Unified Cyndane Theory
Casey
it occured to me that the problem could be solved if Moridin didn't
know that Cyndane was Lanfear. She isn't as strong as Lanfear, and
unless Moridin can read all her thoughts through the mindtrap, it
seems like this is a possibility.
I think a unified Cyndane theory could account for a number of
remaining mysteries:
1. Lanfear killed Asmodean. She used her first wish with the Aelfinn
to appear briefly in the palace and slaughter him. This accounts for
Asmodean's ("You? No!") reaction and RJ's ("obvious") comment.
2. She used her second wish to imprison Moiraine?
3. She used her third wish to gain a new body. She fooled Moridin
but not Shaidar Haran and/or the DO (if they are not, in fact, one and
the same) and so she was mindtrapped. Moridin doesn't know why, but
he goes along with it anyway.
4. The "price" she paid was the loss of a significant amount of her
power.
A corallary to this theory is that Moridin doesn't know everything. I
think the DO is really holding the Nae'blis position open: he promised
to Demandred, who doesn't seem bitter about the whole thing, right now
he's letting Moridin believe he's in charge, but everything's open to
change.
I'm sure this is full of holes, please respond.
Matthew Kuhl
Sounds plausible to me. As I've said before, the DO is notorious for
an attitude that is pretty much "survival of the fittest." Also, the
DO isn't always open with information, if it doesn't suit his
purposes. The thing is, why wouldn't it suit his purposes for Moridin
to know that Cyndane was Lanfear? Even without the DO telling him,
Moridin is a clever fellow, I'm sure he could figure it out for
himself.
Matthew
Brinner
Casey wrote:
> I was reading the FAQ section about Moridin's nine sha'rah players and
> it occured to me that the problem could be solved if Moridin didn't
> know that Cyndane was Lanfear. She isn't as strong as Lanfear, and
> unless Moridin can read all her thoughts through the mindtrap, it
> seems like this is a possibility.
>
> I think a unified Cyndane theory could account for a number of
> remaining mysteries:
>
> 1. Lanfear killed Asmodean. She used her first wish with the Aelfinn
> to appear briefly in the palace and slaughter him. This accounts for
> Asmodean's ("You? No!") reaction and RJ's ("obvious") comment.
Could be right, I still think it was Graendal though.
> 2. She used her second wish to imprison Moiraine?
>
> 3. She used her third wish to gain a new body. She fooled Moridin
> but not Shaidar Haran and/or the DO (if they are not, in fact, one and
> the same) and so she was mindtrapped. Moridin doesn't know why, but
> he goes along with it anyway.
Possible.
> 4. The "price" she paid was the loss of a significant amount of her
> power.
Makes sense.
> A corallary to this theory is that Moridin doesn't know everything. I
> think the DO is really holding the Nae'blis position open: he promised
> to Demandred, who doesn't seem bitter about the whole thing, right now
> he's letting Moridin believe he's in charge, but everything's open to
> change.
I don't think the DO is holding the Nae'blis position open at all. If
he wins TG he smashes the wheel of time, therefore everything within
the WOT will cease to be. The only one who understands this is Moridin/
Ishy. He may dangle the Nae'blis carrot in front of Demandred alright
to keep him in line.
> I'm sure this is full of holes, please respond.
Not too many holes.
Brinner
Legolas
news:ada7360b-daa6-42a8...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't think the DO is holding the Nae'blis position open at all. If
> he wins TG he smashes the wheel of time, therefore everything within
> the WOT will cease to be. The only one who understands this is
> Moridin/
> Ishy. He may dangle the Nae'blis carrot in front of Demandred alright
> to keep him in line.
>
You just put your finger on something that has been bothering me
unconsciously for a long time. A big hole in the story. Why would people
(the 13 forsaken) follow this god who wants to destroy existance as they
know it? We have no info on what else there is apart from that
'creation' they exist in, but their motivations have been mentioned and
I didn't get the impression they were of a religious nature, like
'eternal life' outside of this creation which they are helping to
destroy.
Happy ending: The forsaken will realise this at the last moment and side
up with Rand & Co. to preserve their universe (and themselves).
--
Legolas
Casey
> > I don't think the DO is holding the Nae'blis position open at all. If
> > he wins TG he smashes the wheel of time, therefore everything within
> > the WOT will cease to be. The only one who understands this is
> > Moridin/
> > Ishy. He may dangle the Nae'blis carrot in front of Demandred alright
> > to keep him in line.
>
> You just put your finger on something that has been bothering me
> unconsciously for a long time. A big hole in the story. Why would people
> (the 13 forsaken) follow this god who wants to destroy existance as they
> know it? We have no info on what else there is apart from that
> 'creation' they exist in, but their motivations have been mentioned and
> I didn't get the impression they were of a religious nature, like
> 'eternal life' outside of this creation which they are helping to
> destroy.
Well we have 2 versions what the DO wants: one is, the DO wants to
"remake every Age in his own image". I would imagine this means that
there would still be a world (think: blight everywhere), with humanity
enslaved and the Nae'blis in charge of it all.
The other version is, as you point out, the DO wanting to break the
wheel of time. Now, this could be part of the remaking above: the
wheel weaves the pattern, the pattern makes up the ages, so the DO
would have to "break" the WoT and weave his own pattern. Or it could
mean the end of existence. I think there was a loony theory floated
some time back that Nae'blis really means "last to die". Father of
Lies indeed.
Arno Wagner
>> > I don't think the DO is holding the Nae'blis position open at all. If
>> > he wins TG he smashes the wheel of time, therefore everything within
>> > the WOT will cease to be. The only one who understands this is
>> > Moridin/
>> > Ishy. He may dangle the Nae'blis carrot in front of Demandred alright
>> > to keep him in line.
>>
>> You just put your finger on something that has been bothering me
>> unconsciously for a long time. A big hole in the story. Why would people
>> (the 13 forsaken) follow this god who wants to destroy existance as they
>> know it? We have no info on what else there is apart from that
>> 'creation' they exist in, but their motivations have been mentioned and
>> I didn't get the impression they were of a religious nature, like
>> 'eternal life' outside of this creation which they are helping to
>> destroy.
> Well we have 2 versions what the DO wants: one is, the DO wants to
> "remake every Age in his own image". I would imagine this means that
> there would still be a world (think: blight everywhere), with humanity
> enslaved and the Nae'blis in charge of it all.
Sounds very boring.
> The other version is, as you point out, the DO wanting to break the
> wheel of time. Now, this could be part of the remaking above: the
> wheel weaves the pattern, the pattern makes up the ages, so the DO
> would have to "break" the WoT and weave his own pattern. Or it could
> mean the end of existence. I think there was a loony theory floated
> some time back that Nae'blis really means "last to die". Father of
> Lies indeed.
I agree to this. Extended suicide sounds entirely in character.
Arno
manf...@aol.com
just my opinion but
>
> 2. She used her second wish to imprison Moiraine?
>
how comes Lanfear gets a wish and Moiraine doesnt?
I think Lanfear straight away wished to kill Asmodean without thinking
of what she was doing. As Asmodean is connected to the shadow or for
what ever reason the result was the finns killed her and she was
recycled by the DO. Moridin knows who she is else why mindtrap her?
I think Moraine never used her wishes as she is clever enough to avoid
the consequences, besides she knows Thom is coming to save her.
I think the mention of 9 players is just RJ making a mistake, i.e. he
killed of Sammael in the previous book and didn't bother working out
the dates.
Casey
> Hi,
> just my opinion but
>
>
>
> > 2. She used her second wish to imprison Moiraine?
>
> how comes Lanfear gets a wish and Moiraine doesnt?
>
> I think Lanfear straight away wished to kill Asmodean without thinking
> of what she was doing. As Asmodean is connected to the shadow or for
> what ever reason the result was the finns killed her and she was
> recycled by the DO. Moridin knows who she is else why mindtrap her?
The problem with this is the loss of power. It didn't occur for any
of the other Forsaken. Her thoughts at the end of WH: "She was even
stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held
her". Not "before she died and was reborn".
> I think the mention of 9 players is just RJ making a mistake, i.e. he
> killed of Sammael in the previous book and didn't bother working out
> the dates.
This does seem to be a possibility. However, I don't think it would
be possible to cohesively write the WoT without working out the
timeline before you sit down to write. The phrasing Moridin uses as
well as the existence of the scene seem to imply that he was trying to
leave us a clue, not just throwing a figure out there that makes
complete sense.
Tim Bruening
Legolas wrote:
Ishamael favors the total destruction of everything. As far as I know, the
other Chosen do not favor total destruction, so should be appalled by the
Great Lord's Total Destruction Plan.
Someone should get the word out to all the Darkfriends about the Total
Destruction Of Everything Plan.