Romanda, an unusual choice Sitter
Richard G. Rius
had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
First, a Sitter does not generally leave her seat then sit again. The
exception seems to be the Ajah returning a Sitter after the Amyrlin has
removed her (ala Joline). First Reasoner Ferane is one example of the
general rule. She had recently been a Sitter and stepped in for Magla.
First Weaver Suana is an even better example. This from the FAQ: "she
also had a very lengthy tenure as a Sitter in the past. Apparently,
that's 'just not done.' "
Romanda is a past Sitter and had a "lengthy tenure as a Sitter in the
past." Egwene's POV, "Before resigning to go into a country retreat, as
many sisters did in age, Romanda had held a chair for the Yellow so long
that some said she had had as much power as any Amyrlin she sat under.
Being chosen to sit a second time was nearly unheard of, but Romanda was
not one to let power reside anywhere outside her own hands if she could
manage." ACOS: Ch. 12, A Morning of Victory, p. 309 (paperback).
Thus, Romanda is an odd-choice Sitter because of her previous service--a
unique type in Salidar.
--
Rich
Richard Boye'
>
> I had in my notes that Romanda was an unusual choice Sitter because she
> had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
> I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
From de Faq:
"What About Romanda?
"And some of you are thinking, "Hey, what about Romanda? She's
appropriate as a Sitter too!" Yes, that's true, Romanda throws this
grand scheme off, unless one considers that the Powers that Be (if they
be orchestrating things) couldn't have planned on Romanda coming out of
retirement and joining the rebels. In that sense, Romanda is also an
"odd choice," or at least an "unexpected choice."
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
J.Hamby
> I had in my notes that Romanda was an unusual choice Sitter because she
> had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
> I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
>
> First, a Sitter does not generally leave her seat then sit again. The
> exception seems to be the Ajah returning a Sitter after the Amyrlin has
> removed her (ala Joline). First Reasoner Ferane is one example of the
> general rule. She had recently been a Sitter and stepped in for Magla.
> First Weaver Suana is an even better example. This from the FAQ: "she
> also had a very lengthy tenure as a Sitter in the past. Apparently,
> that's 'just not done.' "
First of all, Magla is Yellow, Ferane is White. It was Suana who
filled Magla's vacated seat in Elaida's Hall. Ferane took Saroiya's place.
>
> Romanda is a past Sitter and had a "lengthy tenure as a Sitter in the
> past." Egwene's POV, "Before resigning to go into a country retreat, as
> many sisters did in age, Romanda had held a chair for the Yellow so long
> that some said she had had as much power as any Amyrlin she sat under.
> Being chosen to sit a second time was nearly unheard of, but Romanda was
> not one to let power reside anywhere outside her own hands if she could
> manage." ACOS: Ch. 12, A Morning of Victory, p. 309 (paperback).
>
> Thus, Romanda is an odd-choice Sitter because of her previous service--a
> unique type in Salidar.
The point about Romanda is that is not a _choice_. It is rather apparent
that Romanda was not chosen to be Amyrlin by anyone but herself. And it
also seems evident during Egwene's election by the Hall, that Romanda
came out of retirement and re-entry into the Hall (albeit the rebel one)
was due to her own ambition. Romanda saw a chance at being Amyrlin finally.
Or at least being a power-broker again, because Jordan has never really
fully explained why a woman who seems intent on doing everything possible
to hamstring the overthrowing of Elaida (even prior to Egwene's election)
could also picture herself as a successful anti-Amyrlin. Of course
the same goes for Lelaine, but Lelaine at least had personal Ajah-politics
as a motivator.
So while Suana (for the Yellow) and Ferane (for the White) basically pulled
a similar stunt as Romanda did, neither did so out of personal ambition
from what we have seen. And everything does point to these two re-taking
a seat in the Hall as being tied to the other Sitters in Elaida's Hall that
are too young.
---
JSH
primeti...@yahoo.com
Frankly, it doesn't have to be all that mysterious. It could be as
simple as her coming out of retirement due to the rather extreme
circumstances. I mean the Dragon Reborn is stomping around, the
Tower is broken, and a the SAS are floundering. Why exactly would
she stay in retirement? I mean even Cadsuane who's apparently feels
she's got one foot in the grave came out of retirement, why wouldn't
another experienced sister?
Richard G. Rius
> Richard G. Rius wrote:
> >
> > I had in my notes that Romanda was an unusual choice Sitter because she
> > had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
> > I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
>
> Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
>
> From de Faq:
>
> "What About Romanda?
>
> "And some of you are thinking, "Hey, what about Romanda? She's
> appropriate as a Sitter too!" Yes, that's true, Romanda throws this
> grand scheme off, unless one considers that the Powers that Be (if they
> be orchestrating things) couldn't have planned on Romanda coming out of
> retirement and joining the rebels. In that sense, Romanda is also an
> "odd choice," or at least an "unexpected choice."
>
The point made in the FAQ is different. The proposition responded to is
that Romanda is a normal choice because she is old enough. The response
in the FAQ is that she is an odd or unexpected choice because she was in
retirement.
My point is that she used to be a Sitter. Coming back to the Hall is
unusual. In addition to the comment I quoted from the FAQ in my initial
post, the ACOS Glossary entry for "Hall of the Tower, the" flat out says
that generally Sitters do not leave and come back, even when they are
asked to leave by the Amyrlin.
Richard Boye'
>
> In article <4083C6...@webspan.net>, wa...@webspan.net says...
> > Richard G. Rius wrote:
> > >
> > > I had in my notes that Romanda was an unusual choice Sitter because she
> > > had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
> > > I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
> >
> > Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?
> >
> > From de Faq:
> >
> > "What About Romanda?
> >
> > "And some of you are thinking, "Hey, what about Romanda? She's
> > appropriate as a Sitter too!" Yes, that's true, Romanda throws this
> > grand scheme off, unless one considers that the Powers that Be (if they
> > be orchestrating things) couldn't have planned on Romanda coming out of
> > retirement and joining the rebels. In that sense, Romanda is also an
> > "odd choice," or at least an "unexpected choice."
> >
>
> The point made in the FAQ is different. The proposition responded to is
> that Romanda is a normal choice because she is old enough. The response
> in the FAQ is that she is an odd or unexpected choice because she was in
> retirement.
Um, I wrote that and I know what the points are. Romanda is an "odd
choice" in that she left the Tower (and by extension her seat in the
Hall) and then came and took it back. Odd for that, not odd for her age.
And also, it deserves to be noted that no one orchestrated Romanda's
placement in the Hall - she did it for herself and out of personal
ambition.
Richard G. Rius
jha...@cub.kcnet.org says...
The point I think you are missing is that the young sitters in Salidar
and the young and return Sitters in the Tower will be fairly easy to
shunt aside when the Tower mends. Whatever her reason for joining the
Hall, Romanda is in this position, too. Was it her unexpected presence,
rather than her previous service, that made her odd, she would have been
difficult to push away.
We don't know who, aside from the unaligned Heads of Ajah, knows what is
going on. It is most likely that only Original Sitters in Salidar (aside
from Janya) know. I say this because, to me, the behaviour outlined in
the FAQ suggests that those five know something. We know the Original
Sitters in the Tower, or at least some of them don't know because they
feel the need to figure out what the hell is going on with the Head of
Ajah collusion and with the odd Sitter selection practices. If they
don't know, the new Sitters in Salidar probably don't know. For that
reason, Romanda will find herself in the same basic position as all of
the rest of the weird sitters.
Richard G. Rius
primeti...@yahoo.com says...
I am not asking why she came out of retirement. I am saying that she is
an odd-choice Sitter. She is no less odd than the young Sitters in
either Hall or the return Sitters in the Tower. I don't care why Romanda
came out of retirement (unless she is BA and it has something to do with
that). I will note that the idea that she was drawn from retirement
because the SAS are floundering is kind of funny. When has she done
anything but try to dither and delay?
Loial
While we're on the subject of odd sitter choices, I've been wondering
about something since rereading the FAQ. Maybe I'm being a total
idiot here, but... the FAQ has Elaida being a sitter pre-Siuan being
stripped. Where did it ever say that she was? I've read the series
several times, and except for Egwene's Accepted testing, I don't ever
recall anything indicating that Elaida was ever a sitter. IIRC,
Elaida took up residence in Andor after a relatively short time as an
AS. Since sitters have generally been AS for a long time, it's
logical that Elaida probably was not a sitter before she went to
Andor, and I don't recall ever seeing anything saying that she was
selected a sitter AFTER she returned.
Am I missing something... I've never seen the Guide aka BBoBA, perhaps
in there?
Richard Boye'
>
> In article <1d5547a3.04041...@posting.google.com>,
> primeti...@yahoo.com says...
> > > Thus, Romanda is an odd-choice Sitter because of her previous service--a
> > > unique type in Salidar.
> >
> > Frankly, it doesn't have to be all that mysterious. It could be as
> > simple as her coming out of retirement due to the rather extreme
> > circumstances. I mean the Dragon Reborn is stomping around, the
> > Tower is broken, and a the SAS are floundering. Why exactly would
> > she stay in retirement? I mean even Cadsuane who's apparently feels
> > she's got one foot in the grave came out of retirement, why wouldn't
> > another experienced sister?
> I am not asking why she came out of retirement. I am saying that she is
> an odd-choice Sitter. She is no less odd than the young Sitters in
> either Hall or the return Sitters in the Tower. I don't care why Romanda
> came out of retirement (unless she is BA and it has something to do with
> that).
She came out retirement because she saw the chance, albeit a thin one,
to be the counter-Amyrlin. It was being passed over years ago that
prompted to take her toys and go into retirement. She liked power; she,
as the senior Yellow and the most powerful one, at that, could pretty
much write her own ticket. No one in Salidar forced or installed her
into the Hall - she did by fiat. None of the other Yellows could quash
her, either.
You'll note that the qualifications that made Egwene a not-totally
insane candidate, that is strong in the power and not in residence in
the Tower during the coup (thus giving some ostensible claim at
neutrality) apply also to Romanda. She made a naked grab at power, and
was checkmated by Suian.
> I will note that the idea that she was drawn from retirement
> because the SAS are floundering is kind of funny. When has she done
> anything but try to dither and delay?
She was drawn to the rebels, one assumes out a combination of
disapproval for the manner in which Suian was deposed and Elaida
installed but also sheer personal ambition.
What have the end result of making the rebellion dither and delay are
actually Romanda's attempts at wielding power. It's just that her power
is blocked by Lelaine's equal influence. End result - inaction.
Gridlock, if you will.
Richard Boye'
>
> Richard G. Rius <rr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1aecf532d...@news.cwru.edu>...
[...]
> While we're on the subject of odd sitter choices, I've been wondering
> about something since rereading the FAQ. Maybe I'm being a total
> idiot here, but... the FAQ has Elaida being a sitter pre-Siuan being
> stripped. Where did it ever say that she was? I've read the series
> several times, and except for Egwene's Accepted testing, I don't ever
> recall anything indicating that Elaida was ever a sitter. IIRC,
> Elaida took up residence in Andor after a relatively short time as an
> AS. Since sitters have generally been AS for a long time, it's
> logical that Elaida probably was not a sitter before she went to
> Andor, and I don't recall ever seeing anything saying that she was
> selected a sitter AFTER she returned.
Well, as soon as Elaida was given da boot by Morgase, she quickly seized
on the Hall as another avenue for her lust for power. Elaida as the
strongest Red in the entire sisterhood could pretty much bully her way
into the Hall (unless Galina stopped it).
The most clear indication that Elaida took a seat in ...rumages,
rumages.....TSR - Chapter 47, The Truth of a Viewing, in which Suian is
thinking on how easy it was that the Hall unanimously accepted her call
for the Tower to acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn, including
Elaida.
Who Elaida replaced in the Tower is currently unknown - we know that
Teslyn and Pevara had been in the Hall for years. Either the Red Sitter
had just dropped dead and Elaida's return from Caemlyn was markedly
timely, or she gave someone the boot.
Javindra and Duhara were "new" Sitters, who took the place of either
Teslyn (who was exlied) and Elaida when she was raised. It is possible
that either Duhara (whom we know now to have been a former Keeper) or
Javindra had the Seat that Elaida briefly occupied, and then reclaimed
it once Elaida was Amyrlinized. If anthing, I'd bet it was Duhara, and
Javindra is the total newcomer.
Jean Dufresne
>
> While we're on the subject of odd sitter choices, I've been wondering
> about something since rereading the FAQ. Maybe I'm being a total
> idiot here, but... the FAQ has Elaida being a sitter pre-Siuan being
> stripped. Where did it ever say that she was? I've read the series
> several times, and except for Egwene's Accepted testing, I don't ever
> recall anything indicating that Elaida was ever a sitter. IIRC,
> Elaida took up residence in Andor after a relatively short time as an
> AS. Since sitters have generally been AS for a long time, it's
> logical that Elaida probably was not a sitter before she went to
> Andor, and I don't recall ever seeing anything saying that she was
> selected a sitter AFTER she returned.
>
> Am I missing something...
We know Elaida was a Sitter from Siuan's PoV in chapter 47 of TSR.
Likely, Siuan refers to the meeting of the Hall that took place 16 days
earlier. So, Elaida was a Sitter for a very short period of time during
the late spring of the year 999 NE. She must have become a Sitter
somewhere between the day she took residence in the Tower and the day
the Hall acknowledged the Dragon Reborn. This covers a period of
approximately three months. If Elaida became Sitter near the end of
this period, it was not long after Rand took Tear. She may have filled
a vacancy created by a Red Sitter's resignation or death. (It can be
noted that two AS were killed at a convenient time when Mazrim Taim
escaped. I don't think we know their names or Ajah, but there is
always some posssiblity that one of them had been a Red Sitter, thus
creating the vacancy just at the right time for Elaida to take her seat
and attend her first meeting of the Hall.)
--
Jean
Richard Boye'
>
> In article <cbdd023e.0404...@posting.google.com>,
> jha...@cub.kcnet.org says...
> > Richard G. Rius <rr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1aecf532d...@news.cwru.edu>...
> > > I had in my notes that Romanda was an unusual choice Sitter because she
> > > had been a Sitter before. Since the FAQ said nothing of this, I decided
> > > I was probably wrong. Now I am not so sure.
> > The point about Romanda is that is not a _choice_. It is rather apparent
> > that Romanda was not chosen to be Amyrlin by anyone but herself. And it
> > also seems evident during Egwene's election by the Hall, that Romanda
> > came out of retirement and re-entry into the Hall (albeit the rebel one)
> > was due to her own ambition. Romanda saw a chance at being Amyrlin finally.
> > Or at least being a power-broker again, because Jordan has never really
> > fully explained why a woman who seems intent on doing everything possible
> > to hamstring the overthrowing of Elaida (even prior to Egwene's election)
> > could also picture herself as a successful anti-Amyrlin. Of course
> > the same goes for Lelaine, but Lelaine at least had personal Ajah-politics
> > as a motivator.
> >
> > So while Suana (for the Yellow) and Ferane (for the White) basically pulled
> > a similar stunt as Romanda did, neither did so out of personal ambition
> > from what we have seen. And everything does point to these two re-taking
> > a seat in the Hall as being tied to the other Sitters in Elaida's Hall that
> > are too young.
> The point I think you are missing is that the young sitters in Salidar
> and the young and return Sitters in the Tower will be fairly easy to
> shunt aside when the Tower mends. Whatever her reason for joining the
> Hall, Romanda is in this position, too. Was it her unexpected presence,
> rather than her previous service, that made her odd, she would have been
> difficult to push away.
It is evidently clear that Romanda is anomaly. If there is an Ajah Head
conspiracy, they did not take into consideration the redoubtable Romanda
Cassin claiming pride of place in the rebel Yellows, nor could they
have. It is unheard of for a retired Sitter to come back and reclaim her
seat. However, it is noted in the FAQ that her installation was
unorthodox in that she selected herself.
However, the key to the mystery is the wierd Sitters in Salidar are "too
young." Romanda isn't. Someone picked all those too young Sitters for a
reason with Romanda skewing the trend because she is in a unique
situation.
If and when the Halls (and Towers) merge, Suana Dragand will have her
hands full with Romanda because she *cannot* be easily dismissed without
trampling layers of tradition and seniority. Romanda's presence in the
rebel Hall was clearly not engineered by anyone but herself. Therefore,
she is outside the trend and in all liklihood outside the Ajah Head
Conspiracy.
In the insane Aes Sedai prestige calculation dick-size wars, one doesn't
lose clout for being in Romanda's position. There are no points
substracted for coming out of retirement. One does not claim that Suana
and Ferane will be shoved aside because their positioning of themselves
makes them wierd. Rather, they will then gracefully bow out (because
within their own Ajahs, they reign supreme) and allow Magla and Saroiya
to resume their seats. They won't be shunted because the only person who
has the theorectical authority to "shunt" them would be the Amyrlin.
This appears to be how the First Reasoner and the First Weaver thought
to handle the situation. The Green Captain-General, Gray Head Clerk and
Head of the Brown Council decided to install some junior Sitters
instead, rather than Adelorna, Serancha and Jesse taking the seats of
the absent Sitters. (all except Janya, who seems to have been replaced
by the acceptable and normal Shevan).
> It is most likely that only Original Sitters in Salidar (aside
> from Janya) know. I say this because, to me, the behaviour outlined in
> the FAQ suggests that those five know something. We know the Original
> Sitters in the Tower, or at least some of them don't know because they
> feel the need to figure out what the hell is going on with the Head of
> Ajah collusion and with the odd Sitter selection practices. If they
> don't know, the new Sitters in Salidar probably don't know. For that
> reason, Romanda will find herself in the same basic position as all of
> the rest of the weird sitters.
I don't know what your point is.
Richard Boye'
Or Elaida, as the most puissant Red, could simply have forced her will
on the Reds and made her way into the Hall. I now think that she may
have forced Duhara out of her chair (of the two 'new' Sitters in the
Tower Duhara seems to have been the more worthy - she's a former
Keeper), and then once Elaida ensconced in the Amyrlin Seat, resumed her
Seat in the Hall.
J.Hamby
[I have no idea what to snip or not due to the odd response format;
so I am leaving it all in for now]
>
> The point I think you are missing is that the young sitters in Salidar
> and the young and return Sitters in the Tower will be fairly easy to
> shunt aside when the Tower mends.
Actually I have not missed this 'point' but your concern is
most touching.
> Whatever her reason for joining the
> Hall, Romanda is in this position, too. Was it her unexpected presence,
> rather than her previous service, that made her odd, she would have been
> difficult to push away.
Actually by law, every single one of these Sitters is in an untenable
position vis-a-vis a merge. If the notion exists that Elaida's Hall
is not illegal in its entirety, than it is not illegal at all. And
therefore the rebel Hall is just that and their heads should make
nice gatepost adornments.
However the real point is that Romanda was not chosen. Therefore
her 'oddity' is not an issue. She is not part of the plan to
merge and set aside interim Sitters of unusual age or cirsumstance.
Assuming of course that the 'too young' pattern turns out to be
such a plan.
>
> We don't know who, aside from the unaligned Heads of Ajah, knows what is
> going on. It is most likely that only Original Sitters in Salidar (aside
> from Janya) know. I say this because, to me, the behaviour outlined in
> the FAQ suggests that those five know something. We know the Original
> Sitters in the Tower, or at least some of them don't know because they
> feel the need to figure out what the hell is going on with the Head of
> Ajah collusion and with the odd Sitter selection practices. If they
> don't know, the new Sitters in Salidar probably don't know. For that
> reason, Romanda will find herself in the same basic position as all of
> the rest of the weird sitters.
And so, by your logic, will Janya. Wherein lies her oddity that makes
her inclusion relevant? For that matter, Lelaine, Lyrelle and Moria
also face an uncertain future if the Halls merge as the theory suggests
since it is unclear whether the Blues are included in this possible merge.
Considering the Blues size and the blame still attached via Siuan, the
whole Blue Ajah may be a soft negotiating point.
The point is, Romanda's history is not relevant to the whole
'too young' Sitters and the newly introduced oddness in Elaida's
Hall. It is quite clear that Romanda is ambitious and, though retired,
saw her chance. She was not chosen. She put herself in the Sitter's
chair because she truly thought this was her chance. The eight chosen
in Salidar are suggested to be duped benchwarmers. The key to this theory
is that they were chosen, presumably without their knowledge. Quite
adifferent story than Romanda using the rebellion as a chance for a
comeback.
---
JSH
Johan Gustafsson
> Or Elaida, as the most puissant Red, could simply have forced her will
> on the Reds and made her way into the Hall. I now think that she may
> have forced Duhara out of her chair (of the two 'new' Sitters in the
> Tower Duhara seems to have been the more worthy - she's a former
> Keeper), and then once Elaida ensconced in the Amyrlin Seat, resumed her
> Seat in the Hall.
By the way, section 2.4.11 of the FAQ still claims Jarna Malari rather
than Duhara was Keeper to Sierin Vayu.
--
Johan Gustafsson *** j...@e-bostad.net
Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
primeti...@yahoo.com
>
> I am not asking why she came out of retirement. I am saying that she is
> an odd-choice Sitter. She is no less odd than the young Sitters in
> either Hall or the return Sitters in the Tower.
She's an odd choice in that she wouldn't ordinarily hold the seat.
However she's hardly as odd a choice because there's a very good
explanation for her holding her seat. This is a case of not seeing
the forest for all the damn trees.
> I don't care why Romanda came out of retirement (unless she is BA and it has > something to do with that). I will note that the idea that she was drawn
> from retirement because the SAS are floundering is kind of funny. When has
> she done anything but try to dither and delay?
She hasn't really been trying to dither or delay so much as build up
her own power. I doubt if she was the power she would delay. The
problem is she's constantly being checked by the other factions.
J.Hamby
> Richard Boye' wrote:
>
> > Or Elaida, as the most puissant Red, could simply have forced her will
> > on the Reds and made her way into the Hall. I now think that she may
> > have forced Duhara out of her chair (of the two 'new' Sitters in the
> > Tower Duhara seems to have been the more worthy - she's a former
> > Keeper), and then once Elaida ensconced in the Amyrlin Seat, resumed her
> > Seat in the Hall.
>
> By the way, section 2.4.11 of the FAQ still claims Jarna Malari rather
> than Duhara was Keeper to Sierin Vayu.
Something which never should have been put in in the first place.
I'm just saying...
---
JSH
J.Hamby
She also was likely accepted without a blink because she opposed
Lelaine. Half the rebels still seem to hold Siuan to blame for
the Tower break. And the Blues likely were low Ajah on the totem
pole in Salidar with that half (those that weren't Blue themselves).
Without Romanda, Lelaine, and the Blues, would have held power in the
Hall due to seniority and standing in the OP. Romanda was the only
possible person to balance Lelaine.
>
>
> > I will note that the idea that she was drawn from retirement
> > because the SAS are floundering is kind of funny. When has she done
> > anything but try to dither and delay?
>
> She was drawn to the rebels, one assumes out a combination of
> disapproval for the manner in which Suian was deposed and Elaida
> installed but also sheer personal ambition.
>
I think it likely that it was sheer ambition. By the time Romanda
heard of the Tower split there was already an Amyrlin in office
in the White Tower. That left the rebels.
As I stated earlier, Romanda is a prime example of the weakness of
Jordan's whole 'too young' Sitter conspiracy. Whether Romanda
saw attaching herself to the rebels and then being the power-broker
who returned the errant bucn en masse as a ticket back to power or
whether she saw a chance at the stole right then; she clearly made
a grab for power that was either sink or swim. With sink being stilling
and a possible head removal.
> What have the end result of making the rebellion dither and delay are
> actually Romanda's attempts at wielding power. It's just that her power
> is blocked by Lelaine's equal influence. End result - inaction.
> Gridlock, if you will.
Also Romanda has time on her hands. The Blues don't. Something Jordan
apparently realized when halfway through _TPOD_ and allowed Moria
to finally verbally beat some sense into Lelaine. The inaction plays into
Romanda's hands as once the Hall is established the lines of rebellion are
clear. Well clear until Jordan tries to introduce this whole Ajah heads
in the Tower pulling the strings nonsense. But back before that idea
was introduced, once a Hall was established, there was no looking
back for the rebels. The gauntlet was tossed. So Romanda could sit
back and rebel at her leisure. The whole time the Blue's cause got
weaker and weaker. No doubt, had Siuan not tossed the nice little
Logain lie into the pot, Romanda likely saw the Blues sacrificed
and herself as nominal leader of the rebels. But that was back when
Jordan was writing and did not have his head up his ass spending more
time revealing plotpoints via questionaire websites than in the books
themselves.
---
JSH
J.Hamby
> Loial wrote:
> >
> > Richard G. Rius <rr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1aecf532d...@news.cwru.edu>...
>
> [...]
>
>
> > While we're on the subject of odd sitter choices, I've been wondering
> > about something since rereading the FAQ. Maybe I'm being a total
> > idiot here, but... the FAQ has Elaida being a sitter pre-Siuan being
> > stripped. Where did it ever say that she was? I've read the series
> > several times, and except for Egwene's Accepted testing, I don't ever
> > recall anything indicating that Elaida was ever a sitter. IIRC,
> > Elaida took up residence in Andor after a relatively short time as an
> > AS. Since sitters have generally been AS for a long time, it's
> > logical that Elaida probably was not a sitter before she went to
> > Andor, and I don't recall ever seeing anything saying that she was
> > selected a sitter AFTER she returned.
>
> Well, as soon as Elaida was given da boot by Morgase, she quickly seized
> on the Hall as another avenue for her lust for power. Elaida as the
> strongest Red in the entire sisterhood could pretty much bully her way
> into the Hall (unless Galina stopped it).
>
> The most clear indication that Elaida took a seat in ...rumages,
> rumages.....TSR - Chapter 47, The Truth of a Viewing, in which Suian is
> thinking on how easy it was that the Hall unanimously accepted her call
> for the Tower to acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn, including
> Elaida.
>
a power play as soon as Elaida arrived in Tar Valon. The vote
in the Hall concerning the make-up of the Fal Dara delegation
might be a clue. With Talene and the other BA in the Hall
(which might mean that Sedore is BA since Greens and Yellows led
that particular charge, didn't they?) publicly (at least in the Hall)
undermining Siuan's authority and honor as Amyrlin (as well as get
their hooks in Moiraine), Galina gives Elaida the reins to go
after Siuan on another angle. Using Elaida's ambition and
the Red Ajah's desire to bring down the Blue paid off in even
greater dividends than the BA might have expected. Then again,
Alviarin was conveniently handy for Elaida to vent to wasn't she?
> Who Elaida replaced in the Tower is currently unknown - we know that
> Teslyn and Pevara had been in the Hall for years. Either the Red Sitter
> had just dropped dead and Elaida's return from Caemlyn was markedly
> timely, or she gave someone the boot.
>
> Javindra and Duhara were "new" Sitters, who took the place of either
> Teslyn (who was exlied) and Elaida when she was raised. It is possible
> that either Duhara (whom we know now to have been a former Keeper) or
> Javindra had the Seat that Elaida briefly occupied, and then reclaimed
> it once Elaida was Amyrlinized. If anthing, I'd bet it was Duhara, and
> Javindra is the total newcomer.
Javindhra is the total newcomer. Duhara is likelier of the two,
I agree.*
Elaida as Sitter raises some interesting issues. First, of course,
is why her elevation did not raise eyebrows. Especially if she
supplanted an in-office Sitter and not merely replace a dead one.
Her strength makes her a likely candidate, but her age should
be an issue. Her elevation also makes the issue of 'odd choice'
Sitters a bit forced, at least in the Tower. Seaine's suspicions
seem much more contrived when, right before the split, there were
two Sitters younger than normal and one, Elaida, whose elevation
could have been extremely odd. Logic, Seaine's forte by the way,
would say that Elaida's odd elevation followed by the fall of Siuan,
would be a reasonable rejoinder to five unusual elevations following
a Tower split and open rebellion complete with rival Hall. Still,
the fact there already is a Sitter younger than normal when Elaida takes
her own seat might mitigate any raised eyebrows a bit.
Second is why Siuan was not concerned that Elaida was suddenly
sitting in the Hall after the mess she tried to create about Moiraine's
association with Rand. Stupidity for the sake of plot progression I
guess.
*This sets a ping off on the BA-Radar for me. Duhara is Keeper
for Sierin. Great BA slot, especially since picking a Keeper
from another Ajah is considered incredibly rare. So rare that
until the disaster that is _NS_ redux, Alviarin's holding the
office is seen as this side of incredible. But it makes sense
if either Sierin is BA (I know, Chemsal's blather has most opposed
to this notion -- I still leave the door open). She would take
on a BA Keeper. Even if Sierin is not Ba, it makes sense that the
Ba would place someone in the Keeper's slot considering they know
the DR is alive and well somewhere.
It also makes sense that Duhara would more easily give up her seat
by Galina's orders. Not just obeying the Red Commandant, but also
the BA directive.
Conversely, Elaida's thoughts about how Duhara owed her position
in the Hall to her (Elaida), would seem a bit off if Duhara had
tenure. Also, Seaine should raise the issue of the reds having
Duhara as a former Sitter back in the slot. Even if it is just
seen as a minor blip due to Elaida's elevation.
---
JSH
Johan Gustafsson
It bugged me for quite some time, since I too went around thinking Jarna
was Sierin's Keeper. It took me a while to realize I got it from the FAQ
to begin with...
> I'm just saying...
Heh.
Richard Boye
Was that my own addition? If so, where the hell did I ever get that from?
--
RMB
wa...@webspan.net
Richard Boye'
>
> Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408496...@webspan.net>...
> > Loial wrote:
> > >
> > > Richard G. Rius <rr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1aecf532d...@news.cwru.edu>...
> >
> > [...]
> > The most clear indication that Elaida took a seat in ...rumages,
> > rumages.....TSR - Chapter 47, The Truth of a Viewing, in which Suian is
> > thinking on how easy it was that the Hall unanimously accepted her call
> > for the Tower to acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn, including
> > Elaida.
> >
> It is possible that Jordan was hinting at the BA, via the Reds, going for
> a power play as soon as Elaida arrived in Tar Valon. The vote
> in the Hall concerning the make-up of the Fal Dara delegation
> might be a clue. With Talene and the other BA in the Hall
> (which might mean that Sedore is BA since Greens and Yellows led
> that particular charge, didn't they?) publicly (at least in the Hall)
> undermining Siuan's authority and honor as Amyrlin (as well as get
> their hooks in Moiraine), Galina gives Elaida the reins to go
> after Siuan on another angle. Using Elaida's ambition and
> the Red Ajah's desire to bring down the Blue paid off in even
> greater dividends than the BA might have expected. Then again,
> Alviarin was conveniently handy for Elaida to vent to wasn't she?
The whole Tower schism was clearly, if not engineered by the BA, then
given a very strong push.
> > Javindra and Duhara were "new" Sitters, who took the place of either
> > Teslyn (who was exlied) and Elaida when she was raised. It is possible
> > that either Duhara (whom we know now to have been a former Keeper) or
> > Javindra had the Seat that Elaida briefly occupied, and then reclaimed
> > it once Elaida was Amyrlinized. If anthing, I'd bet it was Duhara, and
> > Javindra is the total newcomer.
>
> Javindhra is the total newcomer. Duhara is likelier of the two,
> I agree.*
If we think that either of them sat, was displaced, then resumed.
Which as you note down lower, seems unlikely.
> Elaida as Sitter raises some interesting issues. First, of course,
> is why her elevation did not raise eyebrows. Especially if she
> supplanted an in-office Sitter and not merely replace a dead one.
> Her strength makes her a likely candidate, but her age should
> be an issue.
Elaida can also Fortell and the Tower knows it. That gaves her even more
suasion.
> Her elevation also makes the issue of 'odd choice'
> Sitters a bit forced, at least in the Tower. Seaine's suspicions
> seem much more contrived when, right before the split, there were
> two Sitters younger than normal and one, Elaida, whose elevation
> could have been extremely odd.
But Seaine isn't looking at from that angle. Every once in a while, you
might get an unusual Sitter, and Elaida has other attributes that
compensate for her relative youth. Having said that, though, when Seaine
was picking through the situation, Elaida was no longer in the Hall.
Also, the Red Ajah didn't split, so Seaine isn't trying to analyze the
politics of their situation in light of the schism.
> Second is why Siuan was not concerned that Elaida was suddenly
> sitting in the Hall after the mess she tried to create about Moiraine's
> association with Rand. Stupidity for the sake of plot progression I
> guess.
Well, what can she do other than have her resign her Seat? The Reds
could have returned her anyway. Suian's inaction with respect to Elaida
doesn't really bother me. Suian had her eye on the bigger picture,
obviously, and missed all of the signs of the coming coup de tour.
Elaida and Alviarin conspiring, the blatant challenges from the
supposedly idealogical allied Greens, Danelle and her masons.
> It also makes sense that Duhara would more easily give up her seat
> by Galina's orders. Not just obeying the Red Commandant, but also
> the BA directive.
I prefer the title Generalisima.
> Conversely, Elaida's thoughts about how Duhara owed her position
> in the Hall to her (Elaida), would seem a bit off if Duhara had
> tenure. Also, Seaine should raise the issue of the reds having
> Duhara as a former Sitter back in the slot. Even if it is just
> seen as a minor blip due to Elaida's elevation.
This is true.
J.Hamby
> J.Hamby wrote:
> >
> > Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408496...@webspan.net>...
> > > Loial wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Richard G. Rius <rr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.1aecf532d...@news.cwru.edu>...
> > >
> > > [...]
>
> > > The most clear indication that Elaida took a seat in ...rumages,
> > > rumages.....TSR - Chapter 47, The Truth of a Viewing, in which Suian is
> > > thinking on how easy it was that the Hall unanimously accepted her call
> > > for the Tower to acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn, including
> > > Elaida.
> > >
> > It is possible that Jordan was hinting at the BA, via the Reds, going for
> > a power play as soon as Elaida arrived in Tar Valon. The vote
> > in the Hall concerning the make-up of the Fal Dara delegation
> > might be a clue. With Talene and the other BA in the Hall
> > (which might mean that Sedore is BA since Greens and Yellows led
> > that particular charge, didn't they?) publicly (at least in the Hall)
> > undermining Siuan's authority and honor as Amyrlin (as well as get
> > their hooks in Moiraine), Galina gives Elaida the reins to go
> > after Siuan on another angle. Using Elaida's ambition and
> > the Red Ajah's desire to bring down the Blue paid off in even
> > greater dividends than the BA might have expected. Then again,
> > Alviarin was conveniently handy for Elaida to vent to wasn't she?
>
> The whole Tower schism was clearly, if not engineered by the BA, then
> given a very strong push.
Well I always thought that it was given a strong push. However, this
bit of hindsight allows me to wonder if Jordan might not have originally
gone for engineered but tossed that by the wayside. Instead going for
the whole taken advantage of aspect that seems much clearer now.
>
> > > Javindra and Duhara were "new" Sitters, who took the place of either
> > > Teslyn (who was exlied) and Elaida when she was raised. It is possible
> > > that either Duhara (whom we know now to have been a former Keeper) or
> > > Javindra had the Seat that Elaida briefly occupied, and then reclaimed
> > > it once Elaida was Amyrlinized. If anthing, I'd bet it was Duhara, and
> > > Javindra is the total newcomer.
> >
> > Javindhra is the total newcomer. Duhara is likelier of the two,
> > I agree.*
>
> If we think that either of them sat, was displaced, then resumed.
>
> Which as you note down lower, seems unlikely.
Yet unlikley has never been something Jordan shies from. And
Duhara as Keeper in _NS_ may serve some greater purpose. Why not
that?
>
> > Elaida as Sitter raises some interesting issues. First, of course,
> > is why her elevation did not raise eyebrows. Especially if she
> > supplanted an in-office Sitter and not merely replace a dead one.
> > Her strength makes her a likely candidate, but her age should
> > be an issue.
>
> Elaida can also Fortell and the Tower knows it. That gaves her even more
> suasion.
Actually this makes sense. Alviarin is very wary of this ability;
perhaps not just of the ability but the weight it gives Elaida's
words whether Foretold or not.
>
> > Her elevation also makes the issue of 'odd choice'
> > Sitters a bit forced, at least in the Tower. Seaine's suspicions
> > seem much more contrived when, right before the split, there were
> > two Sitters younger than normal and one, Elaida, whose elevation
> > could have been extremely odd.
>
> But Seaine isn't looking at from that angle. Every once in a while, you
> might get an unusual Sitter, and Elaida has other attributes that
> compensate for her relative youth. Having said that, though, when Seaine
> was picking through the situation, Elaida was no longer in the Hall.
> Also, the Red Ajah didn't split, so Seaine isn't trying to analyze the
> politics of their situation in light of the schism.
It still makes the issue forced to me. Perhaps because Jordan
seems to be taking one of the most half-assed routes on the whole
Sitter issue. But my real point is that Seaine is up in arms
over an issue that makes sense only because we as readers know
about the issue in the Rebel Hall. Seaine apparently does not.
Only two hundred some women in the Hall makes for slim pickings.
So unusual choices for Sitter resulting in unusual times seems
well logical. Seaine never qualifies the oddness, whereas Siuan
does. And yet the oddness Seaine picks at is milder and leaves
out some rather important issues. Namely the Red and Joline.
Yes the Red have not split. But neither did the Blue. And yet
the Blue is explained. Elaida being made a Sitter and then becoming
Amyrlin should be an issue when looking at a Pattern in the Hall and
searching for the Bloody BA; of which Elaida is highly supsected
of being. I guess that is why Jordan playing sly with the ninth
too young Sitter in Salidar bugs. If someone thinks there is
a pattern, then any possible exceptions to the rule must be addressed.
Even Duhara being a former Keeper should have been addressed. Which
makes me suspect that he made that up for _NS-tacky-on_. Unless
the Hall gets lots of former Keepers taking up seats.
>
> > Second is why Siuan was not concerned that Elaida was suddenly
> > sitting in the Hall after the mess she tried to create about Moiraine's
> > association with Rand. Stupidity for the sake of plot progression I
> > guess.
>
> Well, what can she do other than have her resign her Seat? The Reds
> could have returned her anyway. Suian's inaction with respect to Elaida
> doesn't really bother me. Suian had her eye on the bigger picture,
> obviously, and missed all of the signs of the coming coup de tour.
> Elaida and Alviarin conspiring, the blatant challenges from the
> supposedly idealogical allied Greens, Danelle and her masons.
Let me re-phrase. At the time it made sense. But then Jordan
does his whole Siuan good with puzzles thing and _NS_ with Siuan
knowing about BA. I guess I just wish Jordan would go back and read
what he has published before he adds another layer to this mess.
But Elaida's addition to the Hall should have been a red (no pun I swear)
light flashing to some degree. Even if it was at the point that Elaida
stands in support of Siuan holding the news about Rand in Tear a secret.
Add to that, Siuan's knowledge of the BA and we don't even get
hindsight, really. Hindsight that should have been used (and
hinted at to us the readers) in Siuan's bid to keep the rebellion
going. But then what should I expect from a writer that keeps forgetting
that the Hall (including Elaida) is quite aware of the BA but then goes
into complete denial later on by aCoS? My bad.
>
> > It also makes sense that Duhara would more easily give up her seat
> > by Galina's orders. Not just obeying the Red Commandant, but also
> > the BA directive.
>
> I prefer the title Generalisima.
That would be Adelorna for me.. Or Cadsuane should she pull a
Rashima during the actual Last Battle.
>
> > Conversely, Elaida's thoughts about how Duhara owed her position
> > in the Hall to her (Elaida), would seem a bit off if Duhara had
> > tenure. Also, Seaine should raise the issue of the reds having
> > Duhara as a former Sitter back in the slot. Even if it is just
> > seen as a minor blip due to Elaida's elevation.
>
> This is true.
Yeah for all the good it does me.
Btw, this has been a nice way to re-charge a bit. All I need
is Jed to show up and join in and I can pretend to be back in
the (slightly) good old days.
---
JSH
Richard Boye'
>
> Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408C45...@webspan.net>...
> > J.Hamby wrote:
> > >
> > > Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408496...@webspan.net>...
> > > > Loial wrote:
> > > > >
[...]
> > > Elaida as Sitter raises some interesting issues. First, of course,
> > > is why her elevation did not raise eyebrows. Especially if she
> > > supplanted an in-office Sitter and not merely replace a dead one.
> > > Her strength makes her a likely candidate, but her age should
> > > be an issue.
> >
> > Elaida can also Fortell and the Tower knows it. That gaves her even more
> > suasion.
>
> Actually this makes sense. Alviarin is very wary of this ability;
> perhaps not just of the ability but the weight it gives Elaida's
> words whether Foretold or not.
Even back in tGH, when Suian tells Moiraine about Elaida's, I guess,
"testimony" before the Hall, she says Elaida has the Foretelling, and
that gave her words added weight with the Hall.
> > But Seaine isn't looking at from that angle. Every once in a while, you
> > might get an unusual Sitter, and Elaida has other attributes that
> > compensate for her relative youth. Having said that, though, when Seaine
> > was picking through the situation, Elaida was no longer in the Hall.
> > Also, the Red Ajah didn't split, so Seaine isn't trying to analyze the
> > politics of their situation in light of the schism.
>
> It still makes the issue forced to me. Perhaps because Jordan
> seems to be taking one of the most half-assed routes on the whole
> Sitter issue. But my real point is that Seaine is up in arms
> over an issue that makes sense only because we as readers know
> about the issue in the Rebel Hall. Seaine apparently does not.
> Only two hundred some women in the Hall makes for slim pickings.
> So unusual choices for Sitter resulting in unusual times seems
> well logical. Seaine never qualifies the oddness, whereas Siuan
> does. And yet the oddness Seaine picks at is milder and leaves
> out some rather important issues. Namely the Red and Joline.
> Yes the Red have not split.
Everyone knows about Joline, though - she was picked as an act of
defiance. Do we even know if Joline is atypically young for the job?
[....]
> If someone thinks there is
> a pattern, then any possible exceptions to the rule must be addressed.
> Even Duhara being a former Keeper should have been addressed. Which
> makes me suspect that he made that up for _NS-tacky-on_. Unless
> the Hall gets lots of former Keepers taking up seats.
Well, in order to correct to error about Suian being the fifth in a line
of six Blues or whatever, RJ had to cobble together an explanation that
there was a rash of Amyrlins dying extraordinarily young. Which would
mean that there would be a plethora of former Keepers.
> > > It also makes sense that Duhara would more easily give up her seat
> > > by Galina's orders. Not just obeying the Red Commandant, but also
> > > the BA directive.
> >
> > I prefer the title Generalisima.
>
> That would be Adelorna for me.. Or Cadsuane should she pull a
> Rashima during the actual Last Battle.
Hmmm... mayhaps Dictatrix.
> Btw, this has been a nice way to re-charge a bit. All I need
> is Jed to show up and join in and I can pretend to be back in
> the (slightly) good old days.
And Sarah Coit.
J.Hamby
> J.Hamby wrote:
> >
> > Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408C45...@webspan.net>...
> > > J.Hamby wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Richard Boye' <wa...@webspan.net> wrote in message news:<408496...@webspan.net>...
> > > > > Loial wrote:
> > > > > >
>
> [...]
>
[...]
>
> > > But Seaine isn't looking at from that angle. Every once in a while, you
> > > might get an unusual Sitter, and Elaida has other attributes that
> > > compensate for her relative youth. Having said that, though, when Seaine
> > > was picking through the situation, Elaida was no longer in the Hall.
> > > Also, the Red Ajah didn't split, so Seaine isn't trying to analyze the
> > > politics of their situation in light of the schism.
> >
> > It still makes the issue forced to me. Perhaps because Jordan
> > seems to be taking one of the most half-assed routes on the whole
> > Sitter issue. But my real point is that Seaine is up in arms
> > over an issue that makes sense only because we as readers know
> > about the issue in the Rebel Hall. Seaine apparently does not.
> > Only two hundred some women in the Hall makes for slim pickings.
> > So unusual choices for Sitter resulting in unusual times seems
> > well logical. Seaine never qualifies the oddness, whereas Siuan
> > does. And yet the oddness Seaine picks at is milder and leaves
> > out some rather important issues. Namely the Red and Joline.
> > Yes the Red have not split.
>
> Everyone knows about Joline, though - she was picked as an act of
> defiance. Do we even know if Joline is atypically young for the job?
Two things to point to yes. First Joline thinks that she gained the
shawl when Elaida's mother had been a child (aCoS pg 313). Second,
by memory, she seems to recognize Setalle's voice which places her in
the Tower seventy years ago and probably making her an initiate with
Setalle. This would match her reaching the shawl when Elaida (who is
in her early fifties, I believe) about seventy years ago.
My point about Joline is that she is either too young and
should support Seaine's chicken little routine with Yukiri.
In fact the oddness of the Greens raising Joline and then Rina
should have raised a few eyebrows by itself. Or if Joline was
seen as a universal slap in Elaida's face, then raising another
'too young' Sitter should have also caused comment. Or Yukiri
use as refutation to Seaine's claims. But Joline being young
makes four Sitters raised in Elaida's Hall.
Or, conversely, if Joline was just old enough (the whole mother as
a babe is a vague and general enough statement that it allows Jordan
to change his mind later on -- especially if he forgets that Joline
_might_ have to figure into the whole odd Sitter equation), then
Joline's displacement and the raising of Rina also serves to drive
home the whole oddness factor in another way. Something that should
be commented on.
Also, I am not sure that Joline can be dismissed as a slap
in Elaida's face. Yes it does make sense. But also remember
that this is Elaida's thoughts we are talking about. Not exactly
lucid or logical. When Elaida views Joline during the meeting of
the Tower junta, she thinsk this almost right after she thinks she
Alviarin delivered the White Ajah to her. Something which we
know is not true. Later when she thinks about Joline and Teslyn,
she also creates several delusions in th clouds which clearly show
that Elaida is too firmly entrenched in personal biases and believing
too strongly in what she wants to see happen.
Elaida might have seen Joline as an insult. A defiance. When after all,
she was merely the first of a 'too young' Sitter chosen by her Ajah head.
Adelorna may well have chosen Joline because Elaida (and others) might
overlook her age due to her early participation in the coup. But I really
hesitate to use Elaida's thoughts as a sole foundation for motive on
another character's part.
>
> [....]
>
> > If someone thinks there is
> > a pattern, then any possible exceptions to the rule must be addressed.
> > Even Duhara being a former Keeper should have been addressed. Which
> > makes me suspect that he made that up for _NS-tacky-on_. Unless
> > the Hall gets lots of former Keepers taking up seats.
>
> Well, in order to correct to error about Suian being the fifth in a line
> of six Blues or whatever, RJ had to cobble together an explanation that
> there was a rash of Amyrlins dying extraordinarily young. Which would
> mean that there would be a plethora of former Keepers.
Yeah but all Blues. Actually only two. The one named in _NS_ redux
and Marith Jaen's. Who possibly might have been the same person.
It irritates when Jordan made Alviarin being Keeper an issue and
then we find out that Duhara was Keeper just twenty years ago.
> > > > It also makes sense that Duhara would more easily give up her seat
> > > > by Galina's orders. Not just obeying the Red Commandant, but also
> > > > the BA directive.
> > >
> > > I prefer the title Generalisima.
> >
> > That would be Adelorna for me.. Or Cadsuane should she pull a
> > Rashima during the actual Last Battle.
>
> Hmmm... mayhaps Dictatrix.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue (no nasty puns intended).
I'm sure I'll think of something as soon as I send this.
>
>
> > Btw, this has been a nice way to re-charge a bit. All I need
> > is Jed to show up and join in and I can pretend to be back in
> > the (slightly) good old days.
>
> And Sarah Coit.
There is someone else missing too but damn if I can remember who (Scott, maybe?)
(how board do we need to make these hints btw?)
---
JSH