledge of AoL technology.
Yes. Odd, that. Ishamael is, obviously, not surprising in this regard.
Moridin, however...
Just to let you know my thinking on this: I believe that Moridin, the
Watcher, and the Wanderer are all one and the same person. I do not
believe that they (he) are Ishamael recycled. I reserve that honer for
Shaidar Haran.
>3. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer Ishy all KNOW the Forsaken very well. Not know
>of them mind you, know them personaly. Moridin knows Moghedien, Watcher
>knows Graendal and Sam, Wanderer knows Sam, Ishy knew all of them.
Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
>4. The Watcher had no fear of interfering with TWO Forsaken if they got into
>a fight, very few have this kind of power.. Ishy for example.
I don't think so. The Watcher asked itself if it should interfere. The
matter was resolved too quickly for any determination of strength.
Besides, interference by a third party could tilt the balance, or
eliminate the immediate desire for conflict altogether, regardless of
the third parties strength (so long as that strength is not
inconsequential).
You can not conclude anything about the Watchers strength in the One
Power or the True Power from this incident.
>5. Moridin and the Wanderer are described as being the same age.
Cite.
>6. Watcher and Ishamael both have extensive knowledge of AoL uses of the one
>power.
Bunk. The Watcher knows about "fancloth." This is interesting and
bothersome, yes. It is in no way conclusive. All of the Forsaken have
extensive knowledge of AoL uses of the One Power.
>7. Ishy and Wanderer both dislike Rand. Also both keep him alive for now.
>Ishy did not try to kill Rand at first.. he tried to subvert him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lot's of people haven't tried to kill Rand.
Lot's of people don't like Rand.
Lot's of people that don't like Rand have not tried to kill him.
So what?
>8. Ishy, Wanderer, Watcher, Moridin all serve the Dark One.
Ishy? Yes.
The Wanderer? Probably.
The Watcher? Yes.
Moridin? Yes.
Quite a few characters serve the Dark one.
So what?
>They follow his
>goals of Chaos and keepin' Rand alive.
Do they? Do they really?
And this you know how?
I point out that Shaidar Haran was not too sure of Sammael's
commitment to spreading chaos.
And Sammael supposedly serves the DO.
>9. Robert Jordan said we had seen the Wanderer earlier in ACoS.
>The only other new evil characters were Moridin and the Watcher.
Fine. I am of the belief that Moridin = the Watcher = the Wanderer.
>10. The Watcher and Ishy hold Aes Sedai in contempt and do not fear them.
Neither do any of other the Chosen.
So what?
>This evidence points to Moridin, the Watcher, and the Wanderer to being the
>same person..
I agree.
>Ishy.
Not.
>His past and abilities fits with theirs and it is also a
>theory that his flaming eyes came from extended use of the one power.
True Power. Please don't degenerate into X-files type nonsense.
>Sort of what the Saa will eventually develope into.
You have _zero_ evidence for this.
Saa are Saa. Ishamaels flaming eyes and mouth are...what they were.
>There are some more points.. read the FAQ.
I have.
Kurt Montandon
As much as I hate to get involved in an on-topic debate...
Richard K. Bollinger (r...@cris.comspam) wrote:
: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:02:44 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
: >1. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer, Ishy all use the true power.
:
: Moridin does, yes. The Watcher does, yes. The Wanderer? I see no
: compelling evidence.
Rand did not sense the Wanderer using _saidin_, and it is more
likely that he was using the True Power than that he was using
_saidar_. If for no other reason than that we have no dead
female channelers that could be running around in a male body
(I have no faith in the theory that Lanfear is dead, much less
: > All four (or one if you beleive the theory) can also
: >channel Saidin, but choose not to.
:
: Nonsense. Ishamael has channeled Saidin on many occasions.
Ishamael _may_ have channeled nothing but the True Power.
No direct evidence one way or the other.
: Watcher, and the Wanderer are all one and the same person. I do not
: believe that they (he) are Ishamael recycled. I reserve that honer for
: Shaidar Haran.
I'm kind of divided between Shaidar Haran being the DO's avatar (though
_not_ embodiment, mind you), and Ishamael reborn.
: >3. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer Ishy all KNOW the Forsaken very well. Not know
: >of them mind you, know them personaly. Moridin knows Moghedien, Watcher
: >knows Graendal and Sam, Wanderer knows Sam, Ishy knew all of them.
:
: Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
This does not contradict the previous statement.
: >5. Moridin and the Wanderer are described as being the same age.
:
: Cite.
Moridin is described by Moghedien as "not many years past twenty."
(ACOS, pp. 418 hb).
Rand thinks of the Wanderer as "little older than he," (ACOS, pp. 657
hb).
The physical descriptions of the Wanderer and Moridin are almost
identical.
Kurt Montandon
conk...@mindnet.org
In article <357db1bd...@news.concentric.net>,
r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>
> On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:15:19 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>
> >In article <357cc58f...@news.concentric.net>,
> > r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
> >> On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:51:11 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
Oh damn I really just did not feel like arguing this this far, but if you
insist.....
> >> >2. Moridin = Ishmael: shall I introduce some evidence? Moggy says that she has
> >> >to wear red and black in ACoS because it was Moridin's livery. Jeez...who
> >> >ELSE's colors are red and black? Mere coincidence? Does RJ do anything by
> >> >coincidence?
>
> >> Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
> >> Ishamael's.
>
> >This is NOT a new theory.
>
> It dosen't improve with the passage of time.
Okay, my full blown Ishy = Moridin argument:
1. My first point is still the color thing. RJ has given us precious little
information of Moridin and I tend to think that when RJ knows that we are
going to be all crazy trying to figure out who he is, every piece of
info we get is important. Moggy said Moridin used red and black as his livery.
Okay. maybe these are just his favorite colors, but why mention it? Give me
one other meanigless coincidence of this caliber? Anyone? Didn't think so.
2. He is in all likelihood and person from the AoL due to his knowledge
of cour'sourva and vacuoles. There is more to this on the FAQ.
3. Ishy is the only entity we have seen besides Moridin and the wanderer
who channels the TP. (That is also inthe FAQ)
Okay, I'm getting tired of reciting the FAQ. I'm going to assume you've read
it anyway and just overlooked this part. I would appreciate an argument with
substance. For instance: why is Moridin's personality nothing like Ishy's?
SarahKaye
conk...@mindnet.org
In article <6lki6d$1u...@ultra1Aether.noc.fh-aachen.de>,
"Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>
>
> Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
> <357cc4bc...@news.concentric.net>...
> >On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
> >>that I will spew forth if asked.
> >
> >Oh, please do. This - on the face of it - sounds awfully silly.
> >
> >--
> >Richard K. Bollinger
> >
> >My karma ran over your dogma.
> >
> Ok, this stuff is from the FAQ, but here it is again... Why Moridin, Ishy,
> Watcher, Wanderer are all same person.
<snip>
Thank you I have read the FAQ. I believe we were waiting for an Shaidar Haran
= DO incarnate info. I appreciate the effort, but did you still have an
argument for that?
conk...@mindnet.org
In article <357e2d99...@news.concentric.net>,
r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>
>
> >The use of true power
> >is extremely rare.
>
> This is debateable. The use of the True Power by _humans_ may be
> extremely rare, but way back in the tEotW Lan spoke of powers derived
> from the Dark One. He was specifically refering to myrddraal, but I
> imagine many Shadow Spawn would qualify to one extent or another as
> "channelers" of the True Power.
WHAT? Lan said that Mydraal and Shadowspawn could detect the presence of an AS
and that Mydraal can fade into shadows. Nowhere is there any precedence of
shadowspawn channeling, even Shaidar Haran. To paraphrase: please let's not
degenerate this into X-files-like nonsense.
conk...@mindnet.org
In article <6lki6d$1u...@ultra1Aether.noc.fh-aachen.de>,
"Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>
>
> Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
> <357cc4bc...@news.concentric.net>...
> >On 7 Jun 1998 09:06:01 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
> >>: On 04 Jun 1998 20:00:28 +0200, Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se>
> >>: wrote:
> >>: >> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
> >
>
> >>Shadar Haran = DO incarnate. The is a _huge_ amount of evidence for this,
> >>that I will spew forth if asked.
> >
> >Oh, please do. This - on the face of it - sounds awfully silly.
> >
> >--
> >Richard K. Bollinger
> >
> >My karma ran over your dogma.
> >
> Ok, this stuff is from the FAQ, but here it is again... Why Moridin, Ishy,
> Watcher, Wanderer are all same person.
<snip>
Thank you I have read the FAQ. I believe we were waiting for an Shaidar Haran
= DO incarnate info. I appreciate the effort, but did you still have an
argument for that?
SarahKaye
Rajiv Mote
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>
> On 9 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
> >way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
> >anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
> >hair.
>
> So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
> Moridin.
The Dark One still brushes Demandred's head with the stone "teeth" and
Demandred is expected to genuflect in the Dark One's presence. Shaidar
Haran has no such obligations. We haven't seen anyone else take such
liberties.
> "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
> HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
>
> I'm underwhelmed by this arguement.
Nobody else commands this kind of obedience. The other Forsaken
respected Ishamael's power, but still bickered with him (e.g. Lanfear in
Tel'aran'rhiod during _The Great Hunt_?).
> > SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
> >giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
> >break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
>
> I don't think it is limited in how far it can roam. Only in how long
> it can be away from SG.
The problem remains why Shaidar Haran, and nobody else save the Dark
One, is bound to Shayol Ghul.
-- Rajiv
Rajiv Mote
> > r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
> >> Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
> >> Ishamael's.
>
> >This is NOT a new theory.
>
> It dosen't improve with the passage of time.
>
> >I would appreciate evidence. Do you honestly think
> >that the terrifying figure that haunted Rand, Mat and Perrin in their dreams
> >was his personality?
>
> In the sense that the way he acts is a reflection of his personality,
> yes.
Aran'gar acts nothing like what we saw of Balthamel. Attribute it to
different circumstances and different orders. The same can be said
about any perceived personality differences between Moridin and
Ishamael. And the biggest change in circumstance is Rand himself. Rand
is no longer the untrained boy Ishamael terrorized in Tel'aran'rhiod.
Moridin has to adjust his tactics accordingly.
-- Rajiv
Rajiv Mote
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
> This is debateable. The use of the True Power by _humans_ may be
> extremely rare, but way back in the tEotW Lan spoke of powers derived
> from the Dark One. He was specifically refering to myrddraal, but I
> imagine many Shadow Spawn would qualify to one extent or another as
> "channelers" of the True Power.
Though the weaves of the True Power can't be detected by anyone but the
channeler, I find it odd that Aginor -- with knowledge of the True Power
-- couldn't figure out how Myrddraal accomplished their "fading" trick.
Unless non-human use of the True Power is fundamentally different, the
Forsaken should have been able to come to an approximate understanding.
-- Rajiv
Bill Garrett
r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) writes:
}
} Watcher. A good case can be made for Ishamael, although the only times
} he _may_ have used it precede the naming of it.
Why do you doubt that Ishamael has used the True Power? It's pretty
obvious that he used it with Lews Therin in the prologue of TEotW and
in several encounters with Rand. We didn't have a name for it at the
time, but it was hinted explicitly (as well as implicitly) that it
was a different power. In the prologue scene, Ishamael said,
"Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" just before
he temporarily relieved Lews Therin of the taint-induced madness.
In his battle with Rand in TDR, he called out, "I cannot be defeated!
Aid me!" and then opened a new can of whupass. In retrospect, these
clearly point to the TP, in both that it's different from the One
Power and that it can only be used with permission (from the DO).
--
Bill Garrett Lead me not into temptation...
wfg1 @ concentric.net unless you know a shortcut I don't.
Aaron Conklin
Rajiv Mote wrote:
> Aran'gar acts nothing like what we saw of Balthamel. Attribute it to
> different circumstances and different orders. The same can be said
> about any perceived personality differences between Moridin and
> Ishamael. And the biggest change in circumstance is Rand himself. Rand
> is no longer the untrained boy Ishamael terrorized in Tel'aran'rhiod.
> Moridin has to adjust his tactics accordingly.
Not only that, but even if Moridin is Ishy resurected by the DO, it
doesn't mean that he is exactly the same as he was before. The whole
ordeal could have changed him up psychologically, who knows what being
reborn by the DO would do.
Aaron Conklin
Dave Abbott wrote:
> This evidence points to Moridin, the Watcher, and the Wanderer to being the
> theory that his flaming eyes came from extended use of the one power. Sort
> of what the Saa will eventually develope into.
Actually, the theory is that the flaming eyes, like the Saa, come from
extended use of the True Power, or the One Source
The One Power/True Source is the power that turns the wheel of time
the True Power/One Source is the power that comes from the DO.
Will Zuidema
Rajiv Mote <Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> writes:
[snip]
> The problem remains why Shaidar Haran, and nobody else save the Dark
> One, is bound to Shayol Ghul.
Shaidar Haran grows weaker the farther he gets from SG. It does not say that
he cannot leave. This can be interpreted that his additional power from the
Dark One, and his being a "super fade" limits him.
Will
Ash Ragheb
On 9 Jun 1998 05:33:30 GMT, "Titania" <e315...@bohm.anu.edu.au>
wrote:
>
>
>pa...@jsucc.jsu.edu wrote in article <6lht4e$f23$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
><SNIP a bit of meaningless argument that I fail to see the point of>
>
>> What proportion of the serious readers of WOT would be willing
>> to allow(encourage?) RJ to make changes that would make it better
>> for future readers? Personally I would not be damaged by any
>> revision that would be practical for him to make. In point of fact
>> I would benefit by them.
>
>What, like Feist's rewritten Magician? It's a little early to be saying
>things like that. If he was to revise now, I'd be thinking: "Why did he let
>that get published in the first place, then, if he thought it still needed
>work?"
In Feist's case, I think it was more a matter of restoring material
that the editor had cut out the first time round. Magician was
originally submitted as a single manuscript, but the publisher decided
to split it into two books which necessitated some changes, IIRC. I
doubt Feist really had the clout back then to refuse or put up much of
a fight.
Dave Abbott
Excuse me, I was referring to True Power. My hands betrayed me.
-Dave
Dave Abbott
Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>Just to let you know my thinking on this: I believe that Moridin, the
>Watcher, and the Wanderer are all one and the same person. I do not
>believe that they (he) are Ishamael recycled. I reserve that honer for
>Shaidar Haran.
Ok, if you beleive that all three are the same then I will focus this
arguement on the Watcher, since he gives the most clues pointing to Ishy.
First there is the knowledge the Watcher possesses of the inner workings
of the Fosaken. He knows about Nae'blis, he also describes how the Great
Lord likes to play the Forsaken off against each other, he knows the habits
of Graendal and Sam. The Watcher knows what it is like to kneel it the Pit
of Doom and bask in the Great Lords glory. This makes me think that the
Watcher is one of the Forsaken.
Next there is the Watchers knowledge of the AoL. He uses a Fancloth, and
says that over the years he had learned expertise in areas that Sammael and
both scorned and favored. Sam was only alive during the AoL so this points
to more AoL expertise. He also has knowledge of Male/Female linking..
unheard of since the AoL and knowledge of a true circle, also a rare thing
since the AoL. The Watcher also knows AoL technology like the callbox. This
points to the Watcher as being from the AoL.
The Watcher is male. Not only is he called a male in the text, but he
also feels prickling on his skin when Graendal channels.
The Watcher has Saa in his eyes and uses the True Power. According to
Moghedien only 29 others have ever been granted the use of the true power,
so this is a rare thing. Also, she states that the Forsaken knew the risks
of using the true power and that she did not believe there was a will alive
that could resist the urge to channel it once the Saa appeared. This means
that the other Forsaken have used it infrequently or not at all, except
perhaps Ishy. The Watcher uses it for things that Saidin would do, like make
gateways.
So it looks like we have a male Forsaken from the AoL that uses the true
power alot. Aginor and Balthamel are reborn as the 'gars, and we know that
Aran'gar is Halima. Osan'gar MAY be Dashiva. However, if you beleive that
the Watcher, Wanderer, Moridin are all the same, then the physical
description is wrong for Osan'gar.
Be'lal and Rhavin are permanently dead by balefire. Demandred is presently
unaccounted for, but we know that he is obssessed with becoming Nae'blis,
something that the watcher seemed to shrug off.
Demandred also did not have Saa the last we saw of him, and once again he
does not fit the physical description of Moridin and Wanderer. Sam is, of
course, out. Asmodean has died the final death. So who is the watcher? The
only male forsaken left is..... Ishy.
As a last note the Watcher also talks about all of the times he has seen
truth change and changed it himself, this sounds like a possible reference
to Ishy's years of plotting after the breaking, but this is thin.
>Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
If Ishy is reborn in a new body, like the 'gars, then of course she
would not know him
There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin. Since
we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not have
used Saidar. He used the true power.
-Dave "glad to see Ishy back"
Richard K. Bollinger
Yes. Odd, that. The fact that Aginor was not comfortable with these
throwbacks is even more interesting.
Perhaps the Forsaken are not as high and mighty as they think they
are.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:29:41 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>In article <357e2d99...@news.concentric.net>,
> r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>> >The use of true power
>> >is extremely rare.
>> This is debateable. The use of the True Power by _humans_ may be
>> extremely rare, but way back in the tEotW Lan spoke of powers derived
>> from the Dark One. He was specifically refering to myrddraal, but I
>> imagine many Shadow Spawn would qualify to one extent or another as
>> "channelers" of the True Power.
>WHAT? Lan said that Mydraal and Shadowspawn could detect the presence of an AS
>and that Mydraal can fade into shadows. Nowhere is there any precedence of
>shadowspawn channeling, even Shaidar Haran. To paraphrase: please let's not
>degenerate this into X-files-like nonsense.
"Halfmen have powers of a kind, the sort that stem from the Dark One."
-tEotW, A Place of Safety, pg. 109 pb.
"Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haran's
hand, the hand of the Shadow." -aCoS, Spears, pg.636-7 hb.
ObSP: Okay?
Richard K. Bollinger
On 10 Jun 1998 15:18:34 GMT, wf...@concentric.net.REMOVE (Bill Garrett)
wrote:
>r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) writes:
>} The _only_ character we have _seen_ using the True Power is the
>} Watcher. A good case can be made for Ishamael, although the only times
>} he _may_ have used it precede the naming of it.
>Why do you doubt that Ishamael has used the True Power? It's pretty
>obvious that he used it with Lews Therin in the prologue of TEotW and
>in several encounters with Rand. We didn't have a name for it at the
>time, but it was hinted explicitly (as well as implicitly) that it
>was a different power. In the prologue scene, Ishamael said,
>"Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" just before
>he temporarily relieved Lews Therin of the taint-induced madness.
Oops. You are right.
My bad.
>In his battle with Rand in TDR, he called out, "I cannot be defeated!
>Aid me!" and then opened a new can of whupass.
Ummm...Ishamael called for aid. An odd thing to do in the scheme of
the tWoT, given that those that can wield Power beyond the ken of
ordinary mortals do so without calling out to it.
My interpretation of this scene was that Ishamael asked the Dark One
to save him from certain destruction. And the Dark One did.
>In retrospect, these
>clearly point to the TP, in both that it's different from the One
>Power and that it can only be used with permission (from the DO).
This permission bit...I seem to recall discussing this before, but I
don't recall the specifics. Why, exactly, do you believe that
permission must be given for each use of the True Power? Ishamael
didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least) in _Dragonmount._ The
Watcher didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least).
Richard K. Bollinger
On 10 Jun 1998 09:42:07 GMT, ez07...@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Kurt
Montandon) wrote:
>As much as I hate to get involved in an on-topic debate...
Indeed.
>Richard K. Bollinger (r...@cris.comspam) wrote:
>: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:02:44 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>: >1. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer, Ishy all use the true power.
>: Moridin does, yes. The Watcher does, yes. The Wanderer? I see no
>: compelling evidence.
>Rand did not sense the Wanderer using _saidin_, and it is more
>likely that he was using the True Power than that he was using
>_saidar_. If for no other reason than that we have no dead
>female channelers that could be running around in a male body
>(I have no faith in the theory that Lanfear is dead, much less
Balefire is a product of the One Power. The True Power may be capable
of producing similar results, but in no instance has the observed
action been the same. We have Black Flames racing from Shaidar Haran's
palm versus your more garden variety flame racing from the palms of
those channeling the One Power. We have Shaitans Healing versus the
Garden variety. And, most importantly, we have the Dark One hisself
saying "..., YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT
STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME." The DO can't save anyone from Balefire.
Balefire involves screwing about with time. The DO cannot step outside
of time. Channelers of the One Power can. After a fashion.
I simply don't believe that any Channeling of the TP could reproduce
Balefire. I don't believe that that is a power that the Dark One has.
Why else would the Dark One be so interested in asking Demandred if he
would be willing to "UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE...?"
Why else would the Dark One need channelers, if not because they can
do something that he can't?
>: > All four (or one if you beleive the theory) can also
>: >channel Saidin, but choose not to.
>: Nonsense. Ishamael has channeled Saidin on many occasions.
>Ishamael _may_ have channeled nothing but the True Power.
Bunk.
>No direct evidence one way or the other.
Bull.
>: Watcher, and the Wanderer are all one and the same person. I do not
>: believe that they (he) are Ishamael recycled. I reserve that honer for
>: Shaidar Haran.
>I'm kind of divided between Shaidar Haran being the DO's avatar (though
>_not_ embodiment, mind you), and Ishamael reborn.
Well, I vote for Ishamael reborn.
>: >3. Moridin, Watcher, Wanderer Ishy all KNOW the Forsaken very well. Not know
>: >of them mind you, know them personaly. Moridin knows Moghedien, Watcher
>: >knows Graendal and Sam, Wanderer knows Sam, Ishy knew all of them.
>: Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
>This does not contradict the previous statement.
It does in the larger context. The Forsaken have always been capable
of altering their appearances. Given that, and the fact that they are
universally paranoid (a healthy adjustment, given their situations), I
would imagine that they would be fairly good at recognizing each
other, whatever face they were wearing.
>: >5. Moridin and the Wanderer are described as being the same age.
>: Cite.
>Moridin is described by Moghedien as "not many years past twenty."
>(ACOS, pp. 418 hb).
>Rand thinks of the Wanderer as "little older than he," (ACOS, pp. 657
>hb).
>The physical descriptions of the Wanderer and Moridin are almost
>identical.
Okay.
So what? I believe that Moridin == the Wanderer == the Watcher.
I don't believe that Ishamael has been reborn as Moridin.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:26:18 -0500, Rajiv Mote
<Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>> On 9 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
>> wrote:
>> > The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
>> >way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
>> >anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
>> >hair.
>> So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
>> Moridin.
>The Dark One still brushes Demandred's head with the stone "teeth" and
>Demandred is expected to genuflect in the Dark One's presence. Shaidar
>Haran has no such obligations. We haven't seen anyone else take such
>liberties.
"We haven't seen..." And therein lies the problem. Was Ishamael
allowed such liberties?
>> "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
>> HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
>> I'm underwhelmed by this arguement.
>Nobody else commands this kind of obedience. The other Forsaken
>respected Ishamael's power, but still bickered with him (e.g. Lanfear in
>Tel'aran'rhiod during _The Great Hunt_?).
Yes. Exactly.
Reread that passage. And then reread Threads Woven of Shadow. There
are some striking similarities.
>> > SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
>> >giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
>> >break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
>> I don't think it is limited in how far it can roam. Only in how long
>> it can be away from SG.
>The problem remains why Shaidar Haran, and nobody else save the Dark
>One, is bound to Shayol Ghul.
Enh. The Blight is limited. And, by extension, most of the nasties
that exist in it. It would seem that the Shadowspawn that can exist
outside the blight are the exception rather than the rule.
Richard K. Bollinger
On 9 Jun 1998 22:47:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>: wrote:
>: > The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
>: >way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
>: >anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
>: >hair.
>: So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
>: Moridin.
> Not that much. Not anywhere near that much.
Demandred can still move about freely. Shaidar Haran can't. Perhaps
the Dark One likes a leashed dog more than a "Taimed" wolf?
>: "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
>: HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
>Thank you for the exact quote!
You're welcome!
>: I'm underwhelmed by this arguement.
> Well, yes, as with my other points it is not much of a
>stand-alone. At any rate, I'm sure you see what I mean whether or not you
>agree; this could be taken literally.
By definition, it all must be taken literally.
>: > SH has clearly stated that he is bound to SG. This is a dead
>: >giveaway if I've ever heard one. I'm willing to bet that when more seals
>: >break SH will be able to roam further from SG.
>: I don't think it is limited in how far it can roam. Only in how long
>: it can be away from SG.
> Either way, the point still stands. SH has clearly stated that he
>is bound to SG. This sounds very unusual, unless SH is an avatar of the
>DO. Why else would he be bound?
Explain the Blight, then.
>: > "Hand of the Dark"... how literal is this?
>: "Heart of the Dark"...how literal is that?
> Actually, that was a rhetorical (sp?) question, sort of in
>summary, but since you asked: Heart of the dark is not very literal at
>all. It is actually a nickname Ishy gained, for reasons that he won't
>talk about other than mumbling about sheep.
Weak. Very weak.
>: I am not convinced.
>Do you have a better theory, or are you just undecided?
Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran. Moridin/the Watcher/the
Wanderer is some new annoyance.
Dave Abbott
>>Richard K. Bollinger (r...@cris.comspam) wrote:
>Balefire is a product of the One Power. The True Power may be capable
>of producing similar results, but in no instance has the observed
>action been the same.
Huh? The Wanderer shoots balfire from his hand, described exactly as all
other balefire has been, and he is not using Saiden.. he is using the true
power.
>We have Black Flames racing from Shaidar Haran's
>palm versus your more garden variety flame racing from the palms of
>those channeling the One Power.
Who ever said Shadar uses the true power? It could be his own ability, like
the normal fades shadow travel. Which the Forsaken, who understand the true
power, do not understand. It could be the true power but there is no
evidence. Nor does the fact that we have not seen someone use Saidar or
Saiden to produce black flames mean that they can't be used to produce
black flames.
> We have Shaitans Healing versus the
>Garden variety. And, most importantly, we have the Dark One hisself
>saying "..., YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT
>STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME." The DO can't save anyone from Balefire.
Channelers of Saidar and Saiden can't save people from balefire either, yet
they can produce it.
>Balefire involves screwing about with time. The DO cannot step outside
>of time. Channelers of the One Power can. After a fashion.
>
Huh? Balefire burns threads from the pattern, it does not involve stepping
out of time.
>I simply don't believe that any Channeling of the TP could reproduce
>Balefire. I don't believe that that is a power that the Dark One has.
>
See the Wanderer's production of balefire with the true power.
>Why else would the Dark One be so interested in asking Demandred if he
>would be willing to "UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE...?"
>
Because Demandred wants a world left to rule, that is why both sides stopped
using it in the war of power. The dark one knows that the Forsaken quit
using balefire back then and are probably reluctant to use it now.
>Why else would the Dark One need channelers, if not because they can
>do something that he can't?
>
Hmm.. like touch the world directly?
-Dave
Dave Abbott
Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>: "Heart of the Dark"...how literal is that?
Yes, but nowwhere does it say the dark one gave Ishy that name, while we
know the dark one bestowed the title "Hand of the Dark" on Shadar.
>Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran. Moridin/the Watcher/the
>Wanderer is some new annoyance.
The Watcher can hardly be some NEW person. It is obvious, see my post
dealing specificly with the Watcher, that he has extensive knowledge of
things long forgotten by anybody in this age and long experience dealing
first hand with the Forsaken. He could be some unknown being from the AoL
that we have never had any clues to, but this is very unlikely, only other
major no clues/warning character is Cadsuane and Jordan also gave us lots of
mysterious clues about Moridin/Watcher/Wanderer.
-Dave
Aaron Conklin
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
> Enh. The Blight is limited. And, by extension, most of the nasties
> that exist in it. It would seem that the Shadowspawn that can exist
> outside the blight are the exception rather than the rule.
The blight is only limited in the sense that it can only be where it is
and where it grows into, but it DOES grow. It has been beaten back a bit
but it has been steadily growing and will probably still grow until the
DO's prison is fully sealed once again. Many of the creatures in the
Blight, it seems to me, are creatures mutated because of the blight, or
have adapted to live in the blight. They are as much bound to the
blight as we are bound to an oxygen atmosphere. Not to a specific area,
but to a specific ecosystem. In fact, the only 2 creatures who I can
remember it being specifically mentioned that they either a) could not
stray too far from Shayol Ghul or b) needing to return to it or dying
are the forge operators at Thrakandar and Shadar Haran.
Rajiv Mote
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:26:18 -0500, Rajiv Mote
> <Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>
> >The Dark One still brushes Demandred's head with the stone "teeth" and
> >Demandred is expected to genuflect in the Dark One's presence. Shaidar
> >Haran has no such obligations. We haven't seen anyone else take such
> >liberties.
>
> "We haven't seen..." And therein lies the problem. Was Ishamael
> allowed such liberties?
If he was, none of the other Forsaken were aware of it or (1) Demandred
wouldn't have been so surprised to see the liberties given to Shaidar
Haran and (2) they would have suspected a Nae'blis had been selected.
> >The problem remains why Shaidar Haran, and nobody else save the Dark
> >One, is bound to Shayol Ghul.
>
> Enh. The Blight is limited. And, by extension, most of the nasties
> that exist in it. It would seem that the Shadowspawn that can exist
> outside the blight are the exception rather than the rule.
But the Blight isn't precisely limited -- we know the Blightborder
expands periodically. And assuming for a moment that Shadowspawn =are=
bound to a region surrounding Shayol Ghul, why would the Dark One
reincarnate his (arguably) most successful servant in a tethered body?
And why not the same for Aginor and Balthamel?
Whatever the case, we haven't seen any indication that Myrddraal (or
Trollocs, Dragkhar, Darkhounds or Gholam) are bound in any way to the
Blight or Shayol Ghul. Both current events and history (Trolloc Wars)
indicate that they can exist for long periods away from Shayol Ghul.
The only critters we haven't seen outside the Blight are the poisonous
vegetation, evil trees, spider-beasties that live among them, lake
monsters, jumara and what-jumara-fear. This is most likely a simple
matter of comfortable habitat.
Shaidar Haran is something altogether different. If anyone is a
candidate for being "some new annoyance" as you put it, it's him.
-- Rajiv
Rajiv Mote
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>
> Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran. Moridin/the Watcher/the
> Wanderer is some new annoyance.
When Aginor and Balthamel were reincarnated, the Shadow had to use a
pair of existing bodies from the Borderlands. The body of a giant
Myrddraal is, as far as we know, unique to Shaidar Haran. Why and how
was Ishamael reincarnated in such an... anomolous body?
-- Rajiv
John D. Thomas
Dave Abbott wrote:
>
> >>Richard K. Bollinger (r...@cris.comspam) wrote:
>
> >Balefire is a product of the One Power. The True Power may be capable
> >of producing similar results, but in no instance has the observed
> >action been the same.
>
> Huh? The Wanderer shoots balfire from his hand, described exactly as all
> other balefire has been, and he is not using Saiden.. he is using the true
> power.
Couldn't he have been using inverted weaves such as we see Mesaana using
in the prologue of CoS? Alviarin says that as far as she knew the
woman might as well not be even been able to channel at all. But she
saw the produced effects... the mask of mirrors, the gateway, etc.
I'm surprised no one has considered weave invertion in the case of the
Wanderer/Watcher/Morridin.
I think that they are all the same and that they are all Ishy reborn.
> -Dave
Bill Garrett
r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) writes:
}
} >In his battle with Rand in TDR, he called out, "I cannot be defeated!
} >Aid me!" and then opened a new can of whupass.
}
} Ummm...Ishamael called for aid. An odd thing to do in the scheme of
} the tWoT, given that those that can wield Power beyond the ken of
} ordinary mortals do so without calling out to it.
}
} My interpretation of this scene was that Ishamael asked the Dark One
} to save him from certain destruction. And the Dark One did.
Yes, but _how_ did the Dark One help him?
The most likely answer is that the DO allowed him to use TP.
} This permission bit...I seem to recall discussing this before, but I
} don't recall the specifics. Why, exactly, do you believe that
} permission must be given for each use of the True Power? Ishamael
} didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least) in _Dragonmount._ The
} Watcher didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least).
It's possible that they had preapproval at those times or that they
made some form of request not obvious to an observer.
Henning Torsteinsen
On 11 Jun 1998 03:59:20 EDT, a hairless ape-descendant,
r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger), uttered:
>Why else would the Dark One be so interested in asking Demandred if he
>would be willing to "UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE...?"
What I would like to know is:
Who was Demandred supposed to unleash BF on?
--
Mr Burns
Jeg blir liggende i det våte gresset og se
opp mot himmelen. Jeg er helt klar i hodet.
Av en eller annen grunn er jeg overbevist
om at fra nå av vil alt gå bra.
Steven Odhner
Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
: wrote:
: >Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
: >: On 9 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
: >: wrote:
: >: > The DO likes him. The teeth of the DO (the stalagtites on the
: >: >way to the Pit of Doom) give SH a *Two Foot* clearance, when the best
: >: >anyone else gets it walking room, with the teeth brushing against thier
: >: >hair.
: >: So what? The DO "likes" Demandred, Lanfear, and, in all likelyhood,
: >: Moridin.
: > Not that much. Not anywhere near that much.
: Demandred can still move about freely. Shaidar Haran can't. Perhaps
: the Dark One likes a leashed dog more than a "Taimed" wolf?
Is that a Taim joke? Anyway, the above only matters if the DO is
the one binding SH to SG. If SH is an Avatar, then the binding would be
because of the DO being bound there by the seals.
: >: "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
: >: HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
<snip "This means something" "No, it doesn't.">
I still say this quote is, if not proof, a hint.
: > Either way, the point still stands. SH has clearly stated that he
: >is bound to SG. This sounds very unusual, unless SH is an avatar of the
: >DO. Why else would he be bound?
: Explain the Blight, then.
Are normal Fades stuck in the Blight? No. Trollocs? No.
Draghar? (Wow, I spelled that wrong!) No. Darkhounds? No. Why SH? The
things that stay in the Blight most likely stay there because of
environmental reasons. Shaidar Haran, however, is bound to SG because he
is an Avatar of the Dark One. IMHO, of course.
: >Do you have a better theory, or are you just undecided?
: Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran.
I can't think of _any_ proof for this, while the Shaidar Haran =
Avatar thing has some hints and evidence. Admittedly not as much as I
thought there was before I tried to write it down, but it's there. Why do
you think Shaidar Haran is Ishy?
--------------------------------
Talas the Great(ish)
ta...@primenet.com
"This is off the record, right?"
--------------------------------
Asdarthe
Henning Torsteinsen wrote:
>On 11 Jun 1998 03:59:20 EDT, a hairless ape-descendant,
>r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger), uttered:
>
>>Why else would the Dark One be so interested in asking Demandred if he
>>would be willing to "UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE...?"
>
>What I would like to know is:
>
>Who was Demandred supposed to unleash BF on?
>
>
The DO could have been speaking non-literally, merely wishing to see how far
Demandred would go to serve him. Would he risk messing up the Pattern a lot
for his master.
(Yeah, like the DO really cares about messing with the Pattern, but hey)
-----
Chris Ostermann
"You're all unfit to judge me, yet you'll judge me if you can
And if you think I'm evil, clearly you don't understand."
---"Falconsbane," Michael Longcor
Aaron Conklin
Henning Torsteinsen wrote:
> What I would like to know is:
>
> Who was Demandred supposed to unleash BF on?
I think that the DO was asking figurativly..asking if would do it, to
obey his lord, even if meant destroying the world he (demandred) wished
to rule.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:01:01 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>Just to let you know my thinking on this: I believe that Moridin, the
>>Watcher, and the Wanderer are all one and the same person. I do not
>>believe that they (he) are Ishamael recycled. I reserve that honer for
>>Shaidar Haran.
>Ok, if you beleive that all three are the same then I will focus this
>arguement on the Watcher, since he gives the most clues pointing to Ishy.
[munch the stuff that I agree with]
> The Watcher has Saa in his eyes and uses the True Power. According to
>Moghedien only 29 others have ever been granted the use of the true power,
>so this is a rare thing. Also, she states that the Forsaken knew the risks
>of using the true power and that she did not believe there was a will alive
>that could resist the urge to channel it once the Saa appeared. This means
>that the other Forsaken have used it infrequently or not at all, except
>perhaps Ishy.
Aginor is a potential exception. He was the creator of the
Shadowspawn. I suspect that little trick would have involved the use
of the True Power.
>The Watcher uses it for things that Saidin would do, like make
>gateways.
Not quite.
> So it looks like we have a male Forsaken from the AoL that uses the true
>power alot. Aginor and Balthamel are reborn as the 'gars, and we know that
>Aran'gar is Halima. Osan'gar MAY be Dashiva. However, if you beleive that
>the Watcher, Wanderer, Moridin are all the same, then the physical
>description is wrong for Osan'gar.
We don't have a physical description of Osan'gar (Aginor recycled)
beyond this: "Not young, but younger than the face he had worn on
first waking from the long sleep,...An ordinary face,..."
This is not enough to eliminate...what am I saying.
>Be'lal and Rhavin are permanently dead by balefire. Demandred is presently
>unaccounted for, but we know that he is obssessed with becoming Nae'blis,
>something that the watcher seemed to shrug off.
>Demandred also did not have Saa the last we saw of him, and once again he
>does not fit the physical description of Moridin and Wanderer. Sam is, of
>course, out. Asmodean has died the final death. So who is the watcher? The
>only male forsaken left is..... Ishy.
Moridin or Shaidar Haran. Pick one. The other has to be someone new.
Compare Moridin's style in dealing with Moghedien with Shaidar
Haran's. Remember how Ishamael dealt with the other Forsaken in
previous books? I can't think of a better candidate for Ishamael
recycled than Shaidar Haran. Ishamael as Moridin? I'm just not seeing
it.
So. Who is Moridin/the Wanderer/the Watcher? Someone new. Possibly
Asmodean's killer. Someone from the AoL that Asmodean may have thought
was long dead. Someone that the other Forsaken may not know of.
A _new_ character.
> As a last note the Watcher also talks about all of the times he has seen
>truth change and changed it himself, this sounds like a possible reference
>to Ishy's years of plotting after the breaking, but this is thin.
I agree. This could apply to any of the Dark Ones minions.
>>Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
> If Ishy is reborn in a new body, like the 'gars, then of course she
>would not know him
Of course. I'm suggesting that she _never_ knew him.
> There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
>balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin. Since
>we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not have
>used Saidar. He used the true power.
I doubt it.
Richard K. Bollinger
The plots of the Shadow are often murky.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:59:06 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>>: "Heart of the Dark"...how literal is that?
>Yes, but nowwhere does it say the dark one gave Ishy that name, while we
>know the dark one bestowed the title "Hand of the Dark" on Shadar.
Be that as it may. The similarity is still striking.
>>Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran. Moridin/the Watcher/the
>>Wanderer is some new annoyance.
>The Watcher can hardly be some NEW person. It is obvious, see my post
>dealing specificly with the Watcher, that he has extensive knowledge of
>things long forgotten by anybody in this age and long experience dealing
>first hand with the Forsaken.
All of which I agree with. He could, nevertheless, be a new
_character._ We don't have to have foresee every new character. After
all, Olver came on the scene without much warning.
>He could be some unknown being from the AoL
>that we have never had any clues to, but this is very unlikely, only other
>major no clues/warning character is Cadsuane and Jordan also gave us lots of
>mysterious clues about Moridin/Watcher/Wanderer.
Such as? AFAICT, M/W/W just sprung onto the scene without _any_
warning. The only possible forshadowing that I can see _might_ be the
death of Asmodean.
And if you say that Moridin is Ishamael recycled, then you have
Shaidar Haran springing onto the scene without any forshadowing.
Either way, one of these characters came from nowhere.
I still can't see the suave, soft-spoken Moridin as being Ishamael.
When was Ishamael _ever_ soft-spoken?
Richard K. Bollinger
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:33:05 -0500, Rajiv Mote
<Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:15:19 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>> >In article <357cc58f...@news.concentric.net>,
>> > r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>> >> Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
>> >> Ishamael's.
>> >This is NOT a new theory.
>> It dosen't improve with the passage of time.
>> >I would appreciate evidence. Do you honestly think
>> >that the terrifying figure that haunted Rand, Mat and Perrin in their dreams
>> >was his personality?
>> In the sense that the way he acts is a reflection of his personality,
>> yes.
>Aran'gar acts nothing like what we saw of Balthamel. Attribute it to
>different circumstances and different orders.
Different circumstances, indeed. Balthamel partook of the pleasures of
the flesh. Aran'gar is probably suffering a sexual identity crisis. Or
not. Perhaps all this massaging of Egwene isn't as innocent as it
seems (well, we _know_ that it isn't innocent, but you get my drift, I
trust).
>The same can be said
>about any perceived personality differences between Moridin and
>Ishamael.
I doubt it. Besides, we don't have to make such an assumption if
Ishamael has been recycled as Shaidar Haran.
>And the biggest change in circumstance is Rand himself. Rand
>is no longer the untrained boy Ishamael terrorized in Tel'aran'rhiod.
Bah! Ishamael tried to bully full-blown Forsaken. We've _seen_ him do
this.
>Moridin has to adjust his tactics accordingly.
See above.
Richard K. Bollinger
On 11 Jun 1998 15:00:01 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>: On 9 Jun 1998 22:47:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
>: wrote:
>: >Richard K. Bollinger <r...@cris.comspam> writes:
>: >: On 9 Jun 1998 06:51:00 -0700, Steven Odhner <ta...@primenet.com>
>: >: wrote:
>: Demandred can still move about freely. Shaidar Haran can't. Perhaps
>: the Dark One likes a leashed dog more than a "Taimed" wolf?
> Is that a Taim joke? Anyway, the above only matters if the DO is
>the one binding SH to SG. If SH is an Avatar, then the binding would be
>because of the DO being bound there by the seals.
The idea of the Dark One wandering around in the body of a Fade is
ludicrous.
>: >: "WHEN YOU OBEY SHAIDAR HARAN, YOU OBEY ME. WHEN YOU DISOBEY SHAIDAR
>: >: HARAN..." Threads Woven of Shadow, LoC pg. 141 hb.
><snip "This means something" "No, it doesn't.">
> I still say this quote is, if not proof, a hint.
Bah!
>: > Either way, the point still stands. SH has clearly stated that he
>: >is bound to SG. This sounds very unusual, unless SH is an avatar of the
>: >DO. Why else would he be bound?
>: Explain the Blight, then.
> Are normal Fades stuck in the Blight? No. Trollocs? No.
>Draghar? (Wow, I spelled that wrong!) No. Darkhounds? No. Why SH? The
>things that stay in the Blight most likely stay there because of
>environmental reasons. Shaidar Haran, however, is bound to SG because he
>is an Avatar of the Dark One. IMHO, of course.
I don't know, but I still maintain that the Dark One wandering about
in the body of a Fade is ludicrous.
>: >Do you have a better theory, or are you just undecided?
>: Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran.
> I can't think of _any_ proof for this, while the Shaidar Haran =
>Avatar thing has some hints and evidence. Admittedly not as much as I
>thought there was before I tried to write it down, but it's there. Why do
>you think Shaidar Haran is Ishy?
Their personalities vis a vis the way they interact with the Forsaken
are identical.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:05:44 -0500, Aaron Conklin <aa...@ipresent.com>
wrote:
>Rajiv Mote wrote:
>> Aran'gar acts nothing like what we saw of Balthamel. Attribute it to
>> different circumstances and different orders. The same can be said
>> about any perceived personality differences between Moridin and
>> Ishamael. And the biggest change in circumstance is Rand himself. Rand
>> is no longer the untrained boy Ishamael terrorized in Tel'aran'rhiod.
>> Moridin has to adjust his tactics accordingly.
>Not only that, but even if Moridin is Ishy resurected by the DO, it
>doesn't mean that he is exactly the same as he was before. The whole
>ordeal could have changed him up psychologically, who knows what being
>reborn by the DO would do.
You're reaching. The whole _point_ of recycling a character is to
preserve them. If it changes them too much, then you have an entirely
new character, and the reason for doing it is lost.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:38:20 -0500, Rajiv Mote
<Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>> <Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>> >The Dark One still brushes Demandred's head with the stone "teeth" and
>> >Demandred is expected to genuflect in the Dark One's presence. Shaidar
>> >Haran has no such obligations. We haven't seen anyone else take such
>> >liberties.
>> "We haven't seen..." And therein lies the problem. Was Ishamael
>> allowed such liberties?
>If he was, none of the other Forsaken were aware of it or (1) Demandred
>wouldn't have been so surprised to see the liberties given to Shaidar
>Haran and (2) they would have suspected a Nae'blis had been selected.
Perhaps one _has_ been.
That aside, why would a fade be so honored? Unless it was Ishamael
recycled.
>> >The problem remains why Shaidar Haran, and nobody else save the Dark
>> >One, is bound to Shayol Ghul.
>> Enh. The Blight is limited. And, by extension, most of the nasties
>> that exist in it. It would seem that the Shadowspawn that can exist
>> outside the blight are the exception rather than the rule.
>But the Blight isn't precisely limited -- we know the Blightborder
>expands periodically. And assuming for a moment that Shadowspawn =are=
>bound to a region surrounding Shayol Ghul, why would the Dark One
>reincarnate his (arguably) most successful servant in a tethered body?
>And why not the same for Aginor and Balthamel?
The plots of the Shadow are often murky.
"Ishamael was more than than half-mad," Sammael muttered, "and less
than half-human."
>Whatever the case, we haven't seen any indication that Myrddraal (or
>Trollocs, Dragkhar, Darkhounds or Gholam) are bound in any way to the
>Blight or Shayol Ghul. Both current events and history (Trolloc Wars)
>indicate that they can exist for long periods away from Shayol Ghul.
>The only critters we haven't seen outside the Blight are the poisonous
>vegetation, evil trees, spider-beasties that live among them, lake
>monsters, jumara and what-jumara-fear. This is most likely a simple
>matter of comfortable habitat.
Sure, but the vast majority remain in the Blight, and only make
sorties out of it from time to time.
>Shaidar Haran is something altogether different. If anyone is a
>candidate for being "some new annoyance" as you put it, it's him.
This is, of course, a possibility. I don't believe it, however. If the
Dark One can create new nasties unaided, then why did he ever have
need of the Forsaken?
Richard K. Bollinger
On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:00:44 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>In article <357db1bd...@news.concentric.net>,
> r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 21:15:19 GMT, conk...@mindnet.org wrote:
>> >In article <357cc58f...@news.concentric.net>,
>> > r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) wrote:
>Oh damn I really just did not feel like arguing this this far, but if you
>insist.....
>> >> >2. Moridin = Ishmael: shall I introduce some evidence? Moggy says that she has
>> >> >to wear red and black in ACoS because it was Moridin's livery. Jeez...who
>> >> >ELSE's colors are red and black? Mere coincidence? Does RJ do anything by
>> >> >coincidence?
>> >> Coincidental. And irrelevant. Moridin's personality is nothing like
>> >> Ishamael's.
>> >This is NOT a new theory.
>> It dosen't improve with the passage of time.
>Okay, my full blown Ishy = Moridin argument:
>1. My first point is still the color thing. RJ has given us precious little
>information of Moridin and I tend to think that when RJ knows that we are
>going to be all crazy trying to figure out who he is, every piece of
>info we get is important. Moggy said Moridin used red and black as his livery.
>Okay. maybe these are just his favorite colors, but why mention it? Give me
>one other meanigless coincidence of this caliber? Anyone? Didn't think so.
Olver is ugly. So was Gaidal Cain. Coincidence?
>2. He is in all likelihood and person from the AoL due to his knowledge
>of cour'sourva and vacuoles. There is more to this on the FAQ.
I never said he wasn't.
>3. Ishy is the only entity we have seen besides Moridin and the wanderer
>who channels the TP. (That is also inthe FAQ)
Be'lal.
>Okay, I'm getting tired of reciting the FAQ. I'm going to assume you've read
>it anyway and just overlooked this part. I would appreciate an argument with
>substance. For instance: why is Moridin's personality nothing like Ishy's?
Reread "Mindtrap." Remember how Ishamael has interacted with
_everyone_ in the past. Then you tell me which character - Shaidar
Haran or Moridin - is a better match.
Richard K. Bollinger
On 11 Jun 1998 20:08:30 GMT, wf...@concentric.net.REMOVE (Bill Garrett)
wrote:
>r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger) writes:
>} >In his battle with Rand in TDR, he called out, "I cannot be defeated!
>} >Aid me!" and then opened a new can of whupass.
>} Ummm...Ishamael called for aid. An odd thing to do in the scheme of
>} the tWoT, given that those that can wield Power beyond the ken of
>} ordinary mortals do so without calling out to it.
>} My interpretation of this scene was that Ishamael asked the Dark One
>} to save him from certain destruction. And the Dark One did.
>Yes, but _how_ did the Dark One help him?
>The most likely answer is that the DO allowed him to use TP.
How do you figure? Ishamael _died._ What we saw, IMO, was the Dark One
taking his soul for recycling. However nifty the True Power may be, I
haven't seen anything that warrants the assumption that it allows you
to become some noncorporeal entity.
>} This permission bit...I seem to recall discussing this before, but I
>} don't recall the specifics. Why, exactly, do you believe that
>} permission must be given for each use of the True Power? Ishamael
>} didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least) in _Dragonmount._ The
>} Watcher didn't ask to use it (on stage, at least).
>It's possible that they had preapproval at those times or that they
>made some form of request not obvious to an observer.
It's possible. It's also a stretch, IMHO.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:23:45 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>>>Richard K. Bollinger (r...@cris.comspam) wrote:
>>Balefire is a product of the One Power. The True Power may be capable
>>of producing similar results, but in no instance has the observed
>>action been the same.
> Huh? The Wanderer shoots balfire from his hand, described exactly as all
>other balefire has been, and he is not using Saiden.. he is using the true
>power.
An unfounded assumption that has taken on a life of its own.
Prove it.
>>We have Black Flames racing from Shaidar Haran's
>>palm versus your more garden variety flame racing from the palms of
>>those channeling the One Power.
>Who ever said Shadar uses the true power? It could be his own ability, like
>the normal fades shadow travel. Which the Forsaken, who understand the true
>power, do not understand. It could be the true power but there is no
>evidence.
This doesn't stop you from making the assertion that the Wanderer used
the True Power.
>Nor does the fact that we have not seen someone use Saidar or
>Saiden to produce black flames mean that they can't be used to produce
>black flames.
If anything goes, then there is no point in discussing this. If
anything goes, then Jordan can't finish his story in anything like a
coherent manner. The plot will just explode in a million directions,
and nothing will ever be resolved conclusively, with book after book
after book...
Oh. My. God.
>> We have Shaitans Healing versus the
>>Garden variety. And, most importantly, we have the Dark One hisself
>>saying "..., YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT
>>STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME." The DO can't save anyone from Balefire.
>Channelers of Saidar and Saiden can't save people from balefire either, yet
>they can produce it.
Good point. My bad logic.
>>Balefire involves screwing about with time. The DO cannot step outside
>>of time. Channelers of the One Power can. After a fashion.
>Huh? Balefire burns threads from the pattern, it does not involve stepping
>out of time.
Semantics. But if you want a more concrete example, consider Rand's
experiments with Portal Stones.
>>I simply don't believe that any Channeling of the TP could reproduce
>>Balefire. I don't believe that that is a power that the Dark One has.
>See the Wanderer's production of balefire with the true power.
Bite me. He was not using the True Power. This theory was always
unfounded.
>>Why else would the Dark One be so interested in asking Demandred if he
>>would be willing to "UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE...?"
>Because Demandred wants a world left to rule, that is why both sides stopped
>using it in the war of power. The dark one knows that the Forsaken quit
>using balefire back then and are probably reluctant to use it now.
You did not answer my question.
>>Why else would the Dark One need channelers, if not because they can
>>do something that he can't?
>Hmm.. like touch the world directly?
What...like he could way back when when he started recruiting the
Choosen?
Sheesh!
Richard K. Bollinger
On 12 Jun 1998 02:36:21 GMT, suc...@aol.com (SUCheer) wrote:
>I do not recall an Avatar being mentioned in the books... can someone help me
>out here?
You want alt.fan.robert-jordan just down the hall on the left.
Dave Abbott
Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>The Watcher uses it for things that Saidin would do, like make
>>gateways.
>
>Not quite.
Huh? I seem to remember Rand using Saiden to make gateways.
>Moridin or Shaidar Haran. Pick one. The other has to be someone new.
>Compare Moridin's style in dealing with Moghedien with Shaidar
>Haran's. Remember how Ishamael dealt with the other Forsaken in
>previous books? I can't think of a better candidate for Ishamael
>recycled than Shaidar Haran. Ishamael as Moridin? I'm just not seeing
>it.
Why? Ishy worked behind the scenes manipulating things for thousands of
years. And what is so nice about making Moghedien your total slave with her
life in your hands? Ishy is a devious and cunning character.
If Ishy is Shadar then it is a crappy reincarnation. Balthamel was mad
about a woman's body. Try a fades body with limited freedom. Thank you for
those thousands of years of loyal service there Ish, but look we are low on
young good looking bodies, those went to that guy nobody ever heard of, so
you will have to settle for this one. I don't buy this.
>So. Who is Moridin/the Wanderer/the Watcher? Someone new. Possibly
>Asmodean's killer. Someone from the AoL that Asmodean may have thought
>was long dead. Someone that the other Forsaken may not know of.
>
>A _new_ character.
>
What a new character from the AoL that suddenly appears after thousands of
years? What has he been doing? Why doesn't Moghedien kow him? Does he have a
new body? Did the dark one wait that long to bring him back? Why is he given
such a place of athority. Heck he must not have even survived the War of
Power. Plus we know that the Forsaken were the strongest to go over to the
shadow. Surely you don't think he could possibly be someone from this age?
There are lots of clues and mystery about who this guy is.
Why do this for a new character? The only other completely new and
unannounced major character is Cadsuane, and Jordan came right out about who
she was, oh look here is this long lost legendary Aes Sedai named Cadsuane,
and here is a little background on her too, have fun Rand. The clue dropping
and mystery about Moridin/Watcher/Wanderer is a classic Jordan way of saying
"Hey, you have seen this guy before".
>> As a last note the Watcher also talks about all of the times he has
seen
>>truth change and changed it himself, this sounds like a possible reference
>>to Ishy's years of plotting after the breaking, but this is thin.
>
>I agree. This could apply to any of the Dark Ones minions.
>
Which minion that wields the True Power, has extensive AoL and Forsaken
knowledge, and is a human male might that be?
>>>Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
>
>> If Ishy is reborn in a new body, like the 'gars, then of course she
>>would not know him
>
>Of course. I'm suggesting that she _never_ knew him.
Yet he must have been somebody big with the shadow back in the old days.
>> There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
>>balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin.
Since
>>we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not
have
>>used Saidar. He used the true power.
>
>I doubt it.
Why do you doubt this? It is obvious. What else could he have used?
Some unheard of power to go with some completely new and unheard of
character?
-Dave
-AW
Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
<snip>
> > There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
> >balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin. Since
> >we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not have
> >used Saidar. He used the true power.
>
> I doubt it.
>
Why?
-AW
K1n Gaidin
>Subject: Re: Ishamael, the Watcher,etc. (was: Re: I hate Cadsuane)
>From: asda...@aol.com (Asdarthe)
>Date: Thu, Jun 11, 1998 18:03 EDT
>The DO could have been speaking non-literally, merely wishing to see how far
>Demandred would go to serve him. Would he risk messing up the Pattern a lot
>for his master.
Hmmm... what could have happened recently, off screen so to speak...that might
tempt the dark one into making Demandred erase it for him. They would have to
move fast, maybe within the hour. Course, maybe they're right... just wanted
to know, in general, what had happened.
Kin
SUCheer
Kaxon
On 11 Jun 1998 23:13:34 EDT, r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger)
wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:19:29 -0500, Rajiv Mote
><Rajiv...@compuNOSPAMserve.com> wrote:
>>Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
>
>>> Ishamael has been "reborn" as Shaidar Haran. Moridin/the Watcher/the
>>> Wanderer is some new annoyance.
>
>>When Aginor and Balthamel were reincarnated, the Shadow had to use a
>>pair of existing bodies from the Borderlands. The body of a giant
>>Myrddraal is, as far as we know, unique to Shaidar Haran. Why and how
>>was Ishamael reincarnated in such an... anomolous body?
>
>The plots of the Shadow are often murky.
>
Weak. Very weak.
(Sorry, couldn't stop myself!)
--
David "Kaxon" Scotton
"I'm so proud to be here."
Richard K. Bollinger
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:16:55 GMT, -AW <w...@not.ask> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote:
Please do not mangle the attributions.
>> > There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
>> >balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin. Since
>> >we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not have
>> >used Saidar. He used the true power.
>> I doubt it.
>Why?
Because we have seen other Forsaken weild the One Power without other
being aware that they were channeling (c.f. Mesaana in aCoS prologue).
Richard K. Bollinger
>On 11 Jun 1998 23:13:34 EDT, r...@cris.comspam (Richard K. Bollinger)
>wrote:
>>The plots of the Shadow are often murky.
>Weak. Very weak.
Phbbt!
>(Sorry, couldn't stop myself!)
Don't apologize. _Never_ apologize.
Apologizing is weak. Very weak.
Richard K. Bollinger
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:10:11 -0500, "Dave Abbott" <unknown> wrote:
>Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>>The Watcher uses it for things that Saidin would do, like make
>>>gateways.
>>Not quite.
>Huh? I seem to remember Rand using Saiden to make gateways.
No. You don't. Rand channeled _saidin._
I expect a "duh?" type response to this.
>>Moridin or Shaidar Haran. Pick one. The other has to be someone new.
>>Compare Moridin's style in dealing with Moghedien with Shaidar
>>Haran's. Remember how Ishamael dealt with the other Forsaken in
>>previous books? I can't think of a better candidate for Ishamael
>>recycled than Shaidar Haran. Ishamael as Moridin? I'm just not seeing
>>it.
> Why? Ishy worked behind the scenes manipulating things for thousands of
>years. And what is so nice about making Moghedien your total slave with her
>life in your hands? Ishy is a devious and cunning character.
Uh, huh!
Sure he is.
> If Ishy is Shadar then it is a crappy reincarnation. Balthamel was mad
>about a woman's body. Try a fades body with limited freedom. Thank you for
>those thousands of years of loyal service there Ish, but look we are low on
>young good looking bodies, those went to that guy nobody ever heard of, so
>you will have to settle for this one. I don't buy this.
You've lost me. Completely.
WTF?
Ishamael no longer gives a shit about _any_ concern even _remotely_
human.
He doesn't give a damn.
>>So. Who is Moridin/the Wanderer/the Watcher? Someone new. Possibly
>>Asmodean's killer. Someone from the AoL that Asmodean may have thought
>>was long dead. Someone that the other Forsaken may not know of.
>>A _new_ character.
>What a new character from the AoL that suddenly appears after thousands of
>years?
Why not?
>What has he been doing?
What was Asmodean doing? What is Demandred doing?
>Why doesn't Moghedien kow him?
Mysterious, isn't it?
>Does he have a new body?
I doubt it.
>Did the dark one wait that long to bring him back?
What makes you think he was ever 'gone?'
>Why is he given
>such a place of athority.
You tell me.
If your answer is that he is Ishamael reborn, then explain why the
superfade Shaidar Haran is given such a place of authority.
BTW, what authority has Moridin been given? Control over one sorry-ass
Forsaken?
*snort*
>Heck he must not have even survived the War of
>Power.
Obviously, he 1) did, or 2) came after.
>Plus we know that the Forsaken were the strongest to go over to the
>shadow.
Among the strongest, yes. Lews Therin did not go over to the Shadow.
Nor did many others.
>Surely you don't think he could possibly be someone from this age?
I doubt it.
>There are lots of clues and mystery about who this guy is.
Really? Clues and mysteries? You'll excuse me if I say that those two
words, if used in this fashion, don't belong in the same sentence.
>Why do this for a new character? The only other completely new and
>unannounced major character is Cadsuane, and Jordan came right out about who
>she was, oh look here is this long lost legendary Aes Sedai named Cadsuane,
>and here is a little background on her too, have fun Rand. The clue dropping
>and mystery about Moridin/Watcher/Wanderer is a classic Jordan way of saying
>"Hey, you have seen this guy before".
Uh, huh. And this "major and unannounced" character by the name of
Shaidar Haran was foreshadowed where, exactly?
>>> As a last note the Watcher also talks about all of the times he has
>seen
>>>truth change and changed it himself, this sounds like a possible reference
>>>to Ishy's years of plotting after the breaking, but this is thin.
>>I agree. This could apply to any of the Dark Ones minions.
>Which minion that wields the True Power, has extensive AoL and Forsaken
>knowledge, and is a human male might that be?
Any of the male Forsaken.
Past or present.
>>>>Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
>>> If Ishy is reborn in a new body, like the 'gars, then of course she
>>>would not know him
>>Of course. I'm suggesting that she _never_ knew him.
>Yet he must have been somebody big with the shadow back in the old days.
The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.
Why is this a conceptual difficulty for you?
>>> There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
>>>balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin.
>Since
>>>we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not
>have
>>>used Saidar. He used the true power.
>>I doubt it.
>Why do you doubt this? It is obvious. What else could he have used?
Inverted weaves.
>Some unheard of power to go with some completely new and unheard of
>character?
Say that again. Slowly.
Dave Abbott
>>Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>>Huh? I seem to remember Rand using Saiden to make gateways.
>
>No. You don't. Rand channeled _saidin._
>
>I expect a "duh?" type response to this.
Hey.. so I am not the best with spelling or typing
>> Why? Ishy worked behind the scenes manipulating things for thousands
of
>>years. And what is so nice about making Moghedien your total slave with
her
>>life in your hands? Ishy is a devious and cunning character.
>
>Uh, huh!
>
>Sure he is.
Ishy has had a hand in things like the Trolloc Wars and the Hundred Years
war, the sending of the armies across the ocean, and numerous tower
schemes.. the man (not the too-tall fade) is cunning.
>> If Ishy is Shadar then it is a crappy reincarnation. Balthamel was mad
>>about a woman's body. Try a fades body with limited freedom. Thank you for
>>those thousands of years of loyal service there Ish, but look we are low
on
>>young good looking bodies, those went to that guy nobody ever heard of, so
>>you will have to settle for this one. I don't buy this.
>
>You've lost me. Completely.
>
>WTF?
>
>Ishamael no longer gives a shit about _any_ concern even _remotely_
>human.
>
>He doesn't give a damn.
Why not? If he gets a chance to have a brand new body why not have at least
a human one?
>>What a new character from the AoL that suddenly appears after thousands of
>>years?
>
>Why not?
>
>>What has he been doing?
>
>What was Asmodean doing? What is Demandred doing?
They have been sealed up for about 3000 years.... what has this guy been
doing? Thats a long time to still be alive, since he was not sealed.
>>Why doesn't Moghedien kow him?
>Mysterious, isn't it?
Not to me
>>Does he have a new body?
>
>I doubt it
Then she should recognize him if he is from the AoL and has all this
knowledge about the Forsaken and the dark one.
>>Did the dark one wait that long to bring him back?
>What makes you think he was ever 'gone?'
Because that would explain a possible new body and why Moghedien does not
know him. Either that or he has been living in Randland for 3000 years....
remarkable.
>>Why is he given
>>such a place of athority.
>
>You tell me.
Hey its your theory that he is some new guy, not mine.
>If your answer is that he is Ishamael reborn, then explain why the
>superfade Shaidar Haran is given such a place of authority.
Hmm.. he is the dark ones Avatar.
>BTW, what authority has Moridin been given? Control over one sorry-ass
>Forsaken?
>
>*snort*
Right.. umm your saying control over the Forsaken grows on trees, not to
mention the other mindtrap he has.. those grow on trees too I guess. He also
seems to think he as enough athority or power to break up Sam and Grendael
if they get in a fight. Hmm, lets see the other characters who have had
control over a Forsaken are Shadar Haran.. what an unathoritative wimp,
Rand.. just a mudfoot from the Two Rivers, the Dark One... heck he couldn't
even take on the Creator, and Nynaeve... we know she is just a sniffing
braid-puller.
>>Plus we know that the Forsaken were the strongest to go over to the
>>shadow.
>
>Among the strongest, yes. Lews Therin did not go over to the Shadow.
>Nor did many others.
I said the strongest to go over to the shadow, not all of the strongest went
over to the shadow.
>>Surely you don't think he could possibly be someone from this age?
>
>I doubt it.
Wow... we got some possible agreement here :)
>>There are lots of clues and mystery about who this guy is.
>
>Really? Clues and mysteries? You'll excuse me if I say that those two
>words, if used in this fashion, don't belong in the same sentence.
Ummm... to have clues you need a mystery to solve.
>>Why do this for a new character? The only other completely new and
>>unannounced major character is Cadsuane, and Jordan came right out about
who
>>she was, oh look here is this long lost legendary Aes Sedai named
Cadsuane,
>>and here is a little background on her too, have fun Rand. The clue
dropping
>>and mystery about Moridin/Watcher/Wanderer is a classic Jordan way of
saying
>>"Hey, you have seen this guy before".
>
>Uh, huh. And this "major and unannounced" character by the name of
>Shaidar Haran was foreshadowed where, exactly?
Doh! forget the " unannounced" part there, I got to rambling a bit. Just
trying to say that I think RJ was giving us clues about this guy because he
is an old character that has come back.
>>>> As a last note the Watcher also talks about all of the times he has
>>seen
>>>>truth change and changed it himself, this sounds like a possible
reference
>>>>to Ishy's years of plotting after the breaking, but this is thin.
>
>>>I agree. This could apply to any of the Dark Ones minions.
>
>>Which minion that wields the True Power, has extensive AoL and Forsaken
>>knowledge, and is a human male might that be?
>
>Any of the male Forsaken.
>
>Past or present.
Hmm.. which Forsaken is standing in the shadows watching Sam and Greandal
when he thinks this? The only possibilities are Ishy and Osan'gar. Although
Osan'gar has an older body and Moridin's is described as young.
>>>>>Yes. But Moghedien did not "know" Moridin.
>
>>>> If Ishy is reborn in a new body, like the 'gars, then of course she
>>>>would not know him
>
>>>Of course. I'm suggesting that she _never_ knew him.
>
>>Yet he must have been somebody big with the shadow back in the old days.
>
>The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.
>
>Why is this a conceptual difficulty for you?
I think the Forsaken kept close tabs on anybody that might have been a
challenge to their athority. If this guy was alive back then and is a
powerful as he seems I think they would have known him.
>>>> There is also proof that the Wanderer used the true power, he made
>>>>balefire and somehow vanished without Rand being able to sense Saidin.
>>Since
>>>>we KNOW that the Watcher is indeed male in all ways, then he could not
>>have
>>>>used Saidar. He used the true power.
>
>>>I doubt it.
>
>>Why do you doubt this? It is obvious. What else could he have used?
>
>Inverted weaves.
I have a question here. We have seen females hide their ability to
channel and wether or not they are embracing the source (the glow women see)
from other women. Can men do it? Men sense Saidin differently. Can you
invert a weave as it is being channeled so that it is undectable like you
would have to do with balefire? You suggestion in another post the Messana
did this in the prologue to aCoS is false. She hid here ability to channel
and her mask, which was already in place, was inverted. When she wove the
gateway you could see the flows. Do you have to complete the weave and then
invert it? Can the residue of Saidin channeling be covered up? Can the sense
that a male channeler gets when Saiden is channeld be covered up?
Why would the Wanderer go to all this trouble, he did not seem afraid of
Sam, in fact suggested that he could kill him, and if he is afraid of
detection why not just use the true power.. we know he can if he is Moridin
or the Watcher.
>>Some unheard of power to go with some completely new and unheard of
>>character?
>
>Say that again. Slowly.
I will have to put more emphasis on the sarcasm this time.
-Dave
Dave Abbott
Richard K. Bollinger wrote in message
>Enh. The Blight is limited. And, by extension, most of the nasties
>that exist in it. It would seem that the Shadowspawn that can exist
>outside the blight are the exception rather than the rule.
>
Hmm.. during that little conflict called the Trolloc Wars, which lasted 300
years, shadowspawn roamed all over the land. Besides the worms, the thing
that lived in the lake, and therefore sorta limited in movement, and blight
plants, also not real mobile, what have we not seen outside the blight?
-Dave