R. E. Feist and R. Jordan Similarities
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
way I see it, author 1 reads a book by author 2 from before and decides: "
well, this is not really plagiarism, since this is also a Gibberish legend
of the Wer-Ahm-Ay tribe in central Intercontinentia from 3000 years ago...".
Or author 1 had read the book by author 2 at some point and when writing his
own remebered some concept but couldn't quite remember where it came from.
I don't think that taking other writers' minor concepts or terminology is
bad, at any rate. It probably is unhumanly hard to write a book without
taking absolutely anything from somebody else. Everybody is influenced by
what they have read before, consciously or subconsciously. Likewise, it is
unfair to expect that in the future writers will not take anything from the
WOT. It is too influential of a work in the genre.
Back to the point.
A fairly generic point. Tomas of Crydee picks up the armor of Valheru and
gets memory flashbacks and gains the skill, magic, and memories of the
Dragon Lord to some extent. Weak parallel to Mat.
Not generic at all. The plotting of the Tsurani High Council members and
the general bickering between Tsurani noble families is referred to as 'the
Great Game' (among other names).
Hadati hillmen are mentioned to have a code of honor in which it gains you
more honor to touch your opponent (and live) than to kill one. Also, one
such Hadati hillperson saves a certain Prince's life and then says that
there's no debt, it is rather he , the hillman, repaying the debt (Prince's
father died fighting for the Hadati villages against invaders). You know
who it all looks like.
Now, I am _not_ implying anything or saying that RJ copied this blindly
Frankly, I don't care a single little bit. Copyright law generally stinks,
imo). I am simply bringing this literal similarities between the two
series. And, if you haven't read the Riftwar saga yet, and you don't know
what to read in anticipation of the WH, read it. It's really good. Strats
off a bit slowly, but picks up eventually.
O.
Ethan Sherrard
similar - not in all of the details, just in the general sense of the place and
the people. It seems to me that both authors use them and fit them into their
tales in the same way - exotic empire defined and stratified by the blood of
ancestors who originally came from a much different place, invading the main
story-world and enslaving its people with strange creatures and brightly colored
armor. Of course the two (S and T) are very different in other ways, and of
course the concept I'm talking about is very general, and much less the property
of any one author than a good amount of other stuff that Jordan took from
others; but when I read about Seanchan I always have to keep reminding myself
that grolm _don't_ have six legs, and that their ships and armor are _not_ made
from Tsurani hardened leather. Just a feeling.
GOODEVENING
Ethan
Rain Shadow
news:3903CD03...@zipcon.net...
LOL! Of course, Martin's(forget first name) Game of Thrones has actual
dragons...
--
-(ir)Rev. Anthony Parisi
Like "the sound and the Fury", but mellow..
jeyakaran
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov wrote in message ...
Roger Longden
customs. ie: the touching one's opponent thing is from certain Native American
tribes. I bet there are literally dozens of books that refer to the political
system as "The Game" or "Great Game", so Feist wasn't exactly a towering genious
for inventing that term, either. And magical armor instilling special skills is
about as generic as it gets.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
Roger Longden wrote in message <39047022...@GOAWAY.yahoo.com>...
>Most of these major items are taken from several ancient mythologies and
>customs. ie: the touching one's opponent thing is from certain Native
American
>tribes.
Yeah, but what is a better bet 1) RJ read the Riftwar series; 2) RJ knows
Native American customs. Either aren't bad, but the first is 100%.
Everything is taken from something that is in turn taken from something.
You can't (shouldn't) take and copy other author's original idea, but if you
know that he took it from 'public domain' (mythology), then you can, even if
you never read or heard that particular myth. And then you don't even have
to mention the author from which you took it, as it's not the primary
source.
The Great Gray Skwid
<Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> <"Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov"
<Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net>> whispered:
> Roger Longden wrote in message <39047022...@GOAWAY.yahoo.com>...
> >Most of these major items are taken from several ancient mythologies and
> >customs. ie: the touching one's opponent thing is from certain Native
> American
> >tribes.
> Yeah, but what is a better bet 1) RJ read the Riftwar series; 2) RJ knows
> Native American customs. Either aren't bad, but the first is 100%.
You might want to do some more research on some of Mr. Rigney's other
writings. IIRC, he did some non-fiction writing early in his career on
one of the better known tribes (Navajo is what's coming to mind, but I
couldn't say for sure).
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"Cannanihilism: when the emptiness of it all just eats you up" - Kkkenn
John Colton
<jeya...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>What did you think of the Serpentwar?
I was a very disappointed in the Serpentwar books. I really loved the
Riftwar, as well as the Mistress of the Empire books (with Janny
Wurts), and disliked the Serpentwar books enough that I'm considering
selling them to a used book store, something I almost never do with
books I own.
John
Roger Longden
first than from reading the Riftwar saga.
Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov wrote:
> Roger Longden wrote in message <39047022...@GOAWAY.yahoo.com>...
> >Most of these major items are taken from several ancient mythologies and
> >customs. ie: the touching one's opponent thing is from certain Native
> American
> >tribes.
>
> Yeah, but what is a better bet 1) RJ read the Riftwar series; 2) RJ knows
> Native American customs. Either aren't bad, but the first is 100%.
>
NineInchNall
"John Colton" <col...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:3904b256....@agate.berkeley.edu...
Ah, they weren't _that_ bad, dude. It's just that there wasn't much of Pug
or Tomas for most of the saga.
I kinda found it fun to see Pug the Level 73 Mage kick some booty. I always
love that.
Prolly nostalgia talking. The Riftwar Saga was the second fantasy series I
ever read.
-Tom Welsh
--
"... would be like calling an ox a bull. He's thankful for the honor, but
would rather have back what's rightfully his."
John Colton
<ninein...@nineinchnall.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>"John Colton" <col...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
>news:3904b256....@agate.berkeley.edu...
>> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:31:04 -0700, "jeyakaran"
>> <jeya...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> >What did you think of the Serpentwar?
>>
>> I was a very disappointed in the Serpentwar books. I really loved the
>> Riftwar, as well as the Mistress of the Empire books (with Janny
>> Wurts), and disliked the Serpentwar books enough that I'm considering
>> selling them to a used book store, something I almost never do with
>> books I own.
>
>
>Ah, they weren't _that_ bad, dude. It's just that there wasn't much of Pug
>or Tomas for most of the saga.
Probably I was especially sore because of my great expectations.
>I kinda found it fun to see Pug the Level 73 Mage kick some booty. I always
>love that.
Gotta love Pug. And Macros. And Tomas, for that matter.
>Prolly nostalgia talking. The Riftwar Saga was the second fantasy series I
>ever read.
Wow, let me reminisce: first fantasy series for me was Lord of the
Rings (still gotta be my favorite), then a few children's series, like
Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, Madeleine L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time,
and Ursula Leguin's Wizard of Earthsea, then probably the Dragonlance
books, and somewhere around there I read Riftwar.
John
NineInchNall
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:56:45 -0400, "NineInchNall"
> <ninein...@nineinchnall.dyndns.org> wrote:
> >"John Colton" <col...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> >news:3904b256....@agate.berkeley.edu...
> >> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:31:04 -0700, "jeyakaran"
> >> <jeya...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >What did you think of the Serpentwar?
> >>
> >> I was a very disappointed in the Serpentwar books. I really loved the
> >> Riftwar, as well as the Mistress of the Empire books (with Janny
> >> Wurts), and disliked the Serpentwar books enough that I'm considering
> >> selling them to a used book store, something I almost never do with
> >> books I own.
> >
> >Ah, they weren't _that_ bad, dude. It's just that there wasn't much of
Pug
> >or Tomas for most of the saga.
>
> Probably I was especially sore because of my great expectations.
>
Yeah, I was annoyed by some of it, myself. But it was still fun.
> >I kinda found it fun to see Pug the Level 73 Mage kick some booty. I
always
> >love that.
>
> Gotta love Pug. And Macros. And Tomas, for that matter.
>
Let's hear it for the superpowers! Ranked in order of strength:
1. Pug
2. God
3. Macros
4. Tomas
Woohoo.
> >Prolly nostalgia talking. The Riftwar Saga was the second fantasy series
I
> >ever read.
>
> Wow, let me reminisce: first fantasy series for me was Lord of the
> Rings (still gotta be my favorite), then a few children's series, like
> Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, Madeleine L'Engle's Wrinkle in Time,
> and Ursula Leguin's Wizard of Earthsea, then probably the Dragonlance
> books, and somewhere around there I read Riftwar.
>
I never finished LotR, myself. It's just too _boring_. Oooh. A war.
Whoopteedoo.
In chronological reading order:
4th grade:
1.) books 1-9 of Xanth. Yup.
2.) Riftwar Saga (tied with WoT as my fave)
3.) The Prydain Chronicles
4.) The Dark is Rising (it was fun, dammit)
5.) The Screwtape Letters
6.) the Dune series
beyond 4th:
7-????) way too much fantasy
-Tom Welsh
--
#include <geek.h>
Johan Gustafsson
"NineInchNall" <ninein...@nineinchnall.dyndns.org> writes:
>
> "John Colton" <col...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> news:3904b256....@agate.berkeley.edu...
> > On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:31:04 -0700, "jeyakaran"
> > <jeya...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > >What did you think of the Serpentwar?
> >
> > I was a very disappointed in the Serpentwar books. I really loved the
> > Riftwar, as well as the Mistress of the Empire books (with Janny
> > Wurts), and disliked the Serpentwar books enough that I'm considering
> > selling them to a used book store, something I almost never do with
> > books I own.
>
>
> Ah, they weren't _that_ bad, dude. It's just that there wasn't much of Pug
> or Tomas for most of the saga.
>
> love that.
Heh. This was one of the reasons I disliked Serpentwar. I think I cheered
when Macros finally bit the dust (yay!). I really dislike these large-ass
super-magicians. I almost skipped their parts out of pure boredom. Feist
had a couple of good ideas, but I think he needs to look more to the
smaller things. Erik and Roo had decent parts and the first two books were
promising, then everything went apeshit in Demon King.
> Prolly nostalgia talking. The Riftwar Saga was the second fantasy series I
> ever read.
Riftwar is good.
Empire trilogy is fucking great!
--
Johan Gustafsson *** e98...@efd.lth.se
Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the President?
Mark Erikson
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov <Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:d%MM4.20143$PV.14...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
> A fairly generic point. Tomas of Crydee picks up the armor of Valheru and
> gets memory flashbacks and gains the skill, magic, and memories of the
> Dragon Lord to some extent. Weak parallel to Mat.
>
> Not generic at all. The plotting of the Tsurani High Council members and
> the general bickering between Tsurani noble families is referred to as
'the
> Great Game' (among other names).
>
> Hadati hillmen are mentioned to have a code of honor in which it gains you
> more honor to touch your opponent (and live) than to kill one. Also, one
> such Hadati hillperson saves a certain Prince's life and then says that
> there's no debt, it is rather he , the hillman, repaying the debt
(Prince's
> father died fighting for the Hadati villages against invaders). You know
> who it all looks like.
None of these small pieces of each world is at all big enough to make any
sort of fuss over. These are really only one step above 'they both use main
characters that start off as farm boys'.
Yeah they're similarities, but they're definately not plagiarisms.
> Now, I am _not_ implying anything or saying that RJ copied this blindly
> Frankly, I don't care a single little bit. Copyright law generally
stinks,
> imo). I am simply bringing this literal similarities between the two
> series. And, if you haven't read the Riftwar saga yet, and you don't know
> what to read in anticipation of the WH, read it. It's really good. Strats
> off a bit slowly, but picks up eventually.
The first book is good. The second and third aren't even the same series,
they just contain the same characters.
The first book is well worth the read though.
--
-Mark Erikson, 18 year old virgin
asha...@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/3730/
'These are the same dickheads who threw beer bottles
at my head in high school because I had green hair.
Fuck em! Now they dance for me!'
-Bob C. Cock on American Footballers
Raymond E. Feist
presence of the subject of a group has a "chilling effect" on
conversation. That's why I stay away (for most of the time) from
alt.books.raymond_feist and do all my commentary on the Feistfans List.
But I was alerted to this thread this morning and felt the need to drop
by. So let me make the following VERY clear:
Jim Rigney (Robert Jordan) needs to "borrow" stuff from me like I need my
taxes raised.
I first met "Robert Jordan" at the World Fantasy Convention in Chicago in
1983 (after his 1st Conan novel, and Magician had been published--we were
"new authors" together--well, I was. Jim had written under some other
names before taking on the Robert Jordan handle).
We've been friendly acquaintances ever since. I last sat down to have a
drink with Jim and his wife, Harriet McDougal, in Atlanta at the 1997
Dragon Con where we were both GoH's.
So let me make it clear: 1) all fantasy has to have (wait for it!)
"Fantasy Elements" in it, so things like dragons, armor, magic, etc. are
coin of choice in writing such books. 2) it's not what you do, it's how
you do it. My style and the style of other writers in the field are very
different. The "window dressing" of dragons, armor, and the rest of it
are simply how we choose to decorate; the heart of the story is the
characters and plot.
I've been accused of "borrowing" from other writers (even from books that
were written ten years after mine). All of us have, by fans who somehow
think the universe evolved in the order in which they discovered it.
Not true.
So, take it from me: "Robert Jordan" didn't borrow anything from my work,
ever. He's a talented storyteller who has built a huge following for one
reason only: people like to read what he's written.
Best, R.E.F.
--
Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity.
It's not the 21st Century until the calendar reads 01/01/01
Kate Nepveu
[...]
> Everything is taken from something that is in turn taken from something.
> You can't (shouldn't) take and copy other author's original idea, but
> if you know that he took it from 'public domain' (mythology), then you
> can, even if you never read or heard that particular myth. And then you
> don't even have to mention the author from which you took it, as it's
> not the primary source.
In case you're trying to make a point about copyright law, rather than
general ethics--
Ideas are not copyrightable. Period.
(And I haven't read Feist, but I think you're stretching things more than
a little bit. See also the WOT FAQ re: _Dune_.)
Kate
--
http://lynx.neu.edu/k/knepveu/ -- The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
"Left of west and coming in a hurry
With the Furies breathing down your neck."
--REM, "It's the End of the World as We Know It"
The Great Gray Skwid
<snip all>
> Best, R.E.F.
I _love_ it when he does this. Way, way cool.
Always a fan, man; and thanks for caring!
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
Kate Nepveu wrote in message <8e4d11$8jc$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu>...
>Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov (Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>
>[...]
>> Everything is taken from something that is in turn taken from something.
>> You can't (shouldn't) take and copy other author's original idea, but
>> if you know that he took it from 'public domain' (mythology), then you
>> can, even if you never read or heard that particular myth. And then you
>> don't even have to mention the author from which you took it, as it's
>> not the primary source.
>
>In case you're trying to make a point about copyright law, rather than
>general ethics--
I was not trying to make a point on copyright or anything of that nature. I
am _not_ one of those people who says that Jordan ripped off his stuff from
somewhere. All I was trying to say is, look, these things are remarkably
similar in the two series (not the armor business, of course, as I pointed
out in the original post). I am sure that RJ read the Riftwar series, I
think he recommends it when asked of fantasy he likes. He could not have
been not influenced by reading it. It is probably true that the two authors
just used similar sources for Hadati and Aiel (Native Americans) and the
name 'The Great Game' is probably rather generic for what it describes. But
it could well be possible that RJ saw the description in the Riftwar books,
liked it, found out where it came from and used something similar in his own
book. Or maybe it's purely coincidental. In either case, as I was saying,
it is not plagiarism in neither copyright nor ethical sense (and who am I to
judge, anyways?).
>Ideas are not copyrightable. Period.
>
>(And I haven't read Feist, but I think you're stretching things more than
>a little bit. See also the WOT FAQ re: _Dune_.)
I was not stretching things since I did not say that RJ copied this and this
bluntly. I read the FAQ and I read the Dune. And Aielmen are a lot like
Fremen. I just thought that it's interesting that a similar group of people
is described in yet another book.
I am sorry if I were taken as saying that some unethical copying took place.
That was never my intent. The first paragraph above is a _general_
speculation and should not be taken as anything other than that.
Once again: I do not say that RJ copied the particular bits that I brought
up.
O.
John Colton
<ninein...@nineinchnall.dyndns.org> wrote:
[snip]
>5.) The Screwtape Letters
(nitpick)
While the Screwtape Letters is an incredible book in its own right, I
wouldn't really classify it as fantasy. In fact, last week I was just
thinking about re-reading it, and your post may have just tipped it to
the top of my list.
John
John Colton
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:08:50 GMT, ray...@bittersea.com (Raymond E.
Feist) wrote:
>Re: this thread. I usually don't post on usenet, because I think the
>presence of the subject of a group has a "chilling effect" on
>conversation. That's why I stay away (for most of the time) from
>alt.books.raymond_feist and do all my commentary on the Feistfans List.
Haven't heard of this list. Where can one find more information?
[snip to near the end]
>Best, R.E.F.
Thanks for the books! Although (as noted in a separate post) I didn't
like Sepentwar very much, I would rank both Riftwar and the Empire
series with any fantasy books out there. It's been a few years since I
read Serpentwar, but IIRC here's why I didn't enjoy them: too much sex
& violence, and the main character(s) was not very likeable.
>Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity.
Is this Feist's Rule? Sort of reminiscent of Niven's Law (paraphrase):
No cause is so noble that you can't find an idiot who supports it.
>It's not the 21st Century until the calendar reads 01/01/01
Ah! Another purist.
John
J.D.L.
John Colton wrote:
> Mr. Feist, thanks for your comments.
Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting? I hope my doubt is
understandable, it's easy to pretend to be someone else online.
The Great Gray Skwid
R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
Shut that guy up right quick, 'e did.
J.D.L.
Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov wrote:
> Of course, authors dig stuff out of the same sources, etc, etc... But, the
> way I see it, author 1 reads a book by author 2 from before and decides: "
> well, this is not really plagiarism, since this is also a Gibberish legend
> of the Wer-Ahm-Ay tribe in central Intercontinentia from 3000 years ago...".
> Or author 1 had read the book by author 2 at some point and when writing his
> own remebered some concept but couldn't quite remember where it came from.
> I don't think that taking other writers' minor concepts or terminology is
> bad, at any rate. It probably is unhumanly hard to write a book without
> taking absolutely anything from somebody else. Everybody is influenced by
> what they have read before, consciously or subconsciously. Likewise, it is
> unfair to expect that in the future writers will not take anything from the
> WOT. It is too influential of a work in the genre.
I've always been in the defense of authors who are accused of stealing from
another, like Goodkind who is accused of ripping off RJ, or RJ from Feist in
this case. There are two reasons for this. The first being that some ideas
just aren't original. No one invented magical swords or Trolls or the quest for
a great treasure or anything like that. Well, I'm sure that someone did a long,
long time ago, but you get the point. Everyone is going to have a bad guy, a
good guy, the good guy always has the odds stacked against him, etc....
The second reason is that just plain coinidences _do_ happen. I have first
hand experience at this, as a friend and I once came up with an idea for a
fantasy novel, and even had a rough outline and sketch of what would be in it.
Come to find out, after almost a year of the most simple planning and writing
for this, it carried a _lot_ of similarities to a computer game entitled "Quest
for Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness" which we had not played prior to making up
this story. Even though the game was made before we started writing, we hadn't
played it yet.
Mike Kozlowski
The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>We leaned closer as J.D.L. <jonathan....@maine.edu> whispered:
>> Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting?
>
>R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
That was actually Dennis McKiernan.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~mkozlows/
Nathan Lundblad
>> Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting? I hope my doubt is
>> understandable, it's easy to pretend to be someone else online.
>R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
Dennis McKiernan did that to me once, here, after I laid somewhat
vituperatively into his _Iron Tower_ trilogy, although to his credit he
was pretty good-natured about it. There was quite a little discussion
about the incident.
>Shut that guy up right quick, 'e did.
Was that a good thing? Should people be bullied into not voicing criticism in
a forum where such criticism, and the ensuing discussion, is the accepted norm?
Granted, one should never criticize without being able to stand your ground when
the subject of said criticism sez 'hey!', but one should also feel free to voice
opinions without someone trying to guilt-trip with a drive-by "I'm here, you know."
(I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
--
Nathan Lundblad lund...@alum.calberkeley.org
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
>1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
It is definitely worth reading. I've got the Bantam 'author's preferred
edition' which has extra material compared to the original edition, but the
major threads are the same (I haven't read the first one, this I take from
R.E.F.'s foreword). I've just got done with Silverthorn and am looking
forward to have my car fixed so I could drive to the bookstore and get me
the next installment.
Riftwar is the only fantasy creation that I find comparable to the WOT on my
scale of enjoyment. I don't want to say that one is better than another.
They're different and both very enjoyable.
Does anybody know if Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master were ever
published as one book? From the foreword it seemed that it originally was
but I wasn't clear on whether it was actually ever published as a single
'Magician' volume.
O.
The Great Gray Skwid
> In article <MPG.136f938cc...@news.gte.com>,
> >favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
> >something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
You're correct, as I'll address in my post to Nathan.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
J.D.L. wrote in message <3905D59F...@maine.edu>...
Just for the record, I am not _accusing_ anybody of anything.
>There are two reasons for this. The first being that some ideas
>just aren't original. No one invented magical swords or Trolls or the
quest for
>a great treasure or anything like that. Well, I'm sure that someone did a
long,
>long time ago, but you get the point. Everyone is going to have a bad guy,
a
>good guy, the good guy always has the odds stacked against him, etc....
Very true. But one of the things that makes the particular piece of
literature *good* is the ability of the author to create with originality
within a certain genre (like REF and RJ, I think, and the frame of fantasy
is quite constricting)
>
>The second reason is that just plain coinidences _do_ happen. I have
first
>hand experience at this, as a friend and I once came up with an idea for a
>fantasy novel, and even had a rough outline and sketch of what would be in
it.
>Come to find out, after almost a year of the most simple planning and
writing
>for this, it carried a _lot_ of similarities to a computer game entitled
"Quest
>for Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness" which we had not played prior to making
up
>this story. Even though the game was made before we started writing, we
hadn't
>played it yet.
It is likely that such coincidences happen either because the ideas are
influenced by the same primary source (your reason one) or just because they
make sense.
O.
The Great Gray Skwid
whispered:
> >> Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting? I hope my doubt is
> >> understandable, it's easy to pretend to be someone else online.
> >favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
> >something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
> vituperatively into his _Iron Tower_ trilogy, although to his credit he
> was pretty good-natured about it. There was quite a little discussion
> about the incident.
The Koz was absolutely right, I did misrecollect on my famous author
types.
> >Shut that guy up right quick, 'e did.
> Was that a good thing? Should people be bullied into not voicing criticism in
> a forum where such criticism, and the ensuing discussion, is the accepted norm?
> Granted, one should never criticize without being able to stand your ground when
> the subject of said criticism sez 'hey!', but one should also feel free to voice
> opinions without someone trying to guilt-trip with a drive-by "I'm here, you know."
Put that way, I can definitely see your point; and I suppose Feist feels
the same as he commented he doesn't hang out on his alt group for much
the same reasons..
> (I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
> 1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
Before tEotW came around, that was my all-time favorite book. It's still
high on my list of favorites, but I feel it's probably best suited for
younger but advanced readers (as I was when I was 10-14ish, the period in
which it reigned supreme in my esteem).
So I would definitely say it's worth reading, and a fun read at that.
sean
<Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Does anybody know if Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master were ever
>published as one book? From the foreword it seemed that it originally was
>but I wasn't clear on whether it was actually ever published as a single
>'Magician' volume.
They are in the UK.
--
T Sean Connolly sean.connolly @ dial.pipex.com
Aaron Bergman
>In article <MPG.136f938cc...@news.gte.com>,
>>
>>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
>
Wasn't that Loy imitating McKiernan? McKiernan did show up
earlier, though.
Aaron
--
Aaron Bergman
<http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/>
Mark Loy
aber...@princeton.edu wrote:
No, I'm reasonably sure that was not Loy.
Course with Loy...you can never know exactly what's going on inside that
head of his. I mean he's never read anything by McKiernan, that he can
remember, and you would think that he'd therefore have no...inspiration
for imitating the man.
But then maybe he just got a wild hair and decided to do some kind of
'generic' imitation gag and there you have it.
But I still doubt that Loy did that in this instance.
Mark "Ramblin' Third person-R-Us" Loy
Aaron Bergman
>In article <slrn8gc3mn....@tree1.Stanford.EDU>,
>aber...@princeton.edu wrote:
>
>> In article <8e4lq1$80am$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Mike Kozlowski wrote:
>> >In article <MPG.136f938cc...@news.gte.com>,
>> >The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >>We leaned closer as J.D.L. <jonathan....@maine.edu> whispered:
>> >
>> >>> Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting?
>> >>
>> >>R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
>> >>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>> >>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
>> >
>> >That was actually Dennis McKiernan.
>>
>> Wasn't that Loy imitating McKiernan? McKiernan did show up
>> earlier, though.
>
>No, I'm reasonably sure that was not Loy.
You're quite right. It was Travaglia. Many apologies.
Mike Kozlowski
Nathan Lundblad <lund...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>(I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
>1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
If you like Generic Fantasy, yeah. It's pretty decent, as that genre
goes: not great literature, but enjoyable. I'd probably rate _Magician_,
at least, as just a titch below early Jordan. If you demand novelty and
originality, though, probably not the book for you.
Feist and Wurts' Riftwar Trilogy, though, is actually good even if you
don't like D&D-esque fantasy.
Aaron Bergman
>
>You're quite right. It was Travaglia. Many apologies.
OK. I've got it worked out now. First, there's
<http://x38.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=231333898>
Which is McKiernan's response to Nathan.
Then there's Travaglia's forgery
<http://x38.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=279196260>
six months later.
Trent Goulding
>Authors popping up in SF newsgroups is always problematic. There's a
>stable of authors on rasfw smart enough not to comment on their own
>work too terribly often-- Guy Kay and Brenda Clough spring immediately
>to mind. Then there's people like Stirling who do comment-- at
>length-- on their own works. To their personal detriment.
There's a core of authors over there who seem to have mastered how,
and when, to play the respective roles of author and fan.
And actually, I think Stirling generally does alright when he sticks
to commenting just on his own work.
It's when he comments on anything else, including the tangents that
inevitably get spun off of discussions of his work, that he goes
astray and almost inevitably ends up looking like a flaming asshole
with his cutesy little three line drive-bys.
>I shudder to imagine Jordan showing up here.
>
>("So, what the hell were you thinking when you decided that there is
>no religion in Randland? Are you daft?")
I can't even describe the frisson of delight that dances up and down
my spine at the thought of the pissin', spittin', knock-down-drag-
out that we could roil our way through if Jordan showed up here on a
chip-on-his-shoulder, hell-bent mission to defend a few of his more
obvious fuck-ups.
--
Trent Goulding goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu
rajesh...@my-deja.com
>
> Wasn't that Loy imitating McKiernan? McKiernan did show up
> earlier, though.
I think it was Jon Travaglia.
--
Rajesh
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
Mike Kozlowski wrote in message <8e588g$9jr8$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
Huh? Feist and Wurts wrote the Empire trilogy. _Magician_ is a part of the
Riftwar series written by Feist w/o Wurts.
O.
John S. Novak, III
Fix yer line lengths.
On 25 Apr 2000 19:53:25 GMT, Nathan Lundblad <lund...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
>>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
>Dennis McKiernan did that to me once, here, after I laid somewhat
>vituperatively into his _Iron Tower_ trilogy, although to his credit he
>was pretty good-natured about it. There was quite a little discussion
>about the incident.
I seem to remember thinking it was a bit... tacky, I suppose, for
McKiernan to jump out of the woodwork like that, with the fairly
wounded tone he did. It looked to me for all the world like, "I'm
sorry you feel that way," was intended to be a guilt trip.
This would not serve Goodkind well if he, for instance, showed up
here on the heels of one of my rants about WFR and pulled the same
tactic. Namely because I'd feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about
going into great detail about why I think Goodkind should give me
several hundred bucks (twenty for the book, which was crap, and the
rest for the hours of my life I'll never get back....
Authors popping up in SF newsgroups is always problematic. There's a
stable of authors on rasfw smart enough not to comment on their own
work too terribly often-- Guy Kay and Brenda Clough spring immediately
to mind. Then there's people like Stirling who do comment-- at
length-- on their own works. To their personal detriment.
I shudder to imagine Jordan showing up here.
("So, what the hell were you thinking when you decided that there is
no religion in Randland? Are you daft?")
>(I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
>1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
I really liked the first... big old bunch of them that I read. The
first four, at least. Some people think they're derivative of
Tolkien, and in my opinion there are strong Tolkien elements in there,
but not enough to damage it. They're High Fantasy in every sense,
though, with enemies (and a few characters) capable of ripping worlds
apart practically with their bare hands. But Feist's descriptions of
the High Magic are prety cool. Or they were when I was in high school
and college, or whenever I read them. He also usually manages to keep
the World-Tearing Characters off stage most of the time.
Most people think that his collaborations with Wurtz are the greatest
things ever written, but I prefer his own books. I haven't bothered
reading the last few books he's put out.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
The Humblest Man on the Net
John S. Novak, III
<Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>book. Or maybe it's purely coincidental. In either case, as I was saying,
>it is not plagiarism in neither copyright nor ethical sense (and who am I to
>judge, anyways?).
It is very difficult to reconcile this statement with your previous
one about what authors can't and shouldn't do in terms of ideas.
John S. Novak, III
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:27:59 -0400,
J.D.L. <jonathan....@maine.edu> wrote:
>I've always been in the defense of authors who are accused of
>stealing from another, like Goodkind who is accused of ripping
>off RJ, or RJ from Feist in this case. There are two reasons
>for this. The first being that some ideas just aren't original.
>No one invented magical swords or Trolls or the quest for a great
>treasure or anything like that. Well, I'm sure that someone did
>a long, long time ago, but you get the point. Everyone is going
>to have a bad guy, a good guy, the good guy always has the odds
>stacked against him, etc....
Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
These are not legally actionable, but they _are_ tacky, through their
blatant nature.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:04:18 GMT, Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov
><Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>book. Or maybe it's purely coincidental. In either case, as I was
saying,
>>it is not plagiarism in neither copyright nor ethical sense (and who am I
to
>>judge, anyways?).
>
>It is very difficult to reconcile this statement with your previous
>one about what authors can't and shouldn't do in terms of ideas.
Not difficult at all.
For instance, it would be very wrong for somebody writing a new novel to
have an organization of wizardresses headed by a Papyrlin Seat, divided into
seven Jahs and taking three oaths on an Oath Ring. On the other hand, if
somebody has an organization with a parliament, a president and a useless
vice-president that's not really ripping off Jordan now, is it? Even if the
idea was inspired by reading the WOT and not by studying the history of
world's democracies.
O.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
>Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
>pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
>what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
>McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
You really don't need to think much about anything to predict most of what's
gonna happen in the Sw of Sh.
O.
Alaric Fox
John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<slrn8gcsc...@ts007d21.chi-il.concentric.net>...
> Fix your line lengths.
>
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:27:59 -0400,
> J.D.L. <jonathan....@maine.edu> wrote:
>
> >I've always been in the defense of authors who are accused of
> >stealing from another, like Goodkind who is accused of ripping
> >off RJ, or RJ from Feist in this case. There are two reasons
> >for this. The first being that some ideas just aren't original.
> >No one invented magical swords or Trolls or the quest for a great
> >treasure or anything like that. Well, I'm sure that someone did
> >a long, long time ago, but you get the point. Everyone is going
> >to have a bad guy, a good guy, the good guy always has the odds
> >stacked against him, etc....
>
> Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
> pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
> what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
> McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
>
I haven't read Mckiernon either, and it's been a lot of years since I read
tLotR or the SoS series. I didn't notice the similarities as much in high
school, but just thinking about SoS now makes me shudder.
> These are not legally actionable, but they _are_ tacky, through their
> blatant nature.
>
*sigh*
I *really* should get around to writing "The Mythical Monkey-Minute".
--Alaric
Andrea Leistra
John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Authors popping up in SF newsgroups is always problematic. There's a
>stable of authors on rasfw smart enough not to comment on their own
>work too terribly often-- Guy Kay and Brenda Clough spring immediately
>to mind. Then there's people like Stirling who do comment-- at
>length-- on their own works. To their personal detriment.
Incidentally, generally I enjoy having authors in rasfw. Stirling
is the one exception, and it's not just that I have no intention
of reading his stuff -- his posting style is annoying. (For those
who don't read rasfw, he tends to quote a single sentence from a
long post, followed by a brief comment of his own, always preceded
by a
--dash, like this.
I killfiled him a while ago, after a discussion on AI where this
trait was particularly prominent. I haven't seen anything of his
quoted since then that makes me regret the decision. Authors who
grep for their names and pop in only to defend their works (L.E.
M*desitt has done the same thing, dropping out of nowhere to
guilt-trip me after I said I didn't like the Recluce books) don't
win any points in my book.
At the other end of the continuum, there are posters whose books I
would buy in a heartbeat based on the strength of their posts. (Jo
Walton is the most obvious example, and happily one where I'll actually
be able to do so.)
--
Andrea Leistra
Donal K. Fellows
Mike Kozlowski <mkoz...@guy.ssc.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Nathan Lundblad <lund...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>> (I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
>> 1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
>
> goes: not great literature, but enjoyable.
I'm not aware of anyone (least of all REF) who would rate Magician as
great literature. But if you've got a genuine First Edition I'd treat
it more as an investment and not a book to read. Magician Firsts are
quite valuable since the series is popular but the first print run was
fairly small, apparently.
I prefer the later books though. Maybe there's less novelty, but the
writing is mostly better. The inter-book interval is far smaller than
with tWoT too so you can get another fix faster... :^)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ fell...@cs.man.ac.uk
-- I may seem more arrogant, but I think that's just because you didn't
realize how arrogant I was before. :^)
-- Jeffrey Hobbs <jeffre...@scriptics.com>
Terry call me Tezza Goodkind
wrote:
>I seem to remember thinking it was a bit... tacky, I suppose, for
>McKiernan to jump out of the woodwork like that, with the fairly
>wounded tone he did. It looked to me for all the world like, "I'm
>sorry you feel that way," was intended to be a guilt trip.
>
>This would not serve Goodkind well if he, for instance, showed up
>here on the heels of one of my rants about WFR and pulled the same
>tactic. Namely because I'd feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about
>going into great detail about why I think Goodkind should give me
>several hundred bucks (twenty for the book, which was crap, and the
>rest for the hours of my life I'll never get back....
Jiminy, John - I sure am sorry you feel that way.
*twinkle*
Tez
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective.
Uncut sig & website is at: http://www.omen.net.au/~hatboy/signature.htm
And the Alt.fan Rulebook is at: http://www.omen.net.au/~hatboy/6q.htm
"Tia mi trollocus moridin isainde vadin." (the Grave is no bar to my Troll)
Please keep your signature to four lines or less. *snigger*
Jon Look
>
> Fix your line lengths.
Again, my apologies. Public computer lab...they change from
time to time. I have no idea why.
> Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
> pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
> what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
> McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
>
> These are not legally actionable, but they _are_ tacky, through their
> blatant nature.
I read the Shannara series (or a couple of the books anyway)
and the LoTR, but I never saw how Brooks seemed to be
"copying" from Tolkein.
Then again, I'm not too bright to begin with, as most of you
who haven't killfiled me yet can see. And something as
complicated as comparing two authors and finding the
similarities is far too difficult for my bong resined brain
to absorb.
John S. Novak, III
<goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>There's a core of authors over there who seem to have mastered how,
>and when, to play the respective roles of author and fan.
>And actually, I think Stirling generally does alright when he sticks
>to commenting just on his own work.
I think Stirling is generally a twerp no matter what the subject.
>It's when he comments on anything else, including the tangents that
>inevitably get spun off of discussions of his work, that he goes
>astray and almost inevitably ends up looking like a flaming asshole
>with his cutesy little three line drive-bys.
--Not to mention his dipshit sense of formatting. Yeah, he's so
Special because of that.
>I can't even describe the frisson of delight that dances up and down
>my spine at the thought of the pissin', spittin', knock-down-drag-
>out that we could roil our way through if Jordan showed up here on a
>chip-on-his-shoulder, hell-bent mission to defend a few of his more
>obvious fuck-ups.
I expect it would not be pretty.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
John S. Novak, III
>Incidentally, generally I enjoy having authors in rasfw.
I enjoy it when they keep themselves in check.
> Stirling
>is the one exception, and it's not just that I have no intention
>of reading his stuff -- his posting style is annoying. (For those
>who don't read rasfw, he tends to quote a single sentence from a
>long post, followed by a brief comment of his own, always preceded
>by a
Stirling is the _current_ exception, anyway. There was Damon Knight
and his "I can post my comments at the top!" before he got spanked.
There was Sterling and his lunatic defense of Piers Anthony combined
with a lunatic take on Spoor's inane theory of Absolute Meaning.
(Sterling is generally a wanker, anyway. I've yet to read an essay
from him that actually makes any fucking sense at all.) There was
Shetterly and his "I am an SF author, so anything I discuss is on
topic!" approach. (Ironically, he'd love rasfw as it has fallen,
now.)
Etc.
>I killfiled him a while ago, after a discussion on AI where this
>trait was particularly prominent.
Well, that, and he had no idea what he's talking about.
The thing is, as a writer, he's not that bad. The Island in the Sea
of Time series has been readable, and the Draka books were pretty
good. He's just repellant on a personal level. Much like JMS.
> I haven't seen anything of his
>quoted since then that makes me regret the decision. Authors who
>grep for their names and pop in only to defend their works (L.E.
>M*desitt has done the same thing, dropping out of nowhere to
>guilt-trip me after I said I didn't like the Recluce books) don't
>win any points in my book.
It's just an open invitation to more ridicule, as far as I'm
concerned.
Richard M. Boye'
>
[...]
> >I killfiled him a while ago, after a discussion on AI where this
> >trait was particularly prominent.
>
> Well, that, and he had no idea what he's talking about.
>
> The thing is, as a writer, he's not that bad. The Island in the Sea
> of Time series has been readable, and the Draka books were pretty
> good. He's just repellant on a personal level. Much like JMS.
Okay, I'll ask.
What's the deal with JMS. I've barely had any experience with reading
his comments.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Trent Goulding
[rasfw authors]
> There was
>Shetterly and his "I am an SF author, so anything I discuss is on
>topic!" approach. (Ironically, he'd love rasfw as it has fallen,
>now.)
Shetterly--is his stuff actually worth reading? Because my only
exposure has been through his posts, and those have given me a
strong "I don't want to read his stuff" vibe.
[Stirling]
>The thing is, as a writer, he's not that bad. The Island in the Sea
>of Time series has been readable, and the Draka books were pretty
>good. He's just repellant on a personal level. Much like JMS.
This is just about my take on him, too. The _Islands_ stuff was
entertaining alterna-history, and I'll probably get around to the
third installment this summer. The Draka still win my award for
most repulsive, viscerally despicable villains, just because they
seem so real/possible. I hated them, especially in the middle book.
But for all that, they were interesting to read about, because I
don't think they were cardboard, whatever else they were.
That said, Stirling is an amazingly annoying git when he gets on one
of his "I am the god of logic and truth" kicks and starts making ex
cathedra pronouncements about The Way It Is.
--
Trent Goulding goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu
John S. Novak, III
>What's the deal with JMS. I've barely had any experience with reading
>his comments.
Anyone who has to have a special newsgroup and cadre dedicated to
running interference for him (formally) and sending news back and
forth, to protect him from... whatever it was he felt he needed to be
protected from (apparently a troll that he didn't have the guts to
stop responding to) is questionable at best.
Then there's the smug insistence that none of the cast-changes in
mid-stream cramped his style, when it's obvious that getting rid of
Talia requred some serious dodges and the premature death of Ivanova
pretty much destroyed the last season.
Etc.
And in general, he just seemed like a schmuck.
Kate Nepveu
> [rasfw authors]
> > There was
> >Shetterly and his "I am an SF author, so anything I discuss is on
> >topic!" approach. (Ironically, he'd love rasfw as it has fallen,
> >now.)
> Shetterly--is his stuff actually worth reading? Because my only
> exposure has been through his posts, and those have given me a
> strong "I don't want to read his stuff" vibe.
_Dogland_ is a very fine Harper-Lee-meets-Gaiman/Powers/Blaylock story.
_Elsewhere_ & _Nevernever_ are rather good YA novels set in the
Borderlands shared universe. If you'd like to know more about Wolfboy,
this is the place to go.
Most of the rest of his stuff that I've read is rather uneven. Those
three I do recommend to you, though.
Kate
--
http://lynx.neu.edu/k/knepveu/ -- The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
"Left of west and coming in a hurry
With the Furies breathing down your neck."
--REM, "It's the End of the World As We Know It"
John S. Novak, III
<goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>Shetterly--is his stuff actually worth reading? Because my only
>exposure has been through his posts, and those have given me a
>strong "I don't want to read his stuff" vibe.
Well, that's been my response, too.
I don't want to read his stuff.
>[Stirling]
>This is just about my take on him, too. The _Islands_ stuff was
>entertaining alterna-history, and I'll probably get around to the
>third installment this summer. The Draka still win my award for
>most repulsive, viscerally despicable villains, just because they
>seem so real/possible. I hated them, especially in the middle book.
I hated them especially in _Stone Dogs_.
But I think Vinge managed to tie them with the Emergents.
(I tell you, the Emergents are all engineering program managers...
<shudder>)
Pat O'Connell
>
We're discussin' bad guys, now.
> >[Stirling]
>
> >This is just about my take on him, too. The _Islands_ stuff was
> >entertaining alterna-history, and I'll probably get around to the
> >third installment this summer. The Draka still win my award for
> >most repulsive, viscerally despicable villains, just because they
> >seem so real/possible. I hated them, especially in the middle book.
>
> I hated them especially in _Stone Dogs_.
> But I think Vinge managed to tie them with the Emergents.
>
> (I tell you, the Emergents are all engineering program managers...
> <shudder>)
Not having read the book, are they engineers who can't manage, or
managers who don't know anything about engineering?
--
Pat O'Connell
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
John Colton
Lundblad) wrote:
>The Great Gray Skwid <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> John Colton wrote:
>
>>> Just out of curiousity, was that really Mr. Feist posting? I hope my doubt is
>>> understandable, it's easy to pretend to be someone else online.
>
>>R.E.F has posted here several times in the past when he came up. My
>>favorite was when somebody was bagging on 'im and he pops up and says
>>something along the line of "I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way."
>
>Dennis McKiernan did that to me once, here, after I laid somewhat
>vituperatively into his _Iron Tower_ trilogy, although to his credit he
>was pretty good-natured about it. There was quite a little discussion
>about the incident.
>
>>Shut that guy up right quick, 'e did.
>
>Was that a good thing? Should people be bullied into not voicing criticism in
>a forum where such criticism, and the ensuing discussion, is the accepted norm?
>
>Granted, one should never criticize without being able to stand your ground when
>the subject of said criticism sez 'hey!', but one should also feel free to voice
>opinions without someone trying to guilt-trip with a drive-by "I'm here, you know."
>
>(I haven't read any Feist, FWIW. My bro-in-law got me some sort of rare
>1st-edition of _Magician_ for Christmas. Worth reading?)
Yes, definitely. Read the first book, and if you like it, continue on.
The style of the others is similar, kind of half way between Jordan
and Asprin.
John
Andrea Leistra
Trent Goulding <goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>Shetterly--is his stuff actually worth reading? Because my only
>exposure has been through his posts, and those have given me a
>strong "I don't want to read his stuff" vibe.
The only thing I've read of his is _Dogland_, which is very good.
It's just barely fantasy, probably something that can safely be
classified as "magic realism", and could in fact be read as an
entirely mainstream novel -- it's just that a lot of resonances
would be missing if you don't pick up on the identity of some of
the visitors to Dogland.
--
Andrea Leistra
Trent Goulding
[The Draka]
>I hated them especially in _Stone Dogs_.
>But I think Vinge managed to tie them with the Emergents.
Definitely possible, especially with the example of Nau and his 2nd
in command (Ritser?). It's something about the cold-bloodedness,
wedded to the sheer competence of the control mechanisms (up until
the very end, of course), in turn wedded to the ideology that has so
many tantalizing half-truths, warped and twisted into something
truly nasty.
>(I tell you, the Emergents are all engineering program managers...
><shudder>)
So, can your average PM spin a "we must all pull together with 110%
effort if any of us are to survive" speech like Tomas Nau?
--
Trent Goulding goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu
John Colton
wrote:
[snip]
>This would not serve Goodkind well if he, for instance, showed up
>here on the heels of one of my rants about WFR and pulled the same
>tactic. Namely because I'd feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about
>going into great detail about why I think Goodkind should give me
>several hundred bucks (twenty for the book, which was crap, and the
>rest for the hours of my life I'll never get back....
[snip to end]
Did I ever mention my Goodkind experience? I had a couple of friends
(husband and wife) who knew I liked fantasy. They had just finished
Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, and liked it, so they loaned it to me.
I think it was the first fantasy book they had ever read. I finished
it, and they asked me what I thought. I said "It was OK, but I thought
the writing was a little amateurish." They said "What do you mean?" I
said "Well, compare it to this one," and loaned them Eye of the World.
They finished that a few weeks later, and said "We see what you mean!"
John
John Colton
wrote:
>Fix your line lengths.
>
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:27:59 -0400,
>J.D.L. <jonathan....@maine.edu> wrote:
>
>>I've always been in the defense of authors who are accused of
>>stealing from another, like Goodkind who is accused of ripping
>>off RJ, or RJ from Feist in this case. There are two reasons
>>for this. The first being that some ideas just aren't original.
>>No one invented magical swords or Trolls or the quest for a great
>>treasure or anything like that. Well, I'm sure that someone did
>>a long, long time ago, but you get the point. Everyone is going
>>to have a bad guy, a good guy, the good guy always has the odds
>>stacked against him, etc....
>
>Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
>pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
>what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
>McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
Agree totally with Sword of Shanarra assessment (I still found it
enjoyable, though). Haven't read McKiernon.
>These are not legally actionable, but they _are_ tacky, through their
>blatant nature.
Then there's Orson Scott Card's Homecoming books (Memory of Earth,
etc.), which are isomorphic to the first part of the Book of Mormon.
Even some quotes are lifted directly. I've wondered if this is common
knowledge-- do non-Mormons realize this? Again, they were still
enjoyable.
John
Matthew Hackell
> On 26 Apr 2000 00:25:18 -0400, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
But did they suggest that Jordan copied Goodkind's ideas? Inquiring
minds...
--
Matt
"I said 'You're that Dustin Hoffman aren't you?' and he said, 'Yes I am--
would you like a sandwich?' I was a bit surprised but I took a toastie from
him and tucked in."
John Colton
<mhac...@princeton.edu> wrote:
>From the book of John Colton:
>
>> On 26 Apr 2000 00:25:18 -0400, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> >This would not serve Goodkind well if he, for instance, showed up
>> >here on the heels of one of my rants about WFR and pulled the same
>> >tactic. Namely because I'd feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about
>> >going into great detail about why I think Goodkind should give me
>> >several hundred bucks (twenty for the book, which was crap, and the
>> >rest for the hours of my life I'll never get back....
>> [snip to end]
>>
>> Did I ever mention my Goodkind experience? I had a couple of friends
>> (husband and wife) who knew I liked fantasy. They had just finished
>> Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, and liked it, so they loaned it to me.
>> I think it was the first fantasy book they had ever read. I finished
>> it, and they asked me what I thought. I said "It was OK, but I thought
>> the writing was a little amateurish." They said "What do you mean?" I
>> said "Well, compare it to this one," and loaned them Eye of the World.
>> They finished that a few weeks later, and said "We see what you mean!"
>
>But did they suggest that Jordan copied Goodkind's ideas? Inquiring
>minds...
Nope, I think they realized who was more likely to have copied whom
(if any copying was being done).
John.
D. C. Kalen
John Colton <col...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:39087aed...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> On 26 Apr 2000 00:25:18 -0400, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >This would not serve Goodkind well if he, for instance, showed up
> >here on the heels of one of my rants about WFR and pulled the same
> >tactic. Namely because I'd feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about
> >going into great detail about why I think Goodkind should give me
> >several hundred bucks (twenty for the book, which was crap, and the
> >rest for the hours of my life I'll never get back....
> [snip to end]
>
> Did I ever mention my Goodkind experience? I had a couple of friends
> (husband and wife) who knew I liked fantasy. They had just finished
> Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, and liked it, so they loaned it to me.
> I think it was the first fantasy book they had ever read. I finished
> it, and they asked me what I thought. I said "It was OK, but I thought
> the writing was a little amateurish." They said "What do you mean?" I
> said "Well, compare it to this one," and loaned them Eye of the World.
> They finished that a few weeks later, and said "We see what you mean!"
>
good reason, I might add), I actually liked WFR at first. I was rather put
off by the whole Mord Sith/S&M Queens bit, and a couple of other rather
disturbing scenes, but it is one of the few books that really sucked me in
from page one.
Most books don't really do that. The first time I tried to read tEotW, I
only got as far as the end of the prologue and then set it aside as boring
as all get out. Granted, you really shouldn't judge a book by its prologue,
but I was really put off at the time (this was, IIRC, in Dec 90, when I was
a sophomore in college; my mom gave my brother and I each a pbk copy of the
book for Christmas that year). I didn't try again until a couple of years
ago. Around the time ACoS came out, IIRC. In some ways, this was a good
thing--I got to devour 6 books in a row, with only a short wait for book 7.
Now I'm in the same damn boat as everyone else, and its getting a bit
cramped.
In any case, I thought Goodkind's writing style (not his plotting, per se,
but just the style, and the way the book started off) was pretty good. I'm
sure Novak or somebody will chime in with a "No, it's not" but that's how I
felt about the book when I read it. Still, for the most part, I'd have to
agree with most of the negative comments that have been made regarding the
series...I have no intention of reading any more of them.
-- Dan
B Coolen
>
> On 26 Apr 2000 00:31:18 -0400, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
> wrote:
*snip stuff about there really only be a few stories to tell anyway*
> >Major exceptions being Terry Brooks, whose _Sword of Shanarra_ is
> >pretty much isomorphic to the Lord of the Rings (you can predict
> >what's going to happen, just by thinking back to the original) and
> >McKiernon, who I've been told is much the same.
>
> Agree totally with Sword of Shanarra assessment (I still found it
> enjoyable, though). Haven't read McKiernon.
This is the reason I've never read the Sword of Shanarra. I figured
that having read the original was good enough.
> >These are not legally actionable, but they _are_ tacky, through their
> >blatant nature.
>
> Then there's Orson Scott Card's Homecoming books (Memory of Earth,
> etc.), which are isomorphic to the first part of the Book of Mormon.
> Even some quotes are lifted directly. I've wondered if this is common
> knowledge-- do non-Mormons realize this? Again, they were still
> enjoyable.
I'm a non-Mormon and I had no idea. Does this mean I can tell me
that I've read the Book of Mormon if I ever get asked?
Brian
--
"A rock band performing Mussorgsky? To the traditionalists, this ...
was tantamount to sacriledge. And perhaps it was sacriledge. But
whatever it was, thank God they did it." - James Bickers on ELP
John S. Novak, III
<goul...@2001.law.ucla.edu> wrote:
>>(I tell you, the Emergents are all engineering program managers...
>><shudder>)
>So, can your average PM spin a "we must all pull together with 110%
>effort if any of us are to survive" speech like Tomas Nau?
At the drop of a fuckin' dime.
Key phrases: "Okay guys, it's crunch time!" "We're all going to have
to pull together and work hard, now....!"
Key response: "Fuck you, asshole, what you think we've been doing so
far? Playing fucking tiddlywinks?"
John S. Novak, III
>Given the antipathy most people here have expressed regarding Goodkind (with
>good reason, I might add), I actually liked WFR at first. I was rather put
>off by the whole Mord Sith/S&M Queens bit, and a couple of other rather
>disturbing scenes, but it is one of the few books that really sucked me in
>from page one.
<Snort>
By the time I had read page one, I already knew that Goodkind was a
hack. The map, for instance, displayed that he had no imagination
whatsoever. Hmm. Westlands... Eastlands... D'Harra? Which one of
these doesn't belong? Not to mention, "The People's Palace." Like he
was trying to be subtle, or something.
The actual first page revealed that the main character's brother was
obviously going to be in league with whatever evil would be stalking
the land, But if we were supposed to know from the get go, then
Goodkind bungled badly, because the impression I got is that he was
_trying_ to be subtle, and failing, entirely.
The first page also demonstrated that Goodkind was an atrocious prose
stylist.
Reading further, by the third capter, I knew I was dealing with the
kind of Very Bad Book that (hopefully) only comes along once in a
great while. I also knew that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING in the
Westlands (except the main character's fuckhead brother) was a
complete shambling drooler, incapable of interacting with this or any
other world on a rational basis. I mean, come on, a comission on the
harmful effects of FIRE for Chrissakes?
Amazingly, it monotonically declined from there.
I was drawn in only in the sense of having been drawn in to an MST3K
movie. Ich.
>In any case, I thought Goodkind's writing style (not his plotting, per se,
>but just the style, and the way the book started off) was pretty good.
No, it's not.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:46:39 -0700, D. C. Kalen <nos...@nothanks.com>
wrote:
>
>>Given the antipathy most people here have expressed regarding Goodkind
(with
>>good reason, I might add), I actually liked WFR at first. I was rather
put
>>off by the whole Mord Sith/S&M Queens bit, and a couple of other rather
>>disturbing scenes, but it is one of the few books that really sucked me in
>>from page one.
>
><Snort>
>
>By the time I had read page one, I already knew that Goodkind was a
>hack. The map, for instance, displayed that he had no imagination
>whatsoever. Hmm. Westlands... Eastlands... D'Harra? Which one of
>these doesn't belong? Not to mention, "The People's Palace." Like he
>was trying to be subtle, or something.
Oh, c'mon, you're bending it too far here. I actually was intrigued by the
map. It had Old World in it and I thought that this could be played out
nicely. I mean, mysterious Old World with unknown artifacts, an ancient
race, maybe. Unfortunately, my expectations didn't pay off. Goodkind's Old
World sucks. Why is it Old?!
But your discontent with the map is unfounded. Better have a generic
Westland than to make a pun like Egwene al'Vere. I was quite upset with RJ
when that one dawned on me.
O.
John S. Novak, III
<Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>By the time I had read page one, I already knew that Goodkind was a
>>hack. The map, for instance, displayed that he had no imagination
>>whatsoever. Hmm. Westlands... Eastlands... D'Harra? Which one of
>>these doesn't belong? Not to mention, "The People's Palace." Like he
>>was trying to be subtle, or something.
>Oh, c'mon, you're bending it too far here.
No, no I'm not.
>But your discontent with the map is unfounded. Better have a generic
>Westland than to make a pun like Egwene al'Vere. I was quite upset with RJ
>when that one dawned on me.
Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
I can always claim the ignorance of a non-native speaker. Although those
who know me don't buy it anymore for some reason :)
Seriously, even though I speak pretty Southern accent English and don't
need to run for a dictionary when reading the WOT, when I read books in
English, I tend to mentally mispronounce names. Just because it makes me
feel better. And I did not learn the mythology or history in English, and I
didn't read the same books in high school or college as you did so
oftentimes I have no idea how you guys spell this or that legendary
character or what else. Thus, all this wordplay crap evades me more so than
you. If you want to claim your name-riddle-uncovering superiority over me,
you have it, amigo. I never contested it. I am not going asking what of
Russian did Jordan put in the Old Tongue.
You can tell me about Wit and Daise Congar. I'm clueless and I'm curious.
O.
Jay Wiggins
On 28 Apr 2000 00:42:53 -0400, j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III)
wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:37:30 GMT, Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov
><Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>By the time I had read page one, I already knew that Goodkind was a
>>>hack. The map, for instance, displayed that he had no imagination
>>>whatsoever. Hmm. Westlands... Eastlands... D'Harra? Which one of
>>>these doesn't belong? Not to mention, "The People's Palace." Like he
>>>was trying to be subtle, or something.
>
>>Oh, c'mon, you're bending it too far here.
>
>No, no I'm not.
>
>>But your discontent with the map is unfounded. Better have a generic
>>Westland than to make a pun like Egwene al'Vere. I was quite upset with RJ
>>when that one dawned on me.
>
>Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
>At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
Um, he was Foretelling Darva?
Jay Wiggins
"A person is smart - people are stupid." -- K.
Jeff Stockwin
>John Colton wrote:
>>
>> Then there's Orson Scott Card's Homecoming books (Memory of Earth,
>> etc.), which are isomorphic to the first part of the Book of Mormon.
>> Even some quotes are lifted directly. I've wondered if this is common
>> knowledge-- do non-Mormons realize this? Again, they were still
>> enjoyable.
>
>I'm a non-Mormon and I had no idea. Does this mean I can tell me
>that I've read the Book of Mormon if I ever get asked?
Probably not. If it is anywhere near as boring as _Memory of Earth_, I
cannot see how it would convert a single person.
Ye gods, that thing was awful. I kept hoping the satelite-thing would
malfunction enough mechanically to crash into the main characters. The
book was only unique in that I managed to finish it knowing there were
more, but I still feel no desire to read the rest.
--
Jeff Stockwin "We do amuse the shit out of ourselves here."
jdastockwin -- Steve Monahan, on rasfwr-j
@ lis-a.com
Laura M. Parkinson
in blue:
>
>John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
>>Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
>>At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
>You can tell me about Wit and Daise Congar. I'm clueless and I'm curious.
Hrm, don't feel bad.. you're not the only one.
*looking befuddled*
--
-'-,-'-<<0 Trickster 0>>-'-,-'- lpark...@mindspring.com
http://lparkinson.home.mindspring.com
"Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be
destroyed." -Richard Adams, Watership Down
The Great Gray Skwid
whispered:
> "Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov" <Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> rhapsodized
> in blue:
> >John S. Novak, III wrote in message ...
> >>Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
> >>At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
> >You can tell me about Wit and Daise Congar. I'm clueless and I'm curious.
> Hrm, don't feel bad.. you're not the only one.
> *looking befuddled*
He may be referring to the inverted American Gothic picture after the Two
River's Big Trolloc Battle.
Or he may be being more subtle, and I'm lost too.
--
| | |\ | | | ) Theudegisklos "Skwid" Sweinbrothar
|/| |\ |/ | |X| ( SKWID, Vulture V4 pilot ( The Humblest Mollusc
| | | | | | | ) Evan "Skwid" Langlinais ) on the Net
"Cannanihilism: when the emptiness of it all just eats you up" - Kkkenn
Jeff Stockwin
>>But your discontent with the map is unfounded. Better have a generic
>>Westland than to make a pun like Egwene al'Vere. I was quite upset with RJ
>>when that one dawned on me.
>Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
>At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
OK, I give up. Other than Jack Sprat and his wife, I can't come up with
anything. Who are they?
--
Jeff Stockwin "They're _my_ anecdotes.
jdastockwin @ lis-a.com Of course I'm the hero."
- John S. Novak on rasfwr-j
John S. Novak, III
<sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>He may be referring to the inverted American Gothic picture after the Two
>River's Big Trolloc Battle.
>Or he may be being more subtle, and I'm lost too.
No, I'm referring to the American Gothic thing.
Oleg "Ptitsa" Ozerov
Jeff Stockwin wrote in message ...
>John S. Novak, III stood on the rasfwr-j soapbox and proclaimed:
>>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:37:30 GMT, Oleg \"Ptitsa\" Ozerov
>><Ozzypti...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>>But your discontent with the map is unfounded. Better have a generic
>>>Westland than to make a pun like Egwene al'Vere. I was quite upset with
RJ
>>>when that one dawned on me.
>
>>Let me know when you figure out Wit and Daise Congar.
>>At least Jrodan can be subtle once in a while.
>
>OK, I give up. Other than Jack Sprat and his wife, I can't come up with
>anything. Who are they?
The only thing that I could think of is Wit - a _very smart_ husband, Daise
(Daisy) a _very complacent and naive wife_. However, if that's subtle, I'm
a Spanish fighter pilot.
O.
The Great Gray Skwid
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:08:52 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >He may be referring to the inverted American Gothic picture after the Two
> >River's Big Trolloc Battle.
> >Or he may be being more subtle, and I'm lost too.
> No, I'm referring to the American Gothic thing.
Yippee! I win.
I thought that was *hilarious* when I caught it. Rolling around kind of
funny, and all that.
Richard M. Boye'
>
> We leaned closer as John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> whispered:
> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:08:52 -0500, The Great Gray Skwid
> > <sk...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >He may be referring to the inverted American Gothic picture after the Two
> > >River's Big Trolloc Battle.
> > >Or he may be being more subtle, and I'm lost too.
> > No, I'm referring to the American Gothic thing.
>
> Yippee! I win.
>
> I thought that was *hilarious* when I caught it. Rolling around kind of
> funny, and all that.
In the painting, that's the farmer and his _daughter_.
Daise and Wit are spouses.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/ UIN:9021244
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
John S. Novak, III
>> I thought that was *hilarious* when I caught it. Rolling around kind of
>> funny, and all that.
>In the painting, that's the farmer and his _daughter_.
>Daise and Wit are spouses.
I believe the proper plural would be "spice".
At any rate, the Coplins and Congars are all so intermarried, they're
really just one big extended clan. What's one more little piece of
incest, as long as you keep it in the family?
--
John S. Novak, III j...@concentric.net
dmcmi...@gmail.com
> Of course, authors dig stuff out of the same sources, etc, etc... But, the
> way I see it, author 1 reads a book by author 2 from before and decides: "
> well, this is not really plagiarism, since this is also a Gibberish legend
> of the Wer-Ahm-Ay tribe in central Intercontinentia from 3000 years ago...".
> Or author 1 had read the book by author 2 at some point and when writing his
> own remebered some concept but couldn't quite remember where it came from.
> I don't think that taking other writers' minor concepts or terminology is
> bad, at any rate. It probably is unhumanly hard to write a book without
> taking absolutely anything from somebody else. Everybody is influenced by
> what they have read before, consciously or subconsciously. Likewise, it is
> unfair to expect that in the future writers will not take anything from the
> WOT. It is too influential of a work in the genre.
>
> Back to the point.
>
> A fairly generic point. Tomas of Crydee picks up the armor of Valheru and
> gets memory flashbacks and gains the skill, magic, and memories of the
> Dragon Lord to some extent. Weak parallel to Mat.
>
> Not generic at all. The plotting of the Tsurani High Council members and
> the general bickering between Tsurani noble families is referred to as 'the
> Great Game' (among other names).
>
> Hadati hillmen are mentioned to have a code of honor in which it gains you
> more honor to touch your opponent (and live) than to kill one. Also, one
> such Hadati hillperson saves a certain Prince's life and then says that
> there's no debt, it is rather he , the hillman, repaying the debt (Prince's
> father died fighting for the Hadati villages against invaders). You know
> who it all looks like.
>
> Now, I am _not_ implying anything or saying that RJ copied this blindly
> Frankly, I don't care a single little bit. Copyright law generally stinks,
> imo). I am simply bringing this literal similarities between the two
> series. And, if you haven't read the Riftwar saga yet, and you don't know
> what to read in anticipation of the WH, read it. It's really good. Strats
> off a bit slowly, but picks up eventually.
>
> O.
I was actually reading magician again last night and notice all of these as well as the fact that the seanchan are very similar to the tsurani… I don't mind though even with these similarities the two worlds and stories are VERY different.