(SPOILERS) What's up with Tuon? (long)
Jason Kraftcheck
lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
feature-length lame post.
SPOILER SPACE
(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
While Jordan has answered a lot of mysteries in WH, he did give us one
or two new ones. One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
characters in WH, Tuon. What was the foretelling by her damane?
We only get one POV of Tuon, in chapter 14. A damane tells Tuon's
fortune (Foretelling? On demand?), and Tuon is rather upset by it. WH,
p. 324, "She had commanded the damane to read her fortune, and she
should not have ordered her caned because she disliked what she heard."
On page 327, Anath has a little more to say about this: "What did she
say to make you angry? No one seems to know, except that you threw a
tantrum I am sorry to have missed." This quote also indicates that Tuon
isn't sharing here fortune with anyone. She says more to indicate that
on page 328: "Only luck had kept anyone from overhearing Lidya's cryptic
words ... if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been
chattering behind their hands about her fate."
What is her fate, that she doesn't want anyone to know about it? Does
it involve Mat? She certainly shows a lot of interest in Mat. They
first meet in Chapter 17, page 370.[1] She examines him, particularly
his ring, and offers to buy him. Is there something about him, or the
ring that relates somehow to the damane's Foretelling? She seems a bit
young to be buying "pets" regularly, and Mat walked into the room
covered with mud, injured, and behaving in what must have seemed to the
others as rude or inappropriately. Not the best first impression.
Tuon certainly seems to show a lot of interest in him from here on. The
next time we see her is in Tylin's bedroom, examining Mat's
/ashandarei/. (pages 386-7.) She asks about it, and offers to buy it.
Could this be related to her Foretelling as well, or does she just find
it interesting? Anyway, Mat comes real close to calling her a fool
here, "I will give you ten times the price you paid", "Only a fool would
pay it one time, let alone ten." She leaves the room without a word.
Because he wouldn't sell it? Because he was being cryptic with his
answers? Or because he called her a fool? No matter which of those
reasons, her response seems mild.
Several times, it is mentioned that Tuon seems to be following him or
watching him. Right before the /ashandarei/ scene, "... but it began to
seem to him that they passed in the hallways a little too often." On
page 388, "That was not the only time he encountered her alone. Of
course, she was not always followed by Anath or Selucia, or guards, yet
it seemed to him that rather too often he would decide to go back for
something and turn to find her by herself, looking at him, or he might
leave a room suddenly and find her outside the door. More than once he
looked over his shoulder leaving the Palace and saw her veiled face
peering out of a window." Mat attributes this to his paranoia about
being purchased, "It began to make him nervous, though. After all, the
woman had offered to BUY him. A thing like that had a tendency to make
a man nervous by its own self." However, we get yet a third mention of
her following him on pages 542-3, "Tuon continued to be there when he
turned around, looking at him or glancing or whatever she was doing,
just too often for comfort. Not enough to make him think she was
following him. Why would she do that? Just too often." Here it looks
more like Mat's lack of an explanation for her behavior makes him doubt
she is following him. After he mentions it three different times,
though, I think it is pretty clear that she *is* following him.
Their next encounter when he is leaving the damane kennels (page 404) is
interesting as well, particularly her reaction after he explains what he
was doing there. "The stern judicial mask the girl always wore for a
face had melted into a smile. She really was beautiful.
'That is very kind of you,' she said. 'It's good to know you are kind
to damane. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take
damane to their beds.'" Why the big smile? One explanation is that she
is relieved she won't have to have him executed, which might cause
problems with Tylin. Another is that she just likes people being kind
to damane. But maybe she is relieved to know that he isn't a pervert.
Or maybe it makes her happy that *he* is kind to damane. Several of
these might be true, but I think at least the last one is because she
says, "It's good to know *you* are kind to damane." (emphasis mine).
Their next and last meeting is when he is leaving the Palace (page
584). I think this meeting is just one too many coincidences. There
can't be any doubt that she is following him, and that she is apparently
alone most of the time she is doing it. An earlier quote also indicates
that whatever Tuon's reasons for her interest in Mat, she seems to be
keeping her interest to herself. In the scene with the /ashandarei/
(pages 386-7) Mat thinks, "Tylin said [Tuon] had never asked about [Mat]
or mentioned him since the offer of purchase."
Tuon says, "So you ARE intending to leave. I cannot allow that, Toy."
Why can't she allow him to leave? She *cannot* allow it. This could
again be attributed to something with Tylin, but Tylin is back, and Tuon
should know that she is back, and that after Mat's actions for the last
week, that Tylin is aware of his intent to leave. Everyone in the
Palace knew Mat intended to leave, so someone certainly told Tylin.
Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later (588)
when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap
her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot say
that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What? WTF are
you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I reading
too much into this, or is there some special significance to him saying
that? Egeanin's reaction cannot be due to Tuon's Foretelling, because
she doesn't know about it, but this is still interesting as an aside.
In the end of the scene (page 589), Mat announces that they are taking
Tuon with them. Tuon's reaction: "She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a
secret. She smiled, and he shivered. Oh, Light, how he shivered." Was
there something in her smile that made Mat shiver, or is that just his
reaction to his fate and her smiling about it. Why did she smile about
this? A couple of explanations:
1. She is considering all the not-so-nice things she intends to
do to Mat when she gets free. This might account for the
shivering.
2. On page 328, "'I must find a way to make contact with the
Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before
the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.'
The prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.". Did she
somehow find out that Mat is a friend of the Dragon? The
serious tone of the quote seems to indicate she will do
whatever is necessary to contact Rand.
3. She is actually happy about him taking her along, for
whatever reason she has taken so much interest in him.
I can't think of a reason to eliminate 1., but that doesn't help any
with my point (yes, I really do have a point to all this) so I'll ignore
it. The second one seems unlikely because I don't see how she would
know about the association between Rand and Mat. Does anyone in the
Palace besides Thom and Juilin know? And given Tylin's quote from page
386-7, Tuon isn't asking around about him. I can't imagine how 3. could
be true, *unless* it had to do with her Foretelling.
Stringing all this together like a bad conspiracy theory, I'm guessing
that the Foretelling about Tuon definitely concerned Mat. Why is she so
interested in him, if not for the Foretelling? Despite her apparent
maturity in her POV chapter, she is young. One could attribute her
interest in Mat to some teen-age infatuation. I find this unlikely
given the less than stellar first impression Mat made, and what about
the *cannot* allow him to leave thing? Why keep her interest secret?
Given that she kept the nature of the Foretelling secret as well, might
they be related?
Another tenuous bit about the foretelling is the reference to 'omens'
made it two different places. The quotes are on page 386, when Anath
again tells Tuon to stop with the veil thing, and Tuon answers "The
omens say otherwise, Anath." and on page 588, when Mat has Tuon
prisoner, and Selucia says, "Whatever the omens, this can still be
rectified if you will only consent to draw back." Assuming 'omens'
refers to something significant, rather than some silly Seanchan
superstition, the first quote might relate the veil-wearing to the
Foretelling. This might not relate to Mat in any way, but does tell us
a little more about the Foretelling. Having the veil related to the
Foretelling would give Tuon a little more justification in refusing to
take Anath's advice in this regard. If it is related to the
Foretelling, it also shows that Tuon still hasn't told Anath anything
about the Foretelling.
If the second quote has anything to do with the Foretelling, then Tuon
would have had to have told Selucia about it. This would not be
surprising, though. From Tuon's POV chapter (14), Selucia is a friend,
and probably the only person around that she could call a friend (even
though she wouldn't.) This quote seems to indicate that Tuon being a
captive was fated as part of the Foretelling.
This post is a lot longer than I intended (sorry), so to summarize:
Tuon doesn't want anyone to know the nature of the Foretelling about
her. There isn't a good explanation for Tuon's interest in Mat, and
keeping it quite, other than the Foretelling. Tuon is oddly happy about
Mat being kind to damane[3]. The Foretelling relates to the her being a
prisoner of Mat's somehow. She smiled for some reason when Mat said he
would be taking her with them when they left, rather than leaving her in
the stables. There was something really upsetting in the Foretelling.
The Foretelling relates somehow to Tuon wearing a veil. Given all of
this, I'm guessing that the Foretelling:
1. Has something to do with Mat, and had some fact like his
name or his ring or something to identify him to Tuon.
2. Gave some indication of the events involving Tuon's
kidnapping by Mat, and a less than tragic ending for Tuon.
3. Says something (possibly unrelated) about Tuon wearing a veil.
-- jason
[1] Also worth noting, Mat's dice stop when he walks in the room,
indicating that his marriage to tDot9M is fated, rather than just a
self-fulfilling prophesy.
[2] The carving on the ring is of a fox, ravens, and moons. Ravens for
Seanchan, moons for tDot9M, and Tylin later refers to Mat as a fox (page
582.) Hmm...
[3] Will she be happy when she finds out that Mat is so kind to damane
that he goes around freeing them?
Maccabeus Epimanes
Jason Kraftcheck <ja...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu> wrote:
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> SPOILER SPACE
> What is her fate, that she doesn't want anyone to know about it? Does
> it involve Mat? She certainly shows a lot of interest in Mat. They
> first meet in Chapter 17, page 370.[1] She examines him, particularly
> his ring, and offers to buy him. Is there something about him, or the
> ring that relates somehow to the damane's Foretelling? She seems a
bit
> young to be buying "pets" regularly, and Mat walked into the room
> covered with mud, injured, and behaving in what must have seemed to
the
> others as rude or inappropriately. Not the best first impression.
Are you sure?
Tuon is the pampered daughter of an immensely powerful ruler. Mat is
an adventurous rake. Perhaps she sees him as "forbidden fruit"--it's
happened often enough. The Rand/Elayne situation, at least at first
meeting, wasn't that different except in degree (Elayne being the
Daughter-Heir of what amounts to a third-world country compared to
Seanchan).
> Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later (588)
> when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
> Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
> whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap
> her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot
say
> that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What? WTF are
> you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I reading
> too much into this, or is there some special significance to him
saying
> that? Egeanin's reaction cannot be due to Tuon's Foretelling, because
> she doesn't know about it, but this is still interesting as an aside.
It's the forbidden fruit thing again. The Daughter of the Nine Moons
marry a dirty peasant from a land in rebellion against the Crystal
Throne? Unthinkable! Mat could be executed for even _thinking_ it, if
it showed in his reactions.
--
Maccabeus Epimanes
Hammer of the Light
"It is time for judgement to begin with the House of God." 1 Peter 4:17
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jason Kraftcheck
But does Tuon really know Mat as either an "adventurous rake" or a
"dirty peasant". I would think she would see him as Tylin's dandy.
Dressed up in lace and all, except for their first meeting where he was
literally dirty (mud on his face, etc.) Besides Tuon seems to show a
bit more responsibility then Elayne has until recently.
-- jason
Kevin Bangerter
Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
<3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
>I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
>lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
>feature-length lame post.
>
>SPOILER SPACE
>(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
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>While Jordan has answered a lot of mysteries in WH, he did give us one
>or two new ones. One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
>characters in WH, Tuon.
Sorry I'm not responding to your post point by point. I wrote this
speculation on Tuon earlier and just checked to see if anyone wrote the same
thing and you beat me to it. You bring out some of the same points I do, but
there are also some unique points to both our posts. I'll just drop this in
as is. I think it pretty much addresses all your questions, albeit in a
different order. I'll address anything in your post that I missed in my
tirade at the bottom.
This is an attempt to put together some obvious facts, not so obvious
speculation, and a little bit of looney theory on my part, to figure out
what's up with the Daughter of the Nine Moons.
There seem to be two motivating factors that drive Tuon's action's in this
book (Winter's Heart) and probably much of the next; Compulsion and
prophecy.
We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel before
the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328. When Tuon talks
about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On p. 329, " Anath's mood
changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost
possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel of
ownership might have only been in Tuon's mind. 'You must be careful,' Anath
purred. 'You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it is
too late for him to escape.'"
Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's shoulder.
Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling in
Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
The Seanchan prophecy of the Dragon Reborn is not the only prophecy
motivating Tuon. We are made aware of this other prophecy on p.324, from
Tuon's POV, "She had commanded the damane to read her fortune, and she
should not have ordered her caned because she disliked what she heard." From
this we know that she had received what Aes Sedai call a Foretelling. We
also know she did not like what she heard. She was mad enough that her
reaction was out of line with whatever standards her culture or she herself
has set, so she punishes herself for it. This is verified by Anath on p.327,
"You hide your face - in a way - and now you are just the High Lady Tuon.
Except that everyone still knows who you really are, even if they won't
mention it. How long do you intend carrying on this farce? I suppose this
idiocy is over having the damane caned. You are a fool to think your eyes
are downcast by a little thing like that. What did she say to make you
angry? No one seems to know, except that you threw a tantrum I am sorry to
have missed."
Tuon's response, "I will wear the veil until an omen tells me the time has
come to remove it, Anath," tells us that Tuon expects to see an omen soon. I
am guessing that the omen she is looking for is fulfillment of her
Foretelling. I am sure that Mat has something to do with it. Notice the
immediate interest Tuon has for Mat when they first meet. On the bottom of
p.370 she asks about his loyalty to the Seanchan. On the top of p.371 she
examines Mat's neck. On p.387, she asks about his finn spear and he
involuntarily touches his neck again.
Tuon seems to suspect that Mat is the guy (omen) all along, but she never
quite has enough proof. Mat comments throughout this section that he sees
her a little too often. As examples, see p.386, 388, 404, 543, and finally
584.
Tuon has shared the prophecy and her suspicions regarding Mat with Selucia.
Otherwise, why doesn't she do something when she discovers Mat has captured
Tuon on p.589? I don't see a Seanchan bodyguard, especially for the Daughter
of the Nine Moons, to not at least try to protect her "client" for lack of a
better term. And note her remarks at this time, "Whatever the omens, this
can still be rectified if you will only consent to draw back." which means
either Selucia was there when the Foretelling took place or Tuon told her
about it.
Tuon, throughout these chapters, tries to act like she has no interest in
Mat, when in reality she does. She follows him, watches him, asks a few
questions, and then walks away with an unchanging and unreadable expression.
Only after she has heard Mat call her his wife and says he is taking her
with them does this change. On p. 590, " At last, Tuon showed expression.
She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a secret." Thus, she had seen her omen.
A part of her foretelling had become true.
With this information, the puzzle is almost complete. Only a few pieces are
missing. What was the exact wording of the foretelling? What is Anath's roll
going to be? How will the sad bracelets, the seeker's investigation into
Egeanin, and the secret of the a'dam, which is so dangerous to the Seanchan
Empire going to play into all this. This last one is important to Tuon. On
p.325, she has tested to be a sul'dam and has since trained damane. Only her
position keeps her from becoming a sul'dam. She can channel.
So here's how this plot thread shakes down:
-Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
-Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
"Your future kidnapper and husband
possessing an ancient spear
and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
will take you away to join him
as enemies of the Crystal throne."
among other things.
-Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
-The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
-Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve joins
the 2R kids in TEotW.
-Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
collar Rand.
-Action ensues
So whatcha think? Looney enough?
Anyway, back to Jason's post...
>This quote also indicates that Tuon
>isn't sharing here fortune with anyone. She says more to indicate that
>on page 328: "Only luck had kept anyone from overhearing Lidya's cryptic
>words ... if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been
>chattering behind their hands about her fate."
>
>What is her fate, that she doesn't want anyone to know about it?
No one seems to share any foretelling. You are either there to here it, or
you're not.
> Anyway, Mat comes real close to calling her a fool
>here, "I will give you ten times the price you paid", "Only a fool would
>pay it one time, let alone ten." She leaves the room without a word.
She always leaves Mat like that. She seems to be trying to keep herself a
mystery to him until she knows what she needs to know about him.
>Their next encounter when he is leaving the damane kennels (page 404) is
>interesting as well, particularly her reaction after he explains what he
>was doing there. "The stern judicial mask the girl always wore for a
>face had melted into a smile. She really was beautiful.
>'That is very kind of you,' she said. 'It's good to know you are kind
>to damane. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take
>damane to their beds.'" Why the big smile?
Because she had finally found a redeeming quality about him. Her impression
of him was previously limited to an oft-mud-covered scoundrel and boy toy to
Tylin.
> One explanation is that she
>is relieved she won't have to have him executed, which might cause
>problems with Tylin.
Or with her foretelling.
>Tuon says, "So you ARE intending to leave. I cannot allow that, Toy."
>Why can't she allow him to leave? She *cannot* allow it.
The Foretelling.
That, and he was taking sul'dam and damane with him.
But mostly the first.
>Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later (588)
>when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
>Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
>whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap
>her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot say
>that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What? WTF are
>you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I reading
>too much into this, or is there some special significance to him saying
>that?
Mat would be guilty of impersonating one of the Blood by saying that. I am
sure that you would have to be Blood to marry tDotNM.
>In the end of the scene (page 589), Mat announces that they are taking
>Tuon with them. Tuon's reaction: "She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a
>secret. She smiled, and he shivered. Oh, Light, how he shivered." Was
>there something in her smile that made Mat shiver, or is that just his
>reaction to his fate and her smiling about it. Why did she smile about
>this? A couple of explanations:
> 1. She is considering all the not-so-nice things she intends to
> do to Mat when she gets free. This might account for the
> shivering.
> 2. On page 328, "'I must find a way to make contact with the
> Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before
> the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.'
> The prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.". Did she
> somehow find out that Mat is a friend of the Dragon? The
> serious tone of the quote seems to indicate she will do
> whatever is necessary to contact Rand.
> 3. She is actually happy about him taking her along, for
> whatever reason she has taken so much interest in him.
I think the reason in #3 would be fulfillment of the foretelling. The
foretelling leads to #1 and #2, at least, in her mind.
-kgb
Joe Goyette
ok enough
Jason Kraftcheck wrote:
<SNIP>
> The Foretelling relates somehow to Tuon wearing a veil. Given all of
> this, I'm guessing that the Foretelling:
> 1. Has something to do with Mat, and had some fact like his
> name or his ring or something to identify him to Tuon.
> 2. Gave some indication of the events involving Tuon's
> kidnapping by Mat, and a less than tragic ending for Tuon.
> 3. Says something (possibly unrelated) about Tuon wearing a veil.
I think the Foretelling was something along the lines of:
"You will meet a man blah blah ring, marriage, blah blah, who will
lead you to the Dragon Reborn."
This would explain many things if she thinks Mat will lead her to
the Dragon Reborn. We KNOW that that is her goal. I think her
smile when he said they would take her with them also has to do
with this. The Dragon obviously isn't hanging around the palace,
so she will have to go somewhere to find him.
Keith Higginson
"Kevin Bangerter" <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
spoilers
> >[...] One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
> >characters in WH, Tuon.
>
> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
> before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
> When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
> p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
de facto.
Here's a question for Jordan, if anyone wants to ask it. We know that
the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle is different from the
mainland's. How old is that rift? How well-known was the text? Was
it possible for Semhirage to corrupt it herself in the time she has
been active?
Keith Higginson
--
Keith Higginson
I am using web-based servers while I get set up at home. It may take a
while. For now, please direct email to higgi...@hotmail.com.
Erick N. Viorritto
In article <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>, Jason Kraftcheck
<ja...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Stringing all this together like a bad conspiracy theory, I'm guessing
> that the Foretelling about Tuon definitely concerned Mat. Why is she so
> interested in him, if not for the Foretelling?
I think that is reasonable. It adds a nice touch actually. Both
characters get their futures told, find out they are going to get married
to someone, and for one reason or another don't like what they hear. Mat
goes around for a while trying to avoid his fate ("You aren't the DotNM,
are you?"), and I imagine so does Tuon ("You don't have a fox and raven
ring, do you?") Eventually they find each other, realize that each is the
person that was foretold, and accept their situation.
-Erick Viorritto
Jason Kraftcheck
>
[Tuon stuff]
>
> Here's a question for Jordan, if anyone wants to ask it. We know that
> the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle is different from the
> mainland's. How old is that rift? How well-known was the text? Was
> it possible for Semhirage to corrupt it herself in the time she has
> been active?
>
It might have been changed by Imperial decree. Maybe it bothered some
Emperor/Empress that the Dragon would lead the forces of light. The
Seanchan seem to think the Emperor/Empress is the rightful ruler of
everything, so the Emperor just added a bit about how the Dragon would
kneel to the Emperess/Emperor. Depending on literacy and the availability
of books and such in Seanchan[1], this might have been pretty trivial.
e.g. There are only two copies of the prophesy and they're both in the
Imperial Palace/whatever.
-- jason
Jason Kraftcheck
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[snip]
>
> There seem to be two motivating factors that drive Tuon's action's in this
> book (Winter's Heart) and probably much of the next; Compulsion and
> prophecy.
>
> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel before
> the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328. When Tuon talks
> about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On p. 329, " Anath's mood
> changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost
> possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel of
> ownership might have only been in Tuon's mind. 'You must be careful,' Anath
> purred. 'You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it is
> too late for him to escape.'"
>
> Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's shoulder.
> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling in
> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
>
Wouldn't it be dangerous for Anath/Semirhage to be channeling with damane
and sul'dam aboard the ship? If any of them saw or felt her channel, she
could end up with a new necklace in a hurry. I don't think it is possible
for her to hide the fact that she is channeling, or at least we haven't
seen anyone do it yet. we've seen characters invert a weave to hide the
weave, and use a weave to hide the ability to channel, but never to
actually hide the fact that they are channeling.
-- jason
Sarah Coit
> I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> feature-length lame post.
>
> SPOILER SPACE
> (Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Much snippage. Sorry.]
>
>
> Their next and last meeting is when he is leaving the Palace (page
> 584). I think this meeting is just one too many coincidences. There
> can't be any doubt that she is following him, and that she is apparently
> alone most of the time she is doing it. An earlier quote also indicates
> that whatever Tuon's reasons for her interest in Mat, she seems to be
> keeping her interest to herself. In the scene with the /ashandarei/
> (pages 386-7) Mat thinks, "Tylin said [Tuon] had never asked about [Mat]
> or mentioned him since the offer of purchase."
Bit of a nitpick, here. Tuon might not have asked about Mat in
person, but the Seanchan have had spies operating in the area for
some time now, and Tuon has her own spies. It's possible she could
have learned more about Mat through more subtle channels.
> Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later (588)
> when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
> Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
> whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap
> her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot
> say that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What? WTF
> are you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I
> reading too much into this, or is there some special significance to
> him saying that? Egeanin's reaction cannot be due to Tuon's
> Foretelling, because she doesn't know about it, but this is still
> interesting as an aside.
I read it as ominous as well. It might just be that some dressed-up
commoner should not talk about the DotNM that way, or it might be
something more sinister. I find myself wondering who Tuon's father
was, and what happened to him. He has never been mentioned.
> Another tenuous bit about the foretelling is the reference to 'omens'
> made it two different places. The quotes are on page 386, when Anath
> again tells Tuon to stop with the veil thing, and Tuon answers "The
> omens say otherwise, Anath." and on page 588, when Mat has Tuon
> prisoner, and Selucia says, "Whatever the omens, this can still be
> rectified if you will only consent to draw back." Assuming 'omens'
> refers to something significant, rather than some silly Seanchan
> superstition, the first quote might relate the veil-wearing to the
> Foretelling. This might not relate to Mat in any way, but does tell us
> a little more about the Foretelling. Having the veil related to the
> Foretelling would give Tuon a little more justification in refusing to
> take Anath's advice in this regard. If it is related to the
> Foretelling, it also shows that Tuon still hasn't told Anath anything
> about the Foretelling.
I suspect she was referring to mundane omens. She really does seem
superstitious, with ants, and beetles and dolphins having meanings.
Under the circumstances, that isn't unreasonable. Considering the
number of Ta'veren and the effect fate is having on people's lives,
following omens we'd overlook starts to seem sensible.
> Tuon doesn't want anyone to know the nature of the Foretelling about
> her. There isn't a good explanation for Tuon's interest in Mat, and
> keeping it quite, other than the Foretelling. Tuon is oddly happy about
> Mat being kind to damane[3]. The Foretelling relates to the her being a
> prisoner of Mat's somehow. She smiled for some reason when Mat said he
> would be taking her with them when they left, rather than leaving her in
> the stables. There was something really upsetting in the Foretelling.
> The Foretelling relates somehow to Tuon wearing a veil. Given all of
> this, I'm guessing that the Foretelling:
> 1. Has something to do with Mat, and had some fact like his
> name or his ring or something to identify him to Tuon.
> 2. Gave some indication of the events involving Tuon's
> kidnapping by Mat, and a less than tragic ending for Tuon.
> 3. Says something (possibly unrelated) about Tuon wearing a veil.
I'd say the veil is probably a coincidence. She put it on to help
restore her balance. I don't feel that it is related to the foretelling.
-Sarah
Ayende Rahien
"Jason Kraftcheck" <ja...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:3A12C9E4...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu...
> Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >SPOILER SPACE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> [snip]
> >
this
> > book (Winter's Heart) and probably much of the next; Compulsion and
> > prophecy.
> >
> > We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
before
> > the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328. When Tuon
talks
> > about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On p. 329, " Anath's
mood
> > changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost
> > possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel
of
> > ownership might have only been in Tuon's mind. 'You must be careful,'
Anath
> > purred. 'You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until
it is
> > too late for him to escape.'"
> >
> > Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's
shoulder.
> > Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling
in
> > Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
> > ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
> >
>
> and sul'dam aboard the ship? If any of them saw or felt her channel, she
> could end up with a new necklace in a hurry. I don't think it is possible
> for her to hide the fact that she is channeling, or at least we haven't
> seen anyone do it yet. we've seen characters invert a weave to hide the
> weave, and use a weave to hide the ability to channel, but never to
> actually hide the fact that they are channeling.
Graendel did just that near SL, and she couldn't have used the True Power,
so we know it is possible.
Sarah Coit
>
> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
> >I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> >feature-length lame post.
> >
> >SPOILER SPACE
> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >While Jordan has answered a lot of mysteries in WH, he did give us one
> >or two new ones. One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
> >characters in WH, Tuon.
>
> There seem to be two motivating factors that drive Tuon's action's in this
> book (Winter's Heart) and probably much of the next; Compulsion and
> prophecy.
>
> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel before
> the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328. When Tuon talks
> about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On p. 329, " Anath's mood
> changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost
> possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel of
> ownership might have only been in Tuon's mind. 'You must be careful,' Anath
> purred. 'You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it is
> too late for him to escape.'"
>
> Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's shoulder.
> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling in
> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
Hard to do, under the circumstances. She would have to channel
Saidar around any number of damane. While there is some indication
that it might be possible to channel Saidar without anyone noticing,
it would still be difficult. Also, Tuon isn't acting like most
of the compulsees we've seen so far, and Semi has admitted that
she is having a hard time controlling her. It's possible that
Semi is just an incredibly subtle user of Compulsion, but until
we see more evidence I'm going to have to assume that she is
just manipulating Tuon.
BTW, am I the only one who was annoyed by the thought that women
might be able to channel without detection? That seems another
weak change to the rules of channeling.
[much snippage]
> With this information, the puzzle is almost complete. Only a few pieces are
> missing. What was the exact wording of the foretelling? What is Anath's roll
> going to be? How will the sad bracelets, the seeker's investigation into
> Egeanin, and the secret of the a'dam, which is so dangerous to the Seanchan
> Empire going to play into all this. This last one is important to Tuon. On
> p.325, she has tested to be a sul'dam and has since trained damane. Only her
> position keeps her from becoming a sul'dam. She can channel.
>
> So here's how this plot thread shakes down:
> -Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
> -Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
> "Your future kidnapper and husband
> possessing an ancient spear
> and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
> will take you away to join him
> as enemies of the Crystal throne."
> among other things.
> -Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
> -The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
> -Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve joins
> the 2R kids in TEotW.
> -Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
> collar Rand.
> -Action ensues
>
> So whatcha think? Looney enough?
I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason. Aside
from the fact that I like her, it would take 4 books to get sorted
out unless RJ decides that she'll abandon her claim to the Crystal
Throne and live as Mat's housewife.
It occurs to me, in a looney way, that Tuon might actually have the
sad bracelets on her. That's not too likely, though.
-Sarah
Sarah Coit
> In article <0ppQ5.829$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Kevin Bangerter" <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> > Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> > <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
>
>
> spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >[...] One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
> > >characters in WH, Tuon.
> >
> > We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
> > before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
> > When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
> > p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
>
> Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
> the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
> might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
> converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
> de facto.
>
> Here's a question for Jordan, if anyone wants to ask it. We know that
> the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle is different from the
> mainland's. How old is that rift? How well-known was the text? Was
> it possible for Semhirage to corrupt it herself in the time she has
> been active?
Actually, I suspect the hand of Ishamael here. We know that he
influenced Artur Hawkwing, and it is quite conceivable that
he initiated a change in the Prophecies in order to make things
difficult for the Dragon in the end. I don't see how Semi could
have done this in the 2 years she's been free.
Of course, there is the slightest possibility that the Seanchan
have the right version, and everyone else's is wrong. ;)
-Sarah
Kevin Bangerter
Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
>Kevin Bangerter wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >SPOILER SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>[snip]
>>
this
>> book (Winter's Heart) and probably much of the next; Compulsion and
>> prophecy.
>>
>> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
before
>> the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328. When Tuon
talks
>> about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On p. 329, " Anath's
mood
>> changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost
>> possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel
of
>> ownership might have only been in Tuon's mind. 'You must be careful,'
Anath
>> purred. 'You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it
is
>> too late for him to escape.'"
>>
>> Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's
shoulder.
>> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling
in
>> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
>> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
>>
>
>and sul'dam aboard the ship? If any of them saw or felt her channel, she
>could end up with a new necklace in a hurry. I don't think it is possible
>for her to hide the fact that she is channeling, or at least we haven't
>seen anyone do it yet. we've seen characters invert a weave to hide the
>weave, and use a weave to hide the ability to channel, but never to
>actually hide the fact that they are channeling.
I think the channeling required for Compulsion is very small. On the off
chance a damane could feel it, she would not know where it was coming from.
If Anath really screws up and does this next to a damane, is the damane
going to have the balls to point the finger at the Daughter of the Nine
Moon's Truth-speaker if she cannot even detect the ability to channel in
her?
-kgb
Kevin Bangerter
Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Kevin Bangerter wrote:
>
>>
>> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
>> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
>> >I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
>> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
>> >feature-length lame post.
>> >
>> >SPOILER SPACE
>> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's
shoulder.
>> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling
in
>> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
>> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
>
>Hard to do, under the circumstances. She would have to channel
>Saidar around any number of damane. While there is some indication
>that it might be possible to channel Saidar without anyone noticing,
>it would still be difficult. Also, Tuon isn't acting like most
>of the compulsees we've seen so far, and Semi has admitted that
>she is having a hard time controlling her. It's possible that
>Semi is just an incredibly subtle user of Compulsion, but until
>we see more evidence I'm going to have to assume that she is
>just manipulating Tuon.
I addressed this in another post above.
>> So here's how this plot thread shakes down:
>> -Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
>> -Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
>> "Your future kidnapper and husband
>> possessing an ancient spear
>> and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
>> will take you away to join him
>> as enemies of the Crystal throne."
>> among other things.
>> -Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
>> -The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
>> -Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve
joins
>> the 2R kids in TEotW.
>> -Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
>> collar Rand.
>> -Action ensues
>>
>> So whatcha think? Looney enough?
>
>I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason.
She is leaving Ebou Dar with a group that includes stolen damane, rebel
sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
else that would cause her reaction.
-kgb
Joe Goyette
>
> Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> >On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
> >> >I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> >> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> >> >feature-length lame post.
> >> >
> >> >SPOILER SPACE
> >> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
>
> shoulder.
> >> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling
> in
> >> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
> >> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
> >
> >Saidar around any number of damane. While there is some indication
> >that it might be possible to channel Saidar without anyone noticing,
> >it would still be difficult. Also, Tuon isn't acting like most
> >of the compulsees we've seen so far, and Semi has admitted that
> >she is having a hard time controlling her. It's possible that
> >Semi is just an incredibly subtle user of Compulsion, but until
> >we see more evidence I'm going to have to assume that she is
> >just manipulating Tuon.
>
> I addressed this in another post above.
>
> >> -Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
> >> -Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
> >> "Your future kidnapper and husband
> >> possessing an ancient spear
> >> and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
> >> will take you away to join him
> >> as enemies of the Crystal throne."
> >> among other things.
> >> -Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
> >> -The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
> >> -Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve
> joins
> >> the 2R kids in TEotW.
> >> -Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
> >> collar Rand.
> >> -Action ensues
> >>
> >> So whatcha think? Looney enough?
> >
>
> She is leaving Ebou Dar with a group that includes stolen damane, rebel
> sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
> does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
> she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
> going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
> else that would cause her reaction.
>
> -kgb
I don't think she will be accused of treason.
1) Tylin is tied up under her bed. She can vouch for Tuon.
2) She is accompanied now by Suroth's sul'dam.
She can always say that she was kidnapped. She has Tylin to back her up.
She can also prove now that Suroth was keeping the sul'dam channelers
secret, since she has the ones Suroth had.
Ryan Klippenstine
<the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
spoilerspace follows
>She is leaving Ebou Dar with a group that includes stolen damane, rebel
>sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
>does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
>she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
>going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
>else that would cause her reaction.
Why would anyone think she had left willingly? Unless Mat unties her,
sets her on his lap, and parades through the city with her cooing
sweet nothings in his ear, the Seanchan will assume that she has been
kidnapped.
--
ry...@westman.wave.ca
"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be
persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right."
-Robert Park, of the American Physical Society
Sarah Coit
> Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> >
> > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > >>
> > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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> > >> >
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> > >
> > >I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason.
> >
> > She is leaving Ebou Dar with a group that includes stolen damane, rebel
> > sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
> > does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
> > she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
> > going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
> > else that would cause her reaction.
>
> I don't think she will be accused of treason.
>
> 1) Tylin is tied up under her bed. She can vouch for Tuon.
> 2) She is accompanied now by Suroth's sul'dam.
>
> She can always say that she was kidnapped. She has Tylin to back her up.
> She can also prove now that Suroth was keeping the sul'dam channelers
> secret, since she has the ones Suroth had.
Unfortunately, I don't know what Tylin's opinion is going to
be worth. To start with, she would have to prove that Tuon
*didn't* do anything wrong. It is very, very hard to prove
a negative. And when the Seekers start asking questions, it's
likely to come out that Tylin let herself be tied up. Tylin
is likely to be accused of treason, and that wouldn't help
Tuon's case at all.
The fact that she is accompanied by Suroth's sul'dam is likely
to count against Tuon. That Seeker had a really whacked out
conspiracy theory centered around damane who were once Aes Sedai,
sul'dam who knew a secret, Egeanin, and Domon Bayle. He thought
that Suroth was part of a treasonous conspiracy, and Bethamin
read suspicion of Tuon in his words. The fact that Tuon
disappeared along with all of these people is going to make
it look as though Bethamin told Egeanin & Tuon that their
plot was discovered and that they fled for their lives,
with their Aes Sedai allies, no less.
I wish it weren't so, but I suspect that it is.
I think Tuon's best hope, ironically enough, is Anath. Semi
might be able to swing opinion in Tuon's favor. The only
problem is whether or not she would bother to do so once
her willful charge charges off.
-Sarah
John Hamby
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:52:04 GMT, Keith Higginson
> <higgi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> spoilers
> *
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
>
> >> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
> >> before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
> >> When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
> >> p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
>
> >Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
> >the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
> >might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
> >converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
> >de facto.
>
> I doubt Semirhage perverted that prophecy.
> It was probably done by Ishamael the last time he was loose.
>
> The Randland Proper version says that the Dragon will bind the Nine
> Moons to him. The Seanchan version says the Dragon will bow to the
> Crystal Throne. That's something that has to be very old.
It could also be a limited vision interpretation.
The Crystal Throne is viewed as all powerful,
so any Prophecy dealing with it is going to be
skewed.
Consider that the Seanchan have the male
a'dam. Consider that Tuon can be bound to it.
And while the end result may be that Rand will
bind the Nine Moons to him, it may be that while
collared by the a'dam he bows to the Crystal Throne
first, before he is able to reverse the control of the
a'dam to bind Tuon to him instead.
Both prophecies can be right.
---
JSH
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Ayende Rahien
"Sarah Coit" <sc...@hsph.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.4.05.100111...@hsph.harvard.edu...
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Joe Goyette wrote:
>
> > Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> > >
> > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > >>
> > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > > >> >
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> The fact that she is accompanied by Suroth's sul'dam is likely
> to count against Tuon. That Seeker had a really whacked out
> conspiracy theory centered around damane who were once Aes Sedai,
> sul'dam who knew a secret, Egeanin, and Domon Bayle. He thought
> that Suroth was part of a treasonous conspiracy, and Bethamin
> read suspicion of Tuon in his words. The fact that Tuon
> disappeared along with all of these people is going to make
> it look as though Bethamin told Egeanin & Tuon that their
> plot was discovered and that they fled for their lives,
> with their Aes Sedai allies, no less.
The problem with this is that it's just that one seeker.
And Mat doesn't care one bit about Seanchan's customs.
I think that if that seeker will try to cause problem (torturing Mat's wife
count for trouble, I think) that guy might very well face someone who can
beat up one of the best trained woman in hand to hand combat, namely Tuon.
We know she is very good, and Mat was better.
I don't think that he would survive long.
John S. Novak, III
<higgi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
spoilers
>> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
>> before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
>> When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
>> p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
>Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
>the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
>might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
>converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
>de facto.
I doubt Semirhage perverted that prophecy.
It was probably done by Ishamael the last time he was loose.
The Randland Proper version says that the Dragon will bind the Nine
Moons to him. The Seanchan version says the Dragon will bow to the
Crystal Throne. That's something that has to be very old.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
The Humblest Man on the Net
Mr. Whitecloak
But you can't fault people for not seeing that. If you don't read
between the lines, Ishamael's the Limper of the gang. But aparantly the
man has done something that warrants being made Naeblis, entitles him to
set official policy, etc... so there you are.
But a socio-political haymaker like that, set up a milenia in
advance, timed to arive _just_ then... Damn that's evil.
--
Mr. Whitecloak
Hurray for Our Side!
Kevin Bangerter
Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
<3a130698...@news.westman.wave.ca>...
>On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:03:20 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
><the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>spoilerspace follows
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
>>does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
>>she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
>>going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
>>else that would cause her reaction.
>
>sets her on his lap, and parades through the city with her cooing
>sweet nothings in his ear, the Seanchan will assume that she has been
>kidnapped.
The Seanchan left in charge in Ebou Dar are darkfriends. Even if Suroth
doesn't know, at least Anath should know who Mat is and what his
significance is. They will spin whatever tale they want. The fact that
before the kidnapping has even taken place, the seeker is already onto
Egeanin, and likely after Tuon, which means this scenario is the perfect
oportunity for the darkfriends to spring their accusations. Knock off
whoever is at the top of the political ladder and everyone gets to take a
step up. This is why the Seanchan, especially Suroth, will jump on the
chance to accuse Tuon of treason.
-kgb
Ryan Klippenstine
<the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
><3a130698...@news.westman.wave.ca>...
>>spoilerspace follows
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
<snip Tuon leaving Ebou Dar with Mat>
>>Why would anyone think she had left willingly? Unless Mat unties her,
>>sets her on his lap, and parades through the city with her cooing
>>sweet nothings in his ear, the Seanchan will assume that she has been
>>kidnapped.
>
>
>The Seanchan left in charge in Ebou Dar are darkfriends. Even if Suroth
>doesn't know, at least Anath should know who Mat is and what his
>significance is. They will spin whatever tale they want.
Without compelling evidence to suggest that Tuon is collaborating with
Mat and Co., Suroth might as well claim that Tuon is an Ogier as a
traitor. And it would have to be _damn_ compelling evidence; who's
going to believe that the leader of the Corenne and the heir-apparent
to the Crystal Throne is a traitor to her own inheritance? What could
she possibly gain?
If and when Tuon returns to the Seanchan advocating alliance with the
Dragon and the manumission of the damane, Suroth will almost certainly
try this. It might even make for a nice subplot, with factions loyal
to Tuon battling traditionalists and darkfriends supporting Suroth.
But accusing her of treason right off the bat would make no sense.
>The fact that
>before the kidnapping has even taken place, the seeker is already onto
>Egeanin, and likely after Tuon,
The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon. And wouldn't he find it
interesting if Suroth's immediate reaction after Tuon's disappearance
is to declare her a traitor and seize power for herself?
>which means this scenario is the perfect
>oportunity for the darkfriends to spring their accusations. Knock off
>whoever is at the top of the political ladder and everyone gets to take a
>step up. This is why the Seanchan, especially Suroth, will jump on the
>chance to accuse Tuon of treason.
Except that if the Empress isn't convinced of the truth of the
charges, she will have every last one them flayed, rolled in salt, and
fed to grolm.
Joseph Slonimsky
Ryan Klippenstine wrote:
On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:44:59 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
<the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
<3a130698...@news.westman.wave.ca>...
spoilerspace follows
<snip a whole bunch of stuff>
The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon. And wouldn't he find it
interesting if Suroth's immediate reaction after Tuon's disappearance
is to declare her a traitor and seize power for herself?which means this scenario is the perfect
oportunity for the darkfriends to spring their accusations. Knock off
whoever is at the top of the political ladder and everyone gets to take a
step up. This is why the Seanchan, especially Suroth, will jump on the
chance to accuse Tuon of treason.
Except that if the Empress isn't convinced of the truth of the
charges, she will have every last one them flayed, rolled in salt, and
fed to grolm.
There would be different factions forming, and with Tuon and Suroth both gone, and with so many high blood around, there would be no clear sucessor to Tuon. Then Tuon would have to set about fighting to regain control, and with the knowledge of the Sul'dam being able to learn how to channel out there, when Tuon regains control with Mats military leadership help, Tuon will be forced to sever ties and rebel against her mother.
Holy shit, this actually sounds like it might be right.
in book 10, mat et al get Moiraine back, and have a fun time with Lucas show, while the seeker takes Suroth. (possibly touched off, by the dissapearence of Tuon in the first place)
in book 11, Mat hooks up with the Band of the Red Hand, which forms the nucleous of the Tuon forces, and then proceed onto a military campaign.
in book 12, the milirary campaign ends, they hook up with Rand so he can bind the nine moons to him.
in book 13, the last battle.
Hmm, knowing jordan though, the current at least three books will turn out to be 4 or 5
-krax
Ryan Klippenstine
wrote:
>spoilers
(removed, I think, but what the hey)
>
<snip alteration of the Karaethon Cycle in Seanchan>
>I doubt Semirhage perverted that prophecy.
>It was probably done by Ishamael the last time he was loose.
Why does any Forsaken have to be involved? I can very easily see the
Seanchan altering the text themselves. The idea of someone "bind[ing]
the nine moons to serve him" is doubleplusungoodthinkful.
Philippe Nachtergal
Sarah Coit <sc...@hsph.harvard.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Jason Kraftcheck wrote:
> >
> > SPOILER SPACE
> > (Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> [Much snippage. Sorry.]
> >
> >
> > Their next and last meeting is when he is leaving the Palace (page
> > 584). I think this meeting is just one too many coincidences.
There
> > can't be any doubt that she is following him, and that she is
apparently
> > alone most of the time she is doing it. An earlier quote also
indicates
> > that whatever Tuon's reasons for her interest in Mat, she seems to
be
> > keeping her interest to herself. In the scene with the /ashandarei/
> > (pages 386-7) Mat thinks, "Tylin said [Tuon] had never asked about
[Mat]
> > or mentioned him since the offer of purchase."
>
I believe there is some stuff that only Tuon and possibly her
Bodyguard/maid know.
I think that Tuon herself is doing the spying given how often Mat
happens to see her at the corner of an hallway.
>
> > Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later
(588)
> > when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
> > Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
> > whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to
slap
> > her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot
> > say that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What?
WTF
> > are you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I
> > reading too much into this, or is there some special significance to
> > him saying that? Egeanin's reaction cannot be due to Tuon's
> > Foretelling, because she doesn't know about it, but this is still
> > interesting as an aside.
>
> I read it as ominous as well. It might just be that some dressed-up
> commoner should not talk about the DotNM that way, or it might be
> something more sinister. I find myself wondering who Tuon's father
> was, and what happened to him. He has never been mentioned.
>
[...]
>
> I'd say the veil is probably a coincidence. She put it on to help
> restore her balance. I don't feel that it is related to the
foretelling.
>
> -Sarah
>
Personally i believe it is related to the veil : the moment Tuon's veil
was lifted, she became the Dot9m. There might be some kind of prophecy
like that the first man to claim the Dot9m will marry her ...
Or there might of course be a prophecy about what her husband will do
like loose half the light of the world to save the world or some
Ishamael's perverted prophecy.
Phoxtrot.
Adam Benedict Canning
Kevin Bangerter wrote:
>
> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
> >I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> >feature-length lame post.
> >
> >SPOILER SPACE
> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >While Jordan has answered a lot of mysteries in WH, he did give us one
> >or two new ones. One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
> >characters in WH, Tuon.
> So here's how this plot thread shakes down:
> -Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
Unlikely Eganin made a present of them to the Daughter of the Nine
Moons.
> -Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
> "Your future kidnapper and husband
> possessing an ancient spear
> and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
> will take you away to join him
> as enemies of the Crystal throne."
> among other things.
> -Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
> -The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
> -Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve joins
> the 2R kids in TEotW.
> -Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
> collar Rand.
> -Action ensues
> >This quote also indicates that Tuon
> >isn't sharing here fortune with anyone. She says more to indicate that
> >on page 328: "Only luck had kept anyone from overhearing Lidya's cryptic
> >words ... if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been
> >chattering behind their hands about her fate."
> >
> >What is her fate, that she doesn't want anyone to know about it?
>
> No one seems to share any foretelling. You are either there to here it, or
> you're not.
>
> > Anyway, Mat comes real close to calling her a fool
> >here, "I will give you ten times the price you paid", "Only a fool would
> >pay it one time, let alone ten." She leaves the room without a word.
>
> She always leaves Mat like that. She seems to be trying to keep herself a
> mystery to him until she knows what she needs to know about him.
Shades of Sorilea's advice to Cadsune.
> >Their next encounter when he is leaving the damane kennels (page 404) is
> >interesting as well, particularly her reaction after he explains what he
> >was doing there. "The stern judicial mask the girl always wore for a
> >face had melted into a smile. She really was beautiful.
> >'That is very kind of you,' she said. 'It's good to know you are kind
> >to damane. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take
> >damane to their beds.'" Why the big smile?
>
> Because she had finally found a redeeming quality about him. Her impression
> of him was previously limited to an oft-mud-covered scoundrel and boy toy to
> Tylin.
Because it is a trait she thinks she shares.
> >Tuon says, "So you ARE intending to leave. I cannot allow that, Toy."
> >Why can't she allow him to leave? She *cannot* allow it.
> The Foretelling.
> That, and he was taking sul'dam and damane with him.
> But mostly the first.
>
> >Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later (588)
> >when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
> >Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
> >whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to slap
> >her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot say
> >that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What? WTF are
> >you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I reading
> >too much into this, or is there some special significance to him saying
> >that?
>
> Mat would be guilty of impersonating one of the Blood by saying that. I am
> sure that you would have to be Blood to marry tDotNM.
Or like some forms of marriage vows all that is needed is for him to say
it without Tuon disagreeing.
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Keith Higginson wrote:
>
> In article <0ppQ5.829$S43....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Kevin Bangerter" <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >
> > Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> > <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
>
> spoilers
>
> > >[...] One involves the most interesting (IMHO) of the new
> > >characters in WH, Tuon.
> >
> > We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
> > before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
> > When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
> > p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
>
> Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
> the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
> might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
> converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
> de facto.
>
> Here's a question for Jordan, if anyone wants to ask it. We know that
> the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle is different from the
> mainland's. How old is that rift? How well-known was the text? Was
> it possible for Semhirage to corrupt it herself in the time she has
> been active?
>
Its the version Lothair brought with him. There is a reference to the
adulterated version previously in existance before he invaded.
Ishmael would seem to have given it to him.
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Sarah Coit wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Joe Goyette wrote:
>
> > Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> > >
> > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > >>
> > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
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> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >
> > > >I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason.
> I wish it weren't so, but I suspect that it is.
>
> I think Tuon's best hope, ironically enough, is Anath. Semi
> might be able to swing opinion in Tuon's favor. The only
> problem is whether or not she would bother to do so once
> her willful charge charges off.
Or Travelling home and gettin the word into her mothers ear first.
Suroth is after all guilty of treason, several times over, and Tuon
didin't take the Aes Sedai prisoners Suroth had [Remember the Seeker is
concerned about Ryma and Liandrin.]
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
He does boast about it though " I twitched and the Hawking sent his
armies over seas to set two dooms, the doom of the Hawkwings dream and
a doom to come."
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Ryan Klippenstine wrote:
>
> On 16 Nov 2000 01:51:51 GMT, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
> wrote:
>
> >spoilers
> (removed, I think, but what the hey)
> >
>
> <snip alteration of the Karaethon Cycle in Seanchan>
>
> >I doubt Semirhage perverted that prophecy.
> >It was probably done by Ishamael the last time he was loose.
>
> Why does any Forsaken have to be involved? I can very easily see the
> Seanchan altering the text themselves. The idea of someone "bind[ing]
> the nine moons to serve him" is doubleplusungoodthinkful.
Because the first reference in teh series to two different versions is
During Lothairs invasion. And we all believe Ishmael to have been active
around that time and he claimed responsibility.
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Suroth gets to be strangled or made Da'covale. Semiraghe is however
soe'feia and immune.
Adam
Adam Benedict Canning
Kevin Bangerter wrote:
>
> Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> >On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Kevin Bangerter wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> >> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
> >> >I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> >> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> >> >feature-length lame post.
> >> >
> >> >SPOILER SPACE
> >> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
>
> >> Halima touches Egwene's head and Anath (Semirhage) touches Tuon's
> shoulder.
> >> Both are followed by commands. Halima hides the weird channeling feeling
> in
> >> Egwene's head by using a scalp massage. Anath relies on a feeling of
> >> ownership in Tuon's mind. This, ladies and gentlemen, is Compulsion.
> >
> >Hard to do, under the circumstances. She would have to channel
> >Saidar around any number of damane. While there is some indication
> >that it might be possible to channel Saidar without anyone noticing,
> >it would still be difficult. Also, Tuon isn't acting like most
> >of the compulsees we've seen so far, and Semi has admitted that
> >she is having a hard time controlling her. It's possible that
> >Semi is just an incredibly subtle user of Compulsion, but until
> >we see more evidence I'm going to have to assume that she is
> >just manipulating Tuon.
>
> I addressed this in another post above.
>
> >> So here's how this plot thread shakes down:
> >> -Suroth has already given the sad bracelets to Anath.
> >> -Tuon has received a prophecy that basically says
> >> "Your future kidnapper and husband
> >> possessing an ancient spear
> >> and a scarf to hide the price he paid for it
> >> will take you away to join him
> >> as enemies of the Crystal throne."
> >> among other things.
> >> -Mat's motley crew escapes Ebou Dar (then shouts at the devil).
> >> -The whole group is declared traitors by Suroth and the Seekers.
> >> -Anath somehow joins up with the group. Probably the same way Nynaeve
> joins
> >> the 2R kids in TEotW.
> >> -Anath knows who Mat is and hangs out with him until she has a chance to
> >> collar Rand.
> >> -Action ensues
> >>
> >> So whatcha think? Looney enough?
> >
> >I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason.
>
> She is leaving Ebou Dar with a group that includes stolen damane, rebel
> sul'dam, and Egeanin, who is already under suspicion. I don't see how this
> does not cause problems with Tuon's credibility. Also, remember how angry
> she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
> going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
> else that would cause her reaction.
Either Your are going to marry a man without having any choice about it
or the truth about Sul'dam would do.
Adam
DR
could mean just the literal. Kneel, "hey empress, how you doing", unkneel.
Dave
in article 8uvgfq$bgk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, Mr. Whitecloak at
mr_whi...@my-deja.com wrote on 11/15/00 10:23 PM:
emc...@hamilton.edu
Spoilers.
[Prophecies of the Dragon]
> > The Randland Proper version says that the Dragon will bind the Nine
> > Moons to him. The Seanchan version says the Dragon will bow to the
> > Crystal Throne. That's something that has to be very old.
> It could also be a limited vision interpretation.
> The Crystal Throne is viewed as all powerful,
> so any Prophecy dealing with it is going to be
> skewed.
I tend to believe this rather than any of the more paranoid guesses
about who changed it. Much more likely that the Seanchan did it
themselves, although I'll readily admit that Ishamael might have done
it for them.
> Consider that the Seanchan have the male
> a'dam. Consider that Tuon can be bound to it.
> And while the end result may be that Rand will
> bind the Nine Moons to him, it may be that while
> collared by the a'dam he bows to the Crystal Throne
> first, before he is able to reverse the control of the
> a'dam to bind Tuon to him instead.
This seems very plausible. It probably won't turn out this way,
because it seems that RJ wants us to view the Randland Proper version
as the right one (and the Seanchan version as corrupt), but it might.
--
Eric McCoy <emc...@hamilton.edu>
In one gloss of the cut interstellarly I must immovable protect the
universe.
Sarah Coit
>
> Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >
> > > > >I really, really hope Tuon doesn't get accused of treason.
>
> >
> > I think Tuon's best hope, ironically enough, is Anath. Semi
> > might be able to swing opinion in Tuon's favor. The only
> > problem is whether or not she would bother to do so once
> > her willful charge charges off.
>
> Or Travelling home and gettin the word into her mothers ear first.
>
> Suroth is after all guilty of treason, several times over, and Tuon
> didin't take the Aes Sedai prisoners Suroth had [Remember the Seeker is
> concerned about Ryma and Liandrin.]
That might work. OTOH, the Empress, may she live forever, is not
a nice person. She would probably have Suroth killed, but she
would probably also not trust Tuon. She could just as easily
make Tuon Da'covale in a fit of pique or had her over to the
sul'dam.
Actually, I wonder whether the Empress might be a Darkfriend.
She has a seriously mean streak in her, and she did force
Tuon to take Anath. That might have been Compulsion, or
it might have been her own will.
-Sarah
Sarah Coit
>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
[snippage]
> > Also, remember how angry
> > she became upon hearing her foretelling. She probably already knows she is
> > going to lose her position among the Seanchan. I can't think of anything
> > else that would cause her reaction.
>
> Either Your are going to marry a man without having any choice about it
> or the truth about Sul'dam would do.
Probably, but it might not be that complicated. She might have been
told that she would marry a peasant, or that in order to win she
would have to lose everything. There are a few options that
wouldn't be quite so blatant as "you are going to marry Mat
Cauthon."
-Sarah
Sarah Coit
>
> >
> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:44:59 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
> > <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> > >before the kidnapping has even taken place, the seeker is already onto
> > >Egeanin, and likely after Tuon,
> >
> > The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon. And wouldn't he find it
> > interesting if Suroth's immediate reaction after Tuon's disappearance
> > is to declare her a traitor and seize power for herself?
Actually, the Seeker was after the head of the Conspiracy. He
wants Suroth, but he really wants to weed out the whole thing.
He is quite willing to consider that Tuon might be the head
of the Conspiracy, so she is far from safe. Since she
disappeared with the traitors, she may fall under suspicion.
> > Except that if the Empress isn't convinced of the truth of the >
> > charges, she will have every last one them flayed, rolled in salt, and
> > fed to grolm.
>
> Suroth gets to be strangled or made Da'covale. Semiraghe is however
> soe'feia and immune.
Not quite, I think. It is traditional among the Imperial Family
to allow soe'feia great leeway. The Imperials won't punish them
or reprimand them for their actions. That doesn't mean that the
Seekers, or anyone else, have the same restrictions. I could
easily picture the Seekers torturing a soe'feia to uncover a
plot against the Empress.
-Sarah
Janet Quick
> From: Jason Kraftcheck <ja...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>
> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan
> Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 01:56:33 GMT
> Subject: (SPOILERS) What's up with Tuon? (long)
>
> I've lurked here for off an on for a few years now, making about one
> lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for a
> feature-length lame post.
>
> SPOILER SPACE
> (Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--snippage--
>
> Their next encounter when he is leaving the damane kennels (page 404) is
> interesting as well, particularly her reaction after he explains what he
> was doing there. "The stern judicial mask the girl always wore for a
> face had melted into a smile. She really was beautiful.
> 'That is very kind of you,' she said. 'It's good to know you are kind
> to damane. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take
> damane to their beds.'" Why the big smile? One explanation is that she
> is relieved she won't have to have him executed, which might cause
> problems with Tylin. Another is that she just likes people being kind
> to damane. But maybe she is relieved to know that he isn't a pervert.
> Or maybe it makes her happy that *he* is kind to damane. Several of
> these might be true, but I think at least the last one is because she
> says, "It's good to know *you* are kind to damane." (emphasis mine).
>
Because she will become his damane
Janet Q.
Janet Quick
> From: ry...@westman.wave.ca (Ryan Klippenstine)
> Organization: MTS Internet
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan
> Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 06:17:18 GMT
> Subject: Re: (SPOILERS) What's up with Tuon? (long)
>
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:44:59 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
> <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
>> <3a130698...@news.westman.wave.ca>...
>>> spoilerspace follows
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> <snip Tuon leaving Ebou Dar with Mat>
>
>>> Why would anyone think she had left willingly? Unless Mat unties her,
>>> sets her on his lap, and parades through the city with her cooing
>>> sweet nothings in his ear, the Seanchan will assume that she has been
>>> kidnapped.
>>
>>
>> The Seanchan left in charge in Ebou Dar are darkfriends. Even if Suroth
>> doesn't know, at least Anath should know who Mat is and what his
>> significance is. They will spin whatever tale they want.
>
> Without compelling evidence to suggest that Tuon is collaborating with
> Mat and Co., Suroth might as well claim that Tuon is an Ogier as a
> traitor. And it would have to be _damn_ compelling evidence; who's
> going to believe that the leader of the Corenne and the heir-apparent
> to the Crystal Throne is a traitor to her own inheritance? What could
> she possibly gain?
>
When Tuon returns with Mat as husband and the Dragon Reborn as husband's
friend, I don't think she will be considered a traitor.
Janet Q.
Marina Izrailevich
Remember that Tuon had her future read during the trip over, and the results
upset her greatly. My guess would be it is related to her marriage etc...
"Philippe Nachtergal" <pe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8v0d0f$13e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <Pine.SV4.4.05.100111...@hsph.harvard.edu>,
> Sarah Coit <sc...@hsph.harvard.edu> wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Jason Kraftcheck wrote:
> > >
> > > SPOILER SPACE
> > > (Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > [Much snippage. Sorry.]
> > >
> > >
> > > Their next and last meeting is when he is leaving the Palace (page
> > > 584). I think this meeting is just one too many coincidences.
> There
> > > can't be any doubt that she is following him, and that she is
> apparently
> > > alone most of the time she is doing it. An earlier quote also
> indicates
> > > that whatever Tuon's reasons for her interest in Mat, she seems to
> be
> > > keeping her interest to herself. In the scene with the /ashandarei/
> > > (pages 386-7) Mat thinks, "Tylin said [Tuon] had never asked about
> [Mat]
> > > or mentioned him since the offer of purchase."
> >
> [...]
>
> I believe there is some stuff that only Tuon and possibly her
> Bodyguard/maid know.
>
> I think that Tuon herself is doing the spying given how often Mat
> happens to see her at the corner of an hallway.
>
> >
> > > Lots of interesting things in the same scene. A few pages later
> (588)
> > > when Mat finds out that Tuon is tDot9M, he says she is his wife.
> > > Egeanin's reaction is strange. "'What?' Egeanin squeaked, her head
> > > whipping toward him so fast that her tail of hair swung around to
> slap
> > > her face. He would not have thought she COULD squeak. 'You cannot
> > > say that! You MUST not say that.'" Egeanin doesn't say, "What?
> WTF
> > > are you talking about?.", she says, "You MUST not say that." Am I
> > > reading too much into this, or is there some special significance to
> > > him saying that? Egeanin's reaction cannot be due to Tuon's
> > > Foretelling, because she doesn't know about it, but this is still
> > > interesting as an aside.
> >
> > I read it as ominous as well. It might just be that some dressed-up
> > commoner should not talk about the DotNM that way, or it might be
> > something more sinister. I find myself wondering who Tuon's father
> > was, and what happened to him. He has never been mentioned.
> >
> [...]
>
>
> >
> > I'd say the veil is probably a coincidence. She put it on to help
> > restore her balance. I don't feel that it is related to the
> foretelling.
> >
> > -Sarah
> >
>
> Personally i believe it is related to the veil : the moment Tuon's veil
> was lifted, she became the Dot9m. There might be some kind of prophecy
> like that the first man to claim the Dot9m will marry her ...
>
> Or there might of course be a prophecy about what her husband will do
> like loose half the light of the world to save the world or some
> Ishamael's perverted prophecy.
>
>
> Phoxtrot.
>
>
Kevin Bangerter
Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>The Seanchan left in charge in Ebou Dar are darkfriends. Even if Suroth
>>doesn't know, at least Anath should know who Mat is and what his
>>significance is. They will spin whatever tale they want.
>
>Without compelling evidence to suggest that Tuon is collaborating with
>Mat and Co., Suroth might as well claim that Tuon is an Ogier as a
>traitor. And it would have to be _damn_ compelling evidence; who's
>going to believe that the leader of the Corenne and the heir-apparent
>to the Crystal Throne is a traitor to her own inheritance? What could
>she possibly gain?
>
>If and when Tuon returns to the Seanchan advocating alliance with the
>Dragon and the manumission of the damane, Suroth will almost certainly
>try this. It might even make for a nice subplot, with factions loyal
>to Tuon battling traditionalists and darkfriends supporting Suroth.
>But accusing her of treason right off the bat would make no sense.
Right. They'll probably wait til they find out who she's with now, and maybe
what they are trying to do, at least.
>>The fact that
>>before the kidnapping has even taken place, the seeker is already onto
>>Egeanin, and likely after Tuon,
>
>The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon.
No.
P.418, from the mouth of the Seeker, "Suroth may not even be that worm's
head. For the Empire's sake, I dare not take her (Egeanin) until I can kill
the whole worm. Egeanin is a thread I can follow to the worm, and you are a
thread to Egeanin."
So who is he going to find when he follows the thread through Bethamin and
Egeanin now?
And let me just say that I find "Egeanin is a thread I can follow to the
worm" to be the most sexually explicit sentence in the book.
-kgb
Leigh D. Butler
wrote:
<conflicting prophecy>
> The Randland Proper version says that the Dragon will bind the Nine
> Moons to him. The Seanchan version says the Dragon will bow to the
> Crystal Throne. That's something that has to be very old.
Of course, there's nothing that says both of these can't be right.
They are not necessarily in conflict, depending on how you interpret
them. It could be that Rand submitting to the Crystal Throne is what
binds the Seanchan to him.
ObSilly: The Seanchan prophecy could even be taken extremely
literally. Maybe Rand Travels to Seanchan, marches into the throne
room, bows, and then says, "Hi. You're sitting on my throne. Move or
you will be moved."
--
Leigh Butler dal...@concentric.net
**************************************
"Now I know how God felt when he was sitting out there in the dark,
creating the world."
"And how did he feel, Lloyd dear?"
"Very pleased he'd taken his Valium."
ope...@my-deja.com
"Kevin Bangerter" <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Jason Kraftcheck wrote in message
> <3A11ECE8...@smartcad.me.wisc.edu>...
> >lame-comment post per year. I thought it was about time I tried for
a
> >feature-length lame post.
> >
> >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> The Seanchan prophecy of the Dragon Reborn is not the only prophecy
> motivating Tuon. We are made aware of this other prophecy on p.324,
from
> Tuon's POV, "She had commanded the damane to read her fortune, and she
> should not have ordered her caned because she disliked what she
heard." From
> this we know that she had received what Aes Sedai call a Foretelling.
What surprised me is when Tuon said "everyone knows that damane can
tell your fortune..." Is this something learned? because there are
probably only 3 or 4 Aes Sedai that have the Fortelling. And how would
a damane (or sul'dam) be able to force it?
rob
--
Robert "Elyas" Roth
"Epistemological Despondency"
Adam Benedict Canning
Sarah Coit wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> >
> > Ryan Klippenstine wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:44:59 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
> > > <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > > <snip Tuon leaving Ebou Dar with Mat>
> > >
> > > >The fact that
> > > >before the kidnapping has even taken place, the seeker is already onto
> > > >Egeanin, and likely after Tuon,
> > >
> > > The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon. And wouldn't he find it
> > > interesting if Suroth's immediate reaction after Tuon's disappearance
> > > is to declare her a traitor and seize power for herself?
>
> Actually, the Seeker was after the head of the Conspiracy. He
> wants Suroth, but he really wants to weed out the whole thing.
> He is quite willing to consider that Tuon might be the head
> of the Conspiracy, so she is far from safe. Since she
> disappeared with the traitors, she may fall under suspicion.
>
> > > Except that if the Empress isn't convinced of the truth of the >
> > > charges, she will have every last one them flayed, rolled in salt, and
> > > fed to grolm.
> >
> > Suroth gets to be strangled or made Da'covale. Semiraghe is however
> > soe'feia and immune.
>
> Not quite, I think. It is traditional among the Imperial Family
> to allow soe'feia great leeway. The Imperials won't punish them
> or reprimand them for their actions. That doesn't mean that the
> Seekers, or anyone else, have the same restrictions. I could
> easily picture the Seekers torturing a soe'feia to uncover a
> plot against the Empress.
They'd need evidence she'd lied first or the vaunted Immunity to
punishment is meaningless. The seekers after all take orders from the
Imperial family.
Adam
Sarah Coit
> > >SPOILER SPACE
> > >(Sorry, I don't think I can do page breaks in Nutscrape.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> What surprised me is when Tuon said "everyone knows that damane can
> tell your fortune..." Is this something learned? because there are
> probably only 3 or 4 Aes Sedai that have the Fortelling. And how would
> a damane (or sul'dam) be able to force it?
I think it is probably a matter of Talents. Some Talents seem
restricted to certain channeling heritages or gene pools. The
Aiel, for example, seem to have a near-monopoly on the Dream Walking
Talent, while the Aes Sedai and the lands from which they draw
their people seem to have a near-monopoly on Healing. This is
probably some Talent, or sub-talent, that is not common in
the mainlands.
-Sarah
Courtenay Footman
not a plural "that", refering not to all _damane_, but to Lidya, that
specific _damane_. The fact that "_damane_" is its own plural is the
cause of this ambiguity.
--
Courtenay Footman I have again gotten back on the net, and
c...@lightlink.com again I will never get anything done.
(All mail from non-valid addresses is automatically deleted by my system.)
Richard M. Boye'
>
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > Suroth is after all guilty of treason, several times over, and Tuon
> > didin't take the Aes Sedai prisoners Suroth had [Remember the Seeker is
> > concerned about Ryma and Liandrin.]
>
> That might work. OTOH, the Empress, may she live forever, is not
> a nice person. She would probably have Suroth killed, but she
> would probably also not trust Tuon. She could just as easily
> make Tuon Da'covale in a fit of pique or had her over to the
> sul'dam.
>
> Actually, I wonder whether the Empress might be a Darkfriend.
> She has a seriously mean streak in her, and she did force
> Tuon to take Anath. That might have been Compulsion, or
> it might have been her own will.
Let's discuss the current occupant of the Crystal Throne. First of all,
how many children does she even have? Tuon mentions the brother and
sister who were made da'covale, and I assume that those are the two
children referred to by the Seeker Jalandin we met back in tFoH. Tuon
also mentions a few dead siblings, as well as others who actively plot
against her.
Does she have a consort? Or does she simply pick and chose which of her
handsome Blood-courtiers will get to ride the Hawkwing tonight? Tuon
makes absolutely no reference to her father.
Also, after rereading Tuon's POV last night, I noticed that Tuon makes
mention of the fact that the last -man- to sit on the Crystal Throne,
Algwyn, ruled about a thousand years ago.
Come again? Isn't the Seanchan Imperium only about a thousand years old
anyway? Luthair was the first emperor, so Algwyn must have been one of
his immediate successors.
What piques my curiosity about that is this. Are we to assume that for a
thousand years, only women have ruled Seanchan? Is it a sort of
institutional gynarchy like Andor? If so, then I guess the title
"Daughter of the the Nine Moons" is an official title for the heir, like
"Prince of Wales," or "Dauphin." Is there ever a "Son of the Nine
Moons?"
I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
-thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
throne.
So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Bryon T Wasserman
wrote:
>Sarah Coit wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
>> >
>> > Sarah Coit wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
>
>
>
>Does she have a consort? Or does she simply pick and chose which of her
>handsome Blood-courtiers will get to ride the Hawkwing tonight? Tuon
>makes absolutely no reference to her father.
I suspect that there isn't a fixed consort position. There may be a
single guy doing all the siring, but for some reason I get the sense
that there isn't someone with a title who inhabits that position.
>Also, after rereading Tuon's POV last night, I noticed that Tuon makes
>mention of the fact that the last -man- to sit on the Crystal Throne,
>Algwyn, ruled about a thousand years ago.
>
>Come again? Isn't the Seanchan Imperium only about a thousand years old
>anyway? Luthair was the first emperor, so Algwyn must have been one of
>his immediate successors.
I'd guess that it's a little over eleven hundred years old. The
current calendar dates back to the end of the hundred years war, which
started when Hawkwing died. I don't have the guide with me, but IIRC
Hawkwing sent his two expeditionary forces our relatively late in
life.
>What piques my curiosity about that is this. Are we to assume that for a
>thousand years, only women have ruled Seanchan? Is it a sort of
>institutional gynarchy like Andor? If so, then I guess the title
>"Daughter of the the Nine Moons" is an official title for the heir, like
>"Prince of Wales," or "Dauphin." Is there ever a "Son of the Nine
>Moons
For some reason, I had gotten the impression that the title had a
certain signficance relating to The Return. Thus, all of Tuon's
shenanigans to hide her head.
>
>I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
>Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
>so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
>ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
>seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
>-thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
>throne.
>
>So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
I think so.
Bryon Wasserman
wass...@law.georgetown.edu
Molly Moloney
writes:
>I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
>Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
>so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
>ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
>seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
>-thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
>throne.
>
>So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
They could have some sort of succession system that favors women, but doesn't
exclude men entirely. It certainly doesn't seem unlikely enough, imo, to
qualify as an error of some sort.
--
Molly
John S. Novak, III
>> > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
>Let's discuss the current occupant of the Crystal Throne. First of all,
>how many children does she even have?
Boatloads.
Someone back in tGH mentions or muses that she has a whole bunch.
Turak, I think.
>Also, after rereading Tuon's POV last night, I noticed that Tuon makes
>mention of the fact that the last -man- to sit on the Crystal Throne,
>Algwyn, ruled about a thousand years ago.
>Come again? Isn't the Seanchan Imperium only about a thousand years old
>anyway? Luthair was the first emperor, so Algwyn must have been one of
>his immediate successors.
It would be more like 1100 or 1150. The proto-Seanchan left before
Hawkwing's death, and after Hawkwing's death came a little over 100
years of war before the new calendar started at zero.
Also, the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal. It almost certainly
existed before Luthair and his motley crew came a-Cortezing over the
bloody ocean. I don't remember the quote clearly enough to remember
if Algwyn was clearly an ancestor of Tuon, or a Seanchan himself.
>I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
>Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
>so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
>ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
>seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
>-thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
>throne.
>So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
Dunno.
Seems like a fairly gaping one, if it is.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
The Humblest Man on the Net
Leigh D. Butler
> Sarah Coit wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > >
> > > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
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> I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
> Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
> so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
> ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
> seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
> -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
> throne.
>
> So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
I'm not sure why you find this so astounding. Randland is, after all,
a rather matriarchal society.
It's European monarchies backwards. Nobody thinks it's odd that in,
say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
for a woman to inherit the power seat.
So given that gender relations in the WOT societies we've seen tend to
be the other way around from ours (for various reasons we've already
discussed on this group), there's no reason to suppose the Seanchan
aren't the same.
Their system is most likely, IMO, set up in the same way the European
monarchies were, strongly favoring one gender over another, but
allowing for the other gender to take power if there is no other
alternative. It's just that women are favored over men, this time.
*shrug* Seems fairly obvious to me. England only had as many reigning
queens as it did [1] because of Henry the Eighth's marriage
shenanigans royally (heh) fucking up the succession. [2]
--
Leigh Butler dal...@concentric.net
**************************************
"But your Majesty, you are only a woman - "
"Yes, I am! But if I choose I can have the heart of a man..."
[1] Am I correct in thinking there have only been four? My knowledge
of history is fading into early senility...
[2] That and his lack of ability to pass along a Y chromosome...[3]
[3] Yes, I am aware that this is oversimplification. Relax. The point
still stands. [4]
[4] Footnote mania! Whoo hoo!
paul_...@my-deja.com
posting occasionally. I like the page research
you put into your post it is handy as a reminder
to the plot lines.
spoiler alert
In my opinion I don't think we can say what
happend during the fortune telling incident
between Tuon and her Damane.
One of two things may have upset her. She might
be upset over being told about her future husband
or perhaps she might have hinted that she would
be involved in a future schism in Seanchean
society concerning the ability of Suldam to
channel. This is perhaps a bit of a looney
theory, but perhaps the damane could have
referred to Tuon's ability to control damane (in
other words she has the spark) and/or the
consequences this knowledge will have for the
Seanchean blood. This is just a guess though as
we don't know if Tuon knows anything about the
suldam being able to channel, I would have
thought if she knew she would be thinking about
it in her POV's.
The point I am trying to make is foretelling is
very non specific, and Tuon could just be angry
that the damane told her she could be responsible
or involved in a large change to Seanchean
culture (she might have hinted that Rand will
control the seanchean, that she will bend to his
will). We don't know that it is not necesarrily
about Mat.
p.s. Don't flame me for my name, if it puts it in
my email address for my name, I've been using it
for years.
Paul Bates
like the page research you put into your post it is handy as a reminder
to the plot lines.
spoiler alert
In my opinion I don't think we can say what happend during the
fortune telling incident between Tuon and her Damane.
One of two things may have upset her. She might be upset over being
told about her future husband or perhaps she might have hinted that she
would be involved in a future schism in Seanchean society concerning
the ability of Suldam to channel. This is perhaps a bit of a looney
theory, but perhaps the damane could have referred to Tuon's ability to
control damane (in other words she has the spark) and/or the
consequences this knowledge will have for the Seanchean blood. This is
just a guess though as we don't know if Tuon knows anything about the
suldam being able to channel, I would have thought if she knew she
would be thinking about it in her POV's.
The point I am trying to make is foretelling is very non specific,
and Tuon could just be angry that the damane told her she could be
responsible or involved in a large change to Seanchean culture (she
might have hinted that Rand will control the seanchean, that she will
bend to his will). We don't know that it is not necesarrily about Mat.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Chapman
news:MPG.14812dad8...@news.concentric.net...
<Reigning Queens of England>
> [1] Am I correct in thinking there have only been four? My knowledge
> of history is fading into early senility...
Very much so. Reigning Queens of England since 1066:
Matilda (intermittently during the reign of Stephen, 1135-54)
Lady Jane Grey (1553, for 9 days)
Mary Tudor (1553-8)
Elizabeth I (1558-1603)
Mary II (1689-94, co-ruler with her husband William III) [1]
Anne (1702-14)
Victoria (1837-1901)
Elizabeth II (1952-)
[1] ObQuote: "England ruled by an orange." [1pt]
--
"I used to be a pacifist, after a fashion."
"What happened?"
"Expediency."
Richard M. Boye'
>
> Apropos of nothing, on 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT Richard M. Boye'
> wrote:
> > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> > I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
> > Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
> > so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
> > ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
> > seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
> > -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
> > throne.
> >
> > So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
>
> I'm not sure why you find this so astounding. Randland is, after all,
> a rather matriarchal society.
>
> It's European monarchies backwards. Nobody thinks it's odd that in,
> say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
> not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
> is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
> for a woman to inherit the power seat.
Yeah, but we have several things working against us here:
1) RJ has alluded to the fact that the reason why Randland is
shoulder-deep in matriarchies is because society coalesced after the
Breaking around the notion that it was -men- who caused the fall of
humankind, the destruction of civilization and general mayhem. (If they
only knew it was actually all the fault of Lanfear playing Pandora, but
anyway...)
It seeped into the general culture, and didn't help the status of men
any that the preeminent wizards in the world were now exclusively
female, with those men who manifested the ability hunted down and carted
away.
However, over in Seanchan, those that would be Aes Sedai are regarded as
chattel and sub-human. There would be no trickle-down effect from the
Aes Sedai to Jane al'Schmoe.
2) The Seanchan empire began in a fairly patriarchal manner - Artur
sends off his son, Luthair - that's a tradition of two male rulers. It
doesn't take much to set a precedent. After all, all it took was Ishara
gaining the Amyrlin's sanction by shipping her daughter off to the Tower
to set up the Queendom of Andor.
3) Also, while it may seem to have a system in Randland that favors
female scuccession, it seems to me that barring Andor, and the Panarch
of Tarabon, most of the positions of rulership (thrones, high seats,
governorships etc) are not so much female heavy as they are simply
gender neutral. This dramatically increases the number of women in
positions of power if say, the oldest daughter can simply inherit rather
than waiting for -all- her brothers and nephews to die out first. Like
Faile and her brothers.
Indeed, even places like Tear and Illian tend to be tilted -away- from
female authority. The Council of High Lords (the -ruling- counsel) was
exclusively male until the addition of High Lady Rosana. Oh, there are
High Ladies, but they are not in the governing organ. Illian's Council
of Nine seems exclusively male as well.
> *shrug* Seems fairly obvious to me. England only had as many reigning
> queens as it did [1] because of Henry the Eighth's marriage
> shenanigans royally (heh) fucking up the succession. [2]
Yeah, but still. We have seen male claimants to the throne, and have
been introduced to them as such (i.e Turak). If it was a straight
gynarchy then we -should- have seen some corresponding reference to "as
impossible as it seems, for a man to take the throne," much like we saw
in reaction to "Lord Gaebril."
Lastly, it seems stupid for High Lord Turak to count as one of his
titles his place in the succession if he is capable of doing no such
thing.
Matthew Hackell
> Apropos of nothing, on 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT Richard M. Boye'
> wrote:
> > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> > I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
> > Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
> > so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
> > ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
> > seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
> > -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
> > throne.
> >
> > So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
>
> I'm not sure why you find this so astounding. Randland is, after all,
> a rather matriarchal society.
>
> It's European monarchies backwards. Nobody thinks it's odd that in,
> say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
> not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
> is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
> for a woman to inherit the power seat.
But in the course of the last millennium, England has had at least seven
reigning queens. Seanchan has had none.
Matilda
Mary I
Jane Grey
Elizabeth I
Mary II (with William III, then alone)
Anne
Victoria
Elizabeth II
[snip]
> *shrug* Seems fairly obvious to me. England only had as many reigning
> queens as it did [1] because of Henry the Eighth's marriage
> shenanigans royally (heh) fucking up the succession. [2]
Actually, it's more because every legitimate male heir to Edward III was
killed off during the Wars of the Roses, so there was no male within
several generations to inherit from King Henry. But that doesn't explain
Matilda.
--
Matt
Somehow, I don't think we've seen the last of Slobodan and his unholy
legion of the undead
Amy Gray
> Sarah Coit wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > >
> > > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
>
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> I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
> Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
> so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
> ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
> seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
> -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
> throne.
Perhaps the Crystal Throne works much better for women than men, or even
exclusively for women. A race of people used to feeling a tremendous
rush of subservience and such when kneeling in front of the Crystal
Throne would no doubt see something lacking in a ruler that could not
provoke this response.
*shrug* It's a possibility, at least.
--
Amy Gray
gr...@friends.edu
UIN: 90147322
David Chapman
news:MPG.1481ce805...@news.princeton.edu...
> From the book of Leigh D. Butler:
> > Apropos of nothing, on 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT Richard M. Boye'
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > It's European monarchies backwards. Nobody thinks it's odd that in,
> > say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
> > not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
> > is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
> > for a woman to inherit the power seat.
>
> But in the course of the last millennium, England has had at least
seven
> reigning queens.
Eight, of (IIRC) 58 monarchs since 1066. Anglo-Saxon rulers were nearly
always men.
> Seanchan has had none.
I think you mean no reigning *kings*, yes?
> Mary II (with William III, then alone)
Pedant: Mary II actually predeceased her husband by some eight years.
> > *shrug* Seems fairly obvious to me. England only had as many
reigning
> > queens as it did [1] because of Henry the Eighth's marriage
> > shenanigans royally (heh) fucking up the succession. [2]
>
> Actually, it's more because every legitimate male heir to Edward III
was
> killed off during the Wars of the Roses, so there was no male within
> several generations to inherit from King Henry. But that doesn't
explain
> Matilda.
Matilda was the only surviving legitimate child of Henry I, but she had
lived in Germany since she was eight years old and so most of the
Normans didn't even know who she was.
Stephen of Blois was Henry's younger nephew, and while his elder brother
Theobald had the better claim and great support among the barons, when
Stephen nipped across the Channel and had himself crowned King, Theobald
didn't press his superior claim as Stephen had enormous support in
England due to his holding the honours of Lancaster, Eye and Boulogne.
Matilda, OTOH, had a fairly large amount of support due to her being the
true heir to the throne, and so *did* press her claim. Her armies
actually defeated Stephen at Lincoln in 1141, and in April of that year
she was crowned ruler of England.
However, Matilda had been high-handed and arrogant with the people; she
wasn't universally popular, she spoke not a word of English (her first
language was German), and she had treated her cousin Stephen far more
harshly than was appropriate for one of noble blood. She was expelled
from London by main force within two months of her coronation, to
relocate in Oxford.
In an attempt to win one of her greatest supporters, Henry of Blois,
back to her cause, she decamped from Oxford at the end of July to attack
Winchester. Another horrible defeat ensued, Matilda herself was sorely
wounded, and eventually was forced to bargain for her half-brother's
freedom by releasing Stephen. Her supporters deserted her, and in
December 1141 Stephen was restored to the throne.
Seven years of civil war ensued, but Matilda never regained her power
base and in February 1148 she gave up and fled back across the Channel.
However, her son, Henry Plantagenet, succeeded to the throne upon the
death of Stephen in 1154 and was crowned Henry II.
--
And the thing about failure is
It happens when you're out of time
You don't know you've lost the race
Until you cross the finish line
Karl-Johan Noren
> In article <8v2f98$ovh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ope...@my-deja.com wrote:
Spoilers:
> >What surprised me is when Tuon said "everyone knows that damane can
> >tell your fortune..." Is this something learned? because there are
> >probably only 3 or 4 Aes Sedai that have the Fortelling. And how would
> >a damane (or sul'dam) be able to force it?
>
> I read this sentence differently. I interpreted "that" to be a singular,
> not a plural "that", refering not to all _damane_, but to Lidya, that
> specific _damane_. The fact that "_damane_" is its own plural is the
> cause of this ambiguity.
I can't agree. If only Lidya was a damane who could foretell,
how would "everyone" know it? "Everyone knows that" is practically
an idiom, so I must say that it's possible to do some sort
of prophecies using the OP - though that's likely different
from "real" Foretellings in having a question to answer,
less reliability etc etc.
--
Karl-Johan Norén -- kjn...@hem.passagen.se
http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/
- To believe people are as stupid as one believes is
stupider than one can believe
Craig Moe
>Courtenay Footman <c...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
>> In article <8v2f98$ovh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ope...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Spoilers:
>> >What surprised me is when Tuon said "everyone knows that damane can
>> >tell your fortune..." Is this something learned? because there are
>> >probably only 3 or 4 Aes Sedai that have the Fortelling. And how would
>> >a damane (or sul'dam) be able to force it?
>>
>> I read this sentence differently. I interpreted "that" to be a singular,
>> not a plural "that", refering not to all _damane_, but to Lidya, that
>> specific _damane_. The fact that "_damane_" is its own plural is the
>> cause of this ambiguity.
>I can't agree. If only Lidya was a damane who could foretell,
>how would "everyone" know it? "Everyone knows that" is practically
>an idiom, so I must say that it's possible to do some sort
>of prophecies using the OP - though that's likely different
>from "real" Foretellings in having a question to answer,
>less reliability etc etc.
I assumed it was a weave that replicated Min's aura reading trick.
--
Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com>
"I read that it had some serious side effects. I can't remember any of
them, or else I could be informative. But at least I can be alarmist."
--Dave Foley
Leigh D. Butler
wrote:
> "Leigh D. Butler" <dal...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.14812dad8...@news.concentric.net...
>
> <Reigning Queens of England>
>
> > [1] Am I correct in thinking there have only been four? My knowledge
> > of history is fading into early senility...
>
> Very much so. Reigning Queens of England since 1066:
>
> Matilda (intermittently during the reign of Stephen, 1135-54)
> Lady Jane Grey (1553, for 9 days)
> Mary Tudor (1553-8)
> Elizabeth I (1558-1603)
> Mary II (1689-94, co-ruler with her husband William III) [1]
> Anne (1702-14)
> Victoria (1837-1901)
> Elizabeth II (1952-)
Well, I forgot about Anne and Mary II, that's for sure. But I
deliberately discounted Lady Jane Grey and Matilda - Matilda was on
the throne for, what, three months? And Jane for a whopping nine days,
as you say.
I guess it depends on your definition of "reigning". In any case,
thanks for the correction.
--
Leigh Butler dal...@concentric.net
**************************************
"Yes, it's like a giant...ant farm."
Leigh D. Butler
wrote:
> Leigh D. Butler wrote:
> >
> > Apropos of nothing, on 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT Richard M. Boye'
> > wrote:
> > > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
if men can inherit?>
> > It's European monarchies backwards. Nobody thinks it's odd that in,
> > say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
> > not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
> > is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
> > for a woman to inherit the power seat.
>
>
> 1) RJ has alluded to the fact that the reason why Randland is
> shoulder-deep in matriarchies is because society coalesced after the
> Breaking around the notion that it was -men- who caused the fall of
> humankind, the destruction of civilization and general mayhem.
> However, over in Seanchan, those that would be Aes Sedai are regarded as
> chattel and sub-human. There would be no trickle-down effect from the
> Aes Sedai to Jane al'Schmoe.
But it is obvious that in Seanchan there has been no backlash
_against_ women in general either, and in fact it continues the usual
Randland trend of women commonly holding high political/military
office.
Plus it was stated at various places in WH and elsewhere that sul'dam
are highly respected and powerful members of Seanchan society because
of their ability to control the damane "chattel". We have never seen
any implication that damane's status is connected with ordinary
women's status at all - quite the opposite, in fact.
> 2) The Seanchan empire began in a fairly patriarchal manner - Artur
> sends off his son, Luthair - that's a tradition of two male rulers. It
> doesn't take much to set a precedent. After all, all it took was Ishara
> gaining the Amyrlin's sanction by shipping her daughter off to the Tower
> to set up the Queendom of Andor.
Well, this is where we simply don't have enough information on
Seanchan history to make a guess. Amy Gray brought up the possibility
that the preponderance of female rulers has something to do with the
Crystal Throne. Perhaps it is a female-only ter'angreal, and was
brought into play after the last male to reign and since then has made
it very unlikely for a male to inherit.
It could be any number of things.
> 3) Also, while it may seem to have a system in Randland that favors
> female scuccession, it seems to me that barring Andor, and the Panarch
> of Tarabon, most of the positions of rulership (thrones, high seats,
> governorships etc) are not so much female heavy as they are simply
> gender neutral. This dramatically increases the number of women in
> positions of power if say, the oldest daughter can simply inherit rather
> than waiting for -all- her brothers and nephews to die out first. Like
> Faile and her brothers.
That's true, but it hardly destroys the argument. You have gynarchies,
like Andor, and gender-neutral monarchies, like Saldaea, and
(apparently) male-biased-but-not-exclusive oligarchies, like Tear.
What's to say you can't also have a female-biased-but-not-exclusive
monarchy in Seanchan?
> > *shrug* Seems fairly obvious to me. England only had as many reigning
> > queens as it did [1] because of Henry the Eighth's marriage
> > shenanigans royally (heh) fucking up the succession. [2]
>
> Yeah, but still. We have seen male claimants to the throne, and have
> been introduced to them as such (i.e Turak). If it was a straight
> gynarchy then we -should- have seen some corresponding reference to "as
> impossible as it seems, for a man to take the throne," much like we saw
> in reaction to "Lord Gaebril."
You seem to be saying here that I was arguing in favor of Seanchan
being a gynarchy, which I am not. Remember that the term "unlikely" is
an extremely subjective term. When I say that the Seanchan succession
makes it "unlikely" for a male to inherit, I am not necessarily saying
it's "next to impossible".
In any case, I would say that if Seanchan succession makes it possible
for men to inherit, it _is_ unusual that no man would be on the throne
for a thousand years, but I don't think it's completely outside the
realm of possibility. When you're dealing with an inheritance-based
system, all kinds of funky statistical anomalies can happen.
Food for thought: Tuon thinks to herself that she is currently the
"most favored" of the Empress' children. This tells us that in
Seanchan, the heir to the throne is not determined by age (the oldest
inheriting, as is the general rule) but by the current ruler choosing
her successor more or less randomly from among her offspring. I leave
it to the reader to consider what effects this practice has had on the
statistical anomaly under discussion...
--
Leigh Butler dal...@concentric.net
**************************************
"47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot."
Joe Kalash
(Bryon T Wasserman) wrote:
Well, another possibility is that "The Empress, may she live forever" has.
That is she may be VERY VERY old (say, several hundred years). That would
nicely clear up both the boat load of kids, and the lack of any Emperors
(cause the guys haven't had a chance).
If true, it could be a side effect of her throne, or maybe she can
actually channel (the Kin live a very long time), or maybe it is just a
Seachan special thing they can do for the Empress. Or just a traditional
looney idea...
--
Joe Kalash
kal...@pacbell.net
Jostein
> > wrote:
> > > Sarah Coit wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Adam Benedict Canning wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sarah Coit wrote in message ...
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <succession in the Seanchan Empire>
> >
Lord
> > > Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal
Throne,"
> > > so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection
on her
> > > ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule
system, it
> > > seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system,
for a
> > > -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for
the
> > > throne.
> > >
> > > So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
> >
all,
> > a rather matriarchal society.
> >
> > say, England, nine times out of ten it was a king on the throne and
> > not a queen, because the (very patriarchal) system of succession
> > is/was set up so that it is very difficult - but not _impossible_ -
> > for a woman to inherit the power seat.
>
seven
>
> Matilda
> Mary I
> Jane Grey
> Elizabeth I
> Victoria
> Elizabeth II
>
Well Norway had more or less the same system, i.e. favours men, but
don't make it impossible for wome. And over the last millenium there
have been 50 or so kings (some ruling with their brothers), and *one*
de facto reigning queen.
--
Jostein Nygård
Url: http://www.geocities.com/jostein_nygard/index.html
“Hvis samene ikke er fornøyd med sånn de har det i Finmark, kan de
vel dra hjem dit de kom fra?”
Sean
>On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:52:04 GMT, Keith Higginson
><higgi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>spoilers
>
>>> We know that Seanchan prophecy says that the Dragon Reborn must kneel
>>> before the Crystal Throne. This is repeated on the bottom of p.328.
>>> When Tuon talks about this, Anath's reaction is very interesting. On
>>> p. 329, " Anath's mood changed in a flash. [...is it Compulsion?]
>>Kudos to Semirhage for being the most successful and competent of all
>>the forsaken. She's perverted a prophecy and hijacked the military
>>might of an entire empire to her own end of capturing the Dragon and
>>converting him--not to mention put a continent and a half in her grasp,
>>de facto.
>I doubt Semirhage perverted that prophecy.
>It was probably done by Ishamael the last time he was loose.
>The Randland Proper version says that the Dragon will bind the Nine
>Moons to him. The Seanchan version says the Dragon will bow to the
>Crystal Throne. That's something that has to be very old.
But I don't see why the two prophecies cannot be both true... They
would not really conflict each other, and we've all seen how Jordan's
prophecies in the past have been radically misinterprited by people.
Cya,
Sean.
Sarah Coit
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>
> Food for thought: Tuon thinks to herself that she is currently the
> "most favored" of the Empress' children. This tells us that in
> Seanchan, the heir to the throne is not determined by age (the oldest
> inheriting, as is the general rule) but by the current ruler choosing
> her successor more or less randomly from among her offspring. I leave
> it to the reader to consider what effects this practice has had on the
> statistical anomaly under discussion...
Also, Turak described Tuon as the Empress's second daughter.
Maybe the first daughter simply fell out of the race, but
it is possible that Tuon was elevated past her older sister.
Back to another post, I suspect that "Daughter of the Nine Moons" is a
title like "Daughter Heir." Basically, it is the title of the heir
to the throne. There are parallels in literature and real life.
-Sarah
John Johnson
"Richard M. Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
news:3A16D0...@webspan.net...
> > > > > > >> >SPOILER SPACE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<snip>
> Does she have a consort? Or does she simply pick and chose which of her
> handsome Blood-courtiers will get to ride the Hawkwing tonight? Tuon
> makes absolutely no reference to her father.
It doesn't look like the Empress has an official consort. OTOH, it could be
a result of a culture that just doesn't have many men in political power.
> Also, after rereading Tuon's POV last night, I noticed that Tuon makes
> mention of the fact that the last -man- to sit on the Crystal Throne,
> Algwyn, ruled about a thousand years ago.
>
> Come again? Isn't the Seanchan Imperium only about a thousand years old
> anyway? Luthair was the first emperor, so Algwyn must have been one of
> his immediate successors.
>
> What piques my curiosity about that is this. Are we to assume that for a
> thousand years, only women have ruled Seanchan? Is it a sort of
> institutional gynarchy like Andor? If so, then I guess the title
> "Daughter of the the Nine Moons" is an official title for the heir, like
> "Prince of Wales," or "Dauphin." Is there ever a "Son of the Nine
> Moons?"
>
> I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
> Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
> so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on her
> ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule system, it
> seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence system, for a
> -thousand- years only women would be successful contestants for the
> throne.
> So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
12th in line doesn't necessarily mean "likely to inherit", or even "able to
inherit". I'd assume it would be similar to the U.S. having a Cabinet member
become President--highly unlikely, in fact it's almost impossible, but there
is a slim chance of it happening.
Looney Theory:
I proposed this once, but now it makes more sense. What if the Crystal
Throne actually requires channeling to be activated? Do we know when the
Seanchan acquired the Crystal Throne? Did it come over with Hawkwing, or was
it a later discovery? If it was a later discovery, it's possible that it
requires channeling to be activated, and that's why the Seanchan haven't had
a male ruler for a 1000 years.
--
John Johnson
David Chapman
> Apropos of nothing, on Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:31:49 -0000 David Chapman
> wrote:
> > "Leigh D. Butler" <dal...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.14812dad8...@news.concentric.net...
> >
> > <Reigning Queens of England>
> >
> > > [1] Am I correct in thinking there have only been four? My
knowledge
> > > of history is fading into early senility...
> >
> > Very much so. Reigning Queens of England since 1066:
> >
> > Matilda (intermittently during the reign of Stephen, 1135-54)
> > Lady Jane Grey (1553, for 9 days)
> > Mary Tudor (1553-8)
> > Elizabeth I (1558-1603)
> > Mary II (1689-94, co-ruler with her husband William III) [1]
> > Anne (1702-14)
> > Victoria (1837-1901)
> > Elizabeth II (1952-)
>
> Well, I forgot about Anne and Mary II, that's for sure. But I
> deliberately discounted Lady Jane Grey and Matilda - Matilda was on
> the throne for, what, three months?
Seven months, which is almost as long as Edward VIII reigned and nobody
is discounting *him*. She was also the true heir to the throne, and her
son succeeded Stephen.
> And Jane for a whopping nine days,
> as you say.
>
Lady Jane Grey was *also* an acceptable heir. Mary and Elizabeth had
both been declared illegitimate by the church because one of Henry's
previous marriages to that of their mother had been annulled. The
church didn't accept that, and so AFATWC Henry had not been married to
their mothers.
> I guess it depends on your definition of "reigning".
Having been crowned. If you live to the coronation, you're the
monarch - end of story.
>In any case,
> thanks for the correction.
No problem.
Matthew Hackell
Because they aren't two prophecies. They are different scribal copies
(or political emendations) of the same Karaethon Cycle. This is
comparable to different translations of the Bible--you don't have to
reconcile them, just believe one or the other, or neither.
Ryan Klippenstine
>
>Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
><3a136548...@news.westman.wave.ca>...
>>On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:44:59 GMT, "Kevin Bangerter"
>><the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
<snip>
>>Without compelling evidence to suggest that Tuon is collaborating with
>>Mat and Co., Suroth might as well claim that Tuon is an Ogier as a
>>traitor. And it would have to be _damn_ compelling evidence; who's
>>going to believe that the leader of the Corenne and the heir-apparent
>>to the Crystal Throne is a traitor to her own inheritance? What could
>>she possibly gain?
>>
>>If and when Tuon returns to the Seanchan advocating alliance with the
>>Dragon and the manumission of the damane, Suroth will almost certainly
>>try this. It might even make for a nice subplot, with factions loyal
>>to Tuon battling traditionalists and darkfriends supporting Suroth.
>>But accusing her of treason right off the bat would make no sense.
>
>
>Right. They'll probably wait til they find out who she's with now, and maybe
>what they are trying to do, at least.
I think it's more likely that the Seanchan will think that she is the
victim of Aes Sedai Compulsion than that she is a willing
collaborator. Though anything's possible.
<snip>
>>The Seeker was after Suroth, not Tuon.
>
>No.
>P.418, from the mouth of the Seeker, "Suroth may not even be that worm's
>head. For the Empire's sake, I dare not take her (Egeanin) until I can kill
>the whole worm. Egeanin is a thread I can follow to the worm, and you are a
>thread to Egeanin."
He's saying that Suroth _might_ not be the head of the conspiracy. How
do you get from that that he thinks Tuon _is_ the head?
>So who is he going to find when he follows the thread through Bethamin and
>Egeanin now?
He'll find that Eaganin and Bethamin apparently kidnapped the DotNM,
conveniently leaving Suroth in command of the Corenne.
--
klipp...@brandonu.ca
"Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be
persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right."
-Robert Park, of the American Physical Society
orm...@cvwrf.state.ut.us
minor spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I would guess that Seandar is not a strict matriarchy since High Lord
>>Turak was named explicitly as "twelfth in line to the Crystal Throne,"
>>so obviously men can inherit, and we also have Tuon's reflection on
>>her ambitious brothers. Still, barring a strict one-gender rule
>>system, it seems rather unlikely that in such a fluid inheritence
>>system, for a -thousand- years only women would be successful
>>contestants for the throne.
>
>>So, what gives? I think this is an RJ error.
>
>Dunno.
>Seems like a fairly gaping one, if it is.
>
But there is one [looney?] possibility that would bias who could qualify
as *true* successors versus *show* successors: Channeling.
Arguements for:
1. Tuon is a potential sul'dam and so can channel and is THE Dot9M not
A
Dot9M.
2. The power of the Empress is highly bound to the Crystal Throne which
may or may not require channeling for it to function.
3. Can you even think "The Empress" without hearing "may she live
forever" now that you've read these books?
4. Just how many children does this woman have?
Number three is the most crucial point in my view. We've all heard the
phrase "Long live the King/Queen" and so may take the pharse "may she
live forever" too lightly. Is it possible that because the Empress is
channeling, knowingly or not (think of Nynaeve here), she's slowed a
little? If so, that phrase suddenly has much more meaning behind it.
Point four would also tend to favor the premise of point three.
Against
1. Seanchan + channeling = damane
2. If the Empress channels to control/power the Throne wouldn't one of
the damane notice the nimbus surrounding the Empress?
The first is really a non-issue. "Wilders" among the potential heirs
will be collared (the men are killed of course). Those of sul'dam
potential would not but, like Tuon, they would probably learn to work
with damane regardless of their future.
The second can also be argued away in either a mythos surrounding the
Empress or she can do a bit of mind work on them with the Throne.
Of course, we don't have nearly enough information to make a solid guess
yet, but hopefully that will change over the next decade.
Sarah Coit
We don't know that he will assume that. Bethamin deduced that that was
what he meant. It is unclear whether this was Bethamin's panic, or
whether the Seeker implied this so subtly that we just didn't catch it.
However, he knows that there is a conspiracy involving Egeanin, sul'dam,
Bayle, etc. If Tuon disappears with them, she may well fall under
suspicion.
> >So who is he going to find when he follows the thread through Bethamin and
> >Egeanin now?
>
> He'll find that Eaganin and Bethamin apparently kidnapped the DotNM,
> conveniently leaving Suroth in command of the Corenne.
From what I've seen, there is no evidence of kidnapping. Tuon will
most likely disappear without explanation.
*Theoretically*, the Seeker will consider that she might be part
of the conspiracy, but won't actually accuse her without proof.
This would, however, be very rational, and RJ's characters don't
tend toward rationality very often.
Another possibility is that between Beslan's uprising and a damane
revolt, the Seanchan will have to retreat *again*, and no one will
know what happened to Tuon at all.
-Sarah
Pekka Savola
>In article <slrn91eo7...@ts029d29.chi-il.concentric.net>,
> j...@concentric.net wrote:
>> On 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>
>wrote:
>
>minor spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
<snip some arguments for and against>
>2. If the Empress channels to control/power the Throne wouldn't one of
>the damane notice the nimbus surrounding the Empress?
>
>The first is really a non-issue. "Wilders" among the potential heirs
>will be collared (the men are killed of course). Those of sul'dam
>potential would not but, like Tuon, they would probably learn to work
>with damane regardless of their future.
>
>The second can also be argued away in either a mythos surrounding the
>Empress or she can do a bit of mind work on them with the Throne.
Here's one interesting issue: it's _very_ rare to be allowed to set
their eyes on the Empress, may she live forever.
Those who do are usually of the Blood, not damane or sul'dam.
Pekka Savola pekkas at netcore dot fi
---
Across the nations the stories spread like spiderweb laid upon spiderweb,
and men and women planned the future, believing they knew truth. They
planned, and the Pattern absorbed their plans, weaving toward the future
foretold. -- Robert Jordan: The Path of Daggers
Sarah Coit
> orm...@cvwrf.state.ut.us wrote:
>
> >In article <slrn91eo7...@ts029d29.chi-il.concentric.net>,
> > j...@concentric.net wrote:
> >> On 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >minor spoilers
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
> <snip some arguments for and against>
> >2. If the Empress channels to control/power the Throne wouldn't one of
> >the damane notice the nimbus surrounding the Empress?
> >
> >The first is really a non-issue. "Wilders" among the potential heirs
> >will be collared (the men are killed of course). Those of sul'dam
> >potential would not but, like Tuon, they would probably learn to work
> >with damane regardless of their future.
> >
> >The second can also be argued away in either a mythos surrounding the
> >Empress or she can do a bit of mind work on them with the Throne.
>
> Here's one interesting issue: it's _very_ rare to be allowed to set
> their eyes on the Empress, may she live forever.
>
> Those who do are usually of the Blood, not damane or sul'dam.
Out of curiousity, where are you reading that? IIRC some minor
lordling remembered seeing the Empress in PoD, Egeanin's mother
actually talked to her. ISTR that they were going to present
Egwene to the Empress because Egwene was strong in earth, and
the Empress likes to force lords to wear the bracelet of a
damane in order to make them sweat.
I don't remember references to the Empress' being rarely seen.
-Sarah
The Great Gray Skwid
> Karl-Johan Noren <kjn...@hem.passagen.se> wrote:
> >Courtenay Footman <c...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
> >> In article <8v2f98$ovh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ope...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >Spoilers:
> >> >What surprised me is when Tuon said "everyone knows that damane can
> >> >tell your fortune..." Is this something learned? because there are
> >> >probably only 3 or 4 Aes Sedai that have the Fortelling. And how would
> >> >a damane (or sul'dam) be able to force it?
> >> I read this sentence differently. I interpreted "that" to be a singular,
> >> not a plural "that", refering not to all _damane_, but to Lidya, that
> >> specific _damane_. The fact that "_damane_" is its own plural is the
> >> cause of this ambiguity.
> >I can't agree. If only Lidya was a damane who could foretell,
> >how would "everyone" know it? "Everyone knows that" is practically
> >an idiom, so I must say that it's possible to do some sort
> >of prophecies using the OP - though that's likely different
> >from "real" Foretellings in having a question to answer,
> >less reliability etc etc.
> I assumed it was a weave that replicated Min's aura reading trick.
That's a rather bizarre bit of presumptive reasoning. Where did you pull
that one from?
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
10/21/00 Texas Darkfriend Social at http://skwid.home.texas.net/tdf.html
Pekka Savola
TFoH, Short Spear:
---
Jalindin broke in harshly. "It is you who forgets herself, Lady
Morsa, if you think you're proof against the Seekers for Truth. I
myself have put both a daughter and a son of the Empress, may the
Light bless her, to the question, and_ in gratitude_ for the
confessions I wrenched from them, she _allowed_ me to gaze upon her.
[...]
---
[ __'s mine ]
Gazing upon the Empress seems to be a big deal, at least for those not
of [High] Blood, I suspect.
Craig Moe
>We leaned closer as Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com> whispered:
>> Karl-Johan Noren <kjn...@hem.passagen.se> wrote:
>> >Spoilers:
>> >I can't agree. If only Lidya was a damane who could foretell,
>> >how would "everyone" know it? "Everyone knows that" is practically
>> >an idiom, so I must say that it's possible to do some sort
>> >of prophecies using the OP - though that's likely different
>> >from "real" Foretellings in having a question to answer,
>> >less reliability etc etc.
>> I assumed it was a weave that replicated Min's aura reading trick.
>That's a rather bizarre bit of presumptive reasoning. Where did you pull
>that one from?
Elaida's version of fortelling doesn't seem to lend itself well to
prophecy on demand, especially on a specific subject. Being able to see
Min's auras on demand, however, would do exactly that.
Ryan Klippenstine
<sc...@hsph.harvard.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Ryan Klippenstine wrote:
>
>> "Kevin Bangerter" <the...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<spoiler space>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
<snip>
>> He's saying that Suroth _might_ not be the head of the conspiracy. How
>> do you get from that that he thinks Tuon _is_ the head?
>
>We don't know that he will assume that. Bethamin deduced that that was
>what he meant. It is unclear whether this was Bethamin's panic, or
>whether the Seeker implied this so subtly that we just didn't catch it.
The Seeker said nothing that implied he thought that Tuon was
involved, at least not that we saw. In the next chapter, Bethamin
describes a "fantastical web of treason connecting Egeanin and Bayle
and Suroth and maybe even Tuon herself" to Egeanin. The Seeker may
have said more to Bethamin than what we saw, or Bethamin may have
inferred the involvement of Tuon herself. I see no particular reason
to believe the first possibility. The second seems more likely; if
Bethamin knows that Tuon is a sul'dam, then it would make sense that
she is collaborating with Suroth in hiding that sul'dam are in fact
marath'damane.
>However, he knows that there is a conspiracy involving Egeanin, sul'dam,
>Bayle, etc. If Tuon disappears with them, she may well fall under
>suspicion.
But only if there is some reason to believe that she went voluntarily.
>> >So who is he going to find when he follows the thread through Bethamin and
>> >Egeanin now?
>>
>> He'll find that Eaganin and Bethamin apparently kidnapped the DotNM,
>> conveniently leaving Suroth in command of the Corenne.
>
>From what I've seen, there is no evidence of kidnapping. Tuon will
>most likely disappear without explanation.
That's still likely to cast suspicion on Suroth. Remember, the Seeker
already believes that she killed Turak to gain control of the
Forerunners. If Tuon mysteriously disappears, it would make Suroth
look very bad in his eyes.
If anything, Tuon's disappearance (under whatever circumstances) is
liable to suggest to the Seeker that Tuon is innocent (if he ever
thought she was guilty), and that Suroth wanted her out of the way.
>*Theoretically*, the Seeker will consider that she might be part
>of the conspiracy, but won't actually accuse her without proof.
>This would, however, be very rational, and RJ's characters don't
>tend toward rationality very often.
True. If Rand had an ounce of sense, he'd take Alivia and the Choedan
Kal acess keys, gate right into the middle of the Empress's throne
room, and tell her that unless she withdraws her forces and swears
fealty, he'll drop Tremalking on her. As a proof of concept, he could
dump her out of that pathetic little mind control device she's sitting
in, and use it to put an impressive new crater on the moon.
Kevin Bangerter
Ryan Klippenstine wrote in message
>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>
><snip>
>>However, he knows that there is a conspiracy involving Egeanin, sul'dam,
>>Bayle, etc. If Tuon disappears with them, she may well fall under
>>suspicion.
>
>But only if there is some reason to believe that she went voluntarily.
I think it is the other way around. Being as public a figure as she is, and
with so many Deathwatch Guards and Gardeners to protect her, the Seeker has
no reason to believe that Tuon is even capable of being kidnapped. I think
it will be assumed she left of her own will, unless he sees evidence to the
contrary.
>>From what I've seen, there is no evidence of kidnapping. Tuon will
>>most likely disappear without explanation.
>
>That's still likely to cast suspicion on Suroth. Remember, the Seeker
>already believes that she killed Turak to gain control of the
>Forerunners. If Tuon mysteriously disappears, it would make Suroth
>look very bad in his eyes.
It depends on whatever evidence he already has. If he is suspicious of just
Suroth, you may be right. If he is open to the possibility of Tuon's
involvment, and he seems to be, her disappearance will raise alot of
questions about her loyalties.
>If anything, Tuon's disappearance (under whatever circumstances) is
>liable to suggest to the Seeker that Tuon is innocent (if he ever
>thought she was guilty), and that Suroth wanted her out of the way.
I don't see where you came up with this line of thought. It seems simple.
First, the Seeker tells Bethamin he is suspicious of Egeanin and some
undetermined person higher up. Next, Bethamin, Egeanin, and Tuon leave town
with rogue sul'dam and damane. You wouldn't find this suspicious?
-kgb
Adam Benedict Canning
orm...@cvwrf.state.ut.us wrote:
>
> In article <slrn91eo7...@ts029d29.chi-il.concentric.net>,
> j...@concentric.net wrote:
> > On 18 Nov 2000 18:52:51 GMT, Richard M. Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>
> wrote:
>
> minor spoilers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 2. If the Empress channels to control/power the Throne wouldn't one of
> the damane notice the nimbus surrounding the Empress?
>
> The first is really a non-issue. "Wilders" among the potential heirs
> will be collared (the men are killed of course). Those of sul'dam
> potential would not but, like Tuon, they would probably learn to work
> with damane regardless of their future.
>
> The second can also be argued away in either a mythos surrounding the
> Empress or she can do a bit of mind work on them with the Throne.
In final detail the reason they give that damnae must be leashed. [they
will kill lots of people trying to rule everything.] doesn't hold for
the Empress since its basicallly her job description.
Adam