RISING STAR was amazing(no spoilers)

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c...@sim.zipcon.net

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Oct 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/23/97
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Plain and Simple Cronan (cro...@DeathsDoor.com) wrote:
: _Between the Darkness and the Light_ was uneven... _EndGame_ was so
: rushed... But _Rising Star_..... *I* am at a loss for words.

And that makes "Rising Star" all worthwhile, no matter what flaws the
episode may have... =)

On another note: could you repost your detailed list of problems with
Endgame (the numbered list) to the moderated group? I'd love to see some
answers to some of the questions you raise about Mars; I'd noticed them on
a second viewing, but my science isn't that strong so I wasn't about to
complain about it.

Plain and Simple Cronan

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Oct 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/23/97
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wrote


>On another note: could you repost your detailed list of problems with
>Endgame (the numbered list) to the moderated group? I'd love to see some
>answers to some of the questions you raise about Mars; I'd noticed them on
>a second viewing, but my science isn't that strong so I wasn't about to
>complain about it.

I did! If it hasn't shown up then we must wait. I will wait 3 days this time
before complaining *AGAIN* about the mods need to delay my posts

Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?

Anywho: I have learned some interesting things from the mods:

1. JMS is god.
2. Voyager bashing is A OKAY
....

Well thats about it really.

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>
Evil thrives when good men vote for democrats! - Edmund Burke[paraphased]
Get yer ass to http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/wisdom.htm

David Stinson

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Oct 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/23/97
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In article <62obj0$i...@camel21.mindspring.com>, "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
:
:I did! If it hasn't shown up then we must wait. I will wait 3 days this
time
:before complaining *AGAIN* about the mods need to delay my posts

It was there. You forgot to SPOILER PROTECT it. Kindly read the FAQ about
spoiler protection.

--
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Franklin Hummel

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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In article <62obj0$i...@camel21.mindspring.com>,
Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
>Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
>Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?


Cronan, that is a very old and very dead horse which has been
very well beaten in the B5 newsgroups.


-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
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James C. Ellis

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
>
>
> I find it interesting that my posts always appear after I say something.

Ya know, I've encountered the same thing.

Day after day I lurk, looking for any post made by me. Day, after day
I am disappointed. But the moment I write an article to complain about
it - Poof! There it is! I fully expect to return to the newsgroup to see
_this point_ coincidentally arrived.

Wait 'till I catch whoever is responsible for this outrage!

Biff

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[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Cook

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:

(snip)

>But _Rising Star_.....

>Ohhhhhhhh Rising Star

>*I* am at a loss for words.

Cronan at a loss for words? Isn't this one of the signs of the
apocolypse?

Robert M. Cook
co...@sos.net
http://www.sos.net/home/cook/index2.htm


TMB

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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Plain and Simple Cronan wrote in article <62p031$g...@camel15.mindspring.com
>...


>>I find it interesting that my posts always appear after I say something.
>

Guess light switches blow your mind then.
"I flip it up and a light come on somewhere"
Try waiting long enough for it to get through the..., uh, well....them.
You know...THOSE guys.
Anyway, you'll get a response one way or another after a couple of days.
TMB
Of course, you'll want to argue about the length of a couple of days now,
supported by statistical facts of why it is or isn't the same as a few
days.


John & Linda VanSickle

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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Captain Infinity wrote:
>
> In article <62p1ck$g...@camel15.mindspring.com>

> "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote :
>
> >Franklin Hummel wrote

> >>>Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
> >>>Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?
> >>
> >>
> >> Cronan, that is a very old and very dead horse which has been
> >>very well beaten in the B5 newsgroups.
> >
> >I merely pointed it out in passing and a rather lengthy post was thrown out
> >because of it. In fact here it comes now:
>
> <snip>
>
> JMS has stated a number of times that he gets
> annoyed by the LOTR comparison.

Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading the
moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file somewhere?

Regards,
John
--
Ventos vinximus--caelum contigimus. http://www.erols.com/vansickl

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jken...@himail.hcc.com

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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In <34511E...@erols.com>, John & Linda VanSickle <vans...@erols.com> writes:
>Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
>evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading the
>moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file somewhere?

The evidence runs something like this.

Lord a da ringz is, like, a rilly, rilly long story.
Babalon 5 is, like, a rilly, rilly long story.
Lord a da ringz has, like, good guyz 'n' bad guyz.
Babalon 5 has, like, good guyz 'n' bad guyz.
Lord a da ringz has, like, elfs.
Babalon 5 has, like, mimbariez.
Lord a da ringz has, like, dwarfs.
Babalon 5 has, like, narnz.

Gee, dey must be duh same story!

What's _really_ frightening, is that one needs to be of the educated minority
before such drivel as that can even be conceived.

In truth, of course, the only particular work to which B5 has any great
debt is E. E. Smith's "Lensmen" saga, which is the original form of the
"Earthmen and alien allies eventually play the pivotal role in a war
millions of years old between two godlike races" plot -- but "Doc" Smith
pitched it as a fastball, whereas Joe Straczynski's making a knuckleball
of it.

John W. Kennedy - HiServ NA - Team OS/2 - (The OS/2 Hobbit) - TIPA
IBMMAIL: USAHC29S IBMLink: NAAO3IY "Compact is becoming contract;
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Captain Infinity

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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In article <62p1ck$g...@camel15.mindspring.com>
"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote :

>Franklin Hummel wrote
>>>Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
>>>Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?
>>
>>
>> Cronan, that is a very old and very dead horse which has been
>>very well beaten in the B5 newsgroups.
>
>I merely pointed it out in passing and a rather lengthy post was thrown out
>because of it. In fact here it comes now:

<snip>

JMS has stated a number of times that he gets
annoyed by the LOTR comparison.

**
Captain Infinity

Plain and Simple Cronan

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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John & Linda VanSickle wrote


>> >I merely pointed it out in passing and a rather lengthy post was thrown
out
>> >because of it. In fact here it comes now:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> JMS has stated a number of times that he gets
>> annoyed by the LOTR comparison.
>

>Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
>evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading the
>moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file somewhere?


Subject: B5 and the _Lord of the Rings_ model...
From: 4r...@qlink.queensu.ca (Marks Robert B)Date:
1997/02/11
Message-ID: <5dosmv$k...@knot.queensu.ca>Newsgroups:
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
[More Headers]
It occurs to me that B5 is actually following _Lord of the Rings_ quite
closely. We can examine several key events and equate them to parts of
Tolkien's great work...
1. Sheridan's resurrection = Gandalf's resurrection. The only thing is
that this part is out of timing with the books, but...
2. The Shadow War = the War of the Ring. Pretty obvious, including the
way it ends. After all, the War of the Ring ends around 2/3 of the way
through the plot of _Return of the King_. The rest of the book revolves
around claiming the glory and the scouring of the shire...the battle for
Earth, anybody?
3. President Clark = Saruman. Both Saruman and Clark were traitors, both
were in key positions of power, and both last until around the end of the
book. Also, Saruman has a deal with Sauron which he is weasalling his way
out of, just as Clark has a deal with the Shadows he is weasalling his way
out of. Going by the pattern, it is logical that Clark will be killed at
the climax of the series.
4. The passing of the Shadows and the Vorlons = the passing of the Elves
and the destruction of the Orcs. Here, the Vorlons are the Elves, who
passed into the west/outer rim, and the Shadows are the Orcs and Sauron,
who are destroyed or dispersed. The only thing is, the Shadows also flee
to the rim.

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>

THE TRUTH HAS BEEN DELCARED! LIVE IT! KNOW IT! READ IT at
http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/declaration.html

David Stinson

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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In article <62p031$g...@camel15.mindspring.com>, "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
:
:David Stinson wrote

:>:I did! If it hasn't shown up then we must wait. I will wait 3 days this
:>time
:>:before complaining *AGAIN* about the mods need to delay my posts
:>
:>It was there. You forgot to SPOILER PROTECT it. Kindly read the FAQ about
:>spoiler protection.
:
:I find it interesting that my posts always appear after I say something.

Then don't say anything. You'll find they appear anyway...

The Mule

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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jken...@himail.hcc.com wrote:

[...]


> In truth, of course, the only particular work to which B5 has any great
> debt is E. E. Smith's "Lensmen" saga, which is the original form of the
> "Earthmen and alien allies eventually play the pivotal role in a war
> millions of years old between two godlike races" plot -- but "Doc" Smith
> pitched it as a fastball, whereas Joe Straczynski's making a knuckleball
> of it.

Of course if one really wants an inane "B5 is x with the serial numbers
filed off," I suggest reading the Elric Saga by Michael Moorcook.

Both have Lords of Order and Lords of Chaos. Both have the [some number]
who are One. Both have a character named Elric.

(Boy I hope people know what "inane" means or I am in real trouble.)

--
"In fact, the Old Egyptians and the Old Romans would be more alien to
us than most authors' Martians."
- Gardner Dozois

James D Thompson

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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John & Linda VanSickle wrote:

> Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
> evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading
> the moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file
> somewhere?

Most of the evidence is coincidental or a matter of similarities in
form, but the most brazen "borrowing" is the "Eye of Z'Ha'Dum" which was
lifted almost word-for-word from the latter part of the first book.

[oh, and for anyone who is mortally offended by my trollish slandering,
go right ahead and explain the vast differences between the workings
of the "Eyes" of Sauron and the Shadows]

David Thompson

Hiero Bosch

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
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Plain and Simple Cronan wrote in message
<62obj0$i...@camel21.mindspring.com>...

>Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
>Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?
>

>Anywho: I have learned some interesting things from the mods:
>
>1. JMS is god.
>2. Voyager bashing is A OKAY


Yeah, posts there can have nothing to do with B5, as long as they bash
Voyager. I sense a collective insecurity over there.

Don't worry, I've sent in three this week and none of them have been
accepted. Jay Denebeim is God, I say.

Gharlane of Eddore

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Oct 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/24/97
to

In <62obj0$i...@camel21.mindspring.com>,

Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
> Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
> Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?
>

In <EIJA...@world.std.com>


hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) writes:
>
> Cronan, that is a very old and very dead horse which has been
> very well beaten in the B5 newsgroups.
>


To quote JMS on the subject:

"I didn't go without sleep for five years and suffer all this hassle,
just to make a TV version of 'THE LORD OF THE RINGS' with the serial
numbers filed off."

( Well, actually, he used a much more pungent word than "hassle." )

I find it hugely amusing that one of the formal academic papers being
presented the University of York B5/SF convocation later this fall
is titled "HOBBITS IN SPACE," and deals with what the perpetrator
views as derivation of B5 from JRRT's work. ( Said writer should
read a few of Joseph Campbell's books on mythic archetypes and
try to learn a bit more about universality of motif and plot
before lecturing in public! *grin* After all, if B-5 is derived
from JRRT, then DS9 is a *third*-hand derivation....)

David Stinson

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
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In article <345100...@SPAMMOwco.com>,
Robert Holland <rhol...@SPAMMOwco.com> wrote:
:Franklin Hummel wrote:
:>
:> In article <62obj0$i...@camel21.mindspring.com>,

:> Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
:> >
:> >Did I forget to mention that a post was rejected simply because I said the
:> >Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?
:>
:>
:> Cronan, that is a very old and very dead horse which has been

:> very well beaten in the B5 newsgroups.
:
:And yet the tv show continues to weigh in on the side of LOTR
:ripoff. Last night we saw Frodo return to the shire and set
:things right.
:


And that never happened in myth (let's see - Ulysses, Odysseus, etc.) before
it was written up in LOTR, did it, Robert???


--
David A. Stinson Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves/index.html
E-Mail: dsti...@ix.netcomz.com da...@procomz.com dast...@aolz.com
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REMOVE Z FROM ADDRESS IN POST TO EMAIL.

David Stinson

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
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In article <62r8ot$2...@camel20.mindspring.com>,

"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
LOTR similarities snipped


Cronan,

Go out and pick up a copy of Joseph Campbell's books on myth & legend.

Lord of the Rings is based on the Norse Eddas, which are part of the
works that Campbell describes in his "heroic journey" discussions.

JMS has said that he does use Campbell's work as a basis for some of his
ideas.

In other words, JMS wrote a story incorporating the arc and background of
the "heroic journey", as did Tolkien.

ITs not a case of one being based on the other, but of both being based on
similar principles. Greek mythology and Sumerian/Babylonian mythology (both of
which have a lot of references in B5 stories) predate Lord of the Rings by a
few thousand years.

David M. Sueme

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
to

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:22:10 -0400, "Plain and Simple Cronan"
<cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:

I said the
>Shadow WAr beared an uncanny resemblence to the Lord of the Rings?

YOu said this? For a while there I thought you were clever and
original. And I think I remember alluding to such publicly. Now I am
embarrassed.

LOR <> B5 has been beaten to death Cronan. WHere the HEll WEre YOu -
TYping CLass?

DAve


John & Linda VanSickle

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
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jken...@himail.hcc.com wrote:
>
> In <34511E...@erols.com>, John & Linda VanSickle <vans...@erols.com> writes:
> >Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
> >evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading the
> >moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file somewhere?
>
> The evidence runs something like this.
>
> Lord a da ringz is, like, a rilly, rilly long story.
> Babalon 5 is, like, a rilly, rilly long story.
> Lord a da ringz has, like, good guyz 'n' bad guyz.
> Babalon 5 has, like, good guyz 'n' bad guyz.
> Lord a da ringz has, like, elfs.
> Babalon 5 has, like, mimbariez.
> Lord a da ringz has, like, dwarfs.
> Babalon 5 has, like, narnz.
>
> Gee, dey must be duh same story!

The American Public School system strikes again.

> In truth, of course, the only particular work to which B5 has any great
> debt is E. E. Smith's "Lensmen" saga, which is the original form of the
> "Earthmen and alien allies eventually play the pivotal role in a war

> millions of years old between two godlike races" plot...

Now I HAVE to go read it.

--
Ventos vinximus--caelum contigimus. http://www.erols.com/vansickl

spambot bait: John_d...@bc.sympatico.ca pze...@hotmail.com
qbe...@hotmail.com ph...@wwems.com pics...@picsmallbiz.com
extp...@mykabot.net the...@webjetters.com

John & Linda VanSickle

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
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Simply Stupid Cronan wrote:
>
> John & Linda VanSickle wrote
> >
> >Having both read LoTR and watched B5, I would greatly like to know the
> >evidence upon which belief in a similarity exists. I wasn't reading the
> >moderated group when the horse was killed. Is there a FAQ file somewhere?
>
> Subject: B5 and the _Lord of the Rings_ model...
> From: 4r...@qlink.queensu.ca (Marks Robert B)Date:
> 1997/02/11
> Message-ID: <5dosmv$k...@knot.queensu.ca>Newsgroups:
> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
> [More Headers]
> It occurs to me that B5 is actually following _Lord of the Rings_ quite
> closely. We can examine several key events and equate them to parts of
> Tolkien's great work...
> 1. Sheridan's resurrection = Gandalf's resurrection.

Except that Sheridan != Gandalf. The two characters are not even remotely
stimilar. One of them isn't even a human being, for crying out loud.

> 2. The Shadow War = the War of the Ring.

Not!

> Pretty obvious,

To someone who smokes a lot of dope.

> including the way it ends.

The War of the Ring was simple imperialism, aggressor vs. defender, and
ended with the destruction of a single artifact, causing the aggressor to
be unable to continue operations.

The Shadow War was a war by belligerents who were not really interested
in exterminating each other, who finally were talked out of continuing
the war when the middlemen decided that they weren't going to play
anymore.

The War of the Ring always appeared to be exactly what it was. The
Shadow War turned out to be something utterly different from what it was
thought to be.

The War of the Ring was a two-sided affair, from the stabbing of Frodo
under Weathertop to the arrowing of Grima in the Shire.

The Shadow War was a three-way affair at specific points in the tale.

> After all, the War of the Ring ends around 2/3 of the way
> through the plot of _Return of the King_.

Which is NOT the 2/3 point of LoTR. Learn some math, eh?

> The rest of the book revolves around claiming the glory and the scouring
> of the shire...the battle for Earth, anybody?

Except that the Scouring of the Shire ends with everything being peaches
and cream and lots of blond children being born. Knowing JMS' aversion for
children of any color hair, the ending of B5 will probably be far less
pleasant.

> 3. President Clark = Saruman. Both Saruman and Clark were traitors, both
> were in key positions of power, and both last until around the end of the
> book.

Clark was never part of the Army of Light. Ergo, Clark != Saruman

> Also, Saruman has a deal with Sauron which he is weaseling his way
> out of, just as Clark has a deal with the Shadows he is weaseling his way
> out of.

Just where was Clark trying to weasel his way out of the Shadow alliance?

> Going by the pattern, it is logical that Clark will be killed at
> the climax of the series.

Yah, but the timing (which is your Precious for some points), is way
off here. In LoTR, Saruman's defeat precedes his demise by a long period
of time, during which he causes much mischief elsewhere. Clark's demise
is at the moment of his defeat, and the post-mortem mischief he hoped to
inflict was averted (and a pointless lass-minute scare which either should
have been allowed to do something or have been cut entirely). Also, the
scouring of the Shire was an uprising of the people lorded over by Saruman.
The overthrow of Clark was not a popular uprising.

> 4. The passing of the Shadows and the Vorlons = the passing of the Elves
> and the destruction of the Orcs. Here, the Vorlons are the Elves, who
> passed into the west/outer rim, and the Shadows are the Orcs and Sauron,
> who are destroyed or dispersed. The only thing is, the Shadows also flee
> to the rim.

Except that the War of the Ring was not about whether the humans would join
the Orcs or the Elves, but over other matter entirely.

The closest thing to Vorlons in LotR are the Valar, who aside from the
Istari (a measly three individuals) take no part in the conflict
whatsoever.

The closest thing to Elves in B5 are the Minbari, who of course DON'T
depart the scene, and the Shadow allies are neither destroyed nor
dispersed at the end of the Shadow War.

Sheesh. I'm arguing about alleged similarities between two works of
fiction. I oughta be an English Lit professor.

Regards,
John

Plain and Simple Cronan

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
to

David M. Sueme


>YOu said this? For a while there I thought you were clever and
>original. And I think I remember alluding to such publicly. Now I am
>embarrassed.

Hey! I only mentioned it in passing! It wasn't the primary focus of my post.

>LOR <> B5 has been beaten to death Cronan. WHere the HEll WEre YOu -
>TYping CLass?

YUp

Plain and Simple Cronan

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
to

Theron Fuller wrote


>It's still Lord of the Rings with the serial numbers badly filed off.
>
>And it looks like season 5 is going to be "Lensmen" with the serial numbers
>badly filed off.

I didn't read LOTR until I was told B5 was a rip off there of. Didn't care
for it myself. I don't really like fantasy. Now I hear alot of refernces to
E. E. Smith's "Lensmen" and I would like to read it. Unfortunately I can't
find a copy. Is it that far out of print?

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>

Everyone tells you that masturbation is healthy.. until you do
it in front of them -Emo Williams
http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/

Theron Fuller

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Oct 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/25/97
to

David Stinson wrote in message <62sq8n$o...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>...
>In article <62r8ot$2...@camel20.mindspring.com>,


> "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:

>LOTR similarities snipped
>
>
>Cronan,
>
>Go out and pick up a copy of Joseph Campbell's books on myth & legend.
>
>Lord of the Rings is based on the Norse Eddas, which are part of the
>works that Campbell describes in his "heroic journey" discussions.
>
>JMS has said that he does use Campbell's work as a basis for some of his
>ideas.
>
>In other words, JMS wrote a story incorporating the arc and background of
>the "heroic journey", as did Tolkien.
>
>ITs not a case of one being based on the other, but of both being based on
>similar principles. Greek mythology and Sumerian/Babylonian mythology (both
of
>which have a lot of references in B5 stories) predate Lord of the Rings by
a
>few thousand years.

It's still Lord of the Rings with the serial numbers badly filed off.

And it looks like season 5 is going to be "Lensmen" with the serial numbers
badly filed off.

Regards,
Theron Fuller

8paper

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

How do children like you call yourself sf fans when you have NO knowledge
of Classic sf works like the Lensmen
series? I suppose you've never read the Foundation books or Stranger in a
Strange Land either.The idea that
people like you are "what the world is coming to" is more frightening than
any work of fiction.


Klyfix

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

In article <01bce1c6$987050$5820...@8paper.flash.net>, "8paper"
<8pa...@flash.net> writes:

I don't think there's a catechism for SF Fandom that requires one to
have read all the major SF works from H.G. Wells onward in order to
qualify. I've not read anything from Doc Smith myself, but I have read the
original Foundation Trilogy and Stranger in a Strange Land and a goody
portion of stuff from other "classic" SF writers. Still, the world of SF is
bigger than it was; as Asimov (if memory serves me correctly) pointed out
that back in the 30s and 40s one could read all the SF that was being
produced, but more recently that became impossible. We end up reading and
watching what we like or think we would like, as opposed to attempting to
read everything that has ever been produced. We're still "fans"

V.S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...

David Stinson

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

In article <62uf46$u...@camel15.mindspring.com>,

"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
:
:Theron Fuller wrote
:
:
:>It's still Lord of the Rings with the serial numbers badly filed off.

:>
:>And it looks like season 5 is going to be "Lensmen" with the serial numbers
:>badly filed off.
:
:I didn't read LOTR until I was told B5 was a rip off there of. Didn't care

:for it myself. I don't really like fantasy. Now I hear alot of refernces to
:E. E. Smith's "Lensmen" and I would like to read it. Unfortunately I can't
:find a copy. Is it that far out of print?
:

You ever thought of trying a library???

Or any good used book store.

Eoghann Irving

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

On 25 Oct 1997 11:15:09 -0600, Phil Fraering wrote about Re: B5 and the LOTR(was Re: Things I have learned from the Moderators):

> dsti...@ix.netcom.com (David Stinson) writes:
>
> >ITs not a case of one being based on the other, but of both being
> based on >similar principles. Greek mythology and Sumerian/Babylonian
> mythology (both of >which have a lot of references in B5 stories)
> predate Lord of the Rings by a >few thousand years.
>
> Yes; I think I once actually worked out that Vorlons = Hittites
> (because of Iron), Minbari = Persians, Narn = Israelites, Centauri =
> Sumerians...

There are many analogies that can be drawn between B5 and other
historical or fictional things. thats because like most authors JMS
draws from his experiences. Those experiences including reading
fiction and history. I'd say that was a good thing, not a bad
one.


--
Have fun

Eoghann

http://www.thenet.co.uk/~eoghann/sflist.html
Moderator Fantasy & Science Fiction mailing list

Theron Fuller

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

Gene Breshears wrote in message <87785670...@moon.aa.net>...


>>I didn't read LOTR until I was told B5 was a rip off there of. Didn't care
>>for it myself. I don't really like fantasy.
>

>Then why are you watching Babylon 5 ? I love the show, have a great
>admiration for JMS and all the work he's done, but Bab 5 isn't Science
>Fiction... it's Epic Fantasy with lots of SF trappings.
>
>I wouldn't say the Bab5 is a "rip-off" of LOTR, rather that JMS, and
>h'e admitted this more than once, draws upon some of the same cultural
>sources the J.R.R. Tolkien (and many other authors) did for his work.
>Certain archetypes and thematic reasonances can be found.


It's still Lord of the Rings with the serial numbers badly filed off. Joe
Straczynski has gone from flaming at any suggestion of similarities between
Lord of the Rings and Babylon 5 to "admitting that he draws on some of the
same cultural sources...J.R.R. Tolkien...did for his work."

Regards,
Theron Fuller

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

David Stinson wrote


>You ever thought of trying a library???

Tried it.

>Or any good used book store.

Tried it.

Phil Fraering

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

"Eoghann Irving" <eog...@thenet.co.uk> writes:

> There are many analogies that can be drawn between B5 and other
> historical or fictional things. thats because like most authors JMS
> draws from his experiences. Those experiences including reading
> fiction and history. I'd say that was a good thing, not a bad
> one.

Well, silly old me had decided to take JMS at his word and look
for analogies in the ancient middle east, f'instance in and
around a city-state called _Babylon_.

Don't you think that's a pretty big hint?

--
Phil Fraering "And don't think it hasn't been a little
p...@globalreach.net slice of heaven,
/Will work for *tape*/ because it hasn't!"
+ Send me spam, and I'll send you termcap +

Gene Breshears

unread,
Oct 26, 1997, 2:00:00 AM10/26/97
to

>I didn't read LOTR until I was told B5 was a rip off there of. Didn't care
>for it myself. I don't really like fantasy.

Then why are you watching Babylon 5 ? I love the show, have a great
admiration for JMS and all the work he's done, but Bab 5 isn't Science
Fiction... it's Epic Fantasy with lots of SF trappings.

I wouldn't say the Bab5 is a "rip-off" of LOTR, rather that JMS, and
h'e admitted this more than once, draws upon some of the same cultural
sources the J.R.R. Tolkien (and many other authors) did for his work.
Certain archetypes and thematic reasonances can be found.


*******************************************************************
* "Humankind is poised midway * Gene Breshears *
* between the gods and the beasts." * tai...@aa.net *
* --Plotinus * (just my opinion) *
*******************************************************************


Shin Chyang Yu

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

In article <62h7me$q...@camel18.mindspring.com>,

Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
>But _Rising Star_.....
>
>Ohhhhhhhh Rising Star
>
>*I* am at a loss for words.
>
Because it is good or bad? I didn't like it very much. Some of
the plot twists doesn't make sense to me.

John Yu

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

Shin Chyang Yu wrote


>Because it is good or bad? I didn't like it very much. Some of
>the plot twists doesn't make sense to me.

Good. I rather liked. Made up for EndGame

David DeRubeis

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

David Stinson wrote:
>
>
> You ever thought of trying a library???
>
> Or any good used book store.
>


Be fair, David. I've seen nothing by Doc Smith in the Houston Public
Library, and it took me about a year to track down the whole Lensman
series, before a couple of people decided to sell 2 sets at roughly the
same time. It's been out of print for quite a while, yet is still
fairly popular.

David

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

J. Potts wrote
>Libraries have things called inter-library loans. You ought to
>try it sometime.

Wow! I never heard of that before. Tell me more about the mazing owrld of
the Library... the Wake County Public Library does not have a copy.


>Remember, he said *good* ones. Besides, since the books are so popular,
>someone else may have already grabbed them up. You may have to make more
>than one trip. Better yet, ask the store to give you a heads up if they
>get a copy of the books in.

Again you startle me with your informative prattle. Please do tell me more
about this fabulous world of books.....

>If you check Gharlane's Lensman webpage (*the* place to find about all
>things Lensman):
>
>http://www.peterzale.com/now.html
>
>I believe a new edition of the books are coming or have come out.

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>

We are willing enough to praise freedom when she is safely tucked away
in the past and cannot be a nuisance. In the present, amidst dangers
whose outcome we cannot foresee, we get nervous about her, and admit
censorship. - E.M. Forster http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/wisdom.htm

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

William December Starr wrote
>Oh, try turning down your "Snobbishness" dial. There's no requirement
>that one have read the bad (Lensmen), boring (Foundation) or just
>plain "Huh? What the heck was the point of all that?" (Stranger)
>"classic" sf of the past in order to enjoy, appreciate or comment upon
>the sf of the present. Go back to your Hugo Gernsback Appreciation
>Society.

I liked the first 3 Foundation Books.

Robert Holland

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

You're a sucker for closure.

We got tons of exposition in Rising Star, which rather ruined
the mood.

And the earth president was a cartoonish display of political
maneuvering.

--RH

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

Robert Holland wrote


>> Good. I rather liked. Made up for EndGame
>
>You're a sucker for closure.

<<looks at feet>>

You got Bob, you got me. I am. After years of being left hanging in ST I
guess that even this closure was good enough to satisfy.

>We got tons of exposition in Rising Star, which rather ruined
>the mood.

I don't think so. The exposition was handled much more effectively in this
episode than in EndGame....

>And the earth president was a cartoonish display of political
>maneuvering.

Raher liked her myself. Thought her accent was horrible but that cna be
forgiven


Gharlane of Eddore

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

David Stinson wrote:
>
> You ever thought of trying a library???
> Or any good used book store.
>

In <3454CEC8...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu>


David DeRubeis <deru...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu> writes:
>
> Be fair, David. I've seen nothing by Doc Smith in the Houston Public
> Library, and it took me about a year to track down the whole Lensman
> series, before a couple of people decided to sell 2 sets at roughly the
> same time. It's been out of print for quite a while, yet is still
> fairly popular.
>


The most recent mass-market paperback printing of the "LENSMAN" books
in the U.S. was nearly 15 years ago ("Berkeley Books") and used-book
stores have begun to run a bit dry on the material.

Mike Walsh's "OLD EARTH BOOKS" got a contract to do trade-paperback
reprints (high-quality acid-free paper, staunch covers) of the books
last year, and Walsh expected to have the first ones out in January.

Due to a number of situations I won't waste space by documenting here,
Walsh' delivery date for the first books slipped about 9-10 months,
and "TRIPLANETARY" and "FIRST LENSMAN" didn't make it to the bindery
until a few weeks ago.
On the plus side, Barnes & Noble committed for a good many copies, so
the size of Walsh' initial print run has been more than doubled from
his initial intent. Mike's price is about $15/book, or $100 for the
boxed set.

Further, "Ripping Communications" in the U.K. got a reprint contract,
and reportedly has all six out and available as of summer '97.
(I haven't seen any of these, can't speak to quality or even existence,
but they're well reported by folks on the east side of the Atlantic.
Ripping's base retail price appears to be about L5.99 per book.)

What details I have on the subject are listed in my "LENSMAN" Web Page,
which you can find at


http://168.150.253.1/~zlensman/lensfaq.html


....see Section SIX, "Where To Find The Books."


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| __ __ |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. / | / \ |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, -|---+----+- |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, | | | |
| And invocations of equations. |_/ \__/ |
| |
| These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. |
| |
| .....including how to spell "gray." +\../- |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gharlane of Eddore

unread,
Oct 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/27/97
to

David Stinson wrote:
>
> You ever thought of trying a library???
> Or any good used book store.
>

In <3454CEC8...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu>
David DeRubeis <deru...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu> writes:
>
> Be fair, David. I've seen nothing by Doc Smith in the Houston Public
> Library, and it took me about a year to track down the whole Lensman
> series, before a couple of people decided to sell 2 sets at roughly the
> same time. It's been out of print for quite a while, yet is still
> fairly popular.
>


The most recent mass-market paperback printing of the "LENSMAN" books
in the U.S. was nearly 15 years ago ("Berkeley Books") and used-book

stores have begun to run a bit dry on the material; as pointed out
above, you *can* find copies, but sometimes you have to be patient.

In 1996, Mike Walsh's "OLD EARTH BOOKS" got a contract to do


trade-paperback reprints (high-quality acid-free paper, staunch

covers), and Walsh expected to have the first ones out in January.

Due to a number of situations I won't waste space by documenting here,

( we won't mention Walsh' abduction by Space Aliens and his resulting
tendency to emit beeping noises and jam nearby computers; or his
having been missing for at least five consecutive full moons while
nearby ranchers and farmers reported major livestock depredations by
some sort of clever predator; or Walsh' lengthy stay in Monaco
during a certain notorious divorce trial involving royalty, wherein
Walsh was named as a co-respondent; or the two months he spent in
the psycho ward at Arkham Asylum after publicly insisting he was
"Batman" and trying to prove it by kidnapping Kim Basinger....)


Walsh' delivery date for the first books slipped about 9-10 months,
and "TRIPLANETARY" and "FIRST LENSMAN" didn't make it to the bindery
until a few weeks ago.
On the plus side, Barnes & Noble committed for a good many copies, so
the size of Walsh' initial print run has been more than doubled from
his initial intent. Mike's price is about $15/book, or $100 for the
boxed set.

Further, "Ripping Communications" in the U.K. got a reprint contract,
and reportedly has all six out and available as of summer '97.
(I haven't seen any of these, can't speak to quality or even existence,
but they're well reported by folks on the east side of the Atlantic.

Ripping's base retail price appears to be about L5.99 per book, but
we haven't been advised of any U.S. availability at this time.)

What details are available on the subject are listed in the "LENSMAN"

8paper

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

The simple fact that your reaction to Stranger is "huh"
tells me all I need to know about you. Try reading the unabriged version of
Stranger. It is far easier to understand than the story as originaly
published.

People who cannot or do not learn from the past are unable to develop a
sense of continuity in the present and will become hopelessly lost in the
ever more rapidly changing future.

Perhaps you would do me the courtesy of posting a list of what you would
consider "classic" sf.


Captain Infinity

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In article <345553...@SPAMMOwco.com>
Robert Holland wrote :

>And the earth president was a cartoonish display of political
>maneuvering.

I liked when they used her voice for the pop-up-bomb-in-the-box that
blew up the Martian Mafia. That made me laff.

Actually, just the idea of a Martian Mafia made me laff.

In fact, the *phrase* "Martian Mafia" makes me laff.

**
Captain Infinity
....that Earth creature makes me so ANGRY!
Now I'll have to make *more* Martians!

Plain and Simple Cronan

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

Captain Infinity wrote


>I liked when they used her voice for the pop-up-bomb-in-the-box that
>blew up the Martian Mafia. That made me laff.
>
>Actually, just the idea of a Martian Mafia made me laff.
>
>In fact, the *phrase* "Martian Mafia" makes me laff.

Mind if I call you Capt. Forever?

Good

What's amazing about the Martian Mafia is that they are still fat guys with
pseudo-Italian accents just like they are in every other third rate
representation of organized crime(no matter the time period).

Maybe they gotta go to the Old School like the general?

Or maybe they are grown in little vats?

What do you suppose the Yakuza, another fall back in bad movies that
replaces the need for icky things like character development, are up to?

Maybe they are Proxima?

Klyfix

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In article <01bce355$9a3f5b60$cc1f...@8paper.flash.net>, "8paper"
<8pa...@flash.net> writes:

>
>People who cannot or do not learn from the past are unable to develop a
>sense of continuity in the present and will become hopelessly lost in the
>ever more rapidly changing future.
>

Yesss....but somehow I suspect that having a complete knowledge of the
classic works of SF alone is what will be need to adapt to the future.
Heck, I'll dare say that utter ignorance of all SF but a good knowledge of
history may leave someone well prepared for the future. Sure, the
Foundation Trilogy and _Stranger in a Strange Land_ are great stories, but
not having read them or the "Lensmen" stories isn't going to leave somebody
utterly helpless to face the Future. Let's get real here. :)

Captain Infinity

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In article <345664e9...@snews.zippo.com>
morp...@super.zippo.com (Morpheus) wrote :

>On 27 Oct 1997 16:31:15 GMT, nav...@pubs35b.ih.lucent.com (J. Potts)
>wrote:


>>If you check Gharlane's Lensman webpage (*the* place to find about all
>>things Lensman):
>>
>>http://www.peterzale.com/now.html
>

>What's the value of pi in your universe?
>
>Not that that's not an interesting URL, but it's not Gharlane's.
>
>http://168.150.253.1/~zlensman/lensfaq.html
>

You're both crazy. The URL you want is:
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~bs4cmc/knacker.html


**
Captain Infinity

Theron Fuller

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

Phil Fraering wrote in message
<87zpnwq...@lungold.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>...


>"Eoghann Irving" <eog...@thenet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> There are many analogies that can be drawn between B5 and other
>> historical or fictional things. thats because like most authors JMS
>> draws from his experiences. Those experiences including reading
>> fiction and history. I'd say that was a good thing, not a bad
>> one.
>
>Well, silly old me had decided to take JMS at his word and look
>for analogies in the ancient middle east, f'instance in and
>around a city-state called _Babylon_.
>
>Don't you think that's a pretty big hint?


Silly old us for taking Joe Straczynski's cryptic comments about the
relationship of the Babylon 5 universe to the historical Babylon and doing
all sorts of fruitless historical research to find meaningful parallels,
when all we really had to do was read Lord of the Rings, ignore Joe
Straczynski's comments about "serial numbers filed off,"
and believe the conclusions we drew.

Now that the original "5-year arc" story has been mostly told, why doesn't
someone ask Joe Straczynski to expand a little on His historical references?
For example, just what common historical and mythological sources did He
and Tolkien use? And how does He know so much about Tolkien's sources?

Regards,
Theron Fuller

Maria Ana Montalvo

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In article <633q7t$g...@camel18.mindspring.com>,

Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
>Raher liked her myself. Thought her accent was horrible but that cna be
>forgiven

Especially since that's her natural accent....

Maria

J. Potts

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

On 27 Oct 1997 16:31:15 GMT, nav...@pubs35b.ih.lucent.com (J. Potts)
wrote:
>If you check Gharlane's Lensman webpage (*the* place to find about all
>things Lensman):
>
>http://www.peterzale.com/now.html

In article <345664e9...@snews.zippo.com>,


Morpheus <morp...@super.zippo.com> wrote:
>What's the value of pi in your universe?
>
>Not that that's not an interesting URL, but it's not Gharlane's.
>
>http://168.150.253.1/~zlensman/lensfaq.html


Oh, bother. Of *course* that's the correct URL. This silly mouse
and it's swipe and dump, sometimes it just gets a mind of its own.

Next thing you know, Gharlane will be offering to fix *my* nutrient
feeds.


--
JRP
"BLONDE? Blonde? You didn't TELL me you were a blonde....."
--Gharlane of Eddore


J. Potts

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In article <630c8o$4...@news2.jic.com>,

Theron Fuller <tfu...@moon.jic.com> wrote:
>It's still Lord of the Rings with the serial numbers badly filed off. Joe
>Straczynski has gone from flaming at any suggestion of similarities between
>Lord of the Rings and Babylon 5 to "admitting that he draws on some of the
>same cultural sources...J.R.R. Tolkien...did for his work."

In article <6334bd$a...@access2.digex.net>,
Jonathan Blum <jb...@access2.digex.net> wrote:
>Whoa, I think the ACCURACY-O-METER just flatlined on that one.
>
>In fact, JMS said way back when the Rangers were first introduced that the
>name was a deliberate tip of the hat to Tolkien; he was happy to admit to
>the similarities which he did intend, while denying that he'd intended the
>ones which he hadn't.

Bzzzzzzt! Wrong answer. Thank you for playing. Here is, in fact, the
basis for the name Rangers:

From: strac...@genie.geis.com
Subject: The Coming Of Shadows - **SPOI
Date: 2 Feb 1995 16:36:51 -0500
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, VA

Re: the name Rangers...hey, when you grow up watching The Lone
Ranger, and spend lots of time researching the Texas Rangers when you
work (briefly) on Walker...certain names spring unbidden.

jms

When someone tried making the comparison of B4 to LoTR, JMS responded with:


From: strac...@genie.geis.com
Date: 15 Nov 1994 19:56:00 -0500
Subject: RE: B5 & Tolkien

The only problem with this discussion is that it begins on the
assumption that there is *any* kind of one-to-one correlation between
B5 characters and LoTR characters. There isn't. There are, however,
many aspects that they share in that they both are moving toward creating
myth of a sort; if you've read Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces,"
you know that there are some constants that work throughout mythic-based
fiction. The Foundation books, the Lensman books, Childhood's End, all
worked on a kind of myth-structure; so does B5 (at least in theory; how
well it actually succeeds at that task will have to be seen with time).

jms


Note the date. JMS has *always* maintained that B5 is using some of the
same mythic ideas that are found in other great works. So you see? This
discussion has been hased and rehashed for the last three years. It's no
wonder we're getting tired of seeing it.

James C. Ellis

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

Theron Fuller wrote:
>

<Yet Another B5 = LOTR claim snipped. This must be Theron's
Rant-of-the-Month (TM). Ah, well at least he's still not on that
rec.arts.denebheim stuff>

>
> Now that the original "5-year arc" story has been mostly told, why doesn't
> someone ask Joe Straczynski to expand a little on His historical references?
> For example, just what common historical and mythological sources did He
> and Tolkien use?

That's actually not a bad idea.

> And how does He know so much about Tolkien's sources?

Well, I dunno. Perhaps any of the dozens of dissertations which
investigate the roots of LOTR, many of which have been released in book
form?

Biff

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------

8paper

unread,
Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

Thanks for the reading list. We share at least some of the same taste. Some
of the books on your list I've read but don't care for, I.e. Clarke has
never been one of mt personal favs.

The original post about the Lensman books was designed to respond to a 17
year old who had opined that he hadn't read the Lensman books or The Lord
of the Rings, but yet went on and on about how good B5 and Star Trek DS9
were. I have encountered some
"children" (people under 30) who, when speaking about
Star Trek for instance, say silly things like "you mean there was a TV show
before the movies" Although sf
books become dated quickly (a trend that seems even to be even more true
about sftv) IMHO many of them still make fine reading especially if one
takes the time to
investigate the accepted scientific theories of the time it was written
that the book may be based on. My point was simply that much of current sf
is written by people
who grew up reading some of these books I arbitrarily
labeled as "classics". I think that knowing what some of
these folks influences/anticedents can be of great help in understanding or
decerning, if you will, why these writers use the themes and plot devices
they use.

While on the subject of personal "classics" I would add;

1984 by George Orwell
(also Animal Farm)

Brave New World by Huxley

A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter Miller

Farenhiet 451 by Ray Bradbury

most Heinlein, some of my favs;

I Will Fear No Evil

The Past Through Tommorow (the future history)

Time Enough For Love
( I think LL may be my all time fav fiction hero)

Job (a very funny book)

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

I've wasted enough bandwidth pontificating my opinions
Thanks for sharing your readind list w/ me.

Eric Berge

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Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

> > Now that the original "5-year arc" story has been mostly told, why doesn't
> > someone ask Joe Straczynski to expand a little on His historical
> > references?
> > For example, just what common historical and mythological sources did He
> > and Tolkien use?
>
> That's actually not a bad idea.
>
> > And how does He know so much about Tolkien's sources?
>
> Well, I dunno. Perhaps any of the dozens of dissertations which
> investigate the roots of LOTR, many of which have been released in book
> form?

Pfft. Give me a break - Almost all of that stuff is in print, and a great
deal of it is on the web.

Start with Snorri Sturluson's "Prose Edda". You will immediately note the
lists of names of Dwarves and Elves which Tolkien copied wholesale for his
book.

Eric Berge
(Remove underscore for valid address)


John & Linda VanSickle

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Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
>
> To quote JMS on the subject:
>
> "I didn't go without sleep for five years and suffer all this hassle,
> just to make a TV version of 'THE LORD OF THE RINGS' with the serial
> numbers filed off."
>
> ( Well, actually, he used a much more pungent word than "hassle." )
>
> I find it hugely amusing that one of the formal academic papers being
> presented the University of York B5/SF convocation later this fall
> is titled "HOBBITS IN SPACE," and deals with what the perpetrator
> views as derivation of B5 from JRRT's work. ( Said writer should
> read a few of Joseph Campbell's books on mythic archetypes and
> try to learn a bit more about universality of motif and plot
> before lecturing in public! *grin* After all, if B-5 is derived
> from JRRT, then DS9 is a *third*-hand derivation....)

I submit that anyone doing an academic paper on a B5/LoTR comparison,
without having read Campbell, has certainly NOT done his/her/its
homework.

Regards,
John
--
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Plain and Simple Cronan

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Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

John & Linda VanSickle wrote

>If what you posted the other day are the "huge similarities," then
>JMS is vindicated.

nah. Those were just the quickly dredged up words of another. Several
others, including Bobby Boy Holland, have psoted extensive comparisons of
the happenings in Into the Fire.....

Eric Berge

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Oct 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/28/97
to

In Article<01bce3c7$8dd561e0$4d1f...@8paper.flash.net>, <8pa...@flash.net>
writes:

> The original post about the Lensman books was designed to respond to a 17
> year old who had opined that he hadn't read the Lensman books or The Lord
> of the Rings, but yet went on and on about how good B5 and Star Trek DS9
> were. I have encountered some "children" (people under 30) who, when
> speaking about Star Trek for instance, say silly things like "you mean there
> was a TV show before the movies" Although sf books become dated quickly (a
> trend that seems even to be even more true about sftv) IMHO many of them
> still make fine reading especially if one takes the time to
> investigate the accepted scientific theories of the time it was written
> that the book may be based on. My point was simply that much of current sf
> is written by people who grew up reading some of these books I arbitrarily
> labeled as "classics". I think that knowing what some of these folks
> influences/anticedents can be of great help in understanding or
> decerning, if you will, why these writers use the themes and plot devices
> they use.

(SNIP PASSABLE LIST OF INTRODUCTORY GOOD S/F)

If you really want a good intro to classic S/F (which, in my mind, still
refers to the 40s and 50s), read Healy & McComas's anthology, "Adventures
in Time and Space", which has to have been one of the most influential books
in science fiction for the twenty five years between 1945 and 1970.

It goes in and out of print periodically; I think the Science Fiction Book
Club has it currently.

And for a good classic space station book, the "Venus Equilateral" stories,
by George O. Smith.

Eric Berge
(remove the _ for correct address)


The Man

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Oct 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/29/97
to

Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
> >And the earth president was a cartoonish display of political
> >maneuvering.
>
> Raher liked her myself. Thought her accent was horrible but that cna be
> forgiven

Well, as one of my roommates said... "She made me want to salute."

--
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jken...@himail.hcc.com

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Oct 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/29/97
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In <345771ea...@snews.zippo.com>, morp...@super.zippo.com (Morpheus) writes:
>P.P.S. "Pinky and the Brain" just hasn't been the same since I
>discovered that the Brain claimed CRTs emitted photons at the screen.
>Well, at least they had the basics of emitted particles striking the
>phosphors correct.

Errr.... All the CRT's I know _do_ emit photons at the screen. Wouldn't
be much use otherwise.

John W. Kennedy - HiServ NA - Team OS/2 - (The OS/2 Hobbit) - TIPA
IBMMAIL: USAHC29S IBMLink: NAAO3IY "Compact is becoming contract;
CompuServe: 75136,1413 Prodigy: MTMV04A Man only earns and pays."
X.400: US Telemail Hoechst AOL: WillmoreRv -- Charles Williams


Eric Berge

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Oct 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/29/97
to

In Article<638ldr$9...@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>, <pau...@dtc.net> writes:
> From: pau...@dtc.net (Paul E. Jamison, Esq.)

> And one I'd bet very few have heard of: "E for Effort" by T. L.
> Sherred.

I've read that.

Good story.

Eric Berge
(remove the _ for address)


Paul E. Jamison, Esq.

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Oct 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/30/97
to

On Tue, 28 Oct 97 23:20:48 , a little light bulb went on over the head
of Eric Berge (Eric Berge <e_db...@ibm.net>), and he wrote thus and
so to rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5:

>If you really want a good intro to classic S/F (which, in my mind, still
>refers to the 40s and 50s), read Healy & McComas's anthology, "Adventures
>in Time and Space", which has to have been one of the most influential books
>in science fiction for the twenty five years between 1945 and 1970.

Agreed. I would also recommend "Treasury of Great Science Fiction"
ed. by Tony Boucher. And any of several anthologies edited by Groff
Conklin. I couldn't vouch for the availabiliy, but that's what used
bookstores and dealers' rooms at conventions are for.

>And for a good classic space station book, the "Venus Equilateral" stories,
>by George O. Smith.

This is also a classic "Astounding"-ish puzzle book, and recommended
no less for that.

A few specific short stories I'd add to the recommendations list:

"Flowers for Algernon" (Daniel Keyes) goes without saying, but I'll
mention it anyway.

"A Martian Odyssey" by Stanley Weinbaum -- an early (1930s) depiction
of a truly *alien* alien. No human with latex stick-ons here!

"Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates, the short on which "Day the
Earth Stood Still" was based. The movie, alas, did not include that
absolute killer of a last line.

"It's A *Good* Life!" by Jerome Bixby -- a Twilight Zone episode was
based on this. Chilling.

And one I'd bet very few have heard of: "E for Effort" by T. L.

Sherred. It deals with the invention of a machine that can view any
event in the past and present. Deals not so much with the invention
itself as with the consequences of its existence -- and the
consequences of the awareness of its existence.

Can't right at the mo' say where you can find the above, but they've
been anthologized. So *hunt* for them.

(I love recommendation threads like this.)
--

"So this Vorlon says to me "Never ask that question!',
and I go, I says,
'IT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I GOT, BABY!!'"


Michael Rogero Brown

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Oct 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/31/97
to

David DeRubeis (deru...@ligand.neusc.bcm.tmc.edu) wrote:

: David Stinson wrote:
: >
: >
: > You ever thought of trying a library???
: >
: > Or any good used book store.
: >


: Be fair, David. I've seen nothing by Doc Smith in the Houston Public


: Library, and it took me about a year to track down the whole Lensman
: series, before a couple of people decided to sell 2 sets at roughly the
: same time. It's been out of print for quite a while, yet is still
: fairly popular.

It's also not BACK IN PRINT. A small press has reprinted the whole
series in trade paperback reprints of the original hardbacks. As Barnes&
Noble and B.Dalton's has mentioned this in their freebie sf book mag, I'm
sure you can get these from the chains.

--
<< Michael Rogero Brown | Any opinions expressed are my >>
<< (UNIX System Support) | own, and generally unpopular >>
<< Motorola-Plantation Radio Products Group| with others. >>
<< Internet: mich...@cse.fau.edu | Ask me if I care. >>

John & Linda VanSickle

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Nov 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/1/97
to

Theron Fullofit wrote:
>
> Labeling my comments "Theron's Rant-of-the-Month (TM)" doesn't make them any
> less cogent. C'mon, folks. Leonard Bernstein wrote a very good musical
> based directly on Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet." His accomplishment was
> that he made an original re-interpretation of "Romeo and Juliet." He added
> something to the Shakespeare story. Fans of "West Side Story" don't have to
> make some bullshit claim that Bernstein drew on the same historical and
> literary sources as Shakespeare and independently came up with "Romeo and
> Juliet in New York."
>
> Similarly, Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice took the New Testament account of
> the life of Jesus and wrote "Jesus Christ Superstar."

It would be more precise to say that they took some of the words used in the
New Testament account and wrote "Jesus Christ Superstar."

> Both "West Side Story" and "Jesus Christ Superstar" are brilliant derivative
> works. Babylon 5 fans should be raving about how brilliantly Joe
> Straczynski interpreted Tolkien's work in a "future universe" setting.

But he didn't. When the differences in setting and style are stripped away,
we are left with two radically different stories.

> Instead they're cheapening Tolkien's accomplishments by claiming that if
> someone just uses the same sources as Tolkien, that they come up with some
> version of "Lord of the Rings."

Nobody on this side of the argument is claiming that B5 is a version of
LotR.

> >> Now that the original "5-year arc" story has been mostly told, why
> doesn't
> >> someone ask Joe Straczynski to expand a little on His historical
> references?
> >> For example, just what common historical and mythological sources did He
> >> and Tolkien use?
> >
> > That's actually not a bad idea.
> >
> >> And how does He know so much about Tolkien's sources?
> >
> > Well, I dunno. Perhaps any of the dozens of dissertations which
> >investigate the roots of LOTR, many of which have been released in book
> >form?
>

> If Joe Straczynski acutally used any of those sources as the basis of His
> own background research instead of "Lord of the Rings," and all He could
> come up with is a version of "Lord of the Rings in Space," then that's even
> less original and creative than deriving his arc directly from Tolkien's
> work.

A hypothetical concern, since B5 is simply not the same story as LotR.

Regards,
John
--
"We Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead."
http://www.erols.com/vansickl

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Plain and Simple Cronan

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Nov 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/1/97
to

John & Linda VanSickle wrote:
>A hypothetical concern, since B5 is simply not the same story as LotR.

Yeah it is. IT just ain't quite as epic

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>

Wanna know how the generally obscene and seemlingly simple
place you believe to be reality is really run? No? Then go to
http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/godFAQ.htm for a brief FAQ
on the universe

John Keegan

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Nov 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/2/97
to

In <63gs2d$g...@camel18.mindspring.com> "Plain and Simple Cronan"

<cro...@DeathsDoor.com> writes:
>
>
>John & Linda VanSickle wrote:
>>A hypothetical concern, since B5 is simply not the same story as
LotR.
>
>Yeah it is. IT just ain't quite as epic

OK. I have heard this claim time and time again. So I think
it is time to put your money where your mouth is. Either you
or Theron Fuller (since you have both been the ones to claim
this recently) should do a point for point analysis of how
Babylon 5 is simply Lord of the Rings redux. Let's see it,
plot point for plot point.

I don't think you can do it. First of all, you need to have
all of the characters match up perfectly. Then, you have to
take the structure of the story, point for point, and compare
it. They should match.

Guess what...I say it cannot be done. And I am not talking
about some partial, half-baked effort, either. You should
either meet the full challenge, or concede that you are wrong.
I think that you will either ignore the challenge, or make
some snide and useless remark. Either way, you will prove
my point.

Here it is, folks! Mark this down! Because one way or another
we will get to the bottom of this. Either they will prove
their point *fully*, in which case I will be willing to take
that defeat in stride, or they will be proven wrong.

(BTW, I note that neither Theron or Cronan bothered to reply
to my earlier response on this issue...<g>)

Yours,

John Keegan

PS: Mr. Ford Thaxton, I am still waiting for you to publicly
explain your point of view without tossing insults and baseless
rumours. We are waiting...


Plain and Simple Cronan

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Nov 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/2/97
to

John Keegan wrote


>OK. I have heard this claim time and time again.

It should have sunk in by now.

So I think
>it is time to put your money where your mouth is.

Deal.

Either you
>or Theron Fuller (since you have both been the ones to claim
>this recently) should do a point for point analysis of how
>Babylon 5 is simply Lord of the Rings redux. Let's see it,
>plot point for plot point.

Unfair. Are you expecting me to write a comprehensive analysis of a series
of books that have benn the focus of college courses? You kno very well that
what you ask is simply impossible with weeks(possibly monthes) of detailed
analysis.

>I don't think you can do it.

Your right. Guess why? It can't be done by anyone who has the time to sit
here and argue over it.

First of all, you need to have
>all of the characters match up perfectly.

Since when? Do the characters in Westside Story and Romeo and Juliet match
up perfectly? No. B5 is LOTR remade into scifi. Never said this was a bad
th