If Sam died from Mashadar not BF, what happened to Rand's heel?
TK421
This just in... In a CNN.com chat, bestselling Wheel of Time author Robert
Jordan shocked the RASWRJ community today by confirming that Sammael was in
fact killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar and not by Balefire or some other
means. He is definitely "toast."
But my question is if Sammy was not balefired, then how did Rand's foot get
healed after being hit by lightning? We all thought that since Sammael hit
him with the lightning and then the wound was healed, that meant that
Sammael had to have been balefired and the wound erased. But that theory
can't be true with this new info from RJ, so how do you explain the wound
being healed?
Rand surely would have known if someone Healed him, right? Even if it was
Moridin somehow with the True Power, he would still feel it. So we're back
to the balefire theory again.
What if it was Liah who hit him with lightning? There's absoloutely NO
evidence to suggest that she can channel, but nobody really seems to know
anything about her. Avi says she doesn't know her (LoC 19). Maybe she's
just not who she appears to be.
If it was Sammael, we have to explain how the wound was healed even though
he wasn't balefired.
If it was Liah, we have to explain how she can channel in the first place.
Niether of these has a clear answer so far. Any suggestions?
Aaron Cedeno
news:h3hd3tocum719qgs5...@4ax.com...
> Breaking News from CNN.com:
>
> This just in... In a CNN.com chat, bestselling Wheel of Time author Robert
> Jordan shocked the RASWRJ community today by confirming that Sammael was
in
> fact killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar and not by Balefire or some other
> means. He is definitely "toast."
Hmmm. Interesting. Unless RJ is thinking of an exit that nobody round
these parts has thought of, it's gonna be kinda tough for him write himself
out of this little corner. I always have had problems with Sammael's death.
I mean, the guy was just cool character, and Mashadar got him. Damn.
Anyway, I'm glad at least that there is closure to that little debate.
Aaron
--
"On a day of fire and blood, a tattered banner waved above Dumai's Wells,
bearing the ancient symbol of Aes Seda.
On a day of fire and blood and the One Power, as prophecy had suggested, the
unstained tower, broken, bent knee to the forgotten sign
The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world
was changed forever.".
Daniel L. Rouk
TK421 wrote:
> But my question is if Sammy was not balefired, then how did Rand's foot get
> healed after being hit by lightning? We all thought that since Sammael hit
> him with the lightning and then the wound was healed, that meant that
> Sammael had to have been balefired and the wound erased. But that theory
> can't be true with this new info from RJ, so how do you explain the wound
> being healed?
Can someone post a reference to this healed heel thing? I'm trying to find it,
but no luck thus far.
Jason Lee
"Daniel L. Rouk" <dr...@cellbio.emory.edu> wrote in message
news:3A36FD61...@cellbio.emory.edu...
There is no reference for the healing, but Jordan never mentions Rand's heel
in tPoD.
My best guess, one of the Asha'man (probably Flinn) healed it for him
offscreen. Simple and it works.
Jason Lee
Daniel Rouk
"Jason Lee" <jc...@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:RdEZ5.345$n4.1...@news.ou.edu...
> There is no reference for the healing, but Jordan never mentions Rand's
heel
> in tPoD.
>
> My best guess, one of the Asha'man (probably Flinn) healed it for him
> offscreen. Simple and it works.
Ah good. I'm glad I wasn't overlooking something obvious. Given that he
was running and hobbling around afterward, I would guess that it wasn't all
that serious of an injury either. And since it was a normal wound, and not
an aggravated sort that sticks with you forever, I think I agree with your
conclusion.
Mark Leigh
> > Can someone post a reference to this healed heel thing? I'm
trying to
> find it,
> > but no luck thus far.
> >
>
> There is no reference for the healing, but Jordan never mentions
Rand's heel
> in tPoD.
>
> My best guess, one of the Asha'man (probably Flinn) healed it for
him
> offscreen. Simple and it works.
>
Actually, the reference is to Alanna saying something to the effect
of "He was healed, and then not, but I don't think anyone Healed
him." I don't know where this quote is, even in what book it is. But
the controversy is valid if she was referring to Rand's heel. If she
wasn't, I have no idea what she's talking about.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Daniel Rouk
"Mark Leigh" <fus...@nerp.net> wrote in message
news:9188au$pni$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Actually, the reference is to Alanna saying something to the effect
> of "He was healed, and then not, but I don't think anyone Healed
> him." I don't know where this quote is, even in what book it is. But
> the controversy is valid if she was referring to Rand's heel. If she
> wasn't, I have no idea what she's talking about.
I think you mean that he was injured, and then not, but she didn't think
anyone had healed him.
I'll see if I can find that quote tonight... presumably in tPoD?
Mark Leigh
"Daniel Rouk" <dr...@cellbio.emory.edu> wrote:
>
> > Actually, the reference is to Alanna saying something to the
effect
> > of "He was healed, and then not, but I don't think anyone
Healed
> > him." I don't know where this quote is, even in what book it is.
But
> > the controversy is valid if she was referring to Rand's heel. If
she
> > wasn't, I have no idea what she's talking about.
>
> I think you mean that he was injured, and then not, but she didn't
think
> anyone had healed him.
>
> I'll see if I can find that quote tonight... presumably in tPoD?
>
You're right. Sorry about the typo.
Yes, I think it is in PoD, but I don't know where.
P Bowles
>Actually, the reference is to Alanna saying something to the effect
>of "He was healed, and then not, but I don't think anyone Healed
>him." I don't know where this quote is, even in what book it is. But
>the controversy is valid if she was referring to Rand's heel. If she
>wasn't, I have no idea what she's talking about.
She was talking about Flinn's Healing - something she was unable to detect and
which worked in a way completely unlike Aes Sedai Healing, so she didn't
realise Rand had been Healed. This quote took place before the attack on
Illian.
Philip Bowles
TSignus
>>of "He was healed, and then not, but I don't think anyone Healed
>>him." I don't know where this quote is, even in what book it is. But
>>the controversy is valid if she was referring to Rand's heel. If she
>>wasn't, I have no idea what she's talking about.
>She was talking about Flinn's Healing - something she was unable to detect
>and
>which worked in a way completely unlike Aes Sedai Healing, so she didn't
>realise Rand had been Healed. This quote took place before the attack on
>Illian.
Nope. It took place in Path of Daggers, the chapter was New Alliances.
Cadsuane was asking Alanna about how Rand was doing because she hadn't heard
from him since he attacked Illian and then Alanna mentioned that he was injured
and then suddenly was not healed, but she doesn't believe anyone healed him.
-TS
Maccabeus Epimanes
I don't recall any "suddenly". Is it possible that he just got well?
--
Maccabeus Epimanes
Hammer of the Light
"It is time for judgement to begin with the House of God." 1 Peter 4:17
eska
"He was injured, and then not, but I don't think a sister Healed him."
--TPoD 12, New Alliances
There ya go.
eska
TK421 wrote:
> Breaking News from CNN.com:
>
> This just in... In a CNN.com chat, bestselling Wheel of Time author Robert
> Jordan shocked the RASWRJ community today by confirming that Sammael was in
> fact killed in Shadar Logoth by Mashadar and not by Balefire or some other
> means. He is definitely "toast."
>
> But my question is if Sammy was not balefired, then how did Rand's foot get
> healed after being hit by lightning? We all thought that since Sammael hit
> him with the lightning and then the wound was healed, that meant that
> Sammael had to have been balefired and the wound erased. But that theory
> can't be true with this new info from RJ, so how do you explain the wound
> being healed?
>
> Rand surely would have known if someone Healed him, right? Even if it was
> Moridin somehow with the True Power, he would still feel it. So we're back
> to the balefire theory again.
Are we talking about the heel that was hit by the "red filaments" in aCoS 41, A
Crown of Swords, paperback 838? That happens in the palace in Illian. Then
Rand goes to Shadar Logoth and prowls around for a little while, looking for
Sammael. He runs into Liah. He chases her. He fights some Shadowspawn.
Then, on page 845 (paperback), the lightning starts. He's knocked down, but
there's no mention of his heel being further damaged, or of any specific
injury.
Then the Wanderer (Moridin) pulls him out of the crater. They chat. They
shoot balefire at Mashadar; the balefire beams cross. They both run into the
street, where Rand thinks, "His wounded foot throbbed; it seemed a year ago
that that red wire of Fire and Air had stabbed his heel." (paperback p. 847)
He and Moridin chat even _more_. Moridin tells Rand where to find Sammael and
goes away.
Then Rand limps towards the Waygate and Sammael. When he gets there, this is
the sequence of events (from the FAQ):
1. Rand goes to the SL Waygate, where Sammy is waiting for him (off to the
side of the square).
2. Mashadar starts creeping into the square.
3. Rand spots Sammy, who has not noticed him, and prepares to balefire him.
4. He's interrupted by a scream from Liah, who has been caught by Mashadar.
Both Rand and Sammy are distracted, and turn to look at her.
5. Rand balefires Liah, then loses control and sweeps a beam of BF towards the
square. He stops when he sees that the square is now covered with Mashadar, and
Sammael is nowhere to be seen. [ACOS: 41, A Crown of Swords, 661]
"When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment
of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched
it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases
to exist. The strongest [Moiraine] can manage will remove only a few seconds
from the Pattern...For as far back as you destroy [something], whatever it did
during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those who
saw or experienced it." [TFOH: 6, Gateways, 119]
Now, some significant time elapsed between Rand's heel getting hurt and
Sammael's being (hypothetically) balefired. This is a long, long scene. Why
would Rand's injury necessarily disappear? In TFoH, RJ made a point of saying
that the balefire Rand used on Rahvin was "driven by all the Power he could
draw" [TFoH 55, The Threads Burn]; here, there's no such emphasis. This is
just balefire. The wound stays because it happened long enough ago that it
wasn't affected---Sammael's thread still exists at that point in time. The
wound is not "undone" by the balefire.
Therefore your argument that Sammael's being killed by Mashadar, not balefire,
creates complications does not hold water. Rand's heel wound would not
necessarily have been erased by use of balefire.
P Bowles
Okay, so I'm a little off with the timing but the interpretation is still valid
- it's hard to believe Flinn's treatment went unnoticed and unmentioned by her,
especially since she'd made a point of noticing his pain when she bonded him.
Nor does this passage imply that the wounds Alanna refers to are anything but
the old ones; Cadsuane is hardly going to be interested in a damaged foot. As I
recall, Cadsuane appears to know what Alanna means, which only makes sense in
Flinn's case since she was there watching him at the time.
Philip Bowles
Fairfax Sheild McCandlish IV
eska <sign_of_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3A37F576...@yahoo.com...
>
>
> TK421 wrote:
>
> "When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the
moment
> of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame
touched
> it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it
ceases
> to exist. The strongest [Moiraine] can manage will remove only a few
seconds
> from the Pattern...For as far back as you destroy [something], whatever it
did
> during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those
who
> saw or experienced it." [TFOH: 6, Gateways, 119]
An interesting point this brings up is that perhaps Mashadar would have
behaved differently had Liah not been there: It may have gone for Sammael
immediately rather than Liah first. Perhaps Rand's balefiring of Liah caused
Mashadar, much like Nynaeve's boat in the same book, to jump to where it
would have been had Liah/the boat rowers never existed. IE all over Sammael.
TK421
wrote:
>"He was injured, and then not, but I don't think a sister Healed him."
>--TPoD 12, New Alliances
The emphasis on a "sister" Healing him could lend us to the fact that it
was Flinn, but wouldn't she somehow feel that, too? Or she should at least
feel his fatigue after being healed, unless Flinn has discovered how to
heal w/o fatigue.
Is everyone in agreement then that this is referring to Padan Fain's ambush
in the fog and not to Sammael's lightning during the battle of Illian? I'm
not so sure.
P Bowles
<TK...@tworivers.andor.wot> writes:
>The emphasis on a "sister" Healing him could lend us to the fact that it
>was Flinn, but wouldn't she somehow feel that, too?
What Flinn did wasn't Healing - he just used saidin to cut them off from the
rest of Rand's body, creating a barrier which Alanna presumably couldn't 'feel'
through.
Philip Bowles
TSignus
>>was Flinn, but wouldn't she somehow feel that, too?
>
>What Flinn did wasn't Healing - he just used saidin to cut them off from the
>rest of Rand's body, creating a barrier which Alanna presumably couldn't
>'feel'
>through.
>
No, we know it can be "felt through" over the warder bond. The first thing all
the girls exclaim about in WH when they bond Rand is how they can't understand
how he is able to bear the pain of his wound. Seems they can feel through the
barrier Flinn made.
-TS
TK421
answered this question when I posted it the first time, I have expanded it
to be sure my question is clear. This is all brand new speculation of
course since the news came out that RJ confirmed Sammy was definitely
killed by Mashadar.
[TPoD p.275] Alanna to Cadsuane: "He was injured, and then not, but I don't
think a sister Healed him. The wounds no one could Heal are still there."
Some have said this is referring to how Flinn sealed off the wounds Rand
had in his side, the most recent one coming from Fain's dagger while
fighting the "fog monster" in ACoS 36 (stab #2). However, it is impossible
for Alanna to be referring to those two particular wounds in his side. The
statement should _not_ be understood as "I don't think a SISTER Healed him"
(therefore Flinn must have done something) but instead "I don't think a
sister HEALED him" (therefore the injury's disappearance must be attributed
to something other than Healing).
First of all, Cadsuane was there when Flinn sealed off the wounds, so why
would she question Alanna about something she already knew firsthand?
Second, if you notice the way Alanna mentions the wounds, she is referring
first to an injury Rand sustained, and then seperately to the two
unHealable wounds. It makes no sense for her to say he was injured (stab
#2) and but then not (no more stab #2), yet stab #1 and #2 are still there.
If she is aware of both stab wounds _after_ Rand was "injured and then
not," then how could she have felt the injury disappear? The wound that
disappeared can not be stab #2, but something else instead.
This mysterious disappearing wound is of course the injury Rand sustained
on the heel while tracking Sammael in Illian. [ACOS p. 651] Rand describes
his injury as inflicted by red wires or filaments of "fire and air woven in
a way he had not known." In order for him to actually see the weaves that
had just injured him, they must have been made from saidin and therefore by
a man. We assume this to be Sammael. Now what we need to discover is what
caused the wound to disappear.
Now fast forward to Shadar Logoth. Rand sees Sammael waiting for him in
the shadows near the Waygate. Mashadar begins to move toward him. Rand
hears Liah scream and sees Sammael look up at her. Rand balefires her,
then looks down to see nothing but Mashadar where Sammael was, so it must
have killed him. RJ confirmed that Mashadar killed Sammael.
But this is an unsatisfactory result because it does not account for the
disappearing would, or "Healed heel" as I like to call it. That would
indicate, as we used to think, that balefire was used to kill Sammael,
thereby erasing Rand's injury and seamlessly accounting for what Alanna
sensed through the Bond.
So here is the question that we must find an answer to: If Sammael was
killed by Mashadar and not by balefire, what happened to Rand's foot
injury?
Despite what RJ says, the evidence screams "balefire." How else could that
would disappear? But the only person in the scene who was balefired was
Liah. We know a man injured Rand. We know Sammael died from Mashadar. We
know Liah was balefired. Doesn't this seem to indicate that Liah is not
who she seems to be? I know it's a VERY unlikely conclusion, but I don't
see where else to go. Any suggestions?
mpfjr
wrote:
>This is a bit long, but hang in there because it's worth it. Since nobody
>answered this question when I posted it the first time, I have expanded it
>to be sure my question is clear. This is all brand new speculation of
[snip.snip]
>Despite what RJ says, the evidence screams "balefire." How else could that
>would disappear? But the only person in the scene who was balefired was
>Liah. We know a man injured Rand. We know Sammael died from Mashadar. We
>know Liah was balefired. Doesn't this seem to indicate that Liah is not
>who she seems to be? I know it's a VERY unlikely conclusion, but I don't
>see where else to go. Any suggestions?
>
Two ideas.
1. The male chosen who was recycled in a girls body is working with
Sam and assumed the identity of Liah. He sent the saidin concocted
red filaments after Rand and tagged Rand's heel.
Because the body is Female, the scream would be female (which it was)
and when Rand balefired her, his injury vanished.
2. The Sam at the gate was not Sam. It was someone else being used as
a decoy. A Dark Friend or something. Sam created an illusion around
that person and said "stay here, don't go anywhere, when 'al Thor
comes, I'll get him from behind" Then he created an illusion of Liah
around himself. Rand Balefires Liah (Sam) and his injury vanished.
Problem I have with #1
From what I understand, only Grendel seems to work with Sam. No
evidence of anyone else helping. Especially since we would understand
that after "just" being recycled you would not be inclined to work
with Sam to bump off Rand against the DO's wishes.
Problem I have with #2
The creator said that Mashadar killed Sam and that "he is toast".
Well, that would destroy my # 2 idea in-and-of itself, BUT here is
some info.
Quote from ACoS Chapter 41 Page 660:
""Liah," he whispered. Unconsciously he reached out, as though he
could stretch his arm across the intervening distance and pull her
away. NOTHING COULD SAVE WHAT MASHADAR TOUCHED, THOUGH, NO MORE THAN
ANYTHING COULD HAVE SAVED HIM HAD FAIN'S DAGGER PLUNGED INTO HIS
HEART. "Liah," he whispered. And Balefire leaped from his hand."
This part makes it pretty clear that Mashadar tagged Liah first. That
since nothing could survive that touch, she was basically already
dead. Not in the true sense of dead, but he is saying she might as
well be dead. That you can scratch her name off the list.
Now, he said in the chat room on CNN that Mashadar killed Sam. Well?
Could you not make a connection from what we know of RJ's sick sense
of humor that he is just playing word games with us for a change? That
instead of saying "Read and Find Out" he decided to try another
tactic. If idea # 2 above is proven true, he is not exactly lying is
he?
This theory would connect all the dots. It would explain how the
Great General Samuel is beaten so easily, it would explain how Rand's
heel was healed, it would explain Allanna's feelings on the matter.
TK421
>1. The male chosen who was recycled in a girls body is working with
>Sam and assumed the identity of Liah. He sent the saidin concocted
>red filaments after Rand and tagged Rand's heel. Because the body
>is Female, the scream would be female (which it was)
>and when Rand balefired her, his injury vanished.
Remember that she/he is posing as Halima with the Salidar Aes Sedai. That
means that if Aran'gar was posing as Liah in SL, and Liah was balefired,
then there would be no more Aran'gar OR Halima. As we see, Halima is very
much alive and well and toying with the SAS after Sammael is dead.
>2. The Sam at the gate was not Sam. It was someone else being used as
>a decoy. A Dark Friend or something. Sam created an illusion around
>that person and said "stay here, don't go anywhere, when 'al Thor
>comes, I'll get him from behind" Then he created an illusion of Liah
>around himself. Rand Balefires Liah (Sam) and his injury vanished.
>Quote from ACoS Chapter 41 Page 660:
>"NOTHING COULD SAVE WHAT MASHADAR TOUCHED, THOUGH, NO MORE THAN
>ANYTHING COULD HAVE SAVED HIM HAD FAIN'S DAGGER PLUNGED INTO HIS
>HEART."
This is a possibility. The Sammael that we think was killed by Mashadar
was not the "Sammael" in the square near the Waygate, but in fact was
posing as Liah. According to your theory, as soon as "Liah" was touched by
Mashadar, Rand considered her dead. That might be enough to justify RJ's
recent comments. Then before she physically died, Rand balefires "Liah"
and undoes the weave that hurt his foot. The only problem I have is the
scream. Rand identified is as a woman's scream. Would Sammael (cloaked as
Liah)have sounded like a woman when he talked? Do we have any examples of
someone disguising themselves with the OP who looks and talks like a member
of the opposite sex? That might make your theory a bit of a stretch to
prove.
P Bowles
<TK...@tworivers.andor.wot> writes:
>Some have said this is referring to how Flinn sealed off the wounds Rand
>had in his side, the most recent one coming from Fain's dagger while
>fighting the "fog monster" in ACoS 36 (stab #2). However, it is impossible
>for Alanna to be referring to those two particular wounds in his side. The
>statement should _not_ be understood as "I don't think a SISTER Healed him"
>(therefore Flinn must have done something) but instead "I don't think a
>sister HEALED him" (therefore the injury's disappearance must be attributed
>to something other than Healing).
What Flinn did was something other that Healing - the wounds haven't been
Healed or they wouldn't still be in his side; they've just been 'cut off' from
the rest of Rand by a barrier of saidin.
>But this is an unsatisfactory result because it does not account for the
>disappearing would, or "Healed heel" as I like to call it. That would
>indicate, as we used to think, that balefire was used to kill Sammael,
>thereby erasing Rand's injury and seamlessly accounting for what Alanna
>sensed through the Bond.
Balefire doesn't work like that; if Sammy had been balefired, and the passage
itself makes it very clear that whatever did kill him Rand's balefire didn't,
there would never have been an injury for Alanna to sense, because Sammael
would have died before he caused it.
Philip Bowles
Binh Vo
Except that balefire does not erase memories, so Alanna
would still remember having sensed a wound that was never
there. There are several references to this throughout the
series.
Daniel Rouk
"TK421" <TK...@tworivers.andor.wot> wrote in message
> Remember that she/he is posing as Halima with the Salidar Aes Sedai. That
> means that if Aran'gar was posing as Liah in SL, and Liah was balefired,
> then there would be no more Aran'gar OR Halima. As we see, Halima is very
> much alive and well and toying with the SAS after Sammael is dead.
Not to mention that [s]he is at the Battle of the Clensing Taint... very
impressive feat for a supposed balefire'd soul.
mpfjr
[snip to shorten]
>
>>But this is an unsatisfactory result because it does not account for the
>>disappearing would, or "Healed heel" as I like to call it. That would
>>indicate, as we used to think, that balefire was used to kill Sammael,
>>thereby erasing Rand's injury and seamlessly accounting for what Alanna
>>sensed through the Bond.
>
>Balefire doesn't work like that; if Sammy had been balefired, and the passage
>itself makes it very clear that whatever did kill him Rand's balefire didn't,
>there would never have been an injury for Alanna to sense, because Sammael
>would have died before he caused it.
>
>Philip Bowles
So the question that TK421 asked remains unanswered: What happend to
the injury to Rand's Heel that Alanna felt and then realized it was
gone?
Has Rand somehow discovered how to heal himself? Did LTT Heal Rand?
Shane
20001215053016.08022.00000909@nso
-mg.aol.com>,
time he sustained it until Sam was BF. To
her it would have just disappeared when Sam
was BF, like it hadn't even been there, but
her memories of him being injured would
remain. But you are right about the passage
making it pretty clear Rand didn't BF Sam,
unless Sam had disguised himself to be Leah,
an idea I've seen mentioned by a couple of
people in this thread.
P Bowles
writes:
>But she would have felt his wound from the
>time he sustained it until Sam was BF. To
>her it would have just disappeared when Sam
>was BF, like it hadn't even been there, but
>her memories of him being injured would
>remain. But you are right about the passage
>making it pretty clear Rand didn't BF Sam,
>unless Sam had disguised himself to be Leah,
>an idea I've seen mentioned by a couple of
>people in this thread.
But if that was the case who was playing the part of Sammael while Liah was
there? When she first appeared Rand saw both of them.
Philip Bowles
TK421
>Balefire doesn't work like that; if Sammy had been balefired, and the passage
>itself makes it very clear that whatever did kill him Rand's balefire didn't,
>there would never have been an injury for Alanna to sense, because Sammael
>would have died before he caused it.
>
>Philip Bowles
I agree. Thanks for setting me straight. Whoever inflicted Rand's injury
could not have been balefired, or it would have been as if the would never
existed. That includes all memories of it as well. So we're back to
square one, then. I still don't think that Alanna was talking about what
Flinn did to Rand's two wounds in his side. I am looking for a
semi-coherent account of what happened because I sure can't come up with
one.
Marc Zappala
TK421 wrote in message ...
>On 15 Dec 2000 10:30:16 GMT, pbo...@aol.com (P Bowles) wrote:
>
>
>I agree. Thanks for setting me straight. Whoever inflicted Rand's injury
>could not have been balefired, or it would have been as if the would never
>existed. That includes all memories of it as well.
What? No. Remember when Rhavin killed Asmo and Mat? And Asmodean was
thinking about how so many people told him they could have sworn he was
dead.
Balefire erases everything but memories. Think about it. If balefire
erased memories, how would anyone know it's danger?
Marc
Duncan J Macdonald
I must disagree with the both of you.
First: balefire doesn't work like that. It burns a thread _backward_
in the Pattern an amount of time directly proportional to the strength
of balefire used. See Moiraine's description in TFoH as well as
Rand's use against the Darkhounds and Rahvin. Rand is clearly able to
"dial-in" the amount of power used to limit the time bending effects.
In order for Sammael's thread to be burned back _prior_ to his attack
on Rand in Illian, an amount of power equal to that employed on Rahvin
would be needed - and no such event occurred. Unless you posit that
one of the male Chosen used the TP when Rand wasn't looking, but RJ
killed that idea.
Second: Memories are the one thing specifically exempted from erasure
in a balefire event. Again, back in Rhuidean, Mat remembers the
Darkhound chewing completely through the door. Because of the
Balefire, that event didn't happen - but both Mat and Rand remember
it.
Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
In this case, the simplest answer is also the correct one.
Duncan
--
Duncan J Macdonald -- macdonal...@hq.navy.mil
"Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out
to get you."
mpfjr
<macdo...@home.com> wrote:
[poof]
>
>I must disagree with the both of you.
>
>First: balefire doesn't work like that. It burns a thread _backward_
>in the Pattern an amount of time directly proportional to the strength
>of balefire used. See Moiraine's description in TFoH as well as
>Rand's use against the Darkhounds and Rahvin. Rand is clearly able to
>"dial-in" the amount of power used to limit the time bending effects.
>In order for Sammael's thread to be burned back _prior_ to his attack
>on Rand in Illian, an amount of power equal to that employed on Rahvin
>would be needed - and no such event occurred. Unless you posit that
>one of the male Chosen used the TP when Rand wasn't looking, but RJ
>killed that idea.
>
>Second: Memories are the one thing specifically exempted from erasure
>in a balefire event. Again, back in Rhuidean, Mat remembers the
>Darkhound chewing completely through the door. Because of the
>Balefire, that event didn't happen - but both Mat and Rand remember
>it.
>
>Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
>In this case, the simplest answer is also the correct one.
>
>Duncan
oh? When did Flinn heal him? I don't remember reading that part.
Could you please cite book/chapter/page that supports this.
Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
being healed by someone?
The injury ceased to exist but her memory of it did not. The person
who caused his injury was therefore balefired. Who was it that caused
it? That is of course open to speculation. The only event of
Balefireing that we read was when Rand balefired Liah. Since Rand
felt and saw the weaves of red filiments that hit his heel, it was
Saidin. So either Liah could channel Saidin somehow or someone
balefired someone off screen.
We know that Sam managed to locate a stasis box and had all kinds of
goodies in it. Perhaps one of them allows anyone to channel saidin.
Like the balefire Rod that one of Moggy's BA flunkies had. Or maybe
the device used saidin to shoot the red filament things. As Rand
points out, it was a weave that he did not think possible. Maybe
becausse it was from a gadget and not a person. Liah used it to
attack Rand in Illian and when Rand balefired her, it erased her back
before she did it and there ya go.
Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
Duncan J Macdonald
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:55:42 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> [poof]
> >
> >I must disagree with the both of you.
<snip the reasons why>
> >Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
> >In this case, the simplest answer is also the correct one.
> oh? When did Flinn heal him? I don't remember reading that part.
> Could you please cite book/chapter/page that supports this.
I will resist being a total asshole, and not repost Alanna's quote in
answer to this.
Simply, not everything that happens, happens on-screen. After
the Shadar Logoth scene in PoD, Rand returns to Illian where his
Asha'man and conventional forces are in the process of/have completed
capturing the city. Rand knows that Flinn can heal. Rand gets Flinn to
heal his heel. Perfectly logical series of events, and the fact that
it is not shown on-screen doesn't invalidate it, it merely doesn't
confirm it. (Which allows this discussion to proceed)
> Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
> being healed by someone?
Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
erased by balefire.
> The injury ceased to exist but her memory of it did not. The person
> who caused his injury was therefore balefired.
That is a side effect of balefire, but not exclusive to it. When
someone is Healed, the injuries cease to exist, but memories of it do
not.
> Who was it that caused it? That is of course open to speculation.
> The only event of Balefireing that we read was when Rand balefired Liah.
> Since Rand felt and saw the weaves of red filiments that hit his heel,
> it was Saidin.
Granted.
> So either Liah could channel Saidin somehow or someone balefired someone
> off screen.
But, RJ has stated that Sammael was killed by Mashadar, not balefired.
Since Liah _was_ balefired, she was not Sammael in disguise. Further,
given Rand's abilities, he would have likely felt anyone in Shadar
Logoth wielding balefire, either _saidin_ or _saidar_ produced. This
leaves TP or _ter'angreal_ produced balefire.
We have some evidence that a channeler can sense the residue of the
balefire weave, regardless of the source used to produce it. See
Moiraine sensing Rand's use of balefire when Rand saved Mat in
Rhuidean.
Also, since Rand was in visual contact with Sammael, Rand would have
noticed a bar of balefire in his vicinity.
> We know that Sam managed to locate a stasis box and had all kinds of
> goodies in it. Perhaps one of them allows anyone to channel saidin.
> Like the balefire Rod that one of Moggy's BA flunkies had. Or maybe
> the device used saidin to shoot the red filament things. As Rand
> points out, it was a weave that he did not think possible. Maybe
> because it was from a gadget and not a person. Liah used it to
> attack Rand in Illian and when Rand balefired her, it erased her back
> before she did it and there ya go.
A couple of points here. The time difference between the attacks in
Illian and the balefire event in Shadar Logoth is large enough that a
significantly large amount of balefire would be needed to remove it.
Such an amount was not seen. Secondly, having Liah in both places
requires her to be a channeler with the power and knowledge of
Traveling. How many channelers are there who have that amount of
power and also know enough about Liah to accurately disguise
themselves to the extent that Rand recognises her? Just one, and that
one is Sammael (if he ran into Liah in Shadar Logoth during one of his
prepatory trips there).
> Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
Agreed. This, however, is not one of them.
<Insert IMHO and YMOV here>
mpfjr
<macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>mpfjr said
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:55:42 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
>> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>> [poof]
>> >
>> >I must disagree with the both of you.
>
><snip the reasons why>
>
>> >Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
>> >In this case, the simplest answer is also the correct one.
>
>> oh? When did Flinn heal him? I don't remember reading that part.
>> Could you please cite book/chapter/page that supports this.
>
>I will resist being a total asshole, and not repost Alanna's quote in
>answer to this.
>
Thanks
>Simply, not everything that happens, happens on-screen.
Which was one of my points below.
> After
>the Shadar Logoth scene in PoD, Rand returns to Illian where his
>Asha'man and conventional forces are in the process of/have completed
>capturing the city. Rand knows that Flinn can heal. Rand gets Flinn to
>heal his heel. Perfectly logical series of events, and the fact that
>it is not shown on-screen doesn't invalidate it, it merely doesn't
>confirm it. (Which allows this discussion to proceed)
Ok, but when a person is Healed either with Saidar or Saidin the
person being Healed feels it. They receive some degree of pain. Also
immediately afterwards they feel exhausted (since most of the energy
comes from them). My point is that Alanna would have felt these
effects in close proximity and therefore would have concluded that he
was just Healed by someone. She did not state this and her statement
to Cad is so strange that it shouts that his injury was THERE and then
NOT. It wasn't Healed, it was Erased.
>
>> Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
>> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
>> being healed by someone?
>
>Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
>felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
>a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
>erased by balefire.
Repeat of above: She would have felt the effects on his body of a
healing by either Saidar or Saidin.
>
>> The injury ceased to exist but her memory of it did not. The person
>> who caused his injury was therefore balefired.
>
>That is a side effect of balefire, but not exclusive to it. When
>someone is Healed, the injuries cease to exist, but memories of it do
>not.
Repeating again: She did not Feel him being heeled. Which she would
have.
>
>> Who was it that caused it? That is of course open to speculation.
>> The only event of Balefireing that we read was when Rand balefired Liah.
>> Since Rand felt and saw the weaves of red filiments that hit his heel,
>> it was Saidin.
>
>Granted.
Thanks.
>
>> So either Liah could channel Saidin somehow or someone balefired someone
>> off screen.
>
>But, RJ has stated that Sammael was killed by Mashadar, not balefired.
>Since Liah _was_ balefired, she was not Sammael in disguise. Further,
>given Rand's abilities, he would have likely felt anyone in Shadar
>Logoth wielding balefire, either _saidin_ or _saidar_ produced. This
>leaves TP or _ter'angreal_ produced balefire.
I agree that it is very very unclear and confusing. This whole thing
is a mess. RJ probably made a mistake and now he can't take it back.
But one of the theories that I have is that RJ is playing with words.
Just after Mashadar grabs onto Liah's leg, There is a series of
thoughts that Rand thinks. One of which is a descriptions of how
already dead she is. How once Mashadar has her, she is as dead as he
would have been had Fain plunged that dagger into his heart.
RJ could be saying that Mashadar got Sam in disguise which caused Rand
to balefire him which erased his heel injury. Since Mashadar got
him/her first, he could say that Mashadar killed him/her. This causes
us more confusion and speculation that if he were to say his usual
RAFO. Therefore he probably had it planned from the beginning to say
something like that during his CNN chat to throw us all off. He is
not exactly lying, but he is not telling the whole truth either. AS
kind of half-truths.
>
>We have some evidence that a channeler can sense the residue of the
>balefire weave, regardless of the source used to produce it. See
>Moiraine sensing Rand's use of balefire when Rand saved Mat in
>Rhuidean.
>
>Also, since Rand was in visual contact with Sammael, Rand would have
>noticed a bar of balefire in his vicinity.
I agree with you. Assuming you are correct.
>
>> We know that Sam managed to locate a stasis box and had all kinds of
>> goodies in it. Perhaps one of them allows anyone to channel saidin.
>> Like the balefire Rod that one of Moggy's BA flunkies had. Or maybe
>> the device used saidin to shoot the red filament things. As Rand
>> points out, it was a weave that he did not think possible. Maybe
>> because it was from a gadget and not a person. Liah used it to
>> attack Rand in Illian and when Rand balefired her, it erased her back
>> before she did it and there ya go.
>
>A couple of points here. The time difference between the attacks in
>Illian and the balefire event in Shadar Logoth is large enough that a
>significantly large amount of balefire would be needed to remove it.
>Such an amount was not seen.
I would agree with this except it seems that he did not attempt to
control the amount of Balefire he shot in her direction. Since he
made the statement that she was as good as dead already, perhaps he
was trying to erase Mashadar back before it attacked her and he had
seen the effects of a small amount of balefire already had on Mashadar
(just caused it to retreat) so maybe he gave it everything he had?
> Secondly, having Liah in both places
>requires her to be a channeler with the power and knowledge of
>Traveling.
She could have been following Sam around. She probably was a Dark
Friend from the beginning.
> How many channelers are there who have that amount of
>power and also know enough about Liah to accurately disguise
>themselves to the extent that Rand recognises her? Just one, and that
>one is Sammael (if he ran into Liah in Shadar Logoth during one of his
>prepatory trips there).
exactly. But maybe she "got lost" there as part of a plan that Sam,
the Great General of the DO's army, devised from the beginning.
>
>> Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
>
>Agreed. This, however, is not one of them.
I am not convinced.
><Insert IMHO and YMOV here>
>
>Duncan
Micheal
TK421
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:44:51 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
><macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>>> >Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
I know I'm being technical, but there's a confusion surrounding exactly
what Flinn did to Rand. Let me cut and paste something from my earlier
post to see what you think:
[TPoD p.275] Alanna to Cadsuane: "He was injured, and then not, but I don't
think a sister Healed him. The wounds no one could Heal are still there."
Some have said this is referring to how Flinn sealed off the wounds Rand
had in his side, the most recent one coming from Fain's dagger while
fighting the "fog monster" in ACoS 36 (stab #2). However, it is impossible
for Alanna to be referring to those two particular wounds in his side. The
statement should _not_ be understood as "I don't think a SISTER Healed him"
(therefore Flinn must have done something) but instead "I don't think a
sister HEALED him" (therefore the injury's disappearance must be attributed
to something other than Healing).
First of all, Cadsuane was there when Flinn sealed off the wounds, so why
would she question Alanna about something she already knew firsthand?
Second, if you notice the way Alanna mentions the wounds, she is referring
first to an injury Rand sustained, and then seperately to the two
unHealable wounds. It makes no sense for her to say he was injured (stab
#2) and but then not (no more stab #2), yet stab #1 and #2 are still there.
If she is aware of both stab wounds _after_ Rand was "injured and then
not," then how could she have felt the injury disappear? The wound that
disappeared can not be stab #2, but something else instead.
This mysterious disappearing wound is of course the injury Rand sustained
on the heel while tracking Sammael in Illian. [ACOS p. 651] Rand describes
his injury as inflicted by red wires or filaments of "fire and air woven in
a way he had not known."
We have two options: 1) Sammael weaved the web that injured Rand, but the
would was simply Healed off-screen (since we know it wasn't undone by
balefire). If the explanation was that simple, it seems strange that
Alanna mentions it without RJ specifically saying what happened. If it was
as simple as an off-screen healing, why the mystery about who healed him?
Why even mention it? 2) The weave was made by someone else, not Sammael.
That person was somehow balefired at an undisclosed location by and
undisclosed person at an undisclosed time. Yeah, right. That's very
unlikely. Because RJ will have to digress at some point in the future to
explain what happened.
Whether Alanna is referring to Flinn or something else in the quote,
niether conclusion is satisfactory to me.
Duncan J Macdonald
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:03:53 GMT, mpfjr <mp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:44:51 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> ><macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >>> >Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
>
> I know I'm being technical, but there's a confusion surrounding exactly
> what Flinn did to Rand. Let me cut and paste something from my earlier
> post to see what you think:
No confusion on what he did, merely which time.
> [TPoD p.275] Alanna to Cadsuane: "He was injured, and then not, but I don't
> think a sister Healed him. The wounds no one could Heal are still there."
>
> Some have said this is referring to how Flinn sealed off the wounds Rand
> had in his side, the most recent one coming from Fain's dagger while
> fighting the "fog monster" in ACoS 36 (stab #2). However, it is impossible
> for Alanna to be referring to those two particular wounds in his side.
Well, actually Alanna does refer to those wounds. Her statement, "The
wounds no one could Heal are still there." indicates that.
> The
> statement should _not_ be understood as "I don't think a SISTER Healed him"
> (therefore Flinn must have done something) but instead "I don't think a
> sister HEALED him" (therefore the injury's disappearance must be attributed
> to something other than Healing).
Since Alanna would likely have heard about Rand being Healed
(somewhat) by Flinn after the knife attack, I would lend more credence
to the first option. I do read that statement as no _Sister_ Healed
him. She may have no way of telling how Rand reacted to Flinn's
healing, as Rand was unconscious at the time, and we have no data on
the Warder Bond that indicates it working during periods of
unconsciousness. So, she knows that Flinn Healed (partially) Rand's
two wounds, but has no empirical data on how it feels through the
Bond.
> First of all, Cadsuane was there when Flinn sealed off the wounds, so why
> would she question Alanna about something she already knew firsthand?
After re-reading the passage, Cadsuane did not question Alanna during
that scene. It is implied that Cadsuane has questioned her repeatedly
on previous occasions, hence Alanna's references to "badgering". In
this instance, Cadsuane has just finished threatening Alanna for
filling herself with _saidar_. Alanna backs down, and sullenly repeats
information that she has given before.
To me, this is an indication of Cadsuane trying to determine what,
exactly, can be learned from the Bond with Rand. She means to keep
track of him, and Alanna is her only link. So, the questioning was not
about the Healing, but about what the limits of the Bond are.
> Second, if you notice the way Alanna mentions the wounds, she is referring
> first to an injury Rand sustained, and then seperately to the two
> unHealable wounds. It makes no sense for her to say he was injured (stab
> #2) and but then not (no more stab #2), yet stab #1 and #2 are still there.
> If she is aware of both stab wounds _after_ Rand was "injured and then
> not," then how could she have felt the injury disappear? The wound that
> disappeared can not be stab #2, but something else instead.
Agreed. The descriptions are different. One is an injury, and the
other is specific to the Wounds That Will Not Heal (TM).
> This mysterious disappearing wound is of course the injury Rand sustained
> on the heel while tracking Sammael in Illian. [ACOS p. 651] Rand describes
> his injury as inflicted by red wires or filaments of "fire and air woven in
> a way he had not known."
Roger, concur.
> We have two options: 1) Sammael weaved the web that injured Rand, but the
> would was simply Healed off-screen (since we know it wasn't undone by
> balefire). If the explanation was that simple, it seems strange that
> Alanna mentions it without RJ specifically saying what happened. If it was
> as simple as an off-screen healing, why the mystery about who healed him?
Perhaps because Alanna wasn't there? And the Bond with Rand does not
function normally as do standard Warder Bonds? Alanna also mentions
that Rand is to the south, possibly in Illian, but the distance is too
far to be sure. Perhaps the Bond is distance limited, and the amount
of information transmitted is inversely proportional to the distance
between Bonder and Bondee?
> Why even mention it? 2) The weave was made by someone else, not Sammael.
> That person was somehow balefired at an undisclosed location by and
> undisclosed person at an undisclosed time. Yeah, right. That's very
> unlikely. Because RJ will have to digress at some point in the future to
> explain what happened.
Well, actually, he won't (RJ that is). He doesn't _have_ to do
_anything_.
> Whether Alanna is referring to Flinn or something else in the quote,
> niether conclusion is satisfactory to me.
For me, Flinn Healing Rand's foot once Rand returned to Illian is a
simple answer to this, as well as a likely one. On the other hand,
maybe Bashere knows an old Saldean home remedy made of crushed ice
peppers mixed with leatherleaf sap which neatly removes the pain of
minor wounds.
Duncan J Macdonald
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:44:51 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >mpfjr said
> >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:55:42 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> >> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> [poof]
> >> >
> >> >I must disagree with the both of you.
> >
> ><snip the reasons why>
> >
> >> >Therefore, what Alanna said is true - no Sister Healed him. Flinn did.
> >> >In this case, the simplest answer is also the correct one.
> >
> >> oh? When did Flinn heal him? I don't remember reading that part.
> >> Could you please cite book/chapter/page that supports this.
> >
> >I will resist being a total asshole, and not repost Alanna's quote in
> >answer to this.
> >
>
> Thanks
You're welcome.
> >Simply, not everything that happens, happens on-screen.
>
> Which was one of my points below.
<snip my theory that Rand gets Flinn to heal his heel>
> Ok, but when a person is Healed either with Saidar or Saidin the
> person being Healed feels it. They receive some degree of pain. Also
> immediately afterwards they feel exhausted (since most of the energy
> comes from them). My point is that Alanna would have felt these
> effects in close proximity and therefore would have concluded that he
> was just Healed by someone. She did not state this and her statement
> to Cad is so strange that it shouts that his injury was THERE and then
> NOT. It wasn't Healed, it was Erased.
As I just got done saying to TK421 (damn, but that's awkward) Alanna
is so far away from Rand, that she can't swear to his location:
"He leaps about, Traveling, but he's still in the South. Somewhere in
Illian, I think, but at this distance, he could be in Tear for all I
know. He's full of rage, and pain, and suspicion. There isn't any
more, Cadsuane. There isn't!"
<TPoD, Tor hb, 12, _New Alliances_, pg 275>
Remember, this isn't the first time Alanna's told Cadsuane all of
this. Cadsuane has asked her repeatedly about what she senses through
the Bond, to the point that Alanna is feeling badgered about it, and
repeats, sullenly, her list of things that she has felt.
The Bond with Rand is not perfect, it is broken somehow, so it is
reasonable to assume that if Alanna did not feel the Healing, it is
because 1) she's too far away, 2) this particular Bond does not
transmit that information, or 3) Rand is so full of rage, pain, and
suspicion that lesser feelings like exhaustion don't get above the
background noise.
> >> Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
> >> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
> >> being healed by someone?
See above - I'll grant that it is not conclusive, but I believe that
there is enough doubt there to answer your question with a resounding
"Maybe".
> >Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
> >felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
> >a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
> >erased by balefire.
>
> Repeat of above: She would have felt the effects on his body of a
> healing by either Saidar or Saidin.
Repeat of above: Maybe, maybe not.
> >> The injury ceased to exist but her memory of it did not. The person
> >> who caused his injury was therefore balefired.
> >
> >That is a side effect of balefire, but not exclusive to it. When
> >someone is Healed, the injuries cease to exist, but memories of it do
> >not.
>
> Repeating again: She did not Feel him being heeled. Which she would
> have.
Repeating again: Maybe, maybe not.
<snip>
> >But, RJ has stated that Sammael was killed by Mashadar, not balefired.
> >Since Liah _was_ balefired, she was not Sammael in disguise. Further,
> >given Rand's abilities, he would have likely felt anyone in Shadar
> >Logoth wielding balefire, either _saidin_ or _saidar_ produced. This
> >leaves TP or _ter'angreal_ produced balefire.
>
> I agree that it is very very unclear and confusing. This whole thing
> is a mess. RJ probably made a mistake and now he can't take it back.
Hey, I'm disappointed that Sammael is "toast" as well. When we didn't
see him die on-screen, I figured that he Traveled outta there when
Rand started tossing balefire around, and was lying low and making
nefarious plans in the background, unknown to anyone but himself, his
minions, and the DO.
> But one of the theories that I have is that RJ is playing with words.
> Just after Mashadar grabs onto Liah's leg, There is a series of
> thoughts that Rand thinks. One of which is a descriptions of how
> already dead she is. How once Mashadar has her, she is as dead as he
> would have been had Fain plunged that dagger into his heart.
> RJ could be saying that Mashadar got Sam in disguise which caused Rand
> to balefire him which erased his heel injury. Since Mashadar got
> him/her first, he could say that Mashadar killed him/her. This causes
> us more confusion and speculation that if he were to say his usual
> RAFO. Therefore he probably had it planned from the beginning to say
> something like that during his CNN chat to throw us all off. He is
> not exactly lying, but he is not telling the whole truth either. AS
> kind of half-truths.
I don't think so. While RJ's profession is playing with words, he has
avoided being that third-rate about it (with the exception of Min's
pun about _toh_ in WH). While I agree that an author of a continuing
series should be circumspect in the amount of information given
outside of his writings, I don't believe that RJ is purposely handing
out red herrings during personal appearances. More people read his
works than read chat transcripts or newsgroups. If he's going to
confuse us, he'll do it in writing.
> >
> >We have some evidence that a channeler can sense the residue of the
> >balefire weave, regardless of the source used to produce it. See
> >Moiraine sensing Rand's use of balefire when Rand saved Mat in
> >Rhuidean.
> >
> >Also, since Rand was in visual contact with Sammael, Rand would have
> >noticed a bar of balefire in his vicinity.
>
> I agree with you. Assuming you are correct.
Thanks.
<snip>
> >The time difference between the attacks in
> >Illian and the balefire event in Shadar Logoth is large enough that a
> >significantly large amount of balefire would be needed to remove it.
> >Such an amount was not seen.
>
> I would agree with this except it seems that he did not attempt to
> control the amount of Balefire he shot in her direction. Since he
> made the statement that she was as good as dead already, perhaps he
> was trying to erase Mashadar back before it attacked her and he had
> seen the effects of a small amount of balefire already had on Mashadar
> (just caused it to retreat) so maybe he gave it everything he had?
I don't think that he gave it all he got. The only time we've seen
that amount of balefire:
"_Saidin_ raged inside Rand, and he loosed it all. Not to Heal.
'Rahvin!' he screamed, and balefire flew from his hands, molten light
thicker than a man, driven by all the Power he could draw.
It struck the Forsaken, and Rhavin ceased to exist. The Darkhounds in
Rhuidean had become motes before they vanished, whatever kind of life
they had had struggling to continue, or the Pattern struggling to
maintain itself even for them. Before this, Rahvin simply ...
ceased.'
<TFoH, Tor pb, 55, _The Threads Burn_, pp947-948>
Compare this to the description in ACoS:
" ... And balefire leaped from his hand.
For less than a heartbeat, the shape of her still seemed to be there,
all in stark blacks and snowy whites, and then she was gone, dead
before her agony began."
<ACoS, Tor hb, 41, _A Crown of Swords_, pg 660>
These are obviously different amounts of balefire. Rand uses both
hands with Rahvin, and only one with Liah. Rahvin ceased instantly,
Liah's shape remained for less than a heartbeat, and the Darkhounds
became motes, seemingly struggling against the balefire before they
vanished.
I'll postulate that these are three levels of balefire power, each one
stronger that the last, starting with the Darkhounds, then Liah, and
finally Rahvin. Darkhound level erases a few seconds (there were
still pawprints in the floor in Rhuidean), Liah level erases 10
seconds or so, and Rahvin level erases 30 minutes or so.
I'm open to looking at other timelines for this.
<snip Did Sammael run into Liah earlier>
> exactly. But maybe she "got lost" there as part of a plan that Sam,
> the Great General of the DO's army, devised from the beginning.
This idea has merit, as we are never sure _why_ she got lost in the
first place. The only DF Maiden that we have seen before was being
controlled by Sammael. This makes it possible that Liah, if a DF, was
also under his control - but why?
Looney Theory Time: Sammael had already chosen Shadar Logoth as his
fall-back defensive position, and Liah had orders to try and draw Rand
away from his entourage if he ever showed up there. This order would
then still be in effect later, which explains why Liah attempts to
distract Rand during his battle with Sammael.
> >> Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
> >Agreed. This, however, is not one of them.
> I am not convinced.
Which is why I put YMOV there. I tend to take what RJ says at
signings and on-line chats as canon - although there are those that
don't.
Given that Sammael was not balefired (by RJ's statement) then any
theory that requires him to be balefired is thereby flawed, and we
must seek out an answer that doesn't invoke balefire.
TK421
<macdo...@home.com> wrote:
I think we're all agreed. We agree to disagree about ever agreeing over
our disagreements. Is everyone agreed, then?
I must state for the record that Duncan J Macdonald is an incredibly
reasonable person, which (if you don't know) is an incredibly kind
compliment when you're talking about the people who frequent this
newsgroup. Normally, a typical discussion between two dissenting RASFWRJ
newsgroupies only lasts as long as three or four posts before the name
calling and the assault on the opponent's sexual organs ensues. But
despite many posts and reposts that fail to produce a consensus, he
continues to be concilliatory and understanding. I am considering
scrapping my opinion and agreeing with his simply becasue he is such a
gracious opponent. Duncan J Macdonald, I'd disagree with you anytime! :)
>As I just got done saying to TK421 (damn, but that's awkward)
Well, except for that comment.
mpfjr
On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 23:35:09 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
<macdo...@home.com> wrote:
[making room]
>> Which was one of my points below.
>
><snip my theory that Rand gets Flinn to heal his heel>
>
>> Ok, but when a person is Healed either with Saidar or Saidin the
>> person being Healed feels it. They receive some degree of pain. Also
>> immediately afterwards they feel exhausted (since most of the energy
>> comes from them). My point is that Alanna would have felt these
>> effects in close proximity and therefore would have concluded that he
>> was just Healed by someone. She did not state this and her statement
>> to Cad is so strange that it shouts that his injury was THERE and then
>> NOT. It wasn't Healed, it was Erased.
>
>As I just got done saying to TK421 (damn, but that's awkward) Alanna
>is so far away from Rand, that she can't swear to his location:
>
>"He leaps about, Traveling, but he's still in the South. Somewhere in
>Illian, I think, but at this distance, he could be in Tear for all I
>know. He's full of rage, and pain, and suspicion. There isn't any
>more, Cadsuane. There isn't!"
><TPoD, Tor hb, 12, _New Alliances_, pg 275>
Agreed. Distance could mean everything.
>
>Remember, this isn't the first time Alanna's told Cadsuane all of
>this. Cadsuane has asked her repeatedly about what she senses through
>the Bond, to the point that Alanna is feeling badgered about it, and
>repeats, sullenly, her list of things that she has felt.
>
>The Bond with Rand is not perfect, it is broken somehow, so it is
>reasonable to assume that if Alanna did not feel the Healing, it is
>because 1) she's too far away, 2) this particular Bond does not
>transmit that information, or 3) Rand is so full of rage, pain, and
>suspicion that lesser feelings like exhaustion don't get above the
>background noise.
>
I am not willing to give up my argument yet, so I'll just say that
there are several times that Alanna reports feeling injuries that Rand
is suffering. Most of the time she is weeping because of the pain of
his side wound/wounds.
>> >> Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
>> >> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
>> >> being healed by someone?
>
>See above - I'll grant that it is not conclusive, but I believe that
>there is enough doubt there to answer your question with a resounding
>"Maybe".
I agree that I am grasping at a root on a cliff's edge, but _maybe_
it'll be strong enough. We'll have to wait till book 13 to find out I
bet.
>
>> >Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
>> >felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
>> >a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
>> >erased by balefire.
>>
>> Repeat of above: She would have felt the effects on his body of a
>> healing by either Saidar or Saidin.
>
>Repeat of above: Maybe, maybe not.
Agreed.
>
>> >> The injury ceased to exist but her memory of it did not. The person
>> >> who caused his injury was therefore balefired.
>> >
>> >That is a side effect of balefire, but not exclusive to it. When
>> >someone is Healed, the injuries cease to exist, but memories of it do
>> >not.
>>
>> Repeating again: She did not Feel him being heeled. Which she would
>> have.
>
>Repeating again: Maybe, maybe not.
Agreed.
>
><snip>
>
>> >But, RJ has stated that Sammael was killed by Mashadar, not balefired.
>> >Since Liah _was_ balefired, she was not Sammael in disguise. Further,
>> >given Rand's abilities, he would have likely felt anyone in Shadar
>> >Logoth wielding balefire, either _saidin_ or _saidar_ produced. This
>> >leaves TP or _ter'angreal_ produced balefire.
>>
>> I agree that it is very very unclear and confusing. This whole thing
>> is a mess. RJ probably made a mistake and now he can't take it back.
>
>Hey, I'm disappointed that Sammael is "toast" as well. When we didn't
>see him die on-screen, I figured that he Traveled outta there when
>Rand started tossing balefire around, and was lying low and making
>nefarious plans in the background, unknown to anyone but himself, his
>minions, and the DO.
The thing I keep coming back to in my head is how Sammael was
repeatedly written as a VERY good General. He was VERY clever and
such. So I am NOT going to take RJ's statement as final. There has
got to be a catch.
>
>> But one of the theories that I have is that RJ is playing with words.
>> Just after Mashadar grabs onto Liah's leg, There is a series of
>> thoughts that Rand thinks. One of which is a descriptions of how
>> already dead she is. How once Mashadar has her, she is as dead as he
>> would have been had Fain plunged that dagger into his heart.
>> RJ could be saying that Mashadar got Sam in disguise which caused Rand
>> to balefire him which erased his heel injury. Since Mashadar got
>> him/her first, he could say that Mashadar killed him/her. This causes
>> us more confusion and speculation that if he were to say his usual
>> RAFO. Therefore he probably had it planned from the beginning to say
>> something like that during his CNN chat to throw us all off. He is
>> not exactly lying, but he is not telling the whole truth either. AS
>> kind of half-truths.
>
>I don't think so. While RJ's profession is playing with words, he has
>avoided being that third-rate about it (with the exception of Min's
>pun about _toh_ in WH). While I agree that an author of a continuing
>series should be circumspect in the amount of information given
>outside of his writings, I don't believe that RJ is purposely handing
>out red herrings during personal appearances.
Maybe/maybe not.
>More people read his
>works than read chat transcripts or newsgroups. If he's going to
>confuse us, he'll do it in writing.
Because "more people read his works than read his chat transcripts or
newsgroups" I think he'd be more willing to play with the occasional
person in line at a book signing or the small percentage who will read
his chat transcripts or even read this newsgroup. He has expressed
before (I can't remember where) that he is getting a kick out of
reading and hearing about what we think/thought of Asmodean's killer.
Now that the mystery is almost 100% figured out, we really do not have
any real mysteries left. Maybe he is trying to create one with that
whole scene? And when we did not really take the ball and run with
it, he thought he'd introduce something that would really make us
wonder. The problem is that this thread and related threads are not
very popular so I am sure I am completely wrong. Oh well.
Yep, you are correct. That info you supplied is what I needed to put
this to rest. Thanks.
>
>These are obviously different amounts of balefire. Rand uses both
>hands with Rahvin, and only one with Liah. Rahvin ceased instantly,
>Liah's shape remained for less than a heartbeat, and the Darkhounds
>became motes, seemingly struggling against the balefire before they
>vanished.
>
>I'll postulate that these are three levels of balefire power, each one
>stronger that the last, starting with the Darkhounds, then Liah, and
>finally Rahvin. Darkhound level erases a few seconds (there were
>still pawprints in the floor in Rhuidean), Liah level erases 10
>seconds or so, and Rahvin level erases 30 minutes or so.
>
>I'm open to looking at other timelines for this.
Agreed.
>
><snip Did Sammael run into Liah earlier>
>
>> exactly. But maybe she "got lost" there as part of a plan that Sam,
>> the Great General of the DO's army, devised from the beginning.
>
>This idea has merit, as we are never sure _why_ she got lost in the
>first place. The only DF Maiden that we have seen before was being
>controlled by Sammael. This makes it possible that Liah, if a DF, was
>also under his control - but why?
>
The problem with this idea is that Liah was a Maiden. She knew how to
fight with the spear and such. Rand sees her fighting some Trollocs
earlier and approached her. She seemed to be under the taint ( for
lack of a better word) of SL's evil. She claimed it as her's and
hissed at him.
If she was an BA or a Forsaken in disguise, she would not be able to
fight like that. So it Had to be really her.
This indicates that she is NOT involved with Sammael at all. She is
there completely independent of his plans.
BUT the whole place is filled with Tollocs and Fades. Therefore,
SOMEONE knew that Rand and Sammael would fight there that day. Maybe
some Dark Prophecy predicted it. Maybe during one of his scouting
trips he saw and questioned Liah and realized that she knew Rand and
used her to his advantage.
BUT Sammael seemed just as surprised as Rand that she was there when
she was tagged by Mashadar. Did she break out of his control? Did
she come there to warn Rand?
This whole thing is spinning out of control. Too many what if's and
could it be that's.
>Looney Theory Time: Sammael had already chosen Shadar Logoth as his
>fall-back defensive position, and Liah had orders to try and draw Rand
>away from his entourage if he ever showed up there. This order would
>then still be in effect later, which explains why Liah attempts to
>distract Rand during his battle with Sammael.
I was never under the impression that she tried to distract him.
Nobody knew she was there until she screamed. And then even Sammael
seemed surprised.
Of course my original theory requires that she was either Sammael or
working for him and had a +5 Red Filament Fire against dragons wand.
>
>> >> Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
>
>> >Agreed. This, however, is not one of them.
>
>> I am not convinced.
I am closer to being convinced, but not quite.
>
>Which is why I put YMOV there. I tend to take what RJ says at
>signings and on-line chats as canon - although there are those that
>don't.
>
>Given that Sammael was not balefired (by RJ's statement) then any
>theory that requires him to be balefired is thereby flawed, and we
>must seek out an answer that doesn't invoke balefire.
>
>Duncan
Yah, I am just going to wait this thing out. Maybe the next book will
clear this up or someone will ask more detailed questions at his next
Chat session.
Micheal
Duncan J Macdonald
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:57:15 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> I think we're all agreed. We agree to disagree about ever agreeing over
> our disagreements. Is everyone agreed, then?
I think I lost you on the fourth corner there, but it is so much fun
to hold such reasonable disagreements.
> I must state for the record that Duncan J Macdonald is an incredibly
> reasonable person, which (if you don't know) is an incredibly kind
> compliment when you're talking about the people who frequent this
> newsgroup.
Hmm. Obviously, my evil identical twin has been slacking off in his
duties. Won't Mother be surprised!
> Normally, a typical discussion between two dissenting RASFWRJ
> newsgroupies only lasts as long as three or four posts before the name
> calling and the assault on the opponent's sexual organs ensues.
This brings mental images of the adversaries in various states of
undress and cries of "Engarde!". Disturbing, that. (Unless it's Loy)
> But
> despite many posts and reposts that fail to produce a consensus, he
> continues to be concilliatory and understanding. I am considering
> scrapping my opinion and agreeing with his simply becasue he is such a
> gracious opponent.
Please don't. If I have been unable to sway you to my side
(Feel your hatred, Luke ... Begin your journey to the Dark side...)
by my arguments alone, then I have been remiss, and need to try
harder.
> Duncan J Macdonald, I'd disagree with you anytime! :)
Excellent! I'm looking forward to it. What to you want to tackle
next?
> >As I just got done saying to TK421 (damn, but that's awkward)
> Well, except for that comment.
Tell you what, you can call me just Duncan, and I'll just call you
"T".
Honestly, though, thanks for all the compliments. I do try to be
reasonable, and I appreciate it in those with whom I am discussing the
series, as you and mpfjr (Micheal) have been. Discussions without
rancor do lead to a deeper understanding of the series. I have a
tendency to see the other side of the question as well as my own,
which can occasionally trip up my arguments.
The name thing is just a peeve of mine - if one is willing to post to
this froup, one should also be willing to sign one's own name. There
are exceptions to this, but generally those who stay here very long at
least sign their own names. I'm not saying that I've been here that
long, just shy of two years now, but it is a sign of the maturity of
this froup as a whole that people are comfortable with using their
names.
I'm not trying to convert you, however.
Duncan J Macdonald
>
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 23:35:09 -0500, Duncan J Macdonald
> <macdo...@home.com> wrote:
>
> [making room]
>
[Alanna can't feel Rand being Healed due to distance or sensory
overload]
> I am not willing to give up my argument yet, so I'll just say that
> there are several times that Alanna reports feeling injuries that Rand
> is suffering. Most of the time she is weeping because of the pain of
> his side wound/wounds.
All of Rand's bonders have the same reaction - they are stunned that
he can even function semi-normally given the amount of pain he's
under. I'll have to go back and look at each of those scenes to see
what their relative locations were. I'm guessing now that the more
detailed reports that Alanna gives happen when she is in closer
proximity.
Likely we'll never know enough specifics about the Bond to tell for
sure.
<snip>
> I agree that I am grasping at a root on a cliff's edge, but _maybe_
> it'll be strong enough. We'll have to wait till book 13 to find out I
> bet.
May your root be strong and hardy. We may have to wait indefinitely.
<snip some agreements to disagree>
[Why Oh Why did Sammael Die?]
> >Hey, I'm disappointed that Sammael is "toast" as well. When we didn't
> >see him die on-screen, I figured that he Traveled outta there when
> >Rand started tossing balefire around, and was lying low and making
> >nefarious plans in the background, unknown to anyone but himself, his
> >minions, and the DO.
> The thing I keep coming back to in my head is how Sammael was
> repeatedly written as a VERY good General. He was VERY clever and
> such. So I am NOT going to take RJ's statement as final. There has
> got to be a catch.
One possible catch is re-embodiment. We've seen Aginor, Balthamel,
Ishamael, and Lanfear brought back. Moridin plays all sides of the
game, so my latest belief is that Sammael has been reincarnated, mind-
trapped, and set to the task of creating the defenses around Shayol
Ghul. I agree that Sammael is too good a general, especially in
defense, for the DO to waste.
<snip>
[does RJ purposely sows confusion at signings?]
> Because "more people read his works than read his chat transcripts or
> newsgroups" I think he'd be more willing to play with the occasional
> person in line at a book signing or the small percentage who will read
> his chat transcripts or even read this newsgroup. He has expressed
> before (I can't remember where) that he is getting a kick out of
> reading and hearing about what we think/thought of Asmodean's killer.
> Now that the mystery is almost 100% figured out, we really do not have
> any real mysteries left. Maybe he is trying to create one with that
> whole scene? And when we did not really take the ball and run with
> it, he thought he'd introduce something that would really make us
> wonder.
I certainly hope you are wrong about this. The temptation would be
there, of course, but I hope RJ is above that.
> The problem is that this thread and related threads are not
> very popular so I am sure I am completely wrong. Oh well.
Remember, the amount of replies that a post gets is not necessarily an
indication of its popularity - it's the quality of the replies.
<snip quotes on balefire usage indicating differing stages of
destruction>
> Yep, you are correct. That info you supplied is what I needed to put
> this to rest. Thanks.
You're welcome.
[on to Liah in Shadar Logoth]
> ><snip Did Sammael run into Liah earlier>
<snip: Is Liah a DF, and under Sammael's control>
> The problem with this idea is that Liah was a Maiden. She knew how to
> fight with the spear and such. Rand sees her fighting some Trollocs
> earlier and approached her. She seemed to be under the taint ( for
> lack of a better word) of SL's evil. She claimed it as her's and
> hissed at him.
Which makes me wonder ...
Padan Fain supposedly allowed Mordeth to leave the city back in
TEotW by being the vessel which Mordeth's "soul" could take over.
Moiraine gave some very specific warnings about that, and listed the
dire consequences if the Evil That Is Shadar Logoth ever escaped.
These consequences haven't occurred. Since Fain had already been
twisted by the DO/Ishamael, Mordeth's assumption of control was
flawed. What if part of the "spirit" of Mordeth got left behind, and
infused Liah? She is, after all, the only person we've seen who has
survived an extended stay there. This makes it logical that she would
consider Shadar Logoth as hers.
> If she was an BA or a Forsaken in disguise, she would not be able to
> fight like that. So it Had to be really her.
Agreed.
> This indicates that she is NOT involved with Sammael at all. She is
> there completely independent of his plans.
Not so fast. She could still be a DF, and under Sammael's orders.
I'm beginning to lean toward her being a DF, but not one of Sammael's.
I'll have to think on that.
> BUT the whole place is filled with Tollocs and Fades. Therefore,
> SOMEONE knew that Rand and Sammael would fight there that day. Maybe
> some Dark Prophecy predicted it.
I like that. We have seen far too few of the Dark Prophecies. Just
about every social group that we've seen has had Prophecies. Or, for
that matter, there may be some obscure line in the Karaethon Cycle
that foretold this event.
Or Sammael opened up a gateway to the Blight and filled the city with
them before he went back to Illian to lead Rand into a trap where Rand
would have to fight Mashadar, Trollocs, Fades, and Sammael.
Or, The Wanderer (aka Moridin) brought them in to try to distract
Sammael.
> Maybe during one of his scouting
> trips he saw and questioned Liah and realized that she knew Rand and
> used her to his advantage.
A possibility.
> BUT Sammael seemed just as surprised as Rand that she was there when
> she was tagged by Mashadar. Did she break out of his control? Did
> she come there to warn Rand?
>
> This whole thing is spinning out of control. Too many what if's and
> could it be that's.
That's part of the joy of these discussions. If everything were
totally cut and dried, it wouldn't be fantasy, or half as much fun.
<snip Looney theory that Liah was there to distract Rand>
> I was never under the impression that she tried to distract him.
> Nobody knew she was there until she screamed. And then even Sammael
> seemed surprised.
I _said_ it was looney. <g>
> Of course my original theory requires that she was either Sammael or
> working for him and had a +5 Red Filament Fire against dragons wand.
> >
> >> >> Sometimes the most complicated answer is the correct one.
> >
> >> >Agreed. This, however, is not one of them.
> >
> >> I am not convinced.
>
> I am closer to being convinced, but not quite.
A sure sign that there are too many levels of replies in a post is
when one responds to one's own comment.
<snip>
> Yah, I am just going to wait this thing out. Maybe the next book will
> clear this up or someone will ask more detailed questions at his next
> Chat session.
Roger, wait, out. [1]
Duncan
[1] Navaleese for "I agree, I'll wait."
Dylan Verheul
wrote:
>Now fast forward to Shadar Logoth. Rand sees Sammael waiting for him in
>the shadows near the Waygate. Mashadar begins to move toward him. Rand
>hears Liah scream and sees Sammael look up at her. Rand balefires her,
>then looks down to see nothing but Mashadar where Sammael was, so it must
>have killed him. RJ confirmed that Mashadar killed Sammael.
>
>But this is an unsatisfactory result because it does not account for the
>disappearing would, or "Healed heel" as I like to call it. That would
>indicate, as we used to think, that balefire was used to kill Sammael,
>thereby erasing Rand's injury and seamlessly accounting for what Alanna
>sensed through the Bond.
>
>So here is the question that we must find an answer to: If Sammael was
>killed by Mashadar and not by balefire, what happened to Rand's foot
>injury?
>
>Despite what RJ says, the evidence screams "balefire." How else could that
>would disappear? But the only person in the scene who was balefired was
>Liah. We know a man injured Rand. We know Sammael died from Mashadar. We
>know Liah was balefired. Doesn't this seem to indicate that Liah is not
>who she seems to be? I know it's a VERY unlikely conclusion, but I don't
>see where else to go. Any suggestions?
I have read (soething like) this before, but brief recap:
Place: Shadar Logoth
Players: Rand, Liah, Sammael, Mashadar
Mashadar is after Liah first , then Sammael.
Sammael hurts Rand's foot.
Rand balefires Liah. This rewrites the scene.
Place: Shadar Logoth
Players: Rand, Sammael, Mashadar
Mashadar is after Sammael.
Mashadar gets Sammael before he can do anything to Rand.
Rand sees Mashadar all over Sammael.
Sammael is toast (tm).
D
--
Life would be much easier if I had the source code.
Duncan J Macdonald
ne...@dyve.net says...
<snip all>
> I have read (soething like) this before, but brief recap:
>
> Place: Shadar Logoth
> Players: Rand, Liah, Sammael, Mashadar
>
> Mashadar is after Liah first , then Sammael.
> Sammael hurts Rand's foot.
> Rand balefires Liah. This rewrites the scene.
>
>
> Place: Shadar Logoth
> Players: Rand, Sammael, Mashadar
>
> Mashadar is after Sammael.
> Mashadar gets Sammael before he can do anything to Rand.
> Rand sees Mashadar all over Sammael.
> Sammael is toast (tm).
>
You've got this a little out of order - try the following:
Place: Royal Palace, Illian
Players: Rand, Sammael, Assorted Asha'man and Others
Sammael hurts Rand's foot.
Sammael Travels to Shadar Logoth.
Rand follows
Place: Shadar Logoth
Players: Rand, Liah, Sammael, Mashadar, Moridin
Sammael and Rand play cat-and-mouse.
Rand meets Liah (first time).
Wanderer saves Rand.
Mashadar is after Liah and Sammael simultaneously.
Rand balefires Liah. This rewrites a portion of the scene.
Place: Shadar Logoth
Players: Rand, Sammael, Mashadar
Mashadar gets Sammael before he can do anything to Rand.
Rand sees Mashadar all over where Sammael was standing.
Rand's foot is still injured.
Place: On-line Chat, Years Later
Players: RJ and Others
Sammael is toast (tm).
Duncan
Dylan Verheul
<macdo...@home.com> wrote:
8< snip my version >8
>You've got this a little out of order - try the following:
8< snip your version, presumably more accurate >8
Time for a reread I guess ...
Jason Short
(Before I begin, let me say that Balefile is a can of worms that is not
likely to fit any sort of logical system without paradoxes cropping up
left and right.)
This is an interesting theory, and I think it's highly likely. It
brings up more questions than answers, though.
I do have some reservations because we (I, at least) don't know the
extent to which balefire changes the past. We know the direct actions
of the person balefired are removed, while memories remain. Do actions
of others indirectly based upon those actions remain? Moghedian's
attack on Nyneave leads us to believe that they do not. In that
situation, if I read it correctly, events in the past were changed by
the balefire (i.e. the boat began sinking however long before Moghedian
actually bf'd it) but people's actions in the past were not changed by
those different events (i.e. Nyneave suddenly found herself far
underwater rather than having had a chance at escaping the sinking
boat). I will work off of these assumptions, although similarly tangled
results would be achieved by balefire even if it worked differently.
Furthermore, I will assume that Mashadar's actions are affected like the
sinking boat's rather than like Nyneave's - which may be a bad
assumption. (Already the paradox becomes apparent even as I rehash old
ideas.)
When Rand balefired Liah, her thread was plucked from the pattern at
some time previous to the actual balefiring. If this were just a few
seconds previously, then the theory says that Mashadar would have spent
that time going after Sammael rather than Liah. Thus when Rand turns to
look back, he sees that Sammael is toast (tm).
This brings up a question: although Sammael was killed by Mashadar, he
had *part* of the effect of being killed by balefire. Namely, he was
killed before the balefire was actually shot, and thus (from some point
of view) the actual point of his death is fuzzy. Would this prevent the
Dark One from catching his soul for a possible reincarnation? I don't
believe we have enough information to answer this question, but it would
certainly put a spin on RJ's comment of Mashadar killing Sammael.
Suppose, on the other hand, that Rand had used stronger balefire on Liah
so that she was removed from the pattern a longer time before. In this
case, her thread would have been plucked from the pattern before Rand
first saw her and before Rand/Moridin double-balefired. Under some
conditions, this could perhaps have caused the double-balefire never to
have happened - the effects of which I cannot begin to guess. It could
also have caused Sammael to have been killed by Mashadar long before, so
that all of the lightning he shot at Rand never took place. Note that
this does not explain why Rand or Moridin would not have been killed by
Mashadar in the same way.
Now suppose that Rand used even stronger balefire so that Liah had died
hours earlier in the day. (I am not qualified to say if he did or even
could have done this; I don't have the source handy right now.)
Presumably during the time he was absent from Illian Sammael was setting
up his trap in Shadar Logoth. Now, it is possible that Sammael was
killed by Mashadar earlier in the day, thus negating his entire battle
with Rand including the possibly-disappearing foot wound.
I don't actually believe this to be the case. I believe Flinn healed
Rand, and Alanna was just trying to deceive Cadsuane with her "I don't
think a sister healed him" comment. My point is that when balefire is
used, unpredictable results may follow - and in this case, we have not
just one use of balefire but three. Trying to determine what actually
happened, and how the balefires changed the course of events, is
probably a lost cause.
All in all, I don't think it will be difficult for RJ to get out of this
one.
jason short
Shane
20001215162502.09052.00002342@nso
-ck.aol.com>,
The theory, as I understand it, holds that
Sammael was Liah and what Rand saw as
Sammael was just an illusion. I don't think
this is the case, but it's a possibility I've
seen mentioned.
Daniel Rouk
> > >> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
> > >> being healed by someone?
>
> See above - I'll grant that it is not conclusive, but I believe that
> there is enough doubt there to answer your question with a resounding
> "Maybe".
Alanna does not say she did not feel him being healed. She might very well
have felt him being healed, but since Flinn's method of healing is so
different from Aes Sedai, that made her think that it was not a sister who
had healed him.
> > >Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
> > >felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
> > >a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
> > >erased by balefire.
> >
> > Repeat of above: She would have felt the effects on his body of a
> > healing by either Saidar or Saidin.
Maybe she did feel the effects, but she might also have expected to feel the
effects of saidar directly as well, and since those were absent (women can't
feel saidin) that prompted what she said about no sister healing him too.
Isn't this conversation somewhat moot? We KNOW that Sammuel wasn't
balefired, so why keep arguing that it must have happened. If Alanna didn't
think a sister healed him, and we know its not balefire, then we know it
must have been an Asha'man. No other logical choice exists except for an
error on the part of Jordan.
mpfjr
>
>Sammael and Rand play cat-and-mouse.
>Rand meets Liah (first time).
>Wanderer saves Rand.
>Mashadar is after Liah and Sammael simultaneously.
>Rand balefires Liah. This rewrites a portion of the scene.
>
>Place: Shadar Logoth
>Players: Rand, Sammael, Mashadar
>
>Mashadar gets Sammael before he can do anything to Rand.
>Rand sees Mashadar all over where Sammael was standing.
>Rand's foot is still injured.
>
? Was it? It was never mentioned if it was still hurt at this point.
Thus I can't shut up on this issue. :)
>Place: On-line Chat, Years Later
>Players: RJ and Others
>
>Sammael is toast (tm).
>
>
>
>Duncan
Mike
Shane
20001215162502.09052.00002342@nso
-ck.aol.com>,
disguised as Liah and the Sammael that Rand
saw was just an illusion of inverted weaves.
I don't necessarily support this theory, in
fact I'm still doubtful of it, but I think it has
enough merit to give it a look. f
By the way, if this posts twice, I apologize.
Trouble with Deja this morning.
Doug Stanley
TK421 <TK...@tworivers.andor.wot> wrote:
> So here is the question that we must find an answer to: If Sammael
was
> killed by Mashadar and not by balefire, what happened to Rand's foot
> injury?
>
> Despite what RJ says, the evidence screams "balefire." How else
could that
> would disappear? But the only person in the scene who was balefired
was
> Liah. We know a man injured Rand. We know Sammael died from
Mashadar. We
> know Liah was balefired. Doesn't this seem to indicate that Liah is
not
> who she seems to be? I know it's a VERY unlikely conclusion, but I
don't
> see where else to go. Any suggestions?
Okay, here's a few more semi-looney theories:
1. Maybe Mashadar is like balefire itself and causes recent actions
performed by the person consumed to be undone.
2. Since Sammael was apparantly consumed by Mashadar, it may be that
balefiring Mashadar is very much like balefiring Sammael directly since
it now contains Sammael in it.
3. Perhaps Rand and Moridin's crossed balefire streams had some very
weird temporal effects.
Duncan J Macdonald
says...
Daniel, please keep the attributions in your posts. I recognized
this one, so I'm putting who said what back in.
> > > >> = mpfjr
> > > = mpfjr
> > > > = Duncan
> > = Duncan
> > > >> Why would Alanna make a point of saying "he was injured,then not, but
> > > >> I don't think a Sister Healed him". Would she not have felt Rand
> > > >> being healed by someone?
> >
> > See above - I'll grant that it is not conclusive, but I believe that
> > there is enough doubt there to answer your question with a resounding
> > "Maybe".
>
> Alanna does not say she did not feel him being healed. She might very well
> have felt him being healed, but since Flinn's method of healing is so
> different from Aes Sedai, that made her think that it was not a sister who
> had healed him.
I agree. Alanna has been badgered by Cadsuane to the point that she
isn't volunteering information. Or, she doesn't know.
> > > >Consistent with this statement, we can assume that Alanna _would_ have
> > > >felt a Sister perform the healing. That she didn't points directly to
> > > >a non-Sister. An Asha'man. Or, as you posit, to the wounding being
> > > >erased by balefire.
> > >
> > > Repeat of above: She would have felt the effects on his body of a
> > > healing by either Saidar or Saidin.
>
> Maybe she did feel the effects, but she might also have expected to feel the
> effects of saidar directly as well, and since those were absent (women can't
> feel saidin) that prompted what she said about no sister healing him too.
Agree. Alanna may have felt the Healing, but _not_ felt _saidar_,
and just expressed it as "I don't think a Sister Healed him."
> Isn't this conversation somewhat moot? We KNOW that Sammuel wasn't
> balefired, so why keep arguing that it must have happened. If Alanna didn't
> think a sister healed him, and we know its not balefire, then we know it
> must have been an Asha'man. No other logical choice exists except for an
> error on the part of Jordan.
Not really. What we are discussing is the _why_ of the answer. We
are looking for a deeper understanding of the reasons. By using this
example, it is possible to uncover some of the underlying rules of
RJ's universe.
There is another choice, one without much credence, but Rand could
have Healed himself. Since to date no channeler has been able to
affect themselves this way, that would be a major plot twist.
Dylan Verheul
wrote:
>Dylan Verheul wrote:
8< snip >8
>This is an interesting theory, and I think it's highly likely. It
>brings up more questions than answers, though.
FAQ it then :-)