[TAN] Suggestions on new reading
Erin O'Toole
genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
other paragraph (Read: Goodkind). After wallowing through the drek of
that hack's writing, and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
where to start. I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
Any help about these guys, or anyone other the O.S. Card, would be
most appreciative.
Etherman
"Erin O'Toole" <edgel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dc690972.01121...@posting.google.com...
Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
--
Etherman
AA # pi
EAC Director of Ritual Satanic Abuse Operations
AMTCode(v2): [Poster][TÆ][A5][Lx][Sx][Bx][FD][P-][CC]
P. Korda
Etherman <ether...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
>Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
>only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
>underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
*Raises hand*
I thought it[1] was boring. Needed more frozen zombies, or something.
But, I freely admit that I really don't have what it takes to read
incomplete multi-volume fantasy epics, these days.
-pam
[1] _A Game of Thrones_. I haven't bothered to try the rest.
Rimrunner
>Any help about these guys, or anyone other the O.S. Card, would be
>most appreciative.
I'm most of the way through R. Garcia y Robertson's new one, "Knight
Errant", and really enjoying it. I hated the first few chapters, but once
it gets going and the plot moves to 15th-century England (Robertson is a
former history professor), it's great.
For extra-special fun, read in conjunction with Martin's series, since
"Knight Errant" takes place during the same historical period on which
Martin's plot is (loosely) based, is more romantic, and (so far) less
bloody (the fact that so far we have a hanging, several jousts, and one
sea battle says something about Martin). And keep a good history of the
Wars of the Roses by you.
Just released, so it's in hardback, but my library had it.
-g,
3.5 hours to lord of the rings!
--
Murder of Crows @ http://www.murderofcrows.net
NEXT SHOW: Sat Dec 29 @ Planet Hotrod, Tacoma, WA
WORDS FOR SALE: http://www.drizzle.com/~rimrun/words.html
"An artist's expression is his soul made apparent." -- Bruce Lee
P. Korda
>genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
>to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
>versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
>other paragraph (Read: Goodkind). After wallowing through the drek of
>that hack's writing, and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
>Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
>buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
>where to start.
Kate's suggested _Small Gods_ as a good place to start with Pratchett,
and I can't argue with it. Although, _Hogfather_ might be more
appropriate, this time of year. Although some of his books are
connected (he's got several sub-series, dealing with groups of
characters), they're all complete stories in and of themselves, so you
could just go to the store and pick whichever one sounds most
interesting.
>I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
>(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
The first book in his Long, Unfinished Series of Very Thick Books is
_A Game of Thrones_. A lot of people like it.
>Any help about these guys, or anyone other the O.S. Card, would be
>most appreciative.
I get the feeling that you might be looking for something a little
different than the usual Epic Fantasy, so I'll make some suggestions
in that vein (although they are all pretty standard recommendations on
this group):
Steven Brust. I like all his books, his "Vlad Taltos" series is most
popular (everybody besides Thor likes it). There is an omnibus edition
of the first 3 novels, called _The Book of Jhereg_, or something like
that. Good fun.
Guy Gavriel Kay. Heftier and more literary than most fantasy dudes,
lots of people cite him as the best modern fantasy author. _Tigana_ is
very good, and not part of a series, which is a bonus.
Tim Powers. Both of the books of his that I've read are set in the
"real world," although enough crazy, weird shit happens that they
definitely qualify as fantasy. _Last Call_ is about the Fisher King in
Las Vegas. _The Anubis Gates_ is about time travel, ancient Egypt, and
Romantic poets.
Roger Zelazny. Most famous for his "Amber" series (now available in
big, omnibus volume). Other good books of his are _Lord of Light_, _A
Night in the Lonesome October_, and _Creatures of Light and
Darkness_. The first is in print, the last is not, and I am not sure
about the second.
Not fantasy, but if you like space opera, you can hardly go wrong with
Lois Bujold's "Vorkosigan" series. Good, fun, adventure with (mostly)
likeable characters, and each novel is a complete story in and of
itself. Again, you can pretty much start with any of the novels in the
series, just pick one that sounds interesting.
Or, you could just go see the _The Fellowship of the Ring_ movie....
-pam
John S. Novak, III
> Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
> underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Karl-Johan Norén
> Was reading threads concerning other writers of this wildly creative
> genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
> to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
> versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
> other paragraph (Read: Goodkind).
Drat. I thought you were speaking of Jordan (the world's only
author of homeopathic literature!).
> After wallowing through the drek of
> that hack's writing, and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
> Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
> buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
> where to start.
Good starting points would be:
_Small Gods_, as Pam mentioned. It's one of the one-shots in
Pratchett's Discworld series, in that it doesn't tie in to any
of the sequences (the Witches, the Rincewind, the Death and the
Watch).
_Guards, Guards_ is the starting books of the Watch sequence,
and especially good if you like mysteries or police procedurals.
_The Truth_ ties in with the Watch books, but stands pretty free
from them.
Other authors to recommend are:
Robin Hobb, with _Assassin's Apprentice_ and sequels, and
_Ship of Magic_ and sequels (both series are finished). The
Assassin's series is very gloomy and depressing fantasy, but
very well-written. The Ship books are more conventional, but
still quite original.
Ursula K LeGuin's _Earthsea_ trilogy (usually available in
omnibus volumes nowadays). A truly classic fantasy. There have
been late sequels: _Tehanu_ you either like very much or hate
(I liked it), and LeGuin has followed up with a few short
stories and a novel now as well. My impression is though that
her storytelling as of now has been diminished.
_The Long Ships_ by Frans G. Bengtsson is probably the best
historical adventure novel ever written. 'nuff said.
Otherwise I agree pretty much with Pam's suggestions.
--
Karl-Johan Norén -- k...@bredband.net
<http://hem.passagen.se/kjnoren/>
- To believe people are as stupid as one believe
is stupider than one can believe
Maggie
> In article <7n8U7.25833$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Etherman wrote:
>
> > Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> > Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> > only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
> > underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
>
> It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
> poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
Funny, I just had this same discussion with Kenn recently, and said
practically the same thing.
He thinks I'm insane.
--
Maggie UIN 10248195 http://www.darkfriends.net
"Shadow found himself thinking about a garage in San Clemente with box
after box of rare, strange and beautiful books in it rotting away, all
of them browning and wilting and being eaten by mold and insects in the
darkness, waiting for someone who would never come to set them free."
- Neil Gaiman, cut from _American Gods_
Mike Kozlowski
Maggie <maggie...@darkfriends.net> wrote:
>John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> quietly murmured:
[George Martin]
>> It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
>> poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
>
>Funny, I just had this same discussion with Kenn recently, and said
>practically the same thing.
>
>He thinks I'm insane.
That's because you are. And Novak is. And Pam, too.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Dave Rothgery
And me, but y'all already knew that.
--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drot...@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com
Etherman
"P. Korda" <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:0H8U7.12$s4....@news.uchicago.edu...
> In article <7n8U7.25833$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
> Etherman <ether...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> >Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> >only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul
language,
> >underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
>
> *Raises hand*
>
> I thought it[1] was boring. Needed more frozen zombies, or
something.
There are more later in the series.
Etherman
"John S. Novak, III" <j...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:9vr9cb$h3nv1$1...@ID-100778.news.dfncis.de...
> In article <7n8U7.25833$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
Etherman wrote:
>
> > Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> > Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> > only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul
language,
> > underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
>
> It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing
style
> poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
Flat characters??? Are we talking about the same series?
Kate Nepveu
> I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
> buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
> where to start.
The rec.arts.sf.written FAQ has a list;
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/written-faq/
_Small Gods_, _Hogfather_, _Lords and Ladies_, or _Men at Arms_ would
be my suggestions.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
John S. Novak, III
> Flat characters??? Are we talking about the same series?
Everything about those characters shrieks to me that the *author*
thinks he's writing deep, meaningsul, three-dimensional characters who
speak to the nature of man and his relationship to the Cosmic All.
That he's not, is flaw enough.
But that he really believes he is just makes it worse, somehow.
Not unlike _Metaplanetary_ in that respect.
Kenneth G. Cavness
Maggie <maggie...@darkfriends.net> wrote...
> John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> quietly murmured:
> > In article <7n8U7.25833$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Etherman wrote:
> >
> > > Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> > > Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> > > only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
> > > underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
> >
> > It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
> > poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
>
> Funny, I just had this same discussion with Kenn recently, and said
> practically the same thing.
"Recently" does *not* apparently mean the same thing to you as it does
to me...
--
Kenneth G. Cavness
http://stargoat.dynip.com/ <-- Site down for now.
ICQ: 3504847, AIM: kcavness2, Email: kcav...@proxicom.com
P. Korda
*shrug* Tastes vary, y'know?
And really, I definitely didn't dislike _A Game of Thrones_ the way
Novak did. It just didn't work for me. The plot didn't move along
quickly enough (really, I think that Martin made a tactical error
starting the book out with the zombies-- it gave me false
expectations), and I didn't care about most of the characters. And
while the prose is quite competant, you must admit that it's
not the sort that inspires one to read for the sheer pleasure of how
the author fits words together.
If that makes me insane, so be it, but not reading Martin's great big
books means that I have time to read stuff like _The Anubis Gates_ and
_The Thurb Revolution_, both of which are much more in keeping with my
present tastes, so I really don't feel like I'm missing anything.
-pam
Maggie
I'm in good company then, at the very least.
Not a bad thing, insanity.
David Scotton
> John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> quietly murmured:
<ASOIAF>
> > It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
> > poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
>
> Funny, I just had this same discussion with Kenn recently, and said
> practically the same thing.
>
> He thinks I'm insane.
Well, you didn't give it much of a chance. Didn't you say you only
read 30 pages?
--
David K. Scotton <dsco...@darkfriends.net> | UIN:3595734
"I don't embrace depravity as much as I dry hump it."
-Mark Loy
Maggie
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:52:51 GMT, maggie...@darkfriends.net said:
> > John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> quietly murmured:
>
> <ASOIAF>
> > > It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
> > > poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
> >
> > Funny, I just had this same discussion with Kenn recently, and said
> > practically the same thing.
> >
> > He thinks I'm insane.
>
> Well, you didn't give it much of a chance. Didn't you say you only
> read 30 pages?
A little more than that.
Not for lack of trying to get further. It just didn't do it for me, and
I've precious little time to waste on something that bores the hell out
of me.
I can find more interesting things to do with my time.
--
Maggie - Like talk to you! *poke*
David Chapman
> In article <dc690972.01121...@posting.google.com>,
> Erin O'Toole <edgel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Was reading threads concerning other writers of this wildly creative
> >genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
> >to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
> >versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
> >other paragraph (Read: Goodkind). After wallowing through the drek of
> >that hack's writing, and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
> >Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
> >buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
> >where to start.
>
> Kate's suggested _Small Gods_ as a good place to start with Pratchett,
> and I can't argue with it. Although, _Hogfather_ might be more
> appropriate, this time of year. Although some of his books are
> connected (he's got several sub-series, dealing with groups of
> characters), they're all complete stories in and of themselves, so you
> could just go to the store and pick whichever one sounds most
> interesting.
You could, but I'd recommend either Mort, Wyrd Sisters or Guards!
Guards! as your starting point. All the others after the first three
require some knowledge of what has gone before - oh, except Reaper
Man, which is also a reasonable place to start. That said, Hogfather
is still my favourite.
>
> >I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
> >(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
>
> The first book in his Long, Unfinished Series of Very Thick Books is
> _A Game of Thrones_. A lot of people like it.
> Roger Zelazny. Most famous for his "Amber" series (now available in
> big, omnibus volume).
I understand that reading past the first five is an error, though.
Other good books of his are _Lord of Light_, _A
> Night in the Lonesome October_, and _Creatures of Light and
> Darkness_. The first is in print, the last is not, and I am not sure
> about the second.
You could always combine your GRR Martin with your Zelazny
and read the Wild Cards novels; they're just coming back into
print in better bindings and larger format. Very much worth the
read - the first six, at least, they're slightly weaker after that.
--
Nobody tosses a dwarf!
Johan Gustafsson
[snip]
> _The Long Ships_ by Frans G. Bengtsson is probably the best
> historical adventure novel ever written. 'nuff said.
He's not kidding, you know. For the holiday spirit, try out the chapter
where Orm and Toke celebrate "christmas" at Harald Bluetooth's. I
personally feel Luke's fiction should be replaced with this as obligatory
christmas reading.
I'd like to add Steven Erikson's "Gardens of the Moon", which while being
the first book in what appears to be a long series at least has a great
deal of closure at the end. It's weird and fascinating, not flawless but
a good read nonetheless. I remember someone describing it as "Black
Company" meets WoT.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** j...@e-bostad.net
Fight, Rand al'Thor! For everlasting peace!
Erin O'Toole
suggestions. Just got back from a bookstore feeling well over 100
dollars lighter. Hopefully the postings will help other "newbies" to
the newsgroup, who want more out of their reading, make informed
decisions on anything you fine people suggest.
Thanks again.
EJLO
James Wasson
"Erin O'Toole" <edgel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dc690972.01121...@posting.google.com...
novels. Some tie in to others, but many are stand alone novels. All are
short, and all are very funny. Another route to take is his novel Good
Omens. It's co-authored with Neil Gaiman and is one of the funnier books
I've seen. Martin is excellent for a huge story only half written (sounds
like Jordan!), if you can muddle through the first book(Again, sounds like
Jordan!). The others start to pick up the pace somewhat. Dave Duncan has a
few series that are worth reading, if you tell yourself before opening the
books that it is not high literature. It was written to be a fun story, not
something to shake the world. The Seventh Sword series is rather good for a
fun little piece of fluff.
Hope that helps.
James
Etherman
> In article <CkbU7.25925$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
Etherman wrote:
>
> > Flat characters??? Are we talking about the same series?
>
> Yes.
>
> Everything about those characters shrieks to me that the *author*
> thinks he's writing deep, meaningsul, three-dimensional characters
who
> speak to the nature of man and his relationship to the Cosmic All.
>
> That he's not, is flaw enough.
He writes characters with history, motivation, and individual traits.
They're anything but flat.
> But that he really believes he is just makes it worse, somehow.
I see. You're psychic and knows what he believes.
Mark Loy
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu wrote:
<sorry for the long delay in responding and or posting...I've been rather
sick for about a week and just now getting my see legs back>
> In article <7n8U7.25833$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Etherman wrote:
>
> > Martin's first book in A Song of Fire and Ice is called Game of
> > Thrones. This is a series where it's tough to go wrong with. The
> > only criticism I've read of it is that it's too gritty (foul language,
> > underage sex, incest, violence, etc).
>
> It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
> poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
<boggle>
This has got to be one of the most dumbfounding statements ever made in
the entire history of man as the dominant species on this planet.
The rebuttal is ludicrously simple and absolutely unimpeachable:
Tyrion.
<note--what follows are spoilers for the series so read under penalty of
series poisoning>
A son born to a strong ruling family but misshapen and ugly--dwarfish and
repugnant--and having the further misfortune of "causing" his mother to
die in the effort to give him life. His father hates him and does not let
an opportunity pass to let him know the depth of that hatred. His sister
loathes him and never lets an opportunity pass to remind him of such.
Everyone feels...tainted just being around him. The only person who
_ever_ shows him even a modicum of love and understanding is his
brother--the same brother who has been having sex with their sister for
decades and once threw a child off a high tower without any remorse which
shows, again, that there are no purely good or purely evil characters in
Martin's world.
Yet Tyrion has managed to survive and even develop in to a very
strong-willed and passionate individual. Through the hardship and pain
and constant torment he has overcome all adversity to become a lord of
some significance and power. Stunted and shunned and pissed upon by his
father he has nevertheless managed to become the best of the Lannisters.
A man of principles and conscious and love and devotion to duty. Also a
man of the moment, of lustful sex and debauchery, with a tankard of ale or
a bottle of wine and a willingness to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh at
any opportunity as his only solace against the pain.
But also a man who would not force himself upon a young maiden even though
it was his matrimonial right. A man who cares. A man who feels. A man
who through the power of his mind and his will to survive has become a
legend--kinslayer...nay, *Kingslayer*!.
Yeah...that's certainly as flat and uninteresting a "hero" you could ever
imagine for a series.
And there are others just as flat and unintersting, I assure you.
ML
(I only do this because you make such statements as you did above. I
respect your's and Pam's opinions as highly as anyone I know but you both
do this book, and yourselves, a grave disservice. I love the WoT and have
devoted *thousands* of hours on it but I would gladly never finish it if
it meant I could not finish Martin's series. As always, tastes they
vary...to each his or her own...some people don't like cheesecake...some
people gladly eat shit and ask for seconds.)
P. Korda
Mark Loy <ml...@iupui.edu> wrote:
[George R.R. Martin]
[snip description of a particular sub-plot]
>(I only do this because you make such statements as you did above. I
>respect your's and Pam's opinions as highly as anyone I know but you both
>do this book, and yourselves, a grave disservice. I love the WoT and have
Firstly, note that I don't share Novak's opinion about the literary
merit of the series (or at least of Book 1, since neither of us have
read further).
But, I fail to see how I do the book a disservice by saying that _I_
thought it was boring. I'll happily admit that tons of others really
enjoy it, and think the whole series is the greatest thing since
sliced bread, and thus that a randomly-chosen person will probably not
share my opinion. I don't dis-recommend it, I just say that I,
personally, didn't find it interesting or entertaining enough to buy
the next book. It's like somebody saying "I don't like chocolate." I
may think they're crazy, or have weird tastes, but I don't say they're
"doing chocolate a disservice."
And honestly, the way my life is these days, I don't think I'm doing
myself a disservice by not trying to read three super-long books in an
unfinished series. That'd be like sentencing myself to reading only
one story for the next six months!
-pam
John S. Novak, III
>> It was boring, the characters flat and uninteresting, the writing style
>> poor. It's not worth my time to try the second volume.
> This has got to be one of the most dumbfounding statements ever made in
> the entire history of man as the dominant species on this planet.
> The rebuttal is ludicrously simple and absolutely unimpeachable:
> Tyrion.
Your rebuttal means very little to me, if I have to sit here and wonder--
as I currently am-- which character Tyrion was. The little guy,
right?
><note--what follows are spoilers for the series so read under penalty of
> series poisoning>
> A son born to a strong ruling family but misshapen and ugly--dwarfish and
> repugnant--
Yeah, the little guy.
So I managed to remember that much.
He's one of perhaps three characters who were memorable enough that I
can still match up the name to some sort of recollection of the
character.
> And there are others just as flat and unintersting, I assure you.
No, most are even moreso, because if you mentioned them to me, my
reaction would range from a blank stare to only the dim recollection
that I had read a story with a character of that name, and that the
story was probably _A Game of Thrones_, but I wou;dn't possibly be
able to tell you anything about them becuase I just didn't fucking
care enough to devote my memory cells to storing the information.
Mark Loy
(P. Korda) wrote:
> In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>,
> Mark Loy <ml...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>
> [George R.R. Martin]
>
> [snip description of a particular sub-plot]
>
> >(I only do this because you make such statements as you did above. I
> >respect your's and Pam's opinions as highly as anyone I know but you both
> >do this book, and yourselves, a grave disservice. I love the WoT and have
>
> Firstly, note that I don't share Novak's opinion about the literary
> merit of the series (or at least of Book 1, since neither of us have
> read further).
>
> But, I fail to see how I do the book a disservice by saying that _I_
> thought it was boring. I'll happily admit that tons of others really
> enjoy it, and think the whole series is the greatest thing since
> sliced bread, and thus that a randomly-chosen person will probably not
> share my opinion. I don't dis-recommend it, I just say that I,
> personally, didn't find it interesting or entertaining enough to buy
> the next book. It's like somebody saying "I don't like chocolate." I
> may think they're crazy, or have weird tastes, but I don't say they're
> "doing chocolate a disservice."
Point taken.
And I apologize for doing you a disservice by my generalized rant.
I guess it's just that...I really want people that I care about to read
this series.
I mean, I recommend the WoT to people, too.
There are things in life that you just feel strongly enough about to want
to share the feeling with others.
> And honestly, the way my life is these days, I don't think I'm doing
> myself a disservice by not trying to read three super-long books in an
> unfinished series. That'd be like sentencing myself to reading only
> one story for the next six months!
<smiling>
For me I _love_ big books. If a story is good and I can really just lose
myself in the pages I don't want it to ever end.
Well..."ever" is a hyperbole but mostly that's the way I feel. Having one
glorious story to read is like a wonderful tv series that I follow.
Eventually all shows "jump the shark" or whatever it's called and I'm
ready for them to end. But sometimes...like Buffy...I'm just not ready to
give it up. But what the fuck am I off on Buffy for? Fuck if I know. I
guess it's because I watched a repeat of the episode where Joyce died--the
one where it was silent all the way through and they had her in the morgue
and had to deal with death and all that that entailed--literally one of
the greatest examples of fine writing _and_ acting ever done on
television. I guess I'm saying that a long book or story is like that for
me. The longer it is the more I'm there. The more I enjoy each new
installment.
Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me. The scene where they
cleansed saidin--that really did jump it for me. The forsaken--the
baddest bad guys of all time--acted like incompetents and the author
literally removed one of _the_ most significant and important cornerstones
of the entire series--the taint. Fuck. Having the reality of Rand going
insane on everyone's mind, including Rand's, was paramount to the story,
IMHO. Would the bastard make it to the final battle and would it be
better for everyone if he didn't?
<shrug>
Whatever. I guess I'm feeling "chatty" this afternoon.
ML
John S. Novak, III
> But, I fail to see how I do the book a disservice by saying that _I_
> thought it was boring. I'll happily admit that tons of others really
> enjoy it, and think the whole series is the greatest thing since
> sliced bread, and thus that a randomly-chosen person will probably not
> share my opinion. I don't dis-recommend it, I just say that I,
> personally, didn't find it interesting or entertaining enough to buy
> the next book. It's like somebody saying "I don't like chocolate." I
> may think they're crazy, or have weird tastes, but I don't say they're
> "doing chocolate a disservice."
Hell, I wasn't aware that I owed the book any service at all.
But my opinion of it remains, "I don't care what happens to
those characters."
It's not the sheer life-sucking horribleness of Goodkind, but it bores
me nonetheless, and there are many more pleasant ways I'd rather spend
my time.
John S. Novak, III
> Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
> it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me. The scene where they
> cleansed saidin--that really did jump it for me.
Tastes, they do vary.
> The forsaken--the
> baddest bad guys of all time--acted like incompetents and the author
> literally removed one of _the_ most significant and important cornerstones
> of the entire series--the taint. Fuck. Having the reality of Rand going
> insane on everyone's mind, including Rand's, was paramount to the story,
> IMHO. Would the bastard make it to the final battle and would it be
> better for everyone if he didn't?
Well, if I hadn't been convinced from long ago that the Forsaken were
(with one or two exceptions, at best) idiots, that probably would have
done it for me. But, I reconciled myself to their idiocy a long time
ago, and I rationalize it by simply assuming that the honor gaurd Rand
had with him was much more organized and competent than the Forsaken
expected-- and that Jordan just wrote it wrong.
As for removing the Taint ruining the series, on the contrary, that
revived it for me, for these reasons:
First, it's a sign of some actual Forward Progress in the series.
Something, somewhere, was Resolved. Something Important. Hooray.
Second, his healing the wound of madness had been foreshadowed for
quite some time; not seeing it would have annoyed me.
Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
(Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
Fourth, if he really wants to be cruel, he can claim that the staff
wound from Ishamael that is currently battling the knife wound from
Fain in Rand's side is the same basic thing as the Taint, and will
continue to drive Rand nuts. (But I don't think he will.)
Fifth, I think it opens up as many interesting avenues as it closes,
especially in the political sense-- how will people react to rumors
that the Taint has been cleansed? How will this affect the White
Tower, and the Red Ajah, in particular?
So on the whole, I was happy with it.
Mark Loy
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu wrote:
> In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>
> > Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
> > it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me. The scene where they
> > cleansed saidin--that really did jump it for me.
>
> Tastes, they do vary.
>
> > The forsaken--the
> > baddest bad guys of all time--acted like incompetents and the author
> > literally removed one of _the_ most significant and important cornerstones
> > of the entire series--the taint. Fuck. Having the reality of Rand going
> > insane on everyone's mind, including Rand's, was paramount to the story,
> > IMHO. Would the bastard make it to the final battle and would it be
> > better for everyone if he didn't?
>
> Well, if I hadn't been convinced from long ago that the Forsaken were
> (with one or two exceptions, at best) idiots, that probably would have
> done it for me. But, I reconciled myself to their idiocy a long time
> ago, and I rationalize it by simply assuming that the honor gaurd Rand
> had with him was much more organized and competent than the Forsaken
> expected-- and that Jordan just wrote it wrong.
>
> As for removing the Taint ruining the series, on the contrary, that
> revived it for me, for these reasons:
>
> First, it's a sign of some actual Forward Progress in the series.
> Something, somewhere, was Resolved. Something Important. Hooray.
Yeah well...to me Jordan was being dishonest.
You set up a story where the hero has an incurable disease, a disease that
will only worsen with time, you let everyone be aware of that including,
and foremost, the young hero destined to save the world, and die in the
effort, and then you remove it like <poof!>.
> Second, his healing the wound of madness had been foreshadowed for
> quite some time; not seeing it would have annoyed me.
Yeah but that's a cop-out in and of itself. I mean that he could have
cleansed it _at the end_ with the re-sealing of the Dark One as part of
his final "gift" to humanity and or as some kind of payment for sins he
will commit in order to defeat the Dark One. I mean he's prophesized,
IIRC, just as much to destroy the world all over again. So let him
destroy it and save it all in one fell swoop with his blood on the rocks
of Shayol Ghul...
It just seems to me that Jordan has made it possible for Rand to not die
at the end.
Hunky fuckin' dory.
All his introspection and confusion and anger about being the "chosen one"
and all the problems his childhood friends had with it etc. just vanishes
as if it was never there.
Now the Ashaman ain't gonna go berserk and kill everybody.
They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who are evil
but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing to the Dark
One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
Bah.
> Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
> madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
> halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
> (Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
> Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
> he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
> degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
Functioning, is where he has them.
Heros and champions for the Light is where he has them, without any shadow
of doubt.
Where's the fun in that?
What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
How you gonna do what you got to do when you're goin' bonko-puddin' and or
you can't be sure you are or aren't and or you could end up doin' more
harm than the one you are tryin' to prevent from doin' harm?
Or somethin' like that.
> Fourth, if he really wants to be cruel, he can claim that the staff
> wound from Ishamael that is currently battling the knife wound from
> Fain in Rand's side is the same basic thing as the Taint, and will
> continue to drive Rand nuts. (But I don't think he will.)
I just thought that the impending madness was something that made Rand's
efforts more heroic, more important and time-constrained, something
wonderful to watch as the madness takes over his ability to lead. If he
ain't gonna get any worse, where's the hurry to Tarmon Gaidon? Where's
the impetus to get there and have it out with the Dark Lord before he's
bonkers?
And more importantly...where's the impetus for Jordan to get the story there?
> Fifth, I think it opens up as many interesting avenues as it closes,
> especially in the political sense-- how will people react to rumors
> that the Taint has been cleansed? How will this affect the White
> Tower, and the Red Ajah, in particular?
Yeah there is that.
But the plot elements it closes...
> So on the whole, I was happy with it.
To each their own.
One final comment about Martin's series...I'm sorry to be so fuckin' pushy
about it with all that Tyrion shit and all. I guess it's just weird that
I get "upset" that people that I consider my friends aren't going to ever
enjoy this series--what I consider to be the most original and powerful
fantasy series out there.
So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
I know I used to try to get you and Pam to read the Donaldson shit but
that was much more for a reason of completeness/"scholarly pursuit"--I
just couldn't understand how people who know so much about the WoT
wouldn't want to see/get the connections/comparisons that are occasionally
bandied about regarding Donaldson. It's like if you hadn't read the Lord
of the Rings and I couldn't convince you to read it even if just to see
the similarities to Jordan and Herbert...etc.
Does this make sense to anyone out there in pre-Christmas land?
Fuck, I need some egg-nog spiked with stoly.
ML
Bill McCarthy
> I mean, I recommend the WoT to people, too.
>
> There are things in life that you just feel strongly enough about to want
> to share the feeling with others.
So do I. But I usually share it via a raised middle finger and choice
expletive. I never get so upset that I get midieval on their asses and
start whipping out the Jordan on them....
That's just cruel.
--
Bill McCarthy
Mark Loy
<bmcc...@rebelrents.com> wrote:
Well yeah, but you...you're a humanitarian of international repute.
Me, I'm greasy septic tank sludge.
Not even one fuckin' good assed lump, either.
Nope. I'm the stuff that even avid shitmongers avoid.
ML
Michelle J. Haines
> In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>
> > Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
> > it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me
What does that expression actually mean, anyway?
Michelle
Flutist
--
Hush now, my baby, be still love don't cry,
Sleep as you're rocked by the stream
Sleep and remember my last lullaby
So I'll be with you when you dream.
-- For Xander [9/22/98 - 2/23/99]
Bill McCarthy
>
> > In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
> >
> > > Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
> > > it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me
>
> What does that expression actually mean, anyway?
http://www.jumpedtheshark.com/
--
Bill McCarthy
Richard Boye'
>
> > In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
> >
> > > Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
> > > it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me
>
> What does that expression actually mean, anyway?
Basically, it means that a series (television, books, what-have-you) has
reached its peak of creativity and enjoyability and is on the downward
spiral. The "jumping of the shark" is the turning point. It comes from
Happy Days when the turning point came when, in an effort to make the
oh-so-cool Fonzie still seem oh-so-cool, the producers concocted some
bizarre stunt in which Fonzie was going to jump over a pool of water on
his motocycle, and in that water was a shark.
Ergo, Happy Days started to suck when Fonzie jumped the shark.
There is a whole website out there devoted to this concept and
classifies when hundreds of shows "jumped the shark."
(for example, when cousin Oliver was introduced from left field....)
--
Richard M. Boye' ICQ:9021244
* wa...@webspan.net
* http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/
"Let's put the 'fun' back in 'dysfunctional'!"
David Chapman
news:mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43...
I can foresee myself saying "well, yeah, but" a lot in this
post...
In this case: well, yeah, but when Rand was only going to
go mad and rot if he didn't die at the Last Battle, he had
nothing to lose. Now he has to fight Tar'mon Gaidon
knowing that he will die and lose *everything*.
> > Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
> > madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
> > halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
> > (Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
> > Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
> > he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
> > degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
>
>
> Functioning, is where he has them.
>
> Heros and champions for the Light is where he has them, without any shadow
> of doubt.
>
> Where's the fun in that?
>
> What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
> complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
>
> How you gonna do what you got to do when you're goin' bonko-puddin' and or
> you can't be sure you are or aren't and or you could end up doin' more
> harm than the one you are tryin' to prevent from doin' harm?
>
> Or somethin' like that.
Well, yeah, but it wouldn't really remain believable if nobody
went mad, nor would it remain believable if only characters
unnecessary to the plot went mad.
>
>
> > Fourth, if he really wants to be cruel, he can claim that the staff
> > wound from Ishamael that is currently battling the knife wound from
> > Fain in Rand's side is the same basic thing as the Taint, and will
> > continue to drive Rand nuts. (But I don't think he will.)
>
> I just thought that the impending madness was something that made Rand's
> efforts more heroic, more important and time-constrained, something
> wonderful to watch as the madness takes over his ability to lead. If he
> ain't gonna get any worse, where's the hurry to Tarmon Gaidon? Where's
> the impetus to get there and have it out with the Dark Lord before he's
> bonkers?
>
> And more importantly...where's the impetus for Jordan to get the story
there?
Roughly the same place it was before. The Dark One *is* going
to force the issue sooner or later, probably when only one of the
Forsaken remains alive to lead. Despite that he won't now go mad
and die, Rand is still limited in the time he has to unite the nations
and head north.
P. Korda
Mark Loy <ml...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>In article <vxKU7.89$s4....@news.uchicago.edu>, ko...@midway.uchicago.edu
>(P. Korda) wrote:
>> [George R.R. Martin]
>> But, I fail to see how I do the book a disservice by saying that _I_
>> thought it was boring. I'll happily admit that tons of others really
>> enjoy it, and think the whole series is the greatest thing since
>> sliced bread, and thus that a randomly-chosen person will probably not
>> share my opinion. I don't dis-recommend it, I just say that I,
>I guess it's just that...I really want people that I care about to read
>this series.
>I mean, I recommend the WoT to people, too.
>There are things in life that you just feel strongly enough about to want
>to share the feeling with others.
Perfectly understandable, and I do like getting recommendations. You
can feel happy that I _have_ tried the series, and just found that it
wasn't for me.
>> And honestly, the way my life is these days, I don't think I'm doing
>> myself a disservice by not trying to read three super-long books in an
>> unfinished series. That'd be like sentencing myself to reading only
>> one story for the next six months!
>For me I _love_ big books. If a story is good and I can really just lose
>myself in the pages I don't want it to ever end.
>
>Well..."ever" is a hyperbole but mostly that's the way I feel. Having one
>glorious story to read is like a wonderful tv series that I follow.
I do enjoy getting immersed in a created world, as well. And yet, in
recent years, I've developed a strong aversion to long books in
general. Long, multi-volume epics are even worse. It's not even
Jordan' fault (really!). It's just that I don't have the time to get
interested in them.
Long books, by nature, move along more slowly than short ones. A nice,
leisurely pace is fine when you can spend long stretches of time just
working through a book. But, if you don't, then you end up losing
track of what's going on, and thus losing interest.
And, while I like getting into stories, I like experiencing a variety
of them. I like _Buffy_, but I also like _The West Wing_, and _24_,
and _Enterprise_. If I could only watch just one, I'd get bored. I've
been reading some good books lately, and I doubt I'll ever regret
spending my time reading Powers' _The Anubis Gates_, and Panshin's
_The Thurb Revolution_ and _Masque World_, rather than taking another
stab at _A Game of Thrones_.
If nothing else, those books are a lot more _fun_.
-pam
Mike Kozlowski
P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Mark Loy <ml...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>>There are things in life that you just feel strongly enough about to want
>>to share the feeling with others.
>
>Perfectly understandable, and I do like getting recommendations. You
>can feel happy that I _have_ tried the series, and just found that it
>wasn't for me.
But what's weird is -- not so much with you, but with Novak -- what he's
criticizing as weaknesses of the series are exactly what most people
consider its strengths. So, it's very odd.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Jasper Janssen
>What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
>complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
>
>How you gonna do what you got to do when you're goin' bonko-puddin' and or
>you can't be sure you are or aren't and or you could end up doin' more
>harm than the one you are tryin' to prevent from doin' harm?
And, uhm, not to harp on any one theme here, but how does that compare to
Frodo's brush with Ring-Taint?
Admittedly, that doesn't really come out to play much in LotR, but the
element is there.
Jasper
John S. Novak, III
> Basically, it means that a series (television, books, what-have-you) has
> reached its peak of creativity and enjoyability and is on the downward
> spiral. The "jumping of the shark" is the turning point.
No, jumping the shark is the point of no return.
Jumping the shark is when the series has no possibility of ever living
down whatever perfidy the writers have committed, and is destined to
be forever more Just Plain Stupid.
Other than that, yes.
John S. Novak, III
> But what's weird is -- not so much with you, but with Novak -- what he's
> criticizing as weaknesses of the series are exactly what most people
> consider its strengths. So, it's very odd.
Believe me, I am acutely aware of that fact.
Because every time I see someone praising the depth of characterization,
for instance, in Martin's stuff, I have to wonder which parallel
universe my copy came from, because none of those interesting
people are in my edition.
John S. Novak, III
In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>> Tastes, they do vary.
...So assume there are IMO's or some such sprinkled through this.
>> As for removing the Taint ruining the series, on the contrary, that
>> revived it for me, for these reasons:
>> First, it's a sign of some actual Forward Progress in the series.
>> Something, somewhere, was Resolved. Something Important. Hooray.
> Yeah well...to me Jordan was being dishonest.
I just can't see this, when it's been prophesied from day one.
> You set up a story where the hero has an incurable disease, a disease that
> will only worsen with time, you let everyone be aware of that including,
> and foremost, the young hero destined to save the world, and die in the
> effort, and then you remove it like <poof!>.
<Snort>
C'mon, it was one of the first prophesies of the Dragon we heard of.
We knew he was planning it for several books. The foreshadowing even
of the *method* showed up starting in the second book, with Ishamael's
wound, and if that wasn't enough, we were hit over the head with it in
ACoS with Sammael in Shadar Logoth.
(And really, it wasn't, because I don't think many of us saw the
method coming.)
It was all right there, even if we didn't see it.
>> Second, his healing the wound of madness had been foreshadowed for
>> quite some time; not seeing it would have annoyed me.
> Yeah but that's a cop-out in and of itself. I mean that he could have
> cleansed it _at the end_ with the re-sealing of the Dark One as part of
> his final "gift" to humanity and or as some kind of payment for sins he
> will commit in order to defeat the Dark One.
I suppose he could have.
But I wouldn't have liked it as much, becuase you couldn't see anyone
react or respond to it. I've been looking forward to this-- or the
aftermath of it, specifically, for a long, long time now.
> It just seems to me that Jordan has made it possible for Rand to not die
> at the end.
That's always been possible.
Remember his answers from the 'Finn.
I'll be annoyed if he doesn't die, but I won't connect it to this-- I
never figured he was going to live long enough to die from the Taint
anyway, and I think we all knew that he wasn't going to die of the
Taint *before* he fought the Last Battle.
He doesn't know that, but we do.
> All his introspection and confusion and anger about being the "chosen one"
> and all the problems his childhood friends had with it etc. just vanishes
> as if it was never there.
The hell it does.
He's still prophesied to break the world again.
He's still the object of both fear and hope.
He's still a total nutter. He's still gonna have Lews Therin in his
head. He's still got to go wandering around as a beggar, even.
Now he's made a little progress, is all.
And now he has a reason, at least, to *try* and live through the Last
Battle, adding some poignancy to it if (as I hope) he fails.
> Now the Ashaman ain't gonna go berserk and kill everybody.
Which is okay, because that would have been deeply unsatisfying.
Far more damaging than that, though, there will be politics.
> They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who are evil
> but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing to the Dark
> One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
Oh, I strongly suspect not.
Taim is still there mucking around, and Logain is still a magnet for
trouble, no matter how well intentioned.
Now, though, they have to make an honest choice between good and evil.
They can't take the easy way out and complain that they were tempted
through protection of the Taint.
>> Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
>> madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
>> halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
>> (Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
>> Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
>> he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
>> degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
> Functioning, is where he has them.
As he should.
Gibbering madness thrills me not.
I get enough of that at work.
("I have read your specifications. They violate the laws of physics."
"Gaa hurz-oo vabba! Nyehhye! Nyehhye!"
"Stop slobbering on my desk, and get out. Go write a real spec.")
> Heros and champions for the Light is where he has them, without any shadow
> of doubt.
> Where's the fun in that?
It leaves the fun of a moral choice.
> What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
> complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
Agreed.
And now it's time for the spring to snap, the tension to release, and
the world to deform under the new stresses.
And as an added benefit, the Asha'man are *not* all sane anyway.
So we'll have, if the series goes on for long enough, an added axis of
politics-- not just the personality cults of Rand, Taim, and Logain,
not just the ontological conflict of how the world (and the White
Tower) reacts, but the new, young, unequivocally sane members of the
Black Tower against the older, established, possibly bug-fuck crazy
members, with Taim, Logain and Rand each claiming that the other two
are off their rockers.
>> Fourth, if he really wants to be cruel, he can claim that the staff
>> wound from Ishamael that is currently battling the knife wound from
>> Fain in Rand's side is the same basic thing as the Taint, and will
>> continue to drive Rand nuts. (But I don't think he will.)
> I just thought that the impending madness was something that made Rand's
> efforts more heroic, more important and time-constrained, something
> wonderful to watch as the madness takes over his ability to lead. If he
> ain't gonna get any worse, where's the hurry to Tarmon Gaidon? Where's
> the impetus to get there and have it out with the Dark Lord before he's
> bonkers?
Uh, there's that whole interdimensional Dark Lord of All Unholy still
pushing against the Seals on his own time table....
> And more importantly...where's the impetus for Jordan to get the story there?
I dunno.
Where was it after tFoH?
If you find it, please send it to Robert Jordan, c/o Tor Books....
>> Fifth, I think it opens up as many interesting avenues as it closes,
>> especially in the political sense-- how will people react to rumors
>> that the Taint has been cleansed? How will this affect the White
>> Tower, and the Red Ajah, in particular?
> Yeah there is that.
> But the plot elements it closes...
Have been done, already.
> One final comment about Martin's series...I'm sorry to be so fuckin' pushy
> about it with all that Tyrion shit and all.
No problem.
But there's really not much I can imagine you saying that's going to
change my mind, here. It just Doesn't Work for me.
> So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
> someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
I was marginally annoyed that not everyone realizes the brillance and
masterwork that is the Neverness cycle (but NOT the Ea cycle) by
Zindell.
I got over it, though.
> I know I used to try to get you and Pam to read the Donaldson shit but
> that was much more for a reason of completeness/"scholarly pursuit"
Scholarly pursuit is the only reason I can see bothering to pick up
Donaldson again. Right now, I have enough scholarly pursuits to keep
me busy for the forseeable future.
John S. Novak, III
> And, while I like getting into stories, I like experiencing a variety
> of them. I like _Buffy_, but I also like _The West Wing_, and _24_,
> and _Enterprise_.
Appropos of very little, does anyone happen to have on tape the
episode of 24 that aired the week of December 9th, or know when it
will be rebroadcast?
I managed to miss it not once, but twice.
Craig Moe
>In article <a000g6$h778k$1...@ID-100778.news.dfncis.de>,
>j...@cegt201.bradley.edu wrote:
>
>> In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>>
>> > Of course it might be the reason that I've cooled a bit on the WoT is that
>> > it actually has "jumped the shark"--at least for me. The scene where they
>> > cleansed saidin--that really did jump it for me.
>> > The forsaken--the
>> > baddest bad guys of all time--acted like incompetents and the author
>> > literally removed one of _the_ most significant and important cornerstones
>> > of the entire series--the taint. Fuck. Having the reality of Rand going
>> > insane on everyone's mind, including Rand's, was paramount to the story,
>> > IMHO. Would the bastard make it to the final battle and would it be
>> > better for everyone if he didn't?
Well, I never felt it was in doubt that he'd make it to the end, since
the book would kind of ground to a halt without him. And frankly, him
angsting about it got old a couple of books ago.
>> Well, if I hadn't been convinced from long ago that the Forsaken were
>> (with one or two exceptions, at best) idiots, that probably would have
>> done it for me. But, I reconciled myself to their idiocy a long time
>> ago, and I rationalize it by simply assuming that the honor gaurd Rand
>> had with him was much more organized and competent than the Forsaken
>> expected-- and that Jordan just wrote it wrong.
And I just read it as the fuckwit portion of the Forsaken were sent
after a man they had very successfully trained to never trust another
chaneller only to have said man find religion two days earlier and bring
a big bad ass posse along with him.
>Yeah well...to me Jordan was being dishonest.
>
>You set up a story where the hero has an incurable disease, a disease that
>will only worsen with time, you let everyone be aware of that including,
>and foremost, the young hero destined to save the world, and die in the
>effort, and then you remove it like <poof!>.
Well, it's not like he hadn't made it clear that cleansing the taint was
the plan for a couple of books at least. I don't consider it a loss that
one of the hundreds of ways Our Hero can die in the end has been taken
off the table. (Of course, I also believe he's not going to die in the
end, but I'm a sucker for a happy ending.)
>It just seems to me that Jordan has made it possible for Rand to not die
>at the end.
>
>Hunky fuckin' dory.
I guess you wouldn't like that ending then.
>All his introspection and confusion and anger about being the "chosen one"
>and all the problems his childhood friends had with it etc. just vanishes
>as if it was never there.
He still thinks he's going to die. He still has to spend his days saving
the world, instead dancing around the local maypole, and his presence
still puts all his loved ones in grave danger. For all we know, he could
still have suicidal voices in his head. I don't think any of his
introspection or confusion or anger has been resolved.
>Now the Ashaman ain't gonna go berserk and kill everybody.
Darn.
>What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
>complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
I agree. But I also feel that overcoming this complex factor was a
necessary part of advancing the story.
>I just thought that the impending madness was something that made Rand's
>efforts more heroic, more important and time-constrained, something
>wonderful to watch as the madness takes over his ability to lead. If he
>ain't gonna get any worse, where's the hurry to Tarmon Gaidon? Where's
>the impetus to get there and have it out with the Dark Lord before he's
>bonkers?
I always thought the hurry was to get there before the big, bad, evil
was free.
>And more importantly...where's the impetus for Jordan to get the story there?
The Law of Diminishing Returns?
>One final comment about Martin's series...I'm sorry to be so fuckin' pushy
>about it with all that Tyrion shit and all. I guess it's just weird that
>I get "upset" that people that I consider my friends aren't going to ever
>enjoy this series--what I consider to be the most original and powerful
>fantasy series out there.
>
>So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
>someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
I get more upset when I keep hearing that something is brilliant and I
just don't see it. My view of A Game of Thrones is probably harsher than
it was when I read it just because everybody seems to think it's the
greatest thing since sliced bread when in a just world the would share
my opinions, damn it.
--
Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com>
"I read that it had some serious side effects. I can't remember any of
them, or else I could be informative. But at least I can be alarmist."
--Dave Foley
Mike Kozlowski
John S. Novak, III <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>Why is this TAN'd, again?
Honestly, at this point, it's just instinct, I think. Posts don't feel
right if they're all naked and unadorned like that.
[Taint removal]
>> Yeah well...to me Jordan was being dishonest.
>
>I just can't see this, when it's been prophesied from day one.
>
Well, it seemed like it should have fallen out of something else, you
know? Rather than him spending a whole book setting up to cure it, it
should have just _happened_ when he defeated The Dark Lord or whatever.
Something that flowed organically with the plot, rather than sticking out
in this mechanical, forced fashion like it did.
Either way, though, it is at least _something_, which is more than I can
say about anything that didn't happen in TPOD, so...
>> It just seems to me that Jordan has made it possible for Rand to not die
>> at the end.
>
>That's always been possible.
I have never believed that Rand will die at the end. Too many people are
accepting it as obvious truth in the books, and obvious truths have a way
of being false.
>> Now the Ashaman ain't gonna go berserk and kill everybody.
>
>Which is okay, because that would have been deeply unsatisfying.
>Far more damaging than that, though, there will be politics.
That'd be more interesting if Jordan wrote politics better -- he lacks
even one-tenth of the skill that Martin possesses in writing political
intrigue, for instance.
>> So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
>> someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
That doesn't bother me, because I know that my tastes are idiosyncratic,
and various people like various things. What bothers me is when people
don't find something brilliant that I'm _sure_ they'd find brilliant. If
someone told me everything that Novak liked, I'd have bet money on him
absolutely loving Martin. He _should_, because it's full of the stuff
that he likes, and well-done. But, apparently, not the case.
My main frustration these days is in wanting to recommend books to people
that I know they'll like, but which are out of print (Hughart, lots of
Dave Duncan, _The Long Run_ -- which I only ever got to read thanks to a
used copy that Kate threw at me).
Aaron Bergman
>In article <GlRU7.108$s4....@news.uchicago.edu>, P. Korda wrote:
>
>> And, while I like getting into stories, I like experiencing a variety
>> of them. I like _Buffy_, but I also like _The West Wing_, and _24_,
>> and _Enterprise_.
>
>Appropos of very little, does anyone happen to have on tape the
>episode of 24 that aired the week of December 9th, or know when it
>will be rebroadcast?
Try www.tvguide.com. I think that f/x reruns them occasionally.
The show is just a bit overwrought to be trly great, I think, not
that anyone asked.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman
<http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/>
John S. Novak, III
>>Which is okay, because that would have been deeply unsatisfying.
>>Far more damaging than that, though, there will be politics.
> That'd be more interesting if Jordan wrote politics better -- he lacks
> even one-tenth of the skill that Martin possesses in writing political
> intrigue, for instance.
Now you're just trying to bait me, Weasel Boy.
>>> So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
>>> someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
> That doesn't bother me, because I know that my tastes are idiosyncratic,
> and various people like various things. What bothers me is when people
> don't find something brilliant that I'm _sure_ they'd find brilliant. If
> someone told me everything that Novak liked, I'd have bet money on him
> absolutely loving Martin.
I expected to like it.
I wanted to like it.
I paid enough money for it in hardback that I deserved to like it.
I didn't like it.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
John S. Novak, III
Aaron Bergman wrote:
>>Appropos of very little, does anyone happen to have on tape the
>>episode of 24 that aired the week of December 9th, or know when it
>>will be rebroadcast?
> Try www.tvguide.com. I think that f/x reruns them occasionally.
This would be helpful information if, in fact, I had F/X.
Or if, in fact, I had cable.
J.Hamby
I think that saving the cleansing for the grand
finale would have been cheap and a bit trite.
This way we get what Novak mentions as well as
the wonderful complication that the removal of the
taint provides.
How many are really going to believe that the taint
is gone? How many are really going to trust any
male channeler. Imagine the possibilities this creates?
Embittered Asha'man who are still treated as rabid dogs
despite having no rabies certainly could provide an
even more interesting motive for joining the Shadow.
Removal of the taint also makes for a grander stage
for the the vicious political arena Jordan has created
for control of the Black Tower.
> > It just seems to me that Jordan has made it possible for Rand to not die
> > at the end.
>
> That's always been possible.
> Remember his answers from the 'Finn.
>
> I'll be annoyed if he doesn't die, but I won't connect it to this-- I
> never figured he was going to live long enough to die from the Taint
> anyway, and I think we all knew that he wasn't going to die of the
> Taint *before* he fought the Last Battle.
>
> He doesn't know that, but we do.
>
I don't think I have ever expected Rand to actually die.
Perverse optimism? I don't think so; just Jordan's
decidedly obvious foreshadowing and heavyhanded misdirection.
> > All his introspection and confusion and anger about being the "chosen one"
> > and all the problems his childhood friends had with it etc. just vanishes
> > as if it was never there.
>
> The hell it does.
> He's still prophesied to break the world again.
> He's still the object of both fear and hope.
>
> He's still a total nutter. He's still gonna have Lews Therin in his
> head. He's still got to go wandering around as a beggar, even.
>
> Now he's made a little progress, is all.
> And now he has a reason, at least, to *try* and live through the Last
> Battle, adding some poignancy to it if (as I hope) he fails.
Plus imagine his anger awakening to Cadsuane's doubts
to the taint's removal, his uncertainty as to whether
the absence of LTT in his head is a result of the taint's
absence or not...
Jordan can raise the bar here in many ways. Depending
on where he goes with it. But the barhas not been lowered
in any way, imo.
> > Now the Ashaman ain't gonna go berserk and kill everybody.
>
> Which is okay, because that would have been deeply unsatisfying.
> Far more damaging than that, though, there will be politics.
Instead we get everyone still treating them like
they will go mad. And we get to see some true
natures examined at least a bit more closely
and in a more interesting light -- at least I hope.
>
> > They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who are evil
> > but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing to the Dark
> > One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
>
> Oh, I strongly suspect not.
> Taim is still there mucking around, and Logain is still a magnet for
> trouble, no matter how well intentioned.
>
> Now, though, they have to make an honest choice between good and evil.
> They can't take the easy way out and complain that they were tempted
> through protection of the Taint.
>
What is more it adds a whole new level to the male
Forsaken machinations.
> >> Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
> >> madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
> >> halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
> >> (Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
> >> Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
> >> he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
> >> degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
>
> > Functioning, is where he has them.
>
> As he should.
> Gibbering madness thrills me not.
>
> I get enough of that at work.
>
> ("I have read your specifications. They violate the laws of physics."
> "Gaa hurz-oo vabba! Nyehhye! Nyehhye!"
> "Stop slobbering on my desk, and get out. Go write a real spec.")
That said, there is also the prospect already mentioned
that some Asha'man are already on the verge of madness
if not right over the edge. Makes for some different scenarios.
> > Heros and champions for the Light is where he has them, without any shadow
> > of doubt.
>
> > Where's the fun in that?
>
> It leaves the fun of a moral choice.
And once again I will interject that the Asha'man
will see themselves as such, but will anyone else?
I think if Jordan does this correctly, the first thing
that everyone in Randland would do if confronted with
a bunch of male channelers who were known to be on the
road to madness and suddenly claim to be healed, would be
to descend on the group with sword and fire.
>
> > What I'm saying is that the taint is the really original and extremely
> > complex factor that made the series what it is/was.
>
> Agreed.
>
> And now it's time for the spring to snap, the tension to release, and
> the world to deform under the new stresses.
>
> And as an added benefit, the Asha'man are *not* all sane anyway.
> So we'll have, if the series goes on for long enough, an added axis of
> politics-- not just the personality cults of Rand, Taim, and Logain,
> not just the ontological conflict of how the world (and the White
> Tower) reacts, but the new, young, unequivocally sane members of the
> Black Tower against the older, established, possibly bug-fuck crazy
> members, with Taim, Logain and Rand each claiming that the other two
> are off their rockers.
If anything the taint is still as original and complex,
it has just been turned to catch a different light and
expose even more facets.
> >> Fourth, if he really wants to be cruel, he can claim that the staff
> >> wound from Ishamael that is currently battling the knife wound from
> >> Fain in Rand's side is the same basic thing as the Taint, and will
> >> continue to drive Rand nuts. (But I don't think he will.)
>
> > I just thought that the impending madness was something that made Rand's
> > efforts more heroic, more important and time-constrained, something
> > wonderful to watch as the madness takes over his ability to lead. If he
> > ain't gonna get any worse, where's the hurry to Tarmon Gaidon? Where's
> > the impetus to get there and have it out with the Dark Lord before he's
> > bonkers?
>
> Uh, there's that whole interdimensional Dark Lord of All Unholy still
> pushing against the Seals on his own time table....
Not to mention the unholy number of people who either
won't believe the taint is gone or just think the DR
is expendable and they can do this without him.
Also for those that do believe the taint is gone,
there is the chance that faith in the DR will be lessened.
Do they really need the DR or will any male channeler do,
might be some thinking. Especially among all those 'any'
male channelers.
>
> > And more importantly...where's the impetus for Jordan to get the story there?
>
> I dunno.
> Where was it after tFoH?
>
> If you find it, please send it to Robert Jordan, c/o Tor Books....
Opinions vary, obviously. But I don't see anything impeding the story
progression one way or another.
>
> >> Fifth, I think it opens up as many interesting avenues as it closes,
> >> especially in the political sense-- how will people react to rumors
> >> that the Taint has been cleansed? How will this affect the White
> >> Tower, and the Red Ajah, in particular?
>
> > Yeah there is that.
> > But the plot elements it closes...
>
> Have been done, already.
The point is nothing is really on a broad scale.
On an individual scale it just shifts a bit. Different
view,same scenary in many ways.
>
> > One final comment about Martin's series...I'm sorry to be so fuckin' pushy
> > about it with all that Tyrion shit and all.
>
> No problem.
> But there's really not much I can imagine you saying that's going to
> change my mind, here. It just Doesn't Work for me.
>
> > So is it just me? Do any of you get "upset" that you can't convince
> > someone to read something that you consider brilliant?
>
> I was marginally annoyed that not everyone realizes the brillance and
> masterwork that is the Neverness cycle (but NOT the Ea cycle) by
> Zindell.
>
> I got over it, though.
Sidebar: did you everget around to reading The Chosen
by Ricardo Pinto?
As for Martin, I certainly enjoy him to a greater extent
than either Pam or Novak. But I do get a bit annoyed
at the beatification Martin is getting of late.
He writes okay. His political grasp though is no greater
than his ability to read history. I'll leave it at that
I think.
[snip rest]
---
JSH
Dave Rothgery
> j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote in message:
> > Why is this TAN'd, again?
> >
> > In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
> >
> > >> Tastes, they do vary.
> >
> > ...So assume there are IMO's or some such sprinkled through this.
> I think that saving the cleansing for the grand
> finale would have been cheap and a bit trite.
> This way we get what Novak mentions as well as
> the wonderful complication that the removal of the
> taint provides.
>
> How many are really going to believe that the taint
> is gone? How many are really going to trust any
> male channeler. Imagine the possibilities this creates?
> Embittered Asha'man who are still treated as rabid dogs
> despite having no rabies certainly could provide an
> even more interesting motive for joining the Shadow.
Also note that the men of the Black Tower are 500 guys selected largely
at random and put through a couple months of quick-and-dirty training --
not the years of training and social conditioning one is put through to
become an Aes Sedai, Windfinder, or Wise One. It's quite possible that a
number of them have mental stability issues that have nothing to do with
the Taint.
> Removal of the taint also makes for a grander stage
> for the the vicious political arena Jordan has created
> for control of the Black Tower.
As a meta-plot note, removal of the taint also lets Jordan get away from
the hyper-compressed timeline of the later books (especially the last
three, but I don't think any book after the first two covered more than
two months). I'd really rather not deal with three books where Elayne
has morning sickness.
> > > They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who are evil
> > > but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing to the Dark
> > > One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
> >
> > Oh, I strongly suspect not.
> > Taim is still there mucking around, and Logain is still a magnet for
> > trouble, no matter how well intentioned.
> >
> > Now, though, they have to make an honest choice between good and evil.
> > They can't take the easy way out and complain that they were tempted
> > through protection of the Taint.
> >
>
> What is more it adds a whole new level to the male
> Forsaken machinations.
Eh.
There aren't enough surviving male Forsaken (even if you count
Haliman'gar) to have machinations. Bethamel's safely in a female body.
Ishamael's nuts and may well be the only one who really beleives in the
DO's big plan. So it's pretty much Demandred we're talking about here.
> > Uh, there's that whole interdimensional Dark Lord of All Unholy still
> > pushing against the Seals on his own time table....
>
> Not to mention the unholy number of people who either
> won't believe the taint is gone or just think the DR
> is expendable and they can do this without him.
>
> Also for those that do believe the taint is gone,
> there is the chance that faith in the DR will be lessened.
> Do they really need the DR or will any male channeler do,
> might be some thinking. Especially among all those 'any'
> male channelers.
Since about the only things he's done that any sufficiently powerful
male channeler couldn't are unite the Aiel and draw Callandor the first
time, and the only other thing he's done that any sufficiently powerful
channeler (or circle of channelers) couldn't do is cleanse the taint,
I've wondered about that myself.
--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drot...@alum.wpi.edu
http://drothgery.editthispage.com
David Chapman
news:cbdd023e.01122...@posting.google.com...
> j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote in message:
> >
> > > They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who are
evil
> > > but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing to the
Dark
> > > One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
> >
> > Oh, I strongly suspect not.
> > Taim is still there mucking around, and Logain is still a magnet for
> > trouble, no matter how well intentioned.
> >
> > Now, though, they have to make an honest choice between good and evil.
> > They can't take the easy way out and complain that they were tempted
> > through protection of the Taint.
> >
>
> What is more it adds a whole new level to the male
> Forsaken machinations.
Indeed. The one thing I would like to see in the story,
more than anything else (except the fuckin' *end*), is
one of the Forsaken returning to the Light.
>
>
> > >> Third, just cleansing the Taint doesn't actually take away Rand's
> > >> madness or any of the existing madness in the Black Tower. It just
> > >> halts the progression, in the fashion of going into a Stedding.
> > >> (Unless Jordan does something goofy, on that account.) So basically,
> > >> Jordan has his major Asha'man characters at the stage of madness that
> > >> he wants them to be at, and rather than letting them continue to
> > >> degenerate into gibbering lunacy, he's going to keep them there.
> >
> > > Functioning, is where he has them.
> >
> > As he should.
> > Gibbering madness thrills me not.
> >
> > I get enough of that at work.
> >
> > ("I have read your specifications. They violate the laws of physics."
> > "Gaa hurz-oo vabba! Nyehhye! Nyehhye!"
> > "Stop slobbering on my desk, and get out. Go write a real spec.")
>
>
> That said, there is also the prospect already mentioned
> that some Asha'man are already on the verge of madness
> if not right over the edge. Makes for some different scenarios.
Asha'man: "We don't go mad any more!"
Lynch mob: "What about that guy, then?"
Asha: "Oh, don't mind him. He's always been a bit odd."
Mob: "OK, sorry, our bad."
Yeah, right.
David Chapman
news:MPG.168e3f76b0cac80a989b5f@news-server...
> J.Hamby <jha...@cub.kcnet.org> wrote:
<Removal of the taint>
> > What is more it adds a whole new level to the male
> > Forsaken machinations.
>
> Eh.
> There aren't enough surviving male Forsaken (even if you count
> Haliman'gar) to have machinations. Bethamel's safely in a female body.
But still channels saidar. Your point?
Frank van Schie
David Chapman wrote:
>
> > Eh.
> > There aren't enough surviving male Forsaken (even if you count
> > Haliman'gar) to have machinations. Bethamel's safely in a female body.
>
> But still channels saidar. Your point?
Saidin. HTH.
(you should start proofreading for Orbit, you'd feel right at home :-)
--
Frank
He paused. Regrouped. He was cold, standing in a wood, talking
to a big black bird who was currently brunching on Bambi. "Okay.
What I'm trying to say is I don't want mysteries."
-- Neil Gaiman, _American Gods_
Frank van Schie
"John S. Novak, III" wrote:
>
> Appropos of very little, does anyone happen to have on tape the
> episode of 24 that aired the week of December 9th, or know when it
> will be rebroadcast?
>
> I managed to miss it not once, but twice.
If you know the episode name or, perhaps better, the episode number, you
could try a search in Morpheus. It's banner-ad crap, but at least it
appears to be spyware free, and you can usually find quite a bit in it.
And while yes, it is generally crappy video quality, you could consider
that the price for missing a regular broadcast and a rerun.
David Chapman
news:3C24E049...@hoopyfroods.org...
>
>
> David Chapman wrote:
> >
> > > Eh.
> > > There aren't enough surviving male Forsaken (even if you count
> > > Haliman'gar) to have machinations. Bethamel's safely in a female body.
> >
> > But still channels saidar. Your point?
>
> Saidin. HTH.
Hey, don't blame me - if the fuckin' *author* can't
keep it straight, how can you expect *me* to manage?
Paul Raj Khangure
> I was marginally annoyed that not everyone realizes the brillance and
> masterwork that is the Neverness cycle (but NOT the Ea cycle) by
> Zindell.
Perhaps your approach of calling people "Filthy Australian Meme
Slellers" was a little lacking in persuasion.
Paul Raj Khangure
--
I stayed up all last night playing poker with tarot cards.
I got a full house and four people died. - Stephen Wright
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Frank van Schie
David Chapman wrote:
>
> > Saidin. HTH.
>
> Hey, don't blame me - if the fuckin' *author* can't
> keep it straight, how can you expect *me* to manage?
I don't, but I offer helpful advice when I am able.
Gustavo Fischer
noticias MPG.168e3f76b0cac80a989b5f@news-server...
> J.Hamby <jha...@cub.kcnet.org> wrote:
> > j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote in message:
> > > Why is this TAN'd, again?
> > > In article <mloy-21120...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
> > > >> Tastes, they do vary.
> > >
> > > ...So assume there are IMO's or some such sprinkled through this.
> [...]
> > > > They're gonna be warriors for the Light...except for those who
are evil
> > > > but they didn't have to worry about the taint because swearing
to the Dark
> > > > One would've gotten rid of their pesky little problem anyway.
> > >
> > > Oh, I strongly suspect not.
> > > Taim is still there mucking around, and Logain is still a magnet
for
> > > trouble, no matter how well intentioned.
> > >
> > > Now, though, they have to make an honest choice between good and
evil.
> > > They can't take the easy way out and complain that they were
tempted
> > > through protection of the Taint.
> > >
> >
> > What is more it adds a whole new level to the male
> > Forsaken machinations.
>
> Eh.
> There aren't enough surviving male Forsaken (even if you count
> Haliman'gar) to have machinations. Bethamel's safely in a female body.
> Ishamael's nuts and may well be the only one who really beleives in
the
> DO's big plan. So it's pretty much Demandred we're talking about here.
I hope there will be new Forsaken, or at least Dreadlords (Taim?).
> > > Uh, there's that whole interdimensional Dark Lord of All Unholy
still
> > > pushing against the Seals on his own time table....
> >
> > Not to mention the unholy number of people who either
> > won't believe the taint is gone or just think the DR
> > is expendable and they can do this without him.
> >
> > Also for those that do believe the taint is gone,
> > there is the chance that faith in the DR will be lessened.
> > Do they really need the DR or will any male channeler do,
> > might be some thinking. Especially among all those 'any'
> > male channelers.
> Since about the only things he's done that any sufficiently powerful
> male channeler couldn't are unite the Aiel and draw Callandor the
first
> time, and the only other thing he's done that any sufficiently
powerful
> channeler (or circle of channelers) couldn't do is cleanse the taint,
> I've wondered about that myself.
Wouldn´t all this create a stronger belief in the DR instead?
If people buy that the taint is cleansed...
--
Gustavo Fischer - g...@montevideo.com.uy
"Against stupidity, the gods themselves fight in vain"
Friedrich von Schiller
iceberg
wrote:
>Was reading threads concerning other writers of this wildly creative
>genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
>to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
>versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
>other paragraph (Read: Goodkind). After wallowing through the drek
of
>that hack's writing, and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
>Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
>buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
>where to start. I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
>(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
>Any help about these guys, or anyone other the O.S. Card, would be
>most appreciative.
I have been reading Sheri Tepper and enjoying it.
Iceberg
Sam Worf
>In article <3C23A4...@webspan.net>, Richard Boye' wrote:
>
>> Basically, it means that a series (television, books, what-have-you) has
>> reached its peak of creativity and enjoyability and is on the downward
>> spiral. The "jumping of the shark" is the turning point.
>
>No, jumping the shark is the point of no return.
>Jumping the shark is when the series has no possibility of ever living
>down whatever perfidy the writers have committed, and is destined to
>be forever more Just Plain Stupid.
>
>Other than that, yes.
I think "jumped the shark" is a term that can only be applied in hindsight,
after a particular work has been completed. Just because a continuing work has
turned stupid doesn't mean it can't get good again. Come back after Tarmon
Gaidon and then you can state when WoT jumped the shark.
--
// / Sam Worf
GCV 3.12 \X/ / samworf-AT-newsguy-DOT-com
GFA d- s-: a28 C+(+++)>$ UI(--) W+(-) N+ w+(--) M+(--) PS++
PE- Y+ t+(---) 5+++(-) X+ R tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G e++ !y+
Pure electric EV-1 / Accept no substitute!
---------------------------/-------------------------------
IMPORTANT: WHEN CORRESPONDING BY EMAIL, INCLUDE THE WORD
notspam IN THE SUBJECT LINE OR YOUR MESSAGE WILL BE TRASHED
Michael Hoye
Sam Worf <decem...@samworf.mailshell.com> wrote:
>j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>
>>No, jumping the shark is the point of no return.
>>Jumping the shark is when the series has no possibility of ever living
>>down whatever perfidy the writers have committed, and is destined to
>>be forever more Just Plain Stupid.
>
>hindsight, after a particular work has been completed.
I beg to differ. To jump the shark is to achieve escape velocity from
any possible artistic redemption. Anything less, and it's possible
that if everything else goes well, you're still able to fall back
into some kind of quality. If you're being sucked away from that
dramatic core fast enough, though, you're screwed.
--
Mike Hoye
Karan Juneja
"iceberg" <rha...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3c2f6662...@nntp.cts.com...
> On 18 Dec 2001 13:47:24 -0800, edgel...@yahoo.com (Erin O'Toole)
> wrote:
>
> >Was reading threads concerning other writers of this wildly creative
> >genre that seems to attract people who think that since they knew how
> >to write in grade-school, they can write about dragons, magic, Good
> >versus Evil, and a cast of bland characters that seem to cry every
> >other paragraph (Read: Goodkind). After wallowing through the drek
> of
> >that hack's writing,
Too true... Goodkind just can't get to epic/classic status
> >and waiting for the next Jordan book of Going
> >Nowhere, I would like suggestions on stuff I haven't read before. My
> >buddy Matt kept on telling me to read Pratchett, but didn't suggest
> >where to start.
Pratchett is definetly one to read. His view on the Fantasy Genre is
refreshing,
a lot like Douglas Adams in Sci-Fi. Best place to start is The Color of
Magic.
After that, it's up to you what you would prefer. Pratchett is very open and
no
specific start point is required.
> > I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
> >(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
G. R. R. Martin should start around Storm of Swords, but it's been a long
time so please don't depend on me...
Chris Hammock
Not depending would be right.
The order of the three books out so far is _A Game of Thrones_,
_A Clash of Kings_, and _A Storm of Swords_.
--
Chris Hammock zal...@nocturne.org
Leigh Butler
<k...@bredband.net> wrote:
<snippety>
>Other authors to recommend are:
>
>Robin Hobb, with _Assassin's Apprentice_ and sequels, and
>_Ship of Magic_ and sequels (both series are finished). The
>Assassin's series is very gloomy and depressing fantasy, but
>very well-written. The Ship books are more conventional, but
>still quite original.
Two things:
I just finished the Assassin books, and I mostly agree with your
assessment, except that I would add that the depressing-ness of the
series, IMO, pretty much eclipses the quality of the writing. I was
sorely tempted to throw the book across the room after reading the
last paragraph, just for being so mean to me. Bah.
The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
probably buy it.
*shrug* Sometimes I ain't logical.
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>Steven Brust. I like all his books, his "Vlad Taltos" series is most
>popular (everybody besides Thor likes it). There is an omnibus edition
>of the first 3 novels, called _The Book of Jhereg_, or something like
>that. Good fun.
I finally got around to Brust over the holidays, BTW. Read _Jhereg_ on
the plane to New Orleans, and enjoyed it. Not exactly what I was
expecting, but I found the style amusing. Time will tell if it begins
to wear on me or not... I'll probably pick up whatever the next book
is soon.
So, thanks to everyone in here who recommended it. Good find.
>Guy Gavriel Kay. Heftier and more literary than most fantasy dudes,
>lots of people cite him as the best modern fantasy author. _Tigana_ is
>very good, and not part of a series, which is a bonus.
Heartily seconded, natch.
After a Faaaabulous way-long vacation, I'm catching up on about thirty
zillion articles, so I'll wait to see whether or not I have to
complain about not getting a certain book report from someone...
Mike Miller
Happy Days latter episodes. The struggling series was desperate for
viewership so included a ridiculous gimmick. Jordan is hardly at that
stage. It is an act of desperation.
"Frank van Schie" <fv...@hoopyfroods.org> wrote in message
news:3C24E049...@hoopyfroods.org...
>
>
John S. Novak, III
> The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
> a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
> nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
> irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
> probably buy it.
1) Hobb is a she.
2) Yes, and apparently it's out... somewhere... but I haven't seen it.
Kate Nepveu
> > The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
> > a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
> > nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
> > irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
> > probably buy it.
> 1) Hobb is a she.
> 2) Yes, and apparently it's out... somewhere... but I haven't seen it.
It's a new series with Fitz, not a fourth Assassin book, if that matters
(_Fool's Errand_); I've seen it, so I'm sure it will be in a bookstore
near you soon.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Clive Evans
wrote:
>j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>> In article <3c39fd98....@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>
>> > The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
>> > a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
>> > nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
>> > irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
>> > probably buy it.
>
>> 1) Hobb is a she.
>> 2) Yes, and apparently it's out... somewhere... but I haven't seen it.
>
>It's a new series with Fitz, not a fourth Assassin book, if that matters
>(_Fool's Errand_); I've seen it, so I'm sure it will be in a bookstore
>near you soon.
Released some time ago in the UK, if not the rest of the world. Much
less systematically depressing than the Assassin trilogy, and the
characters are more likeable than the Liveship trilogy.
I pretty much devoured it, but then I can be quite undiscriminating at
times ...
Clive
--
Clive
"Black holes are where god divides by zero." -- Unknown
Mani Annamalai
> j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
> > In article <3c39fd98....@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>
> > > The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
> > > a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
> > > nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
> > > irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
> > > probably buy it.
>
> > 1) Hobb is a she.
> > 2) Yes, and apparently it's out... somewhere... but I haven't seen it.
>
> It's a new series with Fitz, not a fourth Assassin book, if that matters
> (_Fool's Errand_); I've seen it, so I'm sure it will be in a bookstore
> near you soon.
>
Nothing much to add, except that the new series is called the Tawny
Man (Trilogy?), which is probably the worst name for a series that
I've heard of. Ever.
Mani Annamalai
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell -
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."
-- Lucifer, 'Paradise Lost', Milton.
Cheryl
Butler) wrote:
>
>The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
>a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
>nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
>irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
>probably buy it.
>
There is a new series about Fitz and the first one is out in
Australia so I guess that's what you're talking about. It's set at
least 16 years after the end of the last Assassin one because his
son has grown up. I haven't read it yet but I did spot it in a
bookstore two days before Christmas and I'm waiting for the finances
to pick up again so I can buy it..
--
Cheryl van Tienhoven
Aaron Bergman
<leigh_...@paramount.com> wrote:
> I finally got around to Brust over the holidays, BTW. Read _Jhereg_ on
> the plane to New Orleans, and enjoyed it. Not exactly what I was
> expecting, but I found the style amusing. Time will tell if it begins
> to wear on me or not... I'll probably pick up whatever the next book
> is soon.
I think _Yendi_ is hard to find outside the omnibus. Be aware that
there is a tone change with _Teckla_.
Aaron
Dave Rothgery
Peeve: The Book of Taltos is apparently a two-book omnibus instead of a
3 book. But I guess if Ace is going to repackage the 7 books they have
rights too (Dragon, Issola, and the Khaarven books are published by
Tor), they had to either do a 3-4 or 3-2-2.
!Peeve: It's available now, so I'll finally get to read Phoenix when it
shows up. Then I'll just need Athyra (or an Athyra/Orca omnibus if I'm
guessing right) and Issola (waiting for paperback) to have all the Vlad
books.
Christopher Tong
Dave Rothgery wrote:
>
> Aaron Bergman <aber...@princeton.edu> wrote:
<snip>
> > I think _Yendi_ is hard to find outside the omnibus. Be aware that
> > there is a tone change with _Teckla_.
I found _Yendi_ easier to find than _Teckla_... but got the omnibus
anyway. Most of the used copies hereabouts are fairly tattered.
> Peeve: The Book of Taltos is apparently a two-book omnibus instead of a
> 3 book. But I guess if Ace is going to repackage the 7 books they have
> rights too (Dragon, Issola, and the Khaarven books are published by
> Tor), they had to either do a 3-4 or 3-2-2.
It's a 3-book omnibus: _Jhereg_, _Yendi_ and _Teckla_. ISTR that Ace is
going to release a 4-book omnibus next.
Chris
Dave Rothgery
> Dave Rothgery wrote:
> > Peeve: The Book of Taltos is apparently a two-book omnibus instead of a
> > 3 book. But I guess if Ace is going to repackage the 7 books they have
> > rights too (Dragon, Issola, and the Khaarven books are published by
> > Tor), they had to either do a 3-4 or 3-2-2.
>
> It's a 3-book omnibus: _Jhereg_, _Yendi_ and _Teckla_. ISTR that Ace is
> going to release a 4-book omnibus next.
That's _The Book of Jhereg_. _The Book of Taltos_ was just released,
and according to bn.com (where I bought it; should be here in a day or
three), says it's just Taltos and Phoenix.
--
Dave Rothgery
Jason Kraftcheck
>
[snip]
>
> That's _The Book of Jhereg_. _The Book of Taltos_ was just released,
> and according to bn.com (where I bought it; should be here in a day or
> three), says it's just Taltos and Phoenix.
>
As there seems to be some doubt, I thought i'd de-lurk for a moment
to confirm that _The Book of Taltos_ is just Taltos and Phoenix. I
picked it up last night.
--
Jason Kraftcheck
Leigh Butler
<disgruntled>
Well, I just made a B&N visit, and couldn't find either. They didn't
have the omnibus edition either, which I would have probably bought
even though I already have _Jhereg_ by itself.
(I saw it at the B&N in Calabasas a while back, though, so maybe if I
end up going to see a movie on the Big Scary Screen in the Commons
this weekend I'll mosey over there and try again.)
So instead I bought Stephen King's _Dreamcatcher_, which just came out
in paperback, and am about halfway through. Not sure what I think of
it. I mean, King's never been especially shy about the gross-out
factor, but Jesus H. Christ.
Though some bits are very cool, I was almost physically ill reading
the first death scene in the book. I know the movie rights have
already been snapped up, and all I can think is "They're going to
_show_ that?" Bleeaaahh.
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
>> In article <3c39fd98....@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>
>> > The other thing is that someone told me that Hobb's supposedly writing
>> > a fourth Assassin book. Anyone know if this has any validity? I saw
>> > nothing about it on Amazon... because oddly enough, despite my
>> > irritation with the trilogy, if he did publish a fourth book, I'd
>> > probably buy it.
>
>> 1) Hobb is a she.
Oops.
>> 2) Yes, and apparently it's out... somewhere... but I haven't seen it.
>
>It's a new series with Fitz, not a fourth Assassin book, if that matters
>(_Fool's Errand_); I've seen it, so I'm sure it will be in a bookstore
>near you soon.
Ah. I see it now, on Amazon. The Tawny Man thing threw me, and of
course I couldn't be bothered to read synopses.
Danke. Though I doubt I'll get it until it comes out in paperback -
hardcover purchases are for the privledged few.
Lance Dunkelberger
noticed your comment "Leigh" that you were on a plane to New Orleans, are
you from there? I'm from right outside N.O.
"Leigh Butler" <leigh_...@paramount.com> wrote in message
news:3c39fdae....@news.cis.dfn.de...
scifantasy
>I'm new here, I was wondering if it's o.k. to ask where people are from. I
>noticed your comment "Leigh" that you were on a plane to New Orleans, are
>you from there? I'm from right outside N.O.
Well, if you're new, here's a few helpful tips.
1) Don't toppost (what you did). Do bottompost (what I did).
2) Read the FAQ's:
Wheel of Time FAQ:
http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan
RASFWR-J FAQ:
http://www.landfield.com/faqs/sf/robert-jordan-faq/
(recombine that URL)
3) Be kind, or at least, don't be antagonistic for antagonism's sake.
4) Attribute, which you did albeit incorrectly.
Specifically: On the whole, people give their real names and personal
info like that (I'm an exception, for reasons I'm not going into
again...), so you don't have to put "Leigh" in quotes, and yes, it's
OK to ask where people are from. Though many of us knw that already.
Any more, gentlebeings?
Oh, and regarding Leigh, I was under the impression that she was from
the California area, probably due to the Paramount tag. That's
supported by the sheer number of California DFS's (see the RASFWR-J
FAQ) she's been reported at...
*googling*
Turns out I appear to be right. My guess is that New Orleans was her
vacation spot.
--
scifantasy
"RTF*"
Lance Dunkelberger
"scifantasy" <scif...@ANTI-SPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:3c3b985e...@news.optonline.net...
Is this correct? Don't want to step on anyone's toes. Thanks for the
information. I usually do an alias as well but didn't feel like setting one
up.(lazy I guess).
scifantasy
>Is this correct? Don't want to step on anyone's toes. Thanks for the
>information. I usually do an alias as well but didn't feel like setting one
>up.(lazy I guess).
Lucky you, then.
Well, with regard to toe-stepping, two things.
1) Shorten the line lengths a tad. 72 or so characters is OK.
2) Don't quote everything. Only what's relevant. (Especially delete
signatures, the stuff below the "-- ")
Lurk for a while; you'll get the hang of it.
--
scifantasy
"RTF*"
Hawk
:Oh, and regarding Leigh, I was under the impression that she was from
:the California area, probably due to the Paramount tag. That's
:supported by the sheer number of California DFS's (see the RASFWR-J
:FAQ) she's been reported at...
From California? She lives in California, but I wouldn't say she's from
California.
:*googling*
:Turns out I appear to be right. My guess is that New Orleans was her
:vacation spot.
*snicker*
Hawk
[I should leave this for Leigh to answer, but I was bored.]
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of hawks, for we are fond of raking with our
talons.
Maggie
<snip>
> Oh, and regarding Leigh, I was under the impression that she was from
> the California area, probably due to the Paramount tag. That's
> supported by the sheer number of California DFS's (see the RASFWR-J
> FAQ) she's been reported at...
>
> *googling*
>
> Turns out I appear to be right. My guess is that New Orleans was her
> vacation spot.
You would be incorrect.
Leigh's a California transplant, not a native.
Miss Leigh is a New Orleans native.
--
Maggie UIN 10248195 http://www.darkfriends.net
"Shadow found himself thinking about a garage in San Clemente with box
after box of rare, strange and beautiful books in it rotting away, all
of them browning and wilting and being eaten by mold and insects in the
darkness, waiting for someone who would never come to set them free."
- Neil Gaiman, cut from _American Gods_
john alt
Lance Dunkelberger stated...
> I'm new here, I was wondering if it's o.k. to ask where people are from. I
> noticed your comment "Leigh" that you were on a plane to New Orleans, are
> you from there? I'm from right outside N.O.
You've already got the pointers from scifantasy. Since she hasn't
fessed up yet, Leigh is originally from New Orleans, somewhere around
the City Park area ISTR. I'm the only other one I've seen that's
admitted to being around here. I live on the north shore and work in
New Orleans East.
There's quite a few RJ fans around Baton Rouge that I hang around
with. The lead singer of Stompin' Ground is my old roommate, and when
he mentioned he liked RJ at a gig we had a mini DFS of about 15 or so
RJ readers during the next break. Several kinda melded into being
freaks (SG groupies). We don't do anything organized, just talk about
what books to read and such. None post to this NG that I know of. I
haven't found any such activity in NO, though I'm sure there is. I
avoid NO for the most part except for Mardi Gras and jazz fest.
Leigh Butler
(scifantasy) wrote:
>Lance Dunkelberger e-mused:
>
>>I'm new here, I was wondering if it's o.k. to ask where people are from. I
>>noticed your comment "Leigh" that you were on a plane to New Orleans, are
>>you from there? I'm from right outside N.O.
<snip>
>Oh, and regarding Leigh, I was under the impression that she was from
>the California area, probably due to the Paramount tag. That's
>supported by the sheer number of California DFS's (see the RASFWR-J
>FAQ) she's been reported at...
>
>*googling*
>
>Turns out I appear to be right. My guess is that New Orleans was her
>vacation spot.
Didn't Google back far enough, m'boy. I've lived in Los Angeles for
over two years now, but I was born and raised in New Orleans. And
interestingly, I actually first started posting to this group from
Austin, TX (where I went to college).
And it's clear from all this that I've been terribly remiss in
starting yet another New Orleans thread!
Welcome to the group, BTW, Lance. Whereabouts outside of N.O.? I grew
up in Lakeview and then moved to River Ridge, myself. (And then moved
to Austin, duh, and then moved back to N.O., and then moved to Baton
Rouge, and then moved back to N.O. _again_, and then moved to Los
Angeles.)
Have I mentioned I hate moving?
Phetsy Calderon
ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote in message news:<2AdU7.29$s4....@news.uchicago.edu>...
> *shrug* Tastes vary, y'know?
Tastes vary, exactly. I enjoyed the book, simply because Martin's
world-building is quite good, and his characters were far enough away
from SF stereotype to keep me interested. But it is very much a matter
of taste.
> And really, I definitely didn't dislike _A Game of Thrones_ the way
> Novak did. It just didn't work for me. The plot didn't move along
> quickly enough
It's certainly not speedy. OTOH, Jordan's been dilly-dallying around
with plot advancement for what? Three? Four? of the last five WOT
volumes now. Which, come to think of it, could pretty well suck up a
reader's quotient of patience for this kind of delay.
>, and I didn't care about most of the characters.
I don't know if I'd say I _cared_ about them, exactly, but I often
wanted to know what the hell they'd get up to next.
>And
> while the prose is quite competant, you must admit that it's
> not the sort that inspires one to read for the sheer pleasure of how
> the author fits words together.
Spot on, but at least he did not arouse the sleeping copy editor in
me. That's pretty good, considering.
> If that makes me insane, so be it, but not reading Martin's great big
> books means that I have time to read stuff like _The Anubis Gates_ and
> _The Thurb Revolution
Oh my gosh, I haven't even thought about Panshin in _years_. I read
"Rite of Passage" when it was first published, and it's still one of
the most memorable books in a reading career that spans some thousands
of SF works. I think I still have that paperback first edition--maybe
up at the cabin. . .
Phetsy
==========================
Phetsy Calloway-Calderon
<phe...@earthlink.net>
Sorry, .sig closed for remodeling
scifantasy
>>Turns out I appear to be right. My guess is that New Orleans was her
>>vacation spot.
>
>Didn't Google back far enough, m'boy. I've lived in Los Angeles for
>over two years now, but I was born and raised in New Orleans. And
>interestingly, I actually first started posting to this group from
>Austin, TX (where I went to college).
*shrug*
--
scifantasy
"RTF*"
Karan Juneja
"Chris Hammock" <zal...@nocturne.org> wrote in message
news:a1775q$oq09g$1...@ID-59100.news.dfncis.de...
> >> > I've read about the praise some of you give Martin
> >> >(G.R.R. ?), but again, where to start?
> >
> > G. R. R. Martin should start around Storm of Swords, but it's been a
long
> > time so please don't depend on me...
>
> Not depending would be right.
>
> The order of the three books out so far is _A Game of Thrones_,
> _A Clash of Kings_, and _A Storm of Swords_.
Apologies... I don't know what I was thinking...
Ryan Chadwick
leigh_...@paramount.com says...
>
> Though some bits are very cool, I was almost physically ill reading
> the first death scene in the book. I know the movie rights have
> already been snapped up, and all I can think is "They're going to
> _show_ that?" Bleeaaahh.
They're filming it up here in Prince George, B.C. They had the
tryouts for extras a few weeks ago, but I couldn't be bothered to
tryout.
--
Ryan Chadwick
Christopher Tong
Uh, er, sorry 'bout that...
I'll just slink away now...
Chris
Paul Raj Khangure
You too can prove this for yourself.
The next time you go to a DFS which she attends, take some plastic beads
with you. At the most opportune time, pull the beads out of your pocket
and wave them near her face. Her New Orlean instincts will kick in, and
she'll flash her breasts for you.
Then, start running.
Paul Raj Khangure
--
I stayed up all last night playing poker with tarot cards.
I got a full house and four people died. - Stephen Wright
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Aaron F. Bourque
>Yep.
>
>You too can prove this for yourself.
Context? Oh, down there, eh?
>The next time you go to a DFS which she attends, take some
>plastic beads with you. At the most opportune time, pull the
>beads out of your pocket and wave them near her face. Her New
>Orlean instincts will kick in, and she'll flash her breasts for you.
Wow. In my experience, New Orleanians hardly ever do this. It's
tourists who show their tits for stupid hunks of plastic.
>Then, start running.
This would be a good idea whether she shows her boobage or not.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
http://delinquents.keenspace.com/d/20010703.html
http://sinner.keenspace.com/ *COMING SOON!* (really)
Damn the tree and all its kind!
Nothing's impossible in the hot soul.
Paul Raj Khangure
> From: Paul Raj Khangure p...@digitaljunkie.net
>>Yep.
>>
>>You too can prove this for yourself.
> Context? Oh, down there, eh?
*sigh*
I'm not having a good run with USENet at the moment.
That was a repost of an article I posted a few days ago. My newsserver
locked and innfeed wasn't passiing the articles upstream, but they
looked fin on my server. So, of course, when I go and repost a week's
worth of articles, I missed a couple of lines on that one.
It should have read:
"In an Age long past, an Age yet to come, Maggie wrote:
> Miss Leigh is a New Orleans native."
>>The next time you go to a DFS which she attends, take some
>>plastic beads with you. At the most opportune time, pull the
>>beads out of your pocket and wave them near her face. Her New
>>Orlean instincts will kick in, and she'll flash her breasts for you.
> Wow. In my experience, New Orleanians hardly ever do this. It's
I know.
But I wasn't willing to let it ruin the opportunity for a joke.
Leigh Butler
wrote:
>Yep.
>
>You too can prove this for yourself.
>
>The next time you go to a DFS which she attends, take some plastic beads
>with you. At the most opportune time, pull the beads out of your pocket
>and wave them near her face. Her New Orlean instincts will kick in, and
>she'll flash her breasts for you.
>
>Then, start running.
*blink* *blink*
I can only assume this refers to me.
I can also assume that you know very little about people who actually
live in New Orleans. We have tourists for that sort of thing.
The running, though, is probably a sound future investment.
Mark Loy
(Leigh Butler) wrote:
> On 16 Jan 2002 03:14:29 GMT, Paul Raj Khangure <p...@digitaljunkie.net>
> wrote:
> >The next time you go to a DFS which she attends, take some plastic beads
> >with you. At the most opportune time, pull the beads out of your pocket
> >and wave them near her face. Her New Orlean instincts will kick in, and
> >she'll flash her breasts for you.
> >
> >Then, start running.
>
> *blink* *blink*
>
> I can only assume this refers to me.
>
> I can also assume that you know very little about people who actually
> live in New Orleans. We have tourists for that sort of thing.
>
> The running, though, is probably a sound future investment.
Okay.
Now we're gettin' somewhere.
A cage match grudge battle of Biblical proportions between Leigh and Paul
at the next International Darkfriend Social.
I'll be there, front row center, to see if I can get me a souvenir fleshy
body part.
ML
(Sure Paul has the size advantage--the great big teddybear guy that he
is--but I'm thinkin' that Leigh'll chew a hole right the fuck hrough his
ass and come out the other side spittin' gnawed pelvic bone at the
unwashed masses. I got twenty bucks says I'm right. Any takers?)
Paul Raj Khangure
> A cage match grudge battle of Biblical proportions between Leigh and Paul
> at the next International Darkfriend Social.
> (Sure Paul has the size advantage--the great big teddybear guy that he
(Un?)fortunately, some 80 pounds of that size advantage was lost last year.
So I'd have to put my money on Leigh too.