Silvie and Else Grinwell
Sok-Hyon Kang
In the FAQ, someone, (I think it's Pam K.) writes that Silvie is
definitely Lanfear, and IMO, I think that is wrong.
Using what we know from LOC and ACOS, I think that it is far more likely
that both Silvie and Else Grinwell are Mesaana, who adopted their
identities to further their plan for nabbing Rand in the Stone of Tear.
If you remember, in TDR, Else Grinwell came to Nynaeve, Elayne, and
Egwene, to tell them that the belongings of Liandrin and her group were
locked downstairs in a storeroom. Also, remember that the belongings
were actually lures to lead the girls to Tear, to be used as bait for
Rand.
Also, remember when Egwene tried to chase down 'Else Grinwell' after she
delivered her message? Egwene runs right into Lanfear, and asks if
she's seen Else Grinwell, and Lanfear answers -
TDR, 'Questions,' -
"'I do not thing you will catch up with her. I saw her, and she was
running quite fast. I suspect she is far away from here by now.'"
My first reaction was to think that Else Grinwell was Lanfear in
disguise, but I remember thinking that if that were true, then Lanfear's
answer seemed a bit odd.
But in LOC, 'Threads Woven of Shadow,' Graendal says -
"'Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it.
She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said
the same every time. She was sure Be'lal would kill or capture him in
Tear; she was very proud of that trap.'"
Using that info, it seems obvious that Else was actually Mesaana,
messing around in the Tower.
Now the second part - I also believe that Silvie was Mesaana, rather
than Lanfear. In TDR, 'Tel'aran'rhiod,' (I won't quote the whole thing,
since you can read it yourself,) Silvie tells Egwene about TAR, and
Callandor, and the Heart of the Stone, and with the knowledge that we
gained in LOC, it seems obvious that this is Mesaana, trying to lure
Egwene to Tear. I doubt that this is Lanfear, since she really wouldn't
care about meddling in other people's plots to capture Rand.
Steven
John Novak
>If you remember, in TDR, Else Grinwell came to Nynaeve, Elayne, and
>Egwene, to tell them that the belongings of Liandrin and her group were
>locked downstairs in a storeroom. Also, remember that the belongings
>were actually lures to lead the girls to Tear, to be used as bait for
>Rand.
Well, yeah.
Mesaana seems to have been party to Be'lal's plan to fuck Rand over in
Tear. An intimate part of that plan was getting the thirteen black
sisters to Tear, so Mesaana almost certainly was part of it.
Why, though, would Mesaana screw this up by sending the three little
hunters after her thirteen Black Ajah, by hitting them upside the head
with a cluebrick saying "Tear!! Tear, you idiots, Tear!!" No reason
at all that I can think of.
Lanfear, on the other hand, had every reason to send them along-- at
that point Lanfear doesn't want anyone killing her lover, and her
potential tool for challenging and supplanting the Dark One.
It goes like this, near as I can figure-- Be'lal wants thirteen Black
Ajah. He chats with Mesaana over who exactly is in charge over there,
and what the power structure is. One or both of them, in turn, have a
chat with Alviarin, telling her what is needed and leaving the details
up to her. Alviarin picks thirteen Black Ajah, lets them arrange the
raid, and tries to forget the whole thing.
Lanfear gets wind of this, and thinks, "No! They'll kill my obedient
little Lewsy Wewsy!" She plants clues about as subtle as a severed
head that point to Tear and makes sure the three girls know about
them. Off they go, hunting Blak Ajah. Callooh, callay. And as long
as she's in the neighborhood, she tries to turn Mat to the dark side
by tempting him with glory as well. Standard operating procedure.
Be'lal, in turn, gets wind of this. Possibly through Rahvin, who
wants Elayne dead so that his path to the throne of Andor is entirely
clear. Regardless, he figures it out, and turns the trap inside out,
catching the three girls and using them, in turn, as more and more
bait for Rand to follow. Insert evil cackle and moustache-twiddle
here as Be'lal ties them to a railroad track and waits for our hero in
the Red Jacket to arrive.
The wild card, Mat, fucks things up for everyone.
>Also, remember when Egwene tried to chase down 'Else Grinwell' after she
>delivered her message? Egwene runs right into Lanfear, and asks if
>she's seen Else Grinwell, and Lanfear answers -
She lied.
> "'Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it.
>She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said
>the same every time. She was sure Be'lal would kill or capture him in
>Tear; she was very proud of that trap.'"
Right.
Lews Therin.
The girls were irrelevant to that plan until they stumbled along, and
then they only sweetened the trap. Why would Mesaana point them to
Tear?
>Now the second part - I also believe that Silvie was Mesaana, rather
>than Lanfear. In TDR, 'Tel'aran'rhiod,' (I won't quote the whole thing,
>since you can read it yourself,) Silvie tells Egwene about TAR, and
>Callandor, and the Heart of the Stone, and with the knowledge that we
>gained in LOC, it seems obvious that this is Mesaana, trying to lure
>Egwene to Tear. I doubt that this is Lanfear, since she really wouldn't
>care about meddling in other people's plots to capture Rand.
Oh, yes she _would_.
Not only is she mentioned very derogatorily at one point as always
being willing to meddle in someone else's plots, she doesn't want Rand
dead at that point.
Sending the girls there was her idea of help.
She just fucked it up is all.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
huisman
John Novak wrote:
:
: In <8luwBii00iWZQ4B=x...@andrew.cmu.edu> Sok-Hyon Kang
:
:>If you remember, in TDR, Else Grinwell came to Nynaeve, Elayne, and
:>Egwene, to tell them that the belongings of Liandrin and her group were
:>locked downstairs in a storeroom. Also, remember that the belongings
:>were actually lures to lead the girls to Tear, to be used as bait for
:>Rand.
:
: Well, yeah.
: Mesaana seems to have been party to Be'lal's plan to fuck Rand over in
: Tear. An intimate part of that plan was getting the thirteen black
: sisters to Tear, so Mesaana almost certainly was part of it.
:
: Why, though, would Mesaana screw this up by sending the three little
: hunters after her thirteen Black Ajah, by hitting them upside the head
: with a cluebrick saying "Tear!! Tear, you idiots, Tear!!" No reason
: at all that I can think of.
The capturing of the girls was part of the plan of Belal. He wanted to
use them as a kind of bait or hostages to get Rand to give up and hand
him Callandor. IIRC, Belal says something like this when Rand is holding
or looking at the shiny sword. Apparently, Rhavin feels this would mess
up his plans and orderd them killed, which sends Mat the wild card in to
save them.
--
And furthermore I do not believe that Taim is Demandred
Hans Huisman
WAU, Dept. of Soil Science and Geology
hans.h...@aio.beng.wau.nl
Alison Mitchell
On 17 Jul 1996 00:41:44 -0500, j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak)
wrote:
>Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
>quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
>store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
>and Aviendha.
My guess is that her plan involved toasting/Compelling them with the
monster sa'angreal.......
John Novak
>>Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
>>quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
>>store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
>>and Aviendha.
>My guess is that her plan involved toasting/Compelling them with the
>monster sa'angreal.......
I'm not convinced Lanfear knew that one still existed, for women.
John Novak
>The capturing of the girls was part of the plan of Belal. He wanted to
>use them as a kind of bait or hostages to get Rand to give up and hand
>him Callandor. IIRC, Belal says something like this when Rand is holding
>or looking at the shiny sword.
They're fairly irrelevent, though, until they actually show up on the
scene. Rand is making his way across the continent to Tear well
before the girls even think about leaving Tar Valon. Hell, Rand was
on his way to Tear before the girls even arrived back in Tar Valon
from their first ill-considered excursion to Falme.
They're just icing on the cake, and an example of the way the Forsaken
fight each other-- through proxies, by fucking up each others' plans.
In this case, Lanfear trying to mess with Be'lal while Be'lal is
driving Ishamael nuts, and then Be'lal turning Lanfear's machinations
against her, at the same time he and Rahvin are arguing about
Elayne...
Except for that one trifling detail (getting balefired and all) Be'lal
came off looking pretty good.
Sok-Hyon Kang
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 17-Jul-96 Re:
Silvie and Else Grinwell by John No...@cegt201.bradl
> In <clv6RtK00iVEE=NS...@andrew.cmu.edu> Sok-Hyon Kang
<gn...@andrew.cmu.edu> writ
> es:
>
> >Except possibly that Mesaana knew what value Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve
> >had to Rand, and used them herself to sweeten the bait. Liandrin and
> >the others seemed to be expecting the girls. Somehow, they knew.
>
> Well, yeah.
> Mesaana told Be'lal, when she noticed that the three bright stars of
> the Tower were missing _again_, they did a little investigating, and Be'lal
> told the thirteen sisters.
>
> >Ahh. I think I actually like this explanation more than mine,
>
> Of course you do.
>
> >but
> >Lanfear being that helpful seems rather doubtful.
>
> <Shrug>
> This is the same Lanfear who played with Rand in tGH, getting him used
> to channeling. This is the same Lanfear that set up Asmodean as a
> patsy to train Rand.
>
> Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
> quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
> store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
> and Aviendha.
The thing is, I'm not sure that Lanfear would be all too happy to send a
gaggle of women, two of whom are potential love interests for Rand, to
Tear to help him out.
Also, she doesn't really regard Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve as very
heavy-hitters. If she really wanted to help Rand, wouldn't she have
sent something she regards as more substantial, like Shadowspawn?
This is where I have a problem with your theory. I can see that Lanfear
would have sent the three girls to Tear, but perhaps it was just to get
rid of them, rather than send Rand some help.
Steven
Brian D. Ritchie
In article <4sja36$e...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
John Novak <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>In <31ec95fa...@news.usa.pipeline.com>,
>ali...@hotmail.com (Alison Mitchell) writes:
>>>Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
>>>quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
>>>store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
>>>and Aviendha.
>>My guess is that her plan involved toasting/Compelling them with the
>>monster sa'angreal.......
>I'm not convinced Lanfear knew that one still existed, for women.
(TSR, The Traps of Rhuidean, 58, 883) Lanfear says the following to Rand
when he and Asmodean are done fighting and she sees him holding the small
statue ter'angreal.
"So that is what he was after. I thought they were all destroyed. Only
half remains of the single one I have seen; a fine trap for some unwary
Aes Sedai."
When was Lanfear in Tanchico, and why? If it's in the books, I certainly
don't remember it.
--
Brian Ritchie
br...@prism.gatech.edu
Sok-Hyon Kang
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 16-Jul-96 Re:
Silvie and Else Grinwell by John No...@cegt201.bradl
<gn...@andrew.cmu.edu> writ
> es:
>
> >Egwene, to tell them that the belongings of Liandrin and her group were
> >locked downstairs in a storeroom. Also, remember that the belongings
> >were actually lures to lead the girls to Tear, to be used as bait for
> >Rand.
>
> Well, yeah.
> Mesaana seems to have been party to Be'lal's plan to fuck Rand over in
> Tear. An intimate part of that plan was getting the thirteen black
> sisters to Tear, so Mesaana almost certainly was part of it.
>
> Why, though, would Mesaana screw this up by sending the three little
> hunters after her thirteen Black Ajah, by hitting them upside the head
> with a cluebrick saying "Tear!! Tear, you idiots, Tear!!" No reason
> at all that I can think of.
Except possibly that Mesaana knew what value Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve
had to Rand, and used them herself to sweeten the bait. Liandrin and
the others seemed to be expecting the girls. Somehow, they knew.
> Lanfear, on the other hand, had every reason to send them along-- at
> that point Lanfear doesn't want anyone killing her lover, and her
> potential tool for challenging and supplanting the Dark One.
>
> It goes like this, near as I can figure-- Be'lal wants thirteen Black
> Ajah. He chats with Mesaana over who exactly is in charge over there,
> and what the power structure is. One or both of them, in turn, have a
> chat with Alviarin, telling her what is needed and leaving the details
> up to her. Alviarin picks thirteen Black Ajah, lets them arrange the
> raid, and tries to forget the whole thing.
>
> Lanfear gets wind of this, and thinks, "No! They'll kill my obedient
> little Lewsy Wewsy!" She plants clues about as subtle as a severed
> head that point to Tear and makes sure the three girls know about
> them. Off they go, hunting Blak Ajah. Callooh, callay. And as long
> as she's in the neighborhood, she tries to turn Mat to the dark side
> by tempting him with glory as well. Standard operating procedure.
>
> Be'lal, in turn, gets wind of this. Possibly through Rahvin, who
> wants Elayne dead so that his path to the throne of Andor is entirely
> clear. Regardless, he figures it out, and turns the trap inside out,
> catching the three girls and using them, in turn, as more and more
> bait for Rand to follow. Insert evil cackle and moustache-twiddle
> here as Be'lal ties them to a railroad track and waits for our hero in
> the Red Jacket to arrive.
Ahh. I think I actually like this explanation more than mine, but
Lanfear being that helpful seems rather doubtful.
> The wild card, Mat, fucks things up for everyone.
>
> >Also, remember when Egwene tried to chase down 'Else Grinwell' after she
> >delivered her message? Egwene runs right into Lanfear, and asks if
> >she's seen Else Grinwell, and Lanfear answers -
>
> She lied.
Thank you John.
What I meant was that the quote could be that Lanfear was referring to
Mesaana, whom she recognized.
> > "'Mesaana in particular was annoyed, though she tried to hide it.
> >She thinks Lews Therin soon will be in our hands, but then she has said
> >the same every time. She was sure Be'lal would kill or capture him in
> >Tear; she was very proud of that trap.'"
>
> Right.
> Lews Therin.
>
> The girls were irrelevant to that plan until they stumbled along, and
> then they only sweetened the trap. Why would Mesaana point them to
> Tear?
>
> >Now the second part - I also believe that Silvie was Mesaana, rather
> >than Lanfear. In TDR, 'Tel'aran'rhiod,' (I won't quote the whole thing,
> >since you can read it yourself,) Silvie tells Egwene about TAR, and
> >Callandor, and the Heart of the Stone, and with the knowledge that we
> >gained in LOC, it seems obvious that this is Mesaana, trying to lure
> >Egwene to Tear. I doubt that this is Lanfear, since she really wouldn't
> >care about meddling in other people's plots to capture Rand.
>
> Oh, yes she _would_.
> Not only is she mentioned very derogatorily at one point as always
> being willing to meddle in someone else's plots, she doesn't want Rand
> dead at that point.
That's what I meant. Perhaps I used the word meddling wrong. I meant
that I doubted Lanfear would want a plan to destroy Rand to succeed.
> Sending the girls there was her idea of help.
Maybe.
> She just fucked it up is all.
I think I like your take on the matter a little more than mine; it
answers the questions I had more efficiently. There are still some
doubts, though.
Steven
John Novak
>Except possibly that Mesaana knew what value Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve
>had to Rand, and used them herself to sweeten the bait. Liandrin and
>the others seemed to be expecting the girls. Somehow, they knew.
Well, yeah.
Mesaana told Be'lal, when she noticed that the three bright stars of
the Tower were missing _again_, they did a little investigating, and Be'lal
told the thirteen sisters.
>Ahh. I think I actually like this explanation more than mine,
Of course you do.
>but
>Lanfear being that helpful seems rather doubtful.
<Shrug>
This is the same Lanfear who played with Rand in tGH, getting him used
to channeling. This is the same Lanfear that set up Asmodean as a
patsy to train Rand.
Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
and Aviendha.
>> She lied.
>Thank you John.
Not at all.
That's what I'm here for.
>What I meant was that the quote could be that Lanfear was referring to
>Mesaana, whom she recognized.
Could be.
But I tend to doubt it.
John Novak
In <4sk1pn$9...@gondor.sdsu.edu> wei...@rohan.sdsu.edu (weikel) writes:
>1) Why send three girls? Even given their relative strength,
>they are no match for thirteen full sister not bound by the
>oaths.
Well, technically, Siuan sent the three girls hunting after the Black
Ajah, so you might well ask the same question. And get the same
answer-- they're the best tools in the Tower. Since they were going
to look for the Black Ajah anyway, Lanfear just gave them a major clue
or two.
> Lanfear is probably clever enough to think of a better
>distraction (like an army of trollocs maybe?) If the BA had
>wanted the three girls dead, the three would be dead now. The BA
>wanted them as bait for a trap, there are plenty of clues which
>indicate that the girls were expected.
Like I've been saying, when it was discovered that the girls were on
their way, Be'lal changed his plans. I say, yet again, that Rand was
on the way to Tear well before the girls ever got back into Tar Valon,
much less before Siuan set them to hunting the Black Ajah, much less
before they were given such massive clues pointing to Tear.
>2) If Lanfear knew enough about Egwene to desire her aid, why did
>she not recognize her in the Waste? Why did she think that she
>might be Avi? Had Lanfear known of Egwene's relationship to Rand,
>Avi would have been balefired to restore Rand virginity.
How the hell should _I_ know?
She was in psychobitch from Hell mode, I dunno.
This question is not limited to the "Is Lanfear Else?" question,
because Egwene was the one who went chasing after Else and Egwene is
the one who stood face to face with an undisguised Lanfear in a
corridor of the White Tower. Unless you don't think the statuesque,
raven-haired woman in white with a silver belt was Lanfear.
It's vaguely possible that Else was Mesaana, but I tend to doubt it.
I just don't see the need for Be'lal to draw the girls to Tear, when
Rand is already demonstrably moving to Tear without said inducement.
I don't see how sending the girls there could have been part of
Be'lal's and Mesaana's plan, when it all hinged on Siuan doing
something unconventional like sending three Accepted on their way,
chasing Black Ajah.
And I don't see what the point of encountering Lanfear in that place,
at that time would have been. She provided no real information, she
gave no clues, unless her presence is a clue to _us_ that she is
present in the White Tower. But we already knew that, because she was
messing with Mat. So why put Lanfear in that place at that time? Why
would Lanfear be standing right where Mesaana ran past in disguise?
Makes no sense.
Mark Loy
In article <4sjaac$e...@cegt201.bradley.edu>, j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John
Novak) wrote:
> Except for that one trifling detail (getting balefired and all) Be'lal
> came off looking pretty good.
Isn't this sort of like saying...except for that one trifling detail (being
decimated by an a-bomb) Hiroshima came out looking pretty good.
Mark "understatement can be habit forming" Loy
John Novak
>The thing is, I'm not sure that Lanfear would be all too happy to send a
>gaggle of women, two of whom are potential love interests for Rand, to
>Tear to help him out.
Did Lanfear know that Elayne or Egwene were potential love interests
for Rand at that point? How could she possibly know that?
>Also, she doesn't really regard Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve as very
>heavy-hitters. If she really wanted to help Rand, wouldn't she have
>sent something she regards as more substantial, like Shadowspawn?
Compared to other Aes Sedai? They are heavy hitters. And I'm hard
pressed to think of a single instance where Lanfear ever stooped to
using shadowspawn. Grolm, yes. Spawn? No.
Revenant
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>In <31ec95fa...@news.usa.pipeline.com> ali...@hotmail.com (Alison Mitchell) writes:
>>>Remember, before she finds out he went after Aviendha, Lanfear was
>>>quite a bit on Rand's side. God only knows what evil plan she had in
>>>store for Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin, before she learned about Rand
>>>and Aviendha.
>>My guess is that her plan involved toasting/Compelling them with the
>>monster sa'angreal.......
>I'm not convinced Lanfear knew that one still existed, for women.
You should not be. Lanfear herself states she thought they were all
destroyed. Both kinds.
(tSR "The Traps of Rhuidean" p. 675 hb)
-Bret C. Rediker (http://www.realtime.net/~revenant/sherlock.html)
"It is a question of cubic capacity. A man with
so large a brain must have something in it." (BLUE)
weikel
John Novak (j...@cegt201.bradley.edu) wrote:
: In <8luwBii00iWZQ4B=x...@andrew.cmu.edu> Sok-Hyon Kang <gn...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
: Not only is she mentioned very derogatorily at one point as always
: being willing to meddle in someone else's plots, she doesn't want Rand
: dead at that point.
: Sending the girls there was her idea of help.
: She just fucked it up is all.
Okay, Mr. Know-it-all. Answer me two questions and I may start
to believe your theory.
1) Why send three girls? Even given their relative strength,
they are no match for thirteen full sister not bound by the
oaths. Lanfear is probably clever enough to think of a better
distraction (like an army of trollocs maybe?) If the BA had
wanted the three girls dead, the three would be dead now. The BA
wanted them as bait for a trap, there are plenty of clues which
indicate that the girls were expected.
2) If Lanfear knew enough about Egwene to desire her aid, why did
she not recognize her in the Waste? Why did she think that she
might be Avi? Had Lanfear known of Egwene's relationship to Rand,
Avi would have been balefired to restore Rand virginity.
I thought it was Lanfear too, but at the time I thought she was the
only female forsaken.
Sok-Hyon Kang
Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan: 17-Jul-96 Re:
Silvie and Else Grinwell by John No...@cegt201.bradl
<gn...@andrew.cmu.edu> writ
> es:
>
> >gaggle of women, two of whom are potential love interests for Rand, to
> >Tear to help him out.
>
> Did Lanfear know that Elayne or Egwene were potential love interests
> for Rand at that point? How could she possibly know that?
OK.
> >Also, she doesn't really regard Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve as very
> >heavy-hitters. If she really wanted to help Rand, wouldn't she have
> >sent something she regards as more substantial, like Shadowspawn?
>
> Compared to other Aes Sedai? They are heavy hitters. And I'm hard
> pressed to think of a single instance where Lanfear ever stooped to
> using shadowspawn. Grolm, yes. Spawn? No.
Yes, but I'm pretty sure that Lanfear, as a Forsaken, must have used
Shadowspawn or some other servants of the DO before. She must have had
better options than what she regards as a group of untrained girls,
however potentially strong they are.
Steven
David DeLaney
Sok-Hyon Kang <gn...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>John No...@cegt201.bradl
>> little Lewsy Wewsy!" She plants clues about as subtle as a severed
>> head that point to Tear and makes sure the three girls know about
>> them. Off they go, hunting Blak Ajah. Callooh, callay. And as long
>> as she's in the neighborhood, she tries to turn Mat to the dark side
>> by tempting him with glory as well. Standard operating procedure.
>
>Lanfear being that helpful seems rather doubtful.
Lanfear wasn't trying to be "helpful"; she just didn't want the other bad nasty
Forsaken to kill off loverboy before _she_ could Bind him Forever and Ever.
_And_ as John notes, her sense of subtlety seems to be on a level with that
of Dennis the Menace; she may have thought she was being quietly manipulative
and that the so-called Aes Sedai would never see through her little plot.
Remember, this was rather before Forsaken [except the two who are _already_
back in action] started falling by the wayside like Autumn Leaves...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Paul Khangure
In an Age long past, an Age yet to come, John Novak wrote:
: Lanfear gets wind of this, and thinks, "No! They'll kill my obedient
: little Lewsy Wewsy!" She plants clues about as subtle as a severed
: head that point to Tear and makes sure the three girls know about
: them. Off they go, hunting Blak Ajah. Callooh, callay. And as long
Yeah, but she could have left much more subtle clues if she'd wanted.
IMO, she deliberately made it so obvious, so as to keep the 3 girls on
their toes, and suspecting a trap. They would be more effective if they
expected the BA to be searching for them, than if they went along, sure
that the BA wasn't expecting anyone to follow.
: Sending the girls there was her idea of help.
: She just fucked it up is all.
No, she prepared them as best she possible could without telling them
straight, and then the 3 fucked up, by over estimating Juilan, or
under estimating the BA, or both.
Paul "Moridin" Khangure
--
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
p...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au http://www.uwa.edu.au/student/prk/
It is unsporting to engage in a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.
If you can lay on the floor without holding on then you're not drunk.
Craig Moe <Schwanda!>
John Novak (j...@cegt201.bradley.edu) wrote:
: In <31ED2B...@aio.beng.wau.nl> huisman <hans.h...@aio.beng.wau.nl>
writes:
: >The capturing of the girls was part of the plan of Belal. He wanted to
: >use them as a kind of bait or hostages to get Rand to give up and hand
: >him Callandor. IIRC, Belal says something like this when Rand is holding
: >or looking at the shiny sword.
: They're fairly irrelevent, though, until they actually show up on the
: scene. Rand is making his way across the continent to Tear well
: before the girls even think about leaving Tar Valon. Hell, Rand was
: on his way to Tear before the girls even arrived back in Tar Valon
: from their first ill-considered excursion to Falme.
Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our valiant
heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
Moiraine's room. Are you saying they were just lounging around in the
Stone of Tear when up walks Julian Sandar, and one compusled
theif-catcher later, they decide to drastically alter a carefully laid
plan?
Craig Moe, .sigless.
Nco
cgm...@email.unc.edu (Craig Moe <Schwanda!>) wrote:
>Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
>Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our valiant
>heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
>begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
>Moiraine's room. Are you saying they were just lounging around in the
>Stone of Tear when up walks Julian Sandar, and one compusled
>theif-catcher later, they decide to drastically alter a carefully laid
>plan?
No but thirteen BA linked, shielding Rand, makes it a hell of a lot easier
for Be'lal to take Callandor rather than trying to overpower him face to
face unaided (such an unaidead attempt is tantamount to suicide)
HTH
John Novak
>Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
>Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our valiant
>heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
>begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
>Moiraine's room.
Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
Rob Bowell
In article <4tj9ph$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>In <4thii2$f...@newz.oit.unc.edu> cgm...@email.unc.edu (Craig Moe
<Schwanda!>) writes:
>
>>Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
>>Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our valiant
>>heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
>>begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
>>Moiraine's room.
>
>Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
>help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
>
Y'obt.,
Rob Bowell
***********************************************************************
Life is the crummiest book I ever read
there isn't a hook, just a lot of cheap shots
pictures to shock and characters an amatuer
would never think up. . . .
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
--Brett Guerwitz of Bad Religion, "Stranger than Fiction"
***********************************************************************
Andrea Lynn Leistra
In article <4tjfij$9...@news.monmouth.com>,
Rob Bowell <rbo...@monmouth.com> wrote:
>In article <4tj9ph$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
> j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>>Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
>>help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
> Stilling and gentling.
Free Clue #1: Novak knows the answer to his question.
Free Clue #2: You apparently don't. The answer is: "turn a channeler to
the DO; overpower (ie shield, gentle, etc) any male channeler". HTH.
--
Andrea Leistra http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~aleistra
-----
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
Bryan Ecker
In article <4tjfij$9...@news.monmouth.com>,
rbo...@monmouth.com (Rob Bowell) wrote:
>In article <4tj9ph$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
> j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>>Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
>>help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
>>
> Stilling and gentling.
Forcing a fourteenth Channeler over to the shadow. (Does it count if you have
to use Fades as Ter'angreal?)
--bryan ecker
"A great many people mistake opinions for thought.'
--Herbert V. Prochnow
KDow2056
>In <4thii2$f...@newz.oit.unc.edu> cgm...@email.unc.edu (Craig Moe
><Schwanda!>) writes:
>
>>Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
>>Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our
valiant
>>heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
>>begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
>>Moiraine's room.
>
>Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
>help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
Can thirteen AS shield Rand if he has Callandor?
---
Kdow...@aol.com
The best of all two thousand fifty-six Kdow's on Aol,
Well at least in the top 10 percent.
Craig Moe <Schwanda!>
[my question as to why there were 13 Black Ajah in Tear munched]
John Novak (j...@cegt201.bradley.edu) wrote:
: Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
: help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
So are you suggesting that Be'lal told these 13, "On second thought,
forget that crazy shield LTT Reborn idea; you baby-sit three Accepted,
while I try to take the second most powerful sa'angreal in existence away
from the guy who's defeated Ishy twice?"
Craig Moe, .sigless
Jess A Hyden Jr
Andrea Lynn Leistra <alei...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote in article
<4tk30s$s...@elaine32.Stanford.EDU>...
> In article <4tjfij$9...@news.monmouth.com>,
> Rob Bowell <rbo...@monmouth.com> wrote:
> >In article <4tj9ph$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
> > j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>
> >>Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
> >>help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
>
> > Stilling and gentling.
>
> Free Clue #1: Novak knows the answer to his question.
> Free Clue #2: You apparently don't. The answer is: "turn a channeler
to
> the DO; overpower (ie shield, gentle, etc) any male channeler". HTH.
>
Damn, I thought it was screw in a lightbulb.
Path
Chris Byler
KDow2056 (kdow...@aol.com) wrote:
> In article <4tj9ph$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu>, j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John
> >In <4thii2$f...@newz.oit.unc.edu> cgm...@email.unc.edu (Craig Moe
> ><Schwanda!>) writes:
> >
> >>Speaking of irrelevency, if, as the majority thinks, Mesaana sent
> >>Liandrin's 13 to Tear to help Be'lal's trap, and Lanfear sent our
> valiant
> >>heroes in to muck said trap up, exactly why are Liandrin et al there to
> >>begin with? It doesn't take 13 people to put a wooden hedgehog in
> >>Moiraine's room.
> >
> >Name at least two things that thirteen Aes Sedai can do (with or with
> >help from outside) that twelve Aes Sedai can't.
> Can thirteen AS shield Rand if he has Callandor?
Thirteen AS, if they have access to Myrddraal, can bind a channeler to the DO.
Also, thirteen AS have *much, much* more strength linked that individually.
Nyn is half as strong as ten AS with a sa'angreal, and Nyn is not nearly as
strong as Rand (Nyn is equal to weaker Forsaken, Rand surpasses, if barely,
any Forsaken), but 13 AS with no angreal can shield Rand even if he is already
holding saidin (at least, that is *claimed*).
Chris
Jeffery Que Hales
>Damn, I thought it was screw in a lightbulb.
>Path
No, its two flies that screw in a lightbulb...
the question is how they got in there...
Q
Andrew Toth
On Aug 03, 1996 14:26:54 in article <Re: Silvie and Else Grinwell>,
Q:How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A:That's not funny.
--
Beyowulf
Beyo...@pipeline.com
Steely Blue Dragon Of The -==(UDIC)==-
Save the Veals!
Thomas Howard
On 4 Aug 1996 03:24:52 GMT, Beyo...@usa.pipeline.com(Andrew Toth)
wrote:
>On Aug 03, 1996 14:26:54 in article <Re: Silvie and Else Grinwell>,
>'Sjs...@indirect.com (Jeffery Que Hales)' wrote:
>
>
>>>Damn, I thought it was screw in a lightbulb.
>>>Path
>>
>>No, its two flies that screw in a lightbulb...
>>the question is how they got in there...
>
>Speaking of which...Have you heard this one?
>
>Q:How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
>A:That's not funny.
lol!
I hadn't heard that one yet.
How 'bout this one:
Q: How many snowboarders does it take to screw in a ligh bulb?
A: 5. One to screw in the bulb, and four to say "Yah, dude!"
Thomas Howard
Alison Mitchell
On 2 Aug 1996 17:28:17 GMT, cby...@dsu.seas.ucla.edu (Chris Byler)
wrote:
>Thirteen AS, if they have access to Myrddraal, can bind a channeler to the DO.
>Also, thirteen AS have *much, much* more strength linked that individually.
>Nyn is half as strong as ten AS with a sa'angreal, and Nyn is not nearly as
>strong as Rand (Nyn is equal to weaker Forsaken, Rand surpasses, if barely,
>any Forsaken), but 13 AS with no angreal can shield Rand even if he is already
>holding saidin (at least, that is *claimed*).
Which would seem to imply that a massive exponential increase in power
occurs between the circle of ten and the circle of thirteen. BTW,
those were probably ten of the strongest women in the Tower wielding
what would appear to be the most powerful sa'angreal in the Tower
(i.e., _one_ strong AS could level the Shining Walls with it) yet the
thirteen weakest sisters, according to Asmodean, could shield Rand and
"barely be breathing hard". Two women linked are weaker than the sum
of their individual strengths but stronger than a man of comparable
strength, men being on average stronger in the OP than women (lamest
thing in the series).
CClagett
In article <4u1564$i...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>,
Beyo...@usa.pipeline.com(Andrew Toth) writes:
>
>Speaking of which...Have you heard this one?
>
>Q:How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
>A:That's not funny.
Q: How many "Call of Chthulu" PCs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: All of them. Never split the party!!!!
Matthew Malthouse
When I read the 'thirteen weakest sisters' I assumed that the
circle of 13 had special properties, not that it just had more
strenght. Several times it has been mentioned that linking
does NOT equal the strenth of the individual added together.
the advantages lying in the precision with which the OP can be
used and so on.
Haven't books (am @work), but can anyone cite to show that my
assumption was right, reasonable but unprovable, unlikely or
just plain wrong?
Matthew
--
My boss said homosexuality was a disease, so
I called in queer to work...
Sophie Dixon-Box
Matthew Malthouse <matthew....@guardian.co.uk> wrote:
>When I read the 'thirteen weakest sisters' I assumed that the
>circle of 13 had special properties, not that it just had more
>strenght. Several times it has been mentioned that linking
>does NOT equal the strenth of the individual added together.
>the advantages lying in the precision with which the OP can be
>used and so on.
>Haven't books (am @work), but can anyone cite to show that my
>assumption was right, reasonable but unprovable, unlikely or
>just plain wrong?
>Matthew
>--
>My boss said homosexuality was a disease, so
>I called in queer to work...
I can't prove or disprove this theory, but one thing I can add is that
when the bubble of evil arrived in Salidar (LoC, Dreams and
Nightmares, p316) Anaiya seemed to pick Accepted for her circle before
moving on to novices. This may have been to increase the wattage, but
I can't tell whether or not the circle was of 13 women or fewer, so
this info is probably useless. Nevermind.....
Sophie