Why is Nyaneve such a bitch?
razdan
Every time I read about Nyaneve, she irritates me. I have
yet to see her behave civilly toward a man (except maybe Lan).
What is her problem???? Does anyone else have this reaction
to Nyaneve? I think maybe she had a troubled childhood and
developed a hatred for men or something. Any suggestions?
Razdan
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John H. Bilow
: Every time I read about Nyaneve, she irritates me. I have
: yet to see her behave civilly toward a man (except maybe Lan).
: What is her problem???? Does anyone else have this reaction
: to Nyaneve? I think maybe she had a troubled childhood and
: developed a hatred for men or something. Any suggestions?
She is a bitch because she can be. I have a theory that her real
identity is Murphy Brown. Think about it, the attitudes are almost
identical. Obstinant, strong willed, and bitchy could describe them both.
Joseph Rosenfeld
: razdan@ wrote:
: : Every time I read about Nyaneve, she irritates me. I have
: : yet to see her behave civilly toward a man (except maybe Lan).
: : What is her problem???? Does anyone else have this reaction
: : to Nyaneve? I think maybe she had a troubled childhood and
: : developed a hatred for men or something. Any suggestions?
No, she is much different. I almost think she is insane, at times. I
wish she would just pull her damne braid out of her head, and then scream
for several days before she could stop. She is half of one of the coolest
women in the entire Randland. On the other hand, she needs psychological
help. If I were ohne of the Forsaken, I would taunt her with "bloody"
this and "flaming" that and throw forkroot tea at her.
I think she just has a strange view of the world--remember society was
damaged by the taint on saidin as much as any men who could channel.
Other than that, I wish I could help her, fictionalized character that she
be, but I doubt I have what it takes to do anything other than yell at her
foolishness.
Sometimes I think Elayne is just as twisted, but I guess I like them both.
They are just very very frustrating to read about. I find it very hard to
concentrate on the parts with those two, and as a result, I miss some
things I would have otherwise have caught.
Maybe Social Conversion, aka _The Prisoner_ would be best for Nynaeve?
: She is a bitch because she can be. I have a theory that her real
: identity is Murphy Brown. Think about it, the attitudes are almost
: identical. Obstinant, strong willed, and bitchy could describe them both.
Regards-
Cowboy
P. Korda
Yeah, Cool!
Pam "way, way, way too much free time" Korda
ko...@mtolympus.ari.net
Aaron Bergman
: razdan@ wrote:
: : Every time I read about Nyaneve, she irritates me. I have
: : yet to see her behave civilly toward a man (except maybe Lan).
: : What is her problem???? Does anyone else have this reaction
: : to Nyaneve? I think maybe she had a troubled childhood and
: : developed a hatred for men or something. Any suggestions?
: She is a bitch because she can be. I have a theory that her real
: identity is Murphy Brown. Think about it, the attitudes are almost
: identical. Obstinant, strong willed, and bitchy could describe them both.
No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
be.
Aaron
--
--------
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://minerva.cis.yale.edu/~abergman/abergman.html>
--A flag burning amendment would burn the flag--
Joseph Rosenfeld
: No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
: because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
: be.
Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
inadequacies. I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
she will know TRUE pain.
Bloody flaming Nynaeve :-)
Cowboy
Ashutosh Razdan
>In <3vr2cu$d...@ruby.ucc.nau.edu>, j...@dana.ucc.nau.edu (John H. Bilow) writes:
>>She is a bitch because she can be. I have a theory that her real
>>identity is Murphy Brown. Think about it, the attitudes are almost
>>identical. Obstinant, strong willed, and bitchy could describe them
>>both.
>
>self-confidence. It's been stated earlier that much of Nynaeve's
>arrogance and bad behavior is the overcompensation of a woman
>who feels she isn't up to the responsibilities of her position.
>
>Marc Sanders
>
Initially, I liked Nynaeve. She was over-protective of the young
men from the Two Rivers, but they needed it. In the course of time,
however, she developed a rather beligerent attitude toward men.
The disurbing part is that the trend seems to be getting worse with
time. And I'm sure her unfruitful affair with Lan didn't help
her attitude toward men much.
Let's hope she gets the help she needs.
mls...@ibm.net
Flavio J. Carrillo
Nynaeve may not be a bitch, but she _is_ an incredibly annoying shrew.
Far and away my least favorite female character. (My favorite, oddly
enough, is Berelain, whom all the other main female characters dislike.
I think she's a lot of fun, myself, although she's gone over the top
with Perrin.)
Flavio Carrillo
(sorry I've been scarce around here; been busy with work.)
Flavio J. Carrillo
Ok, there's been a fair amount of discussion about women characters
folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
characters?
My two least favorite are Gawyn and Galad. Galad's obvious enough: his
syrupy sanctimonious should get on anybody's nerves, I'd think.
Gawyn's harder to explain. He grates on me. His puppy like adoration of
Egwene is embarassing. His idotic jumping to conclusions WRT Rand based
on nothing more than rumor and inneundo indicates the workings of a
less than laser sharp mind. He follows Elaida's cause, which even he
must have doubts about, at a time when his nation needs his leadership.
(I understand that as a male he's not in a position to become
sovereign, but surely he could do something more positive than mooning
after Egwene and frothing about Rand.)
At heart, he's just a spoiled aristocratic brat. I'm betting that he
buys the farm in CoS, and won't be sorry if he does.
A case could be made about Mat, but I like his impishness. And somebody
needs to show the ladies of Randland that some men can't be bossed
around. :)
Flavio Carrillo
Michael D. Steeves
= Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
= : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
= : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
= : be.
=
= Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
= do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
= inadequacies. I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
= she will know TRUE pain.
Erm, because she was made Wisdom so young?
-darkelf
--
Death before dishonor / Drugs before lunch
-Aspen Gun and Drug Club
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.uml.edu/~msteeves | mste...@cs.uml.edu
Michael D. Steeves
= Nyneave is not a bitch. Nynaeve is COOL. heh hehheh.
=
= Yeah, Cool!
Pam Korda revealed to be mysterious 14th Forsaken!
GIF at 11!!
-darkelf
"Where does Butthead kick Beavis?"
"Ummm...the 'nads. Yeah. Heh. The 'nads."
"Survey says...*BUZZ*. The correct answer is
'ass', and I'm going to have to kick you there
now."
*WHACK*
-Beavis and Butthead
Richard Allen
>Flavio Carrillo
Believe it or not, my least favorite male character is Mazrim Taim. I
don't like the way he acts and I think he's going to double cross
Rand, which makes him even more despicable. The way he's going out of
his way to help Rand at the last minute is really angering, since I
believe it's only to gain Rand's trust.
Rick Allen
Aaron Bergman
: Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
: : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
: : be.
: Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
: do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
: inadequacies. I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
: she will know TRUE pain.
Well, when you are in a position of power at a young age, there
are two ways to get respect. One is to earn it over time and live
with the teasing, etc. The other is to scare everyone into
submission and mae them respect you.
Guess which one Nynaeve chose.
an...@andyc.carenet.org
>
>Ok, there's been a fair amount of discussion about women characters
>folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
>characters?
>
My least favorite male character is the late Saml Hake. Hopefully you
didn't mean main characters :).
Andy Carlson Email: an...@andyc.carenet.org
http://bjc.carenet.org/~ts55428
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'ts5...@spectrum.carenet.org' with a subject line of 'Jordan FAQ'
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mls...@ibm.net
>Nynaeve may not be a bitch, but she _is_ an incredibly annoying shrew.
>Far and away my least favorite female character. (My favorite, oddly
>enough, is Berelain, whom all the other main female characters dislike.
>I think she's a lot of fun, myself, although she's gone over the top
>with Perrin.)
It's not really Perrin so much as Faile. The only reason Berelain is
pursuing Perrin so hard is to get back at Faile for attacking her in
tSR. "I despise being attacked, farmgirl, so this is what I'll do. I
will take the blacksmith away from you and keep him as a pet for
as long as he amuses me." <tSR, Customs of Mayene, pg 171 [Tor
Hardcover]>
Marc Sanders
mls...@ibm.net
>Ok, there's been a fair amount of discussion about women characters
>folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
>characters?
Perrin "Mr. Clueless" Aybarra. Need I say more?
Marc Sanders
Kenneth Cavness
jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu (Joseph Rosenfeld) wrote:
> Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
> : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
> : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
> : be.
> Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
> do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
> inadequacies. I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
> she will know TRUE pain.
You have a lot of pain inside of you, Joseph. Why don't we call Semirhage
over and have her take a look at you?
K-k-k-ken(neth) "l'homme mieux" Cavness
--
Kenneth Cavness
cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu, az...@mail.utexas.edu,
az...@menzo.sojourn.com, star...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Kenneth Cavness
flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) wrote:
> [Gawyn] follows Elaida's cause, which even he
> must have doubts about, at a time when his nation needs his leadership.
> (I understand that as a male he's not in a position to become
> sovereign, but surely he could do something more positive than mooning
> after Egwene and frothing about Rand.)
The thing is, he has been brought up all of his life with "my blood shed
before hers" mindset. He thinks that SS took him away from Elayne,
thus putting her into danger and causing him to break his oath. This oath
was his raison d'etre. He was taught it even before he knew what it meant.
Elaida, while less than trustworthy, is, in Gawyn's mind, the lesser of two
huge evils. The Tower Split means little to him; what does is his hopes of
vengeance.
He thinks that Rand killed Elayne; the Aes Sedai don't discourage that idea.
I see him less as an aristocratic brat than a truly confused young man who
really doesn't have the slightest clue which is the right side.
--
K-k-k-ken(neth) "l'homme mieux" Cavness
cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu, az...@mail.utexas.edu,
az...@menzo.sojourn.com, star...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Flavio J. Carrillo
cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>
>The thing is, he has been brought up all of his life with "my blood
shed before hers" mindset. He thinks that SS took him away from Elayne,
>thus putting her into danger and causing him to break his oath. This
oath was his raison d'etre. He was taught it even before he knew what
it meant.
>Elaida, while less than trustworthy, is, in Gawyn's mind, the lesser
of two huge evils. The Tower Split means little to him; what does is
his hopes of vengeance.
>
>He thinks that Rand killed Elayne; the Aes Sedai don't discourage that
idea. I see him less as an aristocratic brat than a truly confused
young man who really doesn't have the slightest clue which is the right
side.
>
Kenneth, the fact that Gawyn immediately jumps to conclusions about
Rand doesn't say much for him. He certainly has reasons to be confused;
but that doesn't excuse him for latching on to the most convenient
explanation. He simply has no firm basis for either his trust of Elaida
(such as that is) or his hatred for Rand. That hatred, I think, is
largely based on jealousy over Egwene (and maybe a little incestual
jealousy over Elayne?), and he's papered that over with Morgase's
"death" as a justification. He doesn't know conclusively that Morgase
is dead or that Rand killed her.
Somebody neglected to teach Gawyn the intricacies of the Game of
Houses; either that, or he slept through his lessons. For a man in his
position, I find him to be astonishingly naive.
I still think he should be in Andor taking steps to secure the position
of his House (and Elayne's succession, if he believes Morgase is dead)
rather than running around as Elaida's errand boy.
Flavio Carrillo
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
: Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
: : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
: : be.
: Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
: do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
: inadequacies.
She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
: I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
: she will know TRUE pain.
Heh. Wait till she Heals him, then.
Becky/Nynaeve
--
Becky Slitt "I disagree with what you say, but
rsl...@minerva.cis.yale.edu I will defend to the death your
Most Superlative Woman on the Net right to say it" - Voltaire
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmLONG LIVE MAGEVET AND THE MIDDLE AGESmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Clarissa Springer
: A case could be made about Mat, but I like his impishness. And somebody
: needs to show the ladies of Randland that some men can't be bossed
: around. :)
While Mat is not my LFC, he is by far the character I find the most
frustrating. He has such great potential (battle skill, luck, essential
to Rand and TG, ect.) but he is _so_ _paranoid_ that he completely misses
what's really happening. He is only pulled into leading the armies by
the working of the Pattern, not because he makes any connection with his
memories and sudden tactical abilities. He just refuses to even try to
understand anything about the OP. I wanted to scream at him when he
was with the second of the *finns and completely missing all the clues
that they might be different than the first!
He has the ability to be a leader and active participant in the events
of his world, but he won't admit it. Since he is ta'avern, he cannot
escape having influence, but because he is fighting against this he
becomes very unpredictable and unstable as a character. This may make
him more realistic (I do enjoy 3-D characters), but it is very hard to
watch someone wasting their potential, actively refusing to understand
what is happening in their world.
Down with Blinders!
Clarissa
Emma Pease
>I still think he [Gawyn] should be in Andor taking steps to secure
>the position of his House (and Elayne's succession, if he believes
>Morgase is dead) rather than running around as Elaida's errand boy.
He probably will be in the next book either because
1. He doesn't trust Elaida and decides to head home with his younglings.
or
2. He returns to Elaida with his news and she sends him (and some AS)
off to deal with the Black Tower which is near Caemlyn (AS again with
instructions to get rid of Gawyn permanently).
I'm inclined to 2. He should be just in time to meet Egwene with her
forces. Remember he doesn't know that Morgase is dead until he starts
the journey to Cairhien and that journey is something he has promised
to do.
Emma
--
Emma Pease /\~~/\
em...@csli.stanford.edu |__\/__|
Net spinster | /\* | unsolicited commercial email will
\/__\/ be returned to sender and postmaster
Flavio J. Carrillo
cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>> In <cavness-0708...@staff-mac47.nur.utexas.edu>
>> cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>>
>> Kenneth, the fact that Gawyn immediately jumps to conclusions about
>> Rand doesn't say much for him.
>
>It says a plethora of things about him:
>a) He's rather ticked that Rand is ruling Andor at the moment.
>b) All he has is rumours to lsiten to, and it is his experience that
>rumours have a tendency of being at least half right.
>c) Even if he had all the facts at his disposal, even *Rand* doesn't
>know that Morgase is alive. Heck, even *Elayne* doesn't know that
>Morgase is alive.
>d) He's picked a target as far away from his personal knowledge as
>he could. This shows that he's not willing to face reality, or doesn't
>know what reality is at the moment.
Allow me to rephrase: it doesn't say much for his intelligence. But,
yes, it does tell us a lot about his character.
If rumors have a tendency to be have right, that implies they have a
corresponding tendency to be half wrong. Without firm evidence, how
does one separate the wheat from the chaff? Such credulity on Gawyn's
part is, well, incredulous. But he believes what he wants to believe.
>
>> >Elaida, while less than trustworthy, is, in Gawyn's mind, the
lesserof two huge evils. The Tower Split means little to him; what does
is his hopes of vengeance.
>
>> He simply has no firm basis for either his trust of Elaida
>> (such as that is) or his hatred for Rand.
>
>He doesn't quite trust Elaida. He just figures that if he has to side
with one of 'em, he'll side with the one who has the highest chance of
getting revenge against Rand and SS.
>
This begs the question of how reasonable that desire for vengeance is,
given the lack of hard evidence WRT Rand's guilt and Morgase's death.
>> That hatred, I think, is
>> largely based on jealousy over Egwene (and maybe a little incestual
>> jealousy over Elayne?),
>
>Wow. Talk about loony theory. *grimace*
Ok, I threw in the bit about Elayne for chuckles, but I'm serious as to
Gawyn's jealousy over Egwene: in LoC Egwene views a dream of Gawyn's in
which Gawyn fights Rand to "free her." Egwene is hardly in Rand's
clutches, but it is an interesting comment on Gawyn's state of mind.
>
>> Somebody neglected to teach Gawyn the intricacies of the Game of
>> Houses; either that, or he slept through his lessons. For a man in
his position, I find him to be astonishingly naive.
>
>Remember; Andor only plays a dull reflection of Daes Daemar; it's
>the Cairhienin who most play and enjoy the game.
>
This is true as far as it goes. But Elayne and Morgase seem fairly
adept at Daes Daemar, Andorian distaste for intrigue notwithstanding.
As a noble in the ruling House of Andor, Gawyn has a greater need to
play the game than would be normally expected. Heck, this sort of
politicking goes with the territory. It's all part of statecraft.
Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home, and
bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've done
it, too, if Egwene had agreed. This sort of thing doesn't exactly
inspire confidence.
Gawyn has all the worst traits and frivolousness of today's House of
Windsor. He's a pretty sad excuse for a Prince.
Flavio Carrillo
Flavio J. Carrillo
(Karl-Johan Norén) writes:
>
>In article <4031ah$e...@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
>> folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
>> characters?
>
Thanks. :)
>When you're on the receiving end, that is. Galad is
>probably the person in the series with the biggest
>ethical and morak standards, and he enforces that on
>himself far more than on the environment, which does
>not say little.
>
>While he lacks Thom's or Gareth Bryne's experience,
>I think he is the male character most worthy of
>respect. And remember that most judgments of him has
>come from Elayne, who has some, ahem, dislike for
>Galad. And knowing Elayne's personality, I would put
>more blame on her for that that on Galad.
Ok, I'll accept that maybe we haven't gotten the most objective
appraisal of Galad.
Now, Galad may be moral and ethical, but such morality and ethicality
can be taken to an inflexible extreme. The art of statecraft requires
more than mere honor: a Prince must play both the lion and the fox.
(Hey, it's good enough for Machiavelli, right?) Galad exhibits lion
like integrity in the extreme, but I've seen precious little of the fox
to date. It's a question of bringing about the proper means to achieve
one's ends.
Let's compare him to, say, Rand. Rand is a very principled person; but
he is also a reasonable one, and understands that the price of failure
is too high for simple ethical rigidity. If Galad were the Dragon
Reborn, there's reason to believe that Randland would be in deep
trouble. His ethicality strains the bounds of reason and is nearly
solipsistic. The practical results of this ethicality strike me as
being very unethical. Is it better to remain true to one's principles
and achieve no good or to bend a little to achieve some?
>
>> Gawyn's harder to explain. He grates on me. His puppy like adoration
of Egwene is embarassing. His idotic jumping to conclusions WRT Rand
based on nothing more than rumor and inneundo indicates the workings of
a less than laser sharp mind. He follows Elaida's cause, which even he
must have doubts about, at a time when his nation needs his leadership.
>What can he do? When he learns of Morgase's death,
>Rand is in Caemlyn, and he probably thinks Rand will
>kill him at sight, so it's a bad thing to hurl off to
>Caemlyn. He has no clue where Elayne is, so he stays
>where he thinks he can do some good and get some news,
>in Tar Valon.
He could stay in Andor, and organize resistance to Rand. He could
defend the honor and interests of his House. He could make an effort to
track down Elayne. He could also make an effort to ascertain the true
facts surrounding Morgase instead of taking rumor as fact. He could do
a whole lot of things that he is not.
>
>> At heart, he's just a spoiled aristocratic brat. I'm betting that he
>> buys the farm in CoS, and won't be sorry if he does.
>
>A spoiled aristocratic brat who more or less from
>nothing creates one of the best military units present?
>Who kills two of the best Warders in open battle? Who
>puts his life at stake to bring Siuan away from Elaida?
I can find these traits in any decent warrior; Gawyn is far more than
that. As a member of the Andoran ruling House his responsibilities go
well beyond knowing how to swing a sword. I believe that he has
abandoned those responsibilities for love and vengeance. This may be
personally satisfying, but of little advantage to Morgase, Elayne or
Andor in general.
>
>> A case could be made about Mat, but I like his impishness. And
somebody needs to show the ladies of Randland that some men can't be
bossed around. :)
>
>The problem is that he does it by his utter lack of
>common sense.
>
> Venligen
>
> Karl-Johan
Yeah. Mat has too much pride for his own good. But you have to admit
that he's been mightily provoked. He needs to learn when to use honey
rather than vinegar.
Flavio Carrillo
Kenneth Cavness
> In <cavness-0708...@staff-mac47.nur.utexas.edu>
> cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>
> >The thing is, he has been brought up all of his life with "my blood
> >shed before hers" mindset. He thinks that SS took him away from Elayne,
> >thus putting her into danger and causing him to break his oath. This
> >oath was his raison d'etre. He was taught it even before he knew what
> >it meant.
>
> >He thinks that Rand killed Elayne; the Aes Sedai don't discourage that
> >idea. I see him less as an aristocratic brat than a truly confused
> >young man who really doesn't have the slightest clue which is the right
> >side.
>
> Kenneth, the fact that Gawyn immediately jumps to conclusions about
> Rand doesn't say much for him.
It says a plethora of things about him:
a) He's rather ticked that Rand is ruling Andor at the moment.
b) All he has is rumours to lsiten to, and it is his experience that
rumours have a tendency of being at least half right.
c) Even if he had all the facts at his disposal, even *Rand* doesn't
know that Morgase is alive. Heck, even *Elayne* doesn't know that
Morgase is alive.
d) He's picked a target as far away from his personal knowledge as
he could. This shows that he's not willing to face reality, or doesn't
know what reality is at the moment.
> >Elaida, while less than trustworthy, is, in Gawyn's mind, the lesser
> >of two huge evils. The Tower Split means little to him; what does is
> >his hopes of vengeance.
> He simply has no firm basis for either his trust of Elaida
> (such as that is) or his hatred for Rand.
He doesn't quite trust Elaida. He just figures that if he has to side with
one of 'em, he'll side with the one who has the highest chance of getting
revenge against Rand and SS.
> That hatred, I think, is
> largely based on jealousy over Egwene (and maybe a little incestual
> jealousy over Elayne?),
Wow. Talk about loony theory. *grimace*
> Somebody neglected to teach Gawyn the intricacies of the Game of
> Houses; either that, or he slept through his lessons. For a man in his
> position, I find him to be astonishingly naive.
Remember; Andor only plays a dull reflection of Daes Daemar; it's
the Cairhienin who most play and enjoy the game.
--
Karl-Johan Norén
> Ok, there's been a fair amount of discussion about women characters
> folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
> characters?
Yeah :-)
> My two least favorite are Gawyn and Galad. Galad's obvious enough: his
> syrupy sanctimonious should get on anybody's nerves, I'd think.
When you're on the receiving end, that is. Galad is
probably the person in the series with the biggest
ethical and morak standards, and he enforces that on
himself far more than on the environment, which does
not say little.
While he lacks Thom's or Gareth Bryne's experience,
I think he is the male character most worthy of
respect. And remember that most judgments of him has
come from Elayne, who has some, ahem, dislike for
Galad. And knowing Elayne's personality, I would put
more blame on her for that that on Galad.
> Gawyn's harder to explain. He grates on me. His puppy like adoration of
> Egwene is embarassing. His idotic jumping to conclusions WRT Rand based
> on nothing more than rumor and inneundo indicates the workings of a
> less than laser sharp mind. He follows Elaida's cause, which even he
> must have doubts about, at a time when his nation needs his leadership.
First, Gawyn probably encountered Padan Fain, or some
Forsaken, in the LoC prologue, and you know what they
do with the brains of their victims.
And even if he doubts Elaida, his sense of honor is
almost as strong as Gawyn's, and he tries to support
what he deems are the ideals of the Tower.
> (I understand that as a male he's not in a position to become
> sovereign, but surely he could do something more positive than mooning
> after Egwene and frothing about Rand.)
What can he do? When he learns of Morgase's death,
Rand is in Caemlyn, and he probably thinks Rand will
kill him at sight, so it's a bad thing to hurl off to
Caemlyn. He has no clue where Elayne is, so he stays
where he thinks he can do some good and get some news,
in Tar Valon.
> At heart, he's just a spoiled aristocratic brat. I'm betting that he
> buys the farm in CoS, and won't be sorry if he does.
A spoiled aristocratic brat who more or less from
nothing creates one of the best military units present?
Who kills two of the best Warders in open battle? Who
puts his life at stake to bring Siuan away from Elaida?
> A case could be made about Mat, but I like his impishness. And somebody
> needs to show the ladies of Randland that some men can't be bossed
> around. :)
The problem is that he does it by his utter lack of
common sense.
Venligen
Karl-Johan
--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Karl-Johan Norén e-mail: k-j-...@dsv.su.se |
| WWW: http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/ |
| The only mushroom on the net |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Joseph Rosenfeld
: Joseph Rosenfeld (jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu) wrote:
: : Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: : : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
: : : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
: : : be.
: : Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
: : do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
: : inadequacies.
: She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
: age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
: get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
: she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
No, I would not. I have held the reins of power and responsibility and
have not acted that way. Nynaeve chose to be this way, and it is not
right to make all these excuses for her--they do not change her, you see.
And Caveman Ken is wrong--I am not hiding any pain, and this is NOT ST:V.
: : I cannot wait for Lan to be kille din front of her. Then
: : she will know TRUE pain.
: Heh. Wait till she Heals him, then.
: Becky/Nynaeve
Becky, I hope she does, and I will be pulling for her to succeed and save
Lan, but I truly expect Moghedien to kill Lan as a present for Nynaeve's
collaring her in TAR.
So it is up to Nynaeve now. No more complaining, no more pulling on her
braids, no more fear. I would like to see her achieve what she is capable
of, so I can praise her, not revile her. If she wants to practice
balefire I am sure we can line Ken up for her to aim at.
Regards-
Cowboy
Kenneth Cavness
jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu (Joseph Rosenfeld) wrote:
> Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997) (rsl...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
> : Joseph Rosenfeld (jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu) wrote:
> : : Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
> : : do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
> : : inadequacies.
> : She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
> : age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
> : get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
> : she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
>
> No, I would not. I have held the reins of power and responsibility and
> have not acted that way. Nynaeve chose to be this way, and it is not
> right to make all these excuses for her--they do not change her, you see.
[personal flame where Joseph did NOT get the joke munched]
I'm kind of sure that you have not been in a position as high as Nynaeve,
Joseph, unless there's something you're hiding. Nynaeve was basically
in Director of the Emond Field Hospital, Council Liaison, and Co-Mayor
all rolled into one -- at the ripe old age of about 23, wasn't it?
To compare your life with Nynaeve's is sort of silly, anyways. You may
have had different ways of handling the situations that came your way,
but that doesn't mean that Nynaeve is weak or has shortcomings because
she adapted in that way to her situation!
> If she wants to practice
> balefire I am sure we can line Ken up for her to aim at.
It's Kenn, if you're going to shorten it. Thanks!
Chad R Orzel
Flavio J. Carrillo <flav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <cavness-0708...@staff-mac47.nur.utexas.edu>
>cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>>
>>He thinks that Rand killed Elayne; the Aes Sedai don't discourage that
>>idea. I see him less as an aristocratic brat than a truly confused
>>young man who really doesn't have the slightest clue which is the right
>>side.
>>
>
>Kenneth, the fact that Gawyn immediately jumps to conclusions about
>but that doesn't excuse him for latching on to the most convenient
>(such as that is) or his hatred for Rand. That hatred, I think, is
>largely based on jealousy over Egwene (and maybe a little incestual
>"death" as a justification. He doesn't know conclusively that Morgase
>is dead or that Rand killed her.
>
He hears rumors that Morgase is dead- Rahvin started these, and they had
spread through most of Andor by the end of FoH. Shortly thereafter, he
hears that Rand has killed Gaebril and is in power in Caemlyn. This news
probably reaches Tar Valon almost immediately, given the fact that it
spreads from two sources (Caemlyn and Cairhien), and that the Tower has
spies in Caemlyn. Rumor has it that Rand killed _both_ Gaebril and Morgase
(if the two deaths occurred in close enough succession, this is no
surprise), and there's no real reason to doubt it.
No-one really knows that Gaebril is Rahvin, so everyone believes that
Morgase is still in charge. She's behaving oddly, but so far as anyone
knows, _she's_ the real power in Andor. To take control, al'Thor must
have killed her...
The official (and, as it happens, true) story reaches Tar Valon later-
Gaebril killed Morgase, and Rand killed him. But this is _exactly_ the
sort of thing a new tyrant would use to cover up his murderous ways, and
justify his takeover. This can easily be dismissed as propaganda, leaving
Gawyn convinced that Rand is a murdering bastard, and, what's more, lying
about the whole thing.
>I still think he should be in Andor taking steps to secure the position
>of his House (and Elayne's succession, if he believes Morgase is dead)
>rather than running around as Elaida's errand boy.
>
What can he do in Andor?
For all he knows, there's a price on his head in Caemlyn- if he goes
running there, Rand fries him. End of rebellion.
He needs to stay out of Andor, and gather support for his House against
al'Thor. The best course would be to find Elayne, but he doesn't know
where she is (other than Siuan's little white lie...).
If he stays in Tar Valon, and acts as Elaida's errand boy, he does two
things: 1) he can indirectly use the Tower's resources to find his sister
and bring her back where she belongs, and 2) he can hopefully secure Tar
Valon backing for his attempt to re-take the throne for Elayne. And
remember, he had already cast his lot with Elaida's faction in the Tower
split- he's stuck backing her.
Where else can he turn? Tear and Cairhien are Rand's, Ilian is Sammael's,
and unreachable to boot. The Borderlands are unlikely to help, he can't
really ask the Whitecloaks to aid him, and the whole western part of the
continent is in chaos.
Note that he's not happy with the situation. He's frustrated as Hell at
the fact that nothing useful is being done to locate Elayne or re-take
Andor- that's why he's running around with his private army and killing
anyone he can. It's a grief therapy thing...
Based on the information availible to him, Gawyn is doing the right thing.
In fact, he's doing the only thing he _can._
Later,
OilCan
Kenneth Cavness
> In <cavness-0708...@staff-mac21.nur.utexas.edu>
> cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
> >flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) wrote:
> >>
> >> Kenneth, the fact that Gawyn immediately jumps to conclusions about
> >> Rand doesn't say much for him.
> >
[simplified: I say that he's pissed at rand, he only has chittery gossip to
listen to, noone thinks that Morgase is alive that he could ask, and he's
using transferrance in the purest of freudian senses]
> Allow me to rephrase: it doesn't say much for his intelligence. But,
> yes, it does tell us a lot about his character.
>
> If rumors have a tendency to be have right, that implies they have a
> corresponding tendency to be half wrong.
> Without firm evidence, how does one separate the wheat from the
> chaff? Such credulity on Gawyn's part is, well, incredulous. But he
> believes what he wants to believe.
Gawyn knows that Rand has turned the world on its heel. Gawyn knows
that Rand has brought Aiel to Andor -- Aiel that, twenty years before,
had ransacked the "Wetlands" in vengeance for Laman's Mistake(Tm).
Gawyn knows that the Tower, under SS, lost Elayne and Egwene, not
once, not twice, but *Three* times. Gawyn thinks that SS hid their
whereabouts from him, thus preventing him from fulfilling his oath.
Gawyn knows that SS supported Rand, and that is why the Tower fell.
Everything that SS has touched brought Gawyn's life into utter chaos;
what reason does he have to optimistically and foolishly assume the
best around Rand?
As we all know, everything in Randland is NOT the best in the best
of all possible worlds.
[Kenneth says:]
> >> >Elaida, while less than trustworthy, is, in Gawyn's mind, the
> >> >lesserof two huge evils. The Tower Split means little to him; what does
> >> >is his hopes of vengeance.
> >[Flavio says:]
> >> He simply has no firm basis for either his trust of Elaida
> >> (such as that is) or his hatred for Rand.
> >[Kenneth Says:]
> >He doesn't quite trust Elaida. He just figures that if he has to side
> >with one of 'em, he'll side with the one who has the highest chance of
> >getting revenge against Rand and SS.
> This begs the question of how reasonable that desire for vengeance is,
> given the lack of hard evidence WRT Rand's guilt and Morgase's death.
As reasonable as any hot-headed young man who thinks that he's broken
the most important oath in his life, been unable to protect his mother at her
supposed death, etc. Lest we forget, Gaehvin didn't exactly squash the rumours
that Morgase was dead, and implied by Rand's hand.
[Flavio says:]
> >> That hatred, I think, is largely based on jealousy over Egwene
> >> (and maybe a little incestual jealousy over Elayne?),
> Ok, I threw in the bit about Elayne for chuckles, but I'm serious as to
> Gawyn's jealousy over Egwene: in LoC Egwene views a dream of Gawyn's in
> which Gawyn fights Rand to "free her." Egwene is hardly in Rand's
> clutches, but it is an interesting comment on Gawyn's state of mind.
You threw this in for chuckles? Odd, considering your later post concerning
Sex And Power in Randland.
> >> Somebody neglected to teach Gawyn the intricacies of the Game of
> >> Houses; either that, or he slept through his lessons. For a man in
> >> his position, I find him to be astonishingly naive.
> >
> >Remember; Andor only plays a dull reflection of Daes Daemar; it's
> >the Cairhienin who most play and enjoy the game.
> This is true as far as it goes. But Elayne and Morgase seem fairly
> adept at Daes Daemar, Andorian distaste for intrigue notwithstanding.
> As a noble in the ruling House of Andor, Gawyn has a greater need to
> play the game than would be normally expected. Heck, this sort of
> politicking goes with the territory. It's all part of statecraft.
>
> Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
> suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home, and
> bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've done
> it, too, if Egwene had agreed. This sort of thing doesn't exactly
> inspire confidence.
You look at this scene too literally:
Gawyn was telling Egwene that he would drop everything he holds important
in his life for Egwene, take her somewhere safe and away from the cares of the
world, and pretend that life is normal.
In other words, he is pledging his unconditional, undying love for her.
Sappy? Yes. Irresponsible? No.
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
Distribution:
Jeff Smith (smithjj) wrote:
: Sure she covered her inadequacies--and she stayed alive. 75% of wilders die.
: She was afraid of the power, and used her anger to control her fear and the
: OP. Hence, her block. She must learn to channel without fear. This is why
: she also thinks she is a coward, although she is brave to the point of fool
: hardy. I don't consider an angry disposition the same as bitchiness.
: Bitchiness is attacking for the pleasure of attacking and putting someone down.
Exactly - which she does not do at all. She is, in fact, much
_less_ bent on attack and revenge than most characters. Take her reaction
to Moghedien - here she is, on the other end of the a'dam, with complete
control over a person who has hurt her physically and emotionally....and
what Nynaeve thinks about is NOT "how can I hurt her" but "how can I
bring her to trial and justice." Nynaeve's interest in justice is one of
the things I like best about her.
Becky/Nynaeve (who will keep right on using this book name)
Flavio J. Carrillo
Orzel) writes:
>
>In article <4064me$i...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,>{Nothing in this article changes anything from my lengthy analysis,
posted earlier today. Hence, I'm not going to comment on it, save for
the little bit below:}
>
>>Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
>>suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home, and
>>bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've
>>inspire confidence.
>>
>"Bump fuzzies?!?"
>Even for this family newsfroup, that's a bit odd....
>
<chuckle> Insert your own desired phrase.
>Seriously, I don't think that remark was meant to be taken seriously.
>It's a classic example of overly dramatic and goopily romantic
hyperbole-he knows he can't _really_ ditch it all and run away
somewhere, but he says that as a way of showing his undying love, etc.,
etc.
>
Well, I'm not so sure this was merely a precatory remark; my impression
is that Gawyn made it in earnest. I also think that Egwene took it in
earnest. It certainly fits in with Gawyn's rash character.
>There are legitimate reasons to criticize Gawyn. This ain't one of
'em.
>
A Prince willing to chuck responsibility to pursue a romantic dalliance
in the midst of a disaster isn't grounds for criticism???? Wow. I think
that Morgase and Elayne would disagree with this.
>Later,
>OilCan
>
>(Side Note 3: OK, Side Note 1 aside, I'm a sucker for this crap. Sue
me.)
>
Carefull what you wish for; I'm an attorney, you know. ;)
Flavio Carrillo
Flavio J. Carrillo
>
>Ah, this is one of my favorites: analysing characters:
>
>In article <4068sj$k...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>appraisal of Galad.
>
>yet, simply because most of the interactions we have of him are with
>Elayne.
>
I will reserve judgement on Galad pending future developments. On
reflection, I think he will play an increasingly important and
beneficial role in the future. If he does prove to be like Elayne's
caricature, I'll go back to my earlier opinion.
>>can be taken to an inflexible extreme. The art of statecraft requires
>>more than mere honor: a Prince must play both the lion and the fox.
>>(Hey, it's good enough for Machiavelli, right?) Galad exhibits lion
>>like integrity in the extreme, but I've seen precious little of the
fox
>>to date.
>
>Well, he's also not a statesman. He's not in line for any throne (no,
>I don't want to go into the Cairhien thing again--HE doesn't expect to
>become the king of Cairhien). I mean, his life really didn't have that
>much direction until he joined the WCs. I mean, he was destined to be
>a ignored noble/general/advisor in Queen Elayne's court, or married
>off to some foreign royalty to cement an alliance.
>
Hmmm...statesmanship isn't the exclusive domain of the sovereign. The
sovereign's counselors, advisors and generals need to also possess
these qualities to some degree. But I will agree that it is too early
to decide if Galad has these qualities or not. We haven't had a chance
to really see him in action.
>I'm not sure that if I met him in person, I'd LIKE him, but that is
>the case with most of the characters in the book. I could get along
>with Perrin when his wife wasn't around, and Min, and Herid Fel, but I
>dunno about the rest. However, what I like in fictional characters =!
>what I like in people I have to deal with. Galad is _interesting_, and
>I think there is more to him than meets Elayne's eye.
I could see myself barhopping, hellraising and skirtchasing with Mat;
he'd be a lot of fun at a party. ;) Wouldn't dream of playing poker
with him, though. Galad reminds me more of the class president type of
character. No fun at all.
>
>wrt Gawyn: He's my least favorite male character. He's so ANNOYING. I
>understand the reasons WHY he's annoying, but he just rubs me the
>wrong way.
Whew! Here I thought I was the only fellow who didn't like Gawyn.
Should we start a club? ;) Unlike yourself, I neither understand nor
accept Gawyn's motivations.
Flavio Carrillo
Flavio J. Carrillo
cav...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kenneth Cavness) writes:
>
>In article <4064me$i...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) wrote:
>
>Gawyn knows that Rand has turned the world on its heel. Gawyn knows
>that Rand has brought Aiel to Andor -- Aiel that, twenty years before,
>had ransacked the "Wetlands" in vengeance for Laman's Mistake(Tm).
>Gawyn knows that the Tower, under SS, lost Elayne and Egwene, not
>once, not twice, but *Three* times. Gawyn thinks that SS hid their
>whereabouts from him, thus preventing him from fulfilling his oath.
>Gawyn knows that SS supported Rand, and that is why the Tower fell.
>Everything that SS has touched brought Gawyn's life into utter chaos;
>what reason does he have to optimistically and foolishly assume the
>best around Rand?
>
>As we all know, everything in Randland is NOT the best in the best
>of all possible worlds.
>
<shrug> Let me play trial room lawyer for a moment and say: all this
"evidence" is nondispositive and of limited probative value in
determining Rand's guilt. Rumors and innuencdo, and not a shred of
physical evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. Not even any material
witnesses. In short, a conspiracy theory. I have little use for those
or for the people who buy into them. It is internally consistent, but
completely unsupported. A little Niall-like skepticism would be well
advised here.
An Andoran Prince should be a little more wary about believing
everything he hears.
It's interesting that he is told by Egwene that Rand didn't kill
Morgase, and that he immediately disregards this; he requires that she
produce proof to the contrary. There's no proof one way or the other
available to Gawyn, but he clearly places the burden of proof against
Rand.
>
>As reasonable as any hot-headed young man who thinks that he's broken
>the most important oath in his life, been unable to protect his mother
at her supposed death, etc. Lest we forget, Gaehvin didn't exactly
squash the rumours that Morgase was dead, and implied by Rand's hand.
>
Hmmm...putting hotheaded and reasonable in the same sentence strikes me
as somewhat oxymoronic.
>
>[Flavio says:]
>> >> That hatred, I think, is largely based on jealousy over Egwene
>> >> (and maybe a little incestual jealousy over Elayne?),
>> Ok, I threw in the bit about Elayne for chuckles, but I'm serious as
to Gawyn's jealousy over Egwene: in LoC Egwene views a dream of Gawyn's
in which Gawyn fights Rand to "free her." Egwene is hardly in Rand's
>> clutches, but it is an interesting comment on Gawyn's state of mind.
>
>You threw this in for chuckles? Odd, considering your later post
concerning Sex And Power in Randland.
>
I did not consider the Elayne/Gawyn thread of sufficient importance to
include it in my post on Sex and Power. If you wish to discuss the
particulars of that post, I'd be more than happy to...if the subject
doesn't make you too uncomfortable. :)
>> Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
>> suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home,
and bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've
done it, too, if Egwene had agreed. This sort of thing doesn't exactly
>> inspire confidence.
>
>You look at this scene too literally:
>
>Gawyn was telling Egwene that he would drop everything he holds
important in his life for Egwene, take her somewhere safe and away from
the cares of the world, and pretend that life is normal.
>
>In other words, he is pledging his unconditional, undying love for
her.
>
>Sappy? Yes. Irresponsible? No.
>
I think that Gawyn was entirely serious, and so did Egwene, if I recall
correctly. The man is entirely besotted with her, and I'd expect this
sort of nonsense from him. Thankfully, Egwene possesses sufficient
common sense for both of them. Gawyn really does need someone to lead
him around by the hand.
Flavio Carrillo
Flavio J. Carrillo
Orzel) writes:
>What can he do in Andor?
>For all he knows, there's a price on his head in Caemlyn- if he goes
>running there, Rand fries him. End of rebellion.
Yet we've seen other rebellions spring up elsewhere. And for Rand to
fry him, he's got to find him. Presumably, Gawyn knows enough about
Andor to make this at least somewhat difficult.
>
>He needs to stay out of Andor, and gather support for his House
against al'Thor. The best course would be to find Elayne, but he
doesn't know where she is (other than Siuan's little white lie...).
>
I'd think the best place for him to find support for his House would be
in Andor, not Tar Valon.
>If he stays in Tar Valon, and acts as Elaida's errand boy, he does two
>things: 1) he can indirectly use the Tower's resources to find his
sister and bring her back where she belongs, and 2) he can hopefully
secure Tar Valon backing for his attempt to re-take the throne for
Elayne. And remember, he had already cast his lot with Elaida's faction
in the Tower split- he's stuck backing her.
Use Tower resources? <loud guffaw> The Aes Sedai make a business of
using others, not being used. And if Gawyn thinks he can hustle Elaida,
he is sadly mistaken.
As for being stuck with her, he is neither chained nor rooted to Tar
Valon. He can leave on a horse or his own two legs, if need be.
>
>Where else can he turn? Tear and Cairhien are Rand's, Ilian is
Sammael's, and unreachable to boot. The Borderlands are unlikely to
help, he can't really ask the Whitecloaks to aid him, and the whole
western part of the continent is in chaos.
>
There are Andoran nobles still loyal to the Trakands.
>Note that he's not happy with the situation. He's frustrated as Hell
at the fact that nothing useful is being done to locate Elayne or
re-take Andor- that's why he's running around with his private army and
killing anyone he can. It's a grief therapy thing...
>
An excellent argument, in my view, for undertaking that search himself
and relying upon himself to organize resistance in Andor, rather than
relying on the weak reed of Elaida.
>Based on the information availible to him, Gawyn is doing the right
thing. In fact, he's doing the only thing he _can._
When I lack sufficient information, I try very hard to obtain
additional information. Gawyn isn't looking for more info: he's made up
his mind, and he's made it erroneously and on a set of very dubious
assumptions and rumors.
Flavio Carrillo
Michael D. Steeves
= (Side Note 2: "...Maybe the problems of two people don't add up to a hill
= of beans in this world, but this is _our_hill,_ and these are _our_
= _beans_..." {1 pt.})
Bogart. One of the last True Men. Great flick.
I bought it for the Woman on our first Valentines Day as a couple.
Needless to say, that day we were both hacking up lungs, so we figured
it'd be as good a day as any to order delivery and watch it.
Reminiscently yours,
-darkelf
Ashutosh Razdan
>
>Nynaeve may not be a bitch, but she _is_ an incredibly annoying shrew.
>Far and away my least favorite female character. (My favorite, oddly
>enough, is Berelain, whom all the other main female characters dislike.
>I think she's a lot of fun, myself, although she's gone over the top
>with Perrin.)
>
>
>(sorry I've been scarce around here; been busy with work.)
>
My favorite female character is Lanfear because she is the prettiest.
Too bad she is dead. And although she's a forsaken, she appears
to be a really sweet person. She is by far the best spouse for Rand.
Razdan
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Motorola
Semiconductor Products Sector
raz...@bunt.sps.mot.com
Ashutosh Razdan
>flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) wrote:
>
>
>>Ok, there's been a fair amount of discussion about women characters
>>folks don't care for. For the sake of balance, how about male
>>characters?
>
>>syrupy sanctimonious should get on anybody's nerves, I'd think.
>
>
>Believe it or not, my least favorite male character is Mazrim Taim. I
>don't like the way he acts and I think he's going to double cross
>Rand, which makes him even more despicable. The way he's going out of
>his way to help Rand at the last minute is really angering, since I
>believe it's only to gain Rand's trust.
>
>Rick Allen
>
My least favorite male character is Perrin. I seem to think
he is retarded (or, to be politically correct, intelectually
challenged).
Boy, am I glad he's not the Dragon Reborn! Can you imagine
what would happen at the Last Battle when he is facing the
Dark One? He would sit there and consider all his options
and evaluate the consequences of his actions, while the Dark
One would calmly thrust his sword into Perrin's heart.
So much for the Dragon Reborn!!
P. Korda
In article <4068sj$k...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Flavio J. Carrillo <flav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Ok, I'll accept that maybe we haven't gotten the most objective
>appraisal of Galad.
No kidding. I think that there is a lot to Galad that we haven't seen
yet, simply because most of the interactions we have of him are with
Elayne.
>can be taken to an inflexible extreme. The art of statecraft requires
>more than mere honor: a Prince must play both the lion and the fox.
>(Hey, it's good enough for Machiavelli, right?) Galad exhibits lion
>like integrity in the extreme, but I've seen precious little of the fox
>to date.
Well, he's also not a statesman. He's not in line for any throne (no,
I don't want to go into the Cairhien thing again--HE doesn't expect to
become the king of Cairhien). I mean, his life really didn't have that
much direction until he joined the WCs. I mean, he was destined to be
a ignored noble/general/advisor in Queen Elayne's court, or married
off to some foreign royalty to cement an alliance.
Galad is not as stupid or blind as people seem to think he is. He
knew, or at least suspected that Elayne had no intention of returning
to Andor after he met her in Ghealdan. But he knew he had to get her
out of there before seroius fighting broke out, so he didn't press the
point.
I'm not sure that if I met him in person, I'd LIKE him, but that is
the case with most of the characters in the book. I could get along
with Perrin when his wife wasn't around, and Min, and Herid Fel, but I
dunno about the rest. However, what I like in fictional characters =!
what I like in people I have to deal with. Galad is _interesting_, and
I think there is more to him than meets Elayne's eye.
wrt Gawyn: He's my least favorite male character. He's so ANNOYING. I
understand the reasons WHY he's annoying, but he just rubs me the
wrong way.
Pam Korda | To get the WOTFAQ between postings,
ko...@mtolympus.ari.net | E-mail me, or ftp it from
The Bossiest Female on the Net | ftp.cc.gatech.edu, directory
FAQ CONTAINS LOC SPOILERS!!! | /pub/people/viren/jordan/
-------WOT INDEX: <http://www2.ari.net/home/korda/RJsites.html>--------
Elizabeth K. Johnson
vote for Mazrim Taim. Whether the guy is Demandred or not, he's annoying.
He's got some mysterious, possibly evil, personal agenda, and every time we see
him or his little minions I wish I could strangle him.
oil...@wam.umd.edu (Chad R Orzel) wrote:
>(Side Note 1: Once, just _once_ I'd like to see someone say "yes" to one
>of these offers. "Screw the Fate of the World, Baby, let's do the Nasty!"
>But maybe that's just me...)
>
On a similar TAN:
Just once I'd like to see someone say "Yes" to this offer from some Dark Power:
"Will you join me at my right hand and have power beyond your wildest dreams?"
Since the second part of the question is always a variation on: "Or live in
powerless squalor the rest of your short life", I have never quite understood
why more people didn't take option A.... :)
Beth
------------------------------------
All opinions expressed are those of
the Forsaken who took over my body.
------------------------------------
Jeff Smith
>In article <406aoj$q...@news.nd.edu>,
>jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu (Joseph Rosenfeld) wrote:
>
>> Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997) (rsl...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
>> : Joseph Rosenfeld (jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu) wrote:
>> : : Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
>> : : do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
>> : : inadequacies.
>> : She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
>> : age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
>> : get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
>> : she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
>>
Chad R Orzel
Flavio J. Carrillo <flav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
{Nothing in this article changes anything from my lengthy analysis, posted
earlier today. Hence, I'm not going to comment on it, save for the little
bit below:}
>Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
>suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home, and
>bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've done
>it, too, if Egwene had agreed. This sort of thing doesn't exactly
>inspire confidence.
>
"Bump fuzzies?!?"
Even for this family newsfroup, that's a bit odd....
Seriously, I don't think that remark was meant to be taken seriously.
It's a classic example of overly dramatic and goopily romantic hyperbole-
he knows he can't _really_ ditch it all and run away somewhere, but he
says that as a way of showing his undying love, etc., etc.
(Side Note 1: Once, just _once_ I'd like to see someone say "yes" to one
of these offers. "Screw the Fate of the World, Baby, let's do the Nasty!"
But maybe that's just me...)
(Side Note 2: "...Maybe the problems of two people don't add up to a hill
of beans in this world, but this is _our_hill,_ and these are _our_
_beans_..." {1 pt.})
There are legitimate reasons to criticize Gawyn. This ain't one of 'em.
Later,
John Novak
> She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
>age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
>get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
>she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
Er, crap.
One does not cover up one's inadequacies by going about bopping
people with a stick. Nynaeve, in the beginning of the series,
does just this.
So, no, I would not act like Nynaeve-- precisely, I would not
become physically abusive-- to cover up my inadequacies.
Would you?
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
http://cegt201.bradley.edu/~jsn/index.html
The Humblest Man on the Net
andy
<A lot of good things deleted in between>
JR> No, she is much different. I almost think she is insane, at
JR> times. I wish she would just pull her damne braid out of
JR> her head, and then scream for several days before she could
JR> stop. She is half of one of the coolest women in the entire
JR> Randland. On the other hand, she needs psychological help.
JR> If I were ohne of the Forsaken, I would taunt her with
JR> "bloody" this and "flaming" that and throw forkroot tea at
JR> her.
I wouldn't go so far to call the woman insane.. although, she is very
uncertain about herself, and uncertain about which actions to make. She was a
former Wisdom, a person highly respected and trusted by others. Now, she is an
accepted, with persons who literally disrespect her.
Somehow, I feel pity with the woman. But sometimes she deserves a couple of
gallons of forkroot tea, I guess!
JR> Sometimes I think Elayne is just as twisted, but I guess I
JR> like them both. They are just very very frustrating to read
JR> about. I find it very hard to concentrate on the parts with
JR> those two, and as a result, I miss some things I would have
JR> otherwise have caught.
Elayne is just as Nynaeve.. a daughter-heir to the throne of Andor. She
is used to give orders, not obey them and jump at every other move someone else
orders her.
Take Care,
Andy
=-------------------------------------=--------------------------------------=
| Andy Pettersson | (The last person who |
| WWW: http://www.bastad.se/~andy/ | advertised on this spot |
| E-mail: an...@sarah.ct.se | was shot due to lack of |
| FidoNet: 2:200/209.4 | money) |
=-------------------------------------=--------------------------------------=
... Windows 3.0: More holes than you can count.
Flavio J. Carrillo
Orzel) writes:
>I hate your quoting software, btw. Are you adding these quote marks by
>hand? How'd you get it to skip every other line?
Hmmm...still getting the hang of netcom. Only been online a few weeks,
so bear with me.
>I think you're too bloody literal...
>This is not a serious offer- if nothing else, the "come away with me,
we can be safe and happy, for a little while" line is a standard
romantic fantasy trapping. Just about every pair of doomed lovers in
history have used some variation on it- it's a _classic._
>
>Egwene is moved by the offer, but neither of them really takes it as
>serious.
Grump. This is the sort of thing about fantasy that I can't stand.
>>A Prince willing to chuck responsibility to pursue a romantic
dalliance in the midst of a disaster isn't grounds for criticism????
Wow. I think that Morgase and Elayne would disagree with this.
>>
>Not if he's not serious. Roll with my hypothesis, Oh Legalistic One...
>
It's not clear that he _wasn't_ serious. Grease your mind with my
hypothesis, Oh Oily One....
Flavio Carrillo
Terry Miles
>In article <405ej1$b...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Flavio J. Carrillo <flav...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>What can he do in Andor?
>For all he knows, there's a price on his head in Caemlyn- if he goes
>running there, Rand fries him. End of rebellion.
If Gawyn knows that Rand controls Caemlyn, he should also know that
Rand's power in Andor extends little past the city itself. While I
not saying that going to Andor to start a rebellion is the wisest
course, it is a option.
____________________________________________________________
Terry Miles jtm...@erinet.com
"He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout."
Flavio J. Carrillo
Razdan) writes:
>
>
>
>My favorite female character is Lanfear because she is the prettiest.
>Too bad she is dead. And although she's a forsaken, she appears
>to be a really sweet person. She is by far the best spouse for Rand.
>
>Razdan
>
Hmmm...well, beauty is a pretty good criteria for a bunkmate du jour
(or du soir, as the case may be). It's rather insufficient a basis to
form a lasting relationship on.
As for Lanfear's sweetness, I recommend you read the FAQ; this may
change your mind. Basically, Lanfear's desire for Rand boils down to
nothing more than a desire for the power he holds more than the man
himself. Rand is the ultimate "success object." ;)
Flavio Carrillo
Chad R Orzel
>Orzel) writes:
>>
>>In article <4064me$i...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
I hate your quoting software, btw. Are you adding these quote marks by
hand? How'd you get it to skip every other line?
>>>Gawyn showed himself willing to chuck all responsibility when he
>>>suggested to Egwene that they elope and go off to a country home, and
>>>bump fuzzies while the world goes to hell around them. He would've
>doneit, too, if Egwene had agreed. This sort of thing doesn't exactly
>>>inspire confidence.
>>>
>>Seriously, I don't think that remark was meant to be taken seriously.
>>It's a classic example of overly dramatic and goopily romantic
>hyperbole-he knows he can't _really_ ditch it all and run away
>somewhere, but he says that as a way of showing his undying love, etc.,
>etc.
>
>Well, I'm not so sure this was merely a precatory remark; my impression
>is that Gawyn made it in earnest. I also think that Egwene took it in
>earnest. It certainly fits in with Gawyn's rash character.
>
I think you're too bloody literal...
This is not a serious offer- if nothing else, the "come away with me, we
can be safe and happy, for a little while" line is a standard romantic
fantasy trapping. Just about every pair of doomed lovers in history have
used some variation on it- it's a _classic._
Egwene is moved by the offer, but neither of them really takes it as
serious.
>>There are legitimate reasons to criticize Gawyn. This ain't one of
>'em.
>
>A Prince willing to chuck responsibility to pursue a romantic dalliance
>in the midst of a disaster isn't grounds for criticism???? Wow. I think
>that Morgase and Elayne would disagree with this.
>
Not if he's not serious. Roll with my hypothesis, Oh Legalistic One...
Later,
OilCan
("...maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of
your life...")
Joseph Rosenfeld
: > : Joseph Rosenfeld (jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu) wrote:
[... munch ...]
: > No, I would not. I have held the reins of power and responsibility and
: > have not acted that way. Nynaeve chose to be this way, and it is not
: > right to make all these excuses for her--they do not change her, you see.
: [personal flame where Joseph did NOT get the joke munched]
: I'm kind of sure that you have not been in a position as high as Nynaeve,
: Joseph, unless there's something you're hiding. Nynaeve was basically
: in Director of the Emond Field Hospital, Council Liaison, and Co-Mayor
: all rolled into one -- at the ripe old age of about 23, wasn't it?
: To compare your life with Nynaeve's is sort of silly, anyways. You may
: have had different ways of handling the situations that came your way,
: but that doesn't mean that Nynaeve is weak or has shortcomings because
: she adapted in that way to her situation!
I am not comparing my life to a fictional character, just pointing out
that people react to the circumstances life throws at them differently.
Nynaeve was apparently the bully even when things were going good, and I
would wager she would not have given up her status as even Wisdom for a
moment, if she could help it. I like her to some degree, and have
compassion for her, but she is still in many ways very unlikable, no
matter what you save, Caveman Kenn. She has a lot of growing and
developing to do still before I will LIKE her. I admire her skills,
especially when she defeated Moghedien, TWICE, and when she healed
severing. She has more potential than any other woman in Randland. She
should start living up to that potential before Rand is destroyed while
she tugs at her braids and worries about who uses which curse word around
her, little Miss Perfect Aes Sedai.
Cowboy
Chad R Orzel
>Orzel) writes:
>
What are you _doing_ with the quote marks?
{of Gawyn}
>>What can he do in Andor?
>>For all he knows, there's a price on his head in Caemlyn- if he goes
>>running there, Rand fries him. End of rebellion.
>
>Yet we've seen other rebellions spring up elsewhere. And for Rand to
>fry him, he's got to find him. Presumably, Gawyn knows enough about
>Andor to make this at least somewhat difficult.
>
Yes. Rebellions consisting of a half-dozen Lords plotting in back rooms,
or a dozen Tairens squatting in Haddon Mirk, hoping that Rand doesn't
send the Aiel after them.
>>He needs to stay out of Andor, and gather support for his House
>>against al'Thor. The best course would be to find Elayne, but he
>>doesn't know where she is (other than Siuan's little white lie...).
>>
>
>I'd think the best place for him to find support for his House would be
>in Andor, not Tar Valon.
>
Again, support from whom?
Yes, there are Andoran nobles who are less than happy with Rand sitting
in front of the throne, but they can't provide open support (for fear
of being killed by Rand), nor can they provide enough support to get
rid of several hundred thousand Aiel.
He's stuck with the same problem Morgase is facing- there's no-one in
Andor who will be able to back a successful bid for the throne. Morgase
managed to alienate most of the nobility, Rahvin ran off the few loyal
Guardsmen, and without Elayne, Gawyn has no-one to _put_ on the throne
if he managed to seize it. He can't rally much support that way.
>>If he stays in Tar Valon, and acts as Elaida's errand boy, he does two
>>things: 1) he can indirectly use the Tower's resources to find his
>>sister and bring her back where she belongs, and 2) he can hopefully
>>secure Tar Valon backing for his attempt to re-take the throne for
>>Elayne. And remember, he had already cast his lot with Elaida's faction
>>in the Tower split- he's stuck backing her.
>
>Use Tower resources? <loud guffaw> The Aes Sedai make a business of
>using others, not being used. And if Gawyn thinks he can hustle Elaida,
>he is sadly mistaken.
>
He doesn't have much choice. He needs to rally some kind of support
from outside Andor. And so far as he can tell, the Tower is really the
only power in RandLand proper that stands a chance of resisting the
Dragon Reborn.
Plus, it's in Elaida's interest to find Elayne and put her back in
charge of Andor- she has _zero_ influence with Rand there, but an Aes
Sedai Queen (well, a Queen with _ties_ to the Aes Sedai) gains her a
great deal of influence. He's not _using_ the Tower (note that I said
"indirectly use Tower resources." In other words: "Hang around and wait
for Elaida to find Elayne.") per se- they're moving in a mutually
advantageous direction.
>As for being stuck with her, he is neither chained nor rooted to Tar
>Valon. He can leave on a horse or his own two legs, if need be.
>
I meant that he's stuck with Elaida's half of the Tower- he can't cast
his lot with the other Aes Sedai at this stage. And the Aes Sedai would
seem to be the only people likely to be able to withstand Rand. After
all, they held off Hawkwing, and the Aiel...
>>Note that he's not happy with the situation. He's frustrated as Hell
>>at the fact that nothing useful is being done to locate Elayne or
>>re-take Andor- that's why he's running around with his private army and
>>killing anyone he can. It's a grief therapy thing...
>
>An excellent argument, in my view, for undertaking that search himself
He's _one_man._ The Tower has thousands of spies scattered all across
the continent. They're going to find her a Hell of a lot quicker than
he is, and there's not much he can do about that. Better by far to try
to ingratiate himself with the Tower, and let them do the finding for
him.
>and relying upon himself to organize resistance in Andor, rather than
>relying on the weak reed of Elaida.
>
Without Elayne, he has no claim to anything. He is useful only insofar
as he is Elayne's brother. He can't sit on the throne himself, and if
they're going to depose House Trakand altogether (for lack of a Queen
from that line), having Gawyn around only muddies the metaphorical
waters of the succession- what happens to his heirs?
>>Based on the information availible to him, Gawyn is doing the right
>>thing. In fact, he's doing the only thing he _can._
>
>When I lack sufficient information, I try very hard to obtain
>additional information. Gawyn isn't looking for more info: he's made up
>his mind, and he's made it erroneously and on a set of very dubious
>assumptions and rumors.
>
As far as he knows, he _has_ sufficient information. Everything he knows
up until the start of LoC suggests that he's made the right call. No-one
knows that Morgase is alive. He has no reason to doubt that Rand killed
his mother. And he has no-one to turn to for help, other than the Tower.
What happens after he meets with Egwene is a different matter.
Later,
OilCan
John Novak
> Exactly - which she does not do at all. She is, in fact, much
>_less_ bent on attack and revenge than most characters. Take her reaction
>to Moghedien - here she is, on the other end of the a'dam, with complete
>control over a person who has hurt her physically and emotionally....and
>what Nynaeve thinks about is NOT "how can I hurt her" but "how can I
>bring her to trial and justice." Nynaeve's interest in justice is one of
>the things I like best about her.
This is a _vast_ oversimplification of Nynaeve's rather complex
character. Do recall that we're speaking of the woman who is
determined to become Aes Sedai not only to help protect Egwene
from them, but to have revenge on Moiraine, not only for taking
Emond's Fielders out into the real world, but for having the
temerity to have a prior claim on Lan.
Less bent on revenge? Nynaeve was the _first_ of the characters
to develop a revenge motive.
Nynaeve's character is currently changing, however. From a
literary standpoint, she's a fascinating character. On a
personal level, I doubt I could have stood to be in the same room
with her through the first five books. But if Jordan continues
her character development as I suspect he will, she may well
develop into the female character I respect the most.
John Novak
>To compare your life with Nynaeve's is sort of silly, anyways. You may
>have had different ways of handling the situations that came your way,
>but that doesn't mean that Nynaeve is weak or has shortcomings because
>she adapted in that way to her situation!
He made the comparison because Becky asked to do so, point blank.
And what sort of justifying nonsense _is_ thhis, anyway?
One does not prove one's maturity and responsibility by hitting
people fifty years your elder when they refer to you as 'child'.
Not where I'm from, anyway.
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
: My favorite female character is Lanfear because she is the prettiest.
: Too bad she is dead. And although she's a forsaken, she appears
: to be a really sweet person. She is by far the best spouse for Rand.
Ouch. Just ouch.
Has this guy met Roy?
Becky/Nynaeve
Joseph Rosenfeld
[... munch ... (sorry Becky)]
: Less bent on revenge? Nynaeve was the _first_ of the characters
: to develop a revenge motive.
I think this says it as well as is possible about Nynaeve. John is right
on here, and when I have criticized Nynaeve I have never criticized RJ for
his masterful creation of a character whom I think is fated to become
the coolest and most powerful woman in Randland. I compliment RJ for
his creation and development of Nynaeve, and John for saying it so well
in this newsgroup.
: Nynaeve's character is currently changing, however. From a
: literary standpoint, she's a fascinating character. On a
: personal level, I doubt I could have stood to be in the same room
: with her through the first five books. But if Jordan continues
: her character development as I suspect he will, she may well
: develop into the female character I respect the most.
Best,
Cowboy, riding a steed named Linux
Chad R Orzel
>>For all he knows, there's a price on his head in Caemlyn- if he goes
>>running there, Rand fries him. End of rebellion.
>
>Rand's power in Andor extends little past the city itself. While I
>not saying that going to Andor to start a rebellion is the wisest
>course, it is a option.
>
There's no good reason (from Gawyn's perspective) why Rand shouldn't be
able to grind the entire country beneath his heel in a very short time-
in principle, at least, Rand has several hundred thousand Aiel availible
for the subjugation of Andor.
Aiel who can also be used to hunt down members of the Andoran Royal
Family...
Later,
OilCan
Andy Carlson
>It's interesting that he is told by Egwene that Rand didn't kill
>Morgase, and that he immediately disregards this; he requires that she
>produce proof to the contrary. There's no proof one way or the other
>available to Gawyn, but he clearly places the burden of proof against
>Rand.
>
I don't have the books with me, but I do not think it went like this. I
beleive Egwene said something like "Gawyn, Rand did not kill your
mother. I cannot proveit yet". Egwene offered the proof that she did
not have yet. I do not remember anything, even after this, that Gawyn
required the proof.
Andy Carlson email: an...@andyc.carenet.org
http://bjc.carenet.org/~ts55428
Get the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time FAQ by mailing to
'ts5...@spectrum.carenet.org' with a subject line of 'Jordan FAQ'
Flavio J. Carrillo
Carlson) writes:
>>
>
>I don't have the books with me, but I do not think it went like this.
I
>beleive Egwene said something like "Gawyn, Rand did not kill your
>mother. I cannot proveit yet". Egwene offered the proof that she did
>not have yet. I do not remember anything, even after this, that Gawyn
>required the proof.
>
Yeah, I think it did go like this, but my read is that she offered the
proof because it was implicitly required by Galad.
FLavio Carrillo
Jeff Smith
On the dark side: 1. Padan Fain
2. Kadare
On neutral side: 1. Pedron Niall & all of the whitecloaks except Galad.
(Since Jordan has 1 organized religion (unless you call
the Aes Sedai a religion) and portrays it uniformly
negatively, does this mean he is against organized
religion?)
On the light side: 1. Rand - I get frustrated with his lack of communcation
skills--he doesn't reach out to people, he reacts to
them.
He doesn't think in terms of a team effort, but takes
all responsibility on himself.
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
: My least favorite male character is Perrin. I seem to think
: he is retarded (or, to be politically correct, intelectually
: challenged).
: Boy, am I glad he's not the Dragon Reborn! Can you imagine
: what would happen at the Last Battle when he is facing the
: Dark One? He would sit there and consider all his options
: and evaluate the consequences of his actions, while the Dark
: One would calmly thrust his sword into Perrin's heart.
: So much for the Dragon Reborn!!
Oh, horrors - someone who actually THINKS before he acts! Gee,
it's a good thing more characters in the series aren't like
that...otherwise who knows what kind of mess we'd be in!
More on why Perrin is my _favorite_ male character when I have
more time and less work and my books next to me....
Becky/Nynaeve
PS: Come on, would Jordan waste all those incredible scenes on a pointless
character?
Sara J. Lipowitz
him much from the start, because he's such a stock character (the
skirt-chasing gambler), but he really made himself odious in the last book,
with his trying to order Elayne and Nynaeve and Egwene about like they're
children and even hit them for not obeying. Having grown up with Nynaeve
and Egwene, he should know by now that they are neither fools nor
weaklings, and in spite of all his carping about Elayne's royal attitude
problem, he never gave her a real chance to be nice to him because he
decided he had her pegged from the start. I think too that he is jealous of
her sense of her own authority, as demonstrated when she won over the
loyalty of the Band of the Red Hand.
While I understand his resentment of Aes Sedai is partly a holdover from
his past lives, what have they ever done to him in this life other than
save him a few times from his own stupidity, like when he took the Shadar
Logoth dagger after being warned by Lan and Moiraine not to touch anything?
The fact that his life is so complicated right now is not because of Aes
Sedai, but because of who he is and the part he has to play to fulfill his
destiny. For him to blame Aes Sedai for that makes about as much sense as
Nynaeve blaming them for taking Rand and Perrin and Mat and Egwene from the
village, where if they had stayed they would have surely been hunted down
and killed by Trollocs, not to mention getting everyone else in the Two
Rivers killed too. I can understand not wanting to get mixed up with Aes
Sedai, but for a guy in his position it's inevitable, so he could quit
whining about it.
--
**************************************************************************
"There are no arbitrary dragons." -- Marjorie Kellogg, "The Book of Earth"
Sara J. Lipowitz
lin...@interaccess.com
**************************************************************************
John Novak
>Well, actually, one does. That is, in the sense that "one" is a
>general pronoun. Many, many people do try to cover up their own
>feelings of inadequacy by bullying.
Be pedantic. Of course people actually do this, but it doesn't
do any good, because people who about beating up on people in
order to cover their feelings of inadequacy only shows them all
the more.
And what I don't like is this sense of justification that I seem
to be reading in these posts, that because Nynaeve was put into a
position of authority at a young age, her temper and attitude are
somehow justified.
>No, this doesn't mean that you have to like a person who does so. We
>all now that you don't like Nynaeve.
Oversimplification. I've said it before, I'll say it again-- I
don't like the early Nynaeve. I liked Nynaeve more than any
other female character I can think of, though, by the time we got
to LoC, and I think that trend will continue through the later
books.
[...]
>Finally, unlike many of the characters, she has come to realize her
>shortcomings, and has a desire to overcome them.
Everything else, and especially the above two lines, I agree
with. I've been predicting that her experiences with Moghedien,
and the whole situation in tFoH would provide the catalyst for
her character growth for over a year, now.
It still doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of the
early Nynaeve was, in my opinion, highly unjustified, nor the
probable fact that the early Nynaeve and I would have been at
each other's throats, were ever to impossibly meet. (And lest
you think I'm unaware, I am fully cognizant that the simple
statement, "That's because you are too much alike, you and she,"
bears more than a bit of relevance.)
>Some people concentrate on the bad points, some on the good points.
>Saintly characters are boring. Characters need some dirt to keep them
>human, and to help us identify with them.
I like to think I'm a realist. When people look like they're
trying to saint her, I point out the flaws. When people look
like they're trying to condemn her, I point out the good parts.
John Novak
>Rand is the Antichrist?
And the Christ, all rolled up into one, big, pulsating mass.
>But, yes, there's been growth and development.
>The LoC Nynave is improved over the original version...if only
>marginally. ;)
Far more than marginally.
There's only two things Nynaeve really did in LoC that annoyed
me. First, she didn't tear Salidar down around the Aes Sedai's
ears, on being sent back to pot-scrubbing after Healing Logain,
Siuan, and Leane. I _really_ wanted to see her pull a Milamber
(ObFeist) during that scene. Second, the kicking thing, with
Mat.
Other than that, I thought she was great.
And having had Nynaeve gone through her character growth _now_
rather than after being hooked up with Lan (as we all know she
later will be) was a good way for Jordan to snip off arguments
like, "Yeah, but she only became a cool character after Lan got
there to calm her down."
>>Finally, unlike many of the characters, she has come to realize her
>>shortcomings, and has a desire to overcome them.
>Nynaeve has a very difficult time acknowledging her deficiencies; she's
>getting better, but at a nearly glacial rate.
I disagree.
It was all but nonexistant, until about the middle of tFoH.
Then, the overwhelming problems she was facing and shouldering
almost alone began to drive home the need for her to change, and
the Birgitte situation was the final crack in the dam.
After that, she spent a bit wavering around, trying to figure out
how best to change and what to change into, and now she's quite
firmly along the road to real change.
I think it's quite realistic, and quite neat.
>I have to agree with this. As wildly annoying as Nynaeve can be, Jordan
>has certainly created a memorable character. I can't help but to think
>that a year under the tutelage of the WO would do her a lot of good,
>though.
In much the same way as I'm a bit too old and a bit too stubborn
for modern military training to properly take hold of me, I
suspect Nynaeve is a little too old and a little too stubborn for
the Wise Ones to enforce any real change on her that she does not
wish to accept.
P. Korda
John Novak <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>Er, crap.
>One does not cover up one's inadequacies by going about bopping
>people with a stick. Nynaeve, in the beginning of the series,
>does just this.
Well, actually, one does. That is, in the sense that "one" is a
general pronoun. Many, many people do try to cover up their own
feelings of inadequacy by bullying.
No, this doesn't mean that you have to like a person who does so. We
all now that you don't like Nynaeve.
Nynaeve is, initially, presented as a heinous shrew. Thus, the
thwapping with sticks, etc. As TEOTW progresses, Nynaeve's horizons
are broadened a great deal. She falls in love. She discovers that she
is something that she's been taught to hate and fear all her life. She
fails in protecting her flock, and finally, discovers that a member of
that flock may be the Randland equivalent of the Antichrist, and, at
the very least, is destined to become a horrible danger to society and
be destroyed in the process, and _there is nothing she can do about
any of it_, no matter how much she yells. The seeds of _character
growth_ have been planted.
We Nynaeve fans like her because she is a really complex character.
She has many negative points, but she also has many good points--she
is loyal, determined, and she _tries_. No matter what the odds are
against her, she is consistantly willing to risk herself to help those
she cares about, and who she regards as her responsibility. She doesn't
give up.
Finally, unlike many of the characters, she has come to realize her
shortcomings, and has a desire to overcome them.
Some people concentrate on the bad points, some on the good points.
Saintly characters are boring. Characters need some dirt to keep them
human, and to help us identify with them.
Pam Korda | To get the WOTFAQ between postings,
P. Korda
John Novak <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>Less bent on revenge? Nynaeve was the _first_ of the characters
>to develop a revenge motive.
She's also the first of the characters to drop it. She isn't really
concerned with revenge any more; sure, she doesn't LIKE Moiraine, but
I can imagine that it would be very easy to dislike Moiraine, who can
manipulate people without them even noticing it. Ny's main goals are
no longer revenge on Moiraine. She wants to a) learn how to channel
w/o blocking herself and b) heal people.
Also note that while she thought she wanted revenge on Moir., she
never realy acted on it when she had the chance. Even in TEOTW, she
helped Moiraine many times, when it would have been easy enough to let
her suffer. She never was so selfish as to try to force Lan to ask
Moiraine to break their bond--she knows that would hurt him too much.
If revenge had been her greatest motivation, she'd have tried it
anyway.
John Novak
>After reading LoC, my least favorite male character is Mat. I didn't like
>him much from the start, because he's such a stock character (the
>skirt-chasing gambler), but he really made himself odious in the last book,
>with his trying to order Elayne and Nynaeve and Egwene about like they're
>children and even hit them for not obeying.
WHOAH, now!
Hang on _just_ a blood and bloody ashes minute here.
Let's review the last book, so far as interactions with Mat and
Egwene (and the Aes Sedai) go.
Mat is sent off by Rand to 'rescue' Egwene and Elayne, as Rand
has good reason to believe that Egwene is in _deep_ shit, and
Elayne is just plain needed.
Mat finds them, and sees them apparently playing at being Amyrlin
Seat and advisors. Now we had been prepared since tDR for Egwene
being raised to Amyrlin Seat. Mat has not. As far as Mat knows,
it's flaming impossible. Not only Egwene about ten to twelve
years younger than Siuan, previously the youngest Amyrlin ever,
there's already an Amyrlin in the White Tower, and Egwene isn't
an Aes Sedai yet. And Mat knows this.
Mat says a few wrong words, though they're fairly understandable,
given his knowledge of the situation. And the only person
getting abusive in the situation is _Nynaeve_! Nynaeve kicked
Mat. Mat did not. Once. Ever. Physically retaliate for that,
or any other slight, real or imagined. He may have scared
Nynaeve, but that was as much a consequence of his amulet
stopping them from channeling at him as anything he did.
Where you get the idea that Mat hit them, I don't know.
But let's continue the scene to its bitter end.
I recall Egwene and Elayne and Nynaeve coldheartedly using the
word he gave to Rand against him, making him follow them to Ebou
Dar like a lap dog. Not Nice.
I recall Mat, for some reason, reminding the rest of Salidar--
including the Aes Sedai-- just exactly who was and was not
Amyrlin, by dismounting and bowing.
We won't mention Elayne's making the gate too short to ride
through, because that might not have been her fault. But we will
mention the arrogant manner in which Elayne tried to lay claim to
his amulet. I'd have laughed in her face.
And we will mention the other two Aes Sedai, who joyfully threw
road shit at his back, to see if they could still affect him with
the One Power by heaving objects at him.
Mat, insufferable?
The road goes both ways.
> Having grown up with Nynaeve
>and Egwene, he should know by now that they are neither fools nor
>weaklings, and in spite of all his carping about Elayne's royal attitude
>problem, he never gave her a real chance to be nice to him because he
>decided he had her pegged from the start.
Likewise Elayne with Mat, all the way back from tDR, when they
first meet. Elayne treats him like a subject, which makes no
sense given how long the Two Rivers have been functionally
autonomous, and even less sense given that Caemlyn sent no help
to the Two Rivers during the recent troubles with Trollocs.
> I think too that he is jealous of
>her sense of her own authority, as demonstrated when she won over the
>loyalty of the Band of the Red Hand.
Elayne _has_ no authority over Mat or the Band.
Flavio J. Carrillo
I'd say the shrew has not yet been tamed.
Thus, the thwapping with sticks, etc. As TEOTW progresses, Nynaeve's
horizons
>are broadened a great deal. She falls in love. She discovers that she
>is something that she's been taught to hate and fear all her life. She
>fails in protecting her flock, and finally, discovers that a member of
>that flock may be the Randland equivalent of the Antichrist, and, at
>the very least, is destined to become a horrible danger to society and
>be destroyed in the process, and _there is nothing she can do about
>any of it_, no matter how much she yells. The seeds of _character
>growth_ have been planted.
Rand is the Antichrist? But, yes, there's been growth and development.
The LoC Nynave is improved over the original version...if only
marginally. ;)
>
>We Nynaeve fans like her because she is a really complex character.
>She has many negative points, but she also has many good points--she
>is loyal, determined, and she _tries_. No matter what the odds are
>against her, she is consistantly willing to risk herself to help those
>she cares about, and who she regards as her responsibility. She
doesn't
>give up.
She certainly makes life complex for everyone around her. ;) I will
grudgingly admit that Nynaeve possesses a certain nobility and
fortitude of character; her moral compass points clearly in the right
direction. Problem is, this fortitude at times becomes simple
churlishness and mule-like stubborness. This statue's got clay clear up
to it's armpits.
>
>Finally, unlike many of the characters, she has come to realize her
>shortcomings, and has a desire to overcome them.
Nynaeve has a very difficult time acknowledging her deficiencies; she's
getting better, but at a nearly glacial rate.
>
>Some people concentrate on the bad points, some on the good points.
Maybe we've been a bit unfair to her.
>Saintly characters are boring. Characters need some dirt to keep them
>human, and to help us identify with them.
>
I have to agree with this. As wildly annoying as Nynaeve can be, Jordan
has certainly created a memorable character. I can't help but to think
that a year under the tutelage of the WO would do her a lot of good,
though.
Flavio Carrillo
Joseph Rosenfeld
: In <40bv1e$f...@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) writes:
[munch]
: >But, yes, there's been growth and development.
: >The LoC Nynave is improved over the original version...if only
: >marginally. ;)
: Far more than marginally.
: There's only two things Nynaeve really did in LoC that annoyed
: me. First, she didn't tear Salidar down around the Aes Sedai's
: ears, on being sent back to pot-scrubbing after Healing Logain,
: Siuan, and Leane. I _really_ wanted to see her pull a Milamber
: (ObFeist) during that scene. Second, the kicking thing, with
: Mat.
Yes, but she still treats men like dogs, and only Lan is treated
differently. If she cannot change this part of her I will not be able to
respect her any more than I did (not) in tEotW. I also think if she
hadn't the backbone to stand up to the AS, then she should keep on
scrubbing pots. For someone with such a big mouth she really has not
learned when to use it. To me, the episode with Mat showed how LITTLE she
has REALLY grown up.
: Other than that, I thought she was great.
[munch]
: And having had Nynaeve gone through her character growth _now_
: rather than after being hooked up with Lan (as we all know she
: later will be) was a good way for Jordan to snip off arguments
: like, "Yeah, but she only became a cool character after Lan got
: there to calm her down."
Unless Lan is murdered by Moghedien right in front of Nynaeve. I still
half expect that to occur.
: >>Finally, unlike many of the characters, she has come to realize her
: >>shortcomings, and has a desire to overcome them.
: >Nynaeve has a very difficult time acknowledging her deficiencies; she's
: >getting better, but at a nearly glacial rate.
But where do we see her acknowledging her deficiencies? She complains
about being a coward then still bullies Mat when she finally gets a chance
to deal with someone not able to channel. I remain totally unconvinced
about her reform. No parole yet for Nynaeve!
: I disagree.
: It was all but nonexistant, until about the middle of tFoH.
: Then, the overwhelming problems she was facing and shouldering
: almost alone began to drive home the need for her to change, and
: the Birgitte situation was the final crack in the dam.
: After that, she spent a bit wavering around, trying to figure out
: how best to change and what to change into, and now she's quite
: firmly along the road to real change.
: I think it's quite realistic, and quite neat.
: >I have to agree with this. As wildly annoying as Nynaeve can be, Jordan
: >has certainly created a memorable character. I can't help but to think
OK, she has changed some, I admit, but until her bullying disappears, and
until she stops her incessant whining, I will remain in the "please kill
Lan so Nynaeve can totally lose it" camp. Maybe Rand can practice
juggling her into outer space, or perhaps Taim could line her up for
Ashaman target practice. Disguise her as Kennnnnnnnnnnnnn "You stole my
idea on Usenet," and fire away!
Cowboy
Will Zuidema
[snipped post.. sorry. 8)]
|Oh, horrors - someone who actually THINKS before he acts! Gee,
|it's a good thing more characters in the series aren't like
|that...otherwise who knows what kind of mess we'd be in!
|More on why Perrin is my _favorite_ male character when I have
|more time and less work and my books next to me....
Oh, Come on, Nyn...
We all know you like his well-turned calves. 8)
Will Z, of the Will Collective
(And the muscled legs.. and the well-muscled chest...)
Andy Carlson
>Yeah, I think it did go like this, but my read is that she offered the
>proof because it was implicitly required by Galad.
When did Galad show up there? :)
Phetsy Calderon
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
> In <40br18$9...@ari.net> ko...@mtolympus.ari.net (P. Korda) writes:
> And what I don't like is this sense of justification that I seem
> to be reading in these posts, that because Nynaeve was put into a
> position of authority at a young age, her temper and attitude are
> somehow justified.
Justified? No -- but it sure explains the hell out of it. And I, for
one, am willing to cut Ny a lotta slack on this one, because I do
believe that it is quite possible to get in so far over one's emotional
head that you lose sight of what you're doing. Maturity tends to cure
this. Trust me -- I know.
> It still doesn't change the fact that the behaviour of the
> early Nynaeve was, in my opinion, highly unjustified, nor the
> probable fact that the early Nynaeve and I would have been at
> each other's throats, were ever to impossibly meet.
Nice to know there are interesting women out there, eh?
> (And lest
> you think I'm unaware, I am fully cognizant that the simple
> statement, "That's because you are too much alike, you and she,"
> bears more than a bit of relevance.)
Hermph? Ny is not particularly witty in an acerbically ironic
way, nor consciously fair-minded (though she's trying). Mmmm,
lessee, she does have dark hair...
Phetsy
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only native Californian on the planet who knows
that Chardonnay is carbolic acid's secret ID.
Ryan Bettens
>After reading LoC, my least favorite male character is Mat...
[lots munched, 'cause I agree].
I completely agree with Sara on this paragraph, although I feel much more
strongly about the guy. In my opinion Mat is truely a pain. The guy is
ungrateful, arrogant, stubborn to the point of stupid and selfish. It makes
me cringe when I have to read about him when he is 'himself', i.e., not being
forced to `do the right thing' by the Wheel or recalling someone else's
memories. It was too bad that Mat was wearing the medallion in his encounter
with Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve. Reading about Mat when he is not `himself'
is his only redeeming aspect.
>While I understand his resentment of Aes Sedai is partly a holdover from
>his past lives... [munch].
I'm not 100% convinced on this one. It seemed that everyone in the Two Rivers
were instantly suspicious and even hostile (although not violently so, which
was just as well...) toward them. I think Mat's resentment of Aes Sedai is
mainly due to his upbringing and his close association with Moiraine and that
very little of it stems from his past lives. However, if not everyone, mostly
everyone in the Two Rivers now seems much more accepting of the Aes Sedai, but
not Mat despite what they have done for him, as pointed out by Sara.
If it wasn't for the fact that the Wheel probably needs a person with Mat's
characteristics I would have been hoping/praying/whishing that Rand would have
left Mat swinging in Ruidhean.
Ryan.
Aaron Bergman
: I'm not 100% convinced on this one. It seemed that everyone in the Two Rivers
: were instantly suspicious and even hostile (although not violently so, which
: was just as well...) toward them.
So would just about everyone else in Randland. And after reading
about Aes Sedai in LOC, would you blame them?
: I think Mat's resentment of Aes Sedai is
: mainly due to his upbringing and his close association with Moiraine and that
: very little of it stems from his past lives. However, if not everyone, mostly
: everyone in the Two Rivers now seems much more accepting of the Aes Sedai, but
: not Mat despite what they have done for him, as pointed out by Sara.
They do? Rand's trying not to be manipulated be Aes Sedai and is
trying to manipulate them at times. Perrin was very
confrontational with Verin and Alanna when he met them. Why do
you say they are
"accepting"?
Aaron
--
--------
Aaron Bergman -- aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu
<http://minerva.cis.yale.edu/~abergman/abergman.html>
--A flag burning amendment would burn the flag--
Karl-Johan Norén
raz...@sps.mot.com (Ashutosh Razdan) writes:
> My favorite female character is Lanfear because she is the prettiest.
> Too bad she is dead. And although she's a forsaken, she appears
> to be a really sweet person. She is by far the best spouse for Rand.
ObOldtimer: Roy is back!
ObAaron: But she has UTTKPS.
ObFAQ: It is not clear as of yet if Lanfear is dead.
Venligen
Karl-Johan
--
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Karl-Johan Norén e-mail: k-j-...@dsv.su.se |
| WWW: http://www.dsv.su.se/~k-j-nore/ |
| The only mushroom on the net |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
: In <405kbb$o...@news.ycc.yale.edu> rsl...@minerva.cis.yale.edu (Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)) writes:
: > She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
: >age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
: >get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
: >she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
: Er, crap.
: One does not cover up one's inadequacies by going about bopping
: people with a stick. Nynaeve, in the beginning of the series,
: does just this.
: So, no, I would not act like Nynaeve-- precisely, I would not
: become physically abusive-- to cover up my inadequacies.
: Would you?
The key thing is that Nynaeve's main inadequacy is her
insecurity, and the fact that she doesn't feel comfortable with the power
that she was given. So she finds another source of power - physical
force.
And no, _I_ wouldn't go around bopping people with a stick. I'd
find some other way to convince people I knew what I was doing (like use
big words, or quote a lot, or any of the other things I do to BS my way
through papers :)
I'm not saying that hitting people is the only way to cover up
your inadequacies, or that that's the only reason to hit people, but it
certainly is one way of doing it. Yes, it's a bad way, and an immature way,
and something that I sincerely hope Nynaeve will stop doing completely as
the series progresses.
Becky/Nynaeve
Mmike
Zuidema) wrote:
~Becky said:
~|More on why Perrin is my _favorite_ male character when I have
^^^^^^
~|more time and less work and my books next to me....
~
~Oh, Come on, Nyn...
~We all know you like his well-turned calves. 8)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You misspelled "broad shoulders". HTH
--
Mmike
Monty the Python
My main grouse with Nynaeve and Egwene is that they seem to have "lost it".
Given Rand's problems, one would expect them to behave with a little more
intelligence than channeling to "slap" him everytime they think he is
acting too big for his boots and stuff like that....
IMO, Robert Jordan has gone overboard in his character development, so much
so that his female characters are becoming too "unreal"
Revenge from Moiraine? Why - Nynaeve is nothing if not intelligent. Doesn't
she understand what needs to be done?
Don't Elayne and Egwene understand that Rand has deeper things on his mind than
being on his best behavior when they are around??
*grumble* :)
Vandit
Ryan Bettens
>Ryan Bettens (bet...@mps.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
[First bit munched]
>: I think Mat's resentment of Aes Sedai is
>: mainly due to his upbringing and his close association with Moiraine and that
>: very little of it stems from his past lives. However, if not everyone, mostly
>: everyone in the Two Rivers now seems much more accepting of the Aes Sedai, but
>: not Mat despite what they have done for him, as pointed out by Sara.
>
>They do? Rand's trying not to be manipulated be Aes Sedai and is
>trying to manipulate them at times. Perrin was very
>confrontational with Verin and Alanna when he met them. Why do
>you say they are
>"accepting"?
Aaron, I was actually thinking more in terms of the people `back home' in the Two
Rivers, and not the dynamic trio. However, since you mention these guys I
probably should point out why I think Mat's behaviour toward the Aes Sedai is
worse than the other two. Mat's problem, as far as the Aes Sedai are concerned,
is that the guy is _PARANOID_. Getting away from them seems to be one of his
goals in life. The guy used one of his three wishes in order to achieve this.
He is ta'veren and he knows it. Does he really think that he can be cast into
such an important role and not have anything to do with them? Mat's an idiot.
As for Rand and Perrin, while neither are happy having to deal with the Aes
Sedai, they both (now) accept that they're always going to be aroung and are
acting appropriately. They tackle the situation head-on, and I think Rand is
doing a GREAT job of it. On the other hand Mat always seems to run away (or try
to at least) from the situation like the pathetic twerp that he is.
Ryan.
Ryan Bettens
as I've lent my copy of LoC to a friend so I don't have it on had to
check out the facts. Let me know if I slip up.
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>In <linden-09...@nwchi-d153.net.interaccess.com>
lin...@interaccess.com (Sara J. Lipowitz) writes:
>
>>After reading LoC, my least favorite male character is Mat. I didn't like
>>him much from the start, because he's such a stock character (the
>>skirt-chasing gambler), but he really made himself odious in the last book,
>>with his trying to order Elayne and Nynaeve and Egwene about like they're
>>children and even hit them for not obeying.
>
>WHOAH, now!
>Hang on _just_ a blood and bloody ashes minute here.
First point. John uses a phrase Mat always uses and is considered
profanity in Randland. It is true that most of the major characters use
such language, and Mat is certainly no Uno, but Mat does seem to use the
most bad language out of all the major characters. In my opinion this adds
further credence to Sara's statement that Mat is `such a stock character
(the skirt-chasing gambler)'.
>Let's review the last book, so far as interactions with Mat and
>Egwene (and the Aes Sedai) go.
>
>Mat is sent off by Rand to 'rescue' Egwene and Elayne, as Rand
>has good reason to believe that Egwene is in _deep_ shit, and
>Elayne is just plain needed.
`sent off', hmmm; I'm not 100% sure, but I recall that Rand virtually had
to order Mat to do it. This, despite the fact that the girls had to haul
his sorry arse across Randland when he was in very dire straits.
>Mat finds them, and sees them apparently playing at being Amyrlin
>Seat and advisors. Now we had been prepared since tDR for Egwene
>being raised to Amyrlin Seat. Mat has not. As far as Mat knows,
>it's flaming impossible. Not only Egwene about ten to twelve
>years younger than Siuan, previously the youngest Amyrlin ever,
>there's already an Amyrlin in the White Tower, and Egwene isn't
>an Aes Sedai yet. And Mat knows this.
John, you've got to be kidding me! This particular confrontation was THE
worst display Mat has ever put on. It utterly sickened me. I was truely
embarrassed by his behaviour. I expected Mat not to be at his best in the
above situation, but what transpired far exceeded anything I thought might
have occurred. Basically, the guy is stupid, or he thinks so much of
himself, and so little of the girls, that he actually believed that they
would be `playing at being Amyrlin Seat' in the midst to swarms of Aes
Sedai. The guy new what the person was he was going to see and was lead
into the room by Aes Sedai, yet his small brain still could not cope. I
can only conclude that Mat is an idiot.
>Mat says a few wrong words, though they're fairly understandable,
>given his knowledge of the situation. And the only person
>getting abusive in the situation is _Nynaeve_! Nynaeve kicked
>Mat. Mat did not. Once. Ever. Physically retaliate for that,
>or any other slight, real or imagined. He may have scared
>Nynaeve, but that was as much a consequence of his amulet
>stopping them from channeling at him as anything he did.
>
>Where you get the idea that Mat hit them, I don't know.
A few wrong words!! Flamming bloody Shayol Ghul!!! The guy never shut-up.
The girls couldn't get a word in edge-wise. Mat was completely full of
himself exhibiting a rather nasty case of verbal diarrhoea. Though you do
have a point about him not striking anyone. As far as I can recall it was
Nynaeve that did the striking, but it wasn't exactly uncalled-for.
>But let's continue the scene to its bitter end.
>
>I recall Egwene and Elayne and Nynaeve coldheartedly using the
>word he gave to Rand against him, making him follow them to Ebou
>Dar like a lap dog. Not Nice.
I don't really see the problem with this. Elayne and Nynaeve had to go,
and Mat couldn't let them go due to his promise to Rand. Therefore Mat
should go with Elayne and Nynaeve. Where's the problem?
>I recall Mat, for some reason, reminding the rest of Salidar--
>including the Aes Sedai-- just exactly who was and was not
>Amyrlin, by dismounting and bowing.
This was actually quite (uncharacteristically) good of Mat, but I'm afraid
he doesn't get full marks. The main reason Mat did this, as I recall, was
out of strong loyalty for the Two Rivers. Mat didn't like the way the Aes
Sedai were treating a Two Rivers Woman. He did not seem to do it out of
any friendship for Egwene, but because the Two Rivers were being insulted,
and therefore indirectly himself.
>We won't mention Elayne's making the gate too short to ride
>through, because that might not have been her fault. But we will
>mention the arrogant manner in which Elayne tried to lay claim to
>his amulet. I'd have laughed in her face.
You're right, it might not have been her fault. You are also right that
Elayne did try to get a hold of the amulet, but, hay, nobodies perfect.
That only reflects on Elayne, not Mat.
>And we will mention the other two Aes Sedai, who joyfully threw
>road shit at his back, to see if they could still affect him with
>the One Power by heaving objects at him.
The fact that they used road shit was not nice, but the experiment needed
to be done. It was a definite attempt to humble him somewhat, and, boy,
does Mat need humility. Anyway, we all need to grin-and-bear taking shit
sometimes.
>Mat, insufferable?
He surely is.
>The road goes both ways.
So what, Mat is still insufferable.
>> Having grown up with Nynaeve
>>and Egwene, he should know by now that they are neither fools nor
>>weaklings, and in spite of all his carping about Elayne's royal attitude
>>problem, he never gave her a real chance to be nice to him because he
>>decided he had her pegged from the start.
>
>Likewise Elayne with Mat, all the way back from tDR, when they
>first meet. Elayne treats him like a subject, which makes no
>sense given how long the Two Rivers have been functionally
>autonomous, and even less sense given that Caemlyn sent no help
>to the Two Rivers during the recent troubles with Trollocs.
Of course Elayne treats Mat like a subject, he is. This makes perfect
sence; the Two Rivers _IS_PART_OF_ Andor. The fact the the Two Rivers has
been functioning autonomously for a few generations is totally irrelevant.
The Two Rivers is part of Andor, so there it is (Just ask the Chinese if
Taiwan is part of China).
>> I think too that he is jealous of
>>her sense of her own authority, as demonstrated when she won over the
>>loyalty of the Band of the Red Hand.
>
>Elayne _has_ no authority over Mat or the Band.
True, Elayne has no authority over the Band, unless it enters Andor.
However, she is the Daughter Heir and Mat IS one of her subjects until the
Two Rivers gains official independence, whether he, or anybody else, likes
it or not.
Ryan.
aleistra
>Least favorite male character:
>
>On the dark side: 1. Padan Fain
> 2. Kadare
Hm. As a baddie, I find Fain to be quite interesting. Oh, he certainly
isn't _likeable_ -- but no baddies really are, are they? The way that
Fain has changed from a slightly odd peddler to a cringing lunatic
to something that makes Myrddraal sweat is a nice change from the
usual one-dimensional baddies. Oh, he's nasty. But one of the
more interesting nasties, IMO.
>On the light side: 1. Rand - I get frustrated with his lack of communcation
> skills--he doesn't reach out to people, he reacts to
>them.
> He doesn't think in terms of a team effort, but takes
> all responsibility on himself.
>
I'm not too fond of Rand myself -- I was one who voted for him as
Least Favorite Male Character on the Survey. I can't really
put my finger on the reason(s), however. He just grates on my
nerves. The lack of communication is certainly part of it. I don't
like the person he has become in later books.
Andrea
Rebecca Slitt (MC 1997)
: Becky said:
: |More on why Perrin is my _favorite_ male character when I have
: |more time and less work and my books next to me....
: Oh, Come on, Nyn...
: We all know you like his well-turned calves. 8)
: Will Z, of the Will Collective
: (And the muscled legs.. and the well-muscled chest...)
Somebody throw a bucket of cold water over this boy...he's
getting way too worked up about this...
Becky/Nynaeve (who likes Perrin 'cause he's the sensitive
one ;)
Karl-Johan Norén
an...@andyc.carenet.org (Andy Carlson) writes:
> In <408m4o$h...@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
> flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio J. Carrillo ) writes:
> >It's interesting that he is told by Egwene that Rand didn't kill
> >Morgase, and that he immediately disregards this; he requires that she
> >produce proof to the contrary. There's no proof one way or the other
> >available to Gawyn, but he clearly places the burden of proof against
> >Rand.
>
> I don't have the books with me, but I do not think it went like this. I
> beleive Egwene said something like "Gawyn, Rand did not kill your
> mother. I cannot proveit yet". Egwene offered the proof that she did
> not have yet. I do not remember anything, even after this, that Gawyn
> required the proof.
It went more or less like Flavio described:
"'I [Gawyn] do not care if he is the Creator made flesh,'
he grated. 'Al'Thor killed my mother!'
Egwene's eyes nearly popped out of her head. 'Gawyn, no!
No, he did not!'
'Can you swear it? Where you there when she died?
---" [ LoC, Like Lightning and Rain ]
The only real explanation to Gawyn's behaviour in this
regard is that he was under some third party influence
when told of her mother's death by Mil Tesen in the
prologue, ie Mil was probably one of the Forsaken or
our favourite peddler: Padan Fain.
Flavio J. Carrillo
>
>In article <40avl1$i...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Jeff Smith <smithjj>
wrote:
>>Least favorite male character:
>>
>>On the dark side: 1. Padan Fain
>> 2. Kadare
>
>Hm. As a baddie, I find Fain to be quite interesting. Oh, he
certainly
>isn't _likeable_ -- but no baddies really are, are they? The way that
>Fain has changed from a slightly odd peddler to a cringing lunatic
>to something that makes Myrddraal sweat is a nice change from the
>usual one-dimensional baddies. Oh, he's nasty. But one of the
>more interesting nasties, IMO.
>
I think Fain is a fascinating character. He's getting more and more
interesting. I have no idea where Jordan plans to take him. Here's a
source of evil that is something of a free agent, not entirely bound to
the DO, and possibly at cross purposes with both the DO and the
Forsaken.
>
>
>I'm not too fond of Rand myself -- I was one who voted for him as
>Least Favorite Male Character on the Survey. I can't really
>put my finger on the reason(s), however. He just grates on my
>nerves. The lack of communication is certainly part of it. I don't
>like the person he has become in later books.
>
>Andrea
>
Part of the reason that people may not like Rand is because of his
hardening of character. He's becoming crafty, suspicious, maybe even a
touch paranoid. In short, the qualities needed to gain and maintain
power. A successfull statesman is not necessarily a lovable one. I find
Rand to be very realistic in light of what he's supposed to do. The
important thing is that he's doing for the right reasons.
Remember than even good statesmen must sometimes do bad or unadmirable
things in order to achieve their ends.
This is why I think that principle vs. practicality and the psychology
of leadership are two major themes in the series.
This sort of behavior isn't limited to Rand, BTW. We're seeing Egwene
and Elayne, and others behaving similarly (if to a lesser degree) for
similar reasons.
Flavio Carrillo
John Novak
>>Mat is sent off by Rand to 'rescue' Egwene and Elayne, as Rand
>>has good reason to believe that Egwene is in _deep_ shit, and
>>Elayne is just plain needed.
>`sent off', hmmm; I'm not 100% sure, but I recall that Rand virtually had
>to order Mat to do it. This, despite the fact that the girls had to haul
>his sorry arse across Randland when he was in very dire straits.
Yes, he was sent off.
And yes, Rand had to order him to do it, because Mat was rather
in the middle of something else-- trying to lead an army.
Are we going to play the "who's rescued whom" game?
A silly game, but since you insist:
Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve did not rescue Mat from the Shadar
Mandarb. Let's review the practicalities-- the blade was
stolen. Mat, Rand and Perrin set out to get it back. They did
so, without eny help, per se, from the girls. In fact, did Rand
and company not head back to Falme to rescue them? Granted, the
girls thought they were there to help Rand, and were tricked,
but that had nothing to do with Mat.
Also, the girls did not haul him back to Tar Valon. The girls
_and_ Mat were hauled collectively back to Tar Valon by Verin.
None of them had any choice in the matter at all. They weren't
even in on the Healing, except as spectators.
And are we forgetting the whole resolution of tDR? What was it
that brought Mat swooping down on the Stone of Tear? Trying to
rescue the three girls from, or warn them about, Rahvin's pet
assassin, and afterward, springing them from the Stone.
>John, you've got to be kidding me! This particular confrontation was THE
>worst display Mat has ever put on. It utterly sickened me. I was truely
>embarrassed by his behaviour. I expected Mat not to be at his best in the
>above situation, but what transpired far exceeded anything I thought might
>have occurred. Basically, the guy is stupid, or he thinks so much of
>himself, and so little of the girls, that he actually believed that they
>would be `playing at being Amyrlin Seat' in the midst to swarms of Aes
>Sedai. The guy new what the person was he was going to see and was lead
>into the room by Aes Sedai, yet his small brain still could not cope. I
>can only conclude that Mat is an idiot.
Aside from the fact that it is Constitutionally impermissible to
become President of the United States before the age of thirty
five, would _you_ believe that an eighteen year old friend of
your choice is suddenly the President?
I wouldn't care if the Secretary of State told me, I'd figure
something is radically wrong.
>A few wrong words!! Flamming bloody Shayol Ghul!!! The guy never shut-up.
>The girls couldn't get a word in edge-wise. Mat was completely full of
>himself exhibiting a rather nasty case of verbal diarrhoea. Though you do
>have a point about him not striking anyone. As far as I can recall it was
>Nynaeve that did the striking, but it wasn't exactly uncalled-for.
No. Sorry.
What Mat said was _not_ an excuse for an attack.
I wasn't aware that irreverance in the presence of one (Egwene)
who had pointedly, bold-facedly lied to the Wise Ones about being
Green Ajah was an excuse for physical abuse. And remember,
Egwene has a history of lying about her status, and Mat knows it.
>I don't really see the problem with this. Elayne and Nynaeve had to go,
>and Mat couldn't let them go due to his promise to Rand. Therefore Mat
>should go with Elayne and Nynaeve. Where's the problem?
Please.
They used him, and by extension used the entire Band of the Red
Hand. They used him and the Band in cold blood. Elayne wants
him to follow along so she can look at the bloody amulet, and
Egwene thinks this is a good idea because Mat's army following
Salidar-on-the-move is judged a Good Thing.
This is not motivational conjecture. This is fact. They begin
discussing these plans the very moment Mat is out of earshot, on
the same pages as Elayne decides that bringing some of Mat's men
along as guards is fine, just so long as they know who gives the
orders.
They are willfully, deliberately using Mat and the Band, and they
are willfully, deliberately trying to subvert his command over
them.
>You're right, it might not have been her fault. You are also right that
>Elayne did try to get a hold of the amulet, but, hay, nobodies perfect.
>That only reflects on Elayne, not Mat.
Excuse me.
Mat's not perfect, so Elayne has the right to treat him like a
mongrel dog. Elayne's not perfect, but Mat has to treat her
nicely. Something is wrong, here.
Elayne's actions are stereotypically Aes Sedai in that section--
subversion of someone else's authority, demands on someone else's
property and obedience, etc. These are the types of things Mat
expects from Elayne because these are the types of things she
_does_ to him, all the way back to tDR when they first meet.
These are the types of things Mat expects from Elayne because
these are the types of things every true Aes Sedai we have ever
seen does to everyone. Look at the way the Aes Sedai treat Rand.
Look at the way the Aes Sedai treat Perrin.
I wouldn't react much better than Mat.
Probably a good bit worse.
>The fact that they used road shit was not nice, but the experiment needed
>to be done. It was a definite attempt to humble him somewhat, and, boy,
>does Mat need humility. Anyway, we all need to grin-and-bear taking shit
>sometimes.
The experiment needed to be done?
Why? Because the Aes Sedai were curious?
>>Mat, insufferable?
>He surely is.
I'm hardly painting Mat as a paragon of virtue.
He's outspoken, a bit crass, a little rude, and so forth.
He ruffles feathers. So does Nynaeve, at times, yet many people
leap to her defense (including myself, for the later books).
But don't even think about painting Elayne and the other Aes
Sedai as such paragons, either. 'Cause they ain't. The only
person in the whole series with half a chance of being more
arrogant than a given Aes Sedai is Rand.
>Of course Elayne treats Mat like a subject, he is. This makes perfect
>sence; the Two Rivers _IS_PART_OF_ Andor. The fact the the Two Rivers has
>been functioning autonomously for a few generations is totally irrelevant.
>The Two Rivers is part of Andor, so there it is (Just ask the Chinese if
>Taiwan is part of China).
Horse. Shit.
Morgase is wise enough not to think she can exert any control of
the Two Rivers, except through force of arms. I don't want to
bring this into a discussion of real world politics, but that's
probably the only way the Chinese are going to exert control over
Taiwan, too.
There is an implicit contract in a rulership situation. The Two
rivers have had no business with Andor, per se, except for bits
and pieces of trade. They've paid no taxes, and seen no soldiers
for over a hundred years. They're left to fend for themselves in
times of feast and famine, and are given no aid in times of
catastrophe, such as the past years' Trolloc invasions.
Any claim that Elayne tries to make on the Two Rivers in the name
of Andor is sheer greed and outright despotism. You can't ignore
a people entirely for over a century, and expect them to behave
like subjects. You neglect a people when the times are tough,
and expect them to follow you when _you_ need them.
Andor relinquished any practical or moral claim on the Two Rivers
over a hundred years ago.
>True, Elayne has no authority over the Band, unless it enters Andor.
>However, she is the Daughter Heir and Mat IS one of her subjects until the
>Two Rivers gains official independence, whether he, or anybody else, likes
>it or not.
I don't think so.
Because Mat's great great great great great grandfather paid
taxes to a distant relative of Elayne's great great great great
great grandmother, but there's been no contact between the two
areas since, Mat has to follow her orders?
Gee. Does _Rand_ have to follow her orders, too?
A mite funny that, he giving her throne back, then.
Flavio J. Carrillo
Novak) writes:
I'd like to back up what John says here. A legal claim has no power
unless backed up by actions and force (this is known as the positivist
theory of law.) Otherwise, it's just so many words on a piece of paper.
Andor's historical claim over the Two Rivers is just that: historical.
The Two Rivers possesses an even earlier claim to political
independance by virtue of it's Manatheren heritage. Again,purely
historical. None of this is of any consequence unless someone acts to
enforce their legal claims.
As a practical matter what do we see? Andor has exercised no authority,
either in terms of taxes or a military presence, for some time. The
first duty of the sovereign is to protect it's teritorial integrity and
the lives and property of it's people -- the social contract referred
to by John. Put simply, Andor breached that social contract. In
contrast, we see the Two Rivers organizing it's own government (a sort
of Constitutional Monarchy with powers shared between the sovereign and
the people's representatives, i.e., Perrin and the Wisdoms/Mayors). The
Two Rivers has organized independant military forces and has begun
levying taxes. The Two Rivers, by any reasonable construction, is an
independant political entity. Andor's claim has become irrelevant. And
if tries to reassert authority over the Two Rivers (which I don't think
it has the ability to) it will find a hot welcome.
The best Andor can hope for at this point is that Perring enters into
some kind of vassal-like relationship, with the Two Rivers acting as an
autonomous Barony. I do not believe that Perrin would be inclined to
enter into this sort of relationship.
Flavio Carrillo
Flavio J. Carrillo
Carlson) writes:
>
>In <40ape6$e...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, flav...@ix.netcom.com (Flavio
J. Carrillo ) writes:
>>Yeah, I think it did go like this, but my read is that she offered
the
>>proof because it was implicitly required by Galad.
>
>When did Galad show up there? :)
>
<blush> Er, that'd be _Gawyn_. These Andoran nobles all look alike to
me... ;)
Flavio Carrillo
Robyn Goldstein
Ryan Bettens <bet...@mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) wrote:
>>I recall Egwene and Elayne and Nynaeve coldheartedly using the
>>word he gave to Rand against him, making him follow them to Ebou
>>Dar like a lap dog. Not Nice.
>I don't really see the problem with this. Elayne and Nynaeve had to go,
>and Mat couldn't let them go due to his promise to Rand. Therefore Mat
>should go with Elayne and Nynaeve. Where's the problem?
The attitude that was displayed. Yes, Mat stated that he planned to drag
Elayne back to Andor, whether or not she wanted to go, but she _is_ the
Queen, and she is _needed_ there. He was trying to get her to do her
duty (even if Rand forced him into doing it).
However, there was no reason for Elayne to tell Mat that she will
_permit_ him to keep the ter'angreal during the day, though he _must_
give it up to her at night. Where does she have a right to say that?
He didn't steal the ter'angreal. It was given to him. It is his, and
she had no right to attempt to take it away from him.
Plus, she goes around and tells him to make sure that the horses are
checked at the next inn, and to see that his men don't get drunk, etc.
with the express purpose of getting him into the habit of doing what she
says, so that when she wants him to do something he normally wouldn't do,
he'd do it without hesitation.
_Elayne_ is the one who is being manipulative here, and using Mat. Nynaeve,
while she is leaving Mat and the Band soldiers alone, is not helping them
out, either. And she is _still_ hiding from Mat, when all he wants to
do is talk to her. *sniff*
Hawk
* Of the chief parts of the Ruling Passion, | Hawk
* only this can be said: | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/
* Hate has a reason for everything. | ~hawk
* But love is unreasonable. |
John Novak
>historical. None of this is of any consequence unless someone acts to
>enforce their legal claims.
This is part of my claim, certainly-- the purely practical
aspect. I'm by far enough of a pragmatist to respect gunboat
diplomacy.
But the other part of the claim is just as important-- the moral
side of rulership. A claim enforced _purely_ by force, without
the concsent of the governed in any way, shape, or form is
nothing but tyranny.
Obviously, in the practical world, there are shadings and
gradations. The Taiwan situation, the American Revolution and
Civil War, the Soviet revolts at the end of the Cold War, etc.
But I think it's pretty clear that over a century of outright
neglect pretty much wipes the slate clean.
Also, there is a fundamental principle of Randland politics that
doesn't typically operate in our world. Namely, for the past
thousand years, humanity has been in retreat. Nations have
vanished not so much through warfare, as through simple attrition
with the elements. Few nations can truly control what they claim
on a map, and few nations claim as much now as they did a hundred
years ago. This is one of those cases-- Andor simply cannot hold
the Two Rivers. They had a choice, a hundred twenty odd years
ago-- Two Rivers tabac, or Baerlon ore-- and they chose the ore.
>The best Andor can hope for at this point is that Perring enters into
>some kind of vassal-like relationship, with the Two Rivers acting as an
>autonomous Barony. I do not believe that Perrin would be inclined to
>enter into this sort of relationship.
I can see it, but I tend to doubt that Perrin would be happy
about it. Perrin is the type of thinker, I believe, who would
enter into a semi-autonomous baronial office if it kept more
blood from being spilt senselessly, or it became necessary in
order to win the _real_ war with the Shadow.
But the characters and personalities behind this are enough to
make a story in and of themselves.
We have Rand and his love interest with Elayne. Even if Rand and
Elayne work out their problems with the Lion Throne, we suddenly
have Rand's best friend (or one of them) leading what Elayne
views as a revolt in her own back yard. Who will Rand support?
Hell, Rand has effectively supported Perrin already. He regards
himself as a steward for Andor right now, I think, and is waiting
to give the throne back to Elayne. But by Elayne's lights, he
won't have been a good steward, since he didn't quash this Two
Rivers independance foolishness right off.
And while Perrin might be willing to submit to the baronial idea
just to keep the peace (if Elayne even thinks to offer it, rather
than simply saying, "No, you have no power, you have nothing, and
you are not a Lord. Stop waving that foolish banner around, and
kneel to your Queen, blacksmith!" I can see this going both
ways. It depends on whether she's caught by surprise or not.)
Faile ain't gonna like it one damned bit.
On my more cynical days, I can easily see Faile trying to put the
Two Rivers into the hands of some boneheaded Greater Saldaea. I
think it's a stupid idea, given the great wild forests between
the two areas, and the nigh-impossibility of the communications
necessary to make true rulership of the Two Rivers a
possibility. But even on my generous days, she _won't_ like
Perrin (or herself, more importantly) kneeling to Elayne.
Add Mat into the mix, who already thinks as lowly of Elayne as a
man can, also best buddies with Rand and Perrin, and the leader
of the best independant army in the world at this point...
Hell, if the Forsaken want to play head games with Rand, _this_
is a situation to exacerbate. And Demandred does seem to have an
interest in the Lion Throne.
Ville Lehtonen
>Joseph Rosenfeld (jros...@blazer.law.nd.edu) wrote:
>: Aaron Bergman (aber...@minerva.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
>: : No, Nynaeve was a bully (bitch has different connotations) ('was'
>: : because she's in a transitional period now) because she had to
>: : be.
>: Why did she HAVE to be a bully? Who was forcing her to bully anyone? I
>: do not buy that at all. It is just a convenient excuse to cover up her
>: inadequacies.
> She was given a (relatively) large amount of power at a young
>age, and she didn't know how to handle it. THe only way she knew how to
>get people to do what she wanted was to intimidate them into it. Yes,
>she _was_ covering up her inadequacies. Wouldn't you?
Propably. I can understand her behavior toward stubborn 2-rivers
people, but a General who is so inferior she won't even talk with him,
or be near him and the most poweful person (position & personal power)
is a wool-headed lummox who can't take care of himself and is at least
a million times stupider than herself. Light.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
>Believe it or not, my least favorite male character is Mazrim Taim. I
>don't like the way he acts and I think he's going to double cross
>Rand, which makes him even more despicable. The way he's going out of
>his way to help Rand at the last minute is really angering, since I
>believe it's only to gain Rand's trust.
Maybe, but I kinda like his coolness compared to Rand being
not-quite-so-cool. "Asha'man, kill" :-) I like the Forsaken quite
much(the DO is also quite nice), so if he's Demandred, I don't give a
damn (only that if many of the Asha'man become Dreadlords, Rand loses
a lot). My least favourite male character is propably 1) the sucker
who thinks he can outpower Rand at the farm (Blasphemy!!!!) 2) Galad.
And I hate everyone who thinks Trollocs are just tales for children..
Put them in a cage with one until they believe.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
>2. He returns to Elaida with his news and she sends him (and some AS)
>off to deal with the Black Tower which is near Caemlyn (AS again with
>instructions to get rid of Gawyn permanently).
>I'm inclined to 2. He should be just in time to meet Egwene with her
>forces. Remember he doesn't know that Morgase is dead until he starts
>the journey to Cairhien and that journey is something he has promised
>to do.
2 sounds like fun. Aes Sedai seem to be so incredibly arrogant, that
they propably think the Shaido killed most of the Aes Sedais and send
from 50 to 100 to handle the black tower.. There are propably 150+
Asha'man who are in average stronger than Aes Sedai and are most
efficient killers.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
>skirt-chasing gambler), but he really made himself odious in the last book,
>with his trying to order Elayne and Nynaeve and Egwene about like they're
>children and even hit them for not obeying.
Well he acted a bit stupidly, but I would be quite surprised to find a
runaway accepted who is 18 years old and has called herself an Aes
Sedai and has arrived one day ago being the Amyrlin seat....
And they are arrogant trying to channel him all over the place. Why
on Eath should he let them study his medallion? Just to let them
find away to channel around it? He would lose his advantage.
>Having grown up with Nynaeve and Egwene, he should know by now
>that they are neither fools nor weaklings,
Well they think that Rand is a fool and a weakling.. just fair.
(that all have to suffer from stupidity)
>and in spite of all his carping about Elayne's royal attitude
>problem, he never gave her a real chance to be nice to him because he
>decided he had her pegged from the start. I think too that he is jealous of
>her sense of her own authority,
I don't think he's jealous about it, but rather irritated... And she
was trying to get the BotRH:s loyalty, which naturally irritates him.
>While I understand his resentment of Aes Sedai is partly a holdover from
>his past lives, what have they ever done to him
Being plain arrogant? Moiraine admitted that 3000 years of ruling has
had some bad effects on the Aes Sedai.
>in this life other than
>save him a few times from his own stupidity, like when he took the Shadar
>Logoth dagger after being warned by Lan and Moiraine not to touch anything?
>The fact that his life is so complicated right now is not because of Aes
>Sedai, but because of who he is and the part he has to play to fulfill his
>destiny. For him to blame Aes Sedai for that makes about as much sense as
>Nynaeve blaming them for taking Rand and Perrin and Mat and Egwene from the
>village,
She did, and she still hates (we'll she wants to believe she hates
anyway) Moiraine, which is ridiculous.
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Ville Lehtonen
> My favorite female character is Lanfear because she is the prettiest.
> Too bad she is dead. And although she's a forsaken, she appears
> to be a really sweet person. She is by far the best spouse for Rand.
Well I don't completely agree with you, I agree that Lanfear is one of
my favourite characters (I like the Forsaken and have nothing against
beauty). I wouldn't call her sweet, but she is polite, shows proper
respect, has nice plans (2 sa'angreals and the DO :-) etc. I very
much hope she's alive (which is very propable, there is no reason for
her to be dead [unless Moiraine kills her behind the door, which is
_not_ propable]).
-- Ville Lehtonen
v...@mits.mdata.fi
Cynthia C Barlow
Monty the Python <vka...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>My main grouse with Nynaeve and Egwene is that they seem to have "lost it".
>
>Given Rand's problems, one would expect them to behave with a little more
>intelligence than channeling to "slap" him everytime they think he is
>acting too big for his boots and stuff like that....
>Revenge from Moiraine? Why - Nynaeve is nothing if not intelligent. Doesn't
>she understand what needs to be done?
>
>Don't Elayne and Egwene understand that Rand
>has deeper things on his mind than
>being on his best behavior when they are around??
I try to give them the benefit of the doubt when they (or any
character, for that matter) treat Rand as if he were still a
naive farmboy. It seems that the characters all realize that,
since the Dragon is Reborn, the "end is nigh". Bad Things are
going to happen all over, and Rand (as well as Mat and Perrin)
seems to be at the middle of many of them.
Given that, I can understand the reaction of wanting to treat
Rand as if he were still the same naive farmboy, using the same
cultural biases that each grew up with. It's a way of trying to
hold on to one's idea of "normality", to one's sense of "the way
things should be."
Nynaeve and Egwene were raised in Emond's Field, where the
structure of power involved an awful lot of "slapping"
(symbolically and literally) people with swelled heads. That is
what their minds tell them is normal. Egwene, even moreso for
her time with the Wise Ones, where very little unwarranted
arrogance is tolerated.
Sure, Rand has deeper things on his mind than being on his best
behavior, but the girls' reactions to his behavior indicate to me
that they are simply grasping at whatever straw they can find to
fend off the end of the world as they know it.
With all the character flaws and strengths I have seen discussed
here lately, that one always stands out to me. Every person,
from Rand to Elayne to Faile and so on, reacts to what they see
as the end of it all by trying to hold on to what they were when
things were better. Rand tries to remain true to his uneasiness
of putting women in danger. Elayne tries to hold on to her dream
of being an Aes Sedai Queen. Faile wants to have a home and
family like the one her parents have.
That being said, I should add that I really don't have a vote for
most annoying character of any gender, or species. Though Taim
bugs me...and I find Elaida frustrating.
-Cy
Karl-Johan Norén
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
> In <linden-09...@nwchi-d153.net.interaccess.com>
> lin...@interaccess.com (Sara J. Lipowitz) writes:
[ About the Mat meets Egwene scene in LoC, A Sudden Chill pp ]
> Mat finds them, and sees them apparently playing at being Amyrlin
> Seat and advisors. Now we had been prepared since tDR for Egwene
> being raised to Amyrlin Seat. Mat has not. As far as Mat knows,
> it's flaming impossible. Not only Egwene about ten to twelve
> years younger than Siuan, previously the youngest Amyrlin ever,
> there's already an Amyrlin in the White Tower, and Egwene isn't
> an Aes Sedai yet. And Mat knows this.
>
> Mat says a few wrong words, though they're fairly understandable,
> given his knowledge of the situation. And the only person
> getting abusive in the situation is _Nynaeve_! Nynaeve kicked
> Mat. Mat did not. Once. Ever. Physically retaliate for that,
> or any other slight, real or imagined. He may have scared
> Nynaeve, but that was as much a consequence of his amulet
> stopping them from channeling at him as anything he did.
No. Mat gets pretty abusive too. He literally hauls
Egwene from her chair, and snatches the stole from
her shoulders. Then he _never_ gives any of the girls
any chance to say anything coherent, but cuts them
off constantly.
He gives more than a few wrong words. He doesn't give
off one sensible word in that entire scene. Even when
he realises he has made a mistake in not believing
Egwene Amyrlin, he still cuts them off and tries to
tell them what to do.
> I recall Egwene and Elayne and Nynaeve coldheartedly using the
> word he gave to Rand against him, making him follow them to Ebou
> Dar like a lap dog. Not Nice.
Not nice, I agree. But when Elayne decided to go to
Ebou Dar, instead of Caemlyn, which Egwene gave her
a choice of, Mat couldn't do much else. And Elayne's
decision come first. They did give Mat a choice, which
is more than Mat gave them.
[ The incidents on the way to Ebou Dar munched ]
> Mat, insufferable?
> The road goes both ways.
At least in the Elayne case. IMO, definitely no on Egwene.
Nynaeve is more or less in between.
BTW, I'm still disappointed on that neither Thom nor
Birgitte tells Elayne how stupid she is acting wrt
Mat and his soldiers on the way to Ebou Dar. She's
more or less destroying Mat's authority over his
men.
Ashutosh Razdan
>In article <409f0t$t...@cegt201.bradley.edu>,
>John Novak <j...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>>Er, crap.
>>One does not cover up one's inadequacies by going about bopping
>>people with a stick. Nynaeve, in the beginning of the series,
>>does just this.
>
>general pronoun. Many, many people do try to cover up their own
>feelings of inadequacy by bullying.
>
>No, this doesn't mean that you have to like a person who does so. We
>all now that you don't like Nynaeve.
>
>Nynaeve is, initially, presented as a heinous shrew. Thus, the
>thwapping with sticks, etc. As TEOTW progresses, Nynaeve's horizons
>are broadened a great deal. She falls in love. She discovers that she
>is something that she's been taught to hate and fear all her life. She
>fails in protecting her flock, and finally, discovers that a member of
>that flock may be the Randland equivalent of the Antichrist, and, at
>the very least, is destined to become a horrible danger to society and
>be destroyed in the process, and _there is nothing she can do about
>any of it_, no matter how much she yells. The seeds of _character
>growth_ have been planted.
>
Although you are right that Nynaeve has many good qualities,
what makes me dislike her is her discriminative behavior toward
men. If she treated both men and women equally, she would
be tolerable. However, the inequality in her behavior
toward men and women is disturbing. I find it difficult
to explain her consistently hostile attitude toward the men
in Randland. If she were truely mature she would learn
to control her hatred of men.
A character such an Nyaneve is impossible to like (at least
by the male readers of the series).
Razdan
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Motorola
Semiconductor Products Sector
raz...@bunt.sps.mot.com
Emma Pease
>Obviously, in the practical world, there are shadings and
>gradations. The Taiwan situation, the American Revolution and
>Civil War, the Soviet revolts at the end of the Cold War, etc.
>But I think it's pretty clear that over a century of outright
>neglect pretty much wipes the slate clean.
The idea of a Roman Empire (Western) lasted for many centuries after
the actual Empire disappeared and was even revived under Charlemagne.
Don't forget that the idea of a Social Contract is relatively new in
our world and not all people accept it as a basis of government.
>And while Perrin might be willing to submit to the baronial idea
>just to keep the peace (if Elayne even thinks to offer it, rather
>than simply saying, "No, you have no power, you have nothing, and
>you are not a Lord. Stop waving that foolish banner around, and
>kneel to your Queen, blacksmith!" I can see this going both
>ways. It depends on whether she's caught by surprise or not.)
>Faile ain't gonna like it one damned bit.
Actually Faile might be in agreement with Two Rivers being semiautonomous
under Andor. She after all believes in long term claims (remember her
reference to her father subduing a province of Saldaea which had been
for all practical purposes independent).
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease unsolicited commercial email will
|_\/ em...@csli.stanford.edu be returned to sender and postmaster
Emma Pease
>To pick a nit, the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, roman, or
>particularly imperial; it was a loose collection of central European
>ministates, and not really a unified state in any real sense. And
>Charlemagne's empire crumbled after his death fairly quickly (rather
>like Artur Hawkwing.)
No fair paraphrasing Gibbons; he always liked a good phrase even if it
weren't completely accurate. The idea remained, people believed that
an ideal world would have one Holy Roman Empire (see Dante). A smart
ruler could use that idea to justify certain actions even though the
idea had not been realized for many years. If you want a recent and
controversial example of long ineffective claims being revived, shall
we take a look at who has the right to rule Israel?
>There's comments in LoC that suggest that some kind of crude social
>contract theory exists in Randland: go back to Faile's audiences in the
>Two Rivers where she considers the relation of commoner to noble.
I thought it was more of Noblesse Oblige in Faile's audiences. The
pattern has appointed Faile and Perrin to be nobles and they have
certain duties as nobles (divine ordering of society).
Mandate of Heaven (Chinese philosophy) might also apply. If the
rulers fail to behave properly towards their subjects, then they will
lose the Mandate of Heaven to be the rulers (that Heaven used peasant
revolts to carry out the deposition was immaterial).
>My read on Faile (in her role as Lady of the Two Rivers) is that she'll
>accept allegience to the Dragon Reborn, but not Andor. In any case, the
>final decision probably rests with Perrin, not Faile (although the
>Mayors/Wisdoms may have some say here; it's not clear how power will be
>ultimately divided between sovereign and people in the
>proto-Constitutional Democracy of the Two Rivers.)
proto-Constitutional Democracy? If anything things have gone
backwards, Faile is manipulating the choosing of Wisdoms (she also
attempted to manipulate the election of mayors). People now seem to
believe in a class structure of nobles (Perrin and Faile) and
non-nobles (everyone else) instead of electing their top leaders
(whether for life as the Wisdom or for term as the Mayor and the
village councils).
yours in babbling,
Emma
ps. Gibbons is fascinating reading and well worth while to spend some
of the time before the next WoT book. Make sure you don't get an
abridged version.
John Novak
Will you please post with a seven bit character set?
This is getting annoying.
In <K-J-NORE.95...@mars.dsv.su.se> k-j-...@mars.dsv.su.se (Karl-Johan Norn) writes:
>No. Mat gets pretty abusive too. He literally hauls
>Egwene from her chair, and snatches the stole from
>her shoulders. Then he _never_ gives any of the girls
>any chance to say anything coherent, but cuts them
>off constantly.
...In order, he thinks, to keep the three from being punished by
the Aes Sedai. Recall, Nynaeve led him to the other two, and the
impression Mat gets is that Egwene and Elayne are waiting the Aes
Sedai as well-- but playing games as well.
And on the subject of what Mat thinks, look at that again--
_Nynaeve_ leads Mat to the Amyrlin. Mat wants to see the
Amyrlin, he says, and Nynaeve leads him to her. Is there some
reason, aside from pettiness, that Nynaeve _didn't_ say, "Oh, Mat,
bet you didn't know-- Egwene is the Amyrlin, now."
Perhaps she thought he would be taught some sort of lesson, being
surprised like that, but in part, Mat's reactions are due to--
once again-- the omnigenderal tendency to keep pointless, stupid
little secrets for no reason.
>Not nice, I agree. But when Elayne decided to go to
>Ebou Dar, instead of Caemlyn, which Egwene gave her
>a choice of, Mat couldn't do much else. And Elayne's
>decision come first. They did give Mat a choice, which
>is more than Mat gave them.
Nevertheless, they're using Mat and the Band in cold blood.
>At least in the Elayne case. IMO, definitely no on Egwene.
>Nynaeve is more or less in between.
Elayne, at least, is annoying only when she comes into contact
with Mat. How Egwene is annoying, particularly twoard Rand, is a
whole 'nother rant.
In this case, she is annoying because she's party and instigator
to the using of Mat. And the big howling irony is that Egwene
berates Rand for this sort of Mickey Mouse chessboarding, too, at
some point.
>BTW, I'm still disappointed on that neither Thom nor
>Birgitte tells Elayne how stupid she is acting wrt
>Mat and his soldiers on the way to Ebou Dar. She's
>more or less destroying Mat's authority over his
>men.
Agreed.
But do you think she'd listen?
John Novak
>The idea of a Roman Empire (Western) lasted for many centuries after
>the actual Empire disappeared and was even revived under Charlemagne.
And was used by every two bit tyrant with delusions imperial.
Aside from the fact that the Holy Roman Empire, for instance, was
neither Holy, nor Roman, nor really much of an empire, it also
had to fight tooth and nail to claim many of its territories.
>Actually Faile might be in agreement with Two Rivers being semiautonomous
>under Andor. She after all believes in long term claims (remember her
>reference to her father subduing a province of Saldaea which had been
>for all practical purposes independent).
She also believes in setting Perrin up with as much power as she
can make him accept. Kinda like a mini-Lanfear, in that regard.