Taim and Dashiva
R. Lotun
notice at the end of PoD when Rand told Taim to add Dashiva
to the list of deserters, Taim was completely shocked? I mean,
throughout the whole series since Taim's arrival, he's been
almost rock-solid calm. For these two lines he was totally unstable.
Also, in about the middle of PoD when Rand inadvertadly talks about
cleansing saidin, all the asha'man bore facial expressions of wonder
and hope, but Dashiva looked poleaxed (shocked/surprised).
Also, Dashiva seems 90% of the time to put on a face of some farmer
turned Asha'man, but now and then when he's speaking to Rand he
begins to turn snappy and imperious. Dashiva seems totally unused
to a sword, even after rudimentary training. There're other things too.
Could this point to Dashiva as Osan'gar as Aginor? Aginor was an
intellectual, he wouldn't care for weapons. He acts just like a forsaken
would sometimes. He has a sort of twisted sense of humour, like
Aginor does, as shown in the beginning of LoC.
What do you think?
R. Lotun
Webby
Hrm, ya. Darshiva was always weird as hell. And lots and lots of
people have said he is Osan'gar(That Osan'gar is Aginor is carved in
stone) But some of things you mentioned would make sense. A Forsaken
would be REALLY annoyed if the Taint was cleansed(Or really scared
because the DO would be really annoyed), but everyone else would be
"Woohoo! Go Rand! Clean that Taint!"(Hrm, that sounded dumb) But I
woudthink Aginor would be a bit better with a sword. He did prob have
to use a sword back in the AoL once or twice.
But the DO doesnt want Rand dead. And Darshiva attacked Rand. Those
two dont fit. (Unless the attack had a purprose other then killing
him) And what are he voices in Darshiva's head? That seems like a bit
much for him to act those too. And the Taint-Filter from the DO would
be detectable by Rand, and he would start cookin' with Balefire once
he finds one of those Taint-Filters on anyone. And I dont see Aginor
as willing to go channel Tainted-saidin without a filter
Or it could just be that Darshiva is just a weirdo.
But I woudl like to have a location placed on Osan'gar. Along with the
rest of them all that we dont know.
>R. Lotun
>
Stiff, Dried, Creaking Monkey
was totally put on and a real bad acting job. He's
hiding something, obviously, even if he is not
Demandred or another Forsaken. He KNEW about Dashiva,
or was not really surprised. He is faking it.
At least that's what it seemed like to me.
Peace,
Tamdakh Arulean
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
Regnus
Webby wrote in message <369f9d40...@news.thuntek.net>...
Rand only sees the link to the DO when he is in TAR or in the little
Skimming place. He cant see it all the time! When has he seen Dashiva in
TAR? Has he Skimmed with Dashiva? I don't think he has so Rand wouldn't
see any kind of link to the DO from Dashiva. I am not saying that Dashiva
is or isn't O'gar. I am just pointing out that your proof that he isn't is
flawed. Plus, who says that the DO didn't tell O'Gar to attack Rand. We
can see from Moridin that he was intructed to stir up chaos since the DO
gains. Think of the Chaos that would come over the DR buying the farm? All
I am saying is that we have no idea what the DO wants or what he told some
of the Forsaken to do.
Regnus
jare
Aginor was a "mad scientist" so I don't really think he had to use a sword
in AoL. He probably had never touched one before.
Neil Anderson
jare wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Aginor was a "mad scientist" so I don't really think he had to use a sword
> in AoL. He probably had never touched one before.
Check the Big White Crap Book (tm) which should tell us whether Aginor did
anyhting in the Aol in the military field.
Neil Anderson
DriztDo
>for sure?
Hmm... lets see....Second most powerful Forsaken...Ishar Morrad
Chuain...understood most basic structures of living things....disciplined for
working on animals...created Shadowspawn...Ahh, here it is. "As far as is
know, Aginor held no firld commands and never served as govener." It seems he
did have authority to obtain the materials for his experiments. About 10,000
people were taken a day to make his creations.
Well there you go.
-------------------
Matt McKenzie
Dri...@aol.com
"If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have ever spent that year in college."
-girl at IHOP
Venit
(snip all content, useful or otherwise)
> -------------------
> Matt McKenzie
> Dri...@aol.com
> "If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have ever spent that year in college."
> -girl at IHOP
Louis Black. That show was hilarious.
--
Chris Venit
"I don't think a person should believe in an -ism. I think a person
should believe in himself."
Bill
> Aginor was a "mad scientist" so I don't really think he had to use a sword
> in AoL. He probably had never touched one before.
Dashiva told Flinn to study healing, claiming he had no
feel for it himself. Would our mad scientist/genetic engineer
have no feel for healing? Or was this a lie aiming at keeing
Taim/Demandred from identifying Dashiva/Aginor? That is, if
Aginor started doing micro
jare
Neil Anderson wrote in message <36A0B48F...@hartford.bm>...
>
>
>jare wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Aginor was a "mad scientist" so I don't really think he had to use a
sword
>> in AoL. He probably had never touched one before.
>
Brian Prodoehl
R. Lotun <rlo...@home.com> wrote in article <369F93DF...@home.com>...
> I'm not sure whether this was mentioned before, but did anyone
> notice at the end of PoD when Rand told Taim to add Dashiva
> to the list of deserters, Taim was completely shocked? I mean,
> throughout the whole series since Taim's arrival, he's been
> almost rock-solid calm. For these two lines he was totally unstable.
>
> Also, in about the middle of PoD when Rand inadvertadly talks about
> cleansing saidin, all the asha'man bore facial expressions of wonder
> and hope, but Dashiva looked poleaxed (shocked/surprised).
>
> Also, Dashiva seems 90% of the time to put on a face of some farmer
> turned Asha'man, but now and then when he's speaking to Rand he
> begins to turn snappy and imperious. Dashiva seems totally unused
> to a sword, even after rudimentary training. There're other things too.
>
> Could this point to Dashiva as Osan'gar as Aginor? Aginor was an
> intellectual, he wouldn't care for weapons. He acts just like a forsaken
>
> would sometimes. He has a sort of twisted sense of humour, like
> Aginor does, as shown in the beginning of LoC.
>
> What do you think?
>
> R. Lotun
>
Without a doubt in my mind. I don't recall the exact words that the guide
used to describe Aginor, but it definitely describes Dashiva's actions in
Aginor's profile.
>
Rebel Yell
> >notice at the end of PoD when Rand told Taim to add Dashiva
> >to the list of deserters, Taim was completely shocked? I mean,
> >throughout the whole series since Taim's arrival, he's been
> >almost rock-solid calm. For these two lines he was totally unstable.
> >
> >Also, in about the middle of PoD when Rand inadvertadly talks about
> >cleansing saidin, all the asha'man bore facial expressions of wonder
> >and hope, but Dashiva looked poleaxed (shocked/surprised).
> >
> >Also, Dashiva seems 90% of the time to put on a face of some farmer
> >turned Asha'man, but now and then when he's speaking to Rand he
> >begins to turn snappy and imperious. Dashiva seems totally unused
> >to a sword, even after rudimentary training. There're other things too.
> >
> >Could this point to Dashiva as Osan'gar as Aginor? Aginor was an
> >intellectual, he wouldn't care for weapons. He acts just like a forsaken
> >
> >would sometimes. He has a sort of twisted sense of humour, like
> >Aginor does, as shown in the beginning of LoC.
> >
> >What do you think?
>
> people have said he is Osan'gar(That Osan'gar is Aginor is carved in
> stone) But some of things you mentioned would make sense. A Forsaken
> would be REALLY annoyed if the Taint was cleansed(Or really scared
> because the DO would be really annoyed), but everyone else would be
> "Woohoo! Go Rand! Clean that Taint!"(Hrm, that sounded dumb) But I
> woudthink Aginor would be a bit better with a sword. He did prob have
> to use a sword back in the AoL once or twice.
>
> But the DO doesnt want Rand dead. And Darshiva attacked Rand. Those
> two dont fit. (Unless the attack had a purprose other then killing
> him) And what are he voices in Darshiva's head? That seems like a bit
> much for him to act those too. And the Taint-Filter from the DO would
> be detectable by Rand, and he would start cookin' with Balefire once
> he finds one of those Taint-Filters on anyone. And I dont see Aginor
> as willing to go channel Tainted-saidin without a filter
>
> Or it could just be that Darshiva is just a weirdo.
>
> But I woudl like to have a location placed on Osan'gar. Along with the
> rest of them all that we dont know.
Here's a wacky theory... Dem is Taim and maybe Dash is the real Taim.
If Taim were a DF and getting training from Dem during his stint as the
DR, then he could be working with Dem now and posing as Dash. This
would explain why Taimendred was so surprised by the atttack on Rand and
why Dash is so superior in knowledge and occasionally attitude without
Dash being one of the Foresaken. This could explain why he still
suffers symptoms of the taint but doesn't sem to be what he calims.
Nachtergal Philippe
Note, it still is possible that Dashiva is Osan'gar, if S. Haran or
whoever calmly pointed out to him that the big filter would make him
recognizable by Rand i think Osan'gar would have happily ( that's the
official version sir) agreed.
Anyway, given that those arangar Osan'gar names are paired (left and
right-hand dagger), it seems quite fitting for them two to be placed in
a symetrical position. Since i can hardly think a male chosen would hide
in the white tower, i believe the symetric to Arangar is in the black
tower.
No, can someone remeber me what's the Ashaman name that Taim gave as an
excuse when he came to visit Rand and killed the gray man ?
Was it Dashiva or was it Narishma ?
(I don't think Taim would casually point Rand to Dashiva if he was a
chosen.)
Nachtergal Ph.
jare
Bill wrote in message <36A112...@Charleston.Net>...
>jare wrote:
>
>> Aginor was a "mad scientist" so I don't really think he had to use a
sword
>> in AoL. He probably had never touched one before.
>
>feel for it himself. Would our mad scientist/genetic engineer
>have no feel for healing? Or was this a lie aiming at keeing
>Taim/Demandred from identifying Dashiva/Aginor? That is, if
>Aginor started doing micro
Hmm, well healing and science don't necessarily go hand in hand. It's quite
possible that Aginor never had any feel for healing, he was more interested
in creating things.
Fay Wouk
> Webby wrote:
> >
> > But the DO doesnt want Rand dead. And Darshiva attacked Rand. Those
> > two dont fit. (Unless the attack had a purprose other then killing
> > him) And what are he voices in Darshiva's head? That seems like a bit
> > much for him to act those too. And the Taint-Filter from the DO would
> > be detectable by Rand, and he would start cookin' with Balefire once
> > he finds one of those Taint-Filters on anyone. And I dont see Aginor
> > as willing to go channel Tainted-saidin without a filter
> >
I thought Rand only saw the cords connecting to the DO in TAR. To cut
Asmodean's didn't he have to remember where they were? In which case,
since Rand and Dashiva have never been in TAR in the flesh together Rand
wouldn't know Dashiva was connected.
My problem with Dashiva as Aginor is that Dashiva is so obviously nuts -
talking to himself all the time etc. Unless he's faking it, this doesn't
make sense, since he's protected from the taint. I know he's supposed to
be a "mad scientist" but that's not necessarily the same as hearing voices
in your head.
Fay
Neil Anderson
Nachtergal Philippe wrote:
> <snip>
>
> No, can someone remeber me what's the Ashaman name that Taim gave as an
> excuse when he came to visit Rand and killed the gray man ?
> Was it Dashiva or was it Narishma ?
> (I don't think Taim would casually point Rand to Dashiva if he was a
> chosen.)
It was Narishma, IIRC
Neil Anderson
The Nutmeg of Consol(id)ation
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
scientists are prone to do so.
Fay Wouk
Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere. Actually, I think
I picked the idea up from other posts on this ng, and it seemed to make
sense, given his behavior. There's no way of knowing which it is, but
that's not really my point, although it was my supporting evidence. My
point was that Dashiva strikes me as pretty out of it, and I thought his
behavior was more taint-like than mad scientist-like. However, I'm
perfectly happy to be convinced that I'm wrong, since it would make things
much more neat and tiday if he is a 'gar.
Fay
Bill
Fay wrote:
> Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere. Actually, I think
> I picked the idea up from other posts on this ng, and it seemed to make
> sense, given his behavior. There's no way of knowing which it is, but
> that's not really my point, although it was my supporting evidence. My
> point was that Dashiva strikes me as pretty out of it, and I thought his
> behavior was more taint-like than mad scientist-like. However, I'm
> perfectly happy to be convinced that I'm wrong, since it would make things
> much more neat and tiday if he is a 'gar.
He doesn't seem distracted or crazy when he tries to
get Rand to see that Saidin is behaving oddly. I see him
as acting very Forsaken-like in that situation.
The puzzle is why would Aginor try to kill Rand? Wouldn't
he be cowed by Shadar Haran? Or was this one more attempt that
was supposed to fail?
(Moridin/Ishy "tried" to kill Rand didn't he? Sure.)
It seems to me that POD tells Rand's story from new King of
Illian to some kind of new phase--somewhat underground. Part
of the story is his victory over the Seanchan (that he fails
to see as a victory,) but much of it is the attempts on his
life. Perhaps Moridin orchestrated all of that to get Rand
to give up his high-profile position as ruler of a large piece
of the world and go into quasi-hiding. It would fit in with
Moridin's claims early in the book that he is manipulating
everything. The attack by Dashiva'gar would be one more attempt
to get Rand to make that move.
At this time, I am not inclined to believe that the DO really
wants Rand dead. While I admit that this does suggest that
Dashiva isn't Aginor, one still must consider all of Taim's other
nasty, high-ranking Asha'man.
I'm still going with Taim is Demandred, the high ranking
Asha'man that are so hateful to Rand from the start are DF,
and Dashiva is Aginor. What Moridin is up to with their
behavior is a puzzle about which we must read and find out.
(By the way, many, many pages of POD are about the
completition of a plot line that began in LOC. Matt
helping Elaine find the BOW so that he could get her to Andor
and Elaine and Nyn finding the BOW to fix the weather. The
weather is now fixed, Elaine is in Andor, and Matt is now
free to take the next step. Even his army is no longer
following the Salidar Aes Sedai. POD disengaged Matt
from the "girls" without him even appearing!)
f...@kki.org
Fay Wouk schrieb in Nachricht ...
>In article <36A3EB...@unet.univie.ac.at>, a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
wrote:
>
>> Fay Wouk wrote:
>> >
>> > > Webby wrote:
>> Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
>> speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
>> scientists are prone to do so.
Rand does hear Lews voice, and Rand really is both Rand and Lews which is
proven by Perrins nose: Rands smell changes too fast for one man, and thats
because he is _TWO_ men!
Dashivas smell changes as fast, and he is talking to himself.
I'd assume that _every_ male channeler is the rebirth of another male
channeler and during the madness theyr former incarnations are talking to
them, and are really inside their new incarnations heads...
Sorry, got a bit loony in the end but at least you'll get the basic ideas (I
hope so...)
Ciao, Fabian ( fm@*spamsuckZ*kki.org )
Homepage: http://silicius.home.ml.org
____
Master of the lightings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.
- From the Prophecies of the Dragon
Webby
>
>Fay Wouk schrieb in Nachricht ...
>>In article <36A3EB...@unet.univie.ac.at>, a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
>wrote:
>>
>>> Fay Wouk wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Webby wrote:
>>> Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
>>> speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
>>> scientists are prone to do so.
>Let's say its quite obvious since:
>Rand does hear Lews voice, and Rand really is both Rand and Lews which is
>proven by Perrins nose: Rands smell changes too fast for one man, and thats
>because he is _TWO_ men!
>Dashivas smell changes as fast, and he is talking to himself.
>I'd assume that _every_ male channeler is the rebirth of another male
>channeler and during the madness theyr former incarnations are talking to
>them, and are really inside their new incarnations heads...
Moridin is a Reborn Forsaken. he doesnt hear the voices.
Its either: Dashiva is Osan'gar ans he is acting the voices
or Dashiva is just meany of a Asha'man.
Whatever the DO says, Osan'gar would not go out and channel Saidin
without a Taint Filter. But I dont knw if Rand can see those. he only
saw them under specials circumstanes before. Inside a Skimming area,
Rhuidian was weird too, and the fight at the EotW was weird too. Could
be that Ranhd cannt see Taint-Filters under normal circumstances, and
Osan'gar woud be fine as Dashiva and an Actor
Daniel Demus
Fay Wouk wrote:
>
> In article <36A3EB...@unet.univie.ac.at>, a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
>
> > Fay Wouk wrote:
> > >
> > > > Webby wrote:
> > >
> > > My problem with Dashiva as Aginor is that Dashiva is so obviously nuts -
> > > talking to himself all the time etc. Unless he's faking it, this doesn't
> > > make sense, since he's protected from the taint. I know he's supposed to
> > > be a "mad scientist" but that's not necessarily the same as hearing voices
> > > in your head.
> >
> > Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
> > speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
> > scientists are prone to do so.
>
> Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere. Actually, I think
> I picked the idea up from other posts on this ng, and it seemed to make
> sense, given his behavior. There's no way of knowing which it is, but
> that's not really my point, although it was my supporting evidence. My
> point was that Dashiva strikes me as pretty out of it, and I thought his
> behavior was more taint-like than mad scientist-like. However, I'm
> perfectly happy to be convinced that I'm wrong, since it would make things
> much more neat and tiday if he is a 'gar.
>
It's not as if Aginor was totally stable when we first met him in his
new incarnation - the giggling, the POV where he thinks the other Chosen
considered him a bit around the bend.
I think he fits Dashiva quite nicely, actually.
--
Daniel
"Let's rape the fields and pillage the women....
Doooh!"
UIN: 11216730
To reply in newsgroups remember that softhome is only a net, not a com.
Mike Jason
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Rebel Yell wrote:
>
> > Webby wrote:
> >
> > But the DO doesnt want Rand dead. And Darshiva attacked Rand. Those
> > two dont fit.
>
> If Taim were a DF and getting training from Dem during his stint as the
> DR, then he could be working with Dem now and posing as Dash. This
> would explain why Taimendred was so surprised by the atttack on Rand and
> why Dash is so superior in knowledge and occasionally attitude without
> Dash being one of the Foresaken. This could explain why he still
> suffers symptoms of the taint but doesn't sem to be what he calims.
This is in response to the suggestion that Taim is Demandred. One of
the points mentioned which suggests Dashiva is not a Forskaen or otherwise
a DF is that he is acting contrary to the DO's instructions.
If this is a criteria which can render someone innocent of being
Forsaken, then Taim could not be Demandred.
Perhaps the only clear instruction of the DO which we have heard
directly from the DO, and supported by several of the characters, is the
directive to foment chaos in the world.
This is told specifically to Demandred, in LoC, to let the Lord of Chaos
rule, Sammael claims to be following this directive when he gives the
"travelling boxes" to the Shaido, and Graendal agrees in ACoS, and the
Watcher who uses the True Power, clearly favoured by the DO, agrees that
this directive to spread chaos, in small increments as well as large is in
the DO's plan.
However, in PoD, Taim is first shown to be tightly controlling the
Black Tower with respect to madness. If sending bunches of Aiel around is
spreading chaos, how much more effective would it be to let fifty Fedwin
Morr's Travel around the world?
Instead, Taim is quietly eliminating all who go mad, and tracking them
down rapidly enough that there are no rumours from anywhere that the
"amnesty" has resulted in destruction or chaos for anyone.
He has created a highly organized and effective army, from top to
bottom, and in many ways it seems that the Black Tower is spreading much
less chaos than the White Tower. In addition to this, in his recruiting
expeditions he has been gathering all malcontents who might form an army,
or add to bandits or general chaos of dragonsworn, and has been steadily
turning them over to Bashere to form a strong, disciplined and ordered
fighting force.
These things were all done while the DO's chaos spreading order was
still in effect. To me, that makes it highly unlikely that Taim could be
a tool of the DO.
Additionally, with the people going mad, even if Taim didn't let them
go haring off to destroy the countryside, it would be much less wasteful
for him to gate them out to near Shayol Ghul, hand them to SH, tell him to
make a bunch more cour'souvra's to have new dreadlords for the return,
come back to the Black Tower and tell everyone that the problem is solved.
As it is, he kills them relatively mercifully and is removing potential
threats to Rand.
Mike
Laura M. Parkinson
Hrm.. personally, I wouldn't read too much into either the order "Let
the Lord of Chaos rule" or into the "fact" that Taim is killing off
the madmen in the Black Tower. With the first, I'm not saying that the
Forsaken shouldn't follow the DO's orders. But the orders aren't to
sow Chaos, they are to Let the Lord of Chaos rule. In other words, to
let Rand rule. Lord of Chaos is just the name that the DO is using for
Rand. And Taim, whether he is Demandred or not (I think he is) is
doing exactly what the DO said... letting Rand order him around,
something he despises, and letting him run free.
Of course, the DO still may want some Chaos. Not too much, I'd
imagine, since it would be easier to control people if they are still
fairly organized at the time of being taken over the the DO's troops,
without bandits or the like to nip at the heels of the bad guys. But
as to the madmen that Taim is offing adding to that chaos... how do we
know that Taim is, in fact, offing the madmen in the BT? He may,
true.. and he may just be offing one or two that have gone insane in
front of the other Asha'man, and using the poison as a cover story to
off the Asha'man that would be loyal to Rand, and not to himself.
Logain himself hints that he might not be around if he weren't so
"visible" and if Rand hadn't ordered otherwise. Narishma and Flynn and
the other loyal Asha'man that we've seen have been kept with Rand
since these poisonings started, as far as we know. If they weren't,
perhaps a few of them would have found themselves with a cup of tea
for bed as well.
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1327
VampCode Beta: PNlmpA23MrHnWc* VS\/^I\/^^\/^B\/^^WnRnH\/^ NR^\/^^\/^L\/^Oci
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Mike Jason
On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
> Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> pondered for a while, then blurted out:
> >
> > Perhaps the only clear instruction of the DO which we have heard
> >directly from the DO, and supported by several of the characters, is the
> >directive to foment chaos in the world.
> > This is told specifically to Demandred, in LoC, to let the Lord of Chaos
> >rule, Sammael claims to be following this directive when he gives the
> >"travelling boxes" to the Shaido, and Graendal agrees in ACoS, and the
> >Watcher who uses the True Power, clearly favoured by the DO, agrees that
> >this directive to spread chaos, in small increments as well as large is in
> >the DO's plan.
> >
>
> Hrm.. personally, I wouldn't read too much into either the order "Let
> the Lord of Chaos rule" or into the "fact" that Taim is killing off
> the madmen in the Black Tower. With the first, I'm not saying that the
> Forsaken shouldn't follow the DO's orders. But the orders aren't to
> sow Chaos, they are to Let the Lord of Chaos rule. In other words, to
> let Rand rule. Lord of Chaos is just the name that the DO is using for
> Rand. And Taim, whether he is Demandred or not (I think he is) is
> doing exactly what the DO said... letting Rand order him around,
> something he despises, and letting him run free.
True, that was the way the order was worded specifically for Taim.
However, from Sammael, Graendel and the Watcher it is apparent that the
goal of the DO is to spread chaos. Part of that involves letting Rand run
around messing things up, and probably also involves letting him gather
and train a bunch of men to go mad and wreck things. It doesn't fit in
with that goal having the men turned into a neatly organized group.
>
> Of course, the DO still may want some Chaos. Not too much, I'd
> imagine, since it would be easier to control people if they are still
> fairly organized at the time of being taken over the the DO's troops,
> without bandits or the like to nip at the heels of the bad guys.
As to that, I don't think this is in accord with the actions the DO has
taken already. Graendal has created chaos on a grand scale in Shara, and
apparently is hard at work in Arad Doman as well. Sammael was sending
Shaido all over the place, the Whitecloaks' resident darkfriends were sent
to create bandits in the form of dragonsworn in Altara and Murandy, and
Rahvin's darkfriends were permitted to infest Cairhien with bandits.
It makes sense really. The DO doesn't need to worry about organizing
nations and armies after he wins. Rather he needs to worry about making
nations weak enough to conquer easily at Tarmon Gaidon.
> But
> as to the madmen that Taim is offing adding to that chaos... how do we
> know that Taim is, in fact, offing the madmen in the BT? He may,
> true.. and he may just be offing one or two that have gone insane in
> front of the other Asha'man, and using the poison as a cover story to
> off the Asha'man that would be loyal to Rand, and not to himself.
> Logain himself hints that he might not be around if he weren't so
> "visible" and if Rand hadn't ordered otherwise. Narishma and Flynn and
> the other loyal Asha'man that we've seen have been kept with Rand
> since these poisonings started, as far as we know. If they weren't,
> perhaps a few of them would have found themselves with a cup of tea
> for bed as well.
I think that's an unfair treatment of Taim. Rand picked people to
surround him that he had known from the beginning, and for that reason
concluded they were loyal. He chose not to surround himself with any of
those Taim picked, or they may have had a chance to demonstrate their
loyalty as well.
further, Narishma was not only selected by Taim, but (I think in Loc)
recommended to Rand as one who would be extremely strong in the power. If
you accept Narishma's loyalty, then Taim must have picked out a "winner"
to give to Rand.
As to the disloyal ones who were selected, Rand picked Dashiva, over
Taim's protests. For the others, Taim selected those to go with the
nobles Rand least trusted on what was apparently a death mission against
the Seanchan. It seems that he is exactly following Rand's objectives,
and perhaps selected the troublemakers he hoped would be killed in the
battle, as Rand hoped the disloyal nobles would be knocked off.
And for Logain, it's probably a matter of pride for Taim. He wants to
go down in the histories as the man who stood at the hand of the Lord
Dragon. Of all in the Black Tower, only he had a name recognized by the
world until the arrival of Logain.
In addition to that, Logain seems to have developed his war abilities
along much different lines. Rather than flows to blow apart heads and
churn up the ground, he did earthquakes and compulsion on AS. Taim,
probably rightly, assumes Logain is trying to usurp his position, and may
well be admired and followed by some of the Black Tower.
Not only that, Taim knows all too well what happened to Rand when AS
were around them. Now a false dragon appears who was not only captured
but gentled by the AS, bearing a tale that they "let" him go and healed
him first. Then surprisingly AS fall in and do what he wants because of
a secret trick he has. In addition to which AS fall on the black tower in
force as soon as he arrives. Small wonder if Taim isn't sure where
Logain's loyalties lie.
Mike
Jeff Haas
lpark...@mindspring.com wrote:
>Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> pondered for a while, then blurted out:
>>
<snip>
>> This is in response to the suggestion that Taim is Demandred. One of
>>the points mentioned which suggests Dashiva is not a Forskaen or otherwise
>>a DF is that he is acting contrary to the DO's instructions.
>>
>> If this is a criteria which can render someone innocent of being
>>Forsaken, then Taim could not be Demandred.
>>
>> Perhaps the only clear instruction of the DO which we have heard
>>directly from the DO, and supported by several of the characters, is the
>>directive to foment chaos in the world.
>> This is told specifically to Demandred, in LoC, to let the Lord of Chaos
>>rule.
<snip Sammeal and Graendal w/ Shaido>
<snip Taim controlling Black Tower>
>
>Hrm.. personally, I wouldn't read too much into either the order "Let
>the Lord of Chaos rule" or into the "fact" that Taim is killing off
>the madmen in the Black Tower. With the first, I'm not saying that the
>Forsaken shouldn't follow the DO's orders. But the orders aren't to
>sow Chaos, they are to Let the Lord of Chaos rule. In other words, to
>let Rand rule. Lord of Chaos is just the name that the DO is using for
>Rand. And Taim, whether he is Demandred or not (I think he is) is
>doing exactly what the DO said... letting Rand order him around,
>something he despises, and letting him run free.
What?! Is this really the consensus of the group: that the 'Lord of Chaos'
is Rand, not the Dark One? Why would that be? Granted, Rand is certainly
shaking things up, but that's nothing compared to what the DO wants to do.
Let's think for a second.[1] The DO is the antithesis of the Creator.
The Creator seems to value order, as He created the world, made the Wheel
of Time and the Pattern it weaves, made saidin and saidar to turn the
Wheel, and made ta'veren to help guide the Pattern to the correct path.
(That last bit is theoretical but, in my opinion, reasonable.) As He did
all of this, He also sealed away the Dark One. Why? Well, maybe it had
something to do with a personal fued, but maybe it's because the Creator
knew what I am about to propose.
Let's assume that the DO is actually the Lord of Chaos, and complete chaos
is his ultimate goal. This seems fairly consistent with his goal of
breaking the Wheel, to destroy the orderly Pattern the Creator set up.
It's also consistent with his practice of subverting members of an
established (i.e. orderly) hierarchy of power and later activating them to
sow chaos within that heirarchy. For example, look at how he's using the
Black Ajah.
Other exapmles:
The "orgainization" of Darkfriends: at first, there seems to be a
hierarchy of power, and there actually is, to some extent. But individual
DFs actively compete with one another for the DO's (or a Chosen's) favor,
and of course DFs don't shy away from a little back-stabbing, literal or
figurative. The Forsaken themselves don't cooperate much, and even when
they do, there's always something each of them holds as a secret, thinking
it will gain him/her an advantage so that he/she may become Nae'blis.
This is about as chaotic an organization as you'll find.
His manipulation of the weather: The long winter and the even longer
summer had to be ways of making people wonder if their governments really
were taking care of them. Basically, he was laying seige to the whole
world, trying to starve them out or force their hand. Only the "Terrible
Twosome" (I don't mean Mat and Olver) in finding the Bowl of the Winds
foiled that plan.
Well anyway, I think I've rambled enough. Flames and further discussion
welcome anytime.
-Jeff
[1] Ow! My head hurts now.
Laura M. Parkinson
What, the Dark One doesn't want any nice organized groups on his side
for TG? That'd make it pretty hard to win the battle... Okay, so maybe
the Forsaken are supposed to sow chaos. That doesn't mean that they
should sow chaos even in the Dark One's own forces, or in those forces
that could become Dark. As to Taim sending the men on to Bashere to
form into an army.. well, he doesn't have much choice, does he? Not if
he wants to keep his position. And it's a fair chance that he's seeded
those ranks with a few of his Darkfriends as well...
>> But
>> as to the madmen that Taim is offing adding to that chaos... how do we
>> know that Taim is, in fact, offing the madmen in the BT? He may,
>> true.. and he may just be offing one or two that have gone insane in
>> front of the other Asha'man, and using the poison as a cover story to
>> off the Asha'man that would be loyal to Rand, and not to himself.
>> Logain himself hints that he might not be around if he weren't so
>> "visible" and if Rand hadn't ordered otherwise. Narishma and Flynn and
>> the other loyal Asha'man that we've seen have been kept with Rand
>> since these poisonings started, as far as we know. If they weren't,
>> perhaps a few of them would have found themselves with a cup of tea
>> for bed as well.
>
> I think that's an unfair treatment of Taim. Rand picked people to
>surround him that he had known from the beginning, and for that reason
>concluded they were loyal. He chose not to surround himself with any of
>those Taim picked, or they may have had a chance to demonstrate their
>loyalty as well.
Demonstrate.. their.. loyalty? Oh, you mean like trying to assassinate
Rand...
> further, Narishma was not only selected by Taim, but (I think in Loc)
>recommended to Rand as one who would be extremely strong in the power. If
>you accept Narishma's loyalty, then Taim must have picked out a "winner"
>to give to Rand.
Are you certain that Taim selected Narishma? I honestly don't remember
that. If he did, it may have simply been a mistake. Taim
underestimating him, for example, thinking that he was simply a "soft
pretty boy" as so many people apparently do. He was also only of the
lowest rank when sent to Rand. Taim apparently wasn't pleased to find
that Rand had raised Narishma a rank, and Taim's chosen (ha ha)
representative certainly had quite the attitude with Narishma.. an
attitude that seems lifted pretty much from Taim.
Anyhow, as I said, I'm still not sure that Narishma was picked out by
Taim to go with Rand. As for Taim's pointing him out in LoC.. that was
in response to an order to spot possible Forsaken hiding in the ranks.
If Taim knew that Narishma wasn't one of "his" guys, why would he have
any trouble possibly throwing him to the wolves, if Rand did suspect
Narishma was a Forsaken in disguise?
> As to the disloyal ones who were selected, Rand picked Dashiva, over
>Taim's protests. For the others, Taim selected those to go with the
>nobles Rand least trusted on what was apparently a death mission against
>the Seanchan. It seems that he is exactly following Rand's objectives,
>and perhaps selected the troublemakers he hoped would be killed in the
>battle, as Rand hoped the disloyal nobles would be knocked off.
As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that Dashiva is
Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as far as Taim
knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to throw a
wrench in his own plans. Thus, the protest. For the others, Rand
gathered all his enemies together... and would need some very loyal
Asha'man with him to help keep him alive. (He also had General Bashere
and his own hand-picked Asha'man with him, remember). If Taim _IS_
good, then sending the most deadly weapons to Rand on a mission where
he needs all the extra support against the nobles that he can get,
without even bothering to TELL Rand of his suspicions... well, that's
just plain dumb. Dumber than crafty Taim would be.
> And for Logain, it's probably a matter of pride for Taim. He wants to
>go down in the histories as the man who stood at the hand of the Lord
>Dragon. Of all in the Black Tower, only he had a name recognized by the
>world until the arrival of Logain.
> In addition to that, Logain seems to have developed his war abilities
>along much different lines. Rather than flows to blow apart heads and
>churn up the ground, he did earthquakes and compulsion on AS. Taim,
>probably rightly, assumes Logain is trying to usurp his position, and may
>well be admired and followed by some of the Black Tower.
So you're arguing that Taim is a good guy, but that he's so easily
driven into a rage or whatever by jealousy that he would gladly kill
his rivals. That dosen't make sense to me. The jealousy issue makes
more sense to me if (as I believe) Taim is Demandred. We know how
Demandred feels about being "number two" next to Lews Therin.. he
wouldn't exactly welcome yet another challenge for his status.
And of course Logain developed his Powers along different lines. He
taught them to himself, as Taim (the real Taim) would have done. Of
course, if Taim had really developed his own powers, I'd expect them
to be more along the lines of earthquakes, lightning, etc.. rather
than complex, rolling rings of fire that are created by a great number
of male channelers, unheard of since the Age of Legends.. but I
digress. At any rate, Taim and Logain WOULD have differently developed
powers.. Taim couldn't expect it otherwise. That wouldn't be a reason
to hate Logain. As for suspicion, if Rand himself is saying that
Logain is on the level, and shouldn't be harmed, you'd think that Taim
would maybe keep an eye on him, but let it slide otherwise. If he were
truly loyal, that is.
> Not only that, Taim knows all too well what happened to Rand when AS
>were around them. Now a false dragon appears who was not only captured
>but gentled by the AS, bearing a tale that they "let" him go and healed
>him first. Then surprisingly AS fall in and do what he wants because of
>a secret trick he has. In addition to which AS fall on the black tower in
>force as soon as he arrives. Small wonder if Taim isn't sure where
>Logain's loyalties lie.
Taim also knows that Rand was a special case. He also knows that
Logain, who may have been accidentally healed by an Aes Sedai, was
first gentled by them, and that he, also, was being held captive. And
secret trick? What secret trick? It's a version of the Wife bond that
the Asha'man created before Logain ever set foot in the Black Tower.
How would that be a secret trick? And Taim has apparently been
expecting Aes Sedai to attack the BT for some time now. At least, he
keeps pestering at Rand to let him take care of the Aes Sedai before
they take care of the Asha'man. yet all of a sudden, he'd blame it on
the appearance of Logain?
I can understand not wanting to believe that Demandred is Taim, even
though I personally think there's overwhelming evidence for it. I
really can't see Taim being, in any sense of the word, a "nice guy"
however, and exactly what he seems. If there were any chance of it,
the attack by Taim's handpicked goons in PoD put nails in that coffin.
Laura M. Parkinson
out:
(snipping muchly.. I"ve already done a couple overly long responses
today)
>What?! Is this really the consensus of the group: that the 'Lord of Chaos'
>is Rand, not the Dark One? Why would that be? Granted, Rand is certainly
>shaking things up, but that's nothing compared to what the DO wants to do.
Yes, I believe that's the consensus of the group. Although others will
have to back me up, since I can't really speak for the group.
>Let's assume that the DO is actually the Lord of Chaos, and complete chaos
>is his ultimate goal. This seems fairly consistent with his goal of
>breaking the Wheel, to destroy the orderly Pattern the Creator set up.
>It's also consistent with his practice of subverting members of an
>established (i.e. orderly) hierarchy of power and later activating them to
>sow chaos within that heirarchy. For example, look at how he's using the
>Black Ajah.
(snips)
The main thing is.. why would the Dark One then be declaring to his
minions "Okay, um.. guys, let me rule" ? From all of their actions,
the Forsaken seem to be under orders to let Rand have the freedom to
rule (even if they're not always the best in following these orders).
We also see Rand basically sowing chaos wherever he goes, even when he
doesn't mean to do this.
Rena
Laura M. Parkinson wrote in message
<36a818c6...@news.mindspring.com>...
>Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> pondered for a while, then blurted
out:
>
>>
>>> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Rebel Yell wrote:
>>>
>>> > Webby wrote:
>>> >
[snip]
>>
>> Perhaps the only clear instruction of the DO which we have heard
>>directly from the DO, and supported by several of the characters, is
the
>>directive to foment chaos in the world.
>> This is told specifically to Demandred, in LoC, to let the Lord of
Chaos
>>rule, Sammael claims to be following this directive when he gives
the
>>"travelling boxes" to the Shaido, and Graendal agrees in ACoS, and
the
>>Watcher who uses the True Power, clearly favoured by the DO, agrees
that
>>this directive to spread chaos, in small increments as well as large
is in
>>the DO's plan.
>>
>> However, in PoD, Taim is first shown to be tightly controlling
the
>>Black Tower with respect to madness. If sending bunches of Aiel
around is
>>spreading chaos, how much more effective would it be to let fifty
Fedwin
>>Morr's Travel around the world?
>
>Hrm.. personally, I wouldn't read too much into either the order "Let
>the Lord of Chaos rule" or into the "fact" that Taim is killing off
>the madmen in the Black Tower. With the first, I'm not saying that
the
>Forsaken shouldn't follow the DO's orders. But the orders aren't to
>sow Chaos, they are to Let the Lord of Chaos rule. In other words, to
Actually, the orders probably are to sow chaos. In LOC, 'Threads
Woven
of Shadow' Graendal muses: 'She would be the most obedient of the
Great Lord's servants. She would sow chaos till the harvest made
Demandred's lungs explode." Which, IMHO, suggests this is also how
Demandred communicated the order to her.
[snip]
Rena
Jeff Haas wrote in message ...[snip]
>
>What?! Is this really the consensus of the group: that the 'Lord of
Chaos'
>is Rand, not the Dark One? Why would that be? Granted, Rand is
certainly
>shaking things up, but that's nothing compared to what the DO wants
to do.
>
Well, for me it's that Demandred questions it. In LOC, after he
watchs
Elayne in the Grand Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod we get: '"Let the Lord of
Chaos
rule," he told the thrones -- though he still wished he knew why it
had to
be so...' I don't think he would wonder why it had to be the Dark
One.
[snip]
Jeff Haas
In article <36a8ea65$0$16...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Rena" <re...@best.com> wrote:
>Jeff Haas wrote in message ...
>
>>What?! Is this really the consensus of the group: that the
>>'Lord ofChaos' is Rand, not the Dark One? Why would that be?
>>Granted, Rand is certainly shaking things up, but that's
>>nothing compared to what the DO wants to do.
>
>Well, for me it's that Demandred questions it. In LOC, after he
>watchs Elayne in the Grand Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod we get: '"Let
>the Lord of Chaos rule," he told the thrones -- though he still
>wished he knew why it had to be so...' I don't think he would
>wonder why it had to be the Dark One.
I'm afraid I don't remember this scene, so a citation would be helpful.
On a more general scale: I'm not saying I won't be convinced otherwise if
presented with evidence that contradicts my claims, but I have a Looney
Theory[1] that the DO is actually the LoC. Keep the flames, er, I mean
*responses* coming.
Random though: Is it possible to let the Lord of Chaos _rule_? Come to
think of it, 'Lord of Chaos' is really an oxymoron, isn't it?
-Jeff
[1] Sorry to violate anyone's trademark here. To whom do I send the
royalty check?
Rena
Jeff Haas wrote in message ...
>[reformatted--check your newsreader's settings re: line breaks]
>
>In article <36a8ea65$0$16...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, "Rena"
<re...@best.com> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Haas wrote in message ...
>>
>>>What?! Is this really the consensus of the group: that the
>>>'Lord ofChaos' is Rand, not the Dark One? Why would that be?
>>>Granted, Rand is certainly shaking things up, but that's
>>>nothing compared to what the DO wants to do.
>>
>>Well, for me it's that Demandred questions it. In LOC, after he
>>watchs Elayne in the Grand Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod we get: '"Let
>>the Lord of Chaos rule," he told the thrones -- though he still
>>wished he knew why it had to be so...' I don't think he would
>>wonder why it had to be the Dark One.
>
>I'm afraid I don't remember this scene, so a citation would be
helpful.
>
[snip]
The scene is in LOC, 'A Matter of Thought' the very last
paragraph in the chapter.
My apologies on the line lengths. I need to do them
manually and got sloppy.
Jim Coleman
[snip context]
> I need to do them
> manually and got sloppy.
Hm. Interesting.
--
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
Fay Wouk
> Rand does hear Lews voice, and Rand really is both Rand and Lews which is
> proven by Perrins nose: Rands smell changes too fast for one man, and thats
> because he is _TWO_ men!
> Dashivas smell changes as fast, and he is talking to himself.
Can you give the reference for that? I remembered it as Taim that Perrin
smells changing, but I can't find the scene.
Fay
Steven M. Ginter
f.w...@auckland.ac.nz says...
Aw, shite... For Rand: aCoS, "The Butcher's Yard," pg 83 (USHB):
"Razor-sharp rage abruptly vanished in curiosity and caution, the one
thin and probing, the other foglike; then slashing, murderous fury
consumed both. Rand shook his head just slightly, and his smell
became stony determination. Nobody's scent changed that fast.
Nobody's."
And for Dashiva: aCoS, "Into Cairhien," pg 108 (USHB): "Perrin rubbed
his nose. The smell...skittered, dodging wildly through fear and hate
and anger and a dozen more emotions almost too quickly to make out.
He no longer doubted the man was mad, however good a face the fellow
put on."
HTH!
--
Steve G.
Gaidin to Emilie Sedai
http://www.verdantfuture.com
ICQ: 28896494
"'Til money is gone, 'til assets are gone, into the audit with teeth
bared, to spit in the IRS' eye on the Last Day."
Mike
> On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
> > Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> brilliantly deduced that:
>
> Anyhow, as I said, I'm still not sure that Narishma was picked out by
> Taim to go with Rand. As for Taim's pointing him out in LoC.. that was
> in response to an order to spot possible Forsaken hiding in the ranks.
> If Taim knew that Narishma wasn't one of "his" guys, why would he have
> any trouble possibly throwing him to the wolves, if Rand did suspect
> Narishma was a Forsaken in disguise?
So he knew Narishma was powerful and loyal to Rand, so he wanted Rand
to have him and that makes Taim evil?
> > As to the disloyal ones who were selected, Rand picked Dashiva, over
> >Taim's protests. For the others, Taim selected those to go with the
> >nobles Rand least trusted on what was apparently a death mission against
> >the Seanchan. It seems that he is exactly following Rand's objectives,
> >and perhaps selected the troublemakers he hoped would be killed in the
> >battle, as Rand hoped the disloyal nobles would be knocked off.
>
> As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that Dashiva is
> Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as far as Taim
> knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to throw a
> wrench in his own plans. Thus, the protest. For the others, Rand
> gathered all his enemies together... and would need some very loyal
> Asha'man with him to help keep him alive. (He also had General Bashere
> and his own hand-picked Asha'man with him, remember). If Taim _IS_
> good, then sending the most deadly weapons to Rand on a mission where
> he needs all the extra support against the nobles that he can get,
> without even bothering to TELL Rand of his suspicions... well, that's
> just plain dumb. Dumber than crafty Taim would be.
Not at all. Taim is trying hard to demonstrate his loyalty, try to
meet Rand's objectives and be alive to be hailed as the hero of Tarmon
Gaidon. This response assumes that Taim is operating under the same
knowledge of Rand's motives as we have, and doesn't recognize that Rand
tells Taim next to nothing, is mistrustful of him and still expects him to
continue demonstrating loyalty.
From Taim's perspective he sees who Rand is gathering to assist on this
mission, and, on the assumption that he knew about the potential traitors,
acted perceptively in recognizing what Rand was trying to do and attmepted
to do the same thing. Nothing overly dumb about that, but crafty in
recognizing Rand's objective.
If anyone is making an error in judgement here it was Rand in his
foolish way of commanding a disloyal army. Had he wanted to kill off this
group he could have sent them out alone, no need to place himself at risk.
>
> > And for Logain, it's probably a matter of pride for Taim. He wants to
> >go down in the histories as the man who stood at the hand of the Lord
> >Dragon. Of all in the Black Tower, only he had a name recognized by the
> >world until the arrival of Logain.
> > In addition to that, Logain seems to have developed his war abilities
> >along much different lines. Rather than flows to blow apart heads and
> >churn up the ground, he did earthquakes and compulsion on AS. Taim,
> >probably rightly, assumes Logain is trying to usurp his position, and may
> >well be admired and followed by some of the Black Tower.
>
> So you're arguing that Taim is a good guy, but that he's so easily
> driven into a rage or whatever by jealousy that he would gladly kill
> his rivals. That dosen't make sense to me. The jealousy issue makes
> more sense to me if (as I believe) Taim is Demandred. We know how
> Demandred feels about being "number two" next to Lews Therin.. he
> wouldn't exactly welcome yet another challenge for his status.
I see this as an excellent point in favour of the fact that Taim could
not be Demandred. Jealousy in this situation is a fairly natural emotion.
Logain rose rapidly through the ranks of what was supposed to be Taim's
personal preserve.
The Demandred level of jealousy is another thing entirely. It is
mentioned frequently through the series how great his hate for Lews Therin
was, and now it has been transferred in full to Al'Thor. Sammael's hate
was purportedly a pale thing next to Demandred.
Yet here Taim is acting second to Rand, in essentially the capacity of
general, the identical role that Demandred had once played, and which
drove him so mad with envy that he pledged his soul to the DO.
Taim chose to wear the symbol of the dragon on his sleeves, he
recruit men who want to pledge themselves to follow the dragon, and
actively assists in creating a legion of the dragon whose coats are
adorned with the symbol of the man who caused Demandred to turn to the
dark.
Simply put, Demandred could not and would not be willing to do it.
His sole reason for turning to the dark was this hatred, it is irrational
that he would put it aside and promulgate the glories of the Dragon for
any reason.
The response is that perhaps to be Nae'blis Demandred would be willing
to put this aside, but it has not been demonstrated that any of the other
Forsaken were willing to put aside their ancient feelings irrespective of
the potential reward. Lanfear came fully into the open when she thought
another woman had taken Lews Therin's bed, Graendal refuses to give up her
use of pets, despite the potential that it could give her away, Semirhage
has turned her tools to the DO's use, but would unlikely give up her
"delights" even at his command, Rahvin would not give up his bevy of
women though it placed him at similar risk.
Even Moggy, after having been retrained by SH would not put aside her
personal dislike of Nynaeve while under the constraints of the
cour'souvra. Would Demandred unrestrained put aside his hatred any more
easily?
>
> And of course Logain developed his Powers along different lines. He
> taught them to himself, as Taim (the real Taim) would have done. Of
> course, if Taim had really developed his own powers, I'd expect them
> to be more along the lines of earthquakes, lightning, etc.. rather
> than complex, rolling rings of fire that are created by a great number
> of male channelers, unheard of since the Age of Legends.. but I
> digress. At any rate, Taim and Logain WOULD have differently developed
> powers.. Taim couldn't expect it otherwise. That wouldn't be a reason
> to hate Logain. As for suspicion, if Rand himself is saying that
> Logain is on the level, and shouldn't be harmed, you'd think that Taim
> would maybe keep an eye on him, but let it slide otherwise. If he were
> truly loyal, that is.
Well, that is exactly what Taim is doing isn't he? Keeping an eye on
him and letting it slide otherwise. It's not like Logain is even hoeing
turnips, he's out and about interracting with Aes Sedai.
As to the development of his own powers, my first point was that Logain
has a different style, and is likely confusing the young'un's that Taim is
trying to teach to act as a coordinated fighting force. Logain may even
be giving difficulties arguing about the effectiveness of Taim's tactics
etc. and that is what bothered Taim.
However, your argument with respect to the rolling ring of earth and
fire is a strong argument that Taim is not Demandred I would think.
Firstly, Taim has acknowledged that he had recruited a few men into his
own army while he was proclaiming himself Dragon. Likely he worked out at
that time how male channelers could coordinate.
For Demandred, there is no time at which he would have worked out
these sorts of flows. Why would he have had to coordinate lots of male
channelers acting on an individual basis? He would never have seen the
need and would not likely conceive of a complex coordination of weaves.
He would simply have grabbed a couple of women, made a link, and done
whatever battle tactics both sides of the source could produce. The use
of saidin and saidar makes this male only sort of coordination
unnecessary in the AoL.
>
> > Not only that, Taim knows all too well what happened to Rand when AS
> >were around them. Now a false dragon appears who was not only captured
> >but gentled by the AS, bearing a tale that they "let" him go and healed
> >him first. Then surprisingly AS fall in and do what he wants because of
> >a secret trick he has. In addition to which AS fall on the black tower in
> >force as soon as he arrives. Small wonder if Taim isn't sure where
> >Logain's loyalties lie.
>
> Taim also knows that Rand was a special case. He also knows that
> Logain, who may have been accidentally healed by an Aes Sedai, was
> first gentled by them, and that he, also, was being held captive. And
> secret trick? What secret trick? It's a version of the Wife bond that
> the Asha'man created before Logain ever set foot in the Black Tower.
> How would that be a secret trick?
Well, to my knowledge that "bond" was not used to make their wives do
whatever they wanted, or it likely would have been even more popular
amongst the Black Tower and there would be men from across the world
coming to learn how to channel.
The Wife Bond was a two way thing, and compulsion was never mentioned.
That's Logain's "special" innovation. From Taim's perspective it must
look suspicious that Logain knows a trick that makes Aes Sedai act as he
tells them to.
> And Taim has apparently been
> expecting Aes Sedai to attack the BT for some time now. At least, he
> keeps pestering at Rand to let him take care of the Aes Sedai before
> they take care of the Asha'man. yet all of a sudden, he'd blame it on
> the appearance of Logain?
True enough. But from Taim's perspective it is a convenient
coincidence in time. I agree that Logain is not a threat to Taim, I just
think that the fact that Logain feels Taim doesn't trust him is more
unreasonable for Logain than it is for Taim.
>
> I can understand not wanting to believe that Demandred is Taim, even
> though I personally think there's overwhelming evidence for it. I
> really can't see Taim being, in any sense of the word, a "nice guy"
> however, and exactly what he seems. If there were any chance of it,
> the attack by Taim's handpicked goons in PoD put nails in that coffin.
>
I think that was an attack by Dashiva's hand picked goons. Dashiva
could have zoomed in with any random male channelers. He went to the
DF's that were the most powerful, and possibly those already distrusted
by Taim.
As to "overwhelming evidence" there was a fair amount of evidence that
Moirane was at the DFS in TGH and nothing came of it. I think Taim is a
red herring. He was probably supposed to throw suspicion off the scent of
Dashiva and misdirect attention from Demandred's location. It seemed like
one of the relatively strong arguments put forth against Dashiva being
Osan'gar was that the DO wouldn't need two Forsaken in the Black Tower.
There were good arguments for why this might be so as well, but now that
Dashiva has turned, it is a good sign in favour of Taim being who and what
he says.
As to a nice guy, Rand doesn't really need a nice guy. He didn't
really want a nice guy. He wanted a capable general who would train men
into weapons. Taim has done that very effectively, as evidenced by the
success in Altara.
Mike
Govind Salinas
> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
> > > Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> brilliantly deduced that:
> >
[snip]
> From Taim's perspective he sees who Rand is gathering to assist on this
> mission, and, on the assumption that he knew about the potential traitors,
> acted perceptively in recognizing what Rand was trying to do and attmepted
> to do the same thing. Nothing overly dumb about that, but crafty in
> recognizing Rand's objective.
> If anyone is making an error in judgement here it was Rand in his
> foolish way of commanding a disloyal army. Had he wanted to kill off this
> group he could have sent them out alone, no need to place himself at risk.
I think that Rand didn't do that because he was afraid of them running off
and plotting against him. The last thing he needs is another group of
nobles in the woods trying to kill him.
[snip]
>
> > So you're arguing that Taim is a good guy, but that he's so easily
> > driven into a rage or whatever by jealousy that he would gladly kill
> > his rivals. That dosen't make sense to me. The jealousy issue makes
> > more sense to me if (as I believe) Taim is Demandred. We know how
> > Demandred feels about being "number two" next to Lews Therin.. he
> > wouldn't exactly welcome yet another challenge for his status.
>
> I see this as an excellent point in favour of the fact that Taim could
> not be Demandred. Jealousy in this situation is a fairly natural emotion.
> Logain rose rapidly through the ranks of what was supposed to be Taim's
> personal preserve.
>
> The Demandred level of jealousy is another thing entirely. It is
> mentioned frequently through the series how great his hate for Lews Therin
> was, and now it has been transferred in full to Al'Thor. Sammael's hate
> was purportedly a pale thing next to Demandred.
> Yet here Taim is acting second to Rand, in essentially the capacity of
> general, the identical role that Demandred had once played, and which
> drove him so mad with envy that he pledged his soul to the DO.
Yes. And wouldn't it be grand to get the better of him this time arround?
> Taim chose to wear the symbol of the dragon on his sleeves, he
Those dragons are much like the dragons on Rand's arms aren't they. The
only other person we have seen wearing the dragons like that was
Couldain. My point bieng that it could just as easily be a sign that Taim
(be he demandred or not) may be out to usurp Rand's position rather than
a sign that he is bieng faithful. Plus, if Taim == dem then we must
assume he will try and seem subservient to Rand in at least some ways.
> recruit
men who want to pledge themselves to follow the dragon,
and > actively assists in creating a legion of the dragon whose coats are
> adorned with the symbol of the man who caused Demandred to turn to the
> dark.
> Simply put, Demandred could not and would not be willing to do it.
> His sole reason for turning to the dark was this hatred, it is irrational
> that he would put it aside and promulgate the glories of the Dragon for
> any reason.
And is it so easy to refuse the Great Lord of the Dark? Remember, Dem
still thinks he will be Nae'blis.
>
> The response is that perhaps to be Nae'blis Demandred would be willing
> to put this aside, but it has not been demonstrated that any of the other
> Forsaken were willing to put aside their ancient feelings irrespective of
> the potential reward. Lanfear came fully into the open when she thought
> another woman had taken Lews Therin's bed, Graendal refuses to give up her
> use of pets, despite the potential that it could give her away, Semirhage
> has turned her tools to the DO's use, but would unlikely give up her
> "delights" even at his command, Rahvin would not give up his bevy of
> women though it placed him at similar risk.
> Even Moggy, after having been retrained by SH would not put aside her
> personal dislike of Nynaeve while under the constraints of the
> cour'souvra. Would Demandred unrestrained put aside his hatred any more
> easily?
>
But the point is that none of the others have been ofered the position of
Nae'blis nor have they been ordered to any of those things by the DO. And
as for Moghedien, she is, afer all, an idiot who has not done anything
right this entire series.
> However, your argument with respect to the rolling ring of earth and
> fire is a strong argument that Taim is not Demandred I would think.
> Firstly, Taim has acknowledged that he had recruited a few men into his
> own army while he was proclaiming himself Dragon. Likely he worked out at
> that time how male channelers could coordinate.
Um, no. We have only heard of one instance where Taim tried to teach
someone (admittedly this is from Taim) to channel and Taim ended up having
to kill him. And I would think that you would have to have some
experiance with using groups of male channelers instead of mabey just one
other one. I don't think Taim has had enough time to develop and train
people to use his weaves.
> For Demandred, there is no time at which he would have worked out
> these sorts of flows. Why would he have had to coordinate lots of male
> channelers acting on an individual basis? He would never have seen the
> need and would not likely conceive of a complex coordination of weaves.
> He would simply have grabbed a couple of women, made a link, and done
> whatever battle tactics both sides of the source could produce. The use
> of saidin and saidar makes this male only sort of coordination
> unnecessary in the AoL.
First of all there were probably such exercises in whatever schools tought
channeling in the AoL siply because men and women don't always see eye to
eye and don't always work well (if at all ) with each other. The stike at
Shahol Guhl was proof of that.
[snip]
***** ***** Govind Gopal ***** Sikhandar Salinas ***** *****
The chance of a piece of bread falling with the buttered side down is
directly proportional to the cost of the carpet.
-Corilary of Murphy's LAw
***** Bearer of Knowladge. ***** Protector. ***** Defender of Mankind. *****
Matt Fletcher
>
> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
> > Anyhow, as I said, I'm still not sure that Narishma was picked out by
> > Taim to go with Rand. As for Taim's pointing him out in LoC.. that was
> > in response to an order to spot possible Forsaken hiding in the ranks.
> > If Taim knew that Narishma wasn't one of "his" guys, why would he have
> > any trouble possibly throwing him to the wolves, if Rand did suspect
> > Narishma was a Forsaken in disguise?
>
> So he knew Narishma was powerful and loyal to Rand, so he wanted Rand
> to have him and that makes Taim evil?
Uhm... Perhaps you should reread what she wrote? To summarize in your
format: He knew Narishma was powerful and loyal to Rand (or just that
he was *good* in some sense), so he wanted Rand to think Narishma was a
Forsaken in disguise and maybe kill him. That makes Taim evil.
Otoh, if you are saying that you interpret the scene differently (i.e.
that Taim wasn't responding to a request to point out someone who might
be a Forsaken), you might want to _say_ that and mention a few reasons
why.
> The Demandred level of jealousy is another thing entirely. It is
> mentioned frequently through the series how great his hate for Lews Therin
[snip]
Note the original word: jealousy. Demandred is jealous of LTT. This
implies (as does the stuff from the guide) that he not only wants to
beat LTT, but he wants to prove that he is better than LTT. A covert
action, where he actually has a chance to contrast himself with
LTT/Rand, exactly fits the bill for this kind of emotion.
Demandred spent years playing second fiddle to LTT. It was only when he
became absolutely convinced that he would never get the recognition he
thought he deserved that he went to the DO. Now, if he's Taim, he has a
whole new chance to prove that he's better than LTT. I don't think he
needs to be restrained at all. To him, this looks like his chance to
prove to everyone that HE is the greater.
The examples of the other Forsaken putting personal emotions ahead of
the common cause (which I snipped for brevity) do suggest the
possibility that there may be some future conflict. This could be the
plot device used to reveal that Taim is really Demandred.
Fletch
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
Mike schrieb:
> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
> > > Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> brilliantly deduced that:
> >
> > Anyhow, as I said, I'm still not sure that Narishma was picked out by
> > Taim to go with Rand. As for Taim's pointing him out in LoC.. that was
> > in response to an order to spot possible Forsaken hiding in the ranks.
> > If Taim knew that Narishma wasn't one of "his" guys, why would he have
> > any trouble possibly throwing him to the wolves, if Rand did suspect
> > Narishma was a Forsaken in disguise?
>
> So he knew Narishma was powerful and loyal to Rand, so he wanted Rand
> to have him and that makes Taim evil?
But the truly interesting point is that Taim never mentions to Rand Dashiva,
who apparently reaches almost Rand's strength in 1.5 months _not being a
sparker_. As of POD Dashiva is significantly stronger than Narishma, not to
mention his apparent theoretical insights concerning the OP. I do, of course,
believe that he is Osan'gar
The fact that Taim never mentions him seems to point towards Taim=DF.
<snip>
> > As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that Dashiva is
> > Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as far as Taim
> > knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to throw a
> > wrench in his own plans
Impossible, see above. Even Rand didn't grow in OP strength that quickly.
Taim has to suspect something about Dashiva.
<sa'snip>
> However, your argument with respect to the rolling ring of earth and
> fire is a strong argument that Taim is not Demandred I would think.
> Firstly, Taim has acknowledged that he had recruited a few men into his
> own army while he was proclaiming himself Dragon. Likely he worked out at
> that time how male channelers could coordinate.
No!No! Never did Taim aknowledge anything of the sort! He told Rand that he
had "accidentaly" found 5-6 potential channelers over the years, only one of whom
dared to actually learn and had to be killed after 2 years. All of this was long
before he proclaimed himself.
The main problem with this information is that given the channeler
demographics (2-3% of total populace) Taim would have to test 200-300 men to find
his 5-6 . Also he would need at least another male wilder and a few cooperative
"normals" to develop his test in the first place. IMO both these conditions make
it rather unlikely that Taim speaks the truth in this case.
<snip>
> For Demandred, there is no time at which he would have worked out
> these sorts of flows. Why would he have had to coordinate lots of male
> channelers acting on an individual basis? He would never have seen the
> need and would not likely conceive of a complex coordination of weaves.
??? Why wouldn't he? >110 years of his active career aren't enough time? What
if had an excess of male channelers? And fully trained and educated Demandred
would be much more capable of conceiving complex weaves than self-taught Taim.
> He would simply have grabbed a couple of women, made a link, and done
> whatever battle tactics both sides of the source could produce. The use
> of saidin and saidar makes this male only sort of coordination
> unnecessary in the AoL.
Well, LTT was able to come up with such male only sort of coordination in
order to Seal the Bore. And Demandred is almost as good as LTT...
>
> I think that was an attack by Dashiva's hand picked goons. Dashiva
> could have zoomed in with any random male channelers. He went to the
> DF's that were the most powerful, and possibly those already distrusted
> by Taim.
Nope, those 4 are Taim's goons as he is rather desperate to include them in
Rand's bodyguard in ACOS. And we also see 3 of them in positions of authority in
POD.
<snip>
Laura M. Parkinson
>
>> On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>>
>> Anyhow, as I said, I'm still not sure that Narishma was picked out by
>> Taim to go with Rand. As for Taim's pointing him out in LoC.. that was
>> in response to an order to spot possible Forsaken hiding in the ranks.
>> If Taim knew that Narishma wasn't one of "his" guys, why would he have
>> any trouble possibly throwing him to the wolves, if Rand did suspect
>> Narishma was a Forsaken in disguise?
>
> So he knew Narishma was powerful and loyal to Rand, so he wanted Rand
>to have him and that makes Taim evil?
Ugh, not sure how well I'll make my points right now, since I'm more
than half out of it, but here goes...
Er.. to clarify my above statement, I don't remember Taim picking
Narishma out to go with Rand. I DO remember Taim pointing out that
Narishma (or someone.. it may have been Dashiva) was learning much
quicker and seemed to be more powerful than Average Joe Asha'man. This
was in response to Rand's request that Taim point out anyone learning
too quickly, in case they may be a Forsaken trying to disguise
himself.
(snip Dashiva)
>>Rand
>> gathered all his enemies together... and would need some very loyal
>> Asha'man with him to help keep him alive. (He also had General Bashere
>> and his own hand-picked Asha'man with him, remember). If Taim _IS_
>> good, then sending the most deadly weapons to Rand on a mission where
>> he needs all the extra support against the nobles that he can get,
>> without even bothering to TELL Rand of his suspicions... well, that's
>> just plain dumb. Dumber than crafty Taim would be.
>
> Not at all. Taim is trying hard to demonstrate his loyalty, try to
>meet Rand's objectives and be alive to be hailed as the hero of Tarmon
>Gaidon.
(small snip... this is fun, whee! Maybe I should take cold medicine)
> From Taim's perspective he sees who Rand is gathering to assist on this
>mission, and, on the assumption that he knew about the potential traitors,
>acted perceptively in recognizing what Rand was trying to do and attmepted
>to do the same thing. Nothing overly dumb about that, but crafty in
>recognizing Rand's objective.
Except for the fact that Taim didn't even bother to inform Rand of
this. If he's throwing some more adders into the pot, you'd think he'd
let his "boss" know this rather than assuming that Rand, who has spent
very little time apparently with most of the Asha'man, would have
picked up on this as readily as Taim, who was spending his time living
with and instructing them.
Even if Taim made a mistake in not informing Rand of this earlier,
you'd think he'd have done it afterward ("Oh, I'm sorry, I saw what
you were doing with your armies and threw in these wild cards to be
rid of them, assuming you'd realize what I'd done") to keep his own
name clear.
For that matter, if Taim wanted to get rid of them, why wouldn't he
simply poison them with that tea?
> If anyone is making an error in judgement here it was Rand in his
>foolish way of commanding a disloyal army. Had he wanted to kill off this
>group he could have sent them out alone, no need to place himself at risk.
You won't see any arguments from me that this was a major mistake on
Rand's part. I just don't think the fact that Rand made a mistake
means that Taim is innocent. ;)
<snip Taim is jealous/whatever of Logain which is why he wants him
dead. I think.>
>> So you're arguing that Taim is a good guy, but that he's so easily
>> driven into a rage or whatever by jealousy that he would gladly kill
>> his rivals. That dosen't make sense to me. The jealousy issue makes
>> more sense to me if (as I believe) Taim is Demandred. We know how
>> Demandred feels about being "number two" next to Lews Therin.. he
>> wouldn't exactly welcome yet another challenge for his status.
>
> I see this as an excellent point in favour of the fact that Taim could
>not be Demandred. Jealousy in this situation is a fairly natural emotion.
>Logain rose rapidly through the ranks of what was supposed to be Taim's
>personal preserve.
Personal preserve? Taim's working for the Dragon Reborn, basically in
a military group. Yes, he may be jealous, even as jack-normal-Taim.
But would he let this get in the way of his job? Well, maybe. The
jealousy in itself doesn't say he is/isn't Demandred. But as to the
rest...
> The Demandred level of jealousy is another thing entirely. It is
>mentioned frequently through the series how great his hate for Lews Therin
>was, and now it has been transferred in full to Al'Thor. Sammael's hate
>was purportedly a pale thing next to Demandred.
> Yet here Taim is acting second to Rand, in essentially the capacity of
>general, the identical role that Demandred had once played, and which
>drove him so mad with envy that he pledged his soul to the DO.
<snip rest of would Demandred put his hatred aside just to work for
the DO?>
The short answer is: Yes, if he wanted to keep his skin intact.
But at any rate... yes, I think a Forsaken would often try to squirm
his way out of something he truly couldn't stand doing. But in this
case, I think Taim is, for the most part, enjoying what he's doing.
Basically, he's getting the "last laugh" at LTT/Rand. He's putting
himself under his rival's nose, "pretending" to be his second, all the
while taking Rand's charges out from under his nose, and making them
his own. Think about it... for most of the Asha'man that we've seen
(other than those that have constantly been with Rand or his allies)
is Rand truly in charge, or is Taim? They call Taim M'heal(sp?). Many
of them barely seem to hide their contempt around Rand. Taim says
jump, they jump. They take Rand's orders, but with an attitude of just
waiting to see what Taim has to say about it.
For the most part, Taim isn't around Rand, forcing himself to really
act the second-in-command. When he's not around Rand, I imagine it's
pretty easy for Taim to convince himself that he's really in charge of
the situation, and for now he may for the most part be right. And when
Taim IS around Rand, and has to toe the line, it's easy to see that he
completely resents it. As would Demandred. For instance, when Rand
first splits the Asha'man into ranks, and pins the first Sword and
Dragon onto Taim's collar, Rand believe that Taim will be pleased, and
proud, and maybe smug with his given authority over the others. Yet
instead, Taim is resentful, enough so that even Rand notices it right
away. Taim always tries to argue with Rand's orders, or work his way
around them. So in short, yes, I think that Taim is Demandred, and
that he's just where he wants to be.. and that the bad parts of his
disguise are worth it, to him, because he imagines himself soon to be
rising up and taking complete control, and crushing LTT under his
heel.
> Well, that is exactly what Taim is doing isn't he? Keeping an eye on
>him and letting it slide otherwise. It's not like Logain is even hoeing
>turnips, he's out and about interracting with Aes Sedai.
But is this what Taim wants? Would Logain even be alive if there were
no way for his death to get back to Rand? As it is, I still fully
expect an attempt or two on Logain's life sometime soon down the line.
> As to the development of his own powers, my first point was that Logain
>has a different style, and is likely confusing the young'un's that Taim is
>trying to teach to act as a coordinated fighting force. Logain may even
>be giving difficulties arguing about the effectiveness of Taim's tactics
>etc. and that is what bothered Taim.
Possibly. But if Taim truly were from this age, and doing what he
claims to be doing (acting loyally for Rand) wouldn't he try to learn
from Logain in return? Even the Aes Sedai are grudgingly learning from
Elayne and Nynaeve, even when they were still novices. The true "I
know everything that needs to be known" attitude seems to come from
the Forsaken, from the AoL (and, granted, some Aes Sedai), not from
wilders who had to struggle for their own control of the One Power
themselves.
> However, your argument with respect to the rolling ring of earth and
>fire is a strong argument that Taim is not Demandred I would think.
> Firstly, Taim has acknowledged that he had recruited a few men into his
>own army while he was proclaiming himself Dragon. Likely he worked out at
>that time how male channelers could coordinate.
I don't remember this.. anyhow, there's a vast difference from "a few
men" and an army of Asha'man. Regardless, even the idea of the rolling
ring of earth and fire seems like something more likely for a Forsaken
to perform, rather than a wilder, who would probably tend to do things
like straight fireballs, or earthquakes, or more "mundane" effects.
Granted, I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Taim to
develop something like this... just that it seems odd.
> For Demandred, there is no time at which he would have worked out
>these sorts of flows. Why would he have had to coordinate lots of male
>channelers acting on an individual basis? He would never have seen the
>need and would not likely conceive of a complex coordination of weaves.
>He would simply have grabbed a couple of women, made a link, and done
>whatever battle tactics both sides of the source could produce. The use
>of saidin and saidar makes this male only sort of coordination
>unnecessary in the AoL.
Grab a couple of women? IIRC the number of men can never exceed the
number of women in the link. So if someone wanted a simple effect that
10 men would be working to do, then they'd need 11 women just to
accomplish it, linked. While linking would make most things simpler in
coordination, if 10 men happened to be working together on something,
I think it would just be easier to learn to coordinate, rather than to
have to find 11 women each time they wanted to link. Besides, women
usually aren't as strong with earth and fire as men. Plus, I wonder
how many Women Dreadlords there were... most of the female Forsaken
don't seem to have taken any active battle positions, and I wonder if
this is true further down the line. In Randland, the only army that
seems to have any number of women in it is that of the Aiel (Rand's
and the Shaido). Women, in general, don't seem to take part in battle.
(With the exception of the Maidens, Faile's bunch who are looked on as
just plain odd anyhow, and "fire-brained Saldeans" whose husbands die
in battle.) So if there didn't tend to be as many female channelers
active in the battles, it would make sense for the males to coordinate
attacks like this, without the benefit of linking.
<snip.. talking about the Asha'man bond>
> Well, to my knowledge that "bond" was not used to make their wives do
>whatever they wanted, or it likely would have been even more popular
>amongst the Black Tower and there would be men from across the world
>coming to learn how to channel.
Read the PoD Glossary.. it refers to the wife-bond, and notes that a
variant of it is now being used to bond Aes Sedai.
> The Wife Bond was a two way thing, and compulsion was never mentioned.
>That's Logain's "special" innovation. From Taim's perspective it must
>look suspicious that Logain knows a trick that makes Aes Sedai act as he
>tells them to.
From my impression, Logain's not the one that did this innovation. I
could be wrong, but it's my impression.
>> I can understand not wanting to believe that Demandred is Taim, even
>> though I personally think there's overwhelming evidence for it. I
>> really can't see Taim being, in any sense of the word, a "nice guy"
>> however, and exactly what he seems. If there were any chance of it,
>> the attack by Taim's handpicked goons in PoD put nails in that coffin.
>>
> I think that was an attack by Dashiva's hand picked goons. Dashiva
>could have zoomed in with any random male channelers. He went to the
>DF's that were the most powerful, and possibly those already distrusted
>by Taim.
If Taim were noticing enough to pick out the other DFs, why would
Dashiva be the only one he missed? How would Dashiva know just who to
pick, who Taim distrusted? Again, if Taim distrusted those other
Asha'man so much, why didn't he get rid of them.. he seems very ready
to do it in other cases. And why, when he was reporting to Rand after
the attack, did he appear so smug? If he were really loyal, you'd
think he'd be kicking himself for not warning his "boss."
> As to "overwhelming evidence" there was a fair amount of evidence that
>Moirane was at the DFS in TGH and nothing came of it. I think Taim is a
>red herring. He was probably supposed to throw suspicion off the scent of
>Dashiva and misdirect attention from Demandred's location. It seemed like
>one of the relatively strong arguments put forth against Dashiva being
>Osan'gar was that the DO wouldn't need two Forsaken in the Black Tower.
>There were good arguments for why this might be so as well, but now that
>Dashiva has turned, it is a good sign in favour of Taim being who and what
>he says.
Why wouldn't the DO want two Forsaken in the Black Tower? It's a
pretty good system of checks and balances, and an even better way to
manipulate such a rich resource for the Dark One. The DO (or Moridin)
can also more easily check up on Taim with an unknown spy in the Black
Tower.
As for Taim being a red herring, I think there's just plain TOO much
evidence for this. If it's all a red herring, I'll be very very
disappointed. Hell, RJ would be putting more development and care into
a distraction than into some major plot elements and foreshadowings.
It could happen, but I doubt it. Besides, the "red herrings" earlier
were just coincidences between happenings, characteristics, etc. I
think most of the evidence against Taim is much stronger than this.
> As to a nice guy, Rand doesn't really need a nice guy. He didn't
>really want a nice guy. He wanted a capable general who would train men
>into weapons. Taim has done that very effectively, as evidenced by the
>success in Altara.
Taim's definitely not a nice guy. I also don't think that there's any
way that he walks in the light, period, even in the small chance that
he's NOT Demandred.
Laura M. Parkinson
>> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>> > As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that Dashiva is
>> > Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as far as Taim
>> > knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to throw a
>> > wrench in his own plans
>
> Impossible, see above. Even Rand didn't grow in OP strength that quickly.
>Taim has to suspect something about Dashiva.
Er... didn't think of that before. Alright.. I think perhaps Dashiva
did pass himself off as a "Darkfriend" to Taim, much as Halima has
done to her "former boss" Aes Sedai in the Little Tower. I still think
that Taim was genuinely surprised when Dashiva took it upon himself to
command the strike force against RAnd, and that Taimandred has no idea
of Dashiva's true identity. Of course, then I have to wonder why Taim
was so put out when Rand hand-picked Dashiva anyhow..? Hrm. Is it
possible that Dashiva only seemed to "develop" his strengh when with
Rand, and thus Taim wouldn't have pointed him out to Rand? Or perhaps
Taim did point Dashiva out at another time? I really need to do a
reread soon.. *grr*
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
Laura M. Parkinson schrieb:
> a900...@unet.univie.ac.at pondered for a while, then blurted out:
>
> >> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
> >> > As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that Dashiva is
> >> > Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as far as Taim
> >> > knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to throw a
> >> > wrench in his own plans
> >
> > Impossible, see above. Even Rand didn't grow in OP strength that quickly.
> >Taim has to suspect something about Dashiva.
>
> Er... didn't think of that before. Alright.. I think perhaps Dashiva
> did pass himself off as a "Darkfriend" to Taim, much as Halima has
> done to her "former boss" Aes Sedai in the Little Tower. I still think
> that Taim was genuinely surprised when Dashiva took it upon himself to
> command the strike force against RAnd, and that Taimandred has no idea
> of Dashiva's true identity. Of course, then I have to wonder why Taim
> was so put out when Rand hand-picked Dashiva anyhow..? Hrm. Is it
> possible that Dashiva only seemed to "develop" his strengh when with
> Rand, and thus Taim wouldn't have pointed him out to Rand? Or perhaps
> Taim did point Dashiva out at another time? I really need to do a
> reread soon.. *grr*
No, and that's the point. Taim points out a comparatively weak Narishma to
Rand as the one who learns/gains the OP strength very quickly. But he never
mentions a much more strong/skilled Dashiva. Also, Taim seems to be at least
partly aware of Dashiva's abilities, because he has made him A'shaman alongside
his cronies, while Narishma was only a Soldier.
The fact that Taim was unhappy when Rand chose Dashiva as one of his
bodyguards and his fury about Dashiva's part in the attempt on Rand indicate IMO
that Dashiva never was wholly under Taim's control.
Mike Jason
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
>
> No, and that's the point. Taim points out a comparatively weak Narishma to
> Rand as the one who learns/gains the OP strength very quickly. But he never
> mentions a much more strong/skilled Dashiva. Also, Taim seems to be at least
> partly aware of Dashiva's abilities, because he has made him A'shaman alongside
> his cronies, while Narishma was only a Soldier.
Taim points to Narishma as one who is learning quickly, to Dashiva (by
signifying him Asha'man) as one who is already strong and skilled, but
probably progressing slowly. Presumably the potential for strength is
seen in the progression and growth. If Dashiva is Osan'gar, as seems to
be acknowledged, and in turn Aginor, then he would know what sort of
progression would signify great strength and be cautious not to reveal it,
but to start at one level and more or less stay there.
In such a case, Dashiva early on is strong comparatively, but will
have nowhere to grow from there.
Mike
Mike Jason
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
> For that matter, if Taim wanted to get rid of them, why wouldn't he
> simply poison them with that tea?
>
reason as Rand didn't want to hang the nobles. There was no proof, just
suspicion.
> But at any rate... yes, I think a Forsaken would often try to squirm
> his way out of something he truly couldn't stand doing. But in this
> case, I think Taim is, for the most part, enjoying what he's doing.
> Basically, he's getting the "last laugh" at LTT/Rand. He's putting
> himself under his rival's nose, "pretending" to be his second, all the
> while taking Rand's charges out from under his nose, and making them
> his own.
>
> For the most part, Taim isn't around Rand, forcing himself to really
> act the second-in-command. When he's not around Rand, I imagine it's
> pretty easy for Taim to convince himself that he's really in charge of
> the situation, and for now he may for the most part be right. And when
> Taim IS around Rand, and has to toe the line, it's easy to see that he
> completely resents it. As would Demandred.
> Taim always tries to argue with Rand's orders, or work his way
> around them. So in short, yes, I think that Taim is Demandred, and
> that he's just where he wants to be.. and that the bad parts of his
> disguise are worth it, to him, because he imagines himself soon to be
> rising up and taking complete control, and crushing LTT under his
> heel.
I don't think this is what Demandred would want. I agree that
Demandred would want to demonstrate himself the better man, and top Lews
Therin. Doing a stab in the back from the shadows just wouldn't cut it.
He was in essentially the same role of General in the AoL, and likely had
his own group of followers then as well. If rebelling and taking
followers with him wasn't enough to satisfy his envy then, it seems
unlikely he'd take the same route again.
Rather, he would be more interested in demonstrating that more people
could be swayed to his cause than to the Dragon's, that his army is
bigger, better and more loyal, and that he can win in a face
to face confrontation. In short, much the same as the feelings Sammael
had. Or Be'lal. The other two generals of the Dragon.
>
> But is this what Taim wants? Would Logain even be alive if there were
> no way for his death to get back to Rand? As it is, I still fully
> expect an attempt or two on Logain's life sometime soon down the line.
Well, so do I, but even if attributable to Taim I don't think I'll
fault him.
> Possibly. But if Taim truly were from this age, and doing what he
> claims to be doing (acting loyally for Rand) wouldn't he try to learn
> from Logain in return?
I agree that the forsaken tend to have the know-it all attitude, but I
wouldn't want to underestimate the arrogance of Taim. I have no doubt he
feels his own ideas are far superior than anyone else could come up with.
>
> I don't remember this.. anyhow, there's a vast difference from "a few
> men" and an army of Asha'man. Regardless, even the idea of the rolling
> ring of earth and fire seems like something more likely for a Forsaken
> to perform, rather than a wilder, who would probably tend to do things
> like straight fireballs, or earthquakes, or more "mundane" effects.
> Granted, I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Taim to
> develop something like this... just that it seems odd.
True. It demonstrates the sort of mind that would have to think up
his own tricks, develop compulsion and a test on his own. It makes Taim a
very clever person and one continually developing his ideas.
> Grab a couple of women? IIRC the number of men can never exceed the
> number of women in the link. So if someone wanted a simple effect that
> 10 men would be working to do, then they'd need 11 women just to
> accomplish it, linked. While linking would make most things simpler in
> coordination, if 10 men happened to be working together on something,
> I think it would just be easier to learn to coordinate, rather than to
> have to find 11 women each time they wanted to link. Besides, women
> usually aren't as strong with earth and fire as men. Plus, I wonder
> how many Women Dreadlords there were... most of the female Forsaken
> don't seem to have taken any active battle positions, and I wonder if
> this is true further down the line. In Randland, the only army that
> seems to have any number of women in it is that of the Aiel (Rand's
> and the Shaido). Women, in general, don't seem to take part in battle.
> (With the exception of the Maidens, Faile's bunch who are looked on as
> just plain odd anyhow, and "fire-brained Saldeans" whose husbands die
> in battle.) So if there didn't tend to be as many female channelers
> active in the battles, it would make sense for the males to coordinate
> attacks like this, without the benefit of linking.
That is an interesting point.
Certain things did seem divided along gender lines in the AoL, as only
the male Aiel were singing, and there is no evidence that any of the
female Forsaken were blademasters.
Nevertheless, Graendal is commanding one of the world's great captains
in Arad Doman, and Semirhage suggests that she helped develop Trollocs.
Perhaps they did not take part in battle, but given the effectiveness of a
woman channelling unseen against a field of male channelers, I would think
it odd that neither side would take advantage.
Further, the building of the giant ter'angreal was, as I understood it,
intended to be used jointly by men and women in the War of Power. If
that was the case, it would only be an extension or outgrowth of ongoing
circumstances of battle.
The strike by the Hundred Companions was purportedly as a result of
the disagreement along gender lines. Had there been no disagreement,
presumably the strike would have included both men and women.
As to whether Demandred could develop new interlocking male weaves,
perhaps he could, and perhaps the youth were trained to do so. Yet if
both men and women were to be used in battle, and the great works were
done by both, it would make more sense to train people to work together
early.
As you mentioned, the Forsaken feel they know all there is to know, and
while slightly curious about the developments of such things as the warder
bond, they don't appear particularly inclined to learn these new things.
Under those circumstances, it would be quite an adjustment for Demandred
to alter his battle techniques to be male only. I still submit he would
be more likely to include women in links like Logain has done the more
quickly, to battle in a way he was used to.
However, this is premised on the conviction that men and women battled
equally in the AoL.
>
> If Taim were noticing enough to pick out the other DFs, why would
> Dashiva be the only one he missed? How would Dashiva know just who to
> pick, who Taim distrusted? Again, if Taim distrusted those other
> Asha'man so much, why didn't he get rid of them.. he seems very ready
> to do it in other cases. And why, when he was reporting to Rand after
> the attack, did he appear so smug? If he were really loyal, you'd
> think he'd be kicking himself for not warning his "boss."
Well, Taim may have been smug in an "I told you so" sort of way. He
warned Rand against Dashiva and look, Dashiva is a traitor who corrupted
Taim's students.
IF Taim had picked out the other DF's as ones to watch, Dashiva was
taken from him relatively early on to be placed with Rand. At that time,
Taim hadn't known the others long either. Further, he did seem to object
to Rand picking Dashiva.
Mike
Ben Mayers
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote in message
<36ADACF7...@unet.univie.ac.at>...
>
>
>Laura M. Parkinson schrieb:
>
>> a900...@unet.univie.ac.at pondered for a while, then blurted
out:
>>
>> >> > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>>
>> >> > As for Dashiva, I personally am of the opinion that
Dashiva is
>> >> > Osan'gar, and that Taim doesn't know about him. Thus, as
far as Taim
>> >> > knows, Dashiva is Jack Normal Asha'man, and could help to
throw a
>> >> > wrench in his own plans
>> >
It could be that they are both forsaken and just don't know that
other is there.
>> > Impossible, see above. Even Rand didn't grow in OP
strength that quickly.
>> >Taim has to suspect something about Dashiva.
>>
>> Er... didn't think of that before. Alright.. I think perhaps
Dashiva
>> did pass himself off as a "Darkfriend" to Taim, much as Halima
has
>> done to her "former boss" Aes Sedai in the Little Tower. I
still think
>> that Taim was genuinely surprised when Dashiva took it upon
himself to
>> command the strike force against RAnd, and that Taimandred has
no idea
>> of Dashiva's true identity. Of course, then I have to wonder
why Taim
>> was so put out when Rand hand-picked Dashiva anyhow..? Hrm. Is
it
>> possible that Dashiva only seemed to "develop" his strengh
when with
>> Rand, and thus Taim wouldn't have pointed him out to Rand? Or
perhaps
>> Taim did point Dashiva out at another time? I really need to
do a
>> reread soon.. *grr*
>
Taim might have felt that rand didnt trust him enough to watch
dashiva and that could have made him mad. I think if he thought
Rand was going to take Dashiva with him Taim would have never
told him...
> The fact that Taim was unhappy when Rand chose Dashiva as
one of his
>bodyguards and his fury about Dashiva's part in the attempt on
Rand indicate IMO
>that Dashiva never was wholly under Taim's control.
Also I have a thought on somthing that was written before on this
thread. Someone said that if Taim was Demandred he wouldn't use
the dragon or the sword on the collars of the asha'man....or at
least something to that effect. it could be more simple than
that because after te dashiva attack Taim came to Rand not
wearing the sword or the dragon on his collar. It could be he
wants to stay in good enuf standing to be able to run the BT
still but refuses to wear it himslef. He was pissed when rand
put it on him. More evidence?
Ben Mayers
UIN 3235505
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
Mike Jason schrieb:
> > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
> >
> > No, and that's the point. Taim points out a comparatively weak Narishma to
> > Rand as the one who learns/gains the OP strength very quickly. But he never
> > mentions a much more strong/skilled Dashiva. Also, Taim seems to be at least
> > partly aware of Dashiva's abilities, because he has made him A'shaman alongside
> > his cronies, while Narishma was only a Soldier.
>
> Taim points to Narishma as one who is learning quickly, to Dashiva (by
> signifying him Asha'man) as one who is already strong and skilled, but
> probably progressing slowly.
No, in the scene where Rand chooses Dashiva for his bodyguard Taim says that
Dashiva "gains strength rapidly". On the same day Dashiva makes a getaway for
Travelling and Rand notes that he holds almost as much saidin as Rand himself would
be able to. And Dashiva was apparently only training at the BT for 1.5 months (he
isn't there during Rand's first and second visit), so it would be impossible for him
to "progress slowly".
Twist it how you want, Dashiva is a FS-level channeler whom Taim hadn't reported
to Rand despite the explicit instructions.
> Presumably the potential for strength is
> seen in the progression and growth. If Dashiva is Osan'gar, as seems to
> be acknowledged, and in turn Aginor, then he would know what sort of
> progression would signify great strength and be cautious not to reveal it,
> but to start at one level and more or less stay there.
> In such a case, Dashiva early on is strong comparatively, but will
> have nowhere to grow from there.
But the non-sparker, and Taim assures Rand that Narishma is the only sparker
among the recruits, can't start strong "early on". He has to start by zero and grow,
so your "progression" theory doesn't apply. Also the fact that Dashiva wasn't hiding
his strength from Rand and other 8 Asha'man with him, indicates that he wasn't hiding
it from Taim either.
Again, however you turn it we have a FS-class channeler who apparently gained his
strength 10x quicker than Rand - something an experienced and truly loyal Taim was
bound to notice.
Laura M. Parkinson
>
>> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
<snip my argument that Demandred wouldn't mind masquerading as Taim,
regardless of his feelings for LTT>
> I don't think this is what Demandred would want. I agree that
>Demandred would want to demonstrate himself the better man, and top Lews
>Therin. Doing a stab in the back from the shadows just wouldn't cut it.
>He was in essentially the same role of General in the AoL, and likely had
>his own group of followers then as well. If rebelling and taking
>followers with him wasn't enough to satisfy his envy then, it seems
>unlikely he'd take the same route again.
I don't think that this is anything like his route before. Before, he
got sick of being #2 to LTT, and rebelled, going over to the "Dark
Side." (Okay, Darth.) Now, he's basically playing the snake in the
grass, ready to take LTT down with craft and subterfuge, rather than
the head-to-head conflict that went on before, and didn't work. His
new set of tactics makes a lot of sense to me.
<snippadee-do-dah, snippadee-ay>
>> I don't remember this.. anyhow, there's a vast difference from "a few
>> men" and an army of Asha'man. Regardless, even the idea of the rolling
>> ring of earth and fire seems like something more likely for a Forsaken
>> to perform, rather than a wilder, who would probably tend to do things
>> like straight fireballs, or earthquakes, or more "mundane" effects.
>> Granted, I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Taim to
>> develop something like this... just that it seems odd.
>
> True. It demonstrates the sort of mind that would have to think up
>his own tricks, develop compulsion and a test on his own. It makes Taim a
>very clever person and one continually developing his ideas.
*points out* I don't think Taim developed compulsion, unless I'm
missing some key point in the story. I think whatever happens, Taim is
clever, but I don't think Taim is, well, Taim.
>> Grab a couple of women? IIRC the number of men can never exceed the
>> number of women in the link. So if someone wanted a simple effect that
>> 10 men would be working to do, then they'd need 11 women just to
>> accomplish it, linked. While linking would make most things simpler in
>> coordination, if 10 men happened to be working together on something,
>> I think it would just be easier to learn to coordinate, rather than to
>> have to find 11 women each time they wanted to link. Besides, women
>> usually aren't as strong with earth and fire as men. Plus, I wonder
>> how many Women Dreadlords there were... most of the female Forsaken
>> don't seem to have taken any active battle positions, and I wonder if
>> this is true further down the line. In Randland, the only army that
>> seems to have any number of women in it is that of the Aiel (Rand's
>> and the Shaido). Women, in general, don't seem to take part in battle.
>> (With the exception of the Maidens, Faile's bunch who are looked on as
>> just plain odd anyhow, and "fire-brained Saldeans" whose husbands die
>> in battle.) So if there didn't tend to be as many female channelers
>> active in the battles, it would make sense for the males to coordinate
>> attacks like this, without the benefit of linking.
>
> That is an interesting point.
Thank you. :)
> Certain things did seem divided along gender lines in the AoL, as only
>the male Aiel were singing, and there is no evidence that any of the
>female Forsaken were blademasters.
>
> Nevertheless, Graendal is commanding one of the world's great captains
>in Arad Doman, and Semirhage suggests that she helped develop Trollocs.
>Perhaps they did not take part in battle, but given the effectiveness of a
>woman channelling unseen against a field of male channelers, I would think
>it odd that neither side would take advantage.
I'm not saying that NO women would take part in battles, just not
enough to really make linking something to count on in the heat of
battle. Besides, why would women channeling unseen against male
channelers be any more effective than vice versa? Especially since
male channelers can sense women holding the Source.
> Further, the building of the giant ter'angreal was, as I understood it,
>intended to be used jointly by men and women in the War of Power. If
>that was the case, it would only be an extension or outgrowth of ongoing
>circumstances of battle.
But not really in battle, per se. And one man and one woman using the
giant sa'angreal pair is different than a large number of women
joining the armies (enough to make linking feasible in battle).
Another reason just hit me that linking wouldn't be so feasible in the
midst of battle. As we have already seen, a link is something like
channeling through an angreal... the Power is magnified, due to the
number of channelers involved, but the flows are only directed by one
person. So you'd have, say maybe 50 or so channelers all tied up with
only one person able to effectively DO anything. Granted, their "raw
power" when they did do something would be greater, but would this be
worth giving up 49 other channelers who could be picking off
combatants, causing mayhem on the battlefield, etc. all at the same
time?
> The strike by the Hundred Companions was purportedly as a result of
>the disagreement along gender lines. Had there been no disagreement,
>presumably the strike would have included both men and women.
True, then again, the one major offensive thought to be the key to
ending a war doesn't exactly show what would be typical in battle
throughout the period.
One other point.. if the Hundred Companions, all male, WERE able to
coordinate so beautifully to place the seals of the DO's prison so
precisely, it would seem that they must have had some pretty great
experience coordinating in the first place.
> As to whether Demandred could develop new interlocking male weaves,
>perhaps he could, and perhaps the youth were trained to do so. Yet if
>both men and women were to be used in battle, and the great works were
>done by both, it would make more sense to train people to work together
>early.
Just wanted to point out, that you don't have to do one or the other.
You can train men (or women) to coordinate with each other, while also
teaching to link and to work together between the sexes.
> As you mentioned, the Forsaken feel they know all there is to know, and
>while slightly curious about the developments of such things as the warder
>bond, they don't appear particularly inclined to learn these new things.
>Under those circumstances, it would be quite an adjustment for Demandred
>to alter his battle techniques to be male only. I still submit he would
>be more likely to include women in links like Logain has done the more
>quickly, to battle in a way he was used to.
Somehow, I don't envision Demandred bonding Aes Sedai, who he looks on
as little better than children, or "so-called-Aiel" Wise Ones.
Especially as Rand has specifically ordered Taim to stay away from Aes
Sedai, unless they attack. Also, especially since we've already heard
that Taim initially frowned on the wife-bond in the first place.
>> If Taim were noticing enough to pick out the other DFs, why would
>> Dashiva be the only one he missed? How would Dashiva know just who to
>> pick, who Taim distrusted? Again, if Taim distrusted those other
>> Asha'man so much, why didn't he get rid of them.. he seems very ready
>> to do it in other cases. And why, when he was reporting to Rand after
>> the attack, did he appear so smug? If he were really loyal, you'd
>> think he'd be kicking himself for not warning his "boss."
>
> Well, Taim may have been smug in an "I told you so" sort of way. He
>warned Rand against Dashiva and look, Dashiva is a traitor who corrupted
>Taim's students.
> IF Taim had picked out the other DF's as ones to watch, Dashiva was
>taken from him relatively early on to be placed with Rand. At that time,
>Taim hadn't known the others long either. Further, he did seem to object
>to Rand picking Dashiva.
You have some points here.. but still, I can't imagine a "loyal" Taim
not warning Rand against either Dashiva or the other Asha'man, if he
suspected them. He might seem a bit smug, but he'd temper it (if he
were wise) with some apologies, even if they sounded insincere, like
"I'm sorry.. I simply assumed that you knew I had caught on to your
plans, and sent you untrustworthy Asha'man as I thought you wanted"...
Mike Jason
> Mike Jason <yu17...@yorku.ca> pondered for a while, then blurted out:
>
>
> I'm not saying that NO women would take part in battles, just not
> enough to really make linking something to count on in the heat of
> battle. Besides, why would women channeling unseen against male
> channelers be any more effective than vice versa? Especially since
> male channelers can sense women holding the Source.
As a matter of seeing flows and being able to defend against them. The
AS were essentially defenseless against Taim and the Asha'man at Dumai's
Wells. It would be the same in the AoL if a woman were striking at an
army of men, it would make it much more difficult to defend against.
>
> Another reason just hit me that linking wouldn't be so feasible in the
> midst of battle. As we have already seen, a link is something like
> channeling through an angreal... the Power is magnified, due to the
> number of channelers involved, but the flows are only directed by one
> person. So you'd have, say maybe 50 or so channelers all tied up with
> only one person able to effectively DO anything. Granted, their "raw
> power" when they did do something would be greater, but would this be
> worth giving up 49 other channelers who could be picking off
> combatants, causing mayhem on the battlefield, etc. all at the same
> time?
I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of pairs, like Graendal
and Sammael were doing. That way each pair could see any type of attack
directed at them, and a great deal of flexibility would be maintained.
Further, matching up stronger with weaker channelers would likely increase
the ability to affect the outcome of the battle.
>
> Somehow, I don't envision Demandred bonding Aes Sedai, who he looks on
> as little better than children, or "so-called-Aiel" Wise Ones.
> Especially as Rand has specifically ordered Taim to stay away from Aes
> Sedai, unless they attack. Also, especially since we've already heard
> that Taim initially frowned on the wife-bond in the first place.
True, but if he took one woman, even under normal linking conditions,
he'd control the link until he chose to end it, adding to his strength and
ability to sense female flows. It would also then take more than 13 of
the "half-trained children" to take him down, why would he not use this
strategy just for insurance? Just in case the AS are sufficient to
overwhelm the black tower.
Mike
Jeff Schwaber
wrote:
>In article <36A3EB...@unet.univie.ac.at>, a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
>
>> Fay Wouk wrote:
>> >
>> > > Webby wrote:
>> >
>> > My problem with Dashiva as Aginor is that Dashiva is so obviously nuts -
>> > talking to himself all the time etc. Unless he's faking it, this doesn't
>> > make sense, since he's protected from the taint. I know he's supposed to
>> > be a "mad scientist" but that's not necessarily the same as hearing voices
>> > in your head.
>>
>> Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
>> speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
>> scientists are prone to do so.
>
>Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere. Actually, I think
>I picked the idea up from other posts on this ng, and it seemed to make
>sense, given his behavior. There's no way of knowing which it is, but
>that's not really my point, although it was my supporting evidence. My
>point was that Dashiva strikes me as pretty out of it, and I thought his
>behavior was more taint-like than mad scientist-like. However, I'm
>perfectly happy to be convinced that I'm wrong, since it would make things
>much more neat and tiday if he is a 'gar.
>
>Fay
Unfortunately, I can't remember this well enough to answer the real
question, so I'll pose it to the group: When did Osan'gar and Aran'gar
appear, and was it before or after Dashiva was first seen? My memory
says that Dashiva has been tagging along longer than the 'gars, but
that may be wrong. If he has, we have incontrovertible proof that
Dashiva is not Osan'gar. If not, it's a really interesting theory that
I hadn't thought of.
Side note 1: What's this about Moghedien being raped? I missed
something.
Side note 2: I have a whole bunch of information about name origins
that I will post to add to the ones already here, so look for it.
Side note 3: Hello again everybody. Does anyone remember me? =)
Jeff
Jeff Schwaber jschwaber@wesleyan
ano...@voicenet.com UIN: 2366444
a900...@unet.univie.ac.at
>
> On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:25:29 +1300, f.w...@auckland.ac.nz (Fay Wouk)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <36A3EB...@unet.univie.ac.at>, a900...@unet.univie.ac.at wrote:
> >
> >> Fay Wouk wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Webby wrote:
> >> >
> >> > My problem with Dashiva as Aginor is that Dashiva is so obviously nuts -
> >> > talking to himself all the time etc. Unless he's faking it, this doesn't
> >> > make sense, since he's protected from the taint. I know he's supposed to
> >> > be a "mad scientist" but that's not necessarily the same as hearing voices
> >> > in your head.
> >>
> >> Were is it written that Dashiva hears voices in his head? He
> >> speaks to himself, but from my experience a lot of relatively sane
> >> scientists are prone to do so.
> >
> >Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere.
<snip>
>
> Unfortunately, I can't remember this well enough to answer the real
> question, so I'll pose it to the group: When did Osan'gar and Aran'gar
> appear, and was it before or after Dashiva was first seen?
The *gars appeared in the prologue to LOC, we first see
Dashiva in the beginning of ACOS.
<snip>
Steven Cooper
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:25:29 +1300, f.w...@auckland.ac.nz (Fay Wouk)
>wrote:
>>Since there's no Dashiva POV, it's not written anywhere. Actually, I think
>>I picked the idea up from other posts on this ng, and it seemed to make
>>sense, given his behavior. There's no way of knowing which it is, but
>>that's not really my point, although it was my supporting evidence. My
>>point was that Dashiva strikes me as pretty out of it, and I thought his
>>behavior was more taint-like than mad scientist-like. However, I'm
>>perfectly happy to be convinced that I'm wrong, since it would make things
>>much more neat and tiday if he is a 'gar.
>
>Unfortunately, I can't remember this well enough to answer the real
>question, so I'll pose it to the group: When did Osan'gar and Aran'gar
>appear, and was it before or after Dashiva was first seen? My memory
>says that Dashiva has been tagging along longer than the 'gars, but
>that may be wrong. If he has, we have incontrovertible proof that
>Dashiva is not Osan'gar. If not, it's a really interesting theory that
>I hadn't thought of.
The 'gars first appeared in the prologue of LOC. Dashiva wasn't seen until
the beginning of COS.
I think it's pretty clear from POD that Dashiva is Osan'gar, and therefore
Aginor -- the clincher for me was in [POD 24, A Time for Iron, 467-9] where
Dashiva suddenly drops completely out of character in order to bring the
strange behaviour of _saidin_ to Rand's attention. His usual vagueness is
replaced by a sneering, superior manner more suited to a lecturing
professor attempting to pound an obvious point into a particularly
dull-witted student. Even Rand notices the change, but being rather
clue-impaired at this point, doesn't attach any importance to it.
>Side note 1: What's this about Moghedien being raped? I missed
>something.
Read Moghedien's thoughts in [COS 25, Mindtrap] about her treatment at the
hands of Shaidar Haran. When RJ was asked at a signing if she was raped,
he replied, "Yes, among other things."
--
Steven Cooper | "I'm entitled to my opinion!"
Melbourne, Australia. | "It is your assumption that we are entitled
saco...@ozemail.com.au | to it as well that is irritating."