Cadsuane's Use of Blackmail
Steve
blackmailing Ailil and Shalon after finding them stuffed under Ailil's
bed (where Rand left them at the end of PoD). Cadsuane also thinks to
herself that "[b]lackmail was a tool she disliked using, but she had
already used it on the three Asha'man..." (TOR hardcover, page 309)
It seems clear that the three Asha'man are Jahar Narishma, Eben Hopwil
and Damer Flinn; however, I am at a loss as to what she is
blackmailing them with.
All three were in the Sun Palace when the renegade AM attacked Rand,
but I get the impression Rand has decided they were not involved in
the attack.
All three are on Taim's list of deserters. She could tell Taim where
the three are, but the palace would be a fairly obvious place to look.
All three are bonded to AS, but a later quote (which I can't find
right now) indicates that they were not coerced (at least by the AS
who bonded them). Did Cad force them to agree to be bonded so that
she would have more control over them? That would be useful since
Rand trusts these three AM. If so, I'm still left wondering what she
has to hold over their heads.
S
Alaric Fox
sbar...@earthlink.spaaam.net says...
That means they did it of their own free will. That *doesn't* mean they
told Rand, or believe he would approve. Thus, if Cad knows about their
bonding, she could blackmail them by threatening to reveal it to Rand.
Of course, it probably wouldn't come out that way, it would probably be
more like she confides in them by telling them that she is pulled between
two options - one where she *lets* them help her by doing something
they don't want to do, at the cost of deceiving Rand, and the other, that
she must uphold her "oaths" and inform Rand.
Basically, since we know Cad to be on the Light side, we can conclude:
1) Cad approves (or at least doesn't completely disapprove) of AS bonding
AM.
2) Cad believes that the three AM are Light Siders.
3) The three AM don't believe Cad to be a DF (they'd probably risk
discovery in that case).
IOW, the AM probably believe that bonding will help them, the AM as a
whole, Rand, and the World. The AS, unwilling as ever to take aid
genuinely offered, try to take it by force.
--
Alaric
David Whelan
> the three are, but the palace would be a fairly obvious place to look.
>
> All three are bonded to AS, but a later quote (which I can't find
> right now) indicates that they were not coerced (at least by the AS
> who bonded them). Did Cad force them to agree to be bonded so that
> she would have more control over them? That would be useful since
> Rand trusts these three AM. If so, I'm still left wondering what she
> has to hold over their heads.
The Aes Sedai that are bonded to the three AM seem fairly attached
(other than the bond) to them - when one dies the AS is seen cyring.
If Cadsuane had coerced them into bonding the AS wouldn't really care.
And Cadsuane could not really blackmail them regarding Taim - at least
not without the bonded AS co-operation - because she wouldn't know
where they were. As to what she actually did blackmail them with is
beyond me. Unless she would tell Rand that they had bonded Aes Sedai -
but that would be pointless as he knew anyway.
David Whelan
T Ormond
<50783a39.0105...@posting.google.com>:
>> All three are on Taim's list of deserters. She could tell Taim where
>> the three are, but the palace would be a fairly obvious place to look.
>>
>> All three are bonded to AS, but a later quote (which I can't find
>> right now) indicates that they were not coerced (at least by the AS
>> who bonded them). Did Cad force them to agree to be bonded so that
>> she would have more control over them? That would be useful since
>> Rand trusts these three AM. If so, I'm still left wondering what she
>> has to hold over their heads.
>
>The Aes Sedai that are bonded to the three AM seem fairly attached
>(other than the bond) to them - when one dies the AS is seen cyring.
That's a known side effect of having a warder die. That doesn't mean
that there aren't other feelings involved but even if she hates the man,
unconsolable grief tends to be one of the immediate side effects of a
warder's death.
John S. Novak, III
>AFAIR, you are correct about the three Ashaman not being coerced to bond.
>That means they did it of their own free will. That *doesn't* mean they
>told Rand, or believe he would approve.
I rather expect he would disapprove in the strongest possible terms,
given his experience with Aes Sedai in particular, and with Alanna in
particular.
I rather expect that other Asha'man might look at them a bit
strangely, if the bond is as unbalanced as the typical Aes
Sedai/Warder bond.
I rather expect that Taim, if he ever found out, would hang their
still bleeding skins from the Black Tower and then start torturing the
rest.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
The Humblest Man on the Net
John S. Novak, III
>The Aes Sedai that are bonded to the three AM seem fairly attached
>(other than the bond) to them - when one dies the AS is seen cyring.
>If Cadsuane had coerced them into bonding the AS wouldn't really care.
Oh, I expect they would.
The bond would force a reaction out of them, I suspect.
Belka Z.B.B.
Why do we know that? We can suppose that she is not on the Shadow
side. To me seems she is some independent side :), which may
be beneficial for Rand/3 AM/the Light, and may be not. I don't see
any revelations about her true intentions in the books. In her POV
she always hints that she has some pretty particular goal, but never
exactly that her goal is to help Rand. Or I'm terribly mistaken?
Events show that she do something useful for the Light side,
but many ppl from another side do like that sometimes. Ishy saved
Rand's life directly in Shadar Logoth. Don't mention what good
Lanfear did for him. Lots of useful things, ideas, knowledge.
Taught him actually :). Which alone says nothing about her goals.
>1) Cad approves (or at least doesn't completely disapprove) of AS bonding
>AM.
>
>2) Cad believes that the three AM are Light Siders.
>
>3) The three AM don't believe Cad to be a DF (they'd probably risk
>discovery in that case).
>
>IOW, the AM probably believe that bonding will help them, the AM as a
>whole, Rand, and the World.
Cadsuane also HELPED Logain. Do you think he should be very grateful?
The AS, unwilling as ever to take aid
>genuinely offered, try to take it by force.
>
>--
>Alaric
Belka.
David Whelan
> On 22 May 2001 14:24:40 -0700, David Whelan <davs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The Aes Sedai that are bonded to the three AM seem fairly attached
> >(other than the bond) to them - when one dies the AS is seen cyring.
> >If Cadsuane had coerced them into bonding the AS wouldn't really care.
>
> Oh, I expect they would.
> The bond would force a reaction out of them, I suspect.
Well, I did think of that , but would the AS actually compel them to
sit there rocking the body like they did (Daigan rocking Hopwil,
IIRC). I dont think so.
David Whelan
Nick Leitch
The bond would not compel them to do anything except suffer feelings of
intense grief.
How the AS responds to this grief is a matter of their personality, and
may well manifest itself as you state above.
Nick.
TnTEnt2000
>herself that "[b]lackmail was a tool she disliked using, but she had
>already used it on the three Asha'man..." (TOR hardcover, page 309)
>It seems clear that the three Asha'man are Jahar Narishma, Eben Hopwil
>and Damer Flinn; however, I am at a loss as to what she is
>blackmailing them with.
>
>All three were in the Sun Palace when the renegade AM attacked Rand,
>but I get the impression Rand has decided they were not involved in
>the attack.
>
>All three are on Taim's list of deserters. She could tell Taim where
>the three are, but the palace would be a fairly obvious place to look.
>
>All three are bonded to AS, but a later quote (which I can't find
>right now) indicates that they were not coerced (at least by the AS
>who bonded them). Did Cad force them to agree to be bonded so that
>she would have more control over them? That would be useful since
>Rand trusts these three AM. If so, I'm still left wondering what she
>has to hold over their heads.
The three AM are scared stiff of being found by Taim, as they have
surmised that Taim sanctioned the attack on Rand at the Sun Palace.
They know Taim can Travel, and with Rand bouncing around to keep
everyone off balance, they feel isolated and exposed. This is explained
over the course of the Far Madding chapters of WH.
Rand surely isn't the source of the blackmail threat between Cadsuane
and the AM, since it is one of the first things she tells Rand on
meeting him in Far Madding, so I rather suspect that the blackmail's
teeth is related to Taim. What Cadsuane got out of the blackmail
couldn't be getting the AM Warder bonded. IIRC, it's mentioned that the
AS asked the AM, politely if insistently, and got permission before
bonding them. Hardly Cadsuane's style of doing things. Also, by this
time she's spoken to Alanna about the bond with Rand, and learned
that Rand couldn't be compelled through the bond. What sort of
blackmail purpose could then be served by having three male
channelers bonded, when the odds are that it will have no force by
which to make them obey?
There is surely much more to be learned about Cadsuane, and it's a
lock that she has a few more unknown goodies hanging from the bun
of hers. Perhaps one of them will be the key to her hold over the AM.
John Hamby
The later quote about not being coerced is from Alanna and
only indicates what Alanna knows of the situation. What is
more Alanna's perspective is only of the sisters who bonded the
three men. It does not include Cadsuane. So in no way is
Cadsuane innocent of manipulating things so that the three
Asha'man
accede to the requests made by the three other sisters.
Consider that these three are sitting in the Sun Palace amidst
the rubble of a male channeling blitzkrieg. And the Dragon
Reborn has disappeared. Basically leaving the three out to
dry. The Black Tower is not a likely refuge as the situation
in Illian had revealed a division between the Black Tower
Asha'man
(i.e. Taim's) and those that have been with Rand since Dumai's
Wells.
That alone is enough to make the three wary of returning to Taim
and
the BT. Add to that the fact that five Asha'man just tried to
kill the
Dragon Reborn. The cherry on the top is Rand's own reaction to
the three during the battle in the palace. Not exactly inspiring
stuff coming from one's leader.
Cadsuane has about a dozen sisters that follow her and
obey her every wish. Not counting the sisters sworn to
Rand in Cairhien. Or Cadsuane's seeming friendship
with Sorilea who leads the Wise Ones (and from an Asha'man's
point of view basically leads the Aiel).
Three male channelers in a city surrounded by enough women
to gentle you several times over. Three male channelers whose
political hopes and survival rest on Rand. And Rand's opinion
of the three is cloudy at best from their own perspective.
So Cadsuane's blackmail seems rather clear to me. She probably
told them that if they stayed in Cairhien that she could not
guarantee
their safety unless they somehow tied themselves to her. She
probably
also intimated that if they left Cairhien without any orders from
Rand to
do so, he would likely view them as renegades.
She might also have revealed that she knows how to Travel just
to impress upon the three her capabilities. Not needed after the
first two, but certainly a nice little extra if you are afraid
your
quarry may bolt.
---
JSH
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Erik Steiro
<snip, what Cadsuane is blackmailing Rands trusted AM>
>>All three are bonded to AS, but a later quote (which I can't find
>>right now) indicates that they were not coerced (at least by the AS
>>who bonded them). Did Cad force them to agree to be bonded so that
>>she would have more control over them? That would be useful since
>>Rand trusts these three AM. If so, I'm still left wondering what she
>>has to hold over their heads.
>
>The three AM are scared stiff of being found by Taim, as they have
>surmised that Taim sanctioned the attack on Rand at the Sun Palace.
>They know Taim can Travel, and with Rand bouncing around to keep
>everyone off balance, they feel isolated and exposed. This is explained
>over the course of the Far Madding chapters of WH.
>
>Rand surely isn't the source of the blackmail threat between Cadsuane
>and the AM, since it is one of the first things she tells Rand on
>meeting him in Far Madding, so I rather suspect that the blackmail's
>teeth is related to Taim. What Cadsuane got out of the blackmail
>couldn't be getting the AM Warder bonded. IIRC, it's mentioned that the
>AS asked the AM, politely if insistently, and got permission before
>bonding them. Hardly Cadsuane's style of doing things. Also, by this
>time she's spoken to Alanna about the bond with Rand, and learned
>that Rand couldn't be compelled through the bond. What sort of
>blackmail purpose could then be served by having three male
>channelers bonded, when the odds are that it will have no force by
>which to make them obey?
I always assumed that Cadsuane wanted control over the AM since they
are more or less trusted by Rand. To do this I suspect that she
ordered/manipulated the other AS to take a AM as a warder.
She then blackmails AM, that she will leave them there unless they let
them self be bonded. Threatening that she and the other AS will leave
Chairien and leave the AM there for Taim and his AM to capture them.
She does this rather hidden, and let them take their time in deciding.
Jon Osborn
wrote:
<snip>
> I rather expect that other Asha'man might look at [the three who became
> Warders] a bit strangely, if the bond is as unbalanced as the typical Aes
> Sedai/Warder bond.
Comparing the "normal" Warder/Aes Sedai bond (i.e. Moiriane/Lan and
other random AS and their Warders) to the "new and improved" bondings
(i.e. Rand/Alanna and Elayne/Birgitte), there must be something else
that the AS can do at the time of bonding. Elayne has made several
comments about regretting she did not do "something else" or "more"
when she bonded Birgitte. Either that or "normal" Warders are more
"flexible" than Rand and Birgitte. Big surprise, there, I guess, since
they wer both bonded involuntarily. But if it was done that way
before, what did AS do with involuntary Warders back in the bad old
days? Were they perhaps all as big pains in the ass (as Warders) as
Rand and Birgitte? Did olde tyme Aes Sedai have two classes of
Warders, the cooperative volunteers and the bitchy conscripts?
> I rather expect that Taim, if he ever found out, would hang their
> still bleeding skins from the Black Tower and then start torturing the
> rest.
Does anyone else think of the Asha'man as "M'Hael's Navy"? A joke only
Americans of a certain age will get, I presume.
--
Boycott Amazon.com!
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html
Stop typing amazon.com. Start typing http://www.noamazon.com
Dave Rothgery
> In <slrn9gmc...@localhost.localdomain>, John S. Novak, III,
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I rather expect that other Asha'man might look at [the three who became
> > Warders] a bit strangely, if the bond is as unbalanced as the typical Aes
> > Sedai/Warder bond.
>
> Comparing the "normal" Warder/Aes Sedai bond (i.e. Moiriane/Lan and
> other random AS and their Warders) to the "new and improved" bondings
> (i.e. Rand/Alanna and Elayne/Birgitte), there must be something else
> that the AS can do at the time of bonding. Elayne has made several
> comments about regretting she did not do "something else" or "more"
> when she bonded Birgitte.
It's more likely that Elayne simply doesn't know how to use the Bond to
compel Birgitte [1] -- and wouldn't even if she did -- and Alanna
couldn't compel Rand because he can channel and/or was holding saidin
(and this is likely true for the other Asha'man as well).
[1] As per Myrelle using the Bond to compel Lan, it requires some kind
of use of the Power to do so.
--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drot...@myrealbox.com
http://drothgery.editthispage.com
Richard M. Boye'
>
> In <slrn9gmc...@localhost.localdomain>, John S. Novak, III,
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I rather expect that other Asha'man might look at [the three who became
> > Warders] a bit strangely, if the bond is as unbalanced as the typical Aes
> > Sedai/Warder bond.
>
> Comparing the "normal" Warder/Aes Sedai bond (i.e. Moiriane/Lan and
> other random AS and their Warders) to the "new and improved" bondings
> (i.e. Rand/Alanna and Elayne/Birgitte), there must be something else
> that the AS can do at the time of bonding. Elayne has made several
> comments about regretting she did not do "something else" or "more"
> when she bonded Birgitte.
Alanna's bond on Rand and Elayne's bond on Birgitte are not "new and
improved." It's that the subjects are novel and unusual.
Alanna -tried- to use the compulsive aspect of the bond, but it wouldn't
work because Rand was channeling. This may be more of an indication that
the Bond is very related to Compulsion, because Graendal told us in her
POV that she would be unable to Compel Sammael because he was
channeling.
Elayne, OTOH, while out an about on her extracuricular adventures,
probably missed Bondholding 201: Employing the Bond, and she only
audited Bondholding 101: Making the Bond. She only saw how to make a
bond, not how to make use of its features. In any event, she probably
wouldn't ever use the bond the compel Birgitte any more than she would
use it to sap Birgitte of her vitality.
There is also the added wrinkle that whatever she tried to do Birgitte
would rebound on her in some unexpected ways. Because they are both
women, they are far more in sync than the typical Aes Sedai and Gaidin
(cf. Elayne's menstrual cycles aligning with Birgitte's and Elayne
getting tipsy when Birgitte gets whacked).
> > I rather expect that Taim, if he ever found out, would hang their
> > still bleeding skins from the Black Tower and then start torturing the
> > rest.
>
> Does anyone else think of the Asha'man as "M'Hael's Navy"? A joke only
> Americans of a certain age will get, I presume.
I tend to picture the SS, actually.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
* http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"I don't need to drink to have a good time.
I need to drink to stop the voices in my head."
Christine Dewar
"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
news:3B195E...@webspan.net...
> Jon Osborn wrote:
> >
> > In <slrn9gmc...@localhost.localdomain>, John S. Novak, III,
> > wrote:
> >
> Elayne, OTOH, while out an about on her extracuricular adventures,
> probably missed Bondholding 201: Employing the Bond, and she only
> audited Bondholding 101: Making the Bond. She only saw how to make a
> bond, not how to make use of its features. In any event, she
probably
> wouldn't ever use the bond the compel Birgitte any more than she
would
> use it to sap Birgitte of her vitality.
I seem to recall a comment to the extent that there are two bonding
weaves. One that allows compulsion and one that does not. One of the
other Aes Sedai was berating Alanna for not using the weave that
allowed one to compel the warder which was how it came out that she
tried and couldn't.
Christine
John Hamby
Kiruna berated Alanna in arrogant ignorance. Assuming that
there was no way that Rand could not possibly bend to Aes
Sedai methods and sense. Alanna rather smugly points this
to the shock of Kiruna and Bera and the chagrin of Faeldrin
and Seonid who seem to have have already been round that
particular stump with Alanna.
I find it particularly interesting that it is the Greens who show
incredible outrage over any others bending or breaking of the
rules involving a bond and yet seem not only the most willing to
break these rules but manipulate the bond past what most sisters
seem to consider decent.
Richard M. Boye'
>
> Christine Dewar wrote:
>
> > "Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
> > news:3B195E...@webspan.net...
> > > Jon Osborn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In <slrn9gmc...@localhost.localdomain>, John S. Novak, III,
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > <snip unable to compel a channeling man>
> >
> > > Elayne, OTOH, while out an about on her extracuricular adventures,
> > > probably missed Bondholding 201: Employing the Bond, and she only
> > > audited Bondholding 101: Making the Bond. She only saw how to make a
> > > bond, not how to make use of its features. In any event, she
> > probably
> > > wouldn't ever use the bond the compel Birgitte any more than she
> > would
> > > use it to sap Birgitte of her vitality.
> >
> > I seem to recall a comment to the extent that there are two bonding
> > weaves. One that allows compulsion and one that does not. One of the
> > other Aes Sedai was berating Alanna for not using the weave that
> > allowed one to compel the warder which was how it came out that she
> > tried and couldn't.
I *think* you are thinking of the Asha'man wifebond. The version used on
the wives does not have a thread of compulsion. The one used on the
enslaved Aes Sedai does.
The Aes Sedai warder bond always contains the ability to compel the
warder's obedience, although I wonder to what degree. Myrelle's use of
it Lan seems to indicate that it is tricky, and must be finessed just
so, or else the warder might figure out what is being attempted on him
and not comply.
> Kiruna berated Alanna in arrogant ignorance. Assuming that
> there was no way that Rand could not possibly bend to Aes
> Sedai methods and sense. Alanna rather smugly points this
> to the shock of Kiruna and Bera and the chagrin of Faeldrin
> and Seonid who seem to have have already been round that
> particular stump with Alanna.
>
> I find it particularly interesting that it is the Greens who show
> incredible outrage over any others bending or breaking of the
> rules involving a bond and yet seem not only the most willing to
> break these rules but manipulate the bond past what most sisters
> seem to consider decent.
Hmmm.
I wonder what you mean by that. We have -only- seen one Aes Sedai aside
from Alanna actually try to use the coercive aspect of the bond, that
being Myrelle. And she had her own altruistic motives for doing so.
Meanwhile, we did see Kiruna and Bera berate (heh) Alanna for not trying
to compel Rand, but in the same breath they acknowlege that doing so
would be an atrocious breach of ethics, as bad as taking him
involuntarily in the first place.
I'm not sure that the rather unprecedented situation of a somewhat
unstable Green Aes Sedai trying to implant her hooks into the Dragon
Reborn shows a mass willingness on the parts of the Green Ajah to wield
their warders like marionettes.
(I'm not condoning what Alanna did, btw).
Christine Dewar
<snip rest>
Lord of Chaos, Chapter 49, page 873 US trade papberback:
"If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in that
commanding voice, "why, by the Light most holy, have you not used the
bond to bend him to your will? Compared to the other, that is only
slapping his wrist."
Now, I may have misinterprested this passage but it can be read to
suggest there is more than one way for an Aes Sedai to bond a man as
well. Where do the books say otherwise?
Christine
Richard Boye'
>
> "Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
> news:3B1ABC...@webspan.net...
> > John Hamby wrote:
> > >
> > > Christine Dewar wrote:
> > >
> > > > I seem to recall a comment to the extent that there are two bonding
> > > > weaves. One that allows compulsion and one that does not. One of the
> > > > other Aes Sedai was berating Alanna for not using the weave that
> > > > allowed one to compel the warder which was how it came out that she
> > > > tried and couldn't.
> >
> > I *think* you are thinking of the Asha'man wifebond. The version used on
> > the wives does not have a thread of compulsion. The one used on the
> > enslaved Aes Sedai does.
> <snip rest>
>
> Lord of Chaos, Chapter 49, page 873 US trade papberback:
> "If you had to bond a man without asking him," Kiruna demanded in that
> commanding voice, "why, by the Light most holy, have you not used the
> bond to bend him to your will? Compared to the other, that is only
> slapping his wrist."
>
> Now, I may have misinterprested this passage but it can be read to
> suggest there is more than one way for an Aes Sedai to bond a man as
> well. Where do the books say otherwise?
Ah.
I'm fairly sure that the "other" Kiruna is referring to is not another
type of bonding, but bonding a man against his will in the first place,
which is how she started the sentence.
In other words, "Alanna, if you are going to fuck up and bond him
against his will, you might as well compel him, since you've already
violated him in a more invasive way by bonding him involuntarily."
Christine Dewar
"Richard Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
news:3B1ADD...@webspan.net...
Upon re-reading, I agree with this assessment. I think I just read it
a bit too fast the first time.
Christine
Rouk
> Not to mention Birgitte getting horny when Elayne and Rand go unf unf
> unf.
Or the shared drunkness.
I remember Elayne being drunk because Birgitte was.