Herid Fel's Discovery
ThumBoy666
Herid Fel was killed by a gholam at the end of LoC. we assume he found
something vital to Rand, or at least it was vital in Fel's mind. I'm sure
everyone else has heard this thought, but I want to know EXACTLY what
everyone thinks about the events surrounding Fel's death. did Fel learn
that breaking the seals would release the taint on saidin? Most
importantly, who killd him? Sorry, that should be: who had him killed?
the theory I am about to propose, unfortunately, promotes the
Taim=Demandered point. For the sake of argument, I will continue.
[Demandred or Taim: The New Forsaken] doesn't want the Asha'man to succeed
for Rand. Those that turn to the Dark can have the Taint filtered out by
the DO. The Taint thus limits Rand and his male minions. Taim, being the
near-omnicient guy he is, knows that Fel is close to discovering the nature
of the Seal/Taint relationship. Since he happens to have just found a
stasis box (Note: the Watcher had a callbox, most likely from a stasis box
he found. What this implies, I do not know), he gets his new pet Gholam to
take care of that threat to his plans.
I'm sure you guys have brought this up before, and I do apologize, so
don't send responses saying only "yes, we've discussed this before," and
just ignore this if it bugs you. For those of you with an open mind and an
open hand, please tell me what you think of this idea
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"But her hair smells like yellow Froot Loops!"
"I eat Froot Loops for breakfast."
"His name is God"
-Sandy
rqkl...@hia.net
In article <19971116063...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
thumb...@aol.com (ThumBoy666) wrote:
>
> Herid Fel was killed by a gholam at the end of LoC. we assume he found
> something vital to Rand, or at least it was vital in Fel's mind. I'm sure
> everyone else has heard this thought, but I want to know EXACTLY what
> everyone thinks about the events surrounding Fel's death. did Fel learn
> that breaking the seals would release the taint on saidin?
Fel learned that (from his last note to Rand) "Belief and order
give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build." Coupled
with other information such as Egwene's dreams, a likely interpretation
of this is that Rand must break the remaining three seals, probably at
exactly the right time and place, before the DO's prison can be
resealed. Needless to say, the DO would prefer that this information
remain hidden.
> Most
> importantly, who killd him? Sorry, that should be: who had him killed?
> the theory I am about to propose, unfortunately, promotes the
> Taim=Demandered point. For the sake of argument, I will continue.
>
> [Demandred or Taim: The New Forsaken] doesn't want the Asha'man to succeed
> for Rand. Those that turn to the Dark can have the Taint filtered out by
> the DO. The Taint thus limits Rand and his male minions. Taim, being the
> near-omnicient guy he is, knows that Fel is close to discovering the nature
> of the Seal/Taint relationship. Since he happens to have just found a
> stasis box (Note: the Watcher had a callbox, most likely from a stasis box
> he found. What this implies, I do not know), he gets his new pet Gholam to
> take care of that threat to his plans.
I'm not clear on why you think Taim/Demandred has found a
stasis box.
Sammael was the one with the callbox. He's also the one we
know with near certainty has control of a Gholam. There's
no evidence that any other five Gholam have been found, so the
working premise is that Sammael had Fel killed. This
surely was on the DO's direct orders. I don't think the
Forsaken would mess with something as critical as the seals
without explicit instructions from the DO to do so.
Bob Kluttz
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Timberwolf
>> Herid Fel was killed by a gholam at the end of LoC. we assume he found
>> something vital to Rand, or at least it was vital in Fel's mind. I'm
sure
>> everyone else has heard this thought, but I want to know EXACTLY what
>> everyone thinks about the events surrounding Fel's death. did Fel learn
>> that breaking the seals would release the taint on saidin?
>
>Fel learned that (from his last note to Rand) "Belief and order
>give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build." Coupled
>with other information such as Egwene's dreams, a likely interpretation
>of this is that Rand must break the remaining three seals, probably at
>exactly the right time and place, before the DO's prison can be
>resealed. Needless to say, the DO would prefer that this information
>remain hidden.
I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
what they were created for. IMO RJ just wanted to introduce his latest
newest and coolest baddie to the mix... though I'd say it's likely that the
gholam had been active before that, in killing Janya and the other BA tart.
-Timberwolf
Dodzie Sogah
Timberwolf wrote:
> I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
> gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> what they were created for. IMO RJ just wanted to introduce his latest
> newest and coolest baddie to the mix... though I'd say it's likely that the
> gholam had been active before that, in killing Janya and the other BA tart.
>
>
Using a gholam also gives us a pretty big clue as to which Forsaken ordered
Fel's death, since there really aren't all that many of them just lying around.
Dodzie
Michael Boland
rqkl...@hia.net writes:
[Snip]
>Fel learned that (from his last note to Rand) "Belief and order
>give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build."
Do you think that this order is need to counter ther chaos currently been
spread around by the Forsaken and, perhaps, by Rand, albeit unwittingly?
Is this some indication of the DO's masterplan-'Let the Lord of Chaos rule'?
--
Sean Boland.
morr...@maths.tcd.ie
Dave Rothgery
dmcn...@middlebury.edu wrote in message <347090...@middlebury.edu>...
>Dodzie Sogah wrote:
>
>> Using a gholam also gives us a pretty big clue as to which Forsaken
ordered
>> Fel's death, since there really aren't all that many of them just lying
around.
>
>Not to mention the psychological message it would send. A man torn limb
>from limb is quite gory and puts a fairly large exclamation point on the
>murder. It's a display of power and an exhibition of maliciousness.
>
>Consider what goes through Rand's head. He doesn't know of a
>Shadowspawn capable of ripping a man limb from limb. A Trolloc could
>perhaps be strong enough, but could not enter Fel's study without being
>noticed. Trolloc's are also too stupid to be hitmen. He now has to
>fear the unknown (not that he doesn't already, to be sure).
>
A gray man could have avoided notice, and they are 'hitmen' by definition.
Forsaken certainly have access to them. Yet a gholam was used anyway. I'm
not sure what this implies.
--
Dave Rothgery WPI Computer Science '98
dave...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~daveroth/
DWalker800
I think it is almost certain that Herid Fel's death was ordered by Demandred.
In the prologue to LoC when Demandred goes to SG, the DO says to him "THEN
LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE". Admittedly this happened
well before Ran'd conversation with Fel, but I still think that this is the
most likely explanation.
Incidentally I like the thought that breaking the seals would release the
taint, although I think it unlikely. Has this been floating about here long?
t1s...@sallie.wellesley.edu
someone wrote:
> > I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
> > gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> > what they were created for.
> I think a gholam's been active since book 2. Listen to how Barthanes
> was killed:
>
> "If you mean Barthanes, you're too late. Everybody's talking about it
> already. He is dead. His servants found him this morning, torn to
> pieces in his bedchamber. The only way they knew it was him was his
> head stuck on a spike over the fire place."
> tGH 34 The Wheel Weaves p488 pb
>
Then again, they were both killed in Barthanes Palace. Maybe the
place is haunted by a gholam. (yes, I know,that is a trifle facetious.
Still,it is an odd coincidence.)
Trinity
Kay-Arne Hansen wrote:
> Say, the supposed Gholam in Cairhien, and Sammaels Gholam in Ebou Dar,
> they are not the same, are they??? I thought Sammael found that stasis
> box way after tGH...
>
True, and the Gholam in Cairhien didn't have much time to get to Ebou
Dar. That would mean...There's a Forsaken in Cairhein and has been
since tGH!!!(da da da dum)
--
Trinity
Tune in tomorrow, same Bat Time, same Bat Station.
Timberwolf
>> I like this theory. The evidence for who has the Gholam points to
>> Sammael, who battled Rand outside Cairehien, ended up with the loot
>> from Ebou Dar and has access to a stasis box. It's possible, being the
>> kind of guy he is, that he'd use the Gholam instead of a grey man just
>> to show everybody he's got one. This may also be why he uses the
>> bleeding messenger and Melindhra. Which seems to indicate that the
>> grey man utilizations were done by the other FS.
>
>
>Say, the supposed Gholam in Cairhien, and Sammaels Gholam in Ebou Dar,
>they are not the same, are they??? I thought Sammael found that stasis
>box way after tGH...
That makes sense. We know there were originally six. There's no reason
to think that more than one have been recovered. Does Sammael have any
reason to kill Barthanes? He was under Ishamael's command at the time, it
seemed. As for the BA it would seem likely that Mesaana or Ishamael would be
ordering any execution, not Sammael who had little to do with those specific
BA.
-Timberwolf
>
>
>
>---
>
>KAH
rqkl...@hia.net
In article <3472C3...@pacbell.net>,
thl...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
> > > I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value
asset like a
> > > gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> > > what they were created for.
> > I think a gholam's been active since book 2. Listen to how Barthanes
> > was killed:
> > [snip quote]
> I like this theory. The evidence for who has the Gholam points to
> Sammael, who battled Rand outside Cairehien, ended up with the loot
> from Ebou Dar and has access to a stasis box. It's possible, being the
> kind of guy he is, that he'd use the Gholam instead of a grey man just
> to show everybody he's got one. This may also be why he uses the
> bleeding messenger and Melindhra. Which seems to indicate that the
> grey man utilizations were done by the other FS.
In the Stone Rand asks Lanfear if she sent the Gray Man. She replies
that she doesn't use them. Assuming she wasn't lying, this implies that
the Forsaken have preferred MO's. Maybe Sammael just doesn't like
using Gray Men.
I like to think RJ uses this as a tool to provide clues as to which
Forsaken is up to what. If it's a Gholam is Sammael. If it's a
darkhound it's likely Sammael. If it's a Gray Man, it's someone other
than Sammael or Lanfear.
I agree with Timberwolf that the murder of the two BA in the Stone was
probably Gholam work. This adds to the evidence of the sigil on the
coach that Sammael not only sent the Trollocs but was also involved
with the Black Ajah at the Stone of Tear.
Kay-Arne Hansen
thl...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
> > > I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
> > > gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> > > what they were created for.
> > I think a gholam's been active since book 2. Listen to how Barthanes
> > was killed:
> >
> > already. He is dead. His servants found him this morning, torn to
> > pieces in his bedchamber. The only way they knew it was him was his
> > head stuck on a spike over the fire place."
> > tGH 34 The Wheel Weaves p488 pb
> >
>
> Sammael, who battled Rand outside Cairehien, ended up with the loot
> from Ebou Dar and has access to a stasis box. It's possible, being the
> kind of guy he is, that he'd use the Gholam instead of a grey man just
> to show everybody he's got one. This may also be why he uses the
> bleeding messenger and Melindhra. Which seems to indicate that the
> grey man utilizations were done by the other FS.
Say, the supposed Gholam in Cairhien, and Sammaels Gholam in Ebou Dar,
they are not the same, are they??? I thought Sammael found that stasis
box way after tGH...
---
KAH
Adam Nevraumont
In article <19971118005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
DWalker800 <dwalk...@aol.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
>Incidentally I like the thought that breaking the seals would release the
> taint, although I think it unlikely. Has this been floating about here long?
ObAaron: Yes
--
Adam Frank Nevraumont
Adam.Ne...@zeno10.math.uwaterloo.ca
http://noether.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/
#include "http://noether.math.uwaterloo.ca/%7Eafnevrau/spam-disclaimer.txt"
Adam Nevraumont
In article <64qrm2$i5i$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU>,
Possibilities:
Ran out of gray men?
Found a new toy, wanted to try it out to see if it still worked?
Was afraid that Rand might stop a gray man, and considered it very important?
Didn't have any gray men on hand, only had a gholam, and the situation was
pretty urgent?
Felt like intimidating the good guys?
Gholams cause more pain than gray men, and it wasn't doing anything else at
the time, so why not send it?
Jeremiah Penery
rqkl...@hia.net wrote:
> I agree with Timberwolf that the murder of the two BA in the Stone was
> probably Gholam work. This adds to the evidence of the sigil on the
> coach that Sammael not only sent the Trollocs but was also involved
> with the Black Ajah at the Stone of Tear.
Which trollocs do you refer to, the ones that attacked the "good" guys,
or the ones that "rescued" them from the other trollocs. One set of
trollocs were Be'lal's(IIRC?), and the ones sent to "rescue" Rand and
co. from them were sent by Semirhage. We find this out in LOC (or TFOH,
I'm not sure which), when Graendal is talking to other Forsaken.
God, I really need to look some of these things up...
-Flob
thl...@pacbell.net
> > I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
> > gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> > what they were created for.
> I think a gholam's been active since book 2. Listen to how Barthanes
> was killed:
>
> "If you mean Barthanes, you're too late. Everybody's talking about it
> already. He is dead. His servants found him this morning, torn to
> pieces in his bedchamber. The only way they knew it was him was his
> head stuck on a spike over the fire place."
> tGH 34 The Wheel Weaves p488 pb
>
I like this theory. The evidence for who has the Gholam points to
Sammael, who battled Rand outside Cairehien, ended up with the loot
from Ebou Dar and has access to a stasis box. It's possible, being the
kind of guy he is, that he'd use the Gholam instead of a grey man just
to show everybody he's got one. This may also be why he uses the
bleeding messenger and Melindhra. Which seems to indicate that the
grey man utilizations were done by the other FS.
Thlayli
Timberwolf
>>>> Fel's death, since there really aren't all that many of them just lying
>>around.
>>>
>>>Shadowspawn capable of ripping a man limb from limb. A Trolloc could
>>>perhaps be strong enough, but could not enter Fel's study without being
>>>noticed. Trolloc's are also too stupid to be hitmen. He now has to
>>>fear the unknown (not that he doesn't already, to be sure).
>>>
>>A gray man could have avoided notice, and they are 'hitmen' by definition.
>>Forsaken certainly have access to them. Yet a gholam was used anyway.
I'm
>
>Gholams cause more pain than gray men, and it wasn't doing anything else at
>the time, so why not send it?
>--
One would think a Forsaken would always have some use for a gholam.
Wasting an old guy who doesn't even know he's in danger dousn't sound like
an efficient use of a gholam to me. And I would think now that grisly
messages like that are only going to get Rand madder.
-Timberwolf, wondering... is there such a word as "madder"?
Mark Loy
In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
<kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
> > <snip>> Wasting an old guy who doesn't even know he's in danger
> dousn't sound like
> > an efficient use of a gholam to me.<snip>>
> > -Timberwolf, wondering... is there such a word as "madder"?
> >
>
> A Gholam is employed for 3 reasons: 1) He (meaning Sammeal) had one. 2)
> The damn Castle grounds are full of people who could channel. 3) He had
> to be sure Herid Fel was dead. In this age, only Matt has stood against.
> As far as everyone else is concerned, including the Forsaken, they are damn
> near unstoppable.
Just wanted to point out something, here.
Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is probably
the Dark Power thereby making them perfect weapons against the Light. Sam
must know this, as well, as without a channeler knowing how to kill one of
these critters, they'd be vulnerable to them themselves.
Think about it...how would Sam get the thing to do his bidding if there
weren't some way for Sam to enforce his will on it? If they were
completely immune to _all_ forms of channeling, _they'd_ be the one
ordering forsaken around.
The forsaken would be doing _their_ bidding.
ML
Trinity
Timberwolf wrote:
> One would think a Forsaken would always have some use for a gholam.
> Wasting an old guy who doesn't even know he's in danger dousn't sound like
> an efficient use of a gholam to me. And I would think now that grisly
> messages like that are only going to get Rand madder.
Think about all those old Mob movies. You want to annoy your enemy, you
kill someone close to him, family, friend, close associate, and you
make it as bloody as possible, just to let him know, no ones safe.
Plus there's the theory that the Gholam was in Barthanes' castle (Look
up how he died and you'll see similarities with Fel). When you have a
weapon ready in one place there's no need to bring in another.
--
Trinity
Michael Boland
rqkl...@hia.net writes:
>In article <3472C3...@pacbell.net>,
> thl...@pacbell.net wrote:
>>
>In the Stone Rand asks Lanfear if she sent the Gray Man. She replies
>that she doesn't use them. Assuming she wasn't lying, this implies that
>the Forsaken have preferred MO's. Maybe Sammael just doesn't like
>using Gray Men.
>I like to think RJ uses this as a tool to provide clues as to which
>Forsaken is up to what. If it's a Gholam is Sammael. If it's a
>darkhound it's likely Sammael. If it's a Gray Man, it's someone other
>than Sammael or Lanfear.
>I agree with Timberwolf that the murder of the two BA in the Stone was
>probably Gholam work. This adds to the evidence of the sigil on the
>coach that Sammael not only sent the Trollocs but was also involved
>with the Black Ajah at the Stone of Tear.
If Samuel did send this gholam, why didn't he sent it after Rand. After
all, his intention for the attack was to kill Rand and capture Callandor
(he said this somewhere. Sorry, but I don't have the books with me).
Rand would have been easy meet for the gholam, who would have been immune
to Rands saidin.
This also makes me think, isn't it convienent that the DO said to 'Let the
Lord of Chaos rule' (assuming Rand is the LoC), convient for RJ. This way,
he can introduce gholam without his legions of fans shouting 'Why dosn't
Sammuel or the other forsaken use a gholam to kill Rand? It'd be _so_ easy!'
Just a though.
--
Sean Boland.
morr...@maths.tcd.ie
rqkl...@hia.net
In article <64tkm5$k...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
fl...@lords.com wrote:
>
> rqkl...@hia.net wrote:
>
> > I agree with Timberwolf that the murder of the two BA in the Stone was
> > probably Gholam work. This adds to the evidence of the sigil on the
> > coach that Sammael not only sent the Trollocs but was also involved
> > with the Black Ajah at the Stone of Tear.
>
> or the ones that "rescued" them from the other trollocs. One set of
> trollocs were Be'lal's(IIRC?), and the ones sent to "rescue" Rand and
> co. from them were sent by Semirhage. We find this out in LOC (or TFOH,
> I'm not sure which), when Graendal is talking to other Forsaken.
>
> God, I really need to look some of these things up...
Sorry, I meant the "attack" Trollocs. IIRC this was from one of the two
conversations between Sammael and Graendal in LOC. As you noted,
the "rescue" Trollocs were sent by Semirhage.
rqkl...@hia.net
In article <64vh9e$1...@graves.maths.tcd.ie>,
morr...@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Boland) wrote:
>
> If Samuel did send this gholam, why didn't he sent it after Rand. After
> all, his intention for the attack was to kill Rand and capture Callandor
> (he said this somewhere. Sorry, but I don't have the books with me).
LOC 6 Threads Woven of Shadow, hc 133.
> Rand would have been easy meet for the gholam, who would have been
> immune to Rands saidin.
>
> This also makes me think, isn't it convienent that the DO said to 'Let the
> Lord of Chaos rule' (assuming Rand is the LoC), convient for RJ. This way,
> he can introduce gholam without his legions of fans shouting 'Why dosn't
> Sammuel or the other forsaken use a gholam to kill Rand? It'd be _so_ easy!'
>
Why didn't Sammael send the Gholam after Rand? Good question, and
I don't have a good answer. The best I can do is speculate that
Sammael prefers overt military action. He uses covert tactics such
as the Gholam only for specific special missions. Also, Trollocs are
cheap. He wouldn't risk a valuable asset such as a Gholam unless
the odds of success were near certain which is never the case when
a ta'veren is involved.
Kravell Luther
Timberwolf wrote:
> >> Herid Fel was killed by a gholam at the end of LoC. we assume he found
> >> something vital to Rand, or at least it was vital in Fel's mind. I'm
> sure
> >> everyone else has heard this thought, but I want to know EXACTLY what
> >> everyone thinks about the events surrounding Fel's death. did Fel learn
> >> that breaking the seals would release the taint on saidin?
> >
> >Fel learned that (from his last note to Rand) "Belief and order
> >give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build." Coupled
> >with other information such as Egwene's dreams, a likely interpretation
> >of this is that Rand must break the remaining three seals, probably at
> >exactly the right time and place, before the DO's prison can be
> >resealed. Needless to say, the DO would prefer that this information
> >remain hidden.
>
> I'm just wondering for a moment, why was such a high value asset like a
> gholam used against Herid Fel? The mission called for Grey Men, it's exactly
> what they were created for. IMO RJ just wanted to introduce his latest
> newest and coolest baddie to the mix... though I'd say it's likely that the
> gholam had been active before that, in killing Janya and the other BA tart.
>
> -Timberwolf
I believe that Herid Fel was killed on the orders of Demandred, or rather on
the DO's orders through Demandred.
The DO said to Demandred in the very beginning of LoC
"Then listen and hear who will die and who live." and in the end of LoC in the
chapter "The answer" when Fel is killed (among other things), the chapter ends
with Demandred asking "Have I not done well Great Lord?"
-Kravell
Kevin D. Jones
Timberwolf <tw...@coastnet.com> wrote in article
<34730...@news.pinc.com>...
> >>>> Fel's death, since there really aren't all that many of them just
lying
> >>around.
> >>>
> >>>Consider what goes through Rand's head. <snip> He now has to
> >>>fear the unknown (not that he doesn't already, to be sure).
> >>>
> >>A gray man could have avoided notice, and they are 'hitmen' by
definition.
> >>Forsaken certainly have access to them. Yet a gholam was used anyway.
> I'm
> >Possibilities:
> >
> <snip>
>
> <snip>> Wasting an old guy who doesn't even know he's in danger
dousn't sound like
> an efficient use of a gholam to me.<snip>>
> -Timberwolf, wondering... is there such a word as "madder"?
>
A Gholam is employed for 3 reasons: 1) He (meaning Sammeal) had one. 2)
The damn Castle grounds are full of people who could channel. 3) He had
to be sure Herid Fel was dead. In this age, only Matt has stood against.
As far as everyone else is concerned, including the Forsaken, they are damn
near unstoppable.
kevin
Pulsar
In article <34732D...@hotmail.com>, hans...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Mark Loy wrote:
> >
> > In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
> > <kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > The forsaken would be doing _their_ bidding.
> >
>
> Well, the Gholam is known to be dangerous to Forsaken as well as any
> other channeler. Graendal thought about how she had an almost fatal
> incident with a Gholam...
Err... I thought she almost had a fatal experience with what are now known
as "worms" in the blight.
Pulsar
<pul...@springnet1.com>
Kay-Arne Hansen
Mark Loy wrote:
>
> In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
> <kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
> > dousn't sound like
> > > an efficient use of a gholam to me.<snip>>
> > > -Timberwolf, wondering... is there such a word as "madder"?
> > >
> >
> > A Gholam is employed for 3 reasons: 1) He (meaning Sammeal) had one. 2)
> > The damn Castle grounds are full of people who could channel. 3) He had
> > to be sure Herid Fel was dead. In this age, only Matt has stood against.
> > As far as everyone else is concerned, including the Forsaken, they are damn
> > near unstoppable.
>
>
> Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
> against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
> bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
> other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
> wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is probably
> the Dark Power thereby making them perfect weapons against the Light. Sam
> must know this, as well, as without a channeler knowing how to kill one of
> these critters, they'd be vulnerable to them themselves.
>
> Think about it...how would Sam get the thing to do his bidding if there
> weren't some way for Sam to enforce his will on it? If they were
> completely immune to _all_ forms of channeling, _they'd_ be the one
> ordering forsaken around.
>
>
Well, the Gholam is known to be dangerous to Forsaken as well as any
other channeler. Graendal thought about how she had an almost fatal
incident with a Gholam...
--
KAH
Daniel Schoenmann
My eyes and ears tell me, that on 19 Nov 1997 16:18:17 GMT,
ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark Loy) wrote:
>In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
><kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
[snip discussions wether the use of a gholam for the ismemberment of
Fel was efficient]
>
>Just wanted to point out something, here.
>
>Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
>against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
>bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
>other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
>wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is probably
>the Dark Power thereby making them perfect weapons against the Light. Sam
>must know this, as well, as without a channeler knowing how to kill one of
>these critters, they'd be vulnerable to them themselves.
>
>Think about it...how would Sam get the thing to do his bidding if there
>weren't some way for Sam to enforce his will on it? If they were
>completely immune to _all_ forms of channeling, _they'd_ be the one
>ordering forsaken around.
Maybe the way of controlling a gholam is related to the way Mat's
fox-medallion was made. Both gholam and medallion are objects of the
power but are immune to it resp. neutralize it.
Remember the contact of gholam and medallion at Ebou Dar - the
Shadowspawn did not like it. This might be a indication how gholam can
be controlled or defeated.
Daniel Schoenmann
"Law, logicke and the Switzers can be hired
to fight for anybody" Thomas Nash
Adam Nevraumont
In article <347330af...@news.bluewin.ch>,
Daniel Schoenmann <schoe...@REMOVETHISbluewin.ch> wrote:
>My eyes and ears tell me, that on 19 Nov 1997 16:18:17 GMT,
>ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark Loy) wrote:
>
>>In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
>><kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
>[snip discussions wether the use of a gholam for the ismemberment of
>Fel was efficient]
[SNIP - TP used to control gholams?]
>
>Maybe the way of controlling a gholam is related to the way Mat's
>fox-medallion was made. Both gholam and medallion are objects of the
>power but are immune to it resp. neutralize it.
>
>Remember the contact of gholam and medallion at Ebou Dar - the
>Shadowspawn did not like it. This might be a indication how gholam can
>be controlled or defeated.
'Tortured to death, one foxhead at a time' - <0 pts.>
Timberwolf
>>Maybe the way of controlling a gholam is related to the way Mat's
>>fox-medallion was made. Both gholam and medallion are objects of the
>>power but are immune to it resp. neutralize it.
>>
>>Remember the contact of gholam and medallion at Ebou Dar - the
>>Shadowspawn did not like it. This might be a indication how gholam can
>>be controlled or defeated.
>
If Sammael has complete control over a gholam why hasn't he used it
against another Forsaken? Or same thing for the others.
I agree, therefore- there must be a failsafe somewhere in there.
-Timberwolf
Kay-Arne Hansen
> > >
> > > In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
> > > <kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
> > >
> <snip>
> > >
> >
> > Well, the Gholam is known to be dangerous to Forsaken as well as any
> > other channeler. Graendal thought about how she had an almost fatal
> > incident with a Gholam...
>
> as "worms" in the blight.
Worms???? Nah, I don't think so...
I admit that I base this on my leaky memory, but I almost sure Graendal
thought about Gholam.
*Graendal thinking about Aginor*
"...The man had been brilliant, but he was also crazy...only a madman
would make the Gholam!"
This chain of thought came while Graendal was thinking on how she had an
almost fatal experience with Gholam.
And worms??? How could they possibly be any threat to a Forsaken. Even
Lan could chop one of those like Salami. :)
---
KAH
Patrik Montgomery
In article <mloy-19119...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu
(Mark Loy) wrote:
>
>
> Just wanted to point out something, here.
>
> Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
> against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
> bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
> other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
> wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is probably
> the Dark Power
True Power?
> thereby making them perfect weapons against the Light. Sam
> must know this, as well, as without a channeler knowing how to kill one of
> these critters, they'd be vulnerable to them themselves.
OK, there has to be a way to control them somehow, but I'm not sure if
it's the True Power. The FS seem _really_ reluctant to use it. If they had
to use it every time a gholam started feeling like he'd like to try his
strength, they'd all have saas and be raving mad. OK, Aginor _is_ mad
(Graendal says so), but would he do that?
If Aginor is so brilliant he must have been able to figure out something
better than that, some sort of mental lock or something. Maybe it's some
sort of Compulsion, woven before the gholam get their channeling
resistance (assuming that they grow like other shadowspawn and reach their
full powers after a while). The TP as the key is an appealing thought -
Occam's razor and everything - but let's not make things to simple here.
>
> Think about it...how would Sam get the thing to do his bidding if there
> weren't some way for Sam to enforce his will on it? If they were
> completely immune to _all_ forms of channeling, _they'd_ be the one
> ordering forsaken around.
>
> The forsaken would be doing _their_ bidding.
Can't argue with this. There is some way to control them, but I don't
think it's as easy as the True Power.
Patrik Montgomery http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-18713/
If builders built houses the way programers write programs, then the
first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.
dmcn...@middlebury.edu
Kay-Arne Hansen wrote:
> [And lo, there was snippage]
> And worms??? How could they possibly be any threat to a Forsaken. Even
> Lan could chop one of those like Salami. :)
I may be wrong, but as I recall (sorry, I wish I could cite) Lan was
about to charge off to face the worm(s?) and buy the rest of the party
time. I don't think he had any hope of surviving such a task (he was
being a Warder) and neither did Moiraine, so she called him back. The
whole group then hauled ass up the Blight mountains (I think Lan said
the worms didn't go into the mountains 'cause something there scared
them; how freaky is that?) and quite luckily set foot on the Eye. Thus,
the confrontation with the worms was averted.
My impression, on reading the passage, and this is only an inference, is
that Lan was quite emphatically not capable of slicing worms "like
Salami." At best, I think he hoped to stall and escape with his life,
but more likely, he and Moiraine both expected him to die in his
attempted confrontation.
This is all IIRC and IMHO, but I'm fairly certain it's at least an
accurate representation of the facts, inference aside.
Dan McNamara
Kevin D. Jones
Patrik Montgomery <patrik.m...@mbox200.swipnet.se> wrote in article
<patrik.montgomery...@dialup146-1-47.swipnet.se>...
> In article <mloy-19119...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu
> (Mark Loy) wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Just wanted to point out something, here.
> >
> > Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
> > against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
> > bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
> > other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
> > wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is
probably
> > the Dark Power
>
> <snip>
> Can't argue with this. There is some way to control them, but I don't
> think it's as easy as the True Power.
>
> Patrik Montgomery http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-18713/
>
> If builders built houses the way programers write programs, then the
> first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.
>
I don't believe so either. Otherwise, Matt would be carrying a talisman
made by the DO. I wonder if male chosen are as scared as female. It could
be invulnerable to Saidar (f), and controllable by Saidan (m).
kevin
Michael Boland
Kay-Arne Hansen <hans...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> > Well, the Gholam is known to be dangerous to Forsaken as well as any
>> > other channeler. Graendal thought about how she had an almost fatal
>> > incident with a Gholam...
>>
>> Err... I thought she almost had a fatal experience with what are now known
>> as "worms" in the blight.
>Worms???? Nah, I don't think so...
>I admit that I base this on my leaky memory, but I almost sure Graendal
>thought about Gholam.
>*Graendal thinking about Aginor*
>"...The man had been brilliant, but he was also crazy...only a madman
>would make the Gholam!"
>This chain of thought came while Graendal was thinking on how she had an
>almost fatal experience with Gholam.
>And worms??? How could they possibly be any threat to a Forsaken. Even
>Lan could chop one of those like Salami. :)
No, it actually was worms Grendal was talking about.
--
Sean Boland.
morr...@maths.tcd.ie
Timberwolf
Kevin D. Jones wrote in message <01bcf687$f197b340$478066ce@kevin>...
>
>
>Patrik Montgomery <patrik.m...@mbox200.swipnet.se> wrote in article
><patrik.montgomery...@dialup146-1-47.swipnet.se>...
>> In article <mloy-19119...@134.68.134.43>, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu
>> (Mark Loy) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Just wanted to point out something, here.
>> >
>> > Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
>> > against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
>> > bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
>> > other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
>> > wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is
>probably
>> > the Dark Power
>>
>> <snip>
>
>> Can't argue with this. There is some way to control them, but I don't
>> think it's as easy as the True Power.
>>
>
>I don't believe so either. Otherwise, Matt would be carrying a talisman
>made by the DO. I wonder if male chosen are as scared as female. It could
>be invulnerable to Saidar (f), and controllable by Saidan (m).
>
>kevin
>
Or perhaps the female gholams are controled by saidar and the males by
saidin (or the other way around)....
-Timberwolf
Pulsar
In article <654cdh$4...@graves.maths.tcd.ie>, morr...@maths.tcd.ie (Michael
Boland) wrote:
> Kay-Arne Hansen <hans...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >
<snip>
> >Worms???? Nah, I don't think so...
>
> >I admit that I base this on my leaky memory, but I almost sure Graendal
> >thought about Gholam.
>
> >*Graendal thinking about Aginor*
> >"...The man had been brilliant, but he was also crazy...only a madman
> >would make the Gholam!"
>
> >This chain of thought came while Graendal was thinking on how she had an
> >almost fatal experience with Gholam.
>
> >And worms??? How could they possibly be any threat to a Forsaken. Even
> >Lan could chop one of those like Salami. :)
>
> No, it actually was worms Grendal was talking about.
Okay, I read that part of the book again. It looks like it was probably a
Gholam.
Here is the whole relevant passage (Page 347 LoC, To Understand a Message):
"On the other hand," he went on, "think how awful it would have been to
open a box and rouse a nest of cafar, say, or a jumara or one of of
Aginor's other little creations. Did you kow ther are jumara loose in the
Blight? Full-grown, though they'll never transform now. They call them
Worms." He laughed so hard at that, he shook.
Graendal smiled a good deal more warmly than she felt inside, though if
her gown changed color, it was by a hair. She had had an unpleasant, in
fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had
been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the
Gholam.
I suspect she actually did have a near fatal experience with a Gholam,
though it could possibly have been another of the seemingly many critters
Aginor made.
Pulsar
<pul...@springnet1.com>
Aline Thompson
dmcn...@middlebury.edu wrote:
>I may be wrong, but as I recall (sorry, I wish I could cite) Lan was
>about to charge off to face the worm(s?) and buy the rest of the party
>time. I don't think he had any hope of surviving such a task (he was
>being a Warder) and neither did Moiraine, so she called him back. The
>whole group then hauled ass up the Blight mountains (I think Lan said
>the worms didn't go into the mountains 'cause something there scared
>them; how freaky is that?) and quite luckily set foot on the Eye. Thus,
>the confrontation with the worms was averted.
At this point Rand was asking the Light to help him. He was quite
emphatic about it and almost immediately they rode into the Nym's area
where the Eye of the World was. I just reread it and was reminded of
the time he wanted Bela to run!!!!
Avatar
rqkl...@hia.net wrote:
>
> In article <64vh9e$1...@graves.maths.tcd.ie>,
> morr...@maths.tcd.ie (Michael Boland) wrote:
> >
> > If Samuel did send this gholam, why didn't he sent it after Rand. After
> > all, his intention for the attack was to kill Rand and capture Callandor
> > (he said this somewhere. Sorry, but I don't have the books with me).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> LOC 6 Threads Woven of Shadow, hc 133.
>
> > Rand would have been easy meet for the gholam, who would have been
> > immune to Rands saidin.
> >
> > This also makes me think, isn't it convienent that the DO said to 'Let the
> > Lord of Chaos rule' (assuming Rand is the LoC), convient for RJ. This way,
> > he can introduce gholam without his legions of fans shouting 'Why dosn't
> > Sammuel or the other forsaken use a gholam to kill Rand? It'd be _so_ easy!'
> >
>
> Why didn't Sammael send the Gholam after Rand? Good question, and
> I don't have a good answer. The best I can do is speculate that
> Sammael prefers overt military action. He uses covert tactics such
> as the Gholam only for specific special missions. Also, Trollocs are
> cheap. He wouldn't risk a valuable asset such as a Gholam unless
> the odds of success were near certain which is never the case when
> a ta'veren is involved.
>
a bit. The only thing that we know of that works anything like a gholam
is Mat's amulet, and we know that it's POSSIBLE to kill Mat with Power
with the amulet on (see the smoking boots scene in tFoH.) Two choices
here...
1) True Power use. Well, this theory's been kicked around A LOT on this
thread, and I kind of like it myself, but hey who knows? If the TP can
hit Mat it's safe to assume it can take down a gholam.
2) Indirect usage. The gholam will "melt" any flow that you use on it.
So don't use a flow on it. Toss heavy objects around. (This will be
hard, as it's pretty malleable, but using a large chunk of wall to push
it down a few stories and then flattening it with the same chunk would
at least get it out of the way... pancake style [though that wouldn't
kill it!]) Use the Power to melt a few rocks and coat the sucker in
magma. I leave other ways as an exercise for the reader.
Why is the gholam dangerous? Well, how many channelers use an indirect
method as their first attack? You can't just use Air or hit it with BF
or anything... it'll survive that. And by then it's on you (these things
are FAST remember?) -SNAP- goodbye pesky AS or whatever.
Avatar
Kay-Arne Hansen
> > Lan could chop one of those like Salami. :)
>
> about to charge off to face the worm(s?) and buy the rest of the party
> time. I don't think he had any hope of surviving such a task (he was
> being a Warder) and neither did Moiraine, so she called him back. The
> whole group then hauled ass up the Blight mountains (I think Lan said
> the worms didn't go into the mountains 'cause something there scared
> them; how freaky is that?) and quite luckily set foot on the Eye. Thus,
> the confrontation with the worms was averted.
>
Well, IIRC, there was a whole pack of worms on their tail, and (still
IIRC), when Lan wanted to go back, Moi said that even he could not take
on a whole pack of Worms. I interpretated it like Lan could kill one of
the worms alone, but that that was as much as he could do.
> My impression, on reading the passage, and this is only an inference, is
> that Lan was quite emphatically not capable of slicing worms "like
> Salami." At best, I think he hoped to stall and escape with his life,
> but more likely, he and Moiraine both expected him to die in his
> attempted confrontation.
>
> This is all IIRC and IMHO, but I'm fairly certain it's at least an
> accurate representation of the facts, inference aside.
You may be right. My interpretation isn't foolproof.
---
KAH
David Loewe, Jr.
On 19 Nov 1997 16:18:17 GMT, ml...@indyvax.iupui.edu (Mark Loy)
commanded the electrons to form this message:
>In article <01bcf506$5cf1f160$678066ce@kevin>, "Kevin D. Jones"
><kev...@city-net.com> wrote:
>
>> > <snip>> Wasting an old guy who doesn't even know he's in danger
>> dousn't sound like
>> > an efficient use of a gholam to me.<snip>>
>> > -Timberwolf, wondering... is there such a word as "madder"?
>>
>> A Gholam is employed for 3 reasons: 1) He (meaning Sammeal) had one. 2)
>> The damn Castle grounds are full of people who could channel. 3) He had
>> to be sure Herid Fel was dead. In this age, only Matt has stood against.
>> As far as everyone else is concerned, including the Forsaken, they are damn
>> near unstoppable.
>
>Just wanted to point out something, here.
>
>Aginor was no dummy. He created gholams so that the OP was useless
>against them so that they could kill channelers. But I'd be willing to
>bet that he created/built in some kind of "failsafe" so that he, and
>other forsaken strength/dark channelers could defeat one else they
>wouldn't have been able to control them. IMHO, that failsafe is probably
>the Dark Power thereby making them perfect weapons against the Light. Sam
>must know this, as well, as without a channeler knowing how to kill one of
>these critters, they'd be vulnerable to them themselves.
>
>Think about it...how would Sam get the thing to do his bidding if there
>weren't some way for Sam to enforce his will on it? If they were
>completely immune to _all_ forms of channeling, _they'd_ be the one
>ordering forsaken around.
>
>The forsaken would be doing _their_ bidding.
In every other fantasy, mystic and role playing situation I've ever
seen 'Golems' (or any variant spelling thereof) mentioned, they were
always mindless automatons. If RJ is consistent with 'other' 'Golems',
these will be too. Is there any evidence that RJ's 'Gholams' are
capable of independent thought?
--
"Never try to out stubborn a cat."
Lazarus Long
ThumBoy666
In article <347f086d...@news.inlink.com>, dlo...@nionslpianmk.com (David
Loewe, Jr.) writes:
>In every other fantasy, mystic and role playing situation I've ever
>seen 'Golems' (or any variant spelling thereof) mentioned, they were
>always mindless automatons. If RJ is consistent with 'other' 'Golems',
>these will be too. Is there any evidence that RJ's 'Gholams' are
>capable of independent thought?
They can talk, can't they?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
"But her hair smells like yellow Froot Loops!"
"I eat Froot Loops for breakfast."
"His name is God"
-Sandy
Asamonade
David Loewe said:
> Is there any evidence that RJ's 'Gholams' are
>capable of independent thought?
Yes, I think so. When the Gholam saw Mat
in Ebou Dar, he said something like "He wants
you dead almost as much as he wants the treasures."
This implies that Sammael had given the Gholam
orders, and that it had the mental ability to interpret
them.
-----------
Asamonade=Asmodean kind of. "Had I not known, that I was already
dead, I would have mourned, my loss of Life."
David Loewe, Jr.
On 28 Nov 1997 00:54:00 GMT, thumb...@aol.com (ThumBoy666) commanded
the electrons to form this message:
>In article <347f086d...@news.inlink.com>, dlo...@nionslpianmk.com (David
>Loewe, Jr.) writes:
>
>>In every other fantasy, mystic and role playing situation I've ever
>>seen 'Golems' (or any variant spelling thereof) mentioned, they were
>>always mindless automatons. If RJ is consistent with 'other' 'Golems',
>>these will be too. Is there any evidence that RJ's 'Gholams' are
>>capable of independent thought?
>
>They can talk, can't they?
The 'Golems' were capable of being controlled much as if the
controller was wearing a VR suit that worked the 'Golem'. So, the
speech could be the controller.
--
"He can't even run his own life, I'll be damned if he'll run mine."
Jonathan Edwards