Involuntary Rings (some KoD prologue SPOILERS)
Rajiv Mote
(mentioned by Moridin in The Path of Daggers). The FAQ interprets the
term as the link between sul'dam and damane through the a'dam. This
may not be the full story.
First, the reference to "involuntary rings":
The Path of Daggers, Chapter 2 "Unweaving"
[Moridin's PoV] "These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A
way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible!
Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the
bond they shared with their Aes Sedai."
I'm assuming that the Warder bond is a separate "surprise," and not an
elaboration on "involuntary rings."
Just a few chapters later, we get another reference to the involuntary
linking of channelers.
The Path of Daggers, Chapter 5 "The Breaking Storm"
Renaile: "You say that one woman can simply seize another, hold her
captive, use her? How long have you Aes Sedai known this?"
Sareitha: "It doesn't work that way, Renaile." ... "The Tower studied
this for many years, long before the Trolloc Wars. I have read every
page that survives in the Tower Library of those studies. It was proven
conclusively that one woman cannot form a link with another against her
will."
Elayne's POV: Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little
else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet
Elayne wondered. What was in the pages that had not survived? She had
noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point.
So Sareitha is holding something back about involuntary linking. And
now *SPOILERS* in the prologue to Knife of Dreams *SPOILERS* we learn
that some Aes Sedai know how to force a woman into a link against her
will:
"What they had learned about the Black Ajah's means of putting someone
to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible. Forcing a
woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain?
Pevera felt her stomach writhing."
Not only does this give us a better definition of "involuntary rings,"
it gives us more evidence that Sareitha is Black Ajah -- since she
evidently knows of this practice. And if Sareitha IS Black Ajah, that
solves two mysteries: Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? Who is the
Darkfriend channeler that Lady Shiane intends to use in the Royal
Palace of Andor? It's looking like Sareitha.
-- Rajiv
Frank van Schie
> Sareitha: "It doesn't work that way, Renaile." ... "The Tower studied
> this for many years, long before the Trolloc Wars. I have read every
> page that survives in the Tower Library of those studies. It was proven
> conclusively that one woman cannot form a link with another against her
> will."
>
> Elayne's POV: Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little
> else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet
> Elayne wondered. What was in the pages that had not survived? She had
> noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point.
>
> So Sareitha is holding something back about involuntary linking. And
> now *SPOILERS* in the prologue to Knife of Dreams *SPOILERS* we learn
> that some Aes Sedai know how to force a woman into a link against her
> will:
Mind you, Adeleas and Vandene were reported to be the biggest
knowledgebase outside of the WT, as said in Ch. 22 of TGH:
"[...]but Vandene and Adeleas had more knowledge their fingertips than
existed anywhere else but the White Tower."
Given that Vandene was also listed as potential BA, if you're willing to
draw links back to books written 10 or more years ago, this might be a
more direct link. And nothing, of course, would prevent Vandene having
an ally.
But otherwise, yeah.
isamu3
support it since in all likelihood, Liandrin sent the Draghkar after
Moiraine. In fact, I thought she admitted to it in one of her PoV's.
And that seems to be the main reason she was suspected.
As for not knowing about forced circles, it is entirely possible that
there are no records of it even if the WT discovered that it could be
done. That seems to be something right up there with Compulsion and
Balefire and I can see the WT erasing the evidence of its existence for
the "good" of the Tower and whatnot.
steveo
"isamu3" <heath...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128044248.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Which brings me to a question about forgetting things.
It seems to me that the very last things that would be forgotten would be
good Healing techniques and Travelling. Come on, are there any two weaves
likely to be practiced more in the Breaking?? Run away, Heal, run away,
Heal. Repeat.
It seems incredibly contrived that the two most useful weaves would be lost.
Maybe Healing, as it was just an inferior form and not a complete loss, but
there's no way that a weave like Travelling would be forgotten.
It would be like us forgetting modern hygiene & health (eg baths are good,
cook your meat, boil your water, getting sick is not an imbalance in your
'humours,' etc.).
steveo
zed246
Rajiv Mote wrote:
> Elayne's POV: Renaile nodded, accepting at last; there was very little
> else to do when an Aes Sedai made a simple statement of fact. Yet
> Elayne wondered. What was in the pages that had not survived? She had
> noticed a slight change in Sareitha's inflection at one point.
>
> So Sareitha is holding something back about involuntary linking. And
> now *SPOILERS* in the prologue to Knife of Dreams *SPOILERS* we learn
> that some Aes Sedai know how to force a woman into a link against her
> will:
>
> "What they had learned about the Black Ajah's means of putting someone
> to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible. Forcing a
> woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain?
> Pevera felt her stomach writhing."
>
> Not only does this give us a better definition of "involuntary rings,"
> it gives us more evidence that Sareitha is Black Ajah -- since she
> evidently knows of this practice. And if Sareitha IS Black Ajah, that
> solves two mysteries: Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? Who is the
> Darkfriend channeler that Lady Shiane intends to use in the Royal
> Palace of Andor? It's looking like Sareitha.
>
> -- Rajiv
Oh, come on! because of "slight change in Sareitha's inflection" you
deduced she is Black Ajah?
Maybe the entire topic made her a bit unconfotable, maybe it was her
failure, maybe she had an itch in her leg, maybe she wanted to sneeze,
or sniff, or snort, or tap her finger to her lips. maybe maybe maybe.
David Chapman
> It seems incredibly contrived that the two most useful weaves would be
> lost. Maybe Healing, as it was just an inferior form and not a complete
> loss,
There weren't all that many specialist Healers, and those there were tended
to specialise to the exclusion of regular Healing. The reason the
battlefield healing weave survived was because so many people knew it.
> but there's no way that a weave like Travelling would be forgotten.
Travelling requires a certain amount of strength, and from the etiquette
associated with it it also appears to be a province of the upper classes.
--
Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
David Chapman
> Rajiv Mote wrote:
>> Not only does this give us a better definition of "involuntary rings,"
>> it gives us more evidence that Sareitha is Black Ajah -- since she
>> evidently knows of this practice. And if Sareitha IS Black Ajah, that
>> solves two mysteries: Who killed Adeleas and Ispan? Who is the
>> Darkfriend channeler that Lady Shiane intends to use in the Royal
>> Palace of Andor? It's looking like Sareitha.
> Oh, come on! because of "slight change in Sareitha's inflection" you
> deduced she is Black Ajah?
It's fairly certain that a Black sister killed Adeleas. If so, the only
candidates are Merilille, Sareitha, Careane and Vandene. Any evidence
suggesting that one of them is Black should have attention paid to it.
Eric Means
David Chapman wrote:
> It's fairly certain that a Black sister killed Adeleas. If so, the only
> candidates are Merilille, Sareitha, Careane and Vandene. Any evidence
> suggesting that one of them is Black should have attention paid to it.
Y'know, I actually just read this part of the books this week, and
something kind of jumped out at me.
Elayne is in the palace in Caemlyn, having just started to solidify her
hold on the city (started hiring Guards, etc). Vandene brings two of
the Kin to Elayne and announced that they have worked out that the
killer *must* have been either Merilille, Sareitha, or Careane.
The two Kin are two who had run away from the Tower; at this point
Vandene has (according to Tower Law) put them back in novice white and
they are taking lessons from the AS in the palace.
The reasoning given is twofold. One, that there was crimsonthorn in
the tea (which immobilized Adeleas and Ispan), and that Adeleas would
never have accepted anything to drink from anyone she didn't know while
interrogating a BA. Thus the windfinders and random bystanders are
eliminated.
Two, that there are *no* Darkfriends among the Kin. The *sole* reason
given for this is that Ispan doesn't know of any Darkfriends among the
Kin; she knows "only as much as any Aes Sedai" about the Kin.
According to Vandene/Elayne's reasoning, if there were Darkfriends
among the Kin, Ispan would know by virtue of being BA.
However, this last point is highly questionable. We already know that
Darkfriends in general don't all know each other, and that the BA in
specific holds its membership very secret. There probably are not BA
among the Kin, because the BA are still bound by the Oath Rod and thus
have the ageless look. Nonetheless, there is no reason whatsoever to
assume that Ispan *must* know any Darkfriends among the Kin, and plenty
of reason to believe that the BA would have had the Kin infiltrated
just as they would any other group. (There are Darkfriends among
*beggars*, why would they ignore a group of channelers, especially one
that could help them locate disgruntled channelers?)
So the statement that it could not have been anyone among the Kin
because Ispan would have known them (and given them up) is on its face
not convincing. In order to be convinced that it wasn't one of the
Kin, then, we have to believe that Adeleas would not take tea from any
of the Kin.
To put it plainly, I think it's quite possible that none of the AS were
responsible for Adeleas/Ispan -- I think it was one of the Kin.
Rajiv Mote
Eric Means wrote:
<snip>
> To put it plainly, I think it's quite possible that none of the AS were
> responsible for Adeleas/Ispan -- I think it was one of the Kin.
You're certainly right in thinking that just because the Black Ajah
doesn't know any more about the Kin than any other Aes Sedai, it
doesn't follow that there are NO Darkfriends among the Kin.
But the Kin were the keepers of a secret in which the Forsaken
(Sammael, Moghedien, perhaps others) were very interested: the
*'angreal storehouse. If there were Darkfriends among the Kin, surely
one of the Forsaken should have been able to seize the cache before
Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve found it.
It still remains possible that a non-Aes Sedai is the culprit.
Merilille's maid, Pol, is suspicious simply because she popped up as a
named character and keeps getting mentioned, without actually doing
anything. She *could* be a disguised channeler. But Sareitha is
suspicious too, from her support of Daved Hanlon to her possible
knowledge of Black Ajah secrets. Of course, these tidbids could be
clues or red herrings. I guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks.
-- Rajiv
Eric Means
Rajiv Mote wrote:
> Eric Means wrote:
> You're certainly right in thinking that just because the Black Ajah
> doesn't know any more about the Kin than any other Aes Sedai, it
> doesn't follow that there are NO Darkfriends among the Kin.
>
> But the Kin were the keepers of a secret in which the Forsaken
> (Sammael, Moghedien, perhaps others) were very interested: the
> *'angreal storehouse. If there were Darkfriends among the Kin, surely
> one of the Forsaken should have been able to seize the cache before
> Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve found it.
If and only if the Forsaken know where all the DFs are. As organized
as the bad guys seem to be, it's still been a short time since they
were freed, and Ebou Dar is a pit of chaos; they may not have known
they had Darkfriends who were that close to a bunch of *angreal.
And then, of course, there's the question of how the BA/DF/gholam team
happened to arrive at the *angreal cache at the same time as Mat, Nyn,
and El. They may have been watching someone in that party, or they may
have discovered the cache independently (finally talked to the Kin DF)
and only Mat's luck got them to the cache before it was cleaned out.
Lots of uncertainty there.
> It still remains possible that a non-Aes Sedai is the culprit.
> Merilille's maid, Pol, is suspicious simply because she popped up as a
> named character and keeps getting mentioned, without actually doing
> anything. She *could* be a disguised channeler. But Sareitha is
> suspicious too, from her support of Daved Hanlon to her possible
> knowledge of Black Ajah secrets. Of course, these tidbids could be
> clues or red herrings. I guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks.
All good points as well. It's always possible that there wasn't a
*single* person responsible, but that there were 2 or more there.
Maybe the BA *did* know all about the Kin and had DFs in place, but
Ispan wasn't important enough to be told. We have lots of examples of
DFs jealously guarding information from each other, after all.
Jeremy C. Ellis
> It seems incredibly contrived that the two most useful weaves would be lost.
> Maybe Healing, as it was just an inferior form and not a complete loss, but
> there's no way that a weave like Travelling would be forgotten.
It seems possible that Traveling might have been used less and less;
when the entire world's landscape is changing, you might not know your
destination well enough to Travel to it. As it was used less and less
(and there were less and less Aes Sedai), Traveling might have slipped
through the cracks.
--
Jeremy C. Ellis
jer...@likeawebsite.com
http://www.likeawebsite.com | http://infinitelame.blogspot.com
David Chapman
> steveo wrote:
>
>> It seems incredibly contrived that the two most useful weaves would be
>> lost. Maybe Healing, as it was just an inferior form and not a complete
>> loss, but there's no way that a weave like Travelling would be forgotten.
>
> It seems possible that Traveling might have been used less and less;
> when the entire world's landscape is changing, you might not know your
> destination well enough to Travel to it.
This is a very good point.
Rajiv Mote
Eric Means wrote:
<snip>
> Elayne is in the palace in Caemlyn, having just started to solidify her
> hold on the city (started hiring Guards, etc). Vandene brings two of
> the Kin to Elayne and announced that they have worked out that the
> killer *must* have been either Merilille, Sareitha, or Careane.
There is a small additional reason to suspect that one of the Aes Sedai
with Elayne is Black Ajah. In Winter's Heart ("A Plan Succeeds"):
"They _are_ wilders, Eldrith." Temaile threw herself down in a chair,
limbs spraling carelessly, and her tone hardened. Not enough to seem
commanding, but still more than merely firm. "There are only three
sisters to trouble us, and we can dispose of them. We can take
Nynaeve, and perhaps Elayne in the bargain."
Unless Temaile's intel is wrong, she should know that there are four
"official" Aes Sedai with Nynaeve and Elayne: Merilille, Sareitha,
Careane and Vandene. But, in Temaile's words, there are only "three
sisters to trouble us." The implication is that they know that one of
those four is Black Ajah.
There could be more than one Darkfriend among the extended group with
whom Elayne and Nynaeve have been traveling, but the simplest
explanation is that there is one Darkfriend, she is responsible for the
murder, she is Lady Shiaine's woman "already in the Palace," and she is
Aes Sedai.
-- Rajiv
zed246
David Chapman wrote:
>
> It's fairly certain that a Black sister killed Adeleas. If so, the only
> candidates are Merilille, Sareitha, Careane and Vandene. Any evidence
> suggesting that one of them is Black should have attention paid to it.
>
> --
> Who the f--k are you calling insolent?
All true, but to take a slight change in expression as an evidence is
far-fetched if you ask me.
zed246
completely bound by the seals), so wouldn't he know of the idea? I
won't be surprised if he was the one to teach it to the black sisters.
Jasper Janssen
Also, it didn't work during the breaking 'cause the land was all
a-changin', IIRC. And the Breaking took *generations*.
Jasper
Tim Bruening
steveo wrote:
> "isamu3" <heath...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1128044248.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm inclined to believe Vandene is not BA. There's no real evidence to
> > support it since in all likelihood, Liandrin sent the Draghkar after
> > Moiraine. In fact, I thought she admitted to it in one of her PoV's.
> > And that seems to be the main reason she was suspected.
> > As for not knowing about forced circles, it is entirely possible that
> > there are no records of it even if the WT discovered that it could be
> > done. That seems to be something right up there with Compulsion and
> > Balefire and I can see the WT erasing the evidence of its existence for
> > the "good" of the Tower and whatnot.
>
> Which brings me to a question about forgetting things.
>
> It seems to me that the very last things that would be forgotten would be
> good Healing techniques and Travelling. Come on, are there any two weaves
> likely to be practiced more in the Breaking?? Run away, Heal, run away,
> Heal. Repeat.
>
> It seems incredibly contrived that the two most useful weaves would be lost.
> Maybe Healing, as it was just an inferior form and not a complete loss, but
> there's no way that a weave like Travelling would be forgotten.
I was figuring that all the AS who were strong enough to Travel had died during
the Breaking before they could pass on their knowledge.