COTFAQ, Parte the Thirde: Egwene and Halima [SPOILERS]
Leigh Butler
(BTW, I'm not even touching the Sitter Mystery right now. Besides, I
see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
Once again, as in TPOD, Egwene and the Rebel AS Hall shenanigans
represent most of the best writing in the entire book. COT begins to
pick up steam the moment Eg makes her first appearance - in chapter
fifteen. (I'm digging the groove, man, I'm digging the groove...)
Anyway:
Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
(Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
you, Rich, right?)
I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
Eg is only a puppet.
What gives?
Some other Eg-related stuff:
***
Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
***
What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
met yet is my guess. Any others?
Tim Mixdorf
"Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
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SNIP
>
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
>
My guess is that in addition to the chain, she was was going to change the
mechanism that lowers it into cuendillar as well, perhaps making it
impossible to lower, and impossible to remove (since cuendillar cannot be
broken.) This would block the harbors, eliminating Tar Valon's only source
of new supplies. I could be completely wrong here, of course, but that's
all that I can think of.
Also, the chain doesn't block the rebels from Tar Valon. They can gate in
whenever they feel like it.
Laurent Leconte
If you'll recall the discussions in Salidar about previous Tower sieges, we
learned that Hawking could not defeat the White Tower because he could't
block the harbors (AS channelling cleaning whatever Hawking's armies dumped
in front of the harbors). Cuendillar can't be destroyed, so no ships at all
can enter North Harbour, so no food or soldiers can get in. Now it's just a
matter of starving them out.
>
> ***
> What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
> latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
> guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
> met yet is my guess. Any others?
>
>
--
Laurent
---
Remove "I hate spam" to send me mail
Mark Brimicombe
"Laurent Leconte" <Laurent.Le...@SPAMwanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:avju4h$ak8$1...@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr...
> "Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
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> > Some other Eg-related stuff:
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> > ***
> > Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> > turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> > cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> > course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
>
> If you'll recall the discussions in Salidar about previous Tower sieges,
we
> learned that Hawking could not defeat the White Tower because he could't
> block the harbors (AS channelling cleaning whatever Hawking's armies
dumped
> in front of the harbors). Cuendillar can't be destroyed, so no ships at
all
> can enter North Harbour, so no food or soldiers can get in. Now it's just
a
> matter of starving them out.
>
>
one
solid and unbvreakable piece, the chain can only be removed by destroying a
part
of the harbour walls.
James Bremner
markbri...@hotmail.com says...
I havent read the book yet, but if this is what the SAS have done, then
it looks to me like we are settling into a siege. Hurrah! Just what the
series needed, a nice long siege!
Michael Martin
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> (BTW, I'm not even touching the Sitter Mystery right now. Besides, I
> see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
> the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
> for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
Feh. I can't be the only one completely fed up and bored to tears by all
the "complexities" (for me it's just tedious and unnecessarily convoluted)
of AS culture and structure. I'm still in the prologue for pity's sake, and
all of the gasps and sniffs at the intricacies of what Sitters do and don't
do, etc., are just grinding along, as enjoyable to read as the owner's
manual of a new hair dryer.
> Once again, as in TPOD, Egwene and the Rebel AS Hall shenanigans
> represent most of the best writing in the entire book.
I view this with extreme skepticism, but I haven't liked Egwene for some
time now.
>COT begins to
> pick up steam the moment Eg makes her first appearance - in chapter
> fifteen. (I'm digging the groove, man, I'm digging the groove...)
>
> Anyway:
>
> Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
> several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
> maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
>
> (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
> about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
> you, Rich, right?)
>
> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
>
> What gives?
OK, potentially dumb question on my part: why doesn't Halima/the Shadow
simply _kill_ Egwene if she is such a threat? Halima could do it, gate out
to nearly anywhere (heck even fake her own death in the process) and the SAS
would be none the wiser.
Giving an enemy _headaches_ seems pretty small potatoes, especially if they
can be countered or simply done away with. If she's a threat, why not just
eliminate the threat?
Then again, look at how long it took the Shadow to kill Carridin, one of its
own that kept screwing up....
--
Michael Martin
http://www.stormraven.com
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in
return."
Richard Boye
> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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> (BTW, I'm not even touching the Sitter Mystery right now. Besides, I
> see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
> the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
> for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
Strangely enough, I haven't even bought CoT yet. I've been on trial. I
have grand plans for the weekend, though.
> Anyway:
>
> Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
> several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
> maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
>
> (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
> about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
> you, Rich, right?)
'Tis me. Theodrin also *has* to be up to something as well.
> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
I have decided that the headaches discourage Egwene from Dreaming.
Besides, Compulsion is fraught with difficulties.
1) It's hard to do without truly messing up the mind of the subject.
Not that Ba'althilima has any concerns about scrambling Egwene's
dendrites, but unless he/she is good at it, she/he could conceivably
render Egwene retarded, like *noticeably* retarded, which might cause
the Aes Sedai to ditch her.
2) As seen with Rahvin y Morgase, certain people have a innate
resistance to Compulsion. They may be in thrall, but the subject's
subconscious instinctually seeks a way out from under the Compulsion,
thus requiring repeated dosages of Creepy Forsaken Mind Control (Muah
hah hah hah!). I have no doubt that Egwne would be one of those
innately resistant people - she fought off Seanchan programming for
months, recall.
> Some other Eg-related stuff:
>
> ***
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
It's a blockade. Gareth Bryne wanted to obstruct the harbors by
scuttling ships, but couldn't get any. Egwene just single-handedly
blockaded the harbors. No ships in, no ships out. The chain is
(apparently) fused, so cannot be raised or lowered.
This of course leaves us with the question of "That's great - how the
hell are they going to re-open the harbors when the rebels seize
control?"
I suspect that what can be done, can also be undone. Convert iron into
heartstone (presumably by rearranging the molecular structure into
something structurally perfect), then go back later and release the
atoms - maybe it won't be iron again, but anything is better than
Cuendillar.
> ***
> What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
> latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
> guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
> met yet is my guess. Any others?
I suspect it's Egeanin.
--
RMB
wa...@webspan.net
David ulaeto
> "Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
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> SNIP
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> > Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> > turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> > cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> > course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
> >
>
> My guess is that in addition to the chain, she was was going to change the
> mechanism that lowers it into cuendillar as well, perhaps making it
> impossible to lower, and impossible to remove (since cuendillar cannot be
> broken.) This would block the harbors, eliminating Tar Valon's only source
> of new supplies. I could be completely wrong here, of course, but that's
> all that I can think of.
>
Rebel Camp", although it's quite long thread by now.
David U.
Feisal Schlee
"Michael Martin" <baltez...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> > Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> > sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> > whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> > to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> > Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> > Eg is only a puppet.
> >
> > What gives?
>
> OK, potentially dumb question on my part: why doesn't Halima/the Shadow
> simply _kill_ Egwene if she is such a threat? Halima could do it, gate
out
> to nearly anywhere (heck even fake her own death in the process) and the
SAS
> would be none the wiser.
>
> Giving an enemy _headaches_ seems pretty small potatoes, especially if
they
> can be countered or simply done away with. If she's a threat, why not
just
> eliminate the threat?
Because that might lead to a reunification of the Tower, a Bad Thing.
At least Halima might think so because she doesn't know that Elaida is
utterly incompetent (even more than normal).
As for the compelling, maybe she does sometimes, but tries to restrict
herself as much as possible so she won't be discovered? That would be
seperate from the headaches, of course.
Peliades
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> (BTW, I'm not even touching the Sitter Mystery right now. Besides, I
> see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
> the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
> for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
>
> Once again, as in TPOD, Egwene and the Rebel AS Hall shenanigans
> represent most of the best writing in the entire book. COT begins to
> pick up steam the moment Eg makes her first appearance - in chapter
> fifteen. (I'm digging the groove, man, I'm digging the groove...)
>
> Anyway:
>
> Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
> several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
> maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
It does make sense though. If Asha'Man are suddenly wandering around
the rebel camp, Halima would no longer be able to channel with
complete security.
> (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
> about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
> you, Rich, right?)
>
> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
Halima could be using a very subtle form of Compelling only to garner
information, more like hypnosis than anything. This could account for
her lack of goofiness.
>
> Some other Eg-related stuff:
>
> ***
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
This is an attempt to block the harbor permanently. I like the idea
but I am _so_ sick of the wondergirls making the same idiotic mistakes
over and over. The last few books have shown Egwene to be intelligent
and subtle, yet the first chance she gets she goes off into danger on
her own to get clubbed over the head yet again, when even a small body
guard would have at least given her a chance (ie a couple of sisters
and a warder or two). Why is it that Perrin and Matt are smart enough
to prefer having as many swords and channels about them as they can,
while the stupid girls that are constantly being ambushed, tricked,
and knocked in the head keep wandering around like they own the world?
Lets see, 1)tricked by Liandrin, clunked over the head by Seanchan
2)ambushed by bandits on way to Tear, clunked over head 3)Ambushed by
BA in Tear, clunked with power 4)Ambushed by Lanfear in Cairhain,
clunked with power 5)ambushed by Tower AS, clunked in head with power.
Of course this doesnt include all the clunkings Egwene has received
in Dreams, Ter'Angrels etc... nor all the additional clunkings
receieved by her girl friends for being stupid. One would think you
would get a bit leary of wandering around cluelessly.
Also dont get me started about how many different ways one could
disable a ship with the OP without sinking it. I can come up with
about 20 off the top of my head.
Drew Holton
"Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
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> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
>
> What gives?
>
>
I started a thread that gives my theory on the headaches, basically that
their purpose is to prevent Egwene from Dreaming. As for the larger problem
of why they aren't Compelling Egwene, my theory is that she's already doing
what they want. They want to reunite the tower, under her instead of Elaida.
Exactly why, I'm not sure, since the have(had!) Elaida under their thumb. My
guess is they want to use Egwene against Rand somehow, and they know Rand
and Elaida would never cooperate together. As evidence, look how they've had
Alviarin undermining and sabotaging Elaida with the rest of the Tower,
forcing division and chaos.
Another reason for no Compulsion, is that it really leaves you with no
willpower, and also no initiative. Look at haw Morgase behaved. I don't
think they could keep Egwene on the Amylin Seat for long AND actively
leading the Rebels to reunite if she was under Compulsion.
Drew Holton
> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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> If you'll recall the discussions in Salidar about previous Tower sieges,
we
> learned that Hawking could not defeat the White Tower because he couldn't
> block the harbors (AS channelling cleaning whatever Hawking's armies
dumped
> in front of the harbors). Cuendillar can't be destroyed, so no ships at
all
> can enter North Harbour, so no food or soldiers can get in. Now it's just
a
> matter of starving them out.
>
>
> >
I feel I should point out that while Egwene succeeded in blocking one of the
Harbors, Leane is supposed to be blocking the other. And she's nowhere near
as fast as Egwene in making cuendillar. If one was betrayed, you have to
assume the other was as well. So did Leane succeed? Will she be captured as
well? If so will she be stilled again? Will she even be recognized? If she
proves her identity (since her face has changed), what will the effect of
the knowledge that stilling can be Healed be? All very interesting questions
to me.
Bastian Doetsch
I still wonder, if the besieged AS will just blow up the end points of the
chain that aren't cuendillar and therefore have a free harbor once again.
Ben Goodman
According to Gareth Bryne's previously stated plans, the sige will not
be overlong, just long enough to destroy the morale of the Tower Guard
(and perhaps the Aes Sedai themselves) and weaken them physically. They
don't want the people of Tar Valon to suffer too much. So we're talking
weeks or more likely months and not years here.
James Bremner
says...
3 or 4 books worth you mean?
Ben Goodman
>
> It's a blockade. Gareth Bryne wanted to obstruct the harbors by
> scuttling ships, but couldn't get any. Egwene just single-handedly
> blockaded the harbors. No ships in, no ships out. The chain is
> (apparently) fused, so cannot be raised or lowered.
>
> This of course leaves us with the question of "That's great - how the
> hell are they going to re-open the harbors when the rebels seize
> control?"
>
The simpler solution is to destroy the connections and remove the chain
that way. This can't be a simple thing, probably requiring lots of Aes
Sedai to lift it out. The Rebels may think they can obstruct a removal
with "sniper fire" or they may not care too much. Once the chain is
removed the Tower can't stop them from blocking the harbor with sunken
ships.
Drew Holton
"Ben Goodman" <goo...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:avklge$ggqni$2...@ID-157696.news.dfncis.de...
For that matter, supposing they *do* remove the chain. That leaves them wide
open to assault, and since the defenses are no doubt designed around the
fact of the chain still being there, no matter how many troops the have
stationed there, it has to be easier than attacking over the bridges.
Probably makes an active blocade by ship easier too. Not only that, it may
make it easier to slip a Trojan Boat in too, as they can no longer control
traffic to a ship at a time.
Sean O'Hara
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> "Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
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> > Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> > turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> > cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> > course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
> >
>
> My guess is that in addition to the chain, she was was going to change the
> mechanism that lowers it into cuendillar as well, perhaps making it
> impossible to lower, and impossible to remove (since cuendillar cannot be
> broken.) This would block the harbors, eliminating Tar Valon's only source
> of new supplies. I could be completely wrong here, of course, but that's
> all that I can think of.
>
you're trying to conquer. Because, gee, it's not like you'll ever
have use for those harbors.
--
Sean O'Hara
Donnie: Why do you wear that stupid rabbit suit?
Frank: Why do you wear that stupid man suit?
--Richard Kelly, "Donnie Darko"
Richard Boye'
>
> Tim Mixdorf wrote:
> >
> > "Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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> > > Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> > > turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> > > cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> > > course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
> > >
> >
> > My guess is that in addition to the chain, she was was going to change the
> > mechanism that lowers it into cuendillar as well, perhaps making it
> > impossible to lower, and impossible to remove (since cuendillar cannot be
> > broken.) This would block the harbors, eliminating Tar Valon's only source
> > of new supplies. I could be completely wrong here, of course, but that's
> > all that I can think of.
> >
> Real smart strategy. Permanently disable the harbors of the city
> you're trying to conquer. Because, gee, it's not like you'll ever
> have use for those harbors.
Which is why I think she thinks she can reverse the process.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Chris Wilson
news:3E1E1B...@webspan.net...
> Sean O'Hara wrote:
> >
> > >
> > Real smart strategy. Permanently disable the harbors of the city
> > you're trying to conquer. Because, gee, it's not like you'll ever
> > have use for those harbors.
>
> Which is why I think she thinks she can reverse the process.
She doesn't really need to be able to undo it...once Eggy has
control of the city she can just have some workmen spend a
year or so destroying the foundations of the chain-towers.
Poof...the whole shebang falls into the river, problem solved.
-Greebs
Craig Moe
>lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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>> (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
>> about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
>> you, Rich, right?)
>
>'Tis me. Theodrin also *has* to be up to something as well.
Which brings up a question Leigh didn't ask? Is Theodrin's strange
behavior just her finally snapping under the strain? And where did
Faolain disappear to?
--
Craig Moe <crai...@mindspring.com>
Joseph R S
"Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>
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> Some other Eg-related stuff:
>
> ***
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
Egwene fused the chain together as cuendillar. It can no longer be lowered,
and it should be difficult even for Aes Sedai to get rid of the whole thing.
Before the AS get rid of it, by getting rid of some of the walls,
1. Tar Valon is finally truly beseiged, no food or soldiers can get in.
2. While technically it would take a month or two for all of Tar Valon to
starve (unless they have Weavels too!), one assumes the Tower Hall would see
the writing on the wall, depose Elaida, and negotiate terms of surrender.
3. This is the only way to 'win' peacefully, without a major battle, which
is exactly Egwene's goal.
If the Tower AS get rid of the fused chain the harbour mouth would be open.
1. They could no longer limit the number of ships that came in at once,
opening them to a serious threat of invasion (although traveling does make
this superfluous)
2. A Fire Ship is a ship that you set on fire, abandon, and let it slam into
the harbour.
3. Sink ships in the harbour thereby blocking it, and maintaing the absolute
seige. (one assumes the harbour isn't nearly as deep as a river 2 miles
across)
Sadly though, I am almost certain that Nicola Treehill defected to Elaida,
and taught them all Traveling, which means the seige can go on.
> ***
> What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
> latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
> guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
> met yet is my guess. Any others?
My guess, since those who ride on Raken are usually small, many are women.
It will probably be one of them. I assume since Egwene will be in a cell,
the Seanchen woman will be captured, and put in the same/neighbouring cell.
Sean O'Hara
essentially making a giant, chink filled wall [1]. That's not
something you'd really want to sink in a channel, and it sounds
like a bitch and a half to move, even with Aes Sedai support.
[1] No, this isn't a racist description of the Great Wall of
China.
BrianC
<JosephS...@Rogers.com> wrote:
>
>"Leigh Butler" <lei...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>>
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[snipsnip]
>
>Sadly though, I am almost certain that Nicola Treehill defected to Elaida,
>and taught them all Traveling, which means the seige can go on.
>
I agree with you on the first part of that, but Nicola has not learned
the gateway weave, as far as we know. When she attempted to spy
on the Travelling Ground, she was caught, and there's no indication
that she managed to succeed at a later attempt.
++Brian
Jeffrey Yu
news:avk28l$m9i$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk:
That probably can't happen, because the Egwene chapters said the walls of
TV were built and protected with the one power and very strong.
John S. Novak, III
> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
No, pagebreak:
Spoilers:
> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO.
Well, except for her total idiocy regarding Halima in the first place.
*Everyone* in the camp believes the worst of Halima, except for
Egwene.
I'd rather have her Compelled than just plain old stupid.
Why she's not Compelled others in the same fashion, or Egwene to any
other degree is beyond me, though. That would make too much sense.
At least now we know how she's going to be found out, though--
someone, somewhere, is going to do one of these resonance checks that
came up from nowhere, and Egwene is going to light up like a Chirstmas
tree.
> Some other Eg-related stuff:
> ***
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
The Rebels demonstrably have their own way in.
The chain blocks reinforcements and food, though.
Removing it when all is said and done is going to be a bitch, unless
they also know how to un-cuendillar it.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Indigo Wombat
> In article <3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
>> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>
> No, pagebreak:
> Spoilers:
>
>
[snip a lot]
>> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
>> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
>> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
>> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
>
> The Rebels demonstrably have their own way in.
> The chain blocks reinforcements and food, though.
> Removing it when all is said and done is going to be a bitch, unless
> they also know how to un-cuendillar it.
Chopping it up with gateways, perhaps? Wonder what would happen if someone
tried that?
--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might
Agthorr
>> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>
> No, pagebreak:
> Spoilers:
>
>
> Why she's not Compelled others in the same fashion, or Egwene to any
> other degree is beyond me, though. That would make too much sense.
Do we have any evidence that Egwene is not being Compelled?
At a couple points in the series, it's been remarked that Compulsion
can be used with extreme subtlety.
Also, I get the sense that Compulsion is not at all the same as
breaking someone's will. It wouldn't surprise me if Halima is using a
combination of Compulsion, mild torture (headaches), suggestion, and
forced dreams to slowly mold Egwene.
See LoC, chapter 6 for the perspective of a number of the Forsaken on
Compulsion.
I think using strong Compulsion would be too obvious; I wouldn't be
surprised if we don't discover the full effects of Halima's
manipulations until long after Halima has been discovered.
-- Agthorr
ZMarc
> In article <3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Leigh Butler wrote:
> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>
> No, pagebreak:
> Spoilers:
>
>
> > I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> > Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> > sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> > whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO.
>
> Well, except for her total idiocy regarding Halima in the first place.
> *Everyone* in the camp believes the worst of Halima, except for
> Egwene.
>
> I'd rather have her Compelled than just plain old stupid.
>
> Why she's not Compelled others in the same fashion, or Egwene to any
> other degree is beyond me, though. That would make too much sense.
>
> At least now we know how she's going to be found out, though--
> someone, somewhere, is going to do one of these resonance checks that
> came up from nowhere, and Egwene is going to light up like a Chirstmas
> tree.
Ummmm... except that Egwene is now lounging in a prison in the White
Tower...
> > Some other Eg-related stuff:
>
> > ***
> > Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> > turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> > cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> > course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
>
> The Rebels demonstrably have their own way in.
> The chain blocks reinforcements and food, though.
> Removing it when all is said and done is going to be a bitch, unless
> they also know how to un-cuendillar it.
Un-cuendillar it? That doesn't seem like it would be possible... I
mean, what would be the point of a substance that nothing can
break.... Unless you just undo it?
Marc
Aaron F. Bourque
>Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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>What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back?
Uh . . . boat captains?
>I would think Eg's latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon
>and Alivia (our previous guesses), who don't seem big on swords.
>Egeanin?
That would be my guess.
>Someone we haven't met yet is my guess.
And that would be my strong second-choice.
Aaron F. Bourque
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming robot toys for ten-year-olds
http://members.aol.com/aaronbourque/cryotekwarning.jpg
Peter Reid
> j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote in message news:<avsmdk$j58fq$1...@ID-100778.news.dfncis.de>...
>>The Rebels demonstrably have their own way in.
>>The chain blocks reinforcements and food, though.
>>Removing it when all is said and done is going to be a bitch, unless
>>they also know how to un-cuendillar it.
>
>
> Un-cuendillar it? That doesn't seem like it would be possible... I
> mean, what would be the point of a substance that nothing can
> break.... Unless you just undo it?
>
> Marc
Perhaps it's such that only the person who _made_ it cuendillar can
"uncuendillar" it, or it requires a circle of 13 channellers (or more)
to accomplish, or some other very specific and/or hard thing to do, thus
making it still worthwhile creating. Plus, perhaps it's merely to
create something that the average (non-channelling) Joe can't destroy;
in the AoL, the channellers were (civil?) "Servants of All" (that's what
Aes Sedai means, I believe); perhaps they used cuendillar to make things
for the common person's benefit, such that only they would be able to do
anything to it.
--
Peter Reid
peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca
The little lost angel
>Un-cuendillar it? That doesn't seem like it would be possible... I
>mean, what would be the point of a substance that nothing can
>break.... Unless you just undo it?
Balefire anybody?
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or Javascript. No ASP, CF or Frontpage.
Ken B.
"The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l...@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote
in message news:3e243988...@news.pacific.net.sg...
> On 12 Jan 2003 21:31:13 -0800, MZap...@hotmail.com (ZMarc) wrote:
> >Un-cuendillar it? That doesn't seem like it would be possible... I
> >mean, what would be the point of a substance that nothing can
> >break.... Unless you just undo it?
>
> Balefire anybody?
Balefire doesn't effect it. See the scene in the palace in Tanchico
where Nyn is being attacked by that one BA chick using the Balefire
wand. The Balefire sweeps through the displays and destrpys
everything except the objects made of cuendillar.
-
Ken B.
Lyle Caldwell
news:VWXU9.49778$Dn.9573@sccrnsc03...
No, no, no. Balefire Egwene.
--
Lyle Caldwell
Ken B.
news:ixZU9.15667$WT3....@news.bellsouth.net...
Well yes, I suppose that'd work. :) For one chain at least. Leanne
did the other one
But, considering RJ would then have one less woman to sniff, one less
outfit to describe, and one less person to nitice the weevils, I think
she's probably safe.
-
Ken B.
The little lost angel
wrote:
>But, considering RJ would then have one less woman to sniff, one less
>outfit to describe, and one less person to nitice the weevils, I think
>she's probably safe.
But then the SAS would be headless, they would forget they ever chose
Egwene as their Amyrlin and we'll have another whole book dedicated to
SAS politiking no?
Rob Bohms
> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>
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>
> see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
> the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
> for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
The simplest explanation I arrived at is that the Sitter mess relates to
the Black Ajah, since it's happening on both sides of the split. The
question to answer is, of course, are the new Sitters Black, or is the
split designed to draw the Black Ajah out?
> Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
> several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
> maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
>
> (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
> about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
> you, Rich, right?)
Simple plot device. The ones taken out are the two most directly helpful
to Eg. Nicola runs off (No Foretelling now), Anaiya dies (Dreamer lore)
and the heartstone Aes Sedai dies (Eg has to go herself). 13/13 circle,
at long last. Especially since Sheriam knows about that particular weave.
Practice for the Black Ajah, anyone? I seriously sense a bid for full
control, Keeper, Amyrlin, and Lesser Consensus of the Hall, at least.
> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
Actually, I think Eg is getting poked with Compulsion. She stepped back
on the Oaths. I hardly think she reconsidered. The negotiations, too.
How else could you wind up with an increase in Black Sitters, except a
peaceful solution, worked out by Black Sitters?
> ***
> Has anyone had better luck than me at figuring out how the hell
> turning a chain that _blocks the Rebels from Tar Valon_ into
> cuendillar is supposed to HELP Egwene's faction? I'm very tired, of
> course, but shit, this leaves me blank.
As many people said, fuse the thing solid. With Travelling, who needs
an on-island harbor?
> ***
> What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
> latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
> guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
> met yet is my guess. Any others?
Seems like Egeanin for now. Given the two book goal, there's scant room
for new characters... I think...
Amy Padgett
robb...@comcast.net says...
> lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> > sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> > whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> > to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> > Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> > Eg is only a puppet.
>
> Actually, I think Eg is getting poked with Compulsion. She stepped back
> on the Oaths. I hardly think she reconsidered. The negotiations, too.
> How else could you wind up with an increase in Black Sitters, except a
> peaceful solution, worked out by Black Sitters?
>
If Halima is using Saidin to give Egwene headaches, why is it
that none of the sisters who have tried to heal her can feel the
residue of the male half of the source? Apparently there are
some sisters who are quite skilled at sensing trace residues of
the power.
--
Amy
I try to be reasonable, but I make no guarantees.
Duncan J Macdonald
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
<snip>
>
> If Halima is using Saidin to give Egwene headaches, why is it
> that none of the sisters who have tried to heal her can feel the
> residue of the male half of the source? Apparently there are
> some sisters who are quite skilled at sensing trace residues of
> the power.
Mainly because looking for 'resonance' apparently takes some effort,
and at least an inkling that _saidin_ was used. I expect that it's
not normally looked for.
--
Duncan J Macdonald
macdonal...@hq.navy.mil
macdo...@comcast.net
DMacd...@TitanCEG.com
Rob Bohms
Note they required a special weave to detect saidin. Given Aes Sedai
arrogance, why SHOULD they be testing for saidin in a girl's headaches?
Also, notice how Verin says she is the best at Delving, and her Compulsion
leaves no recognizable traces. Well, the Yellow sisters will Delve before
they Heal, and they will not notice anything wrong. So if they can sense
the pain through the Delving, but cannot Heal it, why should they think it's
saidin? It could just be the fool girl doesn't sleep enough, or is working
herself too hard.
In short, I fail to see why any sister would have even thought of the
headaches being elated to saidin.
Allen Bryan
> robb...@comcast.net says...
> > lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> > > Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> > > sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> > > whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> > > to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> > > Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> > > Eg is only a puppet.
> >
> > Actually, I think Eg is getting poked with Compulsion. She stepped back
> > on the Oaths. I hardly think she reconsidered. The negotiations, too.
> > How else could you wind up with an increase in Black Sitters, except a
> > peaceful solution, worked out by Black Sitters?
> >
>
> If Halima is using Saidin to give Egwene headaches, why is it
> that none of the sisters who have tried to heal her can feel the
> residue of the male half of the source? Apparently there are
> some sisters who are quite skilled at sensing trace residues of
> the power.
Because no one has thought of it. After all, anyone seen any Asha'man
around? Oh, yes, the murdered sisters. Well, clearly Eg's headaches
*can't* have anything to do with the murders. The headaches pre-date
the murders by a long time. Besides, whoever heard of channeling to
cause headaches? The whole idea (to Eg or any SAS) is ludicrous and
clearly wrongheaded. You might as well suggest that a woman could
channel saidin!
It is a Major Goal of the Shadow to make the White Tower as
disorganized, confused, and vulnerable as possible, to reduce
resistance to the encroaching Shadow. Mesaana's assignment is to cause
dissension among the Ajahs by:
1) Breaking the Tower. Done.
2) Controlling Elaida and ruining the White Tower's foreign policy.
Done. The Tower is now in diplomatic shambles; it will never again
command its supreme role in manipulating events.
3) Weakening the Tower by causing dissension within the Ajahs.
Ongoing, but now interrupted by Alivarin's deposition.
4) Preparing for the final blow: Semi's Seanchan attack.
Halima's assignment is to prolong and worsen the Tower Conflict by any
and all means. She begins by manipulating the one Black Sitter in the
Salidar Hall, Delana. [She would be using more if she had them.] She
inveigles her way into Egwene's confidences when that proves
insufficient.
1) She repeatedly tries to get Elaida declared Black Ajah. (ACOS 12)
a) This move would force Elaida to fight to the death, and would
preclude any compromise.
b) It would publicly shock and dismay AS on both sides.
2) She has Delana support all factions, thus encouraging dissension in
the Hall. (LOC 37)
3) She kills maids to reduce communication between the factions. (TPOD
16)
4) She repeatedly kills people who are politically useful to Egwene,
reducing her uniting power and encouraging -- guess what! --
dissension in the Hall. (COT various)
Killing Egwene would be unwise on Halima's part: she would lose all
the hard work she's invested in Egwene, and she'd have to start over
in her goal to manipulate the SAS Hall. She wants the conflict to
waste the AS' time and efforts, eliminate WT influence in the world,
and make things generally unpleasant. Remember, she's under orders not
to simply kill them all! My guess is that the Shadow is hoping for
them to be either all leashed, or converted via 13/13 after certain
necessary events have transpired. The Shadow was hoping to have them
move slowly and wind up caught by the Seanchan, but that didn't happen
due to the rediscovery of Traveling. To make up for this, Semi is
arranging via Yulin for a airstrike on TV.
Jess
> that none of the sisters who have tried to heal her can feel the
> residue of the male half of the source? Apparently there are
> some sisters who are quite skilled at sensing trace residues of
> the power.
They have to look for residues to find them. Nisao says so. Why
would they look for residues for a headache??
jess
John Nowacki
wrote:
>Amy Padgett <amy.p...@attbi.nospam.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.189643f74...@netnews.attbi.com>...
>> In article <a35ba6ab.03012...@posting.google.com>,
>> robb...@comcast.net says...
>> > lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>> > > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>Scroll faster, Forty-One.
>> > >
I take it you've watched Ben-Hur recently.
Chris Liguori
I figure that Halima must be using small levels of Saidin and nobody
thought of checking the Am Seat for Saidin residues. It is probably
why Eg is not totally Compelled to follow Halima - it would be obvious
to anyone who checked. The slow, long-term "therapy" being applied to
Eg must be harder to detect.
Regards,
Chris
Dustin Clayton
Maybe saidin can only leave a residue if its on a dead body, not one
living. Do we know that a residue can be found on a living body, if
used for compulsion or healing?
Or maybe there is a certain weave recently discovered that allows for
sisters to pick up the residue, and no one thought of it yet.
Chris Liguori
> lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > (BTW, I'm not even touching the Sitter Mystery right now. Besides, I
> > see that Boye and Hamby and others are already happily wallowing in
> > the avalanche of new data we got on that upstream, so I'll just settle
> > for acknowledging it exists till I can catch up.)
>
> The simplest explanation I arrived at is that the Sitter mess relates to
> the Black Ajah, since it's happening on both sides of the split. The
> question to answer is, of course, are the new Sitters Black, or is the
> split designed to draw the Black Ajah out?
I disagree. I think the sitter situation is a (non-DF) plan for Tower
reconciliation. Most of the sitter gaps after the split were filled
with people who, for one reason or another were not qualified for the
position. The reason - they could be easily removed when the WT split
was healed. Note who is in negotiations right now - practically the
entire old Hall. See, COT, "What the Oath Rod Can Do" page 666:
"Excepting Janya, every Sitter who had held a chair before the Tower
divided had insinuated herself into the negotiations. They were
talking with women they had known in the Hall back then, after all."
The exception of Janya is interesting, the third oldest AS in the
rebel group and not involved in negotiations? Hmmmm .... Black?
Purple? Or just typical Brown?
> > Well, after being in a camp full of Good Guys (more or less) for only
> > several centuries, Halima finally kills someone more important than a
> > maid. You go, girl. You're, like, way evil and stuff.
> >
> > (Funny how Anaiya's death neither supports nor refutes Rich's theory
> > about how she's too sweet and motherly to be anything but BA. It was
> > you, Rich, right?)
>
> Simple plot device. The ones taken out are the two most directly helpful
> to Eg. Nicola runs off (No Foretelling now), Anaiya dies (Dreamer lore)
> and the heartstone Aes Sedai dies (Eg has to go herself). 13/13 circle,
> at long last. Especially since Sheriam knows about that particular weave.
> Practice for the Black Ajah, anyone? I seriously sense a bid for full
> control, Keeper, Amyrlin, and Lesser Consensus of the Hall, at least.
I would think that Anaiya's death points to her being BA. Why else
would she be out where she was? Even with her warder, it is unlikely
that Halima could talk a non-BA AS out there for any reason. I
believe Nicola ran off because of her foretelling and Faolain did the
same - probably to Gawyn's camp.
[snip rest of message]
Regards,
Chris
Eric Means
> Amy Padgett <amy.p...@attbi.nospam.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.189643f74...@netnews.attbi.com>...
> > In article <a35ba6ab.03012...@posting.google.com>,
> > robb...@comcast.net says...
> > > lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > > > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> > > >
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>
> living. Do we know that a residue can be found on a living body, if
> used for compulsion or healing?
>
> Or maybe there is a certain weave recently discovered that allows for
> sisters to pick up the residue, and no one thought of it yet.
I think the latter. From the phrasing in CoT, you actually have to
"test for resonance" -- I don't think it's something you just
"notice". Notionally, perhaps it's a particular weave you have to
sweep back and forth, and it "snags" on the residue of the male
weaves.
*However*, that doesn't explain why -- given that people are quite
clearly being killed by male channelling in the camp -- they haven't
just tested the whole bloody camp (or at least the Aes Sedai portion
of it) for resonance. Sweep the weaves over the entire place, and see
if anything turns up. A bit like checking for a minefield -- you
don't wait till someone steps on a mine and then check only that ten
foot square area, you scan all around you before you make any moves.
Deflection
> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> Eg is only a puppet.
>
>
He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No reason
to compell. Perhaps the headaches are just a way to keep her from
thinking to deeply (Not that that's too hard:) and discovering the
various mysteries. Or using TAR to *gasp* actually communicate and
exchange information with others of the light! From the last few books
she seems not to trust Elayne or Aviendha anymore because they are too
close to Rand.
After reading COT, I decided to reread from the beginning again for
the first time. Going back through, I get the distinct impression that
I hadn't had before that Rand and Egwene are on a collision course.
Egwene is probably doing exactly what the dark wants judging from how
little interference she is receiving from the Forsaken and the Black.
Yes, they are around her but they haven't had to do much. Maybe this
mystery has already been solved, but I'm guessing Egwene will be the
one to help Tuon try and control Rand through the male adam at some
point.
> ***
> What Seanchan woman carries a sword on her back? I would think Eg's
> latest dream about her kind of rules out Tuon and Alivia (our previous
> guesses), who don't seem big on swords. Egeanin? Someone we haven't
> met yet is my guess. Any others?
My only guess would be Tuon and the sword is Mat in the "male" sense
of physical protection(Yes, I know that isn't his weopon of choice).
Deflection
-I'm an Ankle Man
Dustin Clayton
I think that if they could easily scan the area for residues, they
would do so constantly. But I would think that after the second body
with residues was found, Egwene would have either mentioned or heard
about sisters sweep the camp for other residues if they could do so.
The rebuttal to this idea is Egwene or any of the Hall didnt want such
a thing to happen in case people who saw sisters constantly sweeping
the camp for something would make them jumpy and nervous, and thought
it wouldnt help morale in the camp.
I personally believe what I said above, about the only residues they
can pick up are on people who have been dead for a small period of
time, say within a day. Its the only case where we've found them
using it, granted. But there isnt any evidence, and please correct me
if Im wrong, that says that the residue can be found when a weave was
used on a living, breathing person.
Deflection
Thought I should at least provide a modicum of support.
/WOTFAQ/4_prophecy/4.01_egwene-drm.html
"A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the
hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was
female."
-hawk as Tuon (Seanchean Blood)
-tied/chained)
-emphasis on Hawk being female in the prophecy
FaceLess
> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
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> the first time. Going back through, I get the distinct impression that
> I hadn't had before that Rand and Egwene are on a collision course.
> Egwene is probably doing exactly what the dark wants judging from how
> little interference she is receiving from the Forsaken and the Black.
> Yes, they are around her but they haven't had to do much. Maybe this
> mystery has already been solved, but I'm guessing Egwene will be the
> one to help Tuon try and control Rand through the male adam at some
> point.
Regarding Egs feelings towards the use of adam, I find it very hard to
believe she will help someone putting and adam on anyone let alone
Rand
Jess
> >
> > After reading COT, I decided to reread from the beginning again for
> > the first time. Going back through, I get the distinct impression that
> > I hadn't had before that Rand and Egwene are on a collision course.
> > Egwene is probably doing exactly what the dark wants judging from how
> > little interference she is receiving from the Forsaken and the Black.
> > Yes, they are around her but they haven't had to do much. Maybe this
> > mystery has already been solved, but I'm guessing Egwene will be the
> > one to help Tuon try and control Rand through the male adam at some
> > point.
>
> Thought I should at least provide a modicum of support.
>
> /WOTFAQ/4_prophecy/4.01_egwene-drm.html
> "A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the
> hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was
> female."
>
> -hawk as Tuon (Seanchean Blood)
> -tied/chained)
> -emphasis on Hawk being female in the prophecy
I think that's stretching a little, personally. Yes, I agree that
Tuon and Egwene are on a collision course, but I can't see Egwene EVER
leasing ANYONE, given her previous experiences that still haunt her.
And leashing Rand? Maybe for a few minutes to teach him a lesson or
some such, but not to control him.
And the about doing what the Dark wants - yeah, she's aiding chaos.
If she doesn't push the seige and just decides to re-enter the Tower
or twiddle her thumbs, Elaida can gain more control of events, but
doing what she's doing she just promotes chaos (let the lord of chaos
rule). Until she wins, that is. The Shadow wants to keep the civil
war in the WT going on as long as possible to lessen organized
resistence.
Tuon and Egwene will probably work to dispell the Seanchan belief of
marath'damane needing to be leashed. That sounds peachy enough.
jess
Tim Schofield
<chris_...@sympatico.ca> writes
>"Richard Boye'" <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message
>news:3E1E1B...@webspan.net...
>> Sean O'Hara wrote:
>> >
>
>> > >
>> > Real smart strategy. Permanently disable the harbors of the city
>> > you're trying to conquer. Because, gee, it's not like you'll ever
>> > have use for those harbors.
>>
>> Which is why I think she thinks she can reverse the process.
>
> She doesn't really need to be able to undo it...once Eggy has
> control of the city she can just have some workmen spend a
> year or so destroying the foundations of the chain-towers.
>
>Poof...the whole shebang falls into the river, problem solved.
>
Why bother with workmen? Channelling will do it much faster.
In fact, the TAS can destroy the foundations when they want: to dynamite
a natural obstacle wouldn't be using the OP as a weapon. So as a siege
weapon, a cuendillar chain would last very little time.
--
Tim S.
Dustin Clayton
If people think they have a good reason for it, they will do it. Not
rejecting your ideas, just recalling what I learned from Feild of
Dreams.
Dpoc Vyper
>From: blue_...@yahoo.com (Dustin Clayton)
>Date: 1/22/2003 4:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <cfabe665.0301...@posting.google.com>
Thats the problem though.. People in these stories never seem to have GOOD
reasons for doing anything USEFUL.... they are all so dern tied up trying to
keep their left hand from knowing what their right hand is doing. . . The
total lack of communication between any parties is just so unbelievable..
If using the sad bracelets on Rand really is a good idea that will save lives
and not do any permanent harm to anyone. . . Why would that idea be thought
up?.. Instead, they will half imply and suggest the bad things, thus putting
everyone on guard, and thus nothing will get accomplished.
Joe
Mitchell Swan
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> I personally believe what I said above, about the only residues they
> can pick up are on people who have been dead for a small period of
> time, say within a day. Its the only case where we've found them
> using it, granted. But there isnt any evidence, and please correct me
> if Im wrong, that says that the residue can be found when a weave was
> used on a living, breathing person.
Nope, the sisters sent to the Cleansing reported masive amounts of
residue from the saidin. It's the after-effects of *weaving* it, not
the results.
--
Mitch
Maia
wrote:
>lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
>>
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>> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
>> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
>> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
>> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
>> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
>> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
>> Eg is only a puppet.
>>
>> What gives?
>>
>
>He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
>influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
>what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No reason
>to compell.
Um, could it be that Egwene's legendary Two Rivers stubborness is
protecting her from Compulsion, to some degree? Yes, yes, we all know
that women are more easily Compelled and otherwise subjugated in
Jordanverse than men, but it worked for Rand and it worked for
Morgase, somewhat. The headaches would then be results of her
subconcious fight against Compulsion. And I doubt that most of Egs
actions were what Shadow wanted. They would have been better off with
undivided Tower with Elaida at the helm. And Elaida is probably easier
to Compell, too.
Marian Try Slaughter
The headaches were quite clearly just that - headaches. There's a scene in
COT where Halima is hoping to stay around "just in case", egwene sends her
off, then lo and behold, a headache starts. Halima just uses them to keep
herself close to egwene, either to compel her, or for some other nefarious
purposes.
"cultures that can identify taupe are just pretentious."
Simon - mhm27x5
Dpoc Vyper
>Date: 1/26/2003 10:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
>The headaches were quite clearly just that - headaches. There's a scene in
>COT where Halima is hoping to stay around "just in case", egwene sends her
>off, then lo and behold, a headache starts. Halima just uses them to keep
>herself close to egwene, either to compel her, or for some other nefarious
>purposes.
I agree, after reading that part in COT... And a little later how Egwene
thinks that she cannot really talk with anyone else, because then it might show
weakness, but since Halima isn't an AS, she can reminisce about home, and what
she misses, and basically things that might make her look like a Weak Amyrlin
to any of the other AS, even those that have sworn to her. . . So I think
Halima has basically just been using the headaches to stay close, listen to
conversations (because she is upset at being sent away when Egwene is talking
with Siuan, so it seems likely that she is sometimes allowed to stay during
these discussions - when they aren't super secretive, of course). . and just
learn whats going on from Egwene's point of view as well, since relying on
Delana is incomplete - at best...
THAT, and maybe Halima has some sense about Egwene's dreaming - how that could
have been discovered is beyond me, but when Halima is around, Egwene doesn't
have any useful dreams - her dreams are usually dark, troubled and restless,
and she cannot remember them.. yet from the instance in COT, she actually has
some "possible" future dreams and remembers them, and generally has no dark
dreams that go unremembered. . .
Jess
> THAT, and maybe Halima has some sense about Egwene's dreaming - how that could
> have been discovered is beyond me, but when Halima is around, Egwene doesn't
> have any useful dreams - her dreams are usually dark, troubled and restless,
> and she cannot remember them.. yet from the instance in COT, she actually has
> some "possible" future dreams and remembers them, and generally has no dark
> dreams that go unremembered. . .
Perhaps the reason she her dreams when Halima is around are "dark,
troubled and restless" is that they are trying to warn her about
Halima. Perhaps Halima has put some sort of ward on her dreams with
saidin that keep her from dreaming about the Dark. just an idea . . .
maybe loony - whaddaya think?
jess
Kutulu
<peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote:
>ZMarc wrote:
>> j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote in message news:<avsmdk$j58fq$1...@ID-100778.news.dfncis.de>...
>
>>>The Rebels demonstrably have their own way in.
>>>The chain blocks reinforcements and food, though.
>>>Removing it when all is said and done is going to be a bitch, unless
>>>they also know how to un-cuendillar it.
>>
>>
>> Un-cuendillar it? That doesn't seem like it would be possible... I
>> mean, what would be the point of a substance that nothing can
>> break.... Unless you just undo it?
>>
>> Marc
>
>Perhaps it's such that only the person who _made_ it cuendillar can
>"uncuendillar" it, or it requires a circle of 13 channellers (or more)
>to accomplish, or some other very specific and/or hard thing to do, thus
>making it still worthwhile creating. Plus, perhaps it's merely to
>create something that the average (non-channelling) Joe can't destroy;
>in the AoL, the channellers were (civil?) "Servants of All" (that's what
>Aes Sedai means, I believe); perhaps they used cuendillar to make things
>for the common person's benefit, such that only they would be able to do
>anything to it.
Except they made the Dark One's seals out of it. If anything in the
world would need to stand up to insane amount of OP being thrown at
them, it would be those things.
It was clearly pointed out when we found the first seal that
channeling anything at cuendillar only served to make it stronger. If
there's any sort of sanity in this world, that would include the weave
built to undo it. If Egwene can wander along and un-cuendillar stuff
at will, how did the seals stay intact as long as they did?
Of course, given that no one in the 3rd age knows how to make
cuendillar except the people Egwene taught, there's always the
possibility that it's not truly pure cuendillar, and could be unmade
because of that.
--K
Ben Goodman
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:07:27 -0500, Peter Reid
> <peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> It was clearly pointed out when we found the first seal that
> channeling anything at cuendillar only served to make it stronger. If
> there's any sort of sanity in this world, that would include the weave
> built to undo it. If Egwene can wander along and un-cuendillar stuff
> at will, how did the seals stay intact as long as they did?
Because only the agents of the Dark One would want to and they didn't
have them (with the possible exception of Taim and at that point anyone
could have broken them). Also you would have to be able to channel,
which is rare.
>
> Of course, given that no one in the 3rd age knows how to make
> cuendillar except the people Egwene taught, there's always the
> possibility that it's not truly pure cuendillar, and could be unmade
> because of that.
>
Aes Sedai have ways to test if it's cuendillar, as seen by when Elayne
and Nynaeve brought the broken seals to Salidar, not to mention Moiraine
in Rhuidean.
Ben Goodman
>
> THAT, and maybe Halima has some sense about Egwene's dreaming - how that could
> have been discovered is beyond me, but when Halima is around, Egwene doesn't
> have any useful dreams - her dreams are usually dark, troubled and restless,
> and she cannot remember them.. yet from the instance in COT, she actually has
> some "possible" future dreams and remembers them, and generally has no dark
> dreams that go unremembered. . .
Ishamael at the very least knew that Egwene was a dreamer/dreamwalker
having seen her in TAR. He tells Rand that she can't protect him way
back in tGH or tDR.
ZMarc
> On 21 Jan 2003 14:52:55 -0800, defle...@hotmail.com (Deflection)
> wrote:
>
> >lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> >> Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> I'm convinced, by now, that Halima cannot possibly be Compelling Eg.
> >> Giving her headaches, sure, but Compelling, no. There's just no
> >> sufficient alteration in Eg's behavior, goals, thought processes,
> >> whatever, to continue to believe that theory, IMO. What I still want
> >> to know is why the hell ISN'T she Compelling Eg, for the love of Mike?
> >> Especially since she can't possibly still be under the impression that
> >> Eg is only a puppet.
> >>
> >> What gives?
> >>
I think some very minor Compulsion is going on. Note how Egwene
always seems to make excuses for Halima, whenever anyone says
something like "That woman gives me the creeps," or "what a hussy!"
or, "yeah she broke a grown man's arm, somehow..."
> >He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
> >influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
> >what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No reason
> >to compell.
>
> Um, could it be that Egwene's legendary Two Rivers stubborness is
> protecting her from Compulsion, to some degree? Yes, yes, we all know
> that women are more easily Compelled and otherwise subjugated in
> Jordanverse than men, but it worked for Rand and it worked for
> Morgase, somewhat. The headaches would then be results of her
> subconcious fight against Compulsion. And I doubt that most of Egs
> actions were what Shadow wanted. They would have been better off with
> undivided Tower with Elaida at the helm. And Elaida is probably easier
> to Compell, too.
WHo tried to Compel Rand?
Marc
Connie Spadaro
(Deflection) wrote:
Isn't the golden hawk Berelain sur Paendrag Paeron, who is
also a descendent of Hawkwing? Her crown is a golden hawk
and her army is the Winged Guard. I suspect that Berelain's
armsmen will somehow aid Egwene.
As for Egwene leashing Rand or anyone in the Light--never!
Connie
Allen Bryan
> On 21 Jan 2003 21:53:33 -0800, defle...@hotmail.com
> (Deflection) wrote:
>
> >defle...@hotmail.com (Deflection) wrote in message news:<33cc5aaf.0301...@posting.google.com>...
> >> lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> >> > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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> >> >
> >
> >/WOTFAQ/4_prophecy/4.01_egwene-drm.html
> >"A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the
> >hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was
> >female."
> >
> >-hawk as Tuon (Seanchean Blood)
> >-tied/chained)
> >-emphasis on Hawk being female in the prophecy
> >
> >Deflection
> >-I'm an Ankle Man
>
> Isn't the golden hawk Berelain sur Paendrag Paeron, who is
> also a descendent of Hawkwing? Her crown is a golden hawk
> and her army is the Winged Guard. I suspect that Berelain's
> armsmen will somehow aid Egwene.
The Golden Hawk is the symbol of Artur Hawkwing. As such, it applies
to Berelain and Tuon, who are both descendents of Artur Hawkwing.
Personally, I think it more likely that Egwene and Tuon would be tied
together than Egwene and Berelain. What if Mat brings Tuon to Tar
Valon in the aftermath of the Seanchan raid, so that Tuon can learn
about Aes Sedai for herself?
Allen Bryan
Deflection
I definitely see your point. She has very strong reactions.
-Moghedion, putting/keeping a'dam on captured sul'dam and damane.
Egwene has always done what she thought she had too. I'm not saying
she wants to hurt Rand but if she thinks has to leash him to win the
Last Battle...
Deflection
> Amy Padgett <amy.p...@attbi.nospam.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.189643f74...@netnews.attbi.com>...
> > In article <a35ba6ab.03012...@posting.google.com>,
> > robb...@comcast.net says...
> > > > Scroll, dammit, scroll!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> It is a Major Goal of the Shadow to make the White Tower as
> disorganized, confused, and vulnerable as possible, to reduce
> resistance to the encroaching Shadow. Mesaana's assignment is to cause
> dissension among the Ajahs by:
>
> 1) Breaking the Tower. Done.
> 2) Controlling Elaida and ruining the White Tower's foreign policy.
> Done. The Tower is now in diplomatic shambles; it will never again
> command its supreme role in manipulating events.
> 3) Weakening the Tower by causing dissension within the Ajahs.
> Ongoing, but now interrupted by Alivarin's deposition.
This seems the one strange point in the theory. We know Alivarin was
in Tremalking for a month? or so. Do we have any idea what she was
doing? Was she sent by Messanna? It would appear that she wasn't
beased on Messana's reaction.
However, Shaidar Haran didn't seem to care. My ideas:
-planning with the Seanchan about attacking the tower. Perhaps Suroth
and Semi met with her during their flying around Seanchan controlled
lands while Mta was planning escape in Ebou Dar.
-She was a Dark/Forsaken early warning system for when Rand/Nynaeve
would use the sa'angreals/ She tried to destroy the female one or
tainted it so that it would be destroyed on use.
> 4) Preparing for the final blow: Semi's Seanchan attack.
Ah yes, the Seanchan scout soaring over the tower.
>
> Halima's assignment is to prolong and worsen the Tower Conflict by any
> and all means. She begins by manipulating the one Black Sitter in the
> Salidar Hall, Delana. [She would be using more if she had them.] She
> inveigles her way into Egwene's confidences when that proves
> insufficient.
>
> 1) She repeatedly tries to get Elaida declared Black Ajah. (ACOS 12)
> a) This move would force Elaida to fight to the death, and would
> preclude any compromise.
> b) It would publicly shock and dismay AS on both sides.
> 2) She has Delana support all factions, thus encouraging dissension in
> the Hall. (LOC 37)
> 3) She kills maids to reduce communication between the factions. (TPOD
> 16)
> 4) She repeatedly kills people who are politically useful to Egwene,
> reducing her uniting power and encouraging -- guess what! --
> dissension in the Hall. (COT various)
5? Kill the sister(Can't remember name or ajah off hand) that talks
about Sisters wanting to negotiate with Egwene.
>
> Killing Egwene would be unwise on Halima's part: she would lose all
> the hard work she's invested in Egwene, and she'd have to start over
> in her goal to manipulate the SAS Hall. She wants the conflict to
> waste the AS' time and efforts, eliminate WT influence in the world,
> and make things generally unpleasant. Remember, she's under orders not
> to simply kill them all! My guess is that the Shadow is hoping for
> them to be either all leashed, or converted via 13/13 after certain
> necessary events have transpired. The Shadow was hoping to have them
> move slowly and wind up caught by the Seanchan, but that didn't happen
> due to the rediscovery of Traveling. To make up for this, Semi is
> arranging via Yulin for a airstrike on TV.
Excellent analysis and IMO exactly what is going on!
In fact, the best thing that could happen for the Light considering
the above is for Egwene to get into the tower so that she can work her
mojo to align the tower peacefully(mostly;) from the inside.
Oops she's been captured and presumably taken into the tower:) Maybe
the best evidence overall considering Jordan's style.
Leigh Butler
>wrote:
>>lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
<Halima and headaches>
>>He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
>>influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
>>what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No reason
>>to compell.
>
>Um, could it be that Egwene's legendary Two Rivers stubborness is
>protecting her from Compulsion, to some degree?
This is a valid idea, but...
>Yes, yes, we all know
>that women are more easily Compelled and otherwise subjugated in
>Jordanverse than men,
...um, when did we learn that?
In fact, AFAIR the only people in the series we have actually seen
successfully throwing off Compulsion were both women, Morgase and
Nynaeve (Ny to a greater degree than Morgase, granted, but still).
>but it worked for Rand
When was Rand under Compulsion?
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
Jim Mansfield
news:3e3594db...@news.cis.dfn.de:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:56:24 GMT, Maia <mai...@aon.at> wrote:
>>On 21 Jan 2003 14:52:55 -0800, defle...@hotmail.com (Deflection)
>>wrote:
>>>lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message
>>>news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>
> <Halima and headaches>
>
>>>He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
>>>influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
>>>what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No
>>>reason to compell.
>>
>>Um, could it be that Egwene's legendary Two Rivers stubborness is
>>protecting her from Compulsion, to some degree?
>
> This is a valid idea, but...
I still have yet to read any "compelling" evidence, in fact any evidence
at all, that Halima is using Compulsion of any form on Egwene. There
doesn't even seem to be the slightest indication in the books that this
is the case.
Of course, one can always argue that just because we don't know about it
doesn't mean that Halima isn't ... but I don't buy that.
You'd think that for something of such importance as whether the Amyrlin
Seat is being Compulsed by one of the Forsaken, RJ would have at least
put in a few clues that this was happening!
OTOH, I don't understand why Halima *isn't* Compulsing Egwene rather than
giving her Small Headaches of Evil. You'd think controlling the Amyrlin
would be a good thing to the Forsaken.
-Jim
Dpoc Vyper
>Date: 1/27/2003 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Oops she's been captured and presumably taken into the tower:) Maybe
>the best evidence overall considering Jordan's style.
See my comments in a different thread about why there's no real reason to worry
about Egwene getting captured.
Joe
Vandevere
The only problem with that is that Mat really can't abide Aes Sedai.
It would be a VERY cold day in hell before he goes back there. Have
y'all forgotten that he was there once before, and that, as soon as
his health permitted, the first thing he did was to run away?
Tuon is a possibility. So is Berelain.
Vandevere
Michael Hoye
Jim Mansfield <j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com> wrote:
>
>OTOH, I don't understand why Halima *isn't* Compulsing Egwene rather than
>giving her Small Headaches of Evil. You'd think controlling the Amyrlin
>would be a good thing to the Forsaken.
Who says she's not? Just because we don't have it spelled out, I'd
say it's pretty obvious that this is exactly what's happening.
--
Mike Hoye
Connie Spadaro
(Vandevere) wrote:
Yes, thinking about it some more:
Tuon is a possibility because Egwene had damane experience
and that's a huge unresolved issue with her. Eg is the one
who proved that Rianna and the other sul'dam can channel,
and they happen to be with Mat right now. Since Tuon has
trained damane, we know she can learn to channel. With the
entire Seanchan military strength built upon damane, there's
a major upheaval brewing there, and I believe Egwene would
dearly love to seed that revolution.
Despite Mat's distaste for Aes Sedai, he has come a long way
in maturity. He alone gave Eg her propers when the SAS and
even the servants didn't, making a nice bow and addressing
her as Mother. He stuck his neck out to rescue the AS in
Ebou Dar. Mat's loyalties and sense of right have always
won out over his distaste for any situation, even if only at
the very last minute.
OTOH, In all Eg's other dreams, the hawk was Berelain, who
is admired by the Wise Ones for some reason, and the WO have
strong ties to Egwene and the ability to communicate with
her (unlike Mat at the moment) and influence her alliances.
Which brings me back to the original reason for Deflection
citing this dream (I think):
"A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and
she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew
was that the hawk was female."
Deflection: I wouldn't take it so literally that being tied
to this female hawk means an adam. An alliance is also a
tie, and the hawk stretching out its wing still suggests to
me that Berelain might send her Winged Guards to Egwene's
aid at some future turning. Right now they are committed to
helping Perrin. Or helping Berelain to Perrin, like a hot
meal.
As for Eg and Rand being on a collision course... yeah,
okay, he has to face her anger if she is the [true] Amyrlin
in Elaida's Foretelling. But they still love each other
like a brother and sister who unfortunately push each
others' buttons. Don't look for them to do each other any
deliberate harm. That's inconceivable. Besides, Rand and
Eg both need the support of their close mutual friends.
Opposing each other in any serious way would cause
conflicting loyalties in all the central characters. Would
you want to deal with a furious Nynaeve or Aviendha or
Sorilea or Lan or... Hope you get what I'm trying to say. I
don't think there's any need to be that pessimistic about
any confrontation between Egwene and Rand. Who--granted--
should be talking and planning together regularly, but
aren't. Woolheads.
Connie
Duncan J Macdonald
> leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in
> news:3e3594db...@news.cis.dfn.de:
>
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:56:24 GMT, Maia <mai...@aon.at> wrote:
> >>On 21 Jan 2003 14:52:55 -0800, defle...@hotmail.com (Deflection)
> >>wrote:
> >>>lei...@pacbell.net (Leigh Butler) wrote in message
> >>>news:<3e1d4a78...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> >
> > <Halima and headaches>
> >
> >>>He may just be doing the headaches as a method of distraction or even
> >>>influencing dark prophecy into her Dreams. Egwene is already doing
> >>>what he wants in continuing the chaos between the Aes Sedai. No
> >>>reason to compell.
> >>
> >>Um, could it be that Egwene's legendary Two Rivers stubborness is
> >>protecting her from Compulsion, to some degree?
> >
> > This is a valid idea, but...
>
> I still have yet to read any "compelling" evidence, in fact any evidence
> at all, that Halima is using Compulsion of any form on Egwene. There
> doesn't even seem to be the slightest indication in the books that this
> is the case.
How about her amazing about-face on the Oath Rod Issue? We have books
and books of Egwene running into societies that allow channeling women
to function not only normally, but with higher civic duties performed
with honor. Contrast this with the Aes Sedai who bind themselves to
the Three Oaths, shortening their life spans just so they can meddle
more in the affairs of nations and _still_ not be trusted further than
they can be thrown.
No, she goes and announces to Elayne and Nynaeve that she's decided to
perpetuate this absurd custom, just because Suian said so? Clearer
evidence won't be found that Halima is addling (what little) thoughts
she [Egwene] has.
Plus, Egwene is the only person in the camp who doesn't believe that
Halima is a round-heeled flip-skirt with come-hither eyes (aside from
Delana, who knows that Halima is, at the least, a Friend of the Dark).
RJ practically beats us over the head with a clue-by-four on that
point.
Circumstantial all, but convincing nonetheless.
> Of course, one can always argue that just because we don't know about it
> doesn't mean that Halima isn't ... but I don't buy that.
>
> You'd think that for something of such importance as whether the Amyrlin
> Seat is being Compulsed by one of the Forsaken, RJ would have at least
^^^^^^^^^
Arrrggghh! compelled
> put in a few clues that this was happening!
See above - the clues are there.
> OTOH, I don't understand why Halima *isn't* Compulsing Egwene rather than
^^^^^^^^^^
compelling
> giving her Small Headaches of Evil. You'd think controlling the Amyrlin
> would be a good thing to the Forsaken.
She is. Why else would Egwene not have used Travelling to put her
troops into Tar Valon and captured the entire city? Much easier than
blockading the harbors is capturing them. She could then ring the
White Tower with channelers, and force the issue through force
majeure.
--
Duncan J Macdonald
macdonal...@hq.navy.mil
macdo...@comcast.net
DMacd...@TitanCEG.com
John Biles
"Duncan J Macdonald" <macdo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.189fc49b2...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> She is. Why else would Egwene not have used Travelling to put her
> troops into Tar Valon and captured the entire city? Much easier than
> blockading the harbors is capturing them. She could then ring the
> White Tower with channelers, and force the issue through force
> majeure.
One could argue that Egwene is hoping to push the TAS into surrender with a
minimum of violence. Once her forces travel into Tar Valon itself, the
violence is going to start, and fighting which will kill off a fair number
of Aes Sedai if they get involved would ensue.
Jim Mansfield
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 20:58:40 -0000, Jim Mansfield said...
>> I still have yet to read any "compelling" evidence, in fact any
>> evidence at all, that Halima is using Compulsion of any form on
>> Egwene. There doesn't even seem to be the slightest indication in the
>> books that this is the case.
>
> How about her amazing about-face on the Oath Rod Issue? We have books
> and books of Egwene running into societies that allow channeling women
> to function not only normally, but with higher civic duties performed
> with honor. Contrast this with the Aes Sedai who bind themselves to
> the Three Oaths, shortening their life spans just so they can meddle
> more in the affairs of nations and _still_ not be trusted further than
> they can be thrown.
>
> No, she goes and announces to Elayne and Nynaeve that she's decided to
> perpetuate this absurd custom, just because Suian said so? Clearer
> evidence won't be found that Halima is addling (what little) thoughts
> she [Egwene] has.
>
> Plus, Egwene is the only person in the camp who doesn't believe that
> Halima is a round-heeled flip-skirt with come-hither eyes (aside from
> Delana, who knows that Halima is, at the least, a Friend of the Dark).
> RJ practically beats us over the head with a clue-by-four on that
> point.
>
> Circumstantial all, but convincing nonetheless.
Completely circumstantial.
It's not at all convincing to me. In every other case where Compelling
[1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen evidence of it.
Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and the Da'tsang, etc,
etc.
And on top of it, we've seen the outcomes of those Compellings, whether
it's complete subservience or, in the case of the more stubborn
characters, a bit of rebellion.
All we have is Egwene making some strange decisions, and Halima hanging
around giving her headaches. However, Egwene has always made strange
decisions.
>> Of course, one can always argue that just because we don't know about
>> it doesn't mean that Halima isn't ... but I don't buy that.
As I said before, you can always argue that there is something going on
that we are not being told about in the books ... and given the way RJ
has decided to write the last few books, it's not a bad argument ... but
it is a terrible way to write a book.
I am sticking with the "if the clues ain't in the book, or if RJ doesn't
tell us personally that it is happening (ie, at a signing), then it's all
hot air" Occam's Razor.
-Jim
[1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
Compulsion. See:
The Great Gray Skwid
j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com says...
> It's not at all convincing to me. In every other case where Compelling
> [1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen evidence of it.
> Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and the Da'tsang, etc,
> etc.
> [1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
> Compulsion. See:
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
He's not. He objected to the conjugation "compulsed." One who is under
a compulsion has been compelled, not compulsed.
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"One great big festering neon distraction." -- Tool, _Aenima_
Jim Mansfield
news:MPG.18a06e6b8...@news.gte.com:
> In article <Xns93115E945A6...@216.168.3.44>,
> j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com says...
>> It's not at all convincing to me. In every other case where
>> Compelling [1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen
>> evidence of it. Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and
>> the Da'tsang, etc, etc.
> <snip>
>> [1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
>> Compulsion. See:
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
>
> He's not. He objected to the conjugation "compulsed." One who is
> under a compulsion has been compelled, not compulsed.
My bad.
That's what I get writing at work when I should be doing other things!
-Jim
Michael Hoye
Jim Mansfield <j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com> wrote:
>
>[1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
>Compulsion. See:
>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
"Compulsion" is a noun. One is compelled. One compels.
One does not "compulse".
It says all of that here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
--
Mike Hoye
Mark Loy
<j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com> wrote:
> The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@thehumblest.net> wrote in
> news:MPG.18a06e6b8...@news.gte.com:
> > He's not. He objected to the conjugation "compulsed." One who is
> > under a compulsion has been compelled, not compulsed.
>
> My bad.
>
> That's what I get writing at work when I should be doing other things!
What like...visiting www.bigtittiedmillerlitebabesafightin.com while
surreptiously yet fervently dry-pleasuring yourself with a staple
remover...that kind of other thing?
ML
Jim Mansfield
134.68.134.43:
Mark!
Not having hung out much in rawsfrj much for several years, it's been
years since I've seen such a Loy-ish post ...
I feel honoured ;-)
And, no, it's not a staple remover ... it's FedEx box full of foam
peanuts to which I've made a few, um, modifications.
-Jim
Mark Loy
mh...@prince.carleton.ca (Michael Hoye) wrote:
> In article <Xns93115E945A6...@216.168.3.44>,
> Jim Mansfield <j...@jmansfield.DELETEME.com> wrote:
> >
> >[1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
> >Compulsion. See:
> >http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=compulsion
>
> "Compulsion" is a noun. One is compelled. One compels.
>
> One does not "compulse".
Fuckin' A! You can't be disrespecting our language like that and not face
a compulsory ass-chewing.
Mark "language purist" Loy
Dpoc Vyper
writes:
If the SAS sit outside, and the TAS make the first Offensive strike, it
discredits Elaida. . . In the Eyes of the World, you have a peaceful group
trying to settle this peacefully, and a Warring group.. and the World doesn't
like to think of the AS as being a warring group.. And Elaida has the temper
and the patience of a pit bull.. she is not going to sit long without doing
anything... She wants the rebels punished, birched, stripped of Ajahs till
they can beg to be let in.. She is the one making really unreasonable
demands.. and Egwene just wants Elaida to step down. . . the Longer the
Egwene and the SAS can keep it from coming to actual fighting, the better their
case. . . As even the TAS will see that Egwene's demands are more reasonable -
especially when they all have to start dealing with a maddening Elaida who
starts getting more and more irrational. . . Who wants an irration Amyrlin
who is going against other AS when you can have the Amyrlin on the other side
of the river who cares so much for the Tower and ALL of the AS that she is
trying to prevent as many needless deaths as possible?
Dpoc Vyper
<macdo...@comcast.net> writes:
>How about her amazing about-face on the Oath Rod Issue? We have books
>and books of Egwene running into societies that allow channeling women
>to function not only normally, but with higher civic duties performed
>with honor. Contrast this with the Aes Sedai who bind themselves to
>the Three Oaths, shortening their life spans just so they can meddle
>more in the affairs of nations and _still_ not be trusted further than
>they can be thrown.
>
>No, she goes and announces to Elayne and Nynaeve that she's decided to
>perpetuate this absurd custom, just because Suian said so? Clearer
>evidence won't be found that Halima is addling (what little) thoughts
>she [Egwene] has.
Siuan didn't just say so. . . The whole thing was.. here is Siuan.. free from
the Oaths, like Egwene says she wants all Aes Sedai to be.. and Siuan is
strongly opposed to that.. she wants the Oaths as soon as she can get her hands
on an Oath Rod. . . I thought that lecture was very compelling. . . The Oaths
make Aes Sedai.. without the Oaths, they are just another random group of
female channelers. . . with the Oaths, anyone knows that If an Aes Sedai says
the Sky is yellow, then it must be so. . (though, the sky isn't yellow and no
one would say it was of course, it's just an example). . . Yeah, AS may be
generally mistrusted, but by the same people that glance at them suspiciously
they are welcome, listened to. . . In most major cities, people look warily at
an AS, but if she goes to an Inn and asks for rooms, they are given to her.. AS
are VERY well respected. . . Now, if they stopped swearing on the Oaths, they
would lose the Agelessness, word would get out, and they would lose all the
respect and power and authority that they had gained over the past thousands of
years. . . Oh yeah, no reason at all for Egwene to do a 180 on her ideas about
the Oaths. . . But you can bet if she publically announced that AS were to
stop swearing the Oaths, she wouldn't be Amyrlin longer than it would take to
call the Hall and remove her.
Siuan is very persuasive, and the argument was very persuasive. . Not sure why
some people cannot see that, and that since Egwene has decided to swear on the
Oaths, that it has to be Halima's doing.
Joe
Duncan J Macdonald
> > Circumstantial all, but convincing nonetheless.
>
> Completely circumstantial.
>
> It's not at all convincing to me. In every other case where Compelling
> [1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen evidence of it.
> Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and the Da'tsang, etc,
> etc.
Mileage, she do be a fickle bitch. Obviously, I see evidence of the
compulsion in Egwene's amazing about face on the value of purposefully
handicapping yourself.
> And on top of it, we've seen the outcomes of those Compellings, whether
> it's complete subservience or, in the case of the more stubborn
> characters, a bit of rebellion.
Well, she doesn't keep Halima with her 24/7 ...
> All we have is Egwene making some strange decisions, and Halima hanging
> around giving her headaches. However, Egwene has always made strange
> decisions.
True, as do they all.
> >> Of course, one can always argue that just because we don't know about
> >> it doesn't mean that Halima isn't ... but I don't buy that.
>
> As I said before, you can always argue that there is something going on
> that we are not being told about in the books ... and given the way RJ
> has decided to write the last few books, it's not a bad argument ... but
> it is a terrible way to write a book.
>
> I am sticking with the "if the clues ain't in the book, or if RJ doesn't
> tell us personally that it is happening (ie, at a signing), then it's all
> hot air" Occam's Razor.
>
> -Jim
>
>
> [1] I don't see why you are so upset about the use of the word
> Compulsion. See:
Tomato, Tomato.
Jim Mansfield
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:19:07 -0000, Jim Mansfield said...
>> It's not at all convincing to me. In every other case where
>> Compelling [1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen
>> evidence of it. Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and
>> the Da'tsang, etc, etc.
>
> Mileage, she do be a fickle bitch. Obviously, I see evidence of the
> compulsion in Egwene's amazing about face on the value of purposefully
> handicapping yourself.
Could very well be. The FAQ has a good discussion of it, and I'm not sure
that we've learned anything new from CoT about the situation.
I'll actually be disappointed if it turns out Egwene is being Compelled just
because it could have been written much better to give us more of an evil-
controlling-the-forces-of-good feel rather than evil-causing-minor-headaches-
and-disrupting-sleep kind of feel.
> Tomato, Tomato.
Funny, when I say that, they both sound the same ;-)
-Jim
Alex Goddard
[Context Will Be The Death Of Me Someday]
> Mark "language purist" Loy
I'm sorry, Mark, but thinking of you as any sort of purist just feels
... well, impure.
--
Alex Goddard
agod...@purdue.edu
Lord of the Morning Cup(s) of Coffee
Mark Loy
Goddard <agod...@purdue.edu> wrote:
> In article <mloy-28010...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>
> [Context Will Be The Death Of Me Someday]
>
> > Mark "language purist" Loy
>
> I'm sorry, Mark, but thinking of you as any sort of purist just feels
> ... well, impure.
Oh, shut the fuck up and get on back to Purdueishly studying your ass off, Alex.
I'm expectin' at least...at *least* an anti-gravity Segway-esque type of
innovation from you someday to ease the burden of my life as well as so's
I can make money off you pimpin' shit cause "I knew you when".
And that goes for all yous super-intelligent nerdy fucker type people out
there in virtual school and shit that know me and I know you...get the
fuck off your lazy asses reading Corruption of Trust and what have you and
commence to makin' my life easier with new and improved inventions for
the betterment of mankind and all the ships at sea. I ain't gettin' any
younger and I'll only wait so long for the next great Swiss Army Knife
option or mint flavored duct tape residue.
ML
Mitchell Swan
It warms the cockels of my heart that the flame and dream of
capitalism still burns brightly in our world.
--
Mitch
Alex Goddard
> In article <slrnb3d8fn....@dust.rivmkt61.wintek.com>, Alex
> Goddard <agod...@purdue.edu> wrote:
>
>> In article <mloy-28010...@134.68.134.43>, Mark Loy wrote:
>>
>> [Context Will Be The Death Of Me Someday]
>>
>> > Mark "language purist" Loy
>>
>> I'm sorry, Mark, but thinking of you as any sort of purist just feels
>> ... well, impure.
>
> Oh, shut the fuck up and get on back to Purdueishly studying your ass
> off, Alex.
I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if "Purdueishly studying my
ass off" included having two scantily clad women fan me while I'm working,
a third one feeding me peeled grapes, and a fourth and fifth blowing me.
ObJordan: Hell, I'd be willing to just take the fifth.
> I'm expectin' at least...at *least* an anti-gravity Segway-esque type of
> innovation from you someday to ease the burden of my life as well as so's
> I can make money off you pimpin' shit cause "I knew you when".
Ah. Good. Pressure.
I'm trying to decide whether or not I find the idea of The Loy selling thongs
with my likeness on them ala Wil Wheaton[1] flattering or disturbing.
> And that goes for all yous super-intelligent nerdy fucker type people out
> there in virtual school and shit that know me and I know you...get the
> fuck off your lazy asses reading Corruption of Trust and what have you and
> commence to makin' my life easier with new and improved inventions for
> the betterment of mankind and all the ships at sea. I ain't gettin' any
> younger and I'll only wait so long for the next great Swiss Army Knife
> option or mint flavored duct tape residue.
Am I still on my lazy ass if I'm reading _The Book of Jhereg_ and _The
Aeneid_?
What if I'm reading them standing up, or something?
--
Alex Goddard
agod...@purdue.edu
Lord of the Morning Cup(s) of Coffee
[1] - Eek: http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=wilwheaton.4044479
Dustin Clayton
> [1] has been used on a character in the book, we've seen evidence of it.
> Moggy and Nyn/Elayne, Rahvin and Morgase, Verin and the Da'tsang, etc,
> etc.
All of which have been female channelers. We have had no POVs of male
channelers who have used Compulsion.
> And on top of it, we've seen the outcomes of those Compellings, whether
> it's complete subservience or, in the case of the more stubborn
> characters, a bit of rebellion.
once again, we dont know -what- Hamila wants from Egwene, other than a
few good educated guesses.
Daniell Holm
> When was Rand under Compulsion?
Alanna tried to Compel him when she bonded him. She said something
like, "Have you tried unrooting a tree with your bare hands? It was
like that".
Leigh Butler
wrote:
That's not the same thing, at least the AS don't consider it so.
Actually, I'm unclear, exactly, on how the Warder obedience thing is
different from Compulsion except in the most technical sense. (This is
excluding, of course, the "extra bit" version Logain etc. used on
Toveine's group, which at least has the virtue of calling a spade a
spade.)
But in any case, if we buy that the Warder bond qualifies as
Compulsion then it actually disproves the original poster's assertion
(that men are less susceptible to Compulsion than women), since
Alanna's reaction indicates that Rand's resistance to her is unique
among the general run of Warders - possibly including the other
Asha'man Warders. (Merise certainly doesn't seem to have any trouble
with Narishma, after all.)
Anyway, it's a completed unsupported idea, AFAICT. I'm sure that both
men and women as a group are equally suspectible to Compulsion, and
how well you can throw it off depends on character rather than gender.
Duncan J Macdonald
I didn't say gate into the Tower - just gate into Tar Valon, and put
your siege around the Tower. Much stronger bargaining point, and a
smaller boundary to guard.
The other points you mention still hold. Elaida would be forced to
make the first non-peaceful Aes Sedai vs Aes Sedai move.
Richard Boye'
>
> On 28 Jan 2003 17:24:50 -0800, dra...@hotmail.com (Daniell Holm)
> wrote:
> >leigh_...@paramount.com (Leigh Butler) wrote in message news:<3e3594db...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
>
> >> When was Rand under Compulsion?
> >
> >Alanna tried to Compel him when she bonded him. She said something
> >like, "Have you tried unrooting a tree with your bare hands? It was
> >like that".
>
> That's not the same thing, at least the AS don't consider it so.
>
> Actually, I'm unclear, exactly, on how the Warder obedience thing is
> different from Compulsion except in the most technical sense. (This is
> excluding, of course, the "extra bit" version Logain etc. used on
> Toveine's group, which at least has the virtue of calling a spade a
> spade.)
>
> But in any case, if we buy that the Warder bond qualifies as
> Compulsion then it actually disproves the original poster's assertion
> (that men are less susceptible to Compulsion than women), since
> Alanna's reaction indicates that Rand's resistance to her is unique
> among the general run of Warders - possibly including the other
> Asha'man Warders. (Merise certainly doesn't seem to have any trouble
> with Narishma, after all.)
>
> Anyway, it's a completed unsupported idea, AFAICT. I'm sure that both
> men and women as a group are equally suspectible to Compulsion, and
> how well you can throw it off depends on character rather than gender.
As an example, Taim put a Compulsive whammy on Bashere's emissaries, and
both they and their wives are "only fit to fetch and serve."
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Duncan J Macdonald
> In article <MPG.189fc49b2...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Duncan J Macdonald
> <macdo...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> >How about her amazing about-face on the Oath Rod Issue? We have books
> >and books of Egwene running into societies that allow channeling women
> >to function not only normally, but with higher civic duties performed
> >with honor. Contrast this with the Aes Sedai who bind themselves to
> >the Three Oaths, shortening their life spans just so they can meddle
> >more in the affairs of nations and _still_ not be trusted further than
> >they can be thrown.
> >
> >No, she goes and announces to Elayne and Nynaeve that she's decided to
> >perpetuate this absurd custom, just because Suian said so? Clearer
> >evidence won't be found that Halima is addling (what little) thoughts
> >she [Egwene] has.
>
>
> Siuan didn't just say so. . . The whole thing was.. here is Siuan.. free from
> the Oaths, like Egwene says she wants all Aes Sedai to be.. and Siuan is
> strongly opposed to that.. she wants the Oaths as soon as she can get her hands
> on an Oath Rod. . .
Suian is still in shock - plus, she knows from experience that stilled
channelers need to have a strong purpose in life if they wish to keep
on living. Her Healing has removed that 'almost dead' thing, but she
is still very much a creature of her times.
> I thought that lecture was very compelling. . . The Oaths
> make Aes Sedai.. without the Oaths, they are just another random group of
> female channelers. . . with the Oaths, anyone knows that If an Aes Sedai says
> the Sky is yellow, then it must be so. . (though, the sky isn't yellow and no
> one would say it was of course, it's just an example). . . Yeah, AS may be
> generally mistrusted, but by the same people that glance at them suspiciously
> they are welcome, listened to. . . In most major cities, people look warily at
> an AS, but if she goes to an Inn and asks for rooms, they are given to her.. AS
> are VERY well respected. . . Now, if they stopped swearing on the Oaths, they
> would lose the Agelessness, word would get out, and they would lose all the
> respect and power and authority that they had gained over the past thousands of
> years. . .
Sheriam to Nynaeve:
[TGH,Orbit pb, 23, _The Testing_, p 335-336]
"Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what
Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for
more. Many of us wish it were so still. That we swear these oaths,
that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us
without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power,
against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred
Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still
stands, and we do what we can against the Shadow."
The Trolloc Wars lasted from 1000 AB to approximately 1350 AB (FY 1),
and The War of the Hundred Years from FY 994 to FY 1117 (NE 1). It's
now NE 1000. So, somewhere between 1126 and 2120 years ago, the Oath
Rod started to be used.
The Breaking was c. 3000 years ago. So, for less than half that time,
Aes Sedai were bound.
> Oh yeah, no reason at all for Egwene to do a 180 on her ideas about
> the Oaths. . . But you can bet if she publically announced that AS were to
> stop swearing the Oaths, she wouldn't be Amyrlin longer than it would take to
> call the Hall and remove her.
Egwene has the knowledge of the Wise Ones, who swear no oaths, have
been organized for longer than the White Tower, and have even more
political power than any Aes Sedai could dream of. She has the example
of the Windfinders - they have no problems being what they are without
being bound. She has the example of the Kin - a far stronger
organization than the Tower, and they have power and respect too.
> Siuan is very persuasive, and the argument was very persuasive. . Not sure why
> some people cannot see that, and that since Egwene has decided to swear on the
> Oaths, that it has to be Halima's doing.
Because it's out of character for Egwene to make that decision.
YMOV.
Dpoc Vyper
>From: Duncan J Macdonald macdo...@comcast.net
>Date: 1/28/2003 7:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <MPG.18a112c26...@news.cis.dfn.de>
So they made the choice. . . The point is, thay made the choice to ease the
nations fears of the OP. If it gets out that the AS are no longer bound to
the three oaths, who is going to trust them anymore? Most people half trust
them as it is, but they respect them, and if not for the three oaths, most
people would fear them too much to trust them. Because of the three Oaths,
people know that an AS cannot lie, and they cannot use the OP against them in a
hostile fashion. Take that away, and you soon lead to witch hunts and
inquisitions, and basically a WC attitute by the majority of the world, instead
of a select group.
>
>The Trolloc Wars lasted from 1000 AB to approximately 1350 AB (FY 1),
>and The War of the Hundred Years from FY 994 to FY 1117 (NE 1). It's
>now NE 1000. So, somewhere between 1126 and 2120 years ago, the Oath
>Rod started to be used.
>
>The Breaking was c. 3000 years ago. So, for less than half that time,
>Aes Sedai were bound.
>
>> Oh yeah, no reason at all for Egwene to do a 180 on her ideas about
>> the Oaths. . . But you can bet if she publically announced that AS were to
>> stop swearing the Oaths, she wouldn't be Amyrlin longer than it would take
>to
>> call the Hall and remove her.
>
>Egwene has the knowledge of the Wise Ones, who swear no oaths, have
>been organized for longer than the White Tower, and have even more
>political power than any Aes Sedai could dream of. She has the example
>of the Windfinders - they have no problems being what they are without
>being bound. She has the example of the Kin - a far stronger
>organization than the Tower, and they have power and respect too.
>
But less than half of the people even knew about Windfinders, even the AS
figured channeling was a rare streak in them. The Sea Folk use channeling for
the most part to help them in navigation and managing their vessels. Since so
little of the world knews about Windfinders, We have no idea how they would
react, so this cannot be used as a good example.
As for the Wise Ones. They are exempt in battle, they do not fight, they sit
back in the sidelines. Except for rare cases like Dumai's Wells, Wiseones can
walk through a battleground untouched. But for Aiel in general, they are hated
and feared. So again, just because their channelers are not bound is
irrelevent. Wiseones and Windfiners Are _Not_ Aes Sedai.
"And a bit from your quote Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred
Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands,
and we do what we can against the Shadow."
Sounds a lot to me like if they had not made the choices, the world at large
would have forced the demise of the Aes Sedai - no reason to think that the AS
would last if they denounced the Oaths now, regardless of Egwene's experience
with Wise Ones, Windfinders, or Kin.
>> Siuan is very persuasive, and the argument was very persuasive. . Not sure
>why
>> some people cannot see that, and that since Egwene has decided to swear on
>the
>> Oaths, that it has to be Halima's doing.
>
>Because it's out of character for Egwene to make that decision.
>
>YMOV.
I am unfamiliar with YMOV... although, it is probably something simple. But I
don't think it is out of character. Egwene has grown up a lot. At first, she
was simply seeing the benefits of being able to lie, and being able to send a
bolt of Fire at any enemy she choses. Since she has matured, and learned that
being AS isn't about tossing balls of Fire, or being able to channel
(Windfinders and Wiseones can channel, but they aren't AS), then she has
decided that since she is Amyrlin, then she needs to do what she can to
preserve the WT and the AS, and that means swearing on the Oath Rods. I don't
think Halima has anythign to do with that. I simply think Halima wants to stay
very close to Egwene to milk information from her, because among the Forsaken,
knowledge is power.
Joe
Dpoc Vyper
>From: Duncan J Macdonald macdo...@comcast.net
>I didn't say gate into the Tower - just gate into Tar Valon, and put
>your siege around the Tower. Much stronger bargaining point, and a
>smaller boundary to guard.
>
>The other points you mention still hold. Elaida would be forced to
>make the first non-peaceful Aes Sedai vs Aes Sedai move.
>
>--
>Duncan J Macdonald
>macdonal...@hq.navy.mil
>macdo...@comcast.net
>DMacd...@TitanCEG.com
>
Yeah, when I read POD, I pictured Egwene and her company to come pouring out
into the Tower Grounds.
The only problem with Gating into the city and surrounding the tower, is that
you then have two fronts to guard, the inner circle (the tower), and the outer
circle. You can be attacked from within the tower, or from the outer city. it
is always best to push your way in, instead of setting yourself between the
enemy. But it still would have been very cool. Instead, they travel on the
other side of the river, where they have to wait for a while and nothing
happens except some murders.
Oh, Okay, and what was up with Lelaine's mocking Egwene in her study? The
passage mentioned that Romanda and Lelaine knew what was going to happen that
night. It seems like Lelaine might be a traitor, especially with her comments
about when the White Tower makes mistakes, that it has to rectify those
mistakes, and the next thing you know, the Gate-sabateurs get set up. Curious.
Therese
(dpoc...@aol.com) wrote:
(Wise Ones)
> But for Aiel in general, they are hated
> and feared.
No, the Aiel in general respect and honour the Wise Ones.
--
Therese Wikström