Why Min, Not Elayne, is Ilyena Reborn
Koby Kobia
putting it up for discussion by some of the excellent minds in
this NG. Here goes.
There is a great deal of speculation among WoT fans about which
of Rand's girls, if any, is Ilyena reborn. Following is my crack
at addressing this issue. First, I am making a fundamental
assumption that one of them IS, indeed, Ilyena. Which one? At
first glance, I suspect many readers would assume it is Elayne
because she has exactly the same color hair as Ilyena, and her
name is almost an anagram of Ilyena's. However, I don't believe
a writer of RJ's caliber would set up such obvious parallels and
leave that as the answer. More important, Rand has different
hair color from LTT's, and his name bears no resemblance to LTT.
Therefore, we know hair color or name does not necessarily have
any correlation with one's previous incarnation.
So, I think Elayne is a red herring. For my money, Min, not
Elayne, is Ilyena reborn . Knowing how RJ enjoys burying such
insights deep, I think we should look deeper in the books for the
clues buried there and forget about hair color. Here's what I
found.
The Shadow Impersonating Min Hurts Rand the Most
One the first hints RJ gives us about how really special Min is
to Rand occurs in (tDR, Chapter 32, "The First Ship"). Rand is on
his way to Tear. Several attempts have been made to kill him by
shadowspawn taking on the appearances of his friends and family,
including Tam, Kari, Mat, Perrin, etc. Rand is particularly
incensed that one of the killers had taken on the appearance of
Min. This is his PoV:
Min had walked his dreams one night and tried to plant a
knife in his back. _He was still
surprised at how much that had pained him_ (emphasis mine).
He had been careless, let
her come close, let down his guard. Around Min, he had not
felt any need to be on his
guard for so long, despite the things she sees when looked at
him. _Being with her had
been like having balm soothed into his wounds_ (emphasis
mine).
_And then she tried to kill me_! (emphasis in the original).
The music rose to a discordant screech,
but he pulled it back to softness. Not her. Shadowspawn with
her face. _Least of them all with
Min hurt me_ (emphasis in the original). He could not understand
why he thought that, but he was
sure it was true.
Isn't it remarkable that the shadow using the face of Min, at
that time a comparative stranger, hurt
Rand more than the impersonation of his father, his mother, and
his two boyhood friends? What
about the extraordinary calming effect Min's presence has on him?
And why is he so sure that Min
would be the last person to hurt him, even though he doesn't know
why? If we recall that Artur
Hawkwing and the heroes of the horn recognized Rand at once as
Lews Therin, even though he
looked completely different, we find a reasonable answer. I
submit that what is happening here is
his subconscious mind, Lews Therin, has recognized Min as Ilyena,
but his conscious mind, Rand,
is not aware of the fact, only that he can trust her above all
others.
Rand's Feelings For Each of the Girls
While Rand was with Elayne in tDR and with Aviendha in tSR, tFoH,
and LoC, RJ kept on
reminding us each time the subject came up that Rand wasn't
really sure what he felt for the girls.
Even after he went all the way with Aviendha (tFoH, Chapter 31,
"The Far Snows") and asked
her to marry him, RJ tells us he made the proposal more out of a
sense of duty than out of love.
"Aviendha, we just ... the two of us ... light, we have to
marry now. Not that I'm doing it
because I have to," he added hastily. "I want to." He was
not sure of that at all, really. He
thought he might love her, but he thought he might love
Elayne, too. And for some reason,
Min kept creeping in. You're just as big a lecher as Mat.
But for once he could do what
was right because it was right.
RJ constantly reminded us that Rand is not sure if he loves
either girl. In (tFoH, Chapter 50, "To
Teach and Learn"), Elayne and Nynaeve have arrived in Salidar.
Elayne quickly seeks out Min
and questions her about her (Min's) viewing concerning Rand and
her (Elayne):
"Min, you had a viewing about Rand and me, didn't you?" She
went two steps before she
realized the other woman had stopped.
"Yes." It was a wary word.
"You saw that we were going to fall in love."
"Not exactly. I saw you'd fall in love with him. I don't know
what he feels for you, only that he's
tied to you in some way."
Since we know that Min is never wrong when a viewing is involved,
I think RJ is here giving us
the clearest possible hint that Elayne is not exactly the love of
Rand's life, which she definitely
would have been if she were Ilyena.
When Min took her turn to be with him in LoC, RJ began dropping
hints that this time the
relationship might be different. For example, why did he tell us
that Rand tended to snap at
people and was generally short tempered when Min chose to spend
some time with the Wise Ones
and away from him? (LoC, Chapter 50, "Threads"). Those are the
classic symptoms of a lovesick
person. Despite RJ muddying the waters somewhat by making Min
think to herself (just before
she and Rand "comfort" each other, aCoS, Chapter 19, "Diamonds
and Stars"), that she was "in
love with ... a man she was sure was in love with her. And with
Elayne and Aviendha, too...", he
is careful not to ascribe those thoughts to Rand himself.
RJ finally came straight out and clarified Rand's feelings,
making him (aCoS, Chapter 33, "A
Bath") declare, for the first time, his love for Min (or any of
the three, for that matter). In this
scene, Min upbraids him for even thinking of sending her away
from him, ending with:
"You dare! You let the Maidens face any risk they want and
you want to send me away
like a child?"
"I don't love the Maidens." Floating deep in the emotionless
Void, he heard these words spring
from his tongue, and shock shattered the emptiness and sent
saidin flying.
"Well," Min said, straightening. A small smile added more curve
to her lips. "That's out of the
way." And she sat down on his lap.
It seems to me that RJ here finally showed his hand by making
Rand verbalize his love for Min,
feelings he was not even sure he had for Elayne or Aviendha.
True, he told Min that he loved
Elayne and Aviendha too, but then notice that he said it to Min,
not to them, and RJ makes it
clear he wanted to shock Min with that declaration.
The Clincher
(LOC, Chapter 41, "Threat"). Min has just appeared in Caemlyn;
Rand escorts her to his rooms,
and almost immediately she hands him Elayne's letter, which he
reads. He then rambles on about
how both Elayne and Aviendha are both so beautiful, and yet
confuse him so about his feelings for
them. He notices that Min is not amused by his praise of two
other women, and apologizes. He
then goes on to make this extraordinary statement:
Its just that I feel comfortable with you. It doesn't matter
if I look like a fool with you. I
can say things to you I wouldn't say to anybody else, not
even Mat or Perrin. When I am
around you, all the knots unwind, all the tightness in my
shoulders I don't even feel till it
goes.
Rand is here indicating that he feels closer to Mat and Perrin
than everybody else, including
Elayne and Aviendha, yet he feels even closer to Min. If we
recall that he and Mat and Perrin
have been friends since they were all babies, it casts a new
light on his kinship with Min. Can it be
that his relationship with Min predates his rebirth? Perhaps as
LTT and Ilyena?
What makes this statement even more remarkable is that he made it
within a few minutes of her
arrival in Caemlyn. Prior to this meeting, they had been
together only twice: the first time, very
briefly, when the party stopped at Baerlon during their flight
from the Two Rivers (tEotW,
Chapter 15 "Strangers and Friends"); the second time after the
battle in the clouds with Ishamael
(tGH, Chapter 48, "The Claiming") and during the subsequent
retreat for the winter at the
beginning of tDR. During both these times there is no indication
that they spent much time
together by themselves. Yet, only a few minutes after meeting
her for the third time, he is
declaring that, in effect, she puts his soul at peace. The
conclusion is inescapable: when she came
to him in Caemlyn, Rand had no other pressing matters (such as
him fleeing for his life, or
recovering from death's door and declaring himself the Dragon) to
distract his attention, and he
immediately recognized her as his "soulmate". Recall that by this
time Rand was retrieving more and more
of his thoughts and memories as Lew Therin.
In Conclusion
I believe RJ wants us to look beyond the superficial resemblance
of hair color and names, and
look more closely at Rand's relationship with the three girls, to
find Ilyena. Of course it is entirely possible that none of the
three girls is Ilyena; that the pattern has merely found
three girls who, together, are going to do for Rand what Ilyena
did for LTT. After all,
considering the catastrophic end of the Dragon's last
incarnation, and the suffering he is
undergoing in this one, the creator may feel that he owes his
champion one (or three !). But if any
of the three is Ilyena, it has to be Min.
Potential Argument Against Min Being Ilyena
The strongest argument that can be advanced against Min being
Ilyena reborn is that Ilyena may have been a channeler.
There have been very few references to Ilyena in the books other
than Lews Therin's mad maunderings, certainly not enough for us
to make any judgements about who or what she was, and the
fragmentary evidence we have is inconclusive. First, the
evidence against her being a channeler: In (tFoH, Chapter 6,
"Gateways"). Lanfear appears in Rand's room in Rhuidean, just as
he is hiding the male and female access ter'angreals. She
glimpses the two ter'angreals, and suggests to Rand that with the
power of those two together they can supplant the DO, challenge
even the creator, etc. Examine carefully Rand's response.
"You were always ambitious, Mierin." His voice grated in his
ears. "Why do you think I
turned from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think.
You were out of my heart
long before I _met_ her (emphasis mine). Ambition is all there
is to you. Power is all you ever
wanted. You disgust me!"
Obviously, this is Lews Therin speaking, and he is telling us he
broke up with Lanfear even before
he _met_ Ilyena. This may be pretty thin, but considering that
Lews Therin was the head of the Aes Sedai, and had been for a
long
time, it is reasonable to suppose that if Ilyena were another Aes
Sedai he would have known her even while he was with Lanfear.
Next, the evidence for her being a channeler. Consider the scene
in the Prologue of tEotW. Lews Therin has killed every
member of his family. He steps over the body of a golden-haired
woman (Ilyena), her eyes still open in disbelief. Now here comes
the conjecture. The guide says, IIRC, that a) the War of the
Power started about 50 years after Lanfear opened the bore; b)
the War of Power lasted 10 years; and c) Lews and Ilyena were
married for at least 10 years before the bore was opened. From
this, I surmise that Ilyena had to be at least 90 years old at
the time of her death, assuming she got married at about 20. The
scene in tEotW Prologue does not mention Ilyena as a shriveled
old woman. Since only AS appear young-looking at ages over 90,
then Ilyena must have been an AS, if our assumption that Ilyena
was young-looking when she died is correct, and IF WE CAN BELIEVE
THE GUIDE.
The question is, if Ilyena was an AS in the AoL, does that
automatically rule out Min as Ilyena reborn? Not necessarily.
We don't know exactly what happened in the final moments before
Ilyena died. The Prologue mentions her eyes still open in
disbelief. Is it possible that, if she was an AS, she tried to
shield Lews Therin when he started on his rampage, and Lews
stilled before killing her? If so, that would account for the
look of disbelief on her face when she died, and the fact that
she has been reborn as a non-channeler (albeit one with special
powers of her own).
Comment by Richard Gelmorn
IMHO, I think you are reaching here. I think that Min's soothing
of Rand has much to do with
the fact that Min is well aware that there will be 3 women in his
life and since she knows its a
fact just gets on with it. She is also "normal" whereas Elayne
and Aviendha are not only AS (or
equiv) but rather wrapped up in the fact. Hardly the kind of
relaxed atmosphere that Rand needs
and Min provides..... Avi and Elayne are also too intimately
entwined with his position rather
than himself....
Response to Gelmorn's Comment
This observation in fact partly reinforces my conclusion that it
is Min, not Elayne, who is Ilyena
(that is assuming any of the three is Ilyena). In part, I
selected Min because of the remarkable
speed with which he came to the conclusion that he could trust
her even above his boyhood
friends. By every available evidence, both Elayne and Aviendha
had spent much more intimate
moments with him, in the case of Aviendha over a considerably
longer period. Yet, he wasn't
even sure if he really loved them. Would he have been so
ambivalent if either of them was Ilyena?
I would think the real Ilyena would immediately strike a deep
cord within him; the LTT part of his
mind would recognize her (just as the heroes of the horn
recognized Rand as LTT) and much of
the ambivalence he shows about his feelings for Elayne and
Aviendha would not be present. The
only one for which he shows the kind of soul-to-soul connection I
would expect between
LTT/Rand and Ilyena/??? is Min. Second, as mentioned in the
comment, both Elayne and
Aviendha appear more wrapped up in his position and helping him
in his fight against the shadow
than as a man who needs the love and sustenance they could
provide. Would the real Ilyena have
such mixed-up priorities? It seems to me that Min is the one
whose role involves caring for him
as a man, which is what I expect the reborn Ilyena to be.
This page was last updated on July 02, 1998 @ 4:30 PM.
Copyright 1998 by KOBY KOBIA
Mathius
<snip>
> Elayne, is Ilyena reborn . Knowing how RJ enjoys burying such
> insights deep, I think we should look deeper in the books for the
> clues buried there and forget about hair color. Here's what I
> found.
Yes, but didn't Rand have flashbacks from LTT's voice in his head
speaking of Illenya when he was thinking of/around Elayne? I seem to
remember this being the case...
> The Shadow Impersonating Min Hurts Rand the Most
<snip>
> Isn't it remarkable that the shadow using the face of Min, at
> that time a comparative stranger, hurt
> Rand more than the impersonation of his father, his mother, and
> his two boyhood friends? What
Yes? So? But none of the people in his dream were Elayne, so how do we
know Rand wouldn't have felt even worse had it been her?
> about the extraordinary calming effect Min's presence has on him?
> And why is he so sure that Min
> would be the last person to hurt him, even though he doesn't know
> why? If we recall that Artur
> Hawkwing and the heroes of the horn recognized Rand at once as
> Lews Therin, even though he
> looked completely different, we find a reasonable answer. I
> submit that what is happening here is
> his subconscious mind, Lews Therin, has recognized Min as Ilyena,
> but his conscious mind, Rand,
> is not aware of the fact, only that he can trust her above all
> others.
It couldn't simply be that Rand feels comfortable with her because she's
not trying to be some Aes Sedai, she's just as simple country girl
(something he can relate to), she never really pressures him (unless he
gets carried away ala _the bath_) and she doesn't treat him like the
Dragon Reborn?
> Rand's Feelings For Each of the Girls
<snip>
> RJ constantly reminded us that Rand is not sure if he loves
> either girl. In (tFoH, Chapter 50, "To
Yes, Rand purposed to Avienda out of duty, but he also felt awkward and
alone when Avienda avoided him thereafter, indicating that he felt
something for her.
> Teach and Learn"), Elayne and Nynaeve have arrived in Salidar.
> Elayne quickly seeks out Min
> and questions her about her (Min's) viewing concerning Rand and
> her (Elayne):
> "Min, you had a viewing about Rand and me, didn't you?" She
> went two steps before she
> realized the other woman had stopped.
> "Yes." It was a wary word.
> "You saw that we were going to fall in love."
> "Not exactly. I saw you'd fall in love with him. I don't know
> what he feels for you, only that he's
> tied to you in some way."
>
> Since we know that Min is never wrong when a viewing is involved,
> I think RJ is here giving us
> the clearest possible hint that Elayne is not exactly the love of
> Rand's life, which she definitely
> would have been if she were Ilyena.
I think you're reading too much into it. I think it's simply one of two
things. First off, Min has viewings, she's not a mind reader, so it's
not unlikely that she can't figure out Rand's thoughts by a viewing, I
don't remember her ever doing that with anyone else. Second, Rand's
feelings probably aren't clear to begin with. It's obvious that he has
feelings for all 3 of them.
> When Min took her turn to be with him in LoC, RJ began dropping
> hints that this time the
> relationship might be different. For example, why did he tell us
> that Rand tended to snap at
> people and was generally short tempered when Min chose to spend
> some time with the Wise Ones
> and away from him? (LoC, Chapter 50, "Threads"). Those are the
> classic symptoms of a lovesick
> person. Despite RJ muddying the waters somewhat by making Min
Again, so? Of course he was lovesick, he loves Min, but he also feels
he loves the other 2 girls. He was probably quite lonely too, trapped
behind duty when Min wasn't around to call him "you wooley-headed
sheepherder".
<snip>
> It seems to me that RJ here finally showed his hand by making
> Rand verbalize his love for Min,
> feelings he was not even sure he had for Elayne or Aviendha.
> True, he told Min that he loved
> Elayne and Aviendha too, but then notice that he said it to Min,
> not to them, and RJ makes it
> clear he wanted to shock Min with that declaration.
It seems to me that Rand had already tried to express his love to Elayne
in the Stone of Tear, though he was too shy at the time and
inexperienced with women to come right out and say "I'm in love with
you". As for Avienda, his relationship with her was a difficult one and
I'm sure he didn't know how she would take it. He often found it hard
being around her because he couldn't _be with her_ when she was around
because of the way she kept treating him due to her feelings that Rand
belonged to Elayne and she had betrayed that.
> The Clincher
<snip>
> Rand is here indicating that he feels closer to Mat and Perrin
> than everybody else, including
> Elayne and Aviendha, yet he feels even closer to Min. If we
<blink> Where does it say that? It says he feels more comfortable, it
doesn't say anything about closeness. Lots of people are shy or
embarassed, or reluctant to come out and tell someone they love them, or
ask them out on a date, or whatever.
> recall that he and Mat and Perrin
> have been friends since they were all babies, it casts a new
> light on his kinship with Min. Can it be
> that his relationship with Min predates his rebirth? Perhaps as
> LTT and Ilyena?
Again, I think you're reading way too much into it. I think it just has
to do with the fact that Min's background is much closer to Rand's than
Elayne who grew up the life of a princess, and Avienda who's strange
Aiel ways are still so foreign to him.
<snip>
> declaring that, in effect, she puts his soul at peace. The
> conclusion is inescapable: when she came
<snip>
> immediately recognized her as his "soulmate". Recall that by this
> time Rand was retrieving more and more
> of his thoughts and memories as Lew Therin.
Of course he feels something of a soulmate to Min. She makes him
comfortable. He can be himself around her, he doesn't feel the need to
impress her. Rand felt very intimidated by Elayne's status, and Avienda
was extremely cold to him when he intended to be nice to her.
> In Conclusion
> I believe RJ wants us to look beyond the superficial resemblance
> of hair color and names, and
Of course he does. But there's not an entirely huge amount of facts
that would indicate Elayne as being Illyena either, so you could make an
arguement for either.
<snip>
> champion one (or three !). But if any
> of the three is Ilyena, it has to be Min.
<blink> It does does it? Why's that? Certainly not because you've
said so, and I find your evidence far from convincing enough to make it
beyond a doubt.
> Potential Argument Against Min Being Ilyena
>
> The strongest argument that can be advanced against Min being
> Ilyena reborn is that Ilyena may have been a channeler.
Huh? Ok, if you say so. We have very little evidence for any of them,
let alone any evidence that Illyena was a channeler, but this is the
biggest arguement... Yup.. Ok.
<snip>
was young-looking when she died is correct, and IF WE CAN BELIEVE
> THE GUIDE.
Granted, the artwork is horrible, but RJ stands by the guide as far as I
know, so why couldn't we believe it?
> Comment by Richard Gelmorn
>
> IMHO, I think you are reaching here. I think that Min's soothing
> of Rand has much to do with
> the fact that Min is well aware that there will be 3 women in his
> life and since she knows its a
> fact just gets on with it. She is also "normal" whereas Elayne
> and Aviendha are not only AS (or
> equiv) but rather wrapped up in the fact. Hardly the kind of
> relaxed atmosphere that Rand needs
> and Min provides..... Avi and Elayne are also too intimately
> entwined with his position rather
> than himself....
Amen Richard.
> Response to Gelmorn's Comment
<snip>
Whatever.
Jonathan Kent
: So, I think Elayne is a red herring. For my money, Min, not
: Elayne, is Ilyena reborn . Knowing how RJ enjoys burying such
: insights deep, I think we should look deeper in the books for the
: clues buried there and forget about hair color. Here's what I
: found.
: The Clincher
:
: Rand is here indicating that he feels closer to Mat and Perrin
: than everybody else, including
: Elayne and Aviendha, yet he feels even closer to Min. If we
: recall that he and Mat and Perrin
: have been friends since they were all babies, it casts a new
: light on his kinship with Min. Can it be
: that his relationship with Min predates his rebirth? Perhaps as
: LTT and Ilyena?
: What makes this statement even more remarkable is that he made it
: within a few minutes of her
: arrival in Caemlyn. Prior to this meeting, they had been
: together only twice: the first time, very
: briefly, when the party stopped at Baerlon during their flight
: from the Two Rivers (tEotW,
I think this is just Jordan trying to work in the love of the third
party in a quick and somewhat sloppy way. He needed a character who
wasn't busy to act as an anchor for the DR, and he was trying to make it
seem as if there was more there than there probably should have been.
But I suppose that could be tavereen effect, too.
Jonathan
: that they spent much time
: together by themselves. Yet, only a few minutes after meeting
: her for the third time, he is
: declaring that, in effect, she puts his soul at peace. The
: conclusion is inescapable: when she came
--
"Yeah, that John Denver's full of shit."
Loyd Christmas