How good are the Aiel?
Chris
It appears that blademasters in the WOT are better by an order of magnitude
than even the best regular soldiers (ie: Rand beats five men at the same
time and then loses to the Tairen High Lord Darlin who is a blademaster);
but I am trying to figure out where the average Aiel is. They are obviously
better than the average say Andoran or Tairen soldier, but how close are
they to being a nation of blademasters? See, Mat takes on a couple of
blademasters and beats them (the aforementioned High Lord Darline in the
Dragon Reborn when he is running through the Stone; and then takes out Galad
who was just about at Blademaster level as he is described as being about as
equal as the Warders, who I think are all blademasters); and then he barely
beats Couladin, just another inch and he dies...and he takes on Mydraal and
wins, which is something we have only seen Lan do one on one. So if
Couladin can almost beat Mat, and that is after Mat had his memory filled up
and he had that new staff, do you think that most Aiel are near blademaster
level?
We do constantly hear of their fighting prowness,,,,
Thanks
Chris
Chi Cheung
or 4 fades?
This was the time when Egwene, Nyaneve and Elayne were captured... The 6
Aiel didn't have to fight the Fades cause the women took em out, but the
Aiel's analysis was that it would have been a close fight, with each side
taking massive losses if they had fought. I think that blademasters are
significantly better than fades (but not enough to take them 2 on 1...) and
since the average Aiel isn't as good as an average fade, that makes a
blademaster quite a bit better than an Aiel...
--DarkHound
www.worldofdreams.com/chi
Chris <cslo...@transport.com> wrote in message
news:e53Q3.28899$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
Willum
Chris <cslo...@transport.com> wrote in message
news:e53Q3.28899$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
> I have a question....
>
> It appears that blademasters in the WOT are better by an order of
magnitude
> than even the best regular soldiers (ie: Rand beats five men at the same
> time and then loses to the Tairen High Lord Darlin who is a blademaster);
> but I am trying to figure out where the average Aiel is. They are
obviously
> better than the average say Andoran or Tairen soldier
But not, IMO better than the average Borderland fighting man, who will be
every bit as strong and skillful as the typical Aiel warrior.
, but how close are
> they to being a nation of blademasters? See, Mat takes on a couple of
> blademasters and beats them
Don't forget the influence of Ta'veren. How do we know for sure when his
victories are 100% his effort, 70% effort and 30% luck, 50% luck and 50%
effort, and 70% luck and 30% effort?
(the aforementioned High Lord Darline in the
> Dragon Reborn when he is running through the Stone; and then takes out
Galad
> who was just about at Blademaster level as he is described as being about
as
> equal as the Warders, who I think are all blademasters); and then he
barely
> beats Couladin, just another inch and he dies...and he takes on Mydraal
and
> wins, which is something we have only seen Lan do one on one. So if
> Couladin can almost beat Mat, and that is after Mat had his memory filled
up
> and he had that new staff, do you think that most Aiel are near
blademaster
> level?
I don't think so. Personally, I find the idea of normal Aiel outclassing
hardended Randland veteran warriors laughable. Someone such as Uno for
example, is not one I would consider blademaster level, but I think he
would be more than up to the task of taking on the typical Aiel warrior.
Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite capable
of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
blademasters.
They are proffessional fighting men, and their fighting prowess is just as
important to their survival as an Aiel warriors is to theirs. And keep in
mind that even in the most martial of cultures (Medieval Europe and Japan
for example) where martial prowess was THE most valued quality, skill
levels varied quite alot. Not every knight or Samurai was a master
swordsman, nor was every archer an ace shot. In reality, not every Aiel
would be an expert fighter. Many would, but not all.
The best of the Aiel however, such as Rhuarc, would be close to if not on a
par with a true Master swordsman/ blademaster. Every and any society can
produce expert warriors. I really see no reason why the Aiel would be so
much better than say, borderlanders who must train and fight every day to
hold back the blight.
>
> We do constantly hear of their fighting prowness,,,,
Yes, but I think much of their prowess comes from their numerical strength
and from their ability to utilize their surroundings (in the Waste
especially). But in a numerically equal, open battle against hardened
Randland veterans, I don't think they would dominate as some people think.
The Aiel system of fighting is ONE way to fight. It is not the ONLY way to
fight, nor is it the BEST way to fight in every situation.
--
Willum,
"One who is a Samurai must, before all things, keep constantly in mind, by
day and by night, the fact that he has to die."
- Daidoji Yuzan -16th C.
http://members.xoom.com/greatsword/index.htm
Chris
Willum <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote in message
>
> I don't think so. Personally, I find the idea of normal Aiel outclassing
> hardended Randland veteran warriors laughable. Someone such as Uno for
> example, is not one I would consider blademaster level, but I think he
> would be more than up to the task of taking on the typical Aiel warrior.
> Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite capable
> of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> blademasters.
Yes, but Gawyn, who took out Warder's in the Tower coup is probable about
the level of a blademaster, I mean, he killed the Warder that was training
future Warders. And Tallanvor I think is pretty close, just from Mat's
experince with him for example, when he was so quick with his sword.
And in the Aiel War when only four clans crossed the mountains they
decimated every army that went against them. And that was only 4 clans. So
while there was probably dissension in the Randland side, still that is
impressive.
In addition, they run like horses, ignore wounds, and can disapear in
Randland as well as the waste (ie in the Dragon Reborn tons of Aiel in the
city, Lan sees a couple but there are many he didn't) The Aiel stamina,
ability to hide and pure fighting skill puts them above the average Randland
soldier (the bordermen would be close, but still not as good IMO); and I
think that there are lot of Aiel who could go one on one with a Fade and
probably with a blademaster (they still might lose but its not a total
mismatch as it would be for an average Randlander)
I think that the Aiel's overall toughness, stamina, and fighting ability
would make them better one on one that then average borderlander. That and
their total lack of fear.
Yorthen the High
>
> Couladin can almost beat Mat, and that is after Mat had his memory filled up
> and he had that new staff, do you think that most Aiel are near blademaster
> level?
Couladin was, if I'm not totally wrong, one of the better
fighters of the Aiel.
--
Yorthen the High
Bribe not tax-collector. If he will betray the throne,
will he not betray thee also?
The Proverbs of Nedra
- The Rivan Codex, Eddings
Yorthen the High
>
> I don't think so. Personally, I find the idea of normal Aiel outclassing
> hardended Randland veteran warriors laughable. Someone such as Uno for
> example, is not one I would consider blademaster level, but I think he
> would be more than up to the task of taking on the typical Aiel warrior.
> Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite capable
> of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> blademasters.
BTW: How good is Gawyn? Hi killed both Hammar and Coulin, who
Galad didn't manage to beat in training some time back.
> >
> > We do constantly hear of their fighting prowness,,,,
That is IMO because they fight in groups and surprises the
enemy. So when the enemy realizes what happened some of them are
already dead.
Willum
<fighting and the Aiel>
> > Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite
capable
> > of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> > blademasters.
>
> Yes, but Gawyn, who took out Warder's in the Tower coup is probable about
> the level of a blademaster, I mean, he killed the Warder that was
training
> future Warders. And Tallanvor I think is pretty close, just from Mat's
> experince with him for example, when he was so quick with his sword.
I don't think you are being fair to the warriors of Randland. You seem to
want to scoup them into one of two categories, either simple and easily
beaten fighters who are no match for the mighty Aiel, or Blademasters
(which presumabley accounts for why they stand a chance against the Aiel).
In reality warriors would run the full scale of skill levels, just as the
Aiel do.
Uno, Tallanvor and Ingtar are not blademasters, and trying to push them up
into that category in order to explain why they can fight the Aiel is
silly. The fact is that you don't have to be a blademaster to face and beat
the Aiel, you just have to be a good warrior. The Aiel are not invincible,
and each individual Aiel is hardly an expert fighter. A higher proportion
of them, perhaps, when compared to the more peaceful areas of Randland. But
that does not hold sway for the Borderlands, where fighters must be every
bit as tough and skilled as any Aiel, because they are fighting every day
for their lives and their countries, often against seemingly insurmountable
odds.
> And in the Aiel War when only four clans crossed the mountains they
> decimated every army that went against them. And that was only 4 clans.
Ah, but IIRC, that is still a very large number. For everyone: how many
number a typical Aiel clan?
> So
> while there was probably dissension in the Randland side, still that is
> impressive.
>
> In addition, they run like horses,
They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still constrained by
the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
> ignore wounds,
Well, I am sure most of the best warriors from EVERY culture are capable of
ignoring/controlling the _pain_ they feel from wounds, but no-one can
ignore _wounds_ as such. The Aiel still bleed, and they will still die of
blood loss or massive trauma like any other warrior. Tissue damage is
tissue damage, and barring the influence of the OP (such as in the Warder
Bond) the Aiel are still constrained within the limits of human endurance.
and can disapear in
> Randland as well as the waste (ie in the Dragon Reborn tons of Aiel in
the
> city, Lan sees a couple but there are many he didn't) The Aiel stamina,
> ability to hide and pure fighting skill puts them above the average
Randland
> soldier (the bordermen would be close, but still not as good IMO);
Why? Don't you think that training for and fighting in the Blight and the
Borderlands, against Trollocs and Myrdraal would condition the Borderland
warriors just as well as the Aiel fighting against eachother? The Aiel are
rightly feared by the armies of the Shadow, but this is in large part due
to their great numbers, IMO. The Borderlanders, from what we have seen, are
holding back the Blight with many less men. To me, that would indicate that
they are every bit as good as the Aiel.
and I
> think that there are lot of Aiel who could go one on one with a Fade and
> probably with a blademaster (they still might lose but its not a total
> mismatch as it would be for an average Randlander)
The typical Aiel would certainly be a good warrior, but he would not be an
expert. And your point about the Aiel going up against a Fade holds true
for the Borderlanders (non-blademasters) as well. Many of them _have_ gone
one on one with Fades (ala Ingtar in TGH).
>
> I think that the Aiel's overall toughness, stamina, and fighting ability
> would make them better one on one that then average borderlander. That
and
> their total lack of fear.
You don't think facing down the Blight and the Shadowspawn originating from
it is courageous enough?
Chris
Well, that is not what I really meant; I see the Aiel as being better than
pretty much all of the Randland warriors (borderlander's included) and not
the level of blademaster, but still much closer than the warriors in
Randland. I didn't mean to lump all of randland into either blademaster or
simpleton. So sorry for my poor writing.
But I think that every Aiel warrior is an expert fighter; they are
constantly fighting each other, chillin in the blight for fun, etc. The
average aiel warrior would be able to take on the average borderlander and
win more times than lose. They are just better overall warriors; the
Borderlanders are tough yes, but they just haven't been described in the
books in such a way as to have that auro of invincability.
>
> > And in the Aiel War when only four clans crossed the mountains they
> > decimated every army that went against them. And that was only 4 clans.
>
> Ah, but IIRC, that is still a very large number. For everyone: how many
> number a typical Aiel clan?
>
> > So
> > while there was probably dissension in the Randland side, still that is
> > impressive.
> >
> > In addition, they run like horses,
>
> They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still constrained by
> the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
> outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
Well, my statement was more of an example of hyperbole or humorous
reference. Of course the Aiel don't really run like horses, but It is
readily apparent that they are faster and have much more stamina than any
warrior in Randland. They can move faster than Mat's Band which is probably
the best trained band of fighters in Randland.
>
> > ignore wounds,
>
> Well, I am sure most of the best warriors from EVERY culture are capable
of
> ignoring/controlling the _pain_ they feel from wounds, but no-one can
> ignore _wounds_ as such. The Aiel still bleed, and they will still die of
> blood loss or massive trauma like any other warrior. Tissue damage is
> tissue damage, and barring the influence of the OP (such as in the Warder
> Bond) the Aiel are still constrained within the limits of human endurance.
Well, we hear alot about Aiel ignoring wounds, dying without sound, breaking
a leg and not carrying etc; but not alot about that from Randlanders. For
example, when teh Aiel were fighting Fades when saving Nynaeve, Elayne &
Egewen in Dragon Reborn, they were dying without making a sound. Now this
does not necessarily say they ignore wounds, but the fact they can hold
their tongue as they die, says a lot for their pain tolerance.
>
> and can disapear in
> > Randland as well as the waste (ie in the Dragon Reborn tons of Aiel in
> the
> > city, Lan sees a couple but there are many he didn't) The Aiel stamina,
> > ability to hide and pure fighting skill puts them above the average
> Randland
> > soldier (the bordermen would be close, but still not as good IMO);
> Why? Don't you think that training for and fighting in the Blight and the
> Borderlands, against Trollocs and Myrdraal would condition the Borderland
> warriors just as well as the Aiel fighting against eachother? The Aiel are
> rightly feared by the armies of the Shadow, but this is in large part due
> to their great numbers, IMO. The Borderlanders, from what we have seen,
are
> holding back the Blight with many less men. To me, that would indicate
that
> they are every bit as good as the Aiel.
Well for one example about the Blight, the Trollocs poured out and overran
the borderlanders without alot of trouble; teh Trollocs who poured into the
Waste learned to call it the Dying Land. We haven't heard of any such name
of the Trollocs for Randland
Nu Killer Bee
> I have a question....
>
> It appears that blademasters in the WOT are better by an order of magnitude
> than even the best regular soldiers (ie: Rand beats five men at the same
> time and then loses to the Tairen High Lord Darlin who is a blademaster);
Rand didn't lose to Darlin. They didn't even fought. You must meant Toram
Riatin.
I am not quite sure, but I think Rand lost to Toram because (1) Toram was in
a battle fury, (2) Rand was distracted momentarily by the sudden commotion
outside, and the tent snapping away.
> but I am trying to figure out where the average Aiel is. They are obviously
> better than the average say Andoran or Tairen soldier, but how close are
> they to being a nation of blademasters? See, Mat takes on a couple of
> blademasters and beats them (the aforementioned High Lord Darline in the
Mat almost lost to Darlin, but finally won because he went on the all out
attack.
> Dragon Reborn when he is running through the Stone; and then takes out Galad
> who was just about at Blademaster level as he is described as being about as
> equal as the Warders, who I think are all blademasters); and then he barely
> beats Couladin, just another inch and he dies...and he takes on Mydraal and
> wins, which is something we have only seen Lan do one on one. So if
> Couladin can almost beat Mat, and that is after Mat had his memory filled up
> and he had that new staff, do you think that most Aiel are near blademaster
> level?
>
Couladin was mentioned as one of the better Aiel fighter and he was fighting
like a mad beast to get to Rand.
We also "saw" Ingtar killed a fade in Fal Dara.
Conclusion: In WoT, it seemed that a person mostly wins a fight when he forgets
about defence (or became too enrage to think about defence) and go on the all
out attack.
--
Nu Killer Bee
"The world would be a dull place without chili."
Adam G. Lenfestey
> We also "saw" Ingtar killed a fade in Fal Dara.
Ingtar didn't kill the fade in Fal Dara; he told Rand later on that it had lost
interest and wandered off when Rand left. Then again, since he was a DF he
probably wouldn't have had to fight it anyway unless people were watching.
That makes for an interesting question; can fades "sense" whether someone is a DF
or not?
Adam
Philip Alan Thomann
I think that the real secret behind the Aiel isn't that they make for
the best warriors, but that they generally make for the best armies.
If you take a randland-propper nation's fighting men and put them into
the field, thats more or less what you're stuck with- a bunch of guys in
a battle. Do the same with an Aiel Clan and what you have is a pretty
effective battle group divided into combat-effective detachments (septs)
and within each detachment are specialized troops who know what they're
about and are able to integrate thier efforts with other specialists to
form a cohesive whole. (Maidens for scouting, Stone Dogs for rear-gaurd,
from what I've read I think the Black Eyes are shock-troops, and an
argument between Rhurac and the Maidens suggests that Rhurac's personal
society (thunder walkers?) is the recon-in-force element, etc...).
Which IMHO gives me a much more satisfactory reason why 4 clans were
able to have their way with things rather than each Aiel being some kind
of superman.
--
Philip Thomann
Robert McNeil
"Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
>
> Chris <cslo...@transport.com> wrote in message
> news:e53Q3.28899$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
> > I have a question....
> >
> > It appears that blademasters in the WOT are better by an order of
> magnitude
> > than even the best regular soldiers (ie: Rand beats five men at the
same
> > time and then loses to the Tairen High Lord Darlin who is a
blademaster);
> obviously
>
> But not, IMO better than the average Borderland fighting man, who will
be
> every bit as strong and skillful as the typical Aiel warrior.
>
> > they to being a nation of blademasters? See, Mat takes on a couple
of
> > blademasters and beats them
>
his
> victories are 100% his effort, 70% effort and 30% luck, 50% luck and
50%
> effort, and 70% luck and 30% effort?
>
out
> Galad
> > who was just about at Blademaster level as he is described as being
about
> as
> > equal as the Warders, who I think are all blademasters); and then he
> barely
> > beats Couladin, just another inch and he dies...and he takes on
Mydraal
> and
> > wins, which is something we have only seen Lan do one on one. So if
> > Couladin can almost beat Mat, and that is after Mat had his memory
filled
> up
> > and he had that new staff, do you think that most Aiel are near
> blademaster
> > level?
>
outclassing
> hardended Randland veteran warriors laughable. Someone such as Uno for
> example, is not one I would consider blademaster level, but I think he
> would be more than up to the task of taking on the typical Aiel
warrior.
warriors. No, they don't have the task of holding back the blight, but
they live near it. Trollocs don't come to the waste without very good
reason. They don't raid them like they do the borderlands. Why? Ask
yourself, (and no the answer isn't that they don't have anything as
that's not why trollocs raid the borderlands)But I agree with your base
statement that _most_ Aiel are not blademaster level, but I would say
that a higher percentage of them are as compared with any other culture
in RL.
> Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite
capable
> of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> blademasters.
>
Tallanvor is the only person in this group that you've listed that I
_don't_ consider at least blademaster level.
> They are proffessional fighting men, and their fighting prowess is
just as
> important to their survival as an Aiel warriors is to theirs. And keep
in
I have to disagree with you on this point. Though the borderlanders do
live in a state of martial readiness, they don't have the same kind of
culture that the Aiel do. Taking into account exceptional examples, Lan,
Galad, and a few others, I would say that the _top_ Aiel warriors would
be better than a bladmaster. Blademasters aren't all as good as Lan and
Galad. In fact, I don't think they come close to those two.
> >
> > We do constantly hear of their fighting prowness,,,,
>
> Yes, but I think much of their prowess comes from their numerical
strength
> and from their ability to utilize their surroundings (in the Waste
> especially). But in a numerically equal, open battle against hardened
> Randland veterans, I don't think they would dominate as some people
think.
>
Again, I have to disagree. Nearly all of the kingdoms banded together to
hold off just a few clans that came over the dragonwall during the Aiel
War. I don't think that the Aiel had numerical sureiority there. The
reason that the Aiel are feared as a fighting force is the fact that
they not only keep up with mounted troops, they're more flexible than
them. Where else can you get an army that are all trained not only with
spear and sheild but with the bow and their hands and feet? And their
physical condition, for the most part, they are tall and muscular with
good reach and good reflexes. And that's the 'average' Aiel think about
having a whole troop of them that are superior to the average Aiel!
> The Aiel system of fighting is ONE way to fight. It is not the ONLY
way to
> fight, nor is it the BEST way to fight in every situation.
>
For my money, it's the best way for the greatest amount of situations.
Think about it, really think about what you know of the Aiel and then
think what _you_ would do if you had troops like that. Then you will
know why the Aiel are the most feared fighters in RL.
>
>
--
-Robert McNeil-
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert McNeil
> >
> > Willum <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote in message
>
>
> They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still
constrained by
> the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
> outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
>
During the Illian campaign High lord Wieramon ran his horses ahead of
the foot, but the Aiel kept up. And more than once we've had been shown
what kind of distances they can cover. But it's not just that they can
run as fast as horses, they can cover ground that horses can't. Don't
try and use the "that's impossible!" arguement, as it's a fantasy book
and things that we normally consider impossible are quite commonplace
there.
<snip to end>
Jon Tullett
Robert McNeil <Ledg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7v4cu1$23d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38141...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au>,
> "Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Chris <cslo...@transport.com> wrote in message
> > news:pDnQ3.32313$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
> > >
> > > Willum <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote in message
> >
> <snip other context that I dicsuss in another post.>
> >
> > They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still
> constrained by
> > the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
> > outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
> >
> Whether or not you think that it's nonsense, they can and they did.
> During the Illian campaign High lord Wieramon ran his horses ahead of
> the foot, but the Aiel kept up.
I don't think it's all that implausible. After all, the horses wouldn't have
been galloping that whole way - a fair trot is probably a likely average
speed. Remember that they were still needed for fighting at some point! I
can easily imagine an Aiel running for all the daylight hours - marathon
runners can do that - so they could probably very nearly pace the horsemen,
leaving only a short(ish) distance to make up at the end of every day.
Also, I imagine the Aiel don't take very long to set/strike camp, so they
might conceivably have a bit more travel time to work with.
Plenty of "ifs" in there, but the idea of infantry keeping up with horse
doesn't trouble me that much, in context.
-Jon
Robert McNeil
up with horsemen.
Robert McNeil
tho...@jec322.rcs.rpi.edu (Philip Alan Thomann) wrote:
<Snip>
>
> Which IMHO gives me a much more satisfactory reason why 4 clans were
> able to have their way with things rather than each Aiel being some
kind
> of superman.
> --
Alice
advantages that they might have anyway. Each Aiel is descended from a line
of male warriors and a line of female warriors, or the daughters of
warrior(s). Weaker Aiel may not survive long enough to really make an
effect on the gene pool: "weak things die in the waste". So you have a
"survival of the fittest" type effect where the weak are culled out by the
harshness of the environment. While borderlanders may also have this sort
of genetic advantage (from holding back the blight), i don't think it is as
marked - and is not as necessary for day to day survival. However, I'm not
really sure as to how many generations the Aiel have been living in the
waste, but chances are, it is enough so that it would be reflected
evolutionarily.
Yay, evolution.
alice.
Jasper Janssen
>If you take a randland-propper nation's fighting men and put them into
>the field, thats more or less what you're stuck with- a bunch of guys in
>a battle. Do the same with an Aiel Clan and what you have is a pretty
>effective battle group divided into combat-effective detachments (septs)
>and within each detachment are specialized troops who know what they're
>about and are able to integrate thier efforts with other specialists to
>form a cohesive whole. (Maidens for scouting, Stone Dogs for rear-gaurd,
>from what I've read I think the Black Eyes are shock-troops, and an
>argument between Rhurac and the Maidens suggests that Rhurac's personal
>society (thunder walkers?) is the recon-in-force element, etc...).
>
>Which IMHO gives me a much more satisfactory reason why 4 clans were
>able to have their way with things rather than each Aiel being some kind
>of superman.
You forgot the numbers argument - 4 clans of Aiel, meant that ~ 60.000
(IIRC, don't have a cite at the moment - many tens of thousands, at
least) warriors came across the Dragonwall. These tens of thousands
went up against countries where a "pretty large army" would be a few
hundred men, up to maybe a thousand.
That alone made them essentially unbeatable.
Jasper
John Rowat
> tho...@jec322.rcs.rpi.edu (Philip Alan Thomann) wrote:
>> Which IMHO gives me a much more satisfactory reason why 4 clans were
>> able to have their way with things rather than each Aiel being some
>> kind of superman.
> They're not supermen, they're Fremen...
SAND! SAND! LOOK! SAND! SEE?
-John
--
"Can you tell me why / It seems so hard to carry on
When you hear a voice / From long ago, so bittersweet
Too late to turn back time, / To look over my shoulder.
Maybe one day I'll return again." -- Hammerfall, "Remember yesterday"
samuel toma
they will tell you that the downfall of the armored knights in western
europe was due to the wide spread use of the armor piercing bow and arrow as
a weapon. the longbows of england easily pierced much of the armor prevalent
in the middle ages, decreasing the value of the mounted armored knight to
the point where it would be a hindrance to be wearing the heavy cumbersome
armor. perhaps the short bows of the aiel are not as strong as the longbow
was, but the skill employed by the aiel makes up for this. all they have to
do is to shoot the horse to force the heavily armored man to fight on foot,
severely disadvantaging him against the light of foot aiel. look at their
weapons. the wetlanders use weapons designed for use against similarly armed
and trained forces, the aiel have unconventional methods that the wetlanders
cant counter. ...
Willum
> In article <38117...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au>,
> "Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Chris <cslo...@transport.com> wrote in message
> > news:e53Q3.28899$E_1.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
<the Aiel are not invincible>
> > I don't think so. Personally, I find the idea of normal Aiel
> outclassing
> > hardended Randland veteran warriors laughable. Someone such as Uno for
> > example, is not one I would consider blademaster level, but I think he
> > would be more than up to the task of taking on the typical Aiel
> warrior.
> ??Where did you pull that theory from??
Reading the books, common sense and my knowlege about the much underated
martial expertise of European medieval warriors.
Nearly _all_ Aiel are hardened
> warriors. No, they don't have the task of holding back the blight, but
> they live near it.
No, they don't. Some, who live far to the north, might live close to it,
but the majority of Aiel do not live anywhere near the blight. Most would
not have seen the blight (except those few who live near there or those
young bravados who try to test their mettle there.
And the Borderlanders are the ones holding back the Blight.
Trollocs don't come to the waste without very good
> reason. They don't raid them like they do the borderlands. Why? Ask
> yourself,
Huh? You are aware, I hope, that the Aiel _vastly_ outnumber the
Borderlanders guarding the blight, and that the climate of the Waste is as
much a killer as the Aiel themselves. I can imagine why the Trollocs call
the Waste the "Killing Ground". Because no doubt they would lose many from
the extreme heat, lack of water as well as the numerous Aiel, who are right
in their element.
(and no the answer isn't that they don't have anything as
> that's not why trollocs raid the borderlands)But I agree with your base
> statement that _most_ Aiel are not blademaster level, but I would say
> that a higher percentage of them are as compared with any other culture
> in RL.
See, this I disagree with. Without even going into the military technology
of the Aiel (including their lack of armor and lack of armor piecing
weapons) I have to wonder why so many more Aiel would be _Master Fighters_
then say, Borderlanders. Both are very martial, highly honor bound
cultures who train for war every day.
The Aiel primarily fight each other in the Waste, the Borderlanders fight
Shadowspawn in the Blight and the Borderlands. Why do you think fewer
Borderlanders would be expert fighters? Is fighting Trollocs and Myrdraal
so much easier than fighting humans?
>
> > Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite
> capable
> > of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> > blademasters.
> >
> Tallanvor is the only person in this group that you've listed that I
> _don't_ consider at least blademaster level.
You are far too easy with assigning Blademastership then. Ingtar is not a
Blademaster (he is certainly never identified as such in the books IIRC),
he is just a good example of a tough, skilled warrior who has been trained
since his youth to fight. That is why he is good, and many of the
Borderlanders would be just as good. They are not Blademasters, but they
are seasoned experts who can hold their own against anyone, including the
Aiel. Tallanvor too, is no master, but he too is a skilled soldier fully
capable of holding his own.
>
> > They are proffessional fighting men, and their fighting prowess is
> just as
> > important to their survival as an Aiel warriors is to theirs. And keep
> in
>
>
> I have to disagree with you on this point. Though the borderlanders do
> live in a state of martial readiness, they don't have the same kind of
> culture that the Aiel do.
I find many parrallels between the Borderland cultures and fuedal European
and Japanese cultures. They are military cultures, where strength, courage
and skill at arms are not only the most valued assets, but are neccessary
for survival and advancement.
Neccessity, and their very survival demands that they must be martial
cultures who prize military prowess. How could it be otherwise? If they
don't prize matial prowess, how long do you think their society will last?
The Aiel, on the other hand, could all have converted to the way of the
leaf (before Rand came) and been none the worse off. Apart from eachother,
they are not faced with an unrelenting enemy, as the Borderlanders are.
Taking into account exceptional examples, Lan,
> Galad, and a few others, I would say that the _top_ Aiel warriors would
> be better than a bladmaster.
Why? Please explain why the best warriors in Randland are inferior to the
Aiel? Bearing in mind that they fight in different climates and employ
different weapons, how can you be so confident of the absolute superioty of
the Aiel? I don't buy it, because no one culture has a monopoly on skilled
warriors. The Aiel culture is not, IMO, any more martial than say, Shienar,
nor is there any reason to assert that somehow the best Aiel are better
than anyone else.
> Blademasters aren't all as good as Lan and
> Galad. In fact, I don't think they come close to those two.
Galad, if he has been recognized as a blademaster, has only recently come
into it. We have only seen a fraction of the Blademasters in Randland, so
how can you make such assumptions? It stands to reason that there are other
blademasters around, some older and more experienced than Galad, who would
be more than a match for him.
And although Lan is probably the best man walking around Randland, I am
sure there are others who come close to him and before Galad. Galad is
still young, and despite his natural talent, he lacks the many years of
experience and seasoning of some of the better Borderlanders, Warders and
even Whitecloaks.
<snip>
> >But in a numerically equal, open battle against hardened
> > Randland veterans, I don't think they would dominate as some people
> think.
> >
> Again, I have to disagree. Nearly all of the kingdoms banded together to
> hold off just a few clans that came over the dragonwall during the Aiel
> War. I don't think that the Aiel had numerical sureiority there.
The Randland nations didn't band togehter until the Aiel had already
devastated Randland. It is not, as you seem to be eluding to, a case of all
the armies of Randland meeting the Aiel at the dragonwall. Rather, the Aiel
struck suddenly and Randland was caught offguard. Even at TV, with the
armies of many nations, there were, not surprisingly, problems with
leadership. The Aiel had no such problems and were fully united in their
cause.
The Aiel are tough and hardy fighters, but they are not all experts, nor is
their way of fighting the best in all situations. I am still wondering how,
with a hide buckler, short stabbing spears and no armor, they manage to
defeat mounted, plate armored lancers, armored infantry with pikes,
halberds and swords, archers with longbows, and crossbowmen. Their way of
war, while suited to the ritualistic clan warfare of the barren Waste, is
not suited against armored opponets in the colder climates of Randland.
> The
> reason that the Aiel are feared as a fighting force is the fact that
> they not only keep up with mounted troops,
Which is ridiculous. It is physcially impossible for humans to match horses
for speed. A human will never outrun a horse. Unless you are talking about
a march, in which case I would point out that Randland infantry (if they
are professionals used to campaigning) should be just as capable of
travelling long distances as the Aiel.
> they're more flexible than
> them. Where else can you get an army that are all trained not only with
> spear and sheild but with the bow and their hands and feet?
A professional infantryman will be trained with crossbow, pike, polearm,
sword, maybe great-sword/two-handed sword, dagger and wresling, striking
and disarming techniques, if the Randlanders follow similar traing
practices to the professional armies of Western Europe.
And the mounted warriors will be trained with lance,mace, shield, sword,
long-sword/ great-sword and polearm (halberds, axes, pikes), horsemanship
and also combat on foot with all the above weapons, including dagger,
wrestling, striking and disarms. In addition, they will have specific
techniques for use armored and unarmored, mounted and on foot. This is the
way real European warriors trained. I see no reason why Randland armies
(paricularly the Borderlanders) would be less prepared.
And their
> physical condition, for the most part, they are tall and muscular with
> good reach and good reflexes.
And any other Randland warrior, who trains every day for war, will develop
muscular strength, speed, power and improve their reflexes. Few people are
born expert warriors. Most if not all must train to develop these skills
and attributes, Aiel included.
And that's the 'average' Aiel think about
> having a whole troop of them that are superior to the average Aiel!
No different to having a whole troop of say, Sheinarins who are superior to
the average.
>
> > The Aiel system of fighting is ONE way to fight. It is not the ONLY
> way to
> > fight, nor is it the BEST way to fight in every situation.
> >
> For my money, it's the best way for the greatest amount of situations.
You have obviously never contemplated or researched the effect of armor, or
mounted warriors, and especially of mounted, armored warriors. The Aiel
system of fighting is IMHO, very restricted and infact, less effective in
many situations.
> Think about it, really think about what you know of the Aiel and then
> think what _you_ would do if you had troops like that. Then you will
> know why the Aiel are the most feared fighters in RL.
If I had my choice, I would choose an equal number of skilled veteran
Borderlanders in armor, with armor piecing weapons. I would only choose the
Aiel if I were fighting a battle in the Waste, where they are already
acclimatised and where they are most useful. Or if I could convince the
Aiel to employ armor.
I know that RJ has set up his Aiel as excellent fighters, and much feared.
But that is not enough for me to accept this auroa of invincibilty. I look
under the surface and see many shortcomings in the Aiel way of war. I see
no reason why the best warriors of Randland would not be just as well
trained, just as courageous and efficient as the Aiel. And I do see
shortcomings in the Aiel weapons and lack of armor.
There is a very good reason why the most martial cultures in history
employed armor. Because without it you are often at a disadvantage. To a
large extent the boom in unarmed martial arts in the late twentieth century
has lead to the false presumption that somehow _skilled warriors_ are
better off without armor or weapons. This is nonsense, and ask any student
of miliatry history or skilled, long term practioner of European or Asian
martial arts whether or not, if they had to go into a battle against
heavily armed and armored opponents, they would wear no armor and see their
reaction.
Willum
> > > In article <38141...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au>,
<snip>
> > Plenty of "ifs" in there, but the idea of infantry keeping up with
> horse
> > doesn't trouble me that much, in context.
In context, I agree. But I have seen that idea banded around as if it is an
absolute truth that Aiel can outrun horses. To which I say, phooey.
> It shouldn't, and it was Willum that had the problem with foot keeping
> up with horsemen.
Not in a march. Full time infantry can, obviously, keep up with horses in a
march, even a slow trot for a while. My objection was to the idea that the
Aiel could _outrun_ horses in a straight line. That is nonsense, and just
because this is a fantasy series, readers still have every right to expect
realistic limits, unless magic (the OP) is actually involved. Otherwise it
becomes hard to suspend one's disbelief and accept the story.
Willum
Jasper Janssen <jas...@janssen.dynip.com> wrote in message
news:mAMWODIosprFVh...@4ax.com...
> tho...@jec322.rcs.rpi.edu (Philip Alan Thomann) wrote:
<snip>
> You forgot the numbers argument - 4 clans of Aiel, meant that ~ 60.000
> (IIRC, don't have a cite at the moment - many tens of thousands, at
> least) warriors came across the Dragonwall. These tens of thousands
> went up against countries where a "pretty large army" would be a few
> hundred men, up to maybe a thousand.
>
> That alone made them essentially unbeatable.
Thanks for the estimate Jasper. And that is exactly right. Tens of
thousands of Aiel, well co-ordinated and unified by thier goal, would have
caught the much smaller and less prepared Randland nations completely
offguard.
Jasper Janssen
>As roses wither, so does Robert McNeil:
>> They're not supermen, they're Fremen...
>
>SAND! SAND! LOOK! SAND! SEE?
Chairs. Tables. Wood. Water. Expensive Water. I have a felling he'd
have let the the Aes Sedai make a few stillsuits if he'd had some free
time around the time he was writing the Rhuidean sequences.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
>marked - and is not as necessary for day to day survival. However, I'm not
>really sure as to how many generations the Aiel have been living in the
>waste, but chances are, it is enough so that it would be reflected
>evolutionarily.
3000 years. Long enough for us to move from building pyramids and
fscking huge temples in the Euphrat delta to now.
Jasper
Willum
But not, I think, long enough for substantial evolutionary changes in the
Aiel. Some genetic traits (size, hair and eye colour etc) may have been
reinforced through successive generations, but a couple of thousand years
is not long enough to explain why Aiel can outrun horses.
Mythman
the Aiel camp with Egwene? I don't think so as then she would get
into Toh issues. Is Egwene as fast as a horse? Maybe in this world,
being as fast as a horse is not much of a statement. Now I think I
understand what makes Bela so great... here is a horse that is as
fast as a (real-world) horse!
Robert McNeil
> Whether or not you think that it's nonsense, they can and they did.
> During the Illian campaign High lord Wieramon ran his horses ahead of
Mythman
Nu Killer Bee
> I am not quite sure, but I think Rand lost to Toram because (1) Toram was
in
> a battle fury, (2) Rand was distracted momentarily by the sudden commotion
> outside, and the tent snapping away.
Rand lost, at least in part, because he refused to remove his jacket and
gloves (Toram commented on the disadvantage this put him at) so as to
not display his dragons.
> We also "saw" Ingtar killed a fade in Fal Dara.
Presumably Thom killed a fade when he was injured.
- Mythman
Robert McNeil
"Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
>
> Robert McNeil <Ledg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7v51k0$ies$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <7v4oe8$sev$1...@news.is.co.za>,
> > "Jon Tullett" <j...@hivemind.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Robert McNeil <Ledg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:7v4cu1$23d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > In article <38141...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au>,
>
> <snip>
> Not in a march. Full time infantry can, obviously, keep up with horses
in a
> march, even a slow trot for a while. My objection was to the idea that
the
> Aiel could _outrun_ horses in a straight line. That is nonsense, and
just
> because this is a fantasy series, readers still have every right to
expect
> realistic limits, unless magic (the OP) is actually involved.
Otherwise it
> becomes hard to suspend one's disbelief and accept the story.
>
> --
Okay, now think about what we're talking about here. Men that top the 6'
mark as a general rule, then apply that we _know_ that they are _all_ in
superior shape, even to a athlete of our age. Put those all together and
you get a runner that may not be able to keep up with a horse at a
gallop, they could easily keep up with a column of horse at a trot,
perhaps even a quick trot.
There, does that help your suspension any?
--
Robert McNeil
"Mythman" <myt...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Robert McNeil
> > Whether or not you think that it's nonsense, they can and they did.
> > During the Illian campaign High lord Wieramon ran his horses ahead
of
> > the foot, but the Aiel kept up. And more than once we've had been
shown
> > what kind of distances they can cover. But it's not just that they
can
> > run as fast as horses, they can cover ground that horses can't.
Don't
> > try and use the "that's impossible!" arguement, as it's a fantasy
book
> > and things that we normally consider impossible are quite
commonplace
> > there.
> Was Aviendha taking it easy when she was running her laps around
> the Aiel camp with Egwene? I don't think so as then she would get
> into Toh issues. Is Egwene as fast as a horse? Maybe in this world,
> being as fast as a horse is not much of a statement. Now I think I
> understand what makes Bela so great... here is a horse that is as
> fast as a (real-world) horse!
Actually, in that situation, she was. No toh because she was told to run
laps, not as fast as she could, just to run them. Additionally, Egwene
was doing it with her and she was close with Egwene, and probably didn't
want to show her up.
A good example of the Aiel keeping up with the horses when Egwene, Nyn,
and Elayne are leaving the Bandit camp after being saved by the Aiel
(kind of) They trot out of there on their horses and the Aiel are
keeping up without a problem. They are even talking to the women while
doning it, they then speed up from the pace that they were going and
leave, going a different way. (When I get home I'll look up the
reference and post where it is if anyone's still interested in this
subject...)
Oh, and by the way, could you reply under the post you respond to, I've
fixed it here already. It just makes it easier to follow if someone's
trying to read along.:)
Robert McNeil
next to Shienar, it's also right next to the blight(or more specificly,
the area of it called the blasted lands.)Okay it's in the north of the
waste, but if the Shienarans are _very_ familliar with the Aiel there
must be at least enough to have skirmishes along the waste.
>
> And the Borderlanders are the ones holding back the Blight.
>
> Trollocs don't come to the waste without very good
> > reason. They don't raid them like they do the borderlands. Why? Ask
> > yourself,
>
> Huh? You are aware, I hope, that the Aiel _vastly_ outnumber the
> Borderlanders guarding the blight, and that the climate of the Waste
is as
> much a killer as the Aiel themselves. I can imagine why the Trollocs
call
> the Waste the "Killing Ground". Because no doubt they would lose many
from
> the extreme heat, lack of water as well as the numerous Aiel, who are
right
> in their element.
Yes, these things are true, but provisioning the troops was never an
issue for armies of the shadow. But add that to that the fact that while
the borderlands have villigaes that have more non-combatants an
Aiel village. Sure, the there are a few that aren't totally ready, but
that is an exceptionally small percentage. Where I get this from(since
you seem to think that I pull these theories out of my ass.) is from
the descriptions of Aiel dwellings and people. Add that to the fact that
their people have lived in the harshest environment known to RL for 3000
years. The weak have passed on, leaving only the strong to survive.
Heck, the even went though a pre-waste culling went they split off from
what would become the Tinkers. They left those that didn't have the same
will to live as they.
> (and no the answer isn't that they don't have anything as
> > that's not why trollocs raid the borderlands)But I agree with your
base
> > statement that _most_ Aiel are not blademaster level, but I would
say
> > that a higher percentage of them are as compared with any other
culture
> > in RL.
>
> See, this I disagree with. Without even going into the military
technology
> of the Aiel (including their lack of armor and lack of armor piecing
> weapons) I have to wonder why so many more Aiel would be _Master
Fighters_
> then say, Borderlanders. Both are very martial, highly honor bound
> cultures who train for war every day.
>
> The Aiel primarily fight each other in the Waste, the Borderlanders
fight
> Shadowspawn in the Blight and the Borderlands. Why do you think fewer
> Borderlanders would be expert fighters? Is fighting Trollocs and
Myrdraal
> so much easier than fighting humans?
Yep,it is. The trollocs, while being physically superior to a human are
not on the same mental level, and do not fight with the same amount of
discipline that humans do. Another point is that the Aiel really don't
train. They live in a constant state of war with the elements, each
other and the beasts that live in the waste. The borderlanders live in
fortified dwellings where they have a kind of safe haven. There is no
place like this in the waste. A roof is for people to congregate, not to
be safe. They don't even have chairs! Sitting in one seems soft to them.
> >
> > > Just as I think Ingtar, Tallanvor, Gawn and others would be quite
> > capable
> > > of holding their own against the Aiel, and I don't consider them
> > > blademasters.
> > >
> > Tallanvor is the only person in this group that you've listed that I
> > _don't_ consider at least blademaster level.
>
> You are far too easy with assigning Blademastership then. Ingtar is
not a
> Blademaster (he is certainly never identified as such in the books
IIRC),
> he is just a good example of a tough, skilled warrior who has been
trained
> since his youth to fight. That is why he is good, and many of the
> Borderlanders would be just as good. They are not Blademasters, but
they
> are seasoned experts who can hold their own against anyone, including
the
> Aiel. Tallanvor too, is no master, but he too is a skilled soldier
fully
> capable of holding his own.
Actually, I really didn't think about Ingtar when I responded to that
point.
???????Woah! What books are you reading? They live in the _WASTE_ that's
enough enemy for most. They battle others as well, and not just during
the Aiel war. The Borderlanders have fought them on a few occasions that
I can glean from the conversations with Lan and other borderlanders. And
they have all had a healthy respect for them.
> Taking into account exceptional examples, Lan,
> > Galad, and a few others, I would say that the _top_ Aiel warriors
would
> > be better than a bladmaster.
>
> Why? Please explain why the best warriors in Randland are inferior to
the
> Aiel? Bearing in mind that they fight in different climates and employ
> different weapons, how can you be so confident of the absolute
superioty of
> the Aiel? I don't buy it, because no one culture has a monopoly on
skilled
> warriors. The Aiel culture is not, IMO, any more martial than say,
Shienar,
But they are, they don't even have servants! None! Menial tasks are
performed by captured warriors. When a culture is formed by nearly all
warriors, you have more competiton amongst the clan. Factor in the fact
that they have been doing this for at least 2000 or so years(I won't
count the first 1000 as they may have been developing the culture at
that time.) What do you get when a culture fights for that long? Well,
they either become extinct or they become stronger. The Borderlanders
don't live in this kind of environment. They have castles and fortified
cities. The Aiel have caves and desert.
There's where you aren't getting it. They aren't many like that
anywhere. There might have been a few, elite groups of men trained that
way but I don't think that that was the standard, it would be too
expensive and time consuming to train all of tham that way. Which brings
me back a point that I had earlier. Aiel don't train as such. They learn
or they don't live. They have games that hone these skills and they
don't play much else. While it may not seem a very realistic culture
that's the way things are for them.
Wrong, you are agian assuming that borderlanders have the same average
physical capabilities that the Aiel do. They do not. In every
description of the Aiel(even the craftsmen) are uniformly hardened by
the element that they live in.
>
> >
> > > The Aiel system of fighting is ONE way to fight. It is not the
ONLY
> > way to
> > > fight, nor is it the BEST way to fight in every situation.
> > >
> > For my money, it's the best way for the greatest amount of
situations.
>
> You have obviously never contemplated or researched the effect of
armor, or
> mounted warriors, and especially of mounted, armored warriors. The
Aiel
> system of fighting is IMHO, very restricted and infact, less effective
in
> many situations.
Oh yes, as a matter of fact I do. I know that when you have a heavily
armed and armoured cavalry one of their most efficient manners to use
them is a charge, which has been proven doesn't work(at least in the
books)
I know what they'd say. Hell no! But they're not Aiel either. I know
that you can't accept it but try. This is a fantasy world in which a
group of people experienced divergent evolution from the rest of the
population. They were placed in an exceptionally harsh climate and
flourished and adapted to the climate. They are not the same as the rest
of the population. I can see that you are very into historical arms
armour and tactics adn that' why I love when you respond to my posts,
but come on, can't you seem to suspend disbelief just enough to let what
you see as an error slide. It's not as if it's so glaring an error
anyway.
Jasper Janssen
>But not, I think, long enough for substantial evolutionary changes in the
>Aiel. Some genetic traits (size, hair and eye colour etc) may have been
If selection and inbreeding is severe enough, sure it is.
>reinforced through successive generations, but a couple of thousand years
>is not long enough to explain why Aiel can outrun horses.
Extreme physical shape, IMHO, and anybody who can't cope dies. They
don't sit in an apartment somewhere on a minimumwage spawning a dozen
children, they die. Slection hasn't been that severe in the civilised
world for centuries, so it's rather hard to get an accurate picture.
Jasper
Adam Benedict Canning
Adam
Jasper Janssen wrote:
>
> tho...@jec322.rcs.rpi.edu (Philip Alan Thomann) wrote:
>
> >If you take a randland-propper nation's fighting men and put them into
> >the field, thats more or less what you're stuck with- a bunch of guys in
> >a battle. Do the same with an Aiel Clan and what you have is a pretty
> >effective battle group divided into combat-effective detachments (septs)
> >and within each detachment are specialized troops who know what they're
> >about and are able to integrate thier efforts with other specialists to
> >form a cohesive whole. (Maidens for scouting, Stone Dogs for rear-gaurd,
> >from what I've read I think the Black Eyes are shock-troops, and an
> >argument between Rhurac and the Maidens suggests that Rhurac's personal
> >society (thunder walkers?) is the recon-in-force element, etc...).
> >
> >Which IMHO gives me a much more satisfactory reason why 4 clans were
> >able to have their way with things rather than each Aiel being some kind
> >of superman.
>
> You forgot the numbers argument - 4 clans of Aiel, meant that ~ 60.000
> (IIRC, don't have a cite at the moment - many tens of thousands, at
> least) warriors came across the Dragonwall. These tens of thousands
> went up against countries where a "pretty large army" would be a few
> hundred men, up to maybe a thousand.
>
> That alone made them essentially unbeatable.
>
> Jasper
Adam Benedict Canning
Mythman wrote:
>
> Was Aviendha taking it easy when she was running her laps around
> the Aiel camp with Egwene?
Yes. After thioer conversation finishes she pulls off ahead.
> I don't think so as then she would get
> into Toh issues.
Why?
Adam
Kay-Arne Hansen
"Adam G. Lenfestey" wrote:
>
> Nu Killer Bee wrote:
>
> > We also "saw" Ingtar killed a fade in Fal Dara.
>
> Ingtar didn't kill the fade in Fal Dara; he told Rand later on that it had lost
> interest and wandered off when Rand left. Then again, since he was a DF he
> probably wouldn't have had to fight it anyway unless people were watching.
>
> That makes for an interesting question; can fades "sense" whether someone is a DF
> or not?
The Darkfriends use secret (hand-, I suppose) signs in-between
themselves, to identify as DF. It would surprise me if the Fades didn't
know about those signs.
---
KAH
Kelly Reed
>
> Presumably Thom killed a fade when he was injured.
>
No, Thom said later that it ran off after Rand and Mat because it
wasn't interested in him.
HTH
Kelly Reed
Arlia...@webtv.net
Note that the idiot who always says "Foot Cannot stand up to horse" is
actually according to History, right. Even an Aiel no matter how skilled
is outmatched by that guy in the Huge Horse, Heavy armor and using his
Lance and getting first swing. as for shooting the Horse, anyone ever
Heard of Barding? ie Horse Armor.
the horse could feasibly get killed with the Aielmans spear, and the
Aiel is STILL squished under the weight of the Horse. I am sorry but I
dont see Aiel standing against (for instance) Shienarian Heavy Cavalry,
unless they could ambush them or Outnumber them 10 to 1 or some such.
Aiel bows dont have the punch to penatrate plate, Aiel spears need to
be longer to work as Pikes, and Aiel lack of armor is GOING to put them
at a Disadvantage against the guy who is nigh unkillable from up on his
horse. I do note Jordan has the typical fantasy problem of no closed
face helms though, because how do you get to see the neat characters
face then? So I guess maybe the Aiel could shoot for the face, but
still.....
ah well..I better stop Ranting.
Eric Allen Betz.
__
Off topic note: gimme Knights in Armor any day to lead, but if I am Role
Playing, I will play an Aiel. neater Culture :)
Willum
samuel toma <sam...@student.umass.edu> wrote in message
news:3816...@oit.umass.edu...
> no offense, but if you asked someone who knows what they are >talking
about.
I do. I have reseached European and Japanese history and military
technology for a number of years.
> they will tell you that the downfall of the armored knights in western
> europe was due to the wide spread use of the armor piercing bow and arrow
No, no and no. That is only half the story. The crossbow had been in wide
spread use since the 11th century, and the longbow since the 13th century,
and yet plate armor combat reached it's peak in the 15th century and was
only finally eclipsed in the 16th century.
Black powder (and to a lesser extent the extreme cost of armor and the wide
spread use of common pike armies on the continent) was the death of full
suit armor, not arrows and bolts, although they did help level the playing
field. Longbows, crossbows and armored knights co-existed on medieval
battlefields for centuries.
as
> a weapon. the longbows of england easily pierced much of the armor
prevalent
> in the middle ages, decreasing the value of the mounted armored knight to
> the point where it would be a hindrance to be wearing the heavy
cumbersome
> armor.
*sigh* No, it meant that armored knights had to develop and employ
different tactics. Such as fighting on foot, which despite some
misconceptions, was always a legitmate and at times very effective tactic.
> perhaps the short bows of the aiel are not as strong as the longbow
> was, but the skill employed by the aiel makes up for this. all they have
to
> do is to shoot the horse to force the heavily armored man to fight on
foot,
> severely disadvantaging him against the light of foot aiel.
Fighting in plate, on foot, is not so very cumbersome or slow. It restricts
some movements, but I can assure you that a fit man can run, jump, roll and
fight very well in plate armor. And plate is a great defensive advantage.
It can be very difficult to kill a warrior in plate armor if you don't have
the weapons for it.
The Aiel, on the other hand, wears no armor (not boiled leather, not chain,
not scale, not plate) and fights with short range stabbing spears which,
employed in one hand, would be challenged by the highly effective defensive
value of armor, particularly plate. This makes sense in the Waste, where
the extreme climate demands that the Aiel travel and fight light. But in
the colder climates of Randland, armor makes a great deal of sense. Are you
going to try to convince me otherwise? Please back it up with historical
precedents.
look at their
> weapons. the wetlanders use weapons designed for use against similarly
armed
> and trained forces, the aiel have unconventional methods that the
wetlanders
> cant counter. ...
Huh? A pike or lance through the chest, an arrow through the gut, an axe to
the head, a sword cut to the throat can't counter an Aiel with a stabbing
spear? Rubbish. Take a look at real military cultures throughout history,
and you will see both the importance of armor and the style of weapons
employed.
Willum
<snip>
> Where I get this from(since
> you seem to think that I pull these theories out of my ass.)
No, You're the only one who has talked about people pulling theories out
their backsides.
<snip>
> > Is fighting Trollocs and
> Myrdraal
> > so much easier than fighting humans?
>
> Yep,it is. The trollocs, while being physically superior to a human are
> not on the same mental level, and do not fight with the same amount of
> discipline that humans do.
That would, I should think, depend on the Fade controlling them. And even
so, discipline or no, the Trollocs (and Fades especially) should be among
the toughest and most dangerous things walking Randland. It is to the
story's detriment that RJ has allowed people, including women with kitchen
knives, to deal with trollocs so easily. They should be much harder to
kill, IMO.
Another point is that the Aiel really don't
> train. They live in a constant state of war with the elements, each
> other and the beasts that live in the waste. The borderlanders live in
> fortified dwellings where they have a kind of safe haven.
You are aware, I am sure, of the concept of training. The Borderlanders
undoubtedly train for war every day. That means conditioning, drill, and
practice with their weapons (ie. typical martial art practice). Then there
is the practical experience they gain by fighting to hold the Blight back.
I have gained the impression from reading the books, that they are not
holding back the Blight passively (as you are suggesting) but actively give
battle to Shadowspawn. Forays and campaigns are are common place, and the
average Borderland warrior would soon amass a great deal of experience in
battle in the Borderlands.
<Borderland warriors>
> > Neccessity, and their very survival demands that they must be martial
> > cultures who prize military prowess. How could it be otherwise? If
> they
> > don't prize matial prowess, how long do you think their society will
> last?
> > The Aiel, on the other hand, could all have converted to the way of
> the
> > leaf (before Rand came) and been none the worse off. Apart from
> eachother,
> > they are not faced with an unrelenting enemy, as the Borderlanders
> are.
>
> ???????Woah! What books are you reading? They live in the _WASTE_ that's
> enough enemy for most.
Please stop equating living in a hot, harsh environemt with military
prowess in battle. Being able to survive in a desert, find water and travel
long distances are excellent survival skills to be sure, but this does not
directly translate into being the best warrior around. Many of the hardiest
and most resourceful native populations of places like Africa and the
Middle East, survive in similar locations to the Aiel, but many are quite
peaceful and unwarlike communities.
Likewise, much of medieval Europe was cold, fertile and wet, but fuedal
Europe was ruled by a highly skilled warrior class (warlords, kings,
princes, knights) for centuries.
They battle others as well, and not just during
> the Aiel war. The Borderlanders have fought them on a few occasions that
> I can glean from the conversations with Lan and other borderlanders. And
> they have all had a healthy respect for them.
And, IIRC, the Aiel have a healthy respect for Borderlanders as well. As is
to be expected when two highly skilled warrior cultures have fought each
other. I did not get the impression that the Aiel consider themselves
superior warriors to the Borderlanders, but actually respect their fighting
ability.
<snip>
> > The Aiel culture is not, IMO, any more martial than say,
> Shienar,
>
> But they are, they don't even have servants! None! Menial tasks are
> performed by captured warriors.
Explain how this relates directly to fighting prowess. No one has said the
Aiel are not hardy people. But as you point out, the Aiel do have servants,
they just call them by a different name. And the fact that they are
captured prisoners? So were many of the slaves sold during the middle ages,
all througout the Mediterranian. This has zero to do with the subject of
the Aiel as a warrior.
When a culture is formed by nearly all
> warriors,
IIRC, they are not all warriors. Many are artisans, blacksmiths, mothers,
builders, etc.
you have more competiton amongst the clan. Factor in the fact
> that they have been doing this for at least 2000 or so years(I won't
> count the first 1000 as they may have been developing the culture at
> that time.) What do you get when a culture fights for that long?
What you get is a very insular culture, not used to fighting outside
forces. They Aiel way of war is very ritualistic (so and so may not fight
so and so, so and so may not kill so and so) and has developed in a bit of
a vacuum. Apart from limited fighting against Randland forces (ie
Borderlanders, the Aiel war) the need to combat outside warriors has not
been a great influence on their weapons or tactics.
Well,
> they either become extinct or they become stronger. The Borderlanders
> don't live in this kind of environment. They have castles and fortified
> cities. The Aiel have caves and desert.
This is ridiculous. The Borderlanders have castles because they are
routinely raided by Shadowspawn from the Blight. The Aiel, particularly
those living in the southern half of the Waste, have no such fear from
Shadowspawn. What they have is raids, conducted by strict rules and
provisions (ji'e'toh) in what is a very ritualistic form of fighting.
I also suspect that the resources present in the Waste have a large effect
on the way Aiel dwellings are constructed. And, if the Aiel were to move
into Randland proper, up to the Borderlands and start participating in the
struggle to hold back the Blight, I think they would soon start emulating
the Borderlanders by building strong fortifications. To do otherwise is
stupid, poor strategy and very unmartial in attitiude.
<snip>
> > A professional infantryman will be trained with crossbow, pike,
> polearm,
> > sword, maybe great-sword/two-handed sword, dagger and wresling,
> striking
> > and disarming techniques, if the Randlanders follow similar traing
> > practices to the professional armies of Western Europe.
>
> There's where you aren't getting it. They aren't many like that
> anywhere. There might have been a few, elite groups of men trained that
> way but I don't think that that was the standard,
Are you referring to Randland or Europe. Because I can assure you that
professional troops of the time (and I'm talking about full time soldiers
here, not peasant levies which actually were a small minority in most
medieval armies) did train in these disciplines. They knew how to fight,
grapple and manipulate a variety of weapons, even if they favoured one in
particular. I see no reason why Borderland infantry (although, strangely,
they are hardly mentioned) would be different.
<snip>
> > No different to having a whole troop of say, Sheinarins who are
> superior to
> > the average.
>
> Wrong, you are agian assuming that borderlanders have the same average
> physical capabilities that the Aiel do. They do not. In every
> description of the Aiel(even the craftsmen) are uniformly hardened by
> the element that they live in.
Being hardy, being tall or being fit does not make you an expert warrior,
any more than a marathon runner or a champion swimmer would be an expert
warrior. You still have to train and fight to develop real martial ability.
Someone who is instead a craftsman might have a little basic training, but
I doubt he has the time to become a good craftsman and an expert warrior.
Both are full time occupations.
<snip>
> > You have obviously never contemplated or researched the effect of
> armor, or
> > mounted warriors, and especially of mounted, armored warriors. The
> Aiel
> > system of fighting is IMHO, very restricted and infact, less effective
> in
> > many situations.
>
> Oh yes, as a matter of fact I do. I know that when you have a heavily
> armed and armoured cavalry one of their most efficient manners to use
> them is a charge, which has been proven doesn't work(at least in the
> books)
Aside from the books and heavy cavalry, heavy infantry (chain and plate
armored foot) are also very effective fighters. The Swiss and German
mercenaries, who fought on foot with pikes and two-handed swords against
cavalry, still employed armor when they could (including chain mail and
later a suit called three quarter plate, a very effective defense which
offered excellent mobility with much of the defensive coverage of full
plate).
<snip>
> > ask any
> student
> > of miliatry history or skilled, long term practioner of European or
> Asian
> > martial arts whether or not, if they had to go into a battle against
> > heavily armed and armored opponents, they would wear no armor and see
> their
> > reaction.
>
> I know what they'd say. Hell no! But they're not Aiel either. I know
> that you can't accept it but try. This is a fantasy world in which a
> group of people experienced divergent evolution from the rest of the
> population.
3000 years is not long enough to see such divergent evolution, IMO. Some
adaption and the eradication of some genetic traits yes, but not evolution
on the scale you are talking about.
<snip to end>
Robert McNeil
"Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
>
> Robert McNeil <Ledg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7v7d6b$8j3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <38164...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au>,
> > "Willum" <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
> > > ask any
> > student
> > > of miliatry history or skilled, long term practioner of European
or
> > Asian
> > > martial arts whether or not, if they had to go into a battle
against
> > > heavily armed and armored opponents, they would wear no armor and
see
> > their
> > > reaction.
> >
> > I know what they'd say. Hell no! But they're not Aiel either. I know
> > that you can't accept it but try. This is a fantasy world in which a
> > group of people experienced divergent evolution from the rest of the
> > population.
>
> 3000 years is not long enough to see such divergent evolution, IMO.
Some
> adaption and the eradication of some genetic traits yes, but not
evolution
> on the scale you are talking about.
>
> <snip to end>
>
Okay, I've snipped everthing else because when it comes down to it, this
this is the point that is truly being argued. Whether it's evolution of
people or military tactics, that's what's making the difference. I'm
going to give you the example that both the Fremen and the Aiel are
based on. The Apache. I'm sure you're familliar with them. What they did
is say "Wow, what if we had a whole culture that was similar to the
apache and left them that way for millennia? How would they turn out?"
Now, what we have are warlike tribes out in the open with no cover. They
become hardened by their environment and after a time of adjustment
begin fighting amongst themselves. Now argue as you might, you have to
admit that physical conditioning and aptitude play a large part in
martial training, right? Well, century after century they fight
themselves devolping a rules system to keep their culture from
collapsing, not for ritual's sake. When you have a society that is
comprised mostly of warriors this is important. An important part of the
Aiel culture is the fact that they don't have servants. They don't just
call them something different, they're warriors that for a year must
waer white and bear no weapons. They're still warriors. The games that
they play the way that their society is structured is comprehensively
martial. Even the craftsman are familliar with weapons and while they
are not warriors, from thier descriptions, they're not your average
craftsperson either. No historical culture that I have ever heard of
was so totally martial.( If you have cite it and the source you got it
from, I'd like to read about them, it's kind of a hobby of mine.{please,
please, pretty please}) Now this has been their way for a long time and
when you have this kind of culture, the bar will be pushed up. Warriors
competing against warriors for thousands of years. Limited resources
make it even more fiercely competitive. Take all these ingredients and
mix well for a couple of thousand years and what do you get? Evolution.
We have it in our culture already. Look at the atheletes of our age.
Bigger, stronger, and faster than those of just 50 or 60 years ago. And
the only eveolutionary impetus they have is money. Training methods,
cultural biases, so on and so forth. These are all tools of evolution.
After just a thousand years I could imagine that they might have evolved
far enough that this process might slow, but competition for survival is
a powerful motavating force. That's my argument. As far as armor and
equipment sure, the borderlanders have the edge, but that's also where
they lose it. When you don't have the resources to make proper
fortifications what happens? You either leave and find a place that has
those resources, or you find a way to overcome the disadvantage of
having not having them. Instead of having fortresses, they live in a
constant state of readiness.
I don't want you to get me wrong Willum, I don't think that the
Borderlanders are inferior warriors. I know that the bulk of randland
considers them the finest heavy cavalry that there is(or at least those
in the know at least.) The Shienarans in specific. And if I personally
had to chose one or the other to be, it would be a Shienaran. But that
just because they practice all the time and they fight trollocs all the
time their culture is different than the Aiel. The Aiel culture is
designed to produce more warriors. They have no music save dirges and no
art save smithing. The Aiel are a true warrior culture with all the
parts that don't pertain to war pared away until all you have is a
spear, the spear of the dragon....
Jasper Janssen
>Check the Guide. The Aiel sent to kill Laman are outnumbered.
When the guide disagrees with me, I don't accept the Guide as canon. I
mean, fuck, I don't even accept it as canon when it does agree with
me..
Jasper
Kelly Reed
that of the Samurai or, more appropriately in some cases, the Ninja.
Of course there are parallels to Native Americans and African
tribesmen and others, but that's not my point here. It seems to me
that the Aiel have the battleground skills of the Samurai and the
assassination skills of the Ninja. So they don't use swords, big deal.
They also live by J'E'T, which is similar to the Samurai Code of
Honor. But with the Aiel, it's not just a few select warriors who are
_that good_, it's almost everybody, due to the feudal/feuding society
in which they live. And then there are several select warriors like
Rhuarc and Gaul who are _even better_. In order to kill Aiel, the
average army/group must horribly outnumber them (like the two Hunters
and their followers, who trapped Gaul and killed his companion.) I
think the Borderlanders, on the average, are close to equal with the
Aiel because they, too, have grown up in a constant state of war and
combat-readiness. But nobody else comes close (discounting individual
exceptions, natch.) And it doesn't matter what weapons the average
Randlander has to use against the Aiel. Unless you surprise them
(yeah, right,) the RLer isn't going to be able to connect. Charge at
an Aiel with a horse, and s/he'll jump out of the way and shoot you in
the back with an arrow. Attack with any normal melee weapon, and
s/he'll dodge, move in, and stab you. Remember that description: "If
you have a sword, and the Aiel is unarmed, it's even." That is just
how good the average Aiel is. The key is that they practice several
areas of martial arts, with weapons and without, and they're all darn
good. It's kinda like Bruce Lee and Sho Kosugi melded and cloned. So
it's not utterly realistic. If we wanted realism, we'd read history
books.
Thank you and good night,
Kelly Reed
--
I believe my feelings can best be expressed by reciting a portion of
dialogue from one of the most touching movies of all time: "You don't
frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottom, son of a silly
person! I blow my nose at you, so-called 'Arthur King'! You and all
your silly English Knnnnnnnnigits!"
Robert McNeil
They just aren't as known for it. As a matter of fact, the image of the
hunter and woodsman have almost eclipsed the fact that they had many
great warriors. My people, the Chippewa, weren't really known for it(nor
any of the northeastern tribes.) But in the south tribes like the
seminoles and in the west the apache were once greatly feared.But I'm
sure that the Aiel were modeled after the apache, or at least they were
modeled after the fremen, and _they_ were modeled after the apache. It
as much says so in Dune...
JJVORS
>Actually the Native Americans had codes of honor at least as strict.
>They just aren't as known for it. As a matter of fact, the image of the
>hunter and woodsman have almost eclipsed the fact that they had many
>great warriors. My people, the Chippewa, weren't really known for it(nor
>any of the northeastern tribes.) But in the south tribes like the
>seminoles and in the west the apache were once greatly feared.But I'm
>sure that the Aiel were modeled after the apache, or at least they were
>modeled after the fremen, and _they_ were modeled after the apache. It
>as much says so in Dune...
I believe RJ said in an interview the Aiel were modeled after the Zulu and the
Cheyenne. The Cheyenne were
peaceful people until they were pushed out of their dwellings in the
southeastern U.S. (I think) migrated to the west and became warlike.
I'm enjoying this thread. Perhaps some reconciliation can be achieved if we
can agree on these statements:
1. The Aiel don't have an exact counterpart in our world. They are numerous
and have discipline
and tactics like the the Zulu, skilled at camouflage like the Native Americans,
have endurance like the
Bushman or Masai (who run down zebras, no fooling), and have martial art skills
like samurai and ninja.
2. The Borderlanders which represent our world's best heavy cavalry are equal
with the Aiel, based upon the books.
3. The rest of Randland armies seem inferior to the borderlanders. Perhaps the
best of the Cairheinen cavalry may be close to the Saldaen light cavalry. The
best infantry seem to be the
Cairhein pike and the Andoran foot. As Willum noted, foot is unemphasized in
the books, and
generally disparaged by Randland culture.
Comparisons with middle European foot is difficult because Randland doesn't
seem to have the same
emphasis on armor and foot soldiers. I too, like
Willum, would like to see the Aiel battle an equal
force of mixed heavy cavalry and armored soldiers
in the following terrain:
1. forest
2. grassland
3. mountains
We will assume they will win in the desert.
I will give them the nod also in forest, for their ease
of surprise. I really can't see how they can win in
the grassland, and the books back this up. Note
that COS shows Gawynn and the Younglings holding their own against Aiel, and I
don't consider them
the best of the best.
Jeff Smith
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only
begotton Son, that whosoever believes in Him should
not perish, but have everlasting life."
Robert McNeil
Actually, this was the point that I was trying to make to Willum, that
we have had cultures that posess some of the same attributes of the
Aiel. It is _Plausible_ that the Aiel could be as good as the books say
they are. Myself, without the say-so of the author wouldn't think that
the Aiel would do very well against a mixed force of armed, trained and
armoured troops. But, on more than one occasion, the Aiel stomp the
oppositon.
> 2. The Borderlanders which represent our world's best heavy cavalry
are equal
> with the Aiel, based upon the books.
One on one fighting, I'd have to say no. But on the field, led by men
like Aglemar Jagad or Davram Bashere I'd say yes. Armies in RL don't
seem to win by superior weapons,(unless it's the OP)they win by superior
tactics. And the borderlands seem to have a bumper crop of fine
generals.
Actually if I were to say whom the best mercenary or wild card group
there is I'd say it's the younglings. They were all on their way to
being warders, and those that fought during the breaking of the tower
fought against warders, so they are a respectable force. The grassland
though, would be just as bad as the desert perhaps worse. Grasslands
afford much greater chance for cover than open desert. In fact, one of
the Aiel mentioned it, it was either Aviendha or Bael.
All in all though, I don't think that any of us are very far away in
opinion, that's way I had snipped all the small stuff out to try and get
down to the real point.
Alinet2
>They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still constrained by
>the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
>outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
>
Jesse Owens, the 1936 Olympic champion runner, ran down a man on horseback in
an exhibition. True fact. Men can't run as fast, but they can run longer.
Steven M. Ginter
Parkinson) spake thus:
>ali...@aol.com (Alinet2) pondered for a while, then blurted out:
>
>>Jesse Owens, the 1936 Olympic champion runner, ran down a man on horseback in
>>an exhibition. True fact. Men can't run as fast, but they can run longer.
>
>could go long... oh.. wait. RUNNING. Oh, sorry. My bad. :)
ObOtherThread: Are you *sure* you aren't bitter about something here?
--
Steve G.
Wandering Gaidin
"One shouldn't use sex as a weapon if one isn't
comfortable with the thought of losing that weapon
to one's opponent."
-Maggie, rasfwr-j
Laura M. Parkinson
>Jesse Owens, the 1936 Olympic champion runner, ran down a man on horseback in
>an exhibition. True fact. Men can't run as fast, but they can run longer.
Huh.. funny, I always thought it was men that went fast and women that
could go long... oh.. wait. RUNNING. Oh, sorry. My bad. :)
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
Jasper Janssen
>Huh.. funny, I always thought it was men that went fast and women that
>could go long... oh.. wait. RUNNING. Oh, sorry. My bad. :)
Men go Fast and Explode, and women are Economical with Fuel?
Jasper
Willum
Kelly Reed <kel...@pacificpress.com> wrote in message
news:381863D9...@pacificpress.com...
> I haven't yet seen anyone compare the fighting style of the Aiel to
> that of the Samurai
The koryu or old/traditional systems of bujutsu don't overly resemble
anything the Aiel do, to my mind. Infact, the Samurai of fuedal Japan has
much more in common with a European knight than a typical Aiel. That is, he
was a privledged, professional, armored, and often mounted warrior sworn to
the service of his lord in return for land/remuneration. The Aiel, apart
from having their own style of martial art, are something different
alltogether.
or, more appropriately in some cases, the Ninja.
> Of course there are parallels to Native Americans and African
> tribesmen and others, but that's not my point here. It seems to me
> that the Aiel have the battleground skills of the Samurai
The knights, men at arms and mercenaries of fuedal Europe also had highly
developed systems of combat, armed and unarmed, mounted and on foot. This
is not surprising, considering the fact that between the fall of the
Western Roman Empire and the rise of humanism in the Renaissance, Europe
was governed by a warrior elite, military rulers who gained, maintained and
lost power by the sword. In this, they have much in common with the
military elite of Japan. The Aiel don't easily fit into this category.
and the
> assassination skills of the Ninja. So they don't use swords, big deal.
You have missd the point entirely if you think this has anything to do with
swords. It has to do with common sense, historical precendent and the
reality of human limitations.
> They also live by J'E'T, which is similar to the Samurai Code of
> Honor.
I don't really see many parrallels between Bushido and ji'e'toh, nor many
similarities between Chivalry and ji'e'toh. Much stronger are the
similarities between Chivalry and Bushido, further alienating the Aiel from
the professional warrior classes of Europe and Japan.
But with the Aiel, it's not just a few select warriors who are
> _that good_, it's almost everybody, due to the feudal/feuding society
> in which they live.
And my point is that if you look at the histories of medieval Europe and
pre-Tokugawa Japan, you will also see fuedal societies which were often in
near constant states of warfare. Their elite warriors developed in
interesting and parrallel ways. The use of various weapons and the use of
armor among them. But every warrior was not an expert, despite the fact
that he may have to fight in war at any time.
The Aiel however persist with limited weapons and no armor. This makes
sense in the Waste, but I don't believe their advantages translate as well
into the colder, wetter climate of Randland, where their opponenets will be
armored and will employ weaponry which is in many cases superior for the
conditions.
And then there are several select warriors like
> Rhuarc and Gaul who are _even better_. In order to kill Aiel, the
> average army/group must horribly outnumber them (like the two Hunters
> and their followers, who trapped Gaul and killed his companion.)
Ambush, and guerilla like strikes are the Aiel's strength IMO, and not
neccessarily open battle (where superior weapons and armor do make a
difference). This would suit the strengths of the Aiel (ability to move
quickly and quietly, hide and capture an enemy by surprise). But open
battle is a different animal, and reqiures different skills and equipment.
> And it doesn't matter what weapons the average
> Randlander has to use against the Aiel. Unless you surprise them
> (yeah, right,) the RLer isn't going to be able to connect.
I have yet to see anyone who is impossible to hit, particularly in the heat
of melee. I don't care how good you are, anyone can be hit in a melee.
Anyone.
Charge at
> an Aiel with a horse, and s/he'll jump out of the way and shoot you in
> the back with an arrow.
If you haven't driven a lance right through his/her chest, or barged them
over with a charging destrier, or cut them down with a sword.
> Attack with any normal melee weapon, and
> s/he'll dodge, move in, and stab you.
Oh, and a normal warrior, who also practices with his weapons every day,
and who therefore practices both how to disarm and avoid being disarmed,
and who also practices strikes, kicks, wrestling and grappling, and who
himself practices evasion (voiding) cannot counter the Aiel?
Remember that description: "If
> you have a sword, and the Aiel is unarmed, it's even." That is just
> how good the average Aiel is. The key is that they practice several
> areas of martial arts, with weapons and without,
As did Samurai, as did European knights and men at arms, as did many
historical warriors througout history (I shouldn't need to remind you that
wrestling and pancratium (sp?) originated on the battlefields of the
ancient world and were practiced side by side, indeed, intergrated with
weapon skills).
and they're all darn
> good. It's kinda like Bruce Lee and Sho Kosugi melded and cloned. So
> it's not utterly realistic. If we wanted realism, we'd read history
> books.
There is a difference between reading an imaginative but well researched
fantasy book, and reading an unreasearched POS in which it is clear the
author hasn't the faintest idea what he/she is talking about. When I read
fantasy, I want the everday people to behave in realistic ways and within
realistic human limits, unless the influence of some fantasy element is at
work, such as magic. If you are going to throw out all the rules and make
everything up as you go along, your fantasy world is not going to feel
right, and you're going to end up with inconsistancies which detract from
the readers suspension of disbelief.
RJ has based many of his cultures and socities on historic ones. That being
the case, I like to see consistancy in their portrayal.
Willum
JJVORS <jjv...@aol.comCHARN> wrote in message
news:19991028192608...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
> >From: Robert McNeil Ledg...@yahoo.com
<Aiel, Aiel, Aiel!>
> 1. The Aiel don't have an exact counterpart in our world. They are
numerous
> and have discipline
> and tactics like the the Zulu, skilled at camouflage like the Native
Americans,
> have endurance like the
> Bushman or Masai (who run down zebras, no fooling), and have martial art
skills
> like samurai and ninja.
This I agree with. It makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the
assumption that the Aiel tactics, weapons and lack of armor are effective
in various/all terrains against various/all opponents.
> 2. The Borderlanders which represent our world's best heavy cavalry are
equal
> with the Aiel, based upon the books.
I compare the Borderlanders with the permanent knights (Templars,
Hospitallers, Teutonic) of Outremer. That is, hardened, highly skilled
warriors who must fight and defeat a numerically superior force on a
regualr basis in order to hold their position.
> 3. The rest of Randland armies seem inferior to the borderlanders.
Perhaps the
> best of the Cairheinen cavalry may be close to the Saldaen light cavalry.
The
> best infantry seem to be the
> Cairhein pike and the Andoran foot. As Willum noted, foot is
unemphasized in
> the books, and
> generally disparaged by Randland culture.
Which is strange, considering how effective foot can be, particularly
skilled companies of pikemen and crossbowmen, not to mention knights and
men at arms who fight on foot in plate armor.
>
> Comparisons with middle European foot is difficult because Randland
doesn't
> seem to have the same
> emphasis on armor and foot soldiers. I too, like
> Willum, would like to see the Aiel battle an equal
> force of mixed heavy cavalry and armored soldiers
> in the following terrain:
>
> 1. forest
The Aiel may have the advantage of surprise, but their lack of armor (an
advantage in hiding and moving stealthily) would soon become a disadvantage
if the fight entered melee. Here too, the foot would come into their own,
as mounted troops may lack the room to manueovre and charge. The ability of
the leaders would also be important. Can the commander of the ambushed
party gain control of and organise his troops amid the confusion? Can the
leader of the ambushers control his Aiel and direct them effectively?
> 2. grassland
Assuming equal numbers, and a pitched battle, I think it would be close.
Depending on the skill of the Randlanders (are they experienced warriors or
raw recruits?) and the quality and quantity of their arms and armors, I
think an experienced, well armed and armored force of foot, cavalry and
archers would be a match for the Aiel. Much again would come down to the
leadership and tactics.
> 3. mountains
As well as previous points, this would depend on the type of mountains and
their coverage. Grass, forest, snow, sand, rock. All this could make alot
of difference. The Aiel are in their element in dry/rocky/sandy climates,
but they might fing trudging through snow and rivers (remember their fear
of large bodies of water) too much.
>
> We will assume they will win in the desert.
> I will give them the nod also in forest, for their ease
> of surprise. I really can't see how they can win in
> the grassland, and the books back this up. Note
> that COS shows Gawynn and the Younglings holding their own against Aiel,
and I
> don't consider them
> the best of the best.
Far from it. I think the younglings had the advantage of excellent teaching
(from the Warders), but they lack experience. If they can hold their own
against the Aiel in open combat, I think the more experienced armies around
Randland could do the same if not better.
Mickey Harnden
charge a solid object, such as a solid mass of men.
Mickey
Willum <wjc...@corplink.com.au> wrote in message
news:38178...@newsin2.apacinternet.com.au...
> It can be very difficult to kill a warrior in plate armor if you don't
have
> the weapons for it.
>
> The Aiel, on the other hand, wears no armor (not boiled leather, not
chain,
> not scale, not plate) and fights with short range stabbing spears which,
> employed in one hand, would be challenged by the highly effective
defensive
> value of armor, particularly plate. This makes sense in the Waste, where
> the extreme climate demands that the Aiel travel and fight light. But in
> the colder climates of Randland, armor makes a great deal of sense. Are
you
> going to try to convince me otherwise? Please back it up with historical
> precedents.
>
> look at their
> > weapons. the wetlanders use weapons designed for use against similarly
> armed
> > and trained forces, the aiel have unconventional methods that the
> wetlanders
> > cant counter. ...
>
> Huh? A pike or lance through the chest, an arrow through the gut, an axe
to
> the head, a sword cut to the throat can't counter an Aiel with a stabbing
> spear? Rubbish. Take a look at real military cultures throughout history,
> and you will see both the importance of armor and the style of weapons
> employed.
>
Stickerboy
Jasper Janssen <jas...@janssen.dynip.com> wrote in message
news:ZzkbOIBMh8jWGN...@4ax.com...
So, what are you implying?
Men are weapons, women are power plants?
Male = unharnessed, uncontrollable energy, and female = controlled,
harnessed reaction?
Men are good for the first use only, but women are reusable?
Jason Lee
jc...@ou.edu
Selina
>>From: "Willum" wjc...@corplink.com.au
>
>>They might be very fit and fast runners, but they are still constrained by
>>the limits of human endurance. This business of them outrunning,
>>outmatching or outlasting horses is utter nonsense.
>>
>
>Jesse Owens, the 1936 Olympic champion runner, ran down a man on horseback in
>an exhibition. True fact. Men can't run as fast, but they can run longer.
A man has the advantage over a horse over short distances, because he
has half as many legs to sort out. (0pts for author, 2pts if you can
remember which book it's in, 5pts if you bother to look and find out.)
--
I wish the real world
would just stop hassling me.
Robert McNeil
Didn't have to look it up as Rincewind and Cohen are fav's of mine...
(why is it that the only ones I can get are too easy to deserve points?)
Justin Bacon
Arlia...@webtv.net writes:
>Note that the idiot who always says "Foot Cannot stand up to horse" is
>actually according to History, right.
Not really. It's like saying "a fighter plane is faster than a helicopter";
technically correct, but the underlying sentiment of "therefore I don't need
any helicopters" (or, in this case, "I don't need any foot soliders") is
baloney. The best military force is a *balanced* military force.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
John C. Mann
Think of it this way:
The Salidar Aes Sedai, led by Egwene, bring 30,000 soldiers to the
Border of Andor. They recruited only from the surrounding area
(Amadacia and Murandy iirc) and built an army of significant size.
Gareth Bryne tells Egwene that they not only should not confront the
Andorian amry on their terms, but should backtrack two days to a more
defensive position. Egwene brings and honor guard of 1000 soldiers
with her to the meeting with the Lords and Ladies of Andor and
Murnady. They also bring and honor guard of about 1000 soldiers.
Bryne's comments to Egwene plus the honor guard suggest that their army
is of somewhat equal size. Remember, these are Lords of major houses,
but not the Queen of Andor or the King of Murandy.
Also, the White Tower is increasing the Tower Guard to 50,000 in
preparation for the assault by the Salidar Aes Sedai.
So 60,000 Aiel would be comparable to maybe 1 large nation's standing
Army. Not even close to the total number of men enlisted in the
combined armies of Randland.
John Mann
John C. Mann
Robert McNeil <Ledg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <19991028192608...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
> jjv...@aol.comCHARN (JJVORS) wrote:
> > >From: Robert McNeil Ledg...@yahoo.com
> >Note that COS shows Gawynn and the Younglings holding
> >their own against Aiel, and I don't consider them
> > the best of the best.
> Actually if I were to say whom the best mercenary or wild card group
> there is I'd say it's the younglings. They were all on their way to
> being warders, and those that fought during the breaking of the tower
> fought against warders, so they are a respectable force. The grassland
> though, would be just as bad as the desert perhaps worse. Grasslands
> afford much greater chance for cover than open desert. In fact, one of
> the Aiel mentioned it, it was either Aviendha or Bael.
Speaking of The Younglings, they seem to be set up as the perfect
personal protection for Egwene during the Last Battle. Think about
it. Every major character has someone to protect him/her. Rand has
the Aiel and the Asha'man. Mat has The Band of the Red Hand and
possibly the Seanchan. Perrin has the Two Rivers Long Bows and
possibly the people sworn to Massema as well if things go as I think in
the next book. Elayne will have the Andorians and the Cairehien
armies. She also has Birgette. Nynaeve has Lan. Avhienda has the
Wise Ones.
Each major character is being associated with a different group aside
from being on the "good" side with Rand. Seems as if Jordan is setting
up who will be in charge of who during the Last Battle. The exception
being Nynaeve who will most likely be near Rand to use the sa'angreal.
Egwene will not be able to both direct the Aes Sedai watch for someone
who might stick a knife in her back. That's what Warders are for, and
whatever following he might have gathered under his banner. What is
left to decide is who will be leading the Sea Folk and the Kin.
John Mann
--
"Okay, let me explain...no there is too much.
Let me sum up." I. M. The Princess Bride
Adam Benedict Canning
Foot cannot stand up to Horse.
Hmm
I don't remember the French winning at Agincourt or Crecy.
Or the Takeda at Nagashino.
Or the Cossacks at the Thin Red Line.
Or the light brigade later that day at the Valley of Death.
[Or at least not unless they Have Robert E. Lee leading them.]
Adam
"They Can't hit an Elephant at this dist..."
Arlia...@webtv.net
counting guns, which Randland does not have and Takeda charged against,
Not counting Longbows, Because only 2 rivers podunks use them(and the
English), or Pikemen, because I assumed ANY Idiot with minor knowledge
of History knew Pikes were for stopping Horse. The major armies of
Randland are all Axeman, Swordsman, Shortbowmen, with Pikes in there
too... and some crossbows (which yes do kill Horse, but the fire rate
sucks so I am 1/s ignoring them)
and therefore are VERY Vulnerable to Heavy Cavalry, which was in essence
the core of every European (sp?) army worth spit at Randlands tech
level. Aiel would die fighting guys in Full Plate and Lances and
Heavy Warhorses with heavy Barding, because piddly little spears and
Shortbows do not get through the armor, even with the Aiels good aim,
the armor will still stop most of the shots. Though I notice Randland
does not seem to like Full Plate armor much, so maybe it is a moot
point.
Ah well. As you all pointed out Infantry are necessary, and they are,
and their were things that could defeat Cavalry, yes...but it was a fact
that Heavy Cavalry was the most useful unit on Randland style
battlefields. You know, Ones with No guns, Longbows, or suchlike.
Have a Nice day.
Eric
Justin Bacon
writes:
>Also, the White Tower is increasing the Tower Guard to 50,000 in
>preparation for the assault by the Salidar Aes Sedai.
>
>So 60,000 Aiel would be comparable to maybe 1 large nation's standing
>Army. Not even close to the total number of men enlisted in the
>combined armies of Randland.
Ummm.... you have yet to show a *standing* army of that size -- only active
armies. And considering how many times its been commented on that armies of
this size are previously *unheard* of on this side of the Dragonwall, I think
you need to reconsider.
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
John C. Mann
tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
> In article <80c6bm$2b1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, John C. Mann <rogosh@my-
deja.com>
> writes:
>
> >Also, the White Tower is increasing the Tower Guard to 50,000 in
> >preparation for the assault by the Salidar Aes Sedai.
> >
> >So 60,000 Aiel would be comparable to maybe 1 large nation's standing
> >Army. Not even close to the total number of men enlisted in the
> >combined armies of Randland.
>
> Ummm.... you have yet to show a *standing* army of that size -- only
active
> armies. And considering how many times its been commented on that
armies of
> this size are previously *unheard* of on this side of the Dragonwall,
I think
> you need to reconsider.
...unheardof since the times of Hawkwing at the most. But I think that
right now is one of those times. There is a quote of Rand in TPoD
where he says to himself that the army he brings to his battle with the
Seanchan of 6,000 would have been a large army to the Lords in his
group a few years before. Now, armies of tens of thousands or even
hundreds of thousands are just as common. I don't think it is
unreasonable to assume that the larger countries, Tear, Andor, Illian,
and Cairhien, would have had armies numbering 30,000-60,000 men during
a time of war. If that is the case, then the Aiel would have been
severely outnumbered with only 4 clans. Say on the order of 5 to 10 to
1.
John C. Mann
Willum
John C. Mann <rog...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:80picl$cq7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <19991114153036...@ngol04.aol.com>,
> tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
> > In article <80c6bm$2b1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, John C. Mann <rogosh@my-
> deja.com>
> > writes:
<the Aiel and numbers>
> I don't think it is
> unreasonable to assume that the larger countries, Tear, Andor,
Illian,
> and Cairhien, would have had armies numbering 30,000-60,000 men
during
> a time of war. If that is the case, then the Aiel would have been
> severely outnumbered with only 4 clans. Say on the order of 5 to 10
to
> 1.
Yeah, but just because you have 60,000 men on the roll, doesn't mean
you will have 60,000 fit, loyal men on a field of battle. Corrupt
paymasters and commanders were notorious for doubling up on rolls,
pocketing the extra pay themselves. As well, feeding, moving, arming ,
training and co-ordinating 60,000 men is difficult.
In China for example, at various stages the emperor could
theoretically call on a million or more troops when needed (Mongol
invasions for eg), and yet in reality, getting even 20,000 fit,
trained loyal men on to field of battle in enough time could prove a
difficult task for even the best generals.