What is Avendesora?
Prescient
This is one of those little things that's been bugging me for a while.
What exactly IS Avendesora? Let's see, I know it's the tree of life and
doesn't give seeds. This means it's some kind of immortal tree. But
what is its significance? I'm re-reading the WOT again, but I'm only
part way through TEotW so far. I'm hoping maybe I missed some reference
to what it is, or maybe it just wasn't explained yet. If not, I think
it might have some significance in that singing ceremony Rand saw in
Rhuidean. What significance that is, I'm not sure. I'm just putting some
of my ideas out here. I checked the updated FAQ by Pam Korda and didn't
even see any references to it. I was hoping maybe someone else out there
could enlighten me a little. An email response along with a posting
would
be appriciated, as I don't know how often I can make it to the NG.
Hmmmm... I wonder what would happen if an Ogier tree singer tried
to craft something from Avendesora? That would be interesting!
--
"Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;..."
Edgar Allen Poe, The Raven
kfi...@enter.net
Keith Fiske
John S. Novak, III
>This is one of those little things that's been bugging me for a while.
>What exactly IS Avendesora? Let's see, I know it's the tree of life and
>doesn't give seeds. This means it's some kind of immortal tree. But
>what is its significance?
It's just a nice tree that used to be very common in the Age of
Legends that is now nearly extinct. One tree and one or two known
saplings exist.
Aside from its power as a symbol, and being mixed up in our own
legends (probably as a mixture of Yggdrasil, the Tree of Knowledge,
and the tre under which the Buddha sat and meditated) it probably
isn't significant. It doesn't, for instance, have any wondrous powers
we know of.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cris.com
The Humblest Man on the Net
Luke
Prescient <kfi...@enter.net> wrote:
>This is one of those little things that's been bugging me for a while.
>What exactly IS Avendesora? Let's see, I know it's the tree of life and
>doesn't give seeds. This means it's some kind of immortal tree. But
>what is its significance? I'm re-reading the WOT again, but I'm only
>part way through TEotW so far. I'm hoping maybe I missed some reference
>to what it is, or maybe it just wasn't explained yet. If not, I think
>it might have some significance in that singing ceremony Rand saw in
>Rhuidean. What significance that is, I'm not sure. I'm just putting some
>of my ideas out here. I checked the updated FAQ by Pam Korda and didn't
>even see any references to it. I was hoping maybe someone else out there
>could enlighten me a little. An email response along with a posting
>would
>be appriciated, as I don't know how often I can make it to the NG.
>Hmmmm... I wonder what would happen if an Ogier tree singer tried
>to craft something from Avendesora? That would be interesting!
>--
>"Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing
> Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;..."
>Edgar Allen Poe, The Raven
> kfi...@enter.net
> Keith Fiske
This is just jordans play on The White tree of Gondor in the LOrd of
the Rings by JRR Tolkien. The same theme was in Stephen Donaldsons
Thomas Covenant stories.
Donald S. Crankshaw
John S. Novak, III wrote:
>
> Aside from its power as a symbol, and being mixed up in our own
> legends (probably as a mixture of Yggdrasil, the Tree of Knowledge,
> and the tre under which the Buddha sat and meditated) it probably
> isn't significant. It doesn't, for instance, have any wondrous powers
> we know of.
>
Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
anyway?
And it does seem to have some sort of calming influence on those who sit
under it.
Sincerely,
Donald S. Crankshaw
Kurt Montandon
"Donald S. Crankshaw" <dsc...@mit.edu> wrote:
>John S. Novak, III wrote:
>>
>> Aside from its power as a symbol, and being mixed up in our own
>> legends (probably as a mixture of Yggdrasil, the Tree of Knowledge,
>> and the tre under which the Buddha sat and meditated) it probably
>> isn't significant. It doesn't, for instance, have any wondrous powers
>> we know of.
>>
>Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
>he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
>anyway? ^^^^^^^^^
On this group?
Ha!
TINC.
--
Kurt Montandon
"Excuse me while I change into something more formidable."
www.geocities.com/Area51/2747/index.html
www.geocities.com/Area51/2747/GroupFaq.htm - rasfwrj FAQ
Christian R. Conrad
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:11:26 -0500,
"Donald S. Crankshaw" <dsc...@mit.edu> said:
[ S N I P John S. Novak, III on Avendesora ]
> Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
> he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
> anyway?
A _week_?!?
I have this vague recollection (no books...!) of Rand entering the
"Forest-of-glass-pillars" *'Angreal at the same time as Mat goes to
*'finn-land? So the time Rand spends watching the past is the same
as Mat spends talking with the *'finn, I mean. And I don't recall
Rand dying of thirst in there -- nor relieving himself on the ground...
Wherefore I always supposed Mat had been strung up only (more-or-less)
just before Rand came out and found him -- Rand reviving Mat being akin
to what emergency medics are doing now, really.
I'd appreciate a rough time frame, and perhaps some keywords
to narrow it down, for a DN search of this debate.
Thanks in advance,
Christian R. Conrad
======================================================================
Inventor of the "Verin is OK, she just reads minds" theory,
Proud and sole owner of all opinions (except quotes) expressed above!
Ian Ring
Donald S. Crankshaw wrote:
> Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
> he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
> anyway?
Since I was the only one arguing that Mat had actually hanged there for
a week, as opposed to there being some sort of time distortion inherent
to Rhuidean, and since I eventually caved in, I would say the concensus
is that the tree played no special role in Mat's apparent resurection.
Which leads to the following odd summary of the event, illustrating the
dangers of over-analyzing the Wot:
After 3,000 years of searching, the legendary Tree of Life is found.
Somebody immediately gets hanged in it.
Said someone is resurected.
Tree of Life has nothing to do with it.
Thomas Buck
Christian R. Conrad wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:11:26 -0500,
> "Donald S. Crankshaw" <dsc...@mit.edu> said:
>
> [ S N I P John S. Novak, III on Avendesora ]
>
> > he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
> > anyway?
>
>
> I have this vague recollection (no books...!) of Rand entering the
> "Forest-of-glass-pillars" *'Angreal at the same time as Mat goes to
> *'finn-land? So the time Rand spends watching the past is the same
> as Mat spends talking with the *'finn, I mean. And I don't recall
> Rand dying of thirst in there -- nor relieving himself on the ground...
>
> Wherefore I always supposed Mat had been strung up only (more-or-less)
> just before Rand came out and found him -- Rand reviving Mat being akin
> to what emergency medics are doing now, really.
>
> I'd appreciate a rough time frame, and perhaps some keywords
> to narrow it down, for a DN search of this debate.
I have no books either, but I remember Moir. saying that Rand
and Mat have been 7 days in Rhuidean. Rand is really astonished
about that and mourns about the time he has lost for gathering
the clan-chiefs. So we can clearly state that the use of the
pillar-*-Angreal is connected with some substantial time-mixing.
(I blelieve it is also stated that the time is different for
every man how long he is in Rhuidean, but that a few days are
not uncommon).
With Mats visit in *finn-land it is different, though we have
only the Doorway-Ter-Angreal in Tear to compare it with. There
we have no time-mixing on a large scale, though I would believe
that there is one of a few minutes up to maybe one hour. There
isn't anyone missing for a few days and suddenly reappearing from
*finn-land. But as I said, it's a different doorway to a different
land, so there is a possibility that Mat has been for 7 days in
the country of the foxes.
To add my own believe to the origial question "What is Avendesora?":
From Rands "mind-visit" in the AoL we know that these "Chora-Trees"
(hope I remember the AoL-name correctly) where very common, though
also there apreciated. The people of AoL couldn't imagine a city
without Chora-Trees. I think this wouldn't be the case if it was
just a normal tree (wich tend to grow in some places and don't in
others).
Thomas
Steve Monahan
christia...@hedengren.fi (Christian R. Conrad) wrote:
>On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:11:26 -0500,
>"Donald S. Crankshaw" <dsc...@mit.edu> said:
> [ S N I P John S. Novak, III on Avendesora ]
>> Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
>> he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
>> anyway?
>A _week_?!?
>I have this vague recollection (no books...!) of Rand entering the
>"Forest-of-glass-pillars" *'Angreal at the same time as Mat goes to
>*'finn-land? So the time Rand spends watching the past is the same
>as Mat spends talking with the *'finn, I mean. And I don't recall
>Rand dying of thirst in there -- nor relieving himself on the ground...
>Wherefore I always supposed Mat had been strung up only (more-or-less)
>just before Rand came out and found him -- Rand reviving Mat being akin
>to what emergency medics are doing now, really.
>I'd appreciate a rough time frame, and perhaps some keywords
>to narrow it down, for a DN search of this debate.
Check out the dialogue between Rand, Lan & to WO's upon his return. He
was shocked to realize he'd been in there for six days (IIRC).
Steve
"The law, in it's majestic equality, forbids
the rich as well as the poor to sleep under
bridges, to beg on the streets, and to steal
bread." [Anatole France]
Karl-Johan Noren
In <3309B7...@negia.net>,
Ian Ring <ia...@negia.net> wrote:
> Donald S. Crankshaw wrote:
>
>
> > Unless, of course, it kept Mat alive for the week he hung from it. If
> > he did hang from it for a week. What was the consensus of that debate,
> > anyway?
>
> Since I was the only one arguing that Mat had actually hanged there for
> a week, as opposed to there being some sort of time distortion inherent
> to Rhuidean, and since I eventually caved in, I would say the concensus
> is that the tree played no special role in Mat's apparent resurection.
That need not be the case. There's a difference between
saying that Mat hung on the tree for a week and was
resurrected thanks to it, and saying that he didn't hang on
the tree for a week.
> Which leads to the following odd summary of the event, illustrating the
> dangers of over-analyzing the Wot:
>
> After 3,000 years of searching, the legendary Tree of Life is found.
> Somebody immediately gets hanged in it.
> Said someone is resurected.
> Tree of Life has nothing to do with it.
Can you be sure about that?
--
Karl-Johan "Gareth Bryne" Norén (Noren with acute e)
k-j-...@dsv.su.se -- http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Aaron Bergman
In article <5edgmo$s...@chronicle.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S.
Novak, III) wrote:
:
:JMS's example was Sheridan's trip to Khaz, er, Z'Ha'Dum, and his leap
:over the brink. Apparently, on the B5 newsgroups, lots of people were
:jumping up and down comparing that to Gandalf's fight with the Balrgo
:and subsequent plunge into the chasm. Well, yeah, sure.
It isn't just that. People have been saying for god knows how long that B5
is just LOTR with the serial numbers filed off. It's a great way to anger
JMS.
:The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
:per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
:under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
There's a bit of Odin in there, too, although I'm sure KJN will correct me
if I'm wrong.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://pantheon.yale.edu/~abergman/>
Smoke a cigarette. Slit your throat. Same concept.
John S. Novak, III
>This is just jordans play on The White tree of Gondor in the LOrd of
>the Rings by JRR Tolkien. The same theme was in Stephen Donaldsons
>Thomas Covenant stories.
I am now moved to paraphrase some commentary from JMS,
writer/producer of Babylon 5.
SF fans never cease to amaze me. On the one hand, they read so
friggin' much, that they'll spot just about any similarity between a
symbol in one story, and a symbol in another story written twenty or
thirty years ago. But on the other hand, some of them can be so
completely blind to the _real_ sources of the symbolism that my mind
is just blown.
JMS's example was Sheridan's trip to Khaz, er, Z'Ha'Dum, and his leap
over the brink. Apparently, on the B5 newsgroups, lots of people were
jumping up and down comparing that to Gandalf's fight with the Balrgo
and subsequent plunge into the chasm. Well, yeah, sure. There are
similarities there, but that's not the ultimate source of the symbol
by far. JMS claims to have been going for the Orpheus into Hades
symbolism. (I personally found more in common with Inferno, of the
Divine Comedy.)
Likewise, we see the same thing above. Yeah, sure, Jordan's
Avendesora bears a resemblance to the White Tree of Gondor, but fer
cryin' out loud, that's not the ultimate source of the symbol.
The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
--
Michael Kozlowski
In article <5edgmo$s...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>SF fans never cease to amaze me. On the one hand, they read so
>friggin' much, that they'll spot just about any similarity between a
>symbol in one story, and a symbol in another story written twenty or
>thirty years ago. But on the other hand, some of them can be so
>completely blind to the _real_ sources of the symbolism that my mind
>is just blown.
One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
spot the allusions. This fact was cruelly pointed out to me in my current
Mythology class. This class is trivial, in the sense that anyone who's
every encountered Greek mythology in any form could take the final and get
at least a B. Nevertheless, some of my fellow classmates are still
perplexed by the material, and quite clearly have only recently heard of
Greece.
>The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
>per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
>under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
What about Yggrdrasil?
--
Michael Kozlowski mkoz...@ssc.wisc.edu
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/index.html
"Weasels, weasels everywhere; Nor any drop to drink!"
John S. Novak, III
>One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
>that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
>spot the allusions.
Yeah, but given the amount of SF these people read, you'd think they
might occasionally read something _else_. I mean, it's hardly a
stretch from being interested in fantasy lit to being interested in
old legends.
Or am I tragically overestimating people again?
>>The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
>>per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
>>under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
>What about Yggrdrasil?
I mentioned that in an earlier post, but then reconsidered. Yeah, Ygg
is a big ol' tree, but I really don't see any parallels between Ygg
and the Tree of Life, other than that they're both trees.
I'm sure Karl-Johan will jump in any minute now to point some out for
me.
Kurt Montandon
mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
>In article <5edgmo$s...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
>John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>>SF fans never cease to amaze me. On the one hand, they read so
>>friggin' much, that they'll spot just about any similarity between a
>>symbol in one story, and a symbol in another story written twenty or
>>thirty years ago. But on the other hand, some of them can be so
>>completely blind to the _real_ sources of the symbolism that my mind
>>is just blown.
>One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
>that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
>spot the allusions.
This can be held accountable to the fact that most people, in general,
don't realize that more than just Shakespeare and the Bible were
written before the Nineteenth Century. Ask your average person on the
streets (or average HS junior/senior) to name three pre-19th century
authors, or books, other than the ones mentioned above, and you'll
probably get a blank stare.
"Cicero _who_?"
ObSheesh: Sheesh.
John S. Novak, III
>It isn't just that. People have been saying for god knows how long that B5
>is just LOTR with the serial numbers filed off. It's a great way to anger
>JMS.
Well after the stunningly anticlimactic resolution to the war, he
pretty much deserves it...
>:The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
>:per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
>:under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
>There's a bit of Odin in there, too, although I'm sure KJN will correct me
>if I'm wrong.
Oh, duh, how did I manage to forget about Odin hanging from Yggdrasil?
Damn, I knew I wanted to put that in there, but somehow managed to
convince myself to take it out.
John S. Novak, III
Michael Kozlowski
In article <330c6af1...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Jeff Vinocur <chi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[pre-19th century literature]
>Really obvious ones you should absolute have learned in
>school, at least in the US.
>1. Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>2. Dante [I refuse to make a fool of myself with the last
>name], Divine Comedy
>3. Hamurabi, Code of Laws
Yeah, but I don't think Paine and Hammurapi count as literature.
Oh, and Dante's last name is Alighieri. (I like posting easily misspelled
names without looking them up. Adds excitement to my life.)
Aaron Bergman
In article <5edthd$k...@chronicle.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S.
Novak, III) wrote:
[B5]
:Well after the stunningly anticlimactic resolution to the war, he
:pretty much deserves it...
And JMS can't even let it sit that most people would end on the war; he
has to insert quotes like "you know, most people don't think about what
happens after the war is over, but it's tough" etc. Subtletly is often
vacant from this man's vocabulary, but I still love the show (most of the
time).
As for the resolution of the war, it would have been impressive if he
could have ended it without an anticlimax. Not impossible, but very
difficult. As for the resolution
Spoilers for the end of the shadow war in B5:
As a number of people mentioned in various groups, it is interesting that
JMS really peeled away all the shades of gray for the resolution. There
was really no choice, so to speak. He made it quite obvious by the end
that they were both big bad evil nasty types. It really made something
fairly interesting into something rather boring.
Brian D. Ritchie
>>One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
>>that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
>>spot the allusions.
>Yeah, but given the amount of SF these people read, you'd think they
>might occasionally read something _else_. I mean, it's hardly a
>stretch from being interested in fantasy lit to being interested in
>old legends.
>Or am I tragically overestimating people again?
Well, just assuming they read anything else might be a stretch for a lot
of SF fans. I think the problem with mythology is that people don't
overcome the intellectual inertia to read the classics when they can just
read some new SF instead. It certainly isn't material that is taught with
great regularity, except in college. The classics need better advertising
if more people are going to read them.
--
Brian Ritchie
br...@prism.gatech.edu
*bunnyTshens*
Avendesora is a pretty flower that smells bad.
--Tshen
Qodaxti Institute, 87th stratum
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5edp9h$2...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) writes:
>
> >One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
> >that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
> >spot the allusions.
>
> Yeah, but given the amount of SF these people read, you'd think they
> might occasionally read something _else_. I mean, it's hardly a
> stretch from being interested in fantasy lit to being interested in
> old legends.
I think there's two troubles here. Either they only read
some third-hand account of the myth and miss out a lot of
things, or they don't have patience enough to sort out the
original language (or a decent translation of it).
> Or am I tragically overestimating people again?
Probably. I'm reminded of that discussion of romances some
time ago over at rasfw, where all sorts of prejudices flew
up.
[ Avendesora ]
> >>The source is the biblical Tree of Knowledge (turned inside out, as
> >>per normal) with a little bit of the legend of the Buddha meditating
> >>under a tree before gaining enlightenment.
>
> >What about Yggrdrasil?
>
> I mentioned that in an earlier post, but then reconsidered. Yeah, Ygg
> is a big ol' tree, but I really don't see any parallels between Ygg
> and the Tree of Life, other than that they're both trees.
Mat hang from Avendesora as a price for knowledge. Oden hang
from Yggdrasil as a price for knowledge.
Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows
For nine long nights,
Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odhinn,
Offered, myself to myself
The wisest know not from whence spring
The roots of that ancient rood
They gave me no bread,
They gave me no mead,
I looked down;
with a loud cry
I took up runes;
from that tree I fell.
(From Havamal: http://www.personal.u-net.com/~midgard/edda.htm )
It's also quite clear that Avendesora constituted the center
of some mystic/cult/magical place, just as Yggdrasil (OTOH,
there's thirteen on the dozen of holy trees...)
ObNitpick: Ygg is a nome de guerre for Oden, so using it as
an abbreviation for Yggdrasil can lead to confusion.
> I'm sure Karl-Johan will jump in any minute now to point some out for
> me.
I wondered how long it would take for my name to get
mentioned :-)
Dave Rothgery
On 20 Feb 1997, Michael Kozlowski wrote:
>In article <5eeaf8$r...@acmey.gatech.edu>,
>Brian D. Ritchie <br...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>>It [Classical Literature] certainly isn't material that is taught with
>>great regularity, except in college.
>
>You were doing good, until you got to that bit about college. As it
>happens, intro lit courses are taught using almost exclusively 20th
>century "literature." Stuff like Toni Morrison, who has to be one of the
>most incredibly over-rated writers I've ever read.
>
It's okay to say she's terrible. It really is. Of course, I'm
extrapolating from one datapoint I was forced to read in high school, but
there are some writers that one reads once and never again.
Of course, I really like WPI's attitude tworad humanities courses (for
science and engineering majors) -- take 5 classes in any liberal arts
field, and write a 20-40 page research paper on one topic and you're done.
No cheesy mandatory freshman English. Of course, it's probably the only
way I could take a lot of history, which I enjoy, but don't have the time
to minor in.
Dave Rothgery dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, historians can."
-Samuel Butler
John S. Novak, III
>:Well after the stunningly anticlimactic resolution to the war, he
>:pretty much deserves it...
>As for the resolution of the war, it would have been impressive if he
>could have ended it without an anticlimax. Not impossible, but very
>difficult.
Well, yeah. I still think it's one of the two best hours of
television on, in any given week. And the end even made sense from an
intellectual standpoint, it was just lame in terms of drama.
I _really_ realized this in trying to explain it to someone who had
missed the last two episodes.
>Spoilers for the end of the shadow war in B5:
>As a number of people mentioned in various groups, it is interesting that
>JMS really peeled away all the shades of gray for the resolution. There
>was really no choice, so to speak. He made it quite obvious by the end
>that they were both big bad evil nasty types. It really made something
>fairly interesting into something rather boring.
If you did not see the general shape of the resolution coming for
least the past six months or so, then you haven't been paying much
attention. It has been _abundantly clear_ that JMS was setting us up
for an ending fo this type since season three. The Shadows aren't
completely evil and the Vorlons aren't completely good. They're
neither, in fact.
It has been _abundantly clear_ that JMS has been setting us for a
grand finale (to the Shadow War, at least) wherein his Golden Boy (ie,
Sheridan) gets to save the galaxy by basically telling off God and
organized religion in one swell foop. It was transparently obvious,
to me anyway, what JMS's real goal was.
To his credit, he managed to keep it interesting along the way, and
gave one of the more interesting "Law vs Chaos" explanations of the
universe that I've ever seen. Maybe I haven't read far enough into my
growing collection of Moorcock, yet, but that always bugged e about
Moorcock-- no explanation was ever given for the Lords of Chaos and
the Lords of Law.
For that alone, JMS gets top honors.
Even if he was a clear as distilled water for the past year or so.
Personally, I was expecting Sheridan to let the Shadows and the
Vorlons annihilate each other, or come close enough that his own fleet
could finish th job. I think a combination theocide/divine suicide
would have saved JMS at least three years of therapy...
John S. Novak, III
>> I mentioned that in an earlier post, but then reconsidered. Yeah, Ygg
>> is a big ol' tree, but I really don't see any parallels between Ygg
>> and the Tree of Life, other than that they're both trees.
>Mat hang from Avendesora as a price for knowledge. Oden hang
>from Yggdrasil as a price for knowledge.
Damn, damn, damn. I _knew_ that, I just forgot about it.
I think it's because I tucked that allusion away under Mat/Odin,
rather than Avendesora/Yggdrasil, in my head.
> Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows
> For nine long nights,
> Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odhinn,
> Offered, myself to myself
> The wisest know not from whence spring
> The roots of that ancient rood
Doesn't rhyme.
>It's also quite clear that Avendesora constituted the center
>of some mystic/cult/magical place, just as Yggdrasil (OTOH,
>there's thirteen on the dozen of holy trees...)
I think you're reaching, here.
Where, exactly, do we get anything that indicates Avendesora was
anything other than a common, pleasant plant in the Age of Legends?
Where, exactly, do we see it as the center of a mystic cult of any
sort? Of what is it the center, except Rhuidean?
Michael Kozlowski
>It [Classical Literature] certainly isn't material that is taught with
>great regularity, except in college.
You were doing good, until you got to that bit about college. As it
happens, intro lit courses are taught using almost exclusively 20th
century "literature." Stuff like Toni Morrison, who has to be one of the
most incredibly over-rated writers I've ever read.
--
Michael Steeves
Displaying a firm grasp of the obvious,
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
} mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) writes:
} >One might suspect that this is because a lot of SF fans -- and, for
} >that matter, people in general -- don't have the requisite background to
} >spot the allusions.
}
} Yeah, but given the amount of SF these people read, you'd think they
} might occasionally read something _else_. I mean, it's hardly a
} stretch from being interested in fantasy lit to being interested in
} old legends.
}
Actually, I came to SF/Fantasy through mythology. I can remember
having, in my youth, gone through every last book in the Greek and
Norse mythology section, and it was this interest that helped
convince my (pa)rents to buy me my set of encyclopedias (encyclopeidiae?).
I had fun my sophomore year in High School, when we did Greek
myths.
"Did you read the book last night?"
"No."
"So you don't know who Apollo is, then."
"Aside from the fact that he's an archer, and the Sun God, what else
do you want to know?"
-darkelf
--
Mike Steeves mste...@tiac.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Death before dishonor / Drugs before lunch
-Aspen Gun and Drug Club
Brian D. Ritchie
Michael Kozlowski <mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu> wrote:
>Brian D. Ritchie <br...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>It [Classical Literature] certainly isn't material that is taught with
>>great regularity, except in college.
>You were doing good, until you got to that bit about college. As it
>happens, intro lit courses are taught using almost exclusively 20th
>century "literature." Stuff like Toni Morrison, who has to be one of the
>most incredibly over-rated writers I've ever read.
Well, I was actually referring to the fact that most universities do offer
courses covering the Classics. Intro lit courses could probably be taught
with comic books for all most people learn from them.
--
Brian Ritchie
br...@prism.gatech.edu
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5eg7qk$9...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >> I mentioned that in an earlier post, but then reconsidered. Yeah, Ygg
> >> is a big ol' tree, but I really don't see any parallels between Ygg
> >> and the Tree of Life, other than that they're both trees.
> >
> >Mat hang from Avendesora as a price for knowledge. Oden hang
> >from Yggdrasil as a price for knowledge.
>
> Damn, damn, damn. I _knew_ that, I just forgot about it.
> I think it's because I tucked that allusion away under Mat/Odin,
> rather than Avendesora/Yggdrasil, in my head.
Which actually makes a lot of sense, since the Mat-Oden one
is a lot stronger than the Avendesora-Yggdrasil one.
> > Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows
> > For nine long nights,
> > Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odhinn,
> > Offered, myself to myself
> > The wisest know not from whence spring
> > The roots of that ancient rood
>
> Doesn't rhyme.
Actually, it does. Just not at the end of the words.
D'uh!
> >It's also quite clear that Avendesora constituted the center
> >of some mystic/cult/magical place, just as Yggdrasil (OTOH,
> >there's thirteen on the dozen of holy trees...)
>
> I think you're reaching, here.
> Where, exactly, do we get anything that indicates Avendesora was
> anything other than a common, pleasant plant in the Age of Legends?
> Where, exactly, do we see it as the center of a mystic cult of any
> sort? Of what is it the center, except Rhuidean?
First, the name: the Tree of Life. Second the sense of peace
and/or well-being one feels under it. Third, the great
significance the Aiel place on it (Laman's sin and all
that). Fourth, the references to myths about it in
TGH(?). I'm pretty sure I can dredge up more from TSR and
TFoH, as well.
Rhuidean is also not some standard place - it can easily be
argued as being _the_ center of the Aiel.
Aaron Bergman
In article <5eg7i8$8...@chronicle.concentric.net>, J...@cris.com (John S.
Novak, III) wrote:
:>Spoilers for the end of the shadow war in B5:
:If you did not see the general shape of the resolution coming for
:least the past six months or so, then you haven't been paying much
:attention. It has been _abundantly clear_ that JMS was setting us up
:for an ending fo this type since season three. The Shadows aren't
:completely evil and the Vorlons aren't completely good. They're
:neither, in fact.
Of course. He could have made it a lot less clear cut, however.
:
:It has been _abundantly clear_ that JMS has been setting us for a
:grand finale (to the Shadow War, at least) wherein his Golden Boy (ie,
:Sheridan) gets to save the galaxy by basically telling off God and
:organized religion in one swell foop. It was transparently obvious,
:to me anyway, what JMS's real goal was.
I found the subtle anit-religious undertones rather amusing. People keep
saying that B5 is one of the more respectful shows regarding religion, but
thematically it is very different.
:
:To his credit, he managed to keep it interesting along the way, and
:gave one of the more interesting "Law vs Chaos" explanations of the
:universe that I've ever seen. Maybe I haven't read far enough into my
:growing collection of Moorcock, yet, but that always bugged e about
:Moorcock-- no explanation was ever given for the Lords of Chaos and
:the Lords of Law.
I've never read Moorcock, but it reminded me most of Louise Cooper's Time
Master trilogy. Of course in that book, the chaos people aren't as evil as
the Shadows.
:
:For that alone, JMS gets top honors.
The ride was certainly fun, but the resolution left me a bit empty. Once I
get past the atheist undertones, there's not much there. JMS said the show
was about patricide, but it really wasn't as neither the Shadows or
Vorlons were developed well enough as father figures. I think killing Kosh
was a mistake. It made it too clear cut. Kosh was the father figure and by
killing him, JMS left the Vorlons with nothing good. The planetkillers
merely drove home the point with JMS's characteristic lack of subtlety.
The Shadows were never really parent figures at all. They were just
another example of how people should actually read some books on evolution
before they write about it.
It certainly won't ruin the show for me, but I think it could have been
done much better. The more I think about it, the more a confrontation
between Sheridan and Kosh seems like a better finale than what we got.
Ah well. It's not like I'm going to stop watching the show.
Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the other best hour of TV?
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <5ecnld$b...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
>>I have this vague recollection (no books...!) of Rand entering the
>>"Forest-of-glass-pillars" *'Angreal at the same time as Mat goes to
>>*'finn-land? So the time Rand spends watching the past is the same
>>as Mat spends talking with the *'finn, I mean. And I don't recall
>>Rand dying of thirst in there -- nor relieving himself on the ground...
>>Wherefore I always supposed Mat had been strung up only (more-or-less)
>>just before Rand came out and found him -- Rand reviving Mat being akin
>>to what emergency medics are doing now, really.
>>I'd appreciate a rough time frame, and perhaps some keywords
>>to narrow it down, for a DN search of this debate.
>Check out the dialogue between Rand, Lan & to WO's upon his return. He
>was shocked to realize he'd been in there for six days (IIRC).
Six days, Outside World Time. This does not necessarily correspond to six
days, Glass Columns Time or six days, Finnland Time. The fact that Rand
and Mat didn't need to deal with niceties like mentioned above seem to
indicate that at least *parts* of Rhuidean, if not all of Rhuidean, don't
run at the same time rate as the outside world.
And even if it *does*, Mat was not necessarily hanging on the tree for any
length of time.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
GarrisElkins
Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
> Rhuidean is also not some standard place - it can easily be
> argued as being _the_ center of the Aiel.
Speaking of Rhuidean I think that Rand should use the city as Homebase.
After what happened to Harad Fel he should move the Institute and the
Dragons Legion there and all other such things as his "Dragon's Hold".
The Aes Sedai have Tar Valon and as we know about what happens when he's
gone too long (ie. Cairhien) he really needs something to fall back on.
The only way to do that is to start from scratch and Rhuidean is the
place.
David W. Elkins (not GarrisElkins)
Steve Monahan
alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Andrea Lynn Leistra) wrote:
>In article <5ecnld$b...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
>Steve Monahan <smon...@cris.com> wrote:
>>christia...@hedengren.fi (Christian R. Conrad) wrote:
>>>I have this vague recollection (no books...!) of Rand entering the
>>>"Forest-of-glass-pillars" *'Angreal at the same time as Mat goes to
>>>*'finn-land? So the time Rand spends watching the past is the same
>>>as Mat spends talking with the *'finn, I mean. And I don't recall
>>>Rand dying of thirst in there -- nor relieving himself on the ground...
>>>Wherefore I always supposed Mat had been strung up only (more-or-less)
>>>just before Rand came out and found him -- Rand reviving Mat being akin
>>>to what emergency medics are doing now, really.
>>>I'd appreciate a rough time frame, and perhaps some keywords
>>>to narrow it down, for a DN search of this debate.
>>Check out the dialogue between Rand, Lan & to WO's upon his return. He
>>was shocked to realize he'd been in there for six days (IIRC).
>Six days, Outside World Time. This does not necessarily correspond to six
>days, Glass Columns Time or six days, Finnland Time. The fact that Rand
>and Mat didn't need to deal with niceties like mentioned above seem to
>indicate that at least *parts* of Rhuidean, if not all of Rhuidean, don't
>run at the same time rate as the outside world.
Good point, probably had something to do with the wards, etc. around
Rhuiean that Rand and Asmo shattered during their fight. Or, more
likely just the attributes of the ter'angreal Rand was in & finnland
for Mat.
That's what I get for being too literal, I obviously didn't "what if"
that sequence properly.
>And even if it *does*, Mat was not necessarily hanging on the tree for any
>length of time.
Also true. :^P
---
Steve
Callandor, (n): "a sword with the stopping power
of a sex-crazed rhinocerous on bad acid"
Bill Garrett
mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
}
} You were doing good, until you got to that bit about college. As it
} happens, intro lit courses are taught using almost exclusively 20th
} century "literature." Stuff like Toni Morrison, who has to be one of the
} most incredibly over-rated writers I've ever read.
If you want an interesting book about Black America, read Piri
Thomas, "Down These Mean Streets". It's an autobiography about
growing up as a street punk in Harlem in the 1950s.
"Whether you're right or wrong, as long as you're strong,
you're right." Words to live by.
--
Bill Garrett I don't suffer from insanity;
Opinions mine, not Apple's. I enjoy every minute of it!
Dave Rothgery
On 20 Feb 1997, Michael Kozlowski wrote:
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.95q.97021...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>,
>Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>Of course, I really like WPI's attitude tworad humanities courses (for
>>science and engineering majors) -- take 5 classes in any liberal arts
>>field, and write a 20-40 page research paper on one topic and you're done.
>
>I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you. You see, I'm double-majoring in
>history, which gives me the right to pontificate snobbily about
>narrow-minded scientific types. (Or, from the other end, about
>scientifically-illiterate humanities types. Best of both worlds, really.)
>
I thought about it, but I wanted to have a reasonable chance to graduate
in four years.
Michael Kozlowski
>Of course, I really like WPI's attitude tworad humanities courses (for
>science and engineering majors) -- take 5 classes in any liberal arts
>field, and write a 20-40 page research paper on one topic and you're done.
I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you. You see, I'm double-majoring in
history, which gives me the right to pontificate snobbily about
narrow-minded scientific types. (Or, from the other end, about
scientifically-illiterate humanities types. Best of both worlds, really.)
--
John S. Novak, III
>:>Spoilers for the end of the shadow war in B5:
>I found the subtle anit-religious undertones rather amusing. People keep
>saying that B5 is one of the more respectful shows regarding religion, but
>thematically it is very different.
Yeah, same here.
The show has never been aprticularly respectful toward religions, only
respectful toward religious individuals, at times. But JMS _had_ to
walk that line. If even an appreciable number of his religious
characters were Bad People, then JMS would have gotten nuked in
certain segments.
This way, even though you and I don't consider any of this as being
particularly subtle, he keeps the real morons off his case and
probably laughs at them every night before he goes to sleep.
>I've never read Moorcock, but it reminded me most of Louise Cooper's Time
>Master trilogy. Of course in that book, the chaos people aren't as evil as
>the Shadows.
I've only read the first one of those. The other two are on my shelf.
>:For that alone, JMS gets top honors.
>The ride was certainly fun, but the resolution left me a bit empty. Once I
>get past the atheist undertones, there's not much there. JMS said the show
>was about patricide, but it really wasn't as neither the Shadows or
>Vorlons were developed well enough as father figures.
Sure they are.
Except that the parents are having a nasty, drag out, screaming and
kicking divorce, and are both willing to kill a few of their children
in order to make a point to the rest fo them.
>The Shadows were never really parent figures at all. They were just
>another example of how people should actually read some books on evolution
>before they write about it.
I gave him enough credit to not take the word 'evolution' in the
literal Darwinian sense of the word...
>Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the other best hour of TV?
Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
Flavio J. Carrillo
In <5eir1n$a...@chronicle.concentric.net> J...@cris.com (John S. Novak,
III) writes:
>Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
For high brow law type stuff, I highly recommend Law & Order.
Of course, I like to watch Friends, so I'm arguably brain damaged. ;)
Flavio Carrillo
Michael Kozlowski
In article <5eir1n$a...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>>Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the other best hour of TV?
>Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
Not by me you won't. It's a damn fine show. Maybe a bit high on the
melodrama and soap opera aspect, but still pretty good. It's the only
show that I make a point to watch every week. (Duckman would be on the
list, but it's not on until Saturday nights, when I'm usually doing
something better.)
Jon Travaglia
On 21 Feb 1997 00:42:31 GMT, J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III),
claimed they were told by the aliens that:
>In <abergman-200...@net162-150.student.yale.edu> aber...@pantheon.yale.edu (Aaron Bergman) writes:
>
>>:>Spoilers for the end of the shadow war in B5:
<Shuts eyes tightly>
<Peeks>
Poo, no spoilers :-)
>>Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the other best hour of TV?
>
>Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
>
Ha Ha
Jon Travaglia
"Oblivious to the season or the weather or the signs that said 'Keep Out',
Dick limped across the uplands and the downs, scattering flocks of
sheep before him and putting the fear of God into the corn circle makers."
Brian D. Ritchie
Jeff Vinocur <chi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 21 Feb 1997 03:35:20 GMT, flav...@ix.netcom.com(Flavio
>J. Carrillo ) wrote:
>:In <5eir1n$a...@chronicle.concentric.net> J...@cris.com (John S. Novak,
>:III) writes:
>:>Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
>:ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
>Your opinion is your opinion, but be aware that it is about
>as accurate as learning about outer space by watching Star
>Trek.
Well, I doubt many people watch ER for a crash course in medicine. Still,
I doubt ER makes up things quite like ST. Overall, I've heard it actually
id fairly accurate medically, once you allow for dramatic effects
necessary for TV.
--
Brian Ritchie
br...@prism.gatech.edu
John S. Novak, III
>> Where, exactly, do we get anything that indicates Avendesora was
>> anything other than a common, pleasant plant in the Age of Legends?
>> Where, exactly, do we see it as the center of a mystic cult of any
>> sort? Of what is it the center, except Rhuidean?
>First, the name: the Tree of Life.
Yeah, so? Why does this imply a cult?
> Second the sense of peace
>and/or well-being one feels under it.
First, I really don't make much of that at all. I think the two were
just glad to sit down after walking hrough a desert.
Second, why does this imply a cult?
>Third, the great
>significance the Aiel place on it (Laman's sin and all
>that).
The Aiel place the same emphasis on their veils and prohibitions
against swords.
> Fourth, the references to myths about it in
>TGH(?). I'm pretty sure I can dredge up more from TSR and
>TFoH, as well.
Cite, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
>Rhuidean is also not some standard place - it can easily be
>argued as being _the_ center of the Aiel.
How does this imply a cult?
The only people who go to Rhuidean are the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones,
and they know enough about the truth not to make a cult around it, eh?
Melanie Saw
chi...@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) wrote:
>:ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
>Your opinion is your opinion, but be aware that it is about
>as accurate as learning about outer space by watching Star
>Trek.
Really? A lot of the med students I know watch it..
Mel
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5eiqlc$9...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >> Where, exactly, do we get anything that indicates Avendesora was
> >> anything other than a common, pleasant plant in the Age of Legends?
> >> Where, exactly, do we see it as the center of a mystic cult of any
> >> sort? Of what is it the center, except Rhuidean?
> >
> >First, the name: the Tree of Life.
>
> Yeah, so? Why does this imply a cult?
You should choose your words with more care. What I used earlier
was:
"It's also quite clear that Avendesora constituted the center
of some mystic/cult/magical place, just as Yggdrasil (OTOH,
there's thirteen on the dozen of holy trees...)"
A cult != a cult place.
I also doubt that any plant called "the Tree of Life" with
lots of legends about it can be called "common". Sure, they
were plentiful in the AoL, but there's only one now.
> >Second the sense of peace and/or well-being one feels under it.
>
> First, I really don't make much of that at all. I think the two were
> just glad to sit down after walking hrough a desert.
Well, there's the Ghautam reference.
We also have Rand in [TSR, The Dedicated]: "Avendesora. A
chora tree. A city is a wilderness without choras."
> Second, why does this imply a cult?
A cult != a cult place.
> >Third, the great significance the Aiel place on it (Laman's sin and
> >all that).
>
> The Aiel place the same emphasis on their veils and prohibitions
> against swords.
Yes. They do. Both Avendesora, the sword prohibition, the
veils etc are direct traces back to the Aiel's origin as the
Da'shain.
> > Fourth, the references to myths about it in TGH(?). I'm pretty
> >sure I can dredge up more from TSR and TFoH, as well.
>
> Cite, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
From the glossaries (TSR & TFoH, at least), entry
_Avendesora_: "Mentioned in many stories and legends, which
give various locations"
Then there's the Ghoetam reference and the mention of "the
old stories were true" in [TSR, Rhuidean].
> >Rhuidean is also not some standard place - it can easily be
> >argued as being _the_ center of the Aiel.
>
> How does this imply a cult?
> The only people who go to Rhuidean are the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones,
> and they know enough about the truth not to make a cult around it, eh?
A cult != a cult place.
And even given that all the WOs and Clan Chiefs get to know
is the truth, they still have large similarities with what I
see as real-world cults. The emphasis of testings to become
worthy; the secret, hidden knowledge that must remain so.
There are large differences as well, but also similarities.
"Whoever lead among you must come to Rhuidean and learn
where we come from, and why you do not carry swords. Who
cannot learn, will not live." [TSR, The Road to the Spear]
Hawk
In article <5ej55o$5...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
Flavio J. Carrillo <flav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>For high brow law type stuff, I highly recommend Law & Order.
Uh, Flavio, you don't happen to watch X-Files as well, do you? So far you
happen to watch two of the three shows I watch on a regular basis.
!Peeve: A&E and their Law and Order reruns.
Peeve: The new episodes are on at 10 pm
Hawk
-Do not meddle in the affairs of hawks, for we are fond of raking with our
talons.
Scottina B Good
Ian Ring <ia...@negia.net> had this bit of wisdom to add:
<snip how long did Mat hang>
> Which leads to the following odd summary of the event, illustrating the
> dangers of over-analyzing the Wot:
>
> After 3,000 years of searching, the legendary Tree of Life is found.
>
> Somebody immediately gets hanged in it.
>
> Said someone is resurected.
>
> Tree of Life has nothing to do with it.
Of course not silly boy. It was *all* Rand.
<nudge> Dragon Reborn & all, you know.
Scottina
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
John S. Novak, III
In <33101c42...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> chi...@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) writes:
[On ER]
>Your opinion is your opinion, but be aware that it is about
>as accurate as learning about outer space by watching Star
>Trek.
Well no shit.
Or learning about medieval Europe by reading the Wheel of Time.
It's _fiction_.
Some fiction is designed to resemble reality. That's cool.
Other fiction is designed to set up interesting situations and reveal
something about the human heart. That's cool, too.
John S. Novak, III
>You should choose your words with more care. What I used earlier
>was:
So should you, since I can interpret your words several ways.
Please do not assume I am a mind reader. Or rather, please do not
assume I choose to read your mind...
>A cult != a cult place.
Oh, give me a fuckin' break.
No, a cult might not _be_ a cult place, but it's hard to have a cult
place without a frickin' cult, now isn't it?
(For best effect, read above in the same accent as Cleese in the Dead
Parrot sketch.)
>I also doubt that any plant called "the Tree of Life" with
>lots of legends about it can be called "common". Sure, they
>were plentiful in the AoL, but there's only one now.
>We also have Rand in [TSR, The Dedicated]: "Avendesora. A
>chora tree. A city is a wilderness without choras."
All right, fine. People liked chora trees.
How does this imply a cult _place_?
>> The Aiel place the same emphasis on their veils and prohibitions
>> against swords.
>Yes. They do. Both Avendesora, the sword prohibition, the
>veils etc are direct traces back to the Aiel's origin as the
>Da'shain.
So I guess you're now saying that the Aiel are the cult around which
the cult place is based? Fine. Evidence that the Aiel idolize the
tree to any degree?
Try to remember, before you go off about Laman's Sin, that these are
Aiel, and the whole thing was an affair of jih'e'toh, over an abused
gift. Not all silly sultural traits are cult-based.
>> > Fourth, the references to myths about it in TGH(?). I'm pretty
>> >sure I can dredge up more from TSR and TFoH, as well.
>>
>> Cite, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
>From the glossaries (TSR & TFoH, at least), entry
>_Avendesora_: "Mentioned in many stories and legends, which
>give various locations"
Yeah?
And?
>And even given that all the WOs and Clan Chiefs get to know
>is the truth, they still have large similarities with what I
>see as real-world cults.
You keep asserting this, but nothing you've mentioned so far convinces
me of a damned thing.
> The emphasis of testings to become
>worthy; the secret, hidden knowledge that must remain so.
But this really has nothing to do with the tree, per se.
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <5ein48$3f...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
Michael Kozlowski <mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu> wrote:
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.95q.97021...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU>,
>Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>>Of course, I really like WPI's attitude tworad humanities courses (for
>>science and engineering majors) -- take 5 classes in any liberal arts
>>field, and write a 20-40 page research paper on one topic and you're done.
>I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you. You see, I'm double-majoring in
>history, which gives me the right to pontificate snobbily about
>narrow-minded scientific types. (Or, from the other end, about
>scientifically-illiterate humanities types. Best of both worlds, really.)
In my experience, the latter tend to be more prevalent - or, at least,
are catered to more. There exist at Stanford classes such as 'Physics for
Poets' that allow the willfully scientifically ignorant to get through
Stanford, fulfulling a math and a natural science requirement, without so
much as seeing an integral. Humanities majors can take science classes
that no science major would ever take. Science majors, OTOH, take the
same classes in the humanities that the humanities majors do - in my
discussion section for Arthurian Literature last year, out of ~20
students, I was one of five non-English majors. One of the others was
also in physics.
I wonder how many 'narrow-minded scientific types' would choose to take
the humanities equivalent of 'Physics for Poets'. I know I wouldn't, but
one data point doesn't mean much.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5elkuj$e...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >I also doubt that any plant called "the Tree of Life" with
> >lots of legends about it can be called "common". Sure, they
> >were plentiful in the AoL, but there's only one now.
> >
> >We also have Rand in [TSR, The Dedicated]: "Avendesora. A
> >chora tree. A city is a wilderness without choras."
>
> All right, fine. People liked chora trees.
> How does this imply a cult _place_?
Again, check what I wrote the first time: "Avendesora
constituded the _center_ of some mystic/cult/magical place
[...]".
Now, you seems to have hanged up yourself on the word
"cult". Maybe we use it in different ways? Personally, I
don't place any especially strong religous connotations to
the word - my emphasis is on formalised ceremonies, secret
knowledge not given to non-members, testings to be proven
worthy as a member.
Good, scratch "cult" then. Do you want to claim that
Rhuidean _isn't_ a place of magical and/or mystical
properties (however much that can be in a world where magic
works)?
> >> The Aiel place the same emphasis on their veils and prohibitions
> >> against swords.
> >
> >Yes. They do. Both Avendesora, the sword prohibition, the
> >veils etc are direct traces back to the Aiel's origin as the
> >Da'shain.
>
> So I guess you're now saying that the Aiel are the cult around which
> the cult place is based? Fine. Evidence that the Aiel idolize the
> tree to any degree?
The current Aiel don't. But the Jenn _did_. And it was the
Jenn who placed and possibly built the testing ter'angreals
in the center of Rhuidean, and made Rhuidean a special place
in the Aiel culture.
What does matter here are that the Jenn quite deliberately
first placed Avendesora in (I'd say even _as_) the center of
their city, and then made that city a center of the Aiel
culture.
> >From the glossaries (TSR & TFoH, at least), entry
> >_Avendesora_: "Mentioned in many stories and legends, which
> >give various locations"
>
> Yeah?
> And?
Avendesora is a well-known entity of rather big mythical
status - just like the Tree of Knowledge, Yggdrasil in
Germanic mythology, and all the others special trees that
appear in myths just about everwhere in the world.
That it was common in the AoL doesn't really matter to this.
There's only one now, and it's a legendary item now.
> >And even given that all the WOs and Clan Chiefs get to know
> >is the truth, they still have large similarities with what I
> >see as real-world cults.
>
> You keep asserting this, but nothing you've mentioned so far convinces
> me of a damned thing.
As I said earlier, there are similarities, and there are
differences.
> > The emphasis of testings to become
> >worthy; the secret, hidden knowledge that must remain so.
>
> But this really has nothing to do with the tree, per se.
No. But it has to do with Rhuidean.
John S. Novak, III
>I wonder how many 'narrow-minded scientific types' would choose to take
>the humanities equivalent of 'Physics for Poets'. I know I wouldn't, but
>one data point doesn't mean much.
Anecdotally, more than you might expect, but far less than the number
of humanities geeks taking Rocks for Jocks (ie, Geology 101). Do
let's try to remember the ubiquitous existence of classes like
Clapping for Credit (ie, Music Appreciation) and the like.
Someone populates these courses.
Then there was the 300 level Eastern Religions course I took as a
junior, where the prof announced out of the blue that he would be
teaching on the general level of a 100 level class so that people
could fulfill their requirements easily.
It was at that point that I decided the only way to get a decent
education on that end of the academic world was to teach myself.
Dave Rothgery
On 22 Feb 1997, Andrea Lynn Leistra wrote:
>In article <5ein48$3f...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
>Michael Kozlowski <mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu> wrote:
>>Dave Rothgery <dave...@wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Of course, I really like WPI's attitude tworad humanities courses (for
>>>science and engineering majors) -- take 5 classes in any liberal arts
>>>field, and write a 20-40 page research paper on one topic and you're done.
>
>>I'm afraid I can't quite agree with you. You see, I'm double-majoring in
>>history, which gives me the right to pontificate snobbily about
>>narrow-minded scientific types. (Or, from the other end, about
>>scientifically-illiterate humanities types. Best of both worlds, really.)
>
>In my experience, the latter tend to be more prevalent - or, at least,
>are catered to more.
One of the advantages of being at a small engineering/science college.
There aren't any of the later to be catered to.
>There exist at Stanford classes such as 'Physics for
>Poets' that allow the willfully scientifically ignorant to get through
>Stanford, fulfulling a math and a natural science requirement, without so
>much as seeing an integral. Humanities majors can take science classes
>that no science major would ever take.
Hell, EEs and CSs here don't get credit tworads their major requirements
by taking Intro to Programming in C, and almost everyone has to take the
class (or struggle through a required data structures class taught in
C/C++ without any knowledge of the language -- not a good idea).
>I wonder how many 'narrow-minded scientific types' would choose to take
>the humanities equivalent of 'Physics for Poets'. I know I wouldn't, but
>one data point doesn't mean much.
>
I wouldn't. I'd rather take history than English, but History for
Computer Scientists?
John S. Novak, III
>Again, check what I wrote the first time: "Avendesora
>constituded the _center_ of some mystic/cult/magical place
>[...]".
Then tell me, for Chrissake, what mystic/[oc]cult/magical place Avendesora
was the center of! You must, from your use of the past tense, be
speaking about the Age of Legends, so you can't just be talking about
Rhuidean.
And try to remember here that Avendesora wasn't Avendesora until a lot
later. In the Age of Legends, it was the chora tree, no capital
letters that I recall, and was common enough that all cities had lots
of them. So what _place_ (singular) of mystic/[oc]cult/magical
significance, was it the center of?
There is really no evidence that it was anything other than a very
pleasing hot-house orchid kind of a tree that just plain old didn't
survive well without the lavish amounts of care the Age of Legends
peopel could give it. (Rhuidean itself was probably set up in such a
way that a tree would survive for old times' sake, or perhaps because
one of those Aes Sedai who had it set up had an inkling of Foretelling
about it.)
>Good, scratch "cult" then. Do you want to claim that
>Rhuidean _isn't_ a place of magical and/or mystical
>properties (however much that can be in a world where magic
>works)?
Then your entire observation reduces itself to the level of, "Well,
Duh! Tell me something not blatantly obvious!"
Since you're the one trumpetting about how I should pay close
attention to your words, explain why you chose the past tense, which
obfuscates everything you've said, if you're trying to talk about the
book-present situation of Rhuidean.
>The current Aiel don't. But the Jenn _did_. And it was the
>Jenn who placed and possibly built the testing ter'angreals
>in the center of Rhuidean, and made Rhuidean a special place
>in the Aiel culture.
No, it was the Aes Sedai who did all of that. Maybe the Jenn
performed the actual labor, but no doubt it was the Aes Sedai who
directed them. No evidence that I can see of the Jenn forming any
kind of cult around the tree or attaching to it any supernatural
powers.
>What does matter here are that the Jenn quite deliberately
>first placed Avendesora in (I'd say even _as_) the center of
>their city, and then made that city a center of the Aiel
>culture.
The Aes Sedai did that.
>Avendesora is a well-known entity of rather big mythical
>status - just like the Tree of Knowledge, Yggdrasil in
>Germanic mythology, and all the others special trees that
>appear in myths just about everwhere in the world.
You're over-generalizing, or just plain old not saying what you want
to say.
Ian Ring
Scottina B Good wrote:
> > After 3,000 years of searching, the legendary Tree of Life is found.
> > Somebody immediately gets hanged in it.
> > Said someone is resurected.
> > Tree of Life has nothing to do with it.
> Of course not silly boy. It was *all* Rand.
> <nudge> Dragon Reborn & all, you know.
You've really got a point. In fact, it looks a lot like Mat himself got
Reborn right there in Rhuidean--all he needs now is some creature
associated with him. Perrin would be easy: Wolf Reborn. All I can
think of for Mat would be, going back to the opening of tEotW, "Badger
Reborn."
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5enbfg$9...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >Again, check what I wrote the first time: "Avendesora
> >constituded the _center_ of some mystic/cult/magical place
> >[...]".
>
> Then tell me, for Chrissake, what mystic/[oc]cult/magical place Avendesora
> was the center of! You must, from your use of the past tense, be
> speaking about the Age of Legends, so you can't just be talking about
> Rhuidean.
Where have I mentioned the AoL other than that noting that
there were plenty of chora trees then?
My past tense have referred to that Rhuidean's role in the
Aiel society changed pretty radically with the end of TSR.
The whole reason I used "some" was to make the connection
with other mythical trees, not to imply that there had been
several such places in Randland's history, or anything else.
I could have written it clearer with hindsight, but frankly
speaking I saw my words as clear enough the first time, and
still do.
> >Good, scratch "cult" then. Do you want to claim that
> >Rhuidean _isn't_ a place of magical and/or mystical
> >properties (however much that can be in a world where magic
> >works)?
>
> Then your entire observation reduces itself to the level of, "Well,
> Duh! Tell me something not blatantly obvious!"
If you can agree with that, what is the trouble you have
with Rhuidean being a cult place? I don't say that the goals
of the Aiel's ceremonies and rituals in it had religous
purposes, but I will definitely claim that it uses cultic
methods and means, and that some of the goals are similar
(hide and preserve knowledge).
> Since you're the one trumpetting about how I should pay close
> attention to your words, explain why you chose the past tense, which
> obfuscates everything you've said, if you're trying to talk about the
> book-present situation of Rhuidean.
The present situation is that Avendesora is the center of the
populated city of Rhuidean.
I use the past tense since its current status (the peace of
Rhuidean, future testings of Clan Chiefs and WOs) is
unclear.
> >The current Aiel don't. But the Jenn _did_. And it was the
> >Jenn who placed and possibly built the testing ter'angreals
> >in the center of Rhuidean, and made Rhuidean a special place
> >in the Aiel culture.
>
> No, it was the Aes Sedai who did all of that. Maybe the Jenn
> performed the actual labor, but no doubt it was the Aes Sedai who
> directed them. No evidence that I can see of the Jenn forming any
> kind of cult around the tree or attaching to it any supernatural
> powers.
Again you miss my point. What the current Aiel cared about
the tree is pretty much moot (though I don't doubt they did
care), the point is that the Jenn did Avendesora the center
of Rhuidean, and then that Rhuidean was made a center of the
Aiel culture and society.
> >What does matter here are that the Jenn quite deliberately
> >first placed Avendesora in (I'd say even _as_) the center of
> >their city, and then made that city a center of the Aiel
> >culture.
>
> The Aes Sedai did that.
I'd rather say the Aes Sedai _and_ the Jenn. But I digress.
John S. Novak, III
>My past tense have referred to that Rhuidean's role in the
>Aiel society changed pretty radically with the end of TSR.
That's... not at all clear.
That is, to say the least, about the last interpretation I would have
settled on.
>> Then your entire observation reduces itself to the level of, "Well,
>> Duh! Tell me something not blatantly obvious!"
>If you can agree with that, what is the trouble you have
>with Rhuidean being a cult place?
I'm going to say this as gently as I can, without being condescending:
Because you are-- or seem-- wholly unaware of the connotations of the
words 'mystic' and 'cult'. Rhuidean doesn't meet my definition of
mystic or cult. Nothing in the Jordan world really strikes me as
being mystic or cult, because while there is the One Power, it is
appears to be a completely human-understandable system more like a
superset of physics than anything else.
So just because Rhuidean has a lot of One Power stuff associated with
it, that hardly makes it mystic or [oc]cult in my book.
So you're left standing there claiming, basically, that because
Rhuidean is a place where secrets are kept, that it is a[n] [oc]cult
place. This jus _really_ doesn't satisfy the connotation or
denotation of the word. You could just as easily say that Tar Valon
and Tear are centers of [oc]cult and mystic places.
Prescient Dragon
Karl-Johan Noren wrote:
>
> > >What does matter here are that the Jenn quite deliberately
> > >first placed Avendesora in (I'd say even _as_) the center of
> > >their city, and then made that city a center of the Aiel
> > >culture.
> >
> > The Aes Sedai did that.
>
> I'd rather say the Aes Sedai _and_ the Jenn. But I digress.
>
I'm afraid that John is right. After Rand saw the past in Rhuidean, it
repeatedly stated that the Aiel SERVED the Aes Sedai. The Jenn (or any
Aiel for that matter) had no say in what the Aes Sedai were doing. You
could say "the Aes Sedai _and_ the Jenn", but you would also have to say
that the Jenn were commanded by the Aes Sedai.
--
"Deep into the darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;..."
Edgar Allen Poe, The Raven
(-:==UDIC==;-)
Prescient Dragon
kfi...@enter.net
Keith Fiske
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5enpib$m...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >If you can agree with that, what is the trouble you have
> >with Rhuidean being a cult place?
>
> I'm going to say this as gently as I can, without being condescending:
>
> Because you are-- or seem-- wholly unaware of the connotations of the
> words 'mystic' and 'cult'. Rhuidean doesn't meet my definition of
> mystic or cult. Nothing in the Jordan world really strikes me as
> being mystic or cult, because while there is the One Power, it is
> appears to be a completely human-understandable system more like a
> superset of physics than anything else.
Perhaps we're using different terminology bases here: I'm
using cult in a religious historical way. In my terminology,
_any_ real-world church (or local equivalent) is a cult
place.
Any real-world religion is a cult, provided that it has
designated officials and some set of fixed rituals. But I
don't place much emphasis on the religious content. It's the
forms which are interesting.
> So just because Rhuidean has a lot of One Power stuff associated with
> it, that hardly makes it mystic or [oc]cult in my book.
I haven't called it occult. There's a very simple reason for
why Rhuidean, the WOs and the Clan Chiefs can't be called
that: their role in the Aiel society is clear, and it's
connected with the knowledge that you have to go to Rhuidean
to gain that position.
Occult also, to me, carries more meaning than simply hidden
or secret. It has implications towards forbidden, and of
searching for "new" hidden knowledge. None of those two are
present with the Aiel.
> So you're left standing there claiming, basically, that because
> Rhuidean is a place where secrets are kept, that it is a[n] [oc]cult
> place. This jus _really_ doesn't satisfy the connotation or
> denotation of the word. You could just as easily say that Tar Valon
> and Tear are centers of [oc]cult and mystic places.
Actually, they fail to meet one of my main criteria for
cults - criteria which I have explained earlier. The WOs and
the Clan Chiefs _are_ WOs and Clan Chiefs by virtue of
having faced and received hidden and secret knowledge. This
is _not_ the case with the AS.
There are several cases of historical real-world religions
which are based on this. The one I know best is the one
described by Tacitus, centered around the worship of Nerthus
(a forerunner of Njord) in current Holland, but there are
many more cases. It is the similarities with these that
makes me regard Rhuidean as a cult place. It is this which
makes me regard the Aiel as a cult - but a cult in a very
loose sense, hardly more than eg modern secularised
Christianity.
John S. Novak, III
>Perhaps we're using different terminology bases here: I'm
>using cult in a religious historical way. In my terminology,
>_any_ real-world church (or local equivalent) is a cult
>place.
I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
word has.
Brian D. Ritchie
>>I wonder how many 'narrow-minded scientific types' would choose to take
>>the humanities equivalent of 'Physics for Poets'. I know I wouldn't, but
>>one data point doesn't mean much.
>Anecdotally, more than you might expect, but far less than the number
>of humanities geeks taking Rocks for Jocks (ie, Geology 101). Do
>let's try to remember the ubiquitous existence of classes like
>Clapping for Credit (ie, Music Appreciation) and the like.
It might depend on the subject matter, but normally I wouldn't. Many
people would take them for the easy A, but I figure I might as well learn
something if I'm taking a class. I will say that intro humanities courses
seem easier than intro sciences, so maybe that's how the school justifies
pandering to the "math and science are too hard" mentality.
The intro humanities courses were actually interesting sometimes, but I
really didn't like Ohio State's method for electives. Engineers were
given a list of courses broken into groups of about five and had to pick
one from each group. It isn't much of an elective when you do that. What
really annoyed me was that engineers had more social science/humanities
requierements than ss/h majors had for math and science, and yet all we
heard were lectures about narrow-minded engineers. The fact that
engineers needed about eight more classes to graduate was fairly annoying
as well.
>Someone populates these courses.
Scholarship athletes?
--
Brian Ritchie
br...@prism.gatech.edu
Christian R. Conrad
On 23 Feb 1997 00:00:52 +0100,
Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> said:
[ S N I P KJ and Novak on Rhuidean as cult centre, etc. ]
> Actually, they fail to meet one of my main criteria for
> cults - criteria which I have explained earlier. The WOs and
> the Clan Chiefs _are_ WOs and Clan Chiefs by virtue of
> having faced and received hidden and secret knowledge. This
> is _not_ the case with the AS.
???
So the knowledge that makes accepted out of novices and AS
out of Accepted isn't kept secret from the rest of te world?
And the transitions (Alternate lives ter'ang'real, Oath Rod)
aren't highly formalised, ritualistic? What are you saying?
[ S N I P rest ]
Christian R. Conrad
======================================================================
Inventor of the "Verin is OK, she just reads minds" theory,
Proud and sole owner of all opinions (except quotes) expressed above!
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >Perhaps we're using different terminology bases here: I'm
> >using cult in a religious historical way. In my terminology,
> >_any_ real-world church (or local equivalent) is a cult
> >place.
>
> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
> word has.
Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
_isn't_ cultic acts?
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5epgar$r...@idefix.eunet.fi>,
christia...@hedengren.fi (Christian R. Conrad) wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> said:
>
> [ S N I P KJ and Novak on Rhuidean as cult centre, etc. ]
>
> > Actually, they fail to meet one of my main criteria for
> > cults - criteria which I have explained earlier. The WOs and
> > the Clan Chiefs _are_ WOs and Clan Chiefs by virtue of
> > having faced and received hidden and secret knowledge. This
> > is _not_ the case with the AS.
>
> So the knowledge that makes accepted out of novices and AS
> out of Accepted isn't kept secret from the rest of te world?
It is kept secret, yes, but the Accepted test is first and
foremost a test, the WO/Clan Chief test is first and
foremost a way to give them the true history of the
Aiel. The test is in this case an _effect_, not the cause of
the action.
"Whoever lead among you must come to Rhuidean and learn
where we come from, and why you do not carry swords. Who
cannot learn, will not live." [TSR, The Road to the Spear]
> And the transitions (Alternate lives ter'ang'real, Oath Rod)
> aren't highly formalised, ritualistic? What are you saying?
Yes, they're ritualistic. But they don't aim at the
preservation of some hidden knowledge.
Hawk
In article <err3eun...@grady.dsv.su.se>,
Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>In <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
>Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
>> word has.
>Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
>_isn't_ cultic acts?
I was going to go on a spiel as to how I agree with KJ personally, but
that the definition of cult doesn't really lend itself to what he's
saying. Then I looked it up in the dictionary I have on my computer.
Take special note of definitions 2 and 3.
cult (kilt) n.
1.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or
false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the
guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of
such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to
have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a
person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or
intellectual interest.
Hawk
"LOVE makes you want to stab people? That isn't love. That's brain
damage. Though I do understand your confusion between the two, some days..."
Dylan Alexander
}In <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
}Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
}> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
}> word has.
}
}Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
}_isn't_ cultic acts?
Yes. That's not the way the word is commonly used today. Tell a Christian
over here that these are the act of a cult and he's going to introduce
you to his gun.
--
Dylan Alexander dy...@tamu.edu
"The North had slaves also -- but they paid them and called them
servants." - a University of Texas student defends the South.
Christian R. Conrad
> In article <err3eun...@grady.dsv.su.se>, Karl-Johan Noren
> <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
> }In <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
> }Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> }> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
> }> word has.
> }
> }Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
> }_isn't_ cultic acts?
> Yes. That's not the way the word is commonly used today. Tell a Christian
^^^^
No problem over here though! <^8
> over here that these are the act of a cult and he's going to introduce
> you to his gun.
Christian R. Conrad
mikey
[Avendesora is a cultish artifact?]
When Rand was in Rhuidean, he saw a scene where
Aiel, an Ogier, and humans (not sure about the humans)
were singing around a chora tree, coaxing it to grow.
I always assumed this is where the Way of the Leaf
came from. I also think the Tua'than will rediscover
the song when they see Avendesora in Rhuidean.
The Way of the Leaf is the cult, but Avendesora does
not seem to be the center of it anymore from what
little we know about the Tinkers. The Aiel know that
Avendesora is important, but it is not a center of
their beliefs, so it can't be a cult place to them.
michael
__________________________________
"Of course we have to assume that one does
not equal zero, ohterwise everyhting falls apart"
---- http://artsci.wustl.edu/~mgrobine
Karl-Johan Noren
In <mgrobine-230...@eliot24.wustl.edu>,
mgro...@artsci.wustl.edu (mikey) wrote:
> [Avendesora is a cultish artifact?]
Actually, that has never been under discussion given the
current Aiel (the Jenn is another matter).
> When Rand was in Rhuidean, he saw a scene where
> Aiel, an Ogier, and humans (not sure about the humans)
> were singing around a chora tree, coaxing it to grow.
> I always assumed this is where the Way of the Leaf
> came from. I also think the Tua'than will rediscover
> the song when they see Avendesora in Rhuidean.
> The Way of the Leaf is the cult, but Avendesora does
> not seem to be the center of it anymore from what
> little we know about the Tinkers. The Aiel know that
> Avendesora is important, but it is not a center of
> their beliefs, so it can't be a cult place to them.
No, but Rhuidean is. And the Jenn placed Avendesora as
the center of Rhuidean.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <dylan-23029...@news.tamu.edu>,
dy...@tamu.edu (Dylan Alexander) wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> wrote:
>
> }Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> }> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
> }> word has.
> }
> }Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
> }_isn't_ cultic acts?
>
> Yes. That's not the way the word is commonly used today. Tell a Christian
> over here that these are the act of a cult and he's going to introduce
> you to his gun.
Violence when they can't face the world.
Tsk tsk.
Jeff Vinocur
On 23 Feb 1997 16:34:36 GMT, M...@cris.com (Hawk) wrote:
:I was going to go on a spiel as to how I agree with KJ personally, but
:that the definition of cult doesn't really lend itself to what he's
:saying. Then I looked it up in the dictionary I have on my computer.
:Take special note of definitions 2 and 3.
The reason the definitions are numbered separately and not
separated by commas or semicolons is that they are alternate
definitions. Go look up "run" in your dictionary. There is
no possible way you could use that word so that all of the
definitions apply.
--
Jeff Vinocur
chi...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3768/
Malka Susswein
On 21 Feb 1997, Flavio J. Carrillo wrote:
> In <5eir1n$a...@chronicle.concentric.net> J...@cris.com (John S. Novak,
> III) writes:
>
> >Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
>
> ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
>
> For high brow law type stuff, I highly recommendLaw & Order.
>
> Of course, I like to watch Friends, so I'm arguably brain damaged. ;)
Add _B5_, _Party of Five_ and _North of 60_ to that and you now have
exactly the shows I watch.
Malka.
(oooh! And don't forget _Third Rock from the Sun_)
John S. Novak, III
>> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
>> word has.
>Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
>_isn't_ cultic acts?
(Aren't)
Do you know what "connotation" means?
Nathaniel Scheckler
In article <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net> John S. Novak,
Not necessarily so. Certainly, here in the US, "cult" currently has some
very negative baggage riding with it, but the rest of the world often
does not share our strangely modified word meanings. Then again, I also
know a few red-blooded Merkins who happen to be scholars of ancient
religions, and they use the word "cult" in much the same way as KJ is
using it. Given that KJ is Scandinavian and is apparently more than a
little knowledgable of Norse mythology, I would say that his usage of
"cult" was perfectly acceptable. As always, though, you may feel free to
disregard my opinions; everyone does anyway. :-)
Nathaniel Scheckler
A.H. de Goeij
J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>In <err914h...@sally.dsv.su.se> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>>Again, check what I wrote the first time: "Avendesora
>>constituded the _center_ of some mystic/cult/magical place
>>[...]".
>Then tell me, for Chrissake, what mystic/[oc]cult/magical place Avendesora
>was the center of! You must, from your use of the past tense, be
>speaking about the Age of Legends, so you can't just be talking about
>Rhuidean.
Why isn't it possible that Rhuidan is the centre of a "cult" (used for
the lack of better word) based on the "feeling" of loss?
That is the feeling of loss of an Age long gone? I think that the
Aiel "being" is very much based on that sense of loss; the loss of
innosence <sp>; the loss of the Way of the Leaf; the loss of the peace
of the AoL.
All this is embodied by the Tree of Life/Avendesora/chora tree. (The
centre of Rhuidan)
_Maybe_ the tree itself doesn't have any special properties besides
those described in TSR. But for the Aiel it is a centre/focus of their
culture, even if most until recently were not aware of the true
meaning of Rhuidan nor the presence of a chora tree/Avendesora/ Tree
of Life.
>And try to remember here that Avendesora wasn't Avendesora until a lot
>later. In the Age of Legends, it was the chora tree, no capital
>letters that I recall, and was common enough that all cities had lots
>of them. So what _place_ (singular) of mystic/[oc]cult/magical
>significance, was it the center of?
Hmm, not sure here, is there actual proof of this? Possibly a chora
tree was kept in special esteem (*sacred* spot or so) and was reffered
to as Avendesora. But mind you this is only a (loony?) theory.
[snip who did it AS or Jenn Aiel]
As a matter of fact that issue should be moot, I personnally always
assumed at least a few of the post Breaking Jenn Aiel have been
trained AS. I would find it very strange if AS even AoL AS would live
that long (long enough to see most of Rhuidan build/ laid out). Thus
taking this into account one might see these two as the same.
Hmm, I just hope I didn't intrude on a completely private theory forum
on rasfwrj but this might add something to the discussion. IMO that
is.
Jeff Vinocur
On 23 Feb 1997 19:04:07 GMT, Nathaniel Scheckler
<*nsc...@vt.edu*> wrote:
:In article <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net> John S. Novak,
:J...@cris.com writes:
:>I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
:>word has.
:
:Not necessarily so. Certainly, here in the US, "cult" currently has some
:very negative baggage riding with it, but the rest of the world often
:does not share our strangely modified word meanings.
Treat it like, say "interference." In some connotations, it
is negative, but in others (such as scientific fields) it
simply is a concrete action with no moral judgement implied.
Dorit Koren
Hawk wrote:
<SNIP: Some definitions of "cult">
> 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
> 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
> and ritual.
So every single organized (and unorganized) religion is a cult? Now
granted, they all started out as such, but by the time a given
religion's followers number in the millions, shouldn't it outgrow
"cult" status? I think the connotation of "cult" is something new,
and strange because it is unfamiliar. (The negative image of cults
has probably risen because most of the famous publicized cases of
cults in recent times have been _really_ wacko.) Anyhow, does this
definition imply that everyone who isn't an atheist is a cult member?
Dorit.
Courtenay Footman
In article <5eosv6$r...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
>
>>Perhaps we're using different terminology bases here: I'm
>>using cult in a religious historical way. In my terminology,
>>_any_ real-world church (or local equivalent) is a cult
>>place.
>
>word has.
>
2. Hence: a The rites of a religion. b Great devotion to some person,
idea, or thing, esp. such devotion viewed as an intellectual fad. 3.
A sect.
(Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
K-J is using definition 2 a, John is using definition 2 b. In the US
2 b is much the dominate one; I am willing to believe that the other
definition might be stronger outside the US, particularly to a person
wiht a strong interest in mythology.
John, there are many things that are worth your getting upset over;
IMHO, this is not one of them.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courtenay Footman I have again gotten back on the net, and
c...@lightlink.com again I will never get anything done.
Courtenay Footman
Christian R. Conrad
> Hawk wrote:
> <SNIP: Some definitions of "cult">
> > 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
> > 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
> > and ritual.
> So every single organized (and unorganized) religion is a cult? Now
Yes.
> granted, they all started out as such, but by the time a given
> religion's followers number in the millions, shouldn't it outgrow
No. Religion = _Big_ cult.
> "cult" status? I think the connotation of "cult" is something new,
Yes, this negative one is.
> and strange because it is unfamiliar. (The negative image of cults
> has probably risen because most of the famous publicized cases of
> cults in recent times have been _really_ wacko.) Anyhow, does this
> definition imply that everyone who isn't an atheist is a cult member?
Not, I guess, if they[1] adhere to a completely _own_ set of beliefs,
without ritual ceremony. But if you want to be literal-minded, anything
from two people upwards could be a cult in the "community" sense.
Or a very small religion, if you will.
[1]: he / she. But I _think_ it's correct usage to say "they", here.
So we have this idiom of using they in the singular sense... <^;
Thomas Buck
A.H. de Goeij wrote:
>
> J...@cris.com (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>
> >In <err914h...@sally.dsv.su.se> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
>
> [snip who did it AS or Jenn Aiel]
>
> As a matter of fact that issue should be moot, I personnally always
> assumed at least a few of the post Breaking Jenn Aiel have been
> trained AS. I would find it very strange if AS even AoL AS would live
> that long (long enough to see most of Rhuidan build/ laid out). Thus
> taking this into account one might see these two as the same.
>
Two points speaking against your opinion: when Rand sees the Aiel
history in the glass-columns, it is mentioned when the meeting at
Rhuidean is set up that "they (the Jenn-Aiel) still have some AS with
them". It is then described that the AS have to be carried because they
are very old.
Second, we know of an 465 year old OP-user, and she isn't in the shape
that she has to be carried (the Kin in Ebou Dar). So I estimate an age
of about 600 years for the AS who build up Rhuidean.
Now, has someone a timeline from the Breaking to tell us how long after
it Rhuidean has been build ?
Thomas
PS.: Are this now just two halves of a whole point, or really two
seperate points? Doesn't matters anyway......I hope.
James Andrew Welsh
Malka Susswein (mal...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il) wrote:
: Add _B5_, _Party of Five_ and _North of 60_ to that and you now have
: exactly the shows I watch.
You watch _North of 60_ in Israel? I don't know many people who watch it
and we make it.
--
JAW
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1482/
"Warning: The fixed link to Prince Edward Island is nearly
complete...Soon they will walk among us."
Rick Mercer - This Hour Has 22 Minutes
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5eqj2d$o...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
Novak the Novak of Novak <J...@cris.com> wrote:
> Karl-Johan Noren <k-j-...@dsv.su.se> writes:
>
> >> I'll say this again-- this just plain old isn't the connotation the
> >> word has.
>
> >Do you want to claim that baptising or the Holy Communion
> >_isn't_ cultic acts?
>
> (Aren't)
Check your dictionary. For that matter, _any_ dictionary.
> Do you know what "connotation" means?
Yes.
!Peeve^N!: finding _Warrior's Apprentice_.
Emma Pease
>cult, n. 1. A system of worship of a diety; as the _cult_ of Apollo.
>2. Hence: a The rites of a religion. b Great devotion to some person,
>idea, or thing, esp. such devotion viewed as an intellectual fad. 3.
>A sect.
>(Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
>K-J is using definition 2 a, John is using definition 2 b. In the US
>2 b is much the dominate one; I am willing to believe that the other
>definition might be stronger outside the US, particularly to a person
>wiht a strong interest in mythology.
>John, there are many things that are worth your getting upset over;
>IMHO, this is not one of them.
Agreed. John, you might want to consider the difference between most
layfolk's definition of 'quantum' and the physics definition. K-J is
using the technical meaning of the word, cult, within the study of
mythology.
OED defines cult as
1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. Obs.
(exc. as in sense 2).
2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in
reference to its external rites and ceremonies.
(with citations back to 1679)
b. Now freq. used attrib. by writers on cultic ritual and the
archaeology of primitive cults.
...
1928 Peake & Fleure Steppe & Sown 104 Already in Early Minoan times
the double axe had become, not only a symbol of authority, but a cult
object.
...
3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as
paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.
The negative meaning the word has in modern American isn't even
listed.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ em...@csli.stanford.edu Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Karl-Johan Noren
In <331129...@J320663412.resnet.cornell.edu>,
Dorit Koren <dk...@J320663412.resnet.cornell.edu> wrote:
> Hawk wrote:
>
> <SNIP: Some definitions of "cult">
>
> > 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
> > 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
> > and ritual.
>
> So every single organized (and unorganized) religion is a cult?
Certainly every organised. About unorganised religions (if
that isn't a contradiction in terms), you'd have to check if
there's any forms of rituals performed.
> Now granted, they all started out as such, but by the time a given
> religion's followers number in the millions, shouldn't it outgrow
> "cult" status?
No. Then you'd have to stop calling the worshipping of the
Roman Emperor during the antique cult as well.
> I think the connotation of "cult" is something new, and strange
> because it is unfamiliar. (The negative image of cults has probably
> risen because most of the famous publicized cases of cults in recent
> times have been _really_ wacko.)
The correct word for those forms of cults are sects. Sects are a
sub-class of cults.
> Anyhow, does this definition imply that everyone who isn't an
> atheist is a cult member?
No. It's entirely possible to be a theist who isn't a member
of a church and whose belief is entirely private.
ObBujold: Cordelia Vorkosigan vee Naismith.
It's also entirely possible to be a cult member while being
an atheist. Check China during Mao's reign for a start. A
lot more examples exist all over the world.
Kate Nepveu
Rumor has it that flav...@ix.netcom.com(Flavio J. Carrillo ) said:
>In <5eir1n$a...@chronicle.concentric.net> J...@cris.com (John S. Novak,
>III) writes:
>>Apparently I'll get laughed at, but I like ER.
>ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
>Of course, I like to watch Friends, so I'm arguably brain damaged. ;)
That sound you just heard was my opinion of you plummeting.
Kate
Don't threaten me with love, baby. Let's just go walking in the rain.
--Billie Holiday
John S. Novak, III
>Not necessarily so. Certainly, here in the US, "cult" currently has some
>very negative baggage riding with it, but the rest of the world often
>does not share our strangely modified word meanings.
I refuse to admit a poster outside the American, .uk, or .au domains to
dictate connotations to me, unless they are a professor of English or
an ex-patriot. (And I'm really not too sure about the Ozzies,
either...)
Then again, I also
>know a few red-blooded Merkins who happen to be scholars of ancient
>religions, and they use the word "cult" in much the same way as KJ is
>using it.
Imagine me saying this with my teeth clamped shut:
If the word is being used in a scholarly sense, then it probably isn't
being used consisently with modern connotations, now IS IT?
John S. Novak, III
>John, there are many things that are worth your getting upset over;
>IMHO, this is not one of them.
I'm not upset, I'm exasperated and slightly bemused is all.
John S. Novak, III
>Check your dictionary. For that matter, _any_ dictionary.
>> Do you know what "connotation" means?
>Yes.
Evidently not.
Karl-Johan, I have been _trying_ to explain to you that your word uage
here, while it may be perfectly correct from a scholarly or textbook
sense, simply doesn't match up with the way the word is _used_ in
conversation.
Basically, I'm trying to point out to you why your entire point about
the silly-assed tree is terribly unclear. Most people express a deire
for clarity.
John S. Novak, III
> 1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. Obs.
>(exc. as in sense 2).
> 2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in
>reference to its external rites and ceremonies.
Nice.
Except the tree isn't _worshipped_ now is it?
That would go exactly counter to Jordan's statement that there are no
religions, per se, in the Whel of Time world.
(Now, granted, I think Jordan is way off base on that whole
assumption, but there it is.)
> 3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as
>paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.
This is the closest we get, but nowhere have I seen anyone pay homage
or devotion to the tree. There are many myths and legends about it.
I could even, for a moment, consider that there exists a body of
adherents or admirers, but only at a great distance. But I see no
devotions or homages paid to it.
Cutting-them-off-at-the-pass: No, going to Rhuidean to become Wise
One or Clan Cheif doesn't cut it, because they're not going to see the
Tree. The Tree happens to be there, but the people are going to
Rhuidean for an entirely different purpose.
>The negative meaning the word has in modern American isn't even
>listed.
The OED isn't the dictionary I'd use for a discussion of connotation
in any event.
Even in the most technical sense of the word, I think Karl-Johan is
stretching the point a _lot_. Unless he really means to say the
following:
"Rhuidean, by virtue of the ter'angreal of history of future-seeing,
is a place of cultish signifigance. It is cultish because the
knowledge is hidden from the masses by an elite few. Further,
Avendesora is the geographic center of this cultish place, because it
is the geographic center of Rhuidean."
If that's what Karl-Johan means, and that's all he means, then fine.
We can agree on that.
But Karl-Johan's phrasing makes it sound a lot like he is making the
tree itself into an _object_ of cult activity. And this I simply
don't buy.
John S. Novak, III
In <33123a12...@news.std.com> Xkne...@world.std.comX (Kate Nepveu) writes:
>>ER is an excellent show; why would anyone laugh at you for that?
>I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
>with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
>asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
Enh.
That wasn't a bad episode, and was better than most television on the
air, but it was hardly an example of their best. It was, on the
whole, an attempt by the writers to reproduce "Love's Labor Lost"
which many people still consider to be the finest hour of ER ever
shown, and one of the best hours of television in general.
Because of LLL, the ER writers usually make one attempt a season at
creating an intense story focussing around a single character. But it
hasn't ever worked as well as LLL, though. It's never worked as well
for that particular hour, and it's never worked as well in terms of
the continuing plot lines. On the whole, I wish they'd stop doing it,
if they can't get it right, again.
Michael Kozlowski
In article <33123a12...@news.std.com>,
Kate Nepveu <Xkne...@world.std.comX> wrote:
[ER]
>I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
>with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
>asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
Asleep? At 9:00? Dear Lord, girl, what's wrong with you?
--
Michael Kozlowski mkoz...@ssc.wisc.edu
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/index.html
"Weasels, weasels everywhere; Nor any drop to drink!"
Craig Levin
In article <5etfhq$m...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
John S. Novak, III <J...@cris.com> wrote:
>The OED isn't the dictionary I'd use for a discussion of connotation
>in any event.
Actually, as a resource for the development of a word's
connotation, up until ~1900, I'd go to the OED. After ~1900,
there's just _way_ too much stuff out there, even for the learned
clerks at Oxford. Other than that, Karl-Johan, connotation trumps
denotation, in informal discourse, nearly every time. Cult
happens to have a variety of respectable denotary neanings, but
its connotary one is a corker...
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
cle...@ripco.com
Craig Levin
Ivis Reed Bohlen
In article <5etik2$1e...@news.doit.wisc.edu> Michael Kozlowski,
mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu writes:
>[ER]
[snip Kate's remark about ER past her usual bedtime]
>Asleep? At 9:00? Dear Lord, girl, what's wrong with you?
The same thing that's wrong with me. ER comes on at 10pm Eastern time.
It's past my bedtime too, hence the fact that I've never seen it. Or Law
and Order, Homicide, Chicago Hope...
Hey, so I'm boring. Just got my cable reduced to the basic service since
I realised I only watch about 5 hours of television per week anyway. I
did stay up for Schindler's List, though, which I hadn't seen before.
Ivis
Malka Susswein
On 24 Feb 1997, James Andrew Welsh wrote:
> Malka Susswein (mal...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il) wrote:
>
> : Add _B5_, _Party of Five_ and _North of 60_ to that and you now have
> : exactly the shows I watch.
>
> You watch _North of 60_ in Israel? I don't know many people who watch it
> and we make it.
It's still running? I was staying up every night till 2:30 just to watch
that show. I thought it was some sort of ancient number and that that's
why it was on so late. I guess this means we'll be getting new chapters
soon?
Malka.
Malka Susswein
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Christian R. Conrad wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:39:57 -0500,
> Dorit Koren <dk...@J320663412.resnet.cornell.edu> said:
>
> > Hawk wrote:
>
> > <SNIP: Some definitions of "cult">
>
> > > 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
> > > 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
> > > and ritual.
>
> > So every single organized (and unorganized) religion is a cult? Now
>
> Yes.
How nice.
> > granted, they all started out as such, but by the time a given
> > religion's followers number in the millions, shouldn't it outgrow
>
> No. Religion = _Big_ cult.
No. My interpretation of the word cult is a group of people whose
religious beliefs fit the pattern of a certain recognizable religion (such
as Christianity) but in a very twisted form.
> > "cult" status? I think the connotation of "cult" is something new,
>
> Yes, this negative one is.
>
> > and strange because it is unfamiliar. (The negative image of cults
> > has probably risen because most of the famous publicized cases of
> > cults in recent times have been _really_ wacko.) Anyhow, does this
> > definition imply that everyone who isn't an atheist is a cult member?
>
> Not, I guess, if they[1] adhere to a completely _own_ set of beliefs,
> without ritual ceremony. But if you want to be literal-minded, anything
> from two people upwards could be a cult in the "community" sense.
> Or a very small religion, if you will.
I guess if you put it that way any belief system that dictates behaviour
is a cult. Which means that everyone who lives in any society with rules,
believes those rules should be adhered to, and acts according to that
belief, is a memeber of a cult.
Malka.
Karl-Johan Noren
In <5etik2$1e...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) wrote:
> Kate Nepveu <Xkne...@world.std.comX> wrote:
>
> [ER]
>
> >I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
> >with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
> >asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
>
> Asleep? At 9:00? Dear Lord, girl, what's wrong with you?
Think dreamers and a six hour time difference.
Hawk
In article <Pine.A32.3.93-heb-2.07.9...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il>,>> > Hawk wrote:
[def. of cult]
>> > > 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
>> > > 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony
>> > > and ritual.
>> No. Religion = _Big_ cult.
>No. My interpretation of the word cult is a group of people whose
>religious beliefs fit the pattern of a certain recognizable religion (such
>as Christianity) but in a very twisted form.
That's nice. However, Judaism is a cult. Christianity is a cult. Islam
is a cult. _Any_ religion is a cult. You might not like that fact, but
it's a fact. You're going to have to do a lot of lobbying to change that
dictionary definition.
Hawk
-Do not meddle in the affairs of hawks, for we are fond of raking with our
talons.
Magnus Itland
Thomas Buck <tb...@gwdg.de> wrote:
>To add my own believe to the origial question "What is Avendesora?":
>From Rands "mind-visit" in the AoL we know that these "Chora-Trees"
>(hope I remember the AoL-name correctly) where very common, though
>also there apreciated. The people of AoL couldn't imagine a city
>without Chora-Trees. I think this wouldn't be the case if it was
>just a normal tree (wich tend to grow in some places and don't in
>others).
The Tree of life is mentioned at the end of the Bible. According
to Revelation 22 v 2, the leaves are healing to the peoples, and it
also bears fruit every month, 12 times a year.
But we already knew that RJ is borrowing heavily from the Bible.
There is nothing new under the sun.
--
itl...@sn.no Yes! The one and only Magnus Itland.
The first signs of mental breakdown can be subtle,
such as for instance a slightly changed signature.
Richard M. Boye'
Michael Kozlowski wrote:
>
> In article <33123a12...@news.std.com>,
> Kate Nepveu <Xkne...@world.std.comX> wrote:
>
> [ER]
>
> >I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
> >with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
> >asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
>
> Asleep? At 9:00? Dear Lord, girl, what's wrong with you?
Mike, Kate's in Boston.
YM 10:00.
I always wondered about you poor fools in Central & Mountain time. What
do you guys watch after Letterman when he goes off at 11:30?
Prime Time starts at 7:00... that bites.
--
Richard M. Boye' - wa...@webspan.net
* http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ *
"But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln,
how did you like the play?"
Kate Nepveu
Rumor has it that mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu (Michael Kozlowski) said:
>In article <33123a12...@news.std.com>,
>Kate Nepveu <Xkne...@world.std.comX> wrote:
>[ER]
>>I made the mistake of walking into the TV room right as the episode
>>with Carol & the convenience store holdup began. I should have been
>>asleep, but no, I had to get sucked in...
>Asleep? At 9:00? Dear Lord, girl, what's wrong with you?
ER is on at 10 here on the East Coast, and I require lots of sleep to
function properly (that 6 a.m. wakeup time doesn't help. Though it
could very well be worse.)
Kate
I should like to think of you as someone I knew
Many years ago, and, alas, wouldn't see again.
--Christopher Fry, _The Lady's Not for Burning_