Travelling - an irresistable superweapon?
Andrew Gellert
minutes against anyone with the Travelling ability. Eggy doesn't need
a big, rested army - even a few thousand troops and SAS popping up all
over Tar Valon and inside the WT should end it immediately. You'd
think that would be instantly obvious to the SAS - why do they
hesitate for even a moment?
In fact, how can anyone (except possibly the FS) resist forces that
can put commando squads into their HQ day or night? I'm sure that
there are BT men from Ebou Dar or Tanchio who could open gateways into
Seachan HQ areas, or place armies behind and around and non-travelling
armies. Rand did this with a small force against the Seachan with
excellent results - he could do it with 100,000 Aiel anytime. What
army could resist?
It almost seems like too much power not to upset the whole story.
Joseph
"Andrew Gellert" <aja...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3cca0a1d...@news.mindspring.com...
> As some others have mentioned, I don't see how the WT AS will last 5
> minutes against anyone with the Travelling ability. Eggy doesn't need
> a big, rested army - even a few thousand troops and SAS popping up all
> over Tar Valon and inside the WT should end it immediately. You'd
> think that would be instantly obvious to the SAS - why do they
> hesitate for even a moment?
a) becuase there are wardings that could either alert people or spring a
trap on people coming through gateways.
b) becuase splitting up your forces, risks a defeat in detail.
c) becuase as soon as the Tower AS see a couple gateway they'll figure out
how to use them also.
d) while Egwene would probably win despite the above it would be a bloody
battle with the lives of many AS lost, which neither side actually wants.
ct, how can anyone (except possibly the FS) resist forces that
> can put commando squads into their HQ day or night? I'm sure that
> there are BT men from Ebou Dar or Tanchio who could open gateways into
> Seachan HQ areas, or place armies behind and around and non-travelling
> armies. Rand did this with a small force against the Seachan with
> excellent results - he could do it with 100,000 Aiel anytime. What
> army could resist?
>
> It almost seems like too much power not to upset the whole story.
Traveling may look more powerful than it should becuase of the split between
male and female channelers. If an army or group that has male and female
channelers, they nullify each others ability to Travel around like that by
being able to detect the other side. It becomes more like a chess game or
something.
JRS
Madelinne
Hey,
The thing with the Tower though is that the war is for the 'hearts and
minds' of the bulk of the AS. They want to cut off the head and keep
the body, to continue body part analogies. I'm hoping that Elaida's
insanity and the cadre of Salidar AS in the midst of the Tower witch
hunt will make the Tower itself self-destruct. I imagine Egwene's
blockade as a method for forcing the Tower AS lend their ears (I
couldn't stop myself from the ear thing.). Guerilla warfare isn't
going to do that.
I think you could easily win a pyrrhic victory with Traveling, but
maybe not a clean one; not one that would leave the tower feeling
united afterwards. Also, even if you just take out the barracks and
whatnot, the other AS may well see and learn traveling, and then
no-one is safe ever. If some of them learn quick and link, the battle
itself could turn into a rout. Traveling is a surprise weapon that
can only be used once against a group of AS - at least if you're doing
it where they can see.
It seems to me sort of like nuclears in Dune. On the other hand, I'm
probably just not being creative. ;)
Madelinne
Richard Boye
>
> As some others have mentioned, I don't see how the WT AS will last 5
> minutes against anyone with the Travelling ability. Eggy doesn't need
> a big, rested army - even a few thousand troops and SAS popping up all
> over Tar Valon and inside the WT should end it immediately. You'd
> think that would be instantly obvious to the SAS - why do they
> hesitate for even a moment?
Well, because, despite what you seem to think, based upon your previous
posts, Egwene is not some evil, power-mad meglomaniacal cunt who will
stop at nothing to see herself in control of the White Tower and then
she'll stop right there and take it easy.
Despite her youth, Egwene is trying very hard to be a -true- Amyrlin
Seat and "Mother" to the Aes Sedai, which include those still inside the
Tower. Rightly or wrongly, she sees them all as her 'daughters.' We have
numerous POVs from here where she is gravely concerned about spilling
blood between the camps, knowing that once that occurs, her goal of
reconciliation and unification is impossible. Her siege is probably just
going to be a giant bluff - she really doesn't want to starve the Tower
Aes Sedai to death either.
Now, you are probably asking why she even cares. She cares because she
doesn't want to destroy the Tower in the process of gaining it.
Why? Because she wants the strongest Tower possible, and independent
Tower, mind you, but the strongest possible one to ally with the Dragon
Reborn.
Yes, she could easily send in commando teams of warders and such to kill
the Tower Aes Sedai in their beds, but that would well and truly destroy
any hope of reunion. Even the attempt would severely undermine her
credibility as a unifying figure. Recall that one of the factors the
Salidar Aes Sedai considered in selecting Egwene was her neutrality as a
woman who was not inside the Tower during the coup de tour, and
therefore would be seen as consensus candidate.
In any event, with Alviarin's dark allegiances and Elaida's debacles on
the verge of undermining her regime, and in light of Egwene's
demonstrated triumphs, there will very likely be a political settlement
anyway.
--
RMB
wa...@webspan.net
The only thing that allows me to keep my tenuous grip on reality in my
friendship with my collection of singing potatoes.
Andrew Gellert
wrote:
hmmm.... I guess you disagree with me on some points. I don't think
Egwene is evil, power-mad, etc. I do think she she is insufficently
focused on TG and helping Rand - but we can RAFO.
The point I was trying to make was that she seems to be sold on giving
Bryne's army a month of R&R prepatory to a formal seige of TV. Bryne
has told her he is unlikely to succeed where Artur Hawkwing failed -
but will try. In any case, TG is probably not many months away.
I would guess that the BA/Meseeana would be perfectly happy to have TV
and all the AS tied up in civil war right through TG.
Now imagine this - one dark night soon, ziiiiip - Task forces are
gated into TV - the gates, bridges and crossings are secured - the SAS
forces enter without more resistance. The barracks are surrounded and
secured. Elaida and Alviarin are shielded. War over - minimal
casualties.
If Elaida and the BA can be deposed without any confronatation - even
better, but right now that seems entirely out of Egwene's control, and
I don't recall any way she might even know of anti-Elaida forces
within the WT, since the SAS spies were discovered.
On the level of personality, Egwene is far less abraisive than most
of the other AS, and has gotten more done. My objection to her is
that she still seems to treat Rand as an adolesent sheepherder.
Perhaps she will change that when she is better settled, but she has
made no effort to try to coordinate with and support Rand, the Dragon
Reborn. He is the leader of the war against the DO, and all the rest
is just sideshow.
Since you seem to feel pretty strongly about my postings, let me ask
you - do you enjoy the characters of Nyn, Elaine, Cadsuane, Faile? If
they were real people, say who were your peers at work, and treated
you the way they treat Rand&co, would that be OK by you? Do you know
a lot of women like them? Do you think they are realistic characters?
John S. Novak, III
> Well, because, despite what you seem to think, based upon your previous
> posts, Egwene is not some evil, power-mad meglomaniacal cunt who will
> stop at nothing to see herself in control of the White Tower and then
> she'll stop right there and take it easy.
No, but I am *eagerly* awaiting the moment when someone-- hopefully
Rand-- points out that she's being just as manipulative and political
in the pursuit of her generally noble goals as Rand ever had been in
Tear... where she castigated him for it.
Daes Dae'mar was invented by the White Tower, of course, and Egwene is
playing it very well, despite her prior protestations.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Richard Boye'
>
> In article <3CCED6...@webspan.net>, Richard Boye wrote:
>
> > Well, because, despite what you seem to think, based upon your previous
> > posts, Egwene is not some evil, power-mad meglomaniacal cunt who will
> > stop at nothing to see herself in control of the White Tower and then
> > she'll stop right there and take it easy.
>
> No, but I am *eagerly* awaiting the moment when someone-- hopefully
> Rand-- points out that she's being just as manipulative and political
> in the pursuit of her generally noble goals as Rand ever had been in
> Tear... where she castigated him for it.
Good point.
This is an example of "walk a mile in my mocasins."
Egwene was still rosy and shiny new when she castigated Rand on his use
of realpolitik in Tear. Since then, she's learned to wallow in it as
well. Egwene's poltical education is somewhat lagging behing Rand's.
Then again, she's also younger than he is.
I suspect that this will cause her to be *way* less critical of him when
they finally meet, perhaps even symapthetic.
Maybe, but nah.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
EagleClaw
> of realpolitik in Tear. Since then, she's learned to wallow in it as
> well. Egwene's poltical education is somewhat lagging behing Rand's.
> Then again, she's also younger than he is.
But wait.... women mature way faster than guys... well, that's the crap I
was fed as a teenager- I have yet to see any evidence of it. That statement
assumes that men mature at all...
> I suspect that this will cause her to be *way* less critical of him when
> they finally meet, perhaps even sympathetic.
>
> Maybe, but nah.
I still can't figure out where you stand on her- one minute valiantly (but
wrongly :) defending her, then a little poke...
Doug LeBeau
Bakuun
him [rand] when
> they finally meet, perhaps even symapthetic.
>
> Maybe, but nah.
"the dragon reborn shall stand before the Amyrlin Seat, and he shall know
her anger."
As we all know, 'the amyrlin seat' here means Egwene, so i seriously doubt
that she and Rand will be friendly with eachother the next time they see
eachother..
(of course, that foretelling could be of a later meeting, but I doubt it,
for some reason that I can't explain ;)
//Bakuun
Haler
> >Andrew Gellert wrote:
> >>
> >> As some others have mentioned, I don't see how the WT AS will last
5
> >> minutes against anyone with the Travelling ability. Eggy doesn't
need
> >> a big, rested army - even a few thousand troops and SAS popping up
all
> >> over Tar Valon and inside the WT should end it immediately. You'd
> >> think that would be instantly obvious to the SAS - why do they
> >> hesitate for even a moment?
> >Yes, she could easily send in commando teams of warders and such to
kill
> >the Tower Aes Sedai in their beds, but that would well and truly
destroy
> >any hope of reunion. Even the attempt would severely undermine her
> >credibility as a unifying figure. Recall that one of the factors the
> >Salidar Aes Sedai considered in selecting Egwene was her neutrality
as a
> >woman who was not inside the Tower during the coup de tour, and
> >therefore would be seen as consensus candidate.
> I would guess that the BA/Meseeana would be perfectly happy to have TV
> and all the AS tied up in civil war right through TG.
Isn't that the point? Halima is in charge of Eg and by Halima's account
Eg is pinned under her thumb. This leads me to believe that much of
what Eg has done is through Halima's compulsion. The DO controls both
sides of the battle and yes, he will tie everything up right through TG,
or attempt it anyway.
Haler
Richard Boye'
Please try to whittle down your posts by removing the bits your aren't
responding to.
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:36:19 GMT, Richard Boye <wa...@webspan.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Andrew Gellert wrote:
> >>
> >> As some others have mentioned, I don't see how the WT AS will last 5
> >> minutes against anyone with the Travelling ability. Eggy doesn't need
> >> a big, rested army - even a few thousand troops and SAS popping up all
> >> over Tar Valon and inside the WT should end it immediately. You'd
> >> think that would be instantly obvious to the SAS - why do they
> >> hesitate for even a moment?
> >
> >Well, because, despite what you seem to think, based upon your previous
> >posts, Egwene is not some evil, power-mad meglomaniacal cunt who will
> >stop at nothing to see herself in control of the White Tower and then
> >she'll stop right there and take it easy.
[sa'snip]
[remove .sigs too]
> hmmm.... I guess you disagree with me on some points.
I guess you coud say that.
> I don't think
> Egwene is evil, power-mad, etc. I do think she she is insufficently
> focused on TG and helping Rand - but we can RAFO.
You keep saying that. I'd like you to elaborate on what you expect her
to be doing? What can she reasonably be expected to do given her
circumstances?
Until extremely recently, she was a puppet figure among the rebels.
Since then, she's been busy consolidating her authority, expanding her
army, and now she's managed to codswallop an additional substantial
force of armsmen into joining her army. She's focused on stepping up
recruitment, opening the novice book to all who wish, regardless of age,
she's making long term plans to affiliate the Wise Ones and the
Windfinders with the Tower, she's welcomed back the Kinswomen who were
previously sent away. She managed to get the rebels off their collective
ass so that they can finally challenge Elaida and ultimately ally the
entire Tower with Rand.
What else can she do?
> The point I was trying to make was that she seems to be sold on giving
> Bryne's army a month of R&R prepatory to a formal seige of TV. Bryne
> has told her he is unlikely to succeed where Artur Hawkwing failed -
> but will try. In any case, TG is probably not many months away.
She's waiting for the Tower to disintegrate from within.
> I would guess that the BA/Meseeana would be perfectly happy to have TV
> and all the AS tied up in civil war right through TG.
Well, duh. This is undoubtedly why the Black Ajah was so eager to pull
Suian down after her dramatic directive was announced.
Life would have been somewhat easier for Rand, on a few levels, if he
had the backing of the White Tower. Sulky nobles would have been cowed
by a few Aes Sedai appearing in the great-rooms or levees. Fence-sitters
would have been swayed, more or less, by the official proclamation that
the Dragon is Reborn. Several astute political figures, such as Davram
Bashere abnd Thom Merrillin recognize that the Tower's sanction would
have gone a long way towards stabilizing Rand's movement. Of course,
Thom also is very wary of the Tower's wherewithal, and also cautioned
Rand to not let them get too much control over him.
Instead, with the Aes Sedai neutralized by an internal struggle,
fomented and exacerbated by the Forsaken, and the nations stirred up by
Forsaken intrigue, Rand's struggles have been so much more difficult.
Now, I am not saying that the White Tower would have alleviated all of
Rand's political struggles, but consider how much easier it would have
been if he could dispatch skilled negotiators to handle things, like he
has been doing ever since Dumai's Wells.
> On the level of personality, Egwene is far less abraisive than most
> of the other AS, and has gotten more done. My objection to her is
> that she still seems to treat Rand as an adolesent sheepherder.
> Perhaps she will change that when she is better settled, but she has
> made no effort to try to coordinate with and support Rand, the Dragon
> Reborn. He is the leader of the war against the DO, and all the rest
> is just sideshow.
No disagreement there, but Egwene's got her mission - to consolidate
the Aes Sedai and their supernational organization so that she can
"fight for Rand" like she pledged in Rhuidean. She has thought, time and
time again, that the best course of action is for her to consolidate her
base, and then approach Rand. Judging from her point of view, sending an
embassy won't work. Send in an embassy, the ambassadors end up prisoners
in tents doing manual labor and acting as scullery maids. She thinks
that the best face of all to send is her or Nynaeve. Guess what -
Nynaeve is there now.
> Since you seem to feel pretty strongly about my postings, let me ask
Ø you - do you enjoy the characters of Nyn, Elaine, Cadsuane, Faile?
Ø If they were real people, say who were your peers at work, and
treated
> you the way they treat Rand&co, would that be OK by you? Do you know
> a lot of women like them? Do you think they are realistic characters?
Ø
Your question is loaded and unfair.
I enjoy their characters, but am unlikely to encounter any women like
them because I am not the product of a feudal society with ingrained
notions of deference and obedience towards nobles and rulers, nor am I
product of a world where the culture is steeped with the notion that men
brought the end of the world and the downfall of civilization, nor am I
the product of a world that women are entitled to and will exercise
power and at the very last an equal footing with men. Least of all, I am
certainly not of a world where there is a three thousand year old order
of sorceresses, with a High Sorceress who can exercise supreme political
power if she wanted. No, I don't know anyone like them, nor can I be
reasonably expected to.
However, the ones you named are very well characterized people, given
their setting and culture.
Let's start with Nynaeve. Now, granted, I am not the product of a rural
backwoods community with a local woman who exercises a great deal of
authority over things like planting and caring for the sick or educating
the children, but since Nynaeve is, and is also insecure about her age
and beauty while having to wield that authority. I'd say her temper and
stridency are well suited to her background. I would also note that
Nynaeve's growth from wanting to merely save the young Duopotamians from
Moiraine's clutches, to wanting to learn to channel so she could get
revenge on Moiraine for fucking up their lives, to ultimately deciding
that she wants to harness her Creator given gift to Heal, is very
organic and human.
Now, the odds of meeting an Elayne-like person are even worse. I am glad
to say that I have never met a stunningly beautiful woman who is both
enormously wealthy and the heiress to an absolute monarchy, and who just
so happens to have been raised to expect that her -older- brother is to
defer to her and that his life's mission is to ensure that he dies
defending her own life. I also do not know anyone like that who also is
a powerful sorceress with the power to call fire and wind to her aid at
a whim. If you know where I can find such a person, and where I might be
employed so that I would count such a person as a co-worker, please do
let me know.
She's haughty, she's arrogant. She also is compassionate and brave. All
in all, given her training and background, I'm surprised she's not more
annoying. As one of the Asha'man said to Rand as he had to clock
another one for being surly, "you cannot tell a man he has the ability
to make the Earth tremble and expect him to walk small." Apparently,
though, some expect a woman to.
Let's turn now to Cadsuane. Again, I find nothing unrealistic about a
woman who has had nearly FIFTEEN times the life experiences of Rand, as
well as being a mighty and revered sorceress, thinking that she might
just know a little more than the newly cleaned up sheepherder from the
ass-end of nowhere. She's intelligent, she's powerful, and she's also
competent. If she seems a little overbearing, well good for her. It's
certainly not out of character for her to behave as she does. Again, I'd
would like to point out that the odds me actually having a three hundred
year old sorceress from a society that reveres and fears her as a
co-worker are exceedingly slim.
Finally, Faile. Once again, I find Faile to be a perfectly natural,
albeit sometimes grating, product of her society. She's an heiress to a
vast estate in Saldaea, well educated, wealthy, and close kin to royalty
in a world where that actually means something. She is also is from a
society with skewed ideas of marital harmony that include troubling
notions that blend loyalty and affection with physicality and dominance.
Also, she's not all that pretty, but she has a long running feud with a
gorgeous sultry woman who made an unbreakable oath that she would do
everything she could o steal her husband, which really undermines her
already fragile ideas of the integrity of her marriage. Perrin, her
husband, is unwilling to manhandle her and browbear her in a way that
her father did with her mother, and thus is Faile's eyes, not willing to
demonstrate his love.
Yes, that's fucked up, but you can't pick your background. Faile
vacillates between being a petty, shrewish creature to a courageous and
heroic woman. Yes, she tricked Perrin into letting her accompany him
through the Ways, but she also volunteered to sneak into a Whitecloak
camp to rescue the Cauthons and Luhanns. Yes, she gives Perrin the
frigid treatment when she thinks he's paying Berelain attention, but
she's also the woman who led the Devin's Riders in battle to save
Emmond's Field. She stayed as an attendant to Colavaere to learn
information to help overthrow her, she also guided Perrin through the
steps of being the capable governing lord that the Duopotamians raised
him to be, often exercising her good judgment in his name, sowing the
seeds of a growing economy and seeing the needs of refugees. And she's
nineteen.
When you find me a young woman with all that baggage and background,
I'll let you know if I find her a fine co-worker. Based upon all that we
know of her world, upbringing and culture, I think she's as realistic as
possible.
John S. Novak, III
[Egwene the Wondergirl]
> Until extremely recently, she was a puppet figure among the rebels.
> Since then, she's been busy consolidating her authority, expanding her
> army, and now she's managed to codswallop an additional substantial
> force of armsmen into joining her army. She's focused on stepping up
> recruitment, opening the novice book to all who wish, regardless of age,
> she's making long term plans to affiliate the Wise Ones and the
> Windfinders with the Tower, she's welcomed back the Kinswomen who were
> previously sent away. She managed to get the rebels off their collective
> ass so that they can finally challenge Elaida and ultimately ally the
> entire Tower with Rand.
> What else can she do?
It's a question of motives, and the purity thereof.
While Egwene may be pure of heart and pure of intent, wanting to
salvage the White Tower only so that Rand can have its support in the
Last Battle, I don't think things are quite that clean.
For one, she doesn't muse to herself along those lines very often; she
seems rather intent on saving the White Tower for its own sake.
For another, I find it quite out of character for Egwene to climb all the
way to the top of that particular heap, only to submit her authority
to Rand's-- more likely, by the time she's made it that far, she'll be
like everyone else in Randland, in trying to put terms and limitations
on how and what Rand can do.
For a third, by the time she's salvaged the White Tower from threats
internal and external, I doubt she'll be willing to make the kind of
sacrifices or take the kinds of risks that will likely be necessary,
and will constantly try to shelter them.
Andrew Gellert
wrote:
>Andrew Gellert wrote:
>
....
>> I don't think
>> Egwene is evil, power-mad, etc. I do think she she is insufficently
>> focused on TG and helping Rand - but we can RAFO.
>
>You keep saying that. I'd like you to elaborate on what you expect her
>to be doing? What can she reasonably be expected to do given her
>circumstances?
The WT issued a decree claiming Rand as their property. What is the
SAS response? What is their policy toward Rand? If they has issued
a decree supporting Rand, even if they promised nothing, relations
would be a lot better, and both the SAS and Rand would have
benefitted.
The SAS embassy was clearly a disaster for both sides, when the SAS
were suckered by the attack on Demira - which they really should have
known better that to react blindly to. It was sent before Egwene
became Amyrlin, so Egwene is still ok with Rand, although you might
say the SAS owe Rand for dumping on him under false premises. I would
have thought Egwene, Rand's childhood friend and almost wife, who Rand
still trusts, might have worked out a positive relationship, say,
meeting with the WO in TAR to work out language for a decree to
counter the WT one. Egwene is busy, I know, but TG is the big issue.
If Rand doesn't win, there will be no AS at all.
>
>
>What else can she do?
> .....
>
>She's waiting for the Tower to disintegrate from within.
How does she know the WT is disintegrating from within? My
recollection is that she seems committed to at least beginning the
seige option. Clearly, it might be that she hopes pressure will crack
the WT, but she really doesn't know what is going on.
.....
>
>Now, I am not saying that the White Tower would have alleviated all of
>Rand's political struggles, but consider how much easier it would have
>been if he could dispatch skilled negotiators to handle things, like he
>has been doing ever since Dumai's Wells.
Oddly enough, two sets of AS skilled negotiators were smoked by
windfinders.
....
>
Judging from her point of view, sending an
>embassy won't work. Send in an embassy, the ambassadors end up prisoners
>in tents doing manual labor and acting as scullery maids. She thinks
>that the best face of all to send is her or Nynaeve. Guess what -
>Nynaeve is there now.
As I said above, they were bad embassadors. For reasons unknown to
Rand, they started threatening him in a very serious way. You could
say the 'kneel or be kneeled' scene in Dumai's Wells was a case of
being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the psychology was set
up by SAS previous threat. I think something direct from Egwene,
mutual respect and support, blah blah, would have been a big boost to
both sides.
>
>
>> Since you seem to feel pretty strongly about my postings, let me ask
>Ø you -...
>
>Your question is loaded and unfair.
>
>I enjoy their characters, but am unlikely to encounter any women like
>them because I am not the product of a feudal society with ingrained
>notions of deference and obedience towards nobles and rulers,
...
Well, you and a lot of readers enjoy them. I and a lot of readers do
not. Purely a matter of taste. Please understand, though, that for
many readers who feel as I do (look at amazon.com's reviews for some
pretty funny objections to the girls), this is a big problem. RJ is a
good writer who is great at hooking his readers - it is very hard to
walk away and leave all the mysteries unsolved. Reading the last few
books, however, has become something of a chore for 'us' because of
this problem, so we feel free to bitch and moan about it. That's what
the 'Net is all about. You, of course, are equally free to bitch and
moan about our posts.
Writing fiction, SF and Fantasy above all, requires that characters in
totally different situations, even aliens, have recognizable human
personalities and interactions. Now, I agree that people in different
environments act differently. I remember seeing the movie 'Becket',
(one if my all time favorites still), about the friendship and later
enmity between King Henry II and St. Thomas a Becket, when I was in
high school, and realizing at that moment that the past was
fundamentally different from the present. But the personality
questions were still the same. Henry pushed Thomas too far with his
kingly authority for Thomas to remain his friend, and when
circumstances changed, he could not count on Thomas. Even bug eyed
monsters should have consistent personalities. (Larry Niven is my
favorite for creating great alien characters).
Nyn, Elayne and many of the AS wear white hats in the storyline, but
act on a personal level like villians - they are rude and overbearing
to people who don't deserve it. I actually would enjoy their
characters if they were villians or semi villians. People I have met
like Nyn - always angry, always thinking they are right and put upon,
always disparaging - are considered bad people by the ones who work
with them. So are people like Elayne - the snot nosed kids of company
owners put into management, etc. Cadsuane reminds me of school
principals - I have AUTHORITY so you must grovel before me, for you
own good..
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original comments. There are
people with personalities like this, but they are too damaged to
fulfill major roles. They do not meet the success and acceptance of
the Wonder Girls. The heroes do not love them anyway. No good person
deals with them if they can avoid it.
In the last year, Rand has been nearly killed every month, had people
he feels responsible for killed because of him, near fatally wounded
twice, faced extended torture, and seems to be just about the only one
who is working to defeat the forces of universal evil. Feel free to
disagree with me, but I would enjoy the books more if a few more
people were nice to him, even to the extent Min is. Is humiliating
Rand really the only way to introduce a little humanity back into him?
Wouldn't it be nice if Cadsuane put her arm around Rand's shoulder and
said 'You have a heavy load, son, but I'll be right here to help'
(queue Carol King - Ain't it good to know you've got a friend)
>
>
Faile
. And she's
>nineteen.
small nit - I thought the timeline in the FAQ implied she is 16.
>
>When you find me a young woman with all that baggage and background,
>I'll let you know if I find her a fine co-worker. Based upon all that we
>know of her world, upbringing and culture, I think she's as realistic as
>possible.
>
Just to reiterate - ladies with the vast ego problems of the ones we
are discussing 1) are, in life and fiction, usually bad guys. 2) the
world doesn't usually twist itself to accomodate them. My opinion -
no more and no less - is that RJ mars his books with ugly and
unrealistic relationships between some of the female characters and
all the others. Feel free to disagree.
John S. Novak, III
>> No, but I am *eagerly* awaiting the moment when someone-- hopefully
>> Rand-- points out that she's being just as manipulative and political
>> in the pursuit of her generally noble goals as Rand ever had been in
>> Tear... where she castigated him for it.
> Good point.
> This is an example of "walk a mile in my mocasins."
Very much so.
> Egwene was still rosy and shiny new when she castigated Rand on his use
> of realpolitik in Tear. Since then, she's learned to wallow in it as
> well. Egwene's poltical education is somewhat lagging behing Rand's.
> Then again, she's also younger than he is.
> I suspect that this will cause her to be *way* less critical of him when
> they finally meet, perhaps even symapthetic.
One hopes.
But I am currently having a hard time giving her that sort of credit.
I suspect that someone-- Rand, Thom, Sorilea, whomever-- will have to
beat it into her head like a drum before she wises up.
On the other hand, if she does notice it and re-evaluate past actions,
her stock will rise quite a bit for me.
James Robinson
aja...@mindspring.com (Andrew Gellert) wrote:
[The WoT girls as characters]
> Writing fiction, SF and Fantasy above all, requires that characters in
> totally different situations, even aliens, have recognizable human
> personalities and interactions.
OK, as you point out below, this bare criterion is satisfied, at least
by your lights.
> Nyn, Elayne and many of the AS wear white hats in the storyline, but
> act on a personal level like villians - they are rude and overbearing
> to people who don't deserve it.
This is not in the least bit unique to the women. Whitecloaks, Lan,
various Aiel, a whole flock of assorted nobles, Mat and Rand have all
been at turns haughty, rude, coarse, condescending and overbearing.
Perrin prefers to be gruff, passive agressive and noncommital.
> I actually would enjoy their characters if they were villians or semi
> villians. People I have met like Nyn - always angry, always thinking
> they are right and put upon, always disparaging - are considered bad
> people by the ones who work with them.
You're overlooking the fact that she's also compassionate, hard
working, brave, loyal, highly skilled, and occasionally even right. Her
principle faults have been overcompensation for things that she felt
undermined her given authority (youth, beauty), and an overzealousness
in looking out for people she feels responsible for. These are hardly
the faults of a villain. At worst, she would be an antihero, but RJ has
used her more for comic relief.
> So are people like Elayne - the snot nosed kids of company
> owners put into management, etc.
Except that, again, she cares genuinely for her charges, she's loyal,
brave and hardworking, and at least competent. WH ended with what
appears to be a dire test of her competence as a ruler, and to her
credit she has gone to work without hesitation, despite distractions and
exhaustion.
I don't blame RJ for having a lot of fun with her being a fish out of
water for most of the books, but I don't think anyone's surprised that
she acts like she grew up in a palace. Considering the nature of
herself (one of the most powerful AS in a thousand years), her position
and her upbringing it's a point in her favor that she doesn't act nearly
as stuck up as, say, the Tairens.
> Cadsuane reminds me of school principals
Many of her charges remind me of schoolchildren.
> I have AUTHORITY so you must grovel before me, for you
> own good..
She acts like an Aes Sedai, except that she's unusually strong, almost
preternaturally observant (especially for an AS), efficient, honest and
frequently right. She's also accustomed to dealing with people (AS,
male channelers and most recently, Aiel Wise Ones) who have to be herded
as much as led.
She's been rough with Rand, after a fashion, but anyone who hasn't
been tends to be completely ineffectual (exception: Elayne, who uses
other ways to get past his defenses). He's as bullheaded as anyone else
in the series, Machiavellian, mistrustful, and very much aware of the
power and fear he commands.
> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original comments. There are
> people with personalities like this, but they are too damaged to
> fulfill major roles. They do not meet the success and acceptance of
> the Wonder Girls. The heroes do not love them anyway. No good person
> deals with them if they can avoid it.
I think that if you look at the characters in toto, rather than
lingering on their faults, they're sympathetic enough to be dealt with.
I disagree that they can't fulfill major roles: They're all, at root,
good-hearted, brave and firm in their beliefs. Sometimes character
flaws, including some that are now considered psychological problems,
are an /advantage/, particularly where power and charisma are concerned.
There's another variable as far as love goes: Rand is /fated/ to love
three of them, so the instant attraction he's felt to them, and the
recoiling instinct he's had from the likes of Berelain, has very little
to do with what he thinks, or what they think. That's the Wheel weaving.
> In the last year, Rand has been nearly killed every month, had people
> he feels responsible for killed because of him, near fatally wounded
> twice, faced extended torture, and seems to be just about the only one
> who is working to defeat the forces of universal evil.
Not Egwene? Not Nynaeve, who left everything she knew and everyone
she was responsible for in an effort to save his hide, who just helped
him cleanse /saidin/, among other things? Not Egwene, who has deployed
skills she didn't even know she had in order to transform herself from a
village girl Accepted, a puppet ruler and a sacrificial lamb into a
contestant for the most powerful seat in Randland - all to help Rand?
Not Elayne, who is nearly as responsible as Moiraine is for Rand's
political education, and who is busily trying to whip her country back
into shape so that she can support him (much like Egwene, actually).
Min has been a steadfast companion and advisor, despite the fact that,
of all people surrounding Rand, she is probably the least able to defend
herself from any of the perils he faces. Faile's mercurial personality
is a perfect antidote to Perrin's (equally annoying) brooding
indecision. She's most of the reason he's done as well as he has.
The only character whose suitability was in question in my mind was
Mat, but note the past tense. He'll fit the trickster archetype to the
end, but at least he's learned to feel responsibility. That said, he is
the only one of Rand's entourage (unless you count Taim) who is heavily
foreshadowed to betray him.
The girls in the series don't have ta'veren luck behind them, but the
burdens on their shoulders are hardly lighter. Considering that they
have to fall back on more conventional means to accomplish things that
are unheard of in their Age, I can't fault them for much.
> Feel free to disagree with me, but I would enjoy the books more if a
> few more people were nice to him, even to the extent Min is. Is
> humiliating Rand really the only way to introduce a little humanity
> back into him?
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if Cadsuane put her arm around Rand's shoulder and
> said 'You have a heavy load, son, but I'll be right here to help'
> (queue Carol King - Ain't it good to know you've got a friend)
If you put your arm around Rand and talk sweet, he'll wonder what
you're trying to wheedle out of him. That goes triple if you're an Aes
Sedai. In fact, if you're an AS he won't let you get near enough to
touch him.
> Just to reiterate - ladies with the vast ego problems of the ones we
> are discussing 1) are, in life and fiction, usually bad guys. 2) the
> world doesn't usually twist itself to accomodate them. My opinion -
> no more and no less - is that RJ mars his books with ugly and
> unrealistic relationships between some of the female characters and
> all the others. Feel free to disagree.
Will do.
Exhibit A for vast ego problems: Rand. Even for strict, etymological
readings of the word "ego." Since he really is the center of everything
in a sense, everyone has to deal with him. You argue that no-one would
treat someone with severe ego problems well, and then expect everyone to
be sweet and cozy to Rand. The one woman who was, for a while at least,
was *Lanfear*.
If Rand were not as prone to bullheadedness and rages and paranoia and
intimidation and hardball politicking as he is, Cadsuane (and, for that
matter, Moiraine, or Egwene, or Nynaeve) might well have taken a
different approach to dealing with him.
--
James
Richard Boye'
>
> On Wed, 01 May 2002 19:37:48 GMT, Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Andrew Gellert wrote:
> >
> ....
> >> I don't think
> >> Egwene is evil, power-mad, etc. I do think she she is insufficently
> >> focused on TG and helping Rand - but we can RAFO.
> >
> >You keep saying that. I'd like you to elaborate on what you expect her
> >to be doing? What can she reasonably be expected to do given her
> >circumstances?
>
> The WT issued a decree claiming Rand as their property.
Actually, that is overstating what they said, but since it's all
Alviarin's bullshit, it doesn't matter.
> What is the
> SAS response? What is their policy toward Rand? If they has issued
> a decree supporting Rand, even if they promised nothing, relations
> would be a lot better, and both the SAS and Rand would have
> benefitted.
Unfortunately, this does not answer my question. Numerous ideas and
positions are being flung around inside the Salidar Hall, involving the
Black Ajah, rapproachment with the Tower and yes, that 400 lb gorilla,
the Dragon Reborn. Unfortunately, because of the relatively fractuous
structure of the Hall, they areget strangled by opposing factions.
However, that's neither here nor there - what do you expect _Egwene_ to
do? Up until extremely recently, she was not allowed to pen her own
decrees and her policy objectives were nixed. She had to trick the Hall
into gaining executive control over the "war" with Elaida, but we have
seen time and time again, relations with the Dragon Reborn as well as
relations with the Kinswomen, Aiel and Sea Folk are not considered "war"
related, and thus still open to deliberation and vote by the Hall.
What can _Egwene_ do?
> The SAS embassy was clearly a disaster for both sides, when the SAS
> were suckered by the attack on Demira - which they really should have
> known better that to react blindly to.
Why? Why should they really have known better? What information did
Demira Sedai have before some guy in Caidin'sor plunges a spear into her
intestines that would let her know that he was a faux Aiel? Rand forbade
the Aes Sedai from entering the New City. Rand has hordes of Aiel with
him Caemlyn, acting as police and guards. Demira drifts too close to the
Origan Gate that leads to the New City and moments later she is skewered
by a man dressed like an Aiel, telling her to "stay away from the Dragon
Reborn," and wakes up in bed. What in there indicates that she should
have reason to know that it was not Rand's directive?
You seem to forget that the world at large beleives Rand capable of
atrocities - sicking his Aiel savages on the Stone, letting them loot
it, ordering the executions of Tairen High Lords, and also neatly
disposing of Queen Morgase. Let's not even discuss what the popular
opinion would be of his camp for channeling lunatics and would-be
Breakers of the World.
> It was sent before Egwene
> became Amyrlin, so Egwene is still ok with Rand, although you might
> say the SAS owe Rand for dumping on him under false premises.
_You_ might say that, but you haven't sufficiently explained what you
mean by that, or _how_ Egwene has "dumped on him under false pretenses."
False according to whom? Who knows they are false, and why? The
characters aren't omniscient.
> I would
> have thought Egwene, Rand's childhood friend and almost wife, who Rand
> still trusts, might have worked out a positive relationship, say,
> meeting with the WO in TAR to work out language for a decree to
> counter the WT one. Egwene is busy, I know, but TG is the big issue.
Egwene is not in a position to make any decrees not related to the
prosecution of the "war" against Elaida. She had to swindle the Hall
into allowing her to meet with the Andoran and Murandian nobles so she
could publish her opening of the novice book. That was bad enough.
If she used that particular soapbox to make a decree about the Dragon
Reborn, she'd find herself deposed or at the very least closeted, and
insulated against making any decrees ever again. That would really help
Rand, huh?, having Lelaine or Romanda in the Amyrlin Seat?
You expect too much of her and don't sufficiently pay attention to her
means and circumstances.
> If Rand doesn't win, there will be no AS at all.
Very profound. How does that bear on Egwene's limited ability to steer
policy towards Rand?
[...]
> >She's waiting for the Tower to disintegrate from within.
>
> How does she know the WT is disintegrating from within? My
> recollection is that she seems committed to at least beginning the
> seige option.
Well, aside from her nightly forays into the White Tower to rifle
through Elaida's and Alviarin's paperwork, she also has Leane who has a
small network of agents positioned inside of Tar Valon.
> .....
> >
> >Now, I am not saying that the White Tower would have alleviated all of
> >Rand's political struggles, but consider how much easier it would have
> >been if he could dispatch skilled negotiators to handle things, like he
> >has been doing ever since Dumai's Wells.
>
> Oddly enough, two sets of AS skilled negotiators were smoked by
> windfinders.
Oddly enough, what do you mean?
The deal worked out with the Windfinders got him what he wanted - a
ready-made navy. He put no restrictions on what they allowed to bargain
with. If, as you say, everyone's eyes should be on the ball of achieving
readiness for Tarmon Gaidon and the hell with the smaller policies and
fringe issues, what difference does it make if the Sea Folk gain tariff
free zones in some of Rand's cities.
To put a fine point on it, If Rand doesn't win, there will be no trade
or cities at all.
The other facets of the Bargain - wanting a representative with him as
he makes use of their people and ships, putting them in danger, and
having to meet with the Mistress of the Ships upon her summons are
really not so very horrendous considering he wants to use their people
and ships to wage war. They'd be miserable rulers if they didn't have a
care for their people. Did you expect them to blindly agree to put their
entire culture at his disposal?
And if Rand thought his Aes Sedai so incompetant, he shouldn't have
dispatched more to settle the Tairen Rebellion, no?
> Judging from her point of view, sending an
> >embassy won't work. Send in an embassy, the ambassadors end up prisoners
> >in tents doing manual labor and acting as scullery maids. She thinks
> >that the best face of all to send is her or Nynaeve. Guess what -
> >Nynaeve is there now.
>
> As I said above, they were bad embassadors. For reasons unknown to
> Rand, they started threatening him in a very serious way. You could
> say the 'kneel or be kneeled' scene in Dumai's Wells was a case of
> being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the psychology was set
> up by SAS previous threat. I think something direct from Egwene,
> mutual respect and support, blah blah, would have been a big boost to
> both sides.
So Rand can be forgiven for gaps in his understanding of events, but
they can't.
Rand beleives that are overreacting and demanding for their announcement
that they will not heed his strictures. He doesn't know why. He is
dealing with limited information. Based on upon their refusal to follow
his strictures (after one of them was nearly killed), and limited input
from Min, his subjugation and humiliation of the Salidar embassy at
Dumai's Wells is, to you, perfectly fine and justifiable.
Okay.
By the way, could you please elaborate by what you mean by "SAS threat?"
The Salidar embassy never threatened Rand. After Demira was stabbed,
they all walked in and played uber-Aes Sedai and announced that they
would no longer accept his restrictions, using the OP to enhance their
height. Rand shatters their illusion easily and they stalk out in a
huff. Whoa... pretty threatening. Shudder. Their previous meeting was
very cordial.
However, can you tell me why the actions of the Salidar embassy were
also not justifiable based upon their equally limited view of the same
events? They send him an embassy. They give him deference. They accede
to his restrictions by staying out of the New City. One of them drifts
too close to the New City. A man dressed like an Aielman nearly kills
her and warns her to stay way from the Dragon Reborn. They get pissed.
They refuse any more strictures.
Tell me how Rand's behavior, based upon limited information was okay,
but their behavior, based upon also limited information is not.
> >Since you seem to feel pretty strongly about my postings, let me ask
> >you -...
> >
> >Your question is loaded and unfair.
> >
> >I enjoy their characters, but am unlikely to encounter any women like
> >them because I am not the product of a feudal society with ingrained
> >notions of deference and obedience towards nobles and rulers,
>
> ...
>
> Well, you and a lot of readers enjoy them. I and a lot of readers do
> not. Purely a matter of taste. Please understand, though, that for
> many readers who feel as I do (look at amazon.com's reviews for some
> pretty funny objections to the girls), this is a big problem.
Ah, the appeal to the masses.
> RJ is a
> good writer who is great at hooking his readers - it is very hard to
> walk away and leave all the mysteries unsolved. Reading the last few
> books, however, has become something of a chore for 'us' because of
> this problem, so we feel free to bitch and moan about it. That's what
> the 'Net is all about. You, of course, are equally free to bitch and
> moan about our posts.
I don't appreciate you dismissing my discussion and debate of your
points as "bitching and moaning." I have yet to begin bitching or
moaning. You have yet to begin debating.
> Writing fiction, SF and Fantasy above all, requires that characters in
> totally different situations, even aliens, have recognizable human
> personalities and interactions. Now, I agree that people in different
> environments act differently.
You have failed to provide evidence that the women do not have
recognizable human personalities and interactions. They love, they hate,
they have insecurities and fears, confidences and pride. Just because
_you_ and the masses over at Amazon.com don't happen to like them
doesn't make them any less genuine.
> I remember seeing the movie 'Becket',
> (one if my all time favorites still), about the friendship and later
> enmity between King Henry II and St. Thomas a Becket, when I was in
> high school, and realizing at that moment that the past was
> fundamentally different from the present. But the personality
> questions were still the same. Henry pushed Thomas too far with his
> kingly authority for Thomas to remain his friend, and when
> circumstances changed, he could not count on Thomas. Even bug eyed
> monsters should have consistent personalities. (Larry Niven is my
> favorite for creating great alien characters).
Let's all drift away from the issue. Pack your bags. We're taking a
vacation from the subject matter!
> Nyn, Elayne and many of the AS wear white hats in the storyline, but
> act on a personal level like villians - they are rude and overbearing
> to people who don't deserve it.
Yes, how dare Nynaeve try and rescue her people! How insidious! How
villianous and evil she was for trying to rescue Panarch Amathera, and
how dubious and sinsister she was for rescuing Egwene from Falme and how
coldly conniving she was for jaunting to Almoth in the first place! Help
Rand? Why the sheer audaciousness! How dare she Heal Rand and help him
torch Rahvin.
A lot of Nynaeve's more abrasive ideas are never voiced - they are her
thoughts from within her POV. Her actions are nothing short of heroic.
> I actually would enjoy their
> characters if they were villians or semi villians. People I have met
> like Nyn - always angry, always thinking they are right and put upon,
> always disparaging - are considered bad people by the ones who work
> with them.
Really. Considered by whom? You and you conveniently like-minded masses?
> So are people like Elayne - the snot nosed kids of company
> owners put into management, etc.
Wow, let's try inserting her into an even less fitting situation!
[...]
> In the last year, Rand has been nearly killed every month, had people
> he feels responsible for killed because of him, near fatally wounded
> twice, faced extended torture, and seems to be just about the only one
> who is working to defeat the forces of universal evil.
Absolutely!
Let's conveniently ignore all the heroic deeds and sacrifices all the
other characters have done! Bowl of the Winds? Screw it. Let the world
dessicate and dry out! Help Rand combat Rahvin in Caemlyn when he was on
the verge of losing? Nynaeve should have stayed home. Transport Mat all
the way back to the White Tower so he could be freed from the Shadar
Logoth? Why, that must have been Rand.
Hunt the Black Ajah? That must have been Rand too. Try to rescue Rand
from Galina? Rand did it all by himself. Cleanse Saidin? Good thing he
could do that all by himself. Guard Rand as he was laboring to cleanse
Saidin single-handedly? That must have been circles of more Rands
battling the Forsaken. Wow, he really gets around, that Rand guy.
Establish an unified Andor and vigorous White Tower to wage Tarmon
Gaidon alongside the Dragon Reborn? Why bother! Rand is the only one who
cares.
Egwene was captured by the Seanchan and tormented and tortured as a
damane for _months_ all because she wanted to help Rand out of danger.
Bitch! Elayne nearly died en route to Tear to help Rand _again_.
Malignant little minx. The girls were about to be sold to a Myrdraal.
All three of the girls were beaten and imprisoned in Tear. Elayne and
Nynaeve were nearly abducted in Tanchico and Amadicia. Elayne was
poisoned. Egwene was wounded by Lanfear in Cairhien. Faile has been
captured by the Shaido because she wants to aid her husband on a mission
given to him by Rand.
But, hey, none of that counts because you and pet legions don't think
they have human qualities. They act like villains. They're all bitches.
I admire the simplicity of your reading and world view. Details are
bothersome. It really is much easier if you ignore all the contradictory
evidence.
[...]
> >When you find me a young woman with all that baggage and background,
> >I'll let you know if I find her a fine co-worker. Based upon all that we
> >know of her world, upbringing and culture, I think she's as realistic as
> >possible.
> >
> Just to reiterate - ladies with the vast ego problems of the ones we
> are discussing 1) are, in life and fiction, usually bad guys.
According to you. Despite their achievements and deeds, they're
"bitches." They have "egos." They are "proud." They are to be faulted
for having limited knowlege. All that goes wrong is their fault. Why did
they even bother putting on shoes that morning.
> 2) the
> world doesn't usually twist itself to accomodate them.
In RJ's world, it does. Wrap your head around that.
> My opinion -
> no more and no less - is that RJ mars his books with ugly and
> unrealistic relationships between some of the female characters and
> all the others. Feel free to disagree.
Thanks for your unneeded permission.
Belka
> It's a question of motives, and the purity thereof.
> While Egwene may be pure of heart and pure of intent, wanting to
> salvage the White Tower only so that Rand can have its support in the
> Last Battle, I don't think things are quite that clean.
>
> For one, she doesn't muse to herself along those lines very often; she
> seems rather intent on saving the White Tower for its own sake.
>
> For another, I find it quite out of character for Egwene to climb all the
> way to the top of that particular heap, only to submit her authority
> to Rand's-- more likely, by the time she's made it that far, she'll be
> like everyone else in Randland, in trying to put terms and limitations
> on how and what Rand can do.
Noone of the Wundergirls really wants to help Rand, even
Elayne, who muses about it quite often. If they really
wanted, they could do some thing which is very easy but
*very* valuable: to share information. Look for example
at Perrin. He learned about Seanchan invasion, and his
first thought is: Rand should know about this. Well, Faile
was correct, he had no means to share info without harming
Rand's scheme about him (to keep Perrin afar, and his
affairs secret from Rand's suite).
Now, what happens when a wundergirl learns something of the
same (or greater) importance. She thinks immediately: Egwene
(Nyn, Ela) should know about this. And they have means to
share info safely and quickly: TAR. Why the thought never
occured to them, to teach Rand to visit TAR, to give a copy
of twisted ring to him, to scedule meetings? Is it too
difficult? No, it's rather easy and harmless, but they idea
never crossed their minds. I was shocked when I read in one
of early books how Birgitte showed Nyn a Forsaken meeting,
and Nyn *never* *ever* considered to send any message to Rand.
She learned their plans about Rand, discussed them with her
friends (real friends I mean, the girls), and how about
Rand himself? Nothing.
Now about Egwene: many books ago she left the idea of active
helping Rand in any way. Probably since her travel to the Aiel
Waste. Rather than share anything with him, she spyed on him.
How angry was she when he warded his dreams :). No, Egwene
couldn't be considered Rands friend. She is his ally (like
Borderlander rulers, Seafolk rulers, etc.) Even Aiel Wise Ones
are more his friends and helpers than Egwene.
This is no crime in my eyes actually. Everybody has her/his
right to go her/his own way. The idea that Egwene would allow
Rand to rule the White Tower sounds totally weird to me :).
She would rather allow Elaida. (Elaida is at least an Aes Sedai,
and who is Rand?) But Rand is a more skillful manipulator than
Egwene, and if he wanted he could arrange her to let him rule
the WT. But what point is it to Rand? His policy is to allow
his allies to maintain their own affairs themselves, and just
to admit his rulership formally. So the idea of Egwene as an
ally ruler would be just fine to Rand. Ally means that she is
no enemy, that's all :). Slightly better than Elaida, much worse
than the Aiel. On the Seafolk level probably.