RJ being a perv.. sex in fantasy books
Kender Fifty One
*NOTHING* =)
Ryan Newberry
"Kender Fifty One" <neve...@h0ar.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:sxR46.59692$36.21...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com...
> well, if you've ever read the Sword of Truth series, a few boobs is
> *NOTHING* =)
Or A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm glad RJ keeps WOT as toned down as he does.
That much sex is annoying.
Ryan Newberry
"I"ve probably just offended some of you. GOOD"
jola...@my-deja.com
has toned down the sex part of it as much as not making it into a Harry
Potter.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dave OHearn
> well, if you've ever read the Sword of Truth series, a few boobs is
> *NOTHING* =)
When Terry Goodkind describes sex, though, he manages to make it seem
a normal part of adult life. He has love, and seduction, and conflict,
and enduring struggles together. When Jordan does it, it feels like a
soap opera bedroom scene. The characters are asexual 95% of the time, and
when they do have sex, once every four or five books, it feels like a
dirty little diversion, not an inseparable part of the characters'
personalities.
That said, there's an awful lot of sex in Sword of Truth, and some of it
is rather nasty. Not every style of story needs that much sex, that
semi-explicitly. But at least Goodkind gets the emotions right. He has
quality, not just quantity. Wheel of Time has a much more detailed world
and intricate plot, but I've never been able to empathize with the
characters, except Mat, Nynaeve, and sometimes Egwene, before she went
wacko.
--
Dave O'Hearn
Verteiron
"Dave OHearn" <dav...@yolen.oit.umass.edu> wrote in message
news:3a577409$1...@oit.umass.edu...
I'm not sure the characters are asexual 95% of the time, I think it just
isn't "talked about". I distinctly remember a reference to Rand thinking
about when "whenever" he and Min made love with the definite implication
that it was fairly frequent. Then there were Mat and Melidhra(sp.). They
were very obviously sleeping together, even though there was almost no
mention of it except the night of the attack, when she runs out naked and
Mat has to stumble around stuffing himself into pants... I think there's
actually quite a bit of sex in Randland, it just doesn't get talked about
much.
Verteiron, who has nothing worthwhile to say. Ever.
Rachel Rosenblum
<snip actual context>
> That much sex is annoying.
No amount of sex is annoying.
--
Rachel
Sorry, it was just laying there wanting to be used.
Lamoracke
Verteiron <vert...@home.com> wrote in message
news:2bL56.66510$36.26...@news1.rdc1.il.home.com...
Gsus. You gotta be kidding me. It reads like this. Filler - filler -more
filler - porno rape scene - filler filler end of book. Sound familiar? That
was his first book. Wizards First Rule. Same kinda thing happened in A Stone
Of Tears. Oh yeah, except that there were 2 scenes in that book. Please. RJ
is my opinion is a much better author, and doesnt need to inject it with
something that could appear in a skin magazine story section.
Lamoracke
Davian
Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14c1849a3...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Sort of like several members of this newsgroup...
Rachel Rosenblum
Well, then someone better hurry up and use them, before they go to
waste.
--
Rachel
David Chapman
>
> <snip actual context>
>
> > That much sex is annoying.
>
> No amount of sex is annoying.
I'll agree with that whatever emphasis you put on it.
--
... that was the Mormon Tabernacle Choir
doing their Annual Obscene Phone Call.
jola...@my-deja.com
writing as the story progresses. I remember finding the story
quite "unhuman" and unrealistic when it comes to the romantic
relationships. (which i can accept or else i'd be reading Danielle
Steeles or whoever) I notice the off hand description of sex in later
books as you have point out, and it has become more realistic. I
especially find the relationship between Mat and Tylin amuzing.
[possible WH spoiler ahead]
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
i just wonder how much psychological effect that has on Tuon viewing
Mat as a "toy". Looking forward to see how that would tie in with the
rest of the story.
Rachel Rosenblum
> "Rachel Rosenblum" <araf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.14c1849a3...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > Ryan Newberry says...
> >
> > <snip actual context>
> >
> > > That much sex is annoying.
> >
> > No amount of sex is annoying.
>
> I'll agree with that whatever emphasis you put on it.
You know, now I had to go through that entire sentence stressing
different words. Yes, it does work just about every way.
--
Rachel
TheBluRidr
beautiful part of most normal people's lives. Jordan seems to almost realize
it, but seems to have some sort of hang up about it (maybe his parents made him
feel guilty about sex).
In actual relationships, I much prefer the writing of Piers Anthony. While he
can't create worlds like Jordan can, he does create actual interaction between
men and women beyond annoyance and distrust of motives.
As for those who are annoyed by sex, I sincerely hope you get some. SOON!
JB
Firefly.
--
John B.
"TheBluRidr" <thebl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010106232901...@ng-mc1.aol.com...
Dave OHearn
> Um, I gotta say. Terry Goodkind's characters have endearing struggles?
> Gsus. You gotta be kidding me. It reads like this. Filler - filler -more
> filler - porno rape scene - filler filler end of book. Sound familiar?
> That was his first book. Wizards First Rule.
Wizard's First Rule had a lot more rape and other assorted nastiness than
that. It was far too much to serve any purpose. Moreover, there was no
adult consensual sex in the whole book, just rape, mutilation, torture,
yuck, yuck, yuck, etc. And thank the Light, all the pedophilia happened off
stage. Goodkind seemed to be using the "dark" sex to make his villains
more contemptible, not as an insight into human emotional experience.
However, he's gotten much, much better. I do not recommend reading his
books in order, if you're interested in giving him a try. Start with his
4th book, _Temple of the Winds_. The sex is still ubiquitous, but it's no
longer thrown in gratuitously for shock value. It actually does make the
characters seem more human.
> Same kinda thing happened in A Stone Of Tears. Oh yeah, except that
> there were 2 scenes in that book. Please. RJ is my opinion is a much
> better author, and doesnt need to inject it with something that could
> appear in a skin magazine story section.
RJ is, without doubt, better at creating worlds. He may be the best
author of all time in that respect. But I very rarely have an emotional
reaction to his writing, and it's almost never empathy with the
characters. I sometimes get excited about something neat being done with
the Power, or the conclusion of a long plot line, but that's about it.
--
Dave O'Hearn
Kate Nepveu
> In actual relationships, I much prefer the writing of Piers Anthony. While he
> can't create worlds like Jordan can, he does create actual interaction between
> men and women beyond annoyance and distrust of motives.
Just when you think you've seen everything...
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- Paired Reading Page; Reviews
** PLEASE NOTE NEW URL! Updated 12/19/2000: New Pairs, Bishop Review **
"Bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh." --anonymous
David Chapman
news:hvki5tgn5gbb4ib8d...@4ax.com...
> thebl...@aol.com (TheBluRidr) wrote:
>
> > In actual relationships, I much prefer the writing of Piers Anthony.
While he
> > can't create worlds like Jordan can, he does create actual
interaction between
> > men and women beyond annoyance and distrust of motives.
>
> Just when you think you've seen everything...
Well? He *can* write characters reasonably well. Anthony's chief
weakness is that he can't ever seem to decide if he's writing for
children or adults, so he tends to write adult material in a
children's-fiction style.
jola...@my-deja.com
thebl...@aol.com (TheBluRidr) wrote:
> I can't belive what a bunch of eunichs we have in this group. Sex is
a
> beautiful part of most normal people's lives. Jordan seems to almost
realize
> it, but seems to have some sort of hang up about it (maybe his
parents made him
> feel guilty about sex).
> As for those who are annoyed by sex, I sincerely hope you get some.
SOON!
>
Was i misunderstood? I wasn't annoyed by it. I was say RJ is getting
better at describing relationship and sex as he writes more. However, i
do agree a lot more writers do better in this area than he is (or
should i say, most writers). But then, with his amazing ability in the
rest of the area, who are we to critize him?
sp_...@my-deja.com
area. If you want to read about sex, fantasy isn't the genre...
Xelloss
[snip]
> RJ is, without doubt, better at creating worlds.
Especially when you consider that a good deal of elements in Sword of
Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
Ex: The main character ends up going to a foreign land that few have made
it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a tribal warrior society
(Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader through prophecy
(Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
--
=================================
Xelloss Metallium.
Love him or hate him, he's still _there_.
Dave OHearn
> Dave OHearn wrote:
> [snip]
> > RJ is, without doubt, better at creating worlds.
>
> Especially when you consider that a good deal of elements in Sword of
> Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
If you're new to fantasy, I can understand thinking that, but it's rather
impossible. Goodkind doesn't even read other fantasy, so it would be
quite the trick to copy it. These sorts of allegations pop up all the
time, as in RJ ripping off Dune. The truth is that they're just common
motifs in myth. There are *piles* of WoT/Dune similarities, but they're
all a mixture of coincidence and pulling from common sources.
Besides that, Goodkind doesn't even try to create worlds. He creates
characters, and makes up details of the world that explain the
characters' past lives and motivations. It barely even qualifies as
fantasy; I think of his work more as fairy tales.
> Ex: The main character ends up going to a foreign land that few have made
> it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a tribal warrior society
> (Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader through prophecy
> (Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
RJ doesn't own copyrights on dangerous lands and tribal warrior
societies. Besides that, the Old World looks nothing like the Waste, and
the Baka Ban Mana get all of 10 pages. And I doubt Caharin is repeated
more than three times. Goodkind would have to be beyond pathetic to read
four novels into WoT just to steal one word.
--
Dave O'Hearn
T Sean Connolly
>Dave OHearn wrote:
>[snip]
>> RJ is, without doubt, better at creating worlds.
>
>Especially when you consider that a good deal of elements in Sword of
>Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
>
>Ex: The main character ends up going to a foreign land that few have made
>it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a tribal warrior society
>(Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader through prophecy
>(Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
Amazing. No other fantasy books use these plot devices, do they?
--
T Sean Connolly tsean.connolly @ btinternet.com
David Chapman
message news:ofqp5t0650nidv1ft...@4ax.com...
I believe it's the conjunction with far too many other plot devices
used in WoT, exclusively used after (often *just* after*) their use in
WoT.
--
Where are all the good men dead?
In the heart, or in the head?
Andrew Lusk
Dave OHearn wrote:
>
> RJ doesn't own copyrights on dangerous lands and tribal warrior
> societies. Besides that, the Old World looks nothing like the Waste,
and
> the Baka Ban Mana get all of 10 pages. And I doubt Caharin is
repeated
> more than three times. Goodkind would have to be beyond pathetic to
read
> four novels into WoT just to steal one word.
But yet it happened.
Dave OHearn
Try a web search on "Caharin". I just did. It appears to be Irish or
Celtic, although it's also in some Anime and a few web pages in German.
I will never understand the mentality of people who constantly accuse
Author X of ripping off Author Y. I used to work on a MUD. We had 100%
original material, and yet people would keep logging on and saying we
were ripping of somebody named Feist because the name of our capital of
the dark elf empire reminded them of a lake in Feist's books. Ignoring
that I've never even seen a Feist book, you'd think that if I was going
to rip the guy off, I'd do more than steal one name, rearranging some
letters.
Also, people who levie these accusaions don't understand the mentality of
an artist. Let's say I just wrote 800 pages of original material. It's
mine. I labored on it and I love it. Now why the hell would I go through
all that work, just to rip off a few random ideas from other people? If I
wanted to do that, I'd take piles of ideas, not just a handful.
--
Dave O'Hearn
Bm1359
adsm...@my-deja.com
> Especially when you consider that a good deal
of elements in Sword of
> Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
>
> Ex: The main character ends up going to a
foreign land that few have made
> it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a
tribal warrior society
> (Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader
through prophecy
> (Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
I don't think Goodkind has anything on Jordan for
rip offs .... Jordan has more than blatantly
ripped off Herbert's Dune.
Ex. The main character ends up going to a
foreign land that few have made it to alive
(Arrakis=Aiel Waste), meets a tribal warrior
society (Fremen=Aiel), becomes their leader
through prophecy (Mahdi/Kwisatz
Haderach=Car'a'carn).
Let's give the original credit where it is due.
Don't get me wrong, I love WOT - but Dune has it
beaten by a long shot.
Xelloss
>
> > Especially when you consider that a good deal
> of elements in Sword of
> > Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
> >
> > Ex: The main character ends up going to a
> foreign land that few have made
> > it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a
> tribal warrior society
> > (Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader
> through prophecy
> > (Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
>
> I don't think Goodkind has anything on Jordan for
> rip offs .... Jordan has more than blatantly
> ripped off Herbert's Dune.
>
> Ex. The main character ends up going to a
> foreign land that few have made it to alive
> (Arrakis=Aiel Waste), meets a tribal warrior
> society (Fremen=Aiel), becomes their leader
> through prophecy (Mahdi/Kwisatz
> Haderach=Car'a'carn).
Right, but here's the thing: my given example was just one of many
rip-offs in the series.
I do appreciate the way Goodkind has managed to pull off a _creative_
rip-off, with undoubtedly better character interaction, but it remains
that he still ripped off RJ.
Andrea Phillips
Elayne is having twins. Aviendha is having four healthy babies, all at
the same time, but there's something weird about it.
I propose that Elayne will have twins and, at some point, MIN will also
have twins, but Aviendha won't have any children of her own. They will
then perform the first-siblings ritual on the two sets of twins with
Aviendha as their birth mother. This will bind Aviendha into the family
as one of the three mothers, and will also bind the children more
closely together. Really, it's a very sweet idea. :)
This also removes the extreme biological improbability of a woman in
this sort of setting carrying four healthy bundles o' joy to term, and
also removes the number of children running around underfoot from six to
four, also a more manageable number.
Any thoughts?
--Andrea
Kidkodiak
>
> Especially when you consider that a good deal of elements in Sword of
> Truth were blatantly ripped off from RJ.
>
> Ex: The main character ends up going to a foreign land that few have
made
> it to alive (Aiel Waste ==> Old World), meets a tribal warrior society
> (Aiel ==> Baka Ban Mana), becomes their leader through prophecy
> (Car'a'carn ==> Caharin).
>
Now don't get me wrong. I think RJ is the best author out there, at
least the best I have come across so far. However its hard to say some
one ripped him off when he rips many other people off as well. At least
the number of similarities in his story to other stories is remarkable.
Examples:
RJ: Dark One and 12 Forsaken
Glen Cook: Queen of the Dark, 10 Who were Taken
RJ: Moraine
JRR Tolkien: Gandalf (Hell, WOT == Lord of the Rings + Embellishment)
RJ: The Whole Aiel Waste Thing
Frank Herbert: Dune
RJ: Tinkers
Terry Brooks: I'm not sure or the name but in the 'Elfstones of
Shannara' there is a group of people that travel around in gayly
colored Wagons that remind me alot of the Tinkers. They got the whole
peaceful traders, like to dance at night and get real drunk thing goin
on)
Theres more to be found. The thing is its natural to draw from what you
read, see and hear. Its also not unheard of for people to have similar
thoughts without either person knowing of the other, or their work.
--
Kidkodiak
Once in every man's life he just has to say,
"what the blood and bloody ashes!"
David Chapman
news:3A5FCB45...@optonline.net...
> Hey. I'm new. Be gentle. :)
> Any thoughts?
You should learn to start new threads, rather than hijack old ones.
This is not hard.
BTW, your idea is nothing new. Sorry.
Allan Lewis
wrote:
Reading this thread reminded me of the following article:
http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/wc1-2.html
Hope it's of interest...
--
ซไglป
Native-dad
Kidkodiak <kidk...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93p3hk$3fp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Theres more to be found. The thing is its natural to draw from what you
> read, see and hear. Its also not unheard of for people to have similar
> thoughts without either person knowing of the other, or their work.
>
> --
I agree - there are a lot of elements in RJ's books (though I still love
them) that appear "borrowed" from other sources. However, the Terry Goodkind
series seems to ONLY borrow from RJ's books, not from a wide variety of
fantasy novels. I'm pretty oblivious to such things, but even before hearing
other talk about it, I was smacked in the face with it in "Blood of the
Fold" and more and more each book thereafter. Whitecloaks, Dreamers, Stone
of Tear(s) (c'mon, this is obviously a joke), Sisters of the Light, Sisters
of the Dark, the Mord-Sith that are loyal to him are too much like the
Maidens, the typically mentioned Caharin thing, collaring male "magicians"
to control them from harming themselves and others.... of course, there's
also the typical Star Wars (and yes, I know it didn't originate with Star
Wars - this is a tongue-in-cheek statement) "The Big Bad Guy is actually the
Young Apprentice Good Guy's Daddy" thing.
I enjoyed Goodkind's first few books. He's a little too much into S&M for
me, though, so I quit reading a book ago.
Wendy - lurker 2+ years
Andrea Phillips
David Chapman wrote:
> You should learn to start new threads, rather than hijack old ones.
> This is not hard.
I'm sorry, I thought I had started a new thread. New version of
unfamiliar newsreader, etc. It took me until my husband told me that it
was in an old thread for me to make sense of what you had said.
I'll try not to let it happen again. :/
--Andrea
John Welle
said...
> RJ: Tinkers
> Terry Brooks: I'm not sure or the name but in the 'Elfstones of
> Shannara' there is a group of people that travel around in gayly
> colored Wagons that remind me alot of the Tinkers. They got the whole
> peaceful traders, like to dance at night and get real drunk thing goin
> on)
>
Except you forget the obvious difference that Terry Brook's 'tinkers'
were a vile bunch who *actually were* liable to steal anything in eye's-
sight, and no strangers to violence. The only valid comparision is that
both tinkers and Terry Brooks travelling people are a historical
reference to gypsies(sp?). IOW, they both have 'ripped off' real life.
The mere fact that you try to imply that RJ has ripped of Terry Brooks
in any humanily possible way disgusts me. Terry Brooks sucks like a
black hole. If not even more.
--
- And Much of Madness And More of Sin
And Horror, The Soul of the Plot -
John Welle
Paul Miller
> in any humanily possible way disgusts me. Terry Brooks sucks like a
> black hole. If not even more.
Gee, tell us what you REALLY think!
Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole". Did Terry not answer
your fan mail when you were a kid or something? It sounds like you have
issues.
--
Paul Miller - st...@fxtech.com
John Welle
said...
> Gee, tell us what you REALLY think!
>
> Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
> best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
> Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole".
Heh. I stand for that. Terry Brooks uses a nauseous over-clicheed
language, and hasn't, IMAO, ever produced an original idea of his own.
That's why I replied in the harsh tone I did; because the poster claimed
that RJ had been ripping off Terry Brooks.
Now this may come as a shock to you, so brace yourself; I actually like
Robert Jordan in spite of my dislike for Terry Brooks! Can you believe
that? Guess not..
> Did Terry not answer your fan mail when you were a kid or something?
> It sounds like you have issues.
Oh, fuck off already. I just don't like his work. Period.
Michelle Haines
> Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
> best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
> Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole". Did Terry not answer
> your fan mail when you were a kid or something? It sounds like you have
> issues.
I read a couple of his books that my husband had laying around the
house (His mom cleaned out his room and gave us all his old books)
and, Wow, the Shannara books are bad. Really, amazingly bad. Of
course, the one I read was the one where the grandkids (or
something like that) run off to kill an evil book.
Michelle
Flutist
Kidkodiak
John Welle <sunshi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> The mere fact that you try to imply that RJ has ripped of Terry
Brooks
> in any humanily possible way disgusts me. Terry Brooks sucks like a
> black hole. If not even more.
>
I do not imply anything. I am saying, if you read, you will see similiar
things from; one book to another, one author to another. Your personal
taste for one author or another really matters little to me. I read
Terry Brooks when I was 12. That was a long time ago now. At the time I
enjoyed his story.
Now I could go on here to say something like, "He might suck like a
black hole, but not like your mother" but I won't. Thats probably not
necessary.
John Welle
<93ratv$mff$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> said...
> >
> > The mere fact that you try to imply that RJ has ripped of Terry
> Brooks
> > in any humanily possible way disgusts me. Terry Brooks sucks like a
> > black hole. If not even more.
> >
>
> I do not imply anything. I am saying, if you read, you will see similiar
> things from; one book to another, one author to another. Your personal
> taste for one author or another really matters little to me. I read
> Terry Brooks when I was 12. That was a long time ago now. At the time I
> enjoyed his story.
Look, you like Terry Brooks. That's fine. It doesn't matter dick to me.
Tastes vary, and I accept it. But you say you didn't try to imply
anything in your previous post? That's just fucking outrageous. Either
you are too stupid too know what the word 'imply' mean, or you are just
trying to distort the facts. Let me refresh your mind:
"However its hard to say someone ripped him [RJ] off when he rips many
other people off as well. At least the number of similarities in his
story to other stories is remarkable."
Now if you had let the first sentence stand alone, I wouldn't have had
to use a word like 'imply'. When the second sentence is added, however,
you reduce it to an implication. You try to back that implication up
with a long list of what you call 'similarities'.
What did you expect anyway? An avalanche of claps on your shoulder, and
people going 'Yeah, that RJ dude sure is a rip-off'?. Well, I got a
newsflash for you. This is a Robert Jordan *fan* group. And the
Gandalv/Moraine comparison? Fuck, I must have heard that a million
times. You could at least have found something new, when you first
decided to go on your crusade of 'remarkable similarities'.
To me, your post appeared as a 'kick me in the ass'-sign. So I did.
>
> Now I could go on here to say something like, "He might suck like a
> black hole, but not like your mother" but I won't. Thats probably not
> necessary.
>
Oh, I should have realized. When you said it was a long time ago since
you read Terry Brooks, you meant long time ago like at least several
month's didn't you? Well, enjoy your teens. Watch out for those pesky
pimples.
Dave OHearn
>
> RJ: Dark One and 12 Forsaken
> Glen Cook: Queen of the Dark, 10 Who were Taken
There are 13 Forsaken. It's a reference to Catholic propaganda about
there being 12 or 13 "witches" in a "black mass". It's supposed to be an
inversion of Jesus' apostles. It could also be a reference to the
superstition about 13 being unlucky, but even that goes back to the
Catholic witch stuff. Friday the 13th is considered unlucky because Jesus
died on a Friday, for example.
> RJ: Moraine
> JRR Tolkien: Gandalf (Hell, WOT == Lord of the Rings + Embellishment)
Tolkien did not invent the traveler with mysterious powers that brings
trouble to a boring town. It's general xenophobia; people have always
been afraid of travelers, drifters, wanderers, etc.
> RJ: The Whole Aiel Waste Thing
> Frank Herbert: Dune
The FAQ covers this one.
> RJ: Tinkers
> Terry Brooks: I'm not sure or the name but in the 'Elfstones of
> Shannara' there is a group of people that travel around in gayly
> colored Wagons that remind me alot of the Tinkers. They got the whole
> peaceful traders, like to dance at night and get real drunk thing goin
> on)
It's more likely a reference to Gypsies, who were very flamboyant with
colors and traveled between cities in wagons.
--
Dave O'Hearn
Doug Meerschaert
> There are 13 Forsaken. It's a reference to Catholic propaganda about
> there being 12 or 13 "witches" in a "black mass". It's supposed to be an
> inversion of Jesus' apostles. It could also be a reference to the
> superstition about 13 being unlucky, but even that goes back to the
> Catholic witch stuff. Friday the 13th is considered unlucky because Jesus
> died on a Friday, for example.
I'm sure you're right about the Catholic stuff, but there are references
that go back farther than that, to the pre-christian Romans and greeks,
IIRC.
And yes, Covens *did* have thirteen memebers. Or two. Or three, four,
five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, fourteen, or more.
> Tolkien did not invent the traveler with mysterious powers that brings
> trouble to a boring town. It's general xenophobia; people have always
> been afraid of travelers, drifters, wanderers, etc.
Actually, he did. Like 'trek, Tolkien defined a whole genre that it
appeared to write about. A copy of Tolkien's work went back in time and
defined all of the cultural myths it was drawn from.
> It's more likely a reference to Gypsies, who were very flamboyant with
> colors and traveled between cities in wagons.
Don't forget the internet. :) Wandering bands looking for songs that
seem to steal from everyone is a direct reference to the internet and MP3s.
DM
P.S. Help! Kovar's infected me with the silly disease!
David Chapman
news:3a639af0$1...@oit.umass.edu...
> Kidkodiak (kidk...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> >
> > RJ: Dark One and 12 Forsaken
> > Glen Cook: Queen of the Dark, 10 Who were Taken
>
> There are 13 Forsaken. It's a reference to Catholic propaganda about
> there being 12 or 13 "witches" in a "black mass". It's supposed to
be an
> inversion of Jesus' apostles. It could also be a reference to the
> superstition about 13 being unlucky, but even that goes back to the
> Catholic witch stuff.
13 is supposed to be unlucky because it was the number who ate at the
Last Supper. SFAIAA, it has nothing to do with Catholic witchery.
Jessica Gleason
news:t68rkh9...@corp.supernews.com...
This is one of those threads that could just go on and on and on and
on if everyone posted their theory on where the superstition
surrounding the number 13 first arose...however, I think it is
necessary to point out that reference to the number occurs even before
Christian times, so it is not necessarily derived from anything
related to either Christ or the Catholic church. While church
propaganda certainly made the superstition well-known, and added fuel
to the fire, it was considered a holy number way before then. Many
pre-Christian cultures had a special reverence for the number 3 in
their religious practices (no, the Catholics did not invent the triune
God, either). One speculation on the importance of 13 is the
combination of 1, representing the "whole" and the greater divinity,
and 3, representing whatever 3 facets were of importance to that
particular religion (man/god/nature; maiden/mother/crone; etc). The
Catholic church may have contributed to the "unlucky" aspect of this
number in the race to crush all Pagan belief systems, but its
"magical" properties existed well before them.
Jess
The Great Gray Skwid
> "David Chapman" <anti...@evildeath.madasafish.com> wrote in message
> news:t68rkh9...@corp.supernews.com...
> > 13 is supposed to be unlucky because it was the number who ate at
> the
> > Last Supper. SFAIAA, it has nothing to do with Catholic witchery.
> This is one of those threads that could just go on and on and on and
> on if everyone posted their theory on where the superstition
> surrounding the number 13 first arose...however, I think it is
> necessary to point out that reference to the number occurs even before
> Christian times, so it is not necessarily derived from anything
> related to either Christ or the Catholic church.
It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
one culture or another, or even most of them.
Although, you don't hear much about 17.
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"I'd be all over you like Tommy Hilfiger on a loser." -- Ded Bob
Ryan Klippenstine
<sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<mystical signifigance of 13>
>It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
>one culture or another, or even most of them.
>
>Although, you don't hear much about 17.
Doubtlessly due to the machinations of the Freemasons and the Elders
of Zion.
--
ry...@westman.wave.ca
Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be
persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right."
-Robert Park, of the American Physical Society
Ryan Klippenstine
wrote:
> While church
>propaganda certainly made the superstition well-known, and added fuel
>to the fire, it was considered a holy number way before then. Many
>pre-Christian cultures had a special reverence for the number 3 in
>their religious practices (no, the Catholics did not invent the triune
>God, either). One speculation on the importance of 13 is the
>combination of 1, representing the "whole" and the greater divinity,
>and 3, representing whatever 3 facets were of importance to that
>particular religion (man/god/nature; maiden/mother/crone; etc).
But this would only work in a base-10 positional notation. Last I
heard, that wasn't invented until the eighth century AD, which would
make it rather difficult for pre-Christian cultures to use this line
of reasoning.
Dave Rothgery
>
> It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> one culture or another, or even most of them.
>
> Although, you don't hear much about 17.
>
>
--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drot...@myrealbox.com
http://drothgery.editthispage.com
The Great Gray Skwid
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:17:21 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> <mystical signifigance of 13>
> >It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> >one culture or another, or even most of them.
> >Although, you don't hear much about 17.
> Doubtlessly due to the machinations of the Freemasons and the Elders
> of Zion.
Blackballing bastards! I wouldn't become a Freemason now if you got down
on your lousy, stinking knees and begged me!
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"Forget about World Peace, visualize using your turn signal."
Ben Ryan
<Why is 13 so damn mystically special?>
> It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> one culture or another, or even most of them.
>
> Although, you don't hear much about 17.
According to some study, it's the number deemed most random by the general
public.
--
Ben Ryan http://www.core.binghamton.edu/~mobius/
"They cannot build a multibillion dollar business on the backs of other
people's works." - Hillary Rosen, CEO of the RIAA on Napster
Randy Goldberg MD
news:MPG.14ce83ab3...@news.gte.com...
> > of Zion.
>
> Blackballing bastards! I wouldn't become a Freemason now if you got down
> on your lousy, stinking knees and begged me!
I've got my own apron!
****************************************
Randy Goldberg MD
gold...@bestweb.net
http://www.bestweb.net/~goldberg
John S. Novak, III
<ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote:
>But this would only work in a base-10 positional notation. Last I
>heard, that wasn't invented until the eighth century AD, which would
>make it rather difficult for pre-Christian cultures to use this line
>of reasoning.
The Hindus had it as early as 250 BC.
Which still doesn't leave a lot of room for development between that
(in India only) and the advent of the Christian Church.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
The Humblest Man on the Net
Ryan Klippenstine
wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:41:57 GMT, Ryan Klippenstine
><ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote:
>
>>But this would only work in a base-10 positional notation. Last I
>>heard, that wasn't invented until the eighth century AD, which would
>>make it rather difficult for pre-Christian cultures to use this line
>>of reasoning.
>
>The Hindus had it as early as 250 BC.
Erk. I was thinking of the Arabs... who didn't actually invent it, but
borrowed it from the Hindus.
I've really got to stop doing that.
Madhu
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:41:57 GMT, Ryan Klippenstine
><ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote:
>
>>But this would only work in a base-10 positional notation. Last I
>>heard, that wasn't invented until the eighth century AD, which would
>>make it rather difficult for pre-Christian cultures to use this line
>>of reasoning.
>
>The Hindus had it as early as 250 BC.
>Which still doesn't leave a lot of room for development between that
>(in India only) and the advent of the Christian Church.
IIRC, the legends of vedic history peg it earlier than that. The
oldest known documents still preserved today are the Rig veda from
circa 1000 BC, and the "sunya" or zero concept and the base-10 place
are supposed to have evolved anywhere from 100-300 years afterwards
and retro-fitted into the Vedas. Of course, as always, there is some
dispute about the accuracies of the dating process.
On a different note, assuming your statement of about 250 BC
that pegs it around the reign of Ashoka who ruled tracts of
land far into WesternCentral Asia and who is documented to have sent
missionary Buddhists into regions like North/East Asia (all of the
orient - which is when/how the Buddhist influence spread there),
South-east Asia, Central/Western Asia as far west as Syria and
reaching into North/Western Africa (Egypt). Given the interconnections
between the concept of sunya or nothingness and the religious
doctrines of the Buddhists, it is not unthinkable for the concept to
be introduced that far away in a relatively short period of time.
John S. Novak, III
>>The Hindus had it as early as 250 BC.
>IIRC, the legends of vedic history peg it earlier than that. The
>oldest known documents still preserved today are the Rig veda from
>circa 1000 BC, and the "sunya" or zero concept and the base-10 place
>are supposed to have evolved anywhere from 100-300 years afterwards
>and retro-fitted into the Vedas. Of course, as always, there is some
>dispute about the accuracies of the dating process.
The earliest preserved fragments of the positional notation I am aware
of are from about 250 BC. That puts a bound on what I am willing to
discuss.
Rachel Rosenblum
> The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> <Why is 13 so damn mystically special?>
>
> > It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> > one culture or another, or even most of them.
> >
> > Although, you don't hear much about 17.
>
> According to some study, it's the number deemed most random by the general
> public.
>
How exactly did they come up with that? Why were they doing a study on
the randomness of numbers? Who did this? What was the point? When was
this done? And where can I find a copy? I think that about does it for
my questions on the matter.
--
Rachel
Johan Gustafsson
The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> writes:
> We leaned closer as Jessica Gleason <je...@woh.rr.com> whispered:
> > "David Chapman" <anti...@evildeath.madasafish.com> wrote in message
> > news:t68rkh9...@corp.supernews.com...
> <snip 13's un/luckiness>
> > > 13 is supposed to be unlucky because it was the number who ate at
> > the
> > > Last Supper. SFAIAA, it has nothing to do with Catholic witchery.
> > This is one of those threads that could just go on and on and on and
> > on if everyone posted their theory on where the superstition
> > surrounding the number 13 first arose...however, I think it is
> > necessary to point out that reference to the number occurs even before
> > Christian times, so it is not necessarily derived from anything
> > related to either Christ or the Catholic church.
>
> It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> one culture or another, or even most of them.
>
> Although, you don't hear much about 17.
It's a very mild profanity in swedish, actually. Although that may be
for different reasons.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** e98...@efd.lth.se
Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
Ben Ryan
Well, in typical Usenet fashion, I Can't Locate a Link Right Now.
Though I did find this site which contradicts me and may be closely
related to my original information source:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/random.html
Also this one, which gives yet a different answer (look up Eleven):
http://home.sprynet.com/~hotoff/crickgl.htm#ltre
Here's one that actually begins to agree with me, but then laughs and
bitchslaps me most cruelly:
http://www.merrymeet.com/jon/usingrandom.html
The last link seems to be the most serious attempt at actually resolving
the issue, though it by no means exhibits a satisfactory level of
scientific rigour:
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/notes/pick-a-number.html
So though I'm full of shit on this one, I take heart in the fact that
everyone else seems to be full of shit about it, too.
The Great Gray Skwid
Well.
That was random.
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"Cthulhu is my codpiece" http://skwid.home.texas.net
Jessica Gleason
"Ben Ryan" <mob...@core.binghamton.edu> wrote
> So though I'm full of shit on this one, I take heart in the fact
that
> everyone else seems to be full of shit about it, too.
Amen, brother! : )
Jess
Rachel Rosenblum
> Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Ben Ryan says...
> >> The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> <Why is 13 so damn mystically special?>
> >>
> >> > It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> >> > one culture or another, or even most of them.
> >> >
> >> > Although, you don't hear much about 17.
> >>
> >> According to some study, it's the number deemed most random by the general
> >> public.
> >
> > How exactly did they come up with that? Why were they doing a study on
> > the randomness of numbers? Who did this? What was the point? When was
> > this done? And where can I find a copy? I think that about does it for
> > my questions on the matter.
>
> Well, in typical Usenet fashion, I Can't Locate a Link Right Now.
Of course not, that was why the where question was the last one.
> Though I did find this site which contradicts me and may be closely
> related to my original information source:
>
> http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/random.html
Now this one explains Clerks or at least a part of it. Which is a
pretty good task in and of itself.
> Also this one, which gives yet a different answer (look up Eleven):
>
> http://home.sprynet.com/~hotoff/crickgl.htm#ltre
Do you read the Roman numeral part about XI?
> Here's one that actually begins to agree with me, but then laughs and
> bitchslaps me most cruelly:
>
> http://www.merrymeet.com/jon/usingrandom.html
Well yes, it can't be a random number if it is the only number you can
use as a random number.
> The last link seems to be the most serious attempt at actually resolving
> the issue, though it by no means exhibits a satisfactory level of
> scientific rigour:
>
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/notes/pick-a-number.html
>
You know if someone came up to me and asked me to choose a number
between 1 and infinity, I would probably be one of the people who said
infinity-1. Either that or I would just sprout off a string of numbers
until I got tired.
> So though I'm full of shit on this one, I take heart in the fact that
> everyone else seems to be full of shit about it, too.
This is pretty much what I figured. I can't see actually being able to
figure out which number is the most random number. Though 17 is a
pretty random number, I suppose.
--
Rachel
Rachel Rosenblum
> We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > Ben Ryan says...
> > > The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > <Why is 13 so damn mystically special?>
> > > > It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> > > > one culture or another, or even most of them.
> > > > Although, you don't hear much about 17.
> > > According to some study, it's the number deemed most random by the general
> > > public.
> > How exactly did they come up with that? Why were they doing a study on
> > the randomness of numbers? Who did this? What was the point? When was
> > this done? And where can I find a copy? I think that about does it for
> > my questions on the matter.
>
> Well.
>
> That was random.
>
>
Thank you. I try.
--
Rachel
Ben Ryan
> Ben Ryan says...
<Specialness of 17?>
<I say it's the Most Random Number>
>> Also this one, which gives yet a different answer (look up Eleven):
>>
>> http://home.sprynet.com/~hotoff/crickgl.htm#ltre
>
> Do you read the Roman numeral part about XI?
Nope. Interesting.
>> So though I'm full of shit on this one, I take heart in the fact that
>> everyone else seems to be full of shit about it, too.
>
> This is pretty much what I figured. I can't see actually being able to
> figure out which number is the most random number. Though 17 is a
> pretty random number, I suppose.
Well, you might actually do a rigourous version of the last study, and
just ask lots of people what the most random number is off the top of
their head. You wouldn't even have to provide bounds, I wouldn't think.
The mode of the resulting histogram should give you the answer. <shrug>
Just one way to figure it.
Hal Ratay
"Ryan Klippenstine" <ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote in message
news:3a64beef...@news.westman.wave.ca...
Of course the number the mason really dont want you paying attention to is
23... I thought the mystical nature of 13 also had something to do with each
season being approx 13 weeks in length... thirteen tarot cards...of course
thirteen x 38461.538461538461538461538
4615385 is the number of the majority that elected al gore this year, but
hey if i wanted smoke blown up my ass id be at home with some cigarettes and
a short length of hose
J. Cocker
>
> "Ryan Klippenstine" <ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote in message
> news:3a64beef...@news.westman.wave.ca...
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:17:21 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> > <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > <mystical signifigance of 13>
> >
> > >It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> > >one culture or another, or even most of them.
> > >
> > >Although, you don't hear much about 17.
> >
> > Doubtlessly due to the machinations of the Freemasons and the Elders
> > of Zion.
> >
>
> 23... I thought the mystical nature of 13 also had something to do with each
> season being approx 13 weeks in length... thirteen tarot cards...of course
> thirteen x 38461.538461538461538461538
> 4615385 is the number of the majority that elected al gore this year, but
> hey if i wanted smoke blown up my ass id be at home with some cigarettes and
> a short length of hose
>
--
Jane
'A thought for the day is more than most people can handle.'
Matthew Hackell
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:17:21 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> > <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > <mystical signifigance of 13>
> > >It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> > >one culture or another, or even most of them.
Every integer from 1 to 13 is magic in some way. People apparently got
bored at 14.
--
Matt
Poetry is the continuation of warfare by other means.
Michael Cook, NES 333
Matthew Hackell
Summary of study:
"Subject A, pick a random number."
"Seventeen"
"Interesting. Next!"
"Subject B, pick..."
Matthew Hackell
>
> "Ryan Klippenstine" <ry...@westman.wave.ca> wrote in message
> news:3a64beef...@news.westman.wave.ca...
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:17:21 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> > <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > <mystical signifigance of 13>
> >
> > >It's a low prime. Each of the low primes are represented as "magic" in
> > >one culture or another, or even most of them.
> > >
> > >Although, you don't hear much about 17.
> >
> > Doubtlessly due to the machinations of the Freemasons and the Elders
> > of Zion.
>
> 23...
That's why they make all that noise about 17...so you won't even THINK
about noticing 23. The conspiracy runs deeply, my friends.
Matthew Hackell
[snip]
> Thirteen tarot cards? Since when.
Almost every tarot deck has thirteen cards. Many have more.
David Chapman
news:MPG.14cfc2f7d...@news.princeton.edu...
> From the book of J. Cocker:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Thirteen tarot cards? Since when.
>
> Almost every tarot deck has thirteen cards. Many have more.
He's possibly thinking of the number of cards in each Lesser Arcana
suit - in which case he's *still* wrong, because each suit of the
Lesser Arcana has *fourteen* cards.
--
Where are all the good men dead?
In the heart, or in the head?
Adam Benedict Canning
Dave OHearn wrote:
>
> Lamoracke (gen...@gengel.freeserve.co.uk) wrote:
> > Um, I gotta say. Terry Goodkind's characters have endearing struggles?
> > Gsus. You gotta be kidding me. It reads like this. Filler - filler -more
> > filler - porno rape scene - filler filler end of book. Sound familiar?
> > That was his first book. Wizards First Rule.
>
> Wizard's First Rule had a lot more rape and other assorted nastiness than
> that. It was far too much to serve any purpose. Moreover, there was no
> adult consensual sex in the whole book, just rape, mutilation, torture,
> yuck, yuck, yuck, etc.
There is the scene where Dena asks Richard to show her how to make love
without using the aid of pain inducing magic items.
Though you might not count that one.
Adam
Dave OHearn
> Dave OHearn wrote:
> >
> > Wizard's First Rule had a lot more rape and other assorted nastiness than
> > that. It was far too much to serve any purpose. Moreover, there was no
> > adult consensual sex in the whole book, just rape, mutilation, torture,
> > yuck, yuck, yuck, etc.
>
> There is the scene where Dena asks Richard to show her how to make love
> without using the aid of pain inducing magic items.
>
> Though you might not count that one.
I'd forgotten that one. There's also a two- or three-sentence scene with
Zedd and Adie. If the nasty sex had been done in short snippits like
that, I think the book would have been much better.
--
Dave O'Hearn
Rafael Ortega
<mhac...@princeton.edu> wrote:
>Every integer from 1 to 13 is magic in some way. People apparently got
>bored at 14.
Perhaps they ran out of appendages to count with.
Rafael
David Scotton
> Paul Miller <pa...@fxtech.com> wrote:
>
> > Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
> > best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
> > Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole". Did Terry not answer
> > your fan mail when you were a kid or something? It sounds like you have
> > issues.
>
> I read a couple of his books that my husband had laying around the
> house (His mom cleaned out his room and gave us all his old books)
> and, Wow, the Shannara books are bad. Really, amazingly bad. Of
> course, the one I read was the one where the grandkids (or
> something like that) run off to kill an evil book.
That one is BY FAR the worst in the series. I may be biased and
nostalgic because I started reading his books when I was 11, but I
actually like most of Terry Brooks' stuff pretty well.
--
David K. Scotton <dsco...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> | UIN:3595734
"The decline of modern physics began with the particle accelerator. The
particle accelerator is a device that turns your taxes into a small
beam of subatomic particles." - Tom Weller, _Science Made Stupid_
The Great Gray Skwid
> The Great Gray Skwid says...
> > We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > Well.
> > That was random.
> Thank you. I try.
Wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose?
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"The Capslock key. The crayons of the internet" -- The Owen
The Great Gray Skwid
whispered:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:50:13 GMT, mha...@Io.NANC.com said:
> > Paul Miller <pa...@fxtech.com> wrote:
> > > Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
> > > best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
> > > Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole". Did Terry not answer
> > > your fan mail when you were a kid or something? It sounds like you have
> > > issues.
> > I read a couple of his books that my husband had laying around the
> > house (His mom cleaned out his room and gave us all his old books)
> > and, Wow, the Shannara books are bad. Really, amazingly bad. Of
> > course, the one I read was the one where the grandkids (or
> > something like that) run off to kill an evil book.
> That one is BY FAR the worst in the series. I may be biased and
> nostalgic because I started reading his books when I was 11, but I
> actually like most of Terry Brooks' stuff pretty well.
The best book he's ever written was Elfstones of Shannara. I feel no
compunction about recommending it to just about anyone. The rest of the
Shannara books are largely crap, and only the first of the MKFS:S novels
are at all tolerable. I will admit that I haven't read the latest
Shannara series, the 5th of the MKFS:S books, or any of his new series
(which also looks like unadulterated crap).
All that being said, he was my favorite author when I was 10. He writes
well for juveniles, but I think he should mainly be shelved in the young
adults section of the scifi rack.
Gary Greenbaum
ordering 13 bells to celebrate victory (whose victory, by the way, is
not stated). This doesn't seem to make obvious sense. A ring of bells
usually is up to eight bells. I'm not a musician, and most of my knowledge
of bells comes from Sayer's THE NINE TAILORS, but the fact
that she has ordered, no more or less, than thirteen, makes me wonder
if--perhaps they will be secretly dedicated, one to each Chosen. Suroth
may be thinking ahead to after the Great Lord's victory, as well.
Gary Greenbaum
Rachel Rosenblum
> We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > The Great Gray Skwid says...
> > > We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> <snippage>
> > > Well.
> > > That was random.
> > Thank you. I try.
>
> Wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose?
>
Depends on what I'm trying for. I'm just trying for well, um, nothing
much actually. So, if it comes out random then that is something.
But, I'm still trying.
--
Rachel
The Great Gray Skwid
But don't you see?
There is no try, only do.
Just ask Tim Lieder.
Rachel Rosenblum
> We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > The Great Gray Skwid says...
> > > We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > > > The Great Gray Skwid says...
> > > > > We leaned closer as Rachel Rosenblum <araf...@hotmail.com> whispered:
> > > <snippage>
> > > > > Well.
> > > > > That was random.
> > > > Thank you. I try.
> > > Wouldn't that sort of defeat the purpose?
> > Depends on what I'm trying for. I'm just trying for well, um, nothing
> > much actually. So, if it comes out random then that is something.
> > But, I'm still trying.
>
> But don't you see?
Yes, but I have to wear glasses when I'm driving. I'm near sighted in
one eye.
> There is no try, only do.
But, do what? Now, that is the question.
> Just ask Tim Lieder.
I'd rather not, if that's ok with you.
--
Rachel
Vince
As a former campanologist (bell ringer, no sniggering please), a set of
bells can be any number.
From experience most are sets of six, though four isn't unheard of. On
the maximum scale I think twenty four was the most I'd ever heard.
Eight is a reasonably common number, are ten and twelve.
For the most part though they are sets of EVEN numbers, because it
makes change ringing (the music rather than scales) easier.
Granted the methods of change ringing are pretty archaic and obtuse, so
the ringers in randland almost certainly don't use the same systems.
However the mechanics of ringing multiple bells in sequence and then
changing that sequence between peals is such that an even number is
best.
SO, from the perspective of a bell ringer, thirteen is a really odd
number to choose unless it has some other particular significance (13
Forsaken).
Vince
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
tbird...@my-deja.com
To be quite honest, Jordan's efforts at the moment are boring me to
death. At least the Shannara series gets me "page-turning" within the
first few pages, as opposed to having to trawl mindlessly through the
first half of the book (Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart).
Everything up to Fires of Heaven was great. Now, however, it seems to
be dragging on a bit long. OK, you can say the same about Shannara, but
even now, 8 years after I started reading it, at least Brooks's writing
warrants him carrying on.
His character and plot developments move much quicker than Jordan's and
that's what keeps me interested
Shaun
wrote:
> Terry Brooks introduced me to hard fantasy with Sword of Shannara. The
> best I've found since is Jordan. It's hard to believe you can revere
> Jordan and think Brooks "sucks like a black hole". Did Terry not answer
> your fan mail when you were a kid or something? It sounds like you have
> issues.
Other than the fact that "Sword of Shannara" was a shortened rewrite
of LotR, you mean? I read Rings for the first time right before I
read Sword. It was like reading the same thing twice, only the second
version was published by Reader's Digest and left most of the good
bits out. It was glaringly obvious to me. I was about 10 years old.
Gu(2.1.2b) C "Branson IV" HX L:47 DL:2250' A+ R++ Sp w:Chainsword
Gu/Z(A/Ey) D/W/Tk H- D- c-- f- PV+ s- !TT d p M+
C- S- I So B ac GHB+ SQ+ RQ+ V