True origin of "Kiss? What is kiss?"
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
Kiss? What is kiss?
As many of you know, this is the shorthand often used to mock SF
storylines in which a beautiful alien woman, ignorant of human
customs, receives her initiation in the arts of love by a virile human
male. Frequent references occur in many 1950s B-movies and pretty much
every Star Trek series, most notably the original series.
However, I have failed utterly to locate the true origin of this
quote. I've Googled around (both general search and Google Groups),
I've carefully reviewed many Star Trek: TOS episodes (including likely
candidates "The Cage", "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", "The Apple",
"The Gamesters of Triskelion", "By Any Other Name", and "Requiem For
Methuselah"). I checked another promising candidate, the SF classic
"Forbidden Planet", but the suggested Altaira quote just wasn't there.
(I must say, though, that after nearly 50 subsequent years of SF
movies and TV, "Forbidden Planet" still holds it own as intelligent,
well-written, and much better than most in trying to be reasonably
scientific, especially given the times.)
Can anyone tell me definitively where someone actually said "Kiss?
What is kiss?" in a movie or TV show? (The only actual speaking I've
heard so far came from Mystery Science Theater 3000, which was
obviously mocking, not originating.) Was this perhaps only in a
written story and used to mock the cinematic variations? Might it be
that no one ever actually said it on film or in a book until it became
a joke? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Jeffrey Quisenberry
Kevin Johnston
Approximately: "Brain and brain. What is brain?"
From the 3rd season Star Trek episode "Spock's Brain." Said in
exasperation by the *literally* ignorant beautiful alien woman, to Kirk,
as he tries to explain to her Spock's predicament (that they need to
find and return his brain).
I don't know if there are antecedents, but it's a definitive example,
anyway.
I am 99% certain the MST3K joke is a direct reference to this. It is a
well-known line from an infamous episode of the series.
Kevin
ANIM8Rfsk
<< I don't know if there are antecedents, but it's a definitive example,
anyway. >>
There's one cite a 'tad' older.
In the Garden of Eden God called Adam to him and said, "Now I shall teach you
how to kiss."
"Lord, what is kiss?" asked Adam.
"I will show you," said God and taught him all he needed to know about kissing.
Whereupon Adam went to Eve and kissed her.
Then God called Adam back and said, "Now I shall teach you about intimacy."
"Lord, what is Intimacy?" asked Adam.
"I will show you," said God and taught him all he needed to know about
intimacy. Adam then went to Eve, but came back almost immediately...
"Lord," asked Adam, "what is headache?"
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Joe Pfeiffer
> I have been trying to track down the original use of the quote:
>
> Kiss? What is kiss?
>
> As many of you know, this is the shorthand often used to mock SF
> storylines in which a beautiful alien woman, ignorant of human
> customs, receives her initiation in the arts of love by a virile human
> male. Frequent references occur in many 1950s B-movies and pretty much
> every Star Trek series, most notably the original series.
I first encountered the idea, though not the exact line, in
J. M. Barrie's "The Little White Bird" (the book that introduced Peter
Pan). It's Peter who doesn't know what a kiss is:
>She said, out of pity for him, "I shall give you a kiss if you
>like," but though he once knew he had long forgotten what kisses
>are, and he replied, "Thank you," and held out his hand, thinking
>she had offered to put something into it. This was a great shock
>to her, but she felt she could not explain without shaming him,
>so with charming delicacy she gave Peter a thimble which happened
>to be in her pocket, and pretended that it was a kiss. Poor
>little boy! he quite believed her, and to this day he wears it on
>his finger, though there can be scarcely anyone who needs a
>thimble so little. You see, though still a tiny child, it was
>really years and years since he had seen his mother, and I
>daresay the baby who had supplanted him was now a man with
>whiskers.
And a couple of paragraphs later:
>"And if you want very much to give me a kiss," Maimie said, "you
>can do it."
>
>Very reluctantly Peter began to take the thimble off his finger.
>He thought she wanted it back.
>
>"I don't mean a kiss," she said hurriedly, "I mean a thimble."
>
>"What's that?" Peter asked.
>
>"It's like this," she said, and kissed him.
>
>"I should love to give you a thimble," Peter said gravely, so he
>gave her one. He gave her quite a number of thimbles, and then a
>delightful idea came into his head! "Maimie," he said, "will you
>marry me?"
(quotes from the Project Gutenberg edition)
Barrie reused the scene in "Peter and Wendy," too.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> je...@computer.org (Jeffrey J. Quisenberry) wrote:
> > I have been trying to track down the original use of the quote:
> >
> > Kiss? What is kiss?
> >
>
>
> From the 3rd season Star Trek episode "Spock's Brain." Said in
> exasperation by the *literally* ignorant beautiful alien woman, to Kirk,
> as he tries to explain to her Spock's predicament (that they need to
> find and return his brain).
>
> I don't know if there are antecedents, but it's a definitive example,
> anyway.
>
> I am 99% certain the MST3K joke is a direct reference to this. It is a
> well-known line from an infamous episode of the series.
>
> Kevin
Hmm. I hadn't thought of that. (That's one of my favorite lines from
the original Star Trek series, too.) However, I really don't think
that's the origin of the "What is kiss?" riff. Obviously, they're
grammatically similar, but what makes the "brain" line so funny is the
way Kara says it. I feel 99% certain myself that the SOL crew would
use the same inflection if they were riffing on "Spock's Brain", e.g.:
CROW: [in a frustrated voice] Kiss and kiss! What is kiss?
Many, perhaps even most of the cultural riffs MST3K makes can be
recognized as much by *how* they say the lines as by *what* they say.
But I have found no instances of the "kiss" riff being recited in
anything resembling that manner.
Anyway, I've put in on my list of possibilities. Thanks for the
suggestion! Any other ideas, folks?
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> je...@computer.org (Jeffrey J. Quisenberry) writes:
>
> > I have been trying to track down the original use of the quote:
> >
> > Kiss? What is kiss?
> >
>
I'm sure this isn't what the SOL crew are riffing. The MST3K context
is always one of innocent alien female getting moves put on her by
smarmy -- er, I mean swarthy -- Earth male.
It's a charming pair of passages, though. I'm afraid my exposure to
Peter Pan is more the Disney-movie version, not Barrie's original
works. (I'm looking forward to seeing the upcoming "Peter Pan" film,
which I hear is much truer to Barrie's eponymous story, for us
miscreants who get our great literature interpreted for us on the big
screen!)
Thank you for your suggestion, though.
Regards, Jeff
Fire3Sky
>is always one of innocent alien female getting moves put on her by
>smarmy -- er, I mean swarthy -- Earth male.
In one TOS episode, I think 'Gamesters of Triskelion', Kirk makes passes at one
of the remarkably stupid gamester women - I am pretty sure she doesn't know
what kissing is, and has no idea about sexual relationships. Kirk 'explains' it
to her. Kirk comes off as remarkably smarmy by today's standards.
Fire3Sky
Joe Pfeiffer
Based on my recollections of the movie (I last saw it a while ago),
and a recent reading of "Peter and Wendy," it's not that far off.
Even bizarre stuff like a dog for a nanny (a Newfoundland in the book,
a St. Bernard in the movie) was already there. Certainly not a
politically-inspired horror like "Bambi." I've seen references to it
as a travesty, but all I remember is a failure to demonstrate Hook's
bloodthirstiness by killing off a random pirate.
I only first heard of White Bird a couple of weeks ago, and found a
copy and read it -- spending pretty much the entire time absolutely
astonished that there was ever a time when something so overtly and
completely sick, sick, sick could *ever* have been taken as an
innocent children's story. Speaking as a father, there is no way Sir
James would *ever* have been allowed in a room alone with either of my
children (one a boy, now 19 and one a girl, now 16) before they were
big enough to defend themselves.
Fire3Sky
>copy and read it -- spending pretty much the entire time absolutely
>astonished that there was ever a time when something so overtly and
>completely sick, sick, sick could *ever* have been taken as an
>innocent children's story.
Could you elaborate? I've never read any of the Peter Pan stuff.
Fire3Sky
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
Thanks for the reply, but as I mentioned in the first posting on this
subject, I've carefully watched the following and confirmed that NONE
of them have the actual phrase "What is kiss?", though most have
similar situations:
STAR TREK (Original Series):
The Cage
What Are Little Girls Made Of?
The Apple
The Gamesters of Triskelion
By Any Other Name
Requiem For Methuselah
MOVIES:
Forbidden Planet
I'm looking for the exact quote, if it exists outside of MST3K. I
suppose they may be the first to have uttered it, but it just seems
that it came from somewhere else, much earlier.
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> << From: Kevin Johnston kevinj_s...@me-not.yahoo.com >>
>
>
> << I don't know if there are antecedents, but it's a definitive example,
> anyway. >>
>
> There's one cite a 'tad' older.
>
> In the Garden of Eden God called Adam to him and said, "Now I shall teach you
> how to kiss."
>
> "Lord, what is kiss?" asked Adam.
>
> "I will show you," said God and taught him all he needed to know about kissing.
> Whereupon Adam went to Eve and kissed her.
>
> Then God called Adam back and said, "Now I shall teach you about intimacy."
>
> "Lord, what is Intimacy?" asked Adam.
>
> "I will show you," said God and taught him all he needed to know about
> intimacy. Adam then went to Eve, but came back almost immediately...
>
> "Lord," asked Adam, "what is headache?"
>
I don't know if that's what I'm looking for, but it's hilarious! Do
you have an origin for this joke, or is it one of those things that's
been passed around so often that no one knows where it came from? Even
though it doesn't quite fit the MST3K context, I'll add it to my
possible-origin list. Thank you.
Regards, Jeff
ANIM8Rfsk
<< I don't know if that's what I'm looking for, but it's hilarious! Do
you have an origin for this joke, or is it one of those things that's
been passed around so often that no one knows where it came from? >>
I googled and it came up on a site. No reference for it, just a site with
jokes.
There's also a guy claiming that Alteria asks this in 'Forbidden Planet' but I
think he's whacked.
Joe Pfeiffer
Hang on.... doesn't it (the exact line) come from "Forbidden Planet"?
ANIM8Rfsk
<< Hang on.... doesn't it (the exact line) come from "Forbidden Planet"? >>
I found one cite on the web for that. I don't recall it myself. I rememeber
her saying 'why don't you kiss me like everyone else does?'
William December Starr
je...@computer.org (Jeffrey J. Quisenberry) said:
> Thanks for the reply, but as I mentioned in the first posting on
> this subject, I've carefully watched the following and confirmed
> that NONE of them have the actual phrase "What is kiss?", though
> most have similar situations:
>
> STAR TREK (Original Series):
> The Cage
> What Are Little Girls Made Of?
> The Apple
> The Gamesters of Triskelion
> By Any Other Name
> Requiem For Methuselah
"The Cage?" I don't recall Vika, in any of her roles, playing it
_that_ innocent. Been eons since I saw it, though.
Not sure about "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" either... did
Andrea -- Sherry Jackson, in what may have been the Best Trek
Costume Ever -- ever present as innocent or naive? (And I think
there was certainly an undercurrent of suggestion, never openly
stated, that the good Dr. Korby had been using her as a sex toy.)
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
ANIM8Rfsk
<< (And I think
there was certainly an undercurrent of suggestion, never openly
stated, that the good Dr. Korby had been using her as a sex toy.) >>
Kirk goes to kiss her, and she says her kisses are only for Korby. Then later
when she wants to kiss Korby and he wont pucker up, she vaporizes him.
Stephen Smith
This question has raised another for me, could it be that this refers
not to the pretext given but the abreviation of the word kiss ie
K.I.S.S. - keep it simple stupid - as manu people I have talked to over
the years have not known this particular term. I may or may not apply
but worth a thought as MST3K invariably misquotes may things.
Steve Smith
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> << From: Joe Pfeiffer pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu >>
>
>
> << Hang on.... doesn't it (the exact line) come from "Forbidden Planet"? >>
>
> I found one cite on the web for that. I don't recall it myself. I rememeber
> her saying 'why don't you kiss me like everyone else does?'
>
I know somebody cited "Forbidden Planet as having the "Kiss? What is
kiss?" line, but they are wrong. I recently watched this excellent
movie on DVD, and found nothing resembling this line. (Please bear in
mind that, as I stated originally, I am looking for this EXACT line,
not stuff that sounds like it.) The very first mention of kissing in a
scene with Altaira [Anne Francis] occurs when Lt. Farman [Jack Kelly]
gets her alone near where the spaceship crewmen are building equipment
to punch a signal back to Earth for instructions. The scene begins
like this:
Lt. Jerry Farman: It's nothing really personal -- just a kiss.
Altaira Morbius: Hmm. But why should people want to kiss each other?
Two things are clear: (1) that they've been talking off-camera, and
(2) by the time we join them, Altaira knows what a kiss is. Unless the
DVD release cut part of the scene (and it works as-is, so I suspect
this is not the case), then Altaira does not pose the question I'm
after.
Altaira does display an interesting mixture of naivete, frankness, and
knowledge, as shown in her very first scene, when she is introduced to
Commander Adams [Leslie Nielsen], Doctor Ostrow [Warren Stevens], and
Lt. Farman, standing in a row:
Altaira: You're lovely, Doctor.
[The doctor laughs in embarrassment.]
Altaira: Course, the two end ones are unbelievable!
However, she doesn't ask the pertinent question.
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> << From: wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) >>
>
>
> << (And I think
> there was certainly an undercurrent of suggestion, never openly
> stated, that the good Dr. Korby had been using her as a sex toy.) >>
>
> Kirk goes to kiss her, and she says her kisses are only for Korby. Then later
> when she wants to kiss Korby and he wont pucker up, she vaporizes him.
>
Korby's words are ambiguous, never actually saying what he programmed
Andrea for:
KORBY: You think I could love a machine?
CHAPEL: Did you?
KORBY: Andrea is incapable of that. She simply obeys orders. She has
no meaning for me. There's no emotional bond! Andrea... kiss, eh,
Captain Kirk.
[Andrea kisses Kirk. Obviously, she already knows "what is kiss".]
KORBY: Now strike him!
[Andrea slaps Kirk.]
KORBY: You see? There's no emotion in it. No emotional involvement.
She simply responds to orders!
The Kirk smarm comes later, when he's lying down and Andrea passes by:
KIRK: Andrea! [He gets up.] Kiss me.
[She obliges. Then she moves to slap him again, but he stops her and
Capt. Casanova shows her what a REAL kiss is.]
ANDREA: [disturbed] No... not programmed for you.
Later, after Korby shoots Ruk, he orders Andrea to arm herself and
"Protect!" After grabbing a phaser, Andrea comes across the Kirk-bot
in a cave passage:
ANDREA: I will kiss you.
KIRK-BOT: No.
ANDREA: You... you will not?
KIRK-BOT: It is illogical.
[Spurned, Andrea shoots him.]
Finally, after Roger-bot blathers about being the real Korby, and
Andrea arrives:
KIRK: Andrea! Give me the weapon!
ANDREA: No! Protect!
[She turns to Korby.]
ANDREA: Protect. [pauses] To love you... to kiss you...
KORBY: No, you cannot love. You're not human.
ANDREA: Love you... k-kiss...
[As they kiss, KORBY, not Andrea, pulls the trigger on Andrea's
phaser, disintegrating them both.]
All this came from reviewing the uncut version of this episode on
videotape. I can quote chapter and verse on the other Star Trek
episodes that I mentioned in my original message as well. I can assure
you that "What is kiss?" does NOT occur in any of the ones I
mentioned. (I haven't ruled out the possibility that other episodes
might have it, but I don't recall any others with the right scenario.)
Regards, Jeff
Fire3Sky
>KIRK-BOT: No.
>ANDREA: You... you will not?
>KIRK-BOT: It is illogical.
>[Spurned, Andrea shoots him.]
>
This is priceless. I sometimes wonder if the TOS writers were taking some
'recreational' drugs to come up with this stuff (Brain?....Brain? What is
brain?)
Fire3Sky
David M. Geshwind
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry <je...@computer.org> wrote in article
<c7a3a4fb.03121...@posting.google.com>...
While this is neither definitive nor authoritative (haven't seeen the film
in many years, but it had a big impact on me in my formative years) I
believe there is a similar (if not exact) line spoken by Weena (Yvette
Mimieux) in a conversation with George Wells (Rod Taylor) in the George Pal
1960s version of "The Time Machine". In the scene he is having her put her
hair up, etc. and asks her something about kissing, wherein she replies
with that line (I think) and he demonstrates.
Can anybody confirm this?
-- dmg
David M. Geshwind
Remove the FILTER to reply
Tony Calguire
>
>
> I'm looking for the exact quote, if it exists outside of MST3K. I
> suppose they may be the first to have uttered it, but it just seems
> that it came from somewhere else, much earlier.
>
This may be one of those situations where the famous exact quote never
really existed. There's an old story about movie star Mae West, who's
most often quoted with the classic line, "Come up and see me
sometime"... apparently, she never actually said it. The correct quote,
as I understand it, is, "Why don't you come up some time and see me?".
Steve Yoxon
"David M. Geshwind" <acaesq...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:01c3c535$9c942940$45f0c043@default...
>
> Jeffrey J. Quisenberry <je...@computer.org> wrote in article
> <c7a3a4fb.03121...@posting.google.com>...
> > I have been trying to track down the original use of the quote:
> >
> > Kiss? What is kiss?
> >
<Snip>
> >
> > Can anyone tell me definitively where someone actually said "Kiss?
> > What is kiss?" in a movie or TV show? (The only actual speaking I've
> > heard so far came from Mystery Science Theater 3000, which was
> > obviously mocking, not originating.) Was this perhaps only in a
> > written story and used to mock the cinematic variations? Might it be
> > that no one ever actually said it on film or in a book until it became
> > a joke? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jeffrey Quisenberry
> >
>
> While this is neither definitive nor authoritative (haven't seeen the film
> in many years, but it had a big impact on me in my formative years) I
> believe there is a similar (if not exact) line spoken by Weena (Yvette
> Mimieux) in a conversation with George Wells (Rod Taylor) in the George
Pal
> 1960s version of "The Time Machine". In the scene he is having her put her
> hair up, etc. and asks her something about kissing, wherein she replies
> with that line (I think) and he demonstrates.
>
> Can anybody confirm this?
>
*delurk*
I can not confirm it absolutely, but I remember that too. (bloody marvellous
film)
*lurk"
Steve
--
If you are reading this signature, then please let everyone know that it is
very well thought out, interesting and put in an eloquent manner, it is just
that I can't be bothered putting one in right now.
I might get round to it later though.
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> Greetings all,
>
> This question has raised another for me, could it be that this refers
> not to the pretext given but the abreviation of the word kiss ie
> K.I.S.S. - keep it simple stupid - as manu people I have talked to over
> the years have not known this particular term. I may or may not apply
> but worth a thought as MST3K invariably misquotes may things.
>
> Steve Smith
>
The purpose behind my question is to help me with an MST3K quote
project, in which I'm taking considerable care to provide EXACT quotes
and DEFINITIVE sources. I can assure you that the context for the
"What is kiss?" and related quotes is as I originally described it,
and not a reference to the famous K.I.S.S. principle.
Based on my research, I would suggest that "invariably" is far too
strong a word for the errors that MST3K makes in cultural quotes. On
the contrary, when I've reviewed movies and TV shows that I believe
are MST3K quote sources, I usually find it easy to catch the quote,
and they're frequently spot-on, not only in text but in mood and
intonation. More often, they're close enough to recognize easily if
you remember the show well. I have certainly caught them in a few
significant errors. But so far, although I've only completed perhaps
3% of the entire text of MST3K episodes (10% of the text of a third of
the episodes), I'd say Best Brains' track record is pretty good.
Regards, Jeff
Jesse Mazer
"David M. Geshwind" wrote:
> While this is neither definitive nor authoritative (haven't seeen the film
> in many years, but it had a big impact on me in my formative years) I
> believe there is a similar (if not exact) line spoken by Weena (Yvette
> Mimieux) in a conversation with George Wells (Rod Taylor) in the George Pal
> 1960s version of "The Time Machine". In the scene he is having her put her
> hair up, etc. and asks her something about kissing, wherein she replies
> with that line (I think) and he demonstrates.
>
> Can anybody confirm this?
>
I have the movie on DVD, I fast-forwarded to all the scenes with George and
Weena, they never had any dialogue about kissing. The first time he kisses
her, it is as he is about to descend into the Morlock's lair (right before the
air raid sirens go off), and she does not seem surprised or confused. Later,
near the end, there is a scene where Weena is asking about the women of his
time, how they wear their hair, and they get very close to kissing, but are
interrupted by Eloi yelling because they've found the time machine. Again,
there is no dialogue about kissing in this scene.
--
Jesse Mazer
http://www.jessemazer.com
Jesse Mazer
"Jeffrey J. Quisenberry" wrote:
> I have been trying to track down the original use of the quote:
>
> Kiss? What is kiss?
>
I did a little googling of my own, and I found someone's blog entry at
http://eve-tushnet.blogspot.com/2002_09_01_eve-tushnet_archive.html#82160315
which says that the quote is from a "scantily-clad island woman to
washed-ashore sailor" in the movie "Pagan Island". Pagan Island is from
1960, here's its IMDB page:
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0054154/
And here's an amusing review:
http://www.stomptokyo.com/movies/p/pagan-island.html
Are you sure this quote is normally used to mock science fiction movies?
Perhaps the MST3K gang were just calling on their encyclopedic knowledge
of obscure B-movies when they made that joke...
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
Thanks, Jesse! I hereby dub you my first research assistant. I was
just about to procure a copy of "The Time Machine" to review, but
you've saved me the trouble. (On to "Five Easy Pieces" and "The
Manchurian Candidate" for some other quotes unrelated to this topic.)
And thanks to David M. Geshwind for the suggestion!
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
The "kiss" riff might very well be used for non-SF movies, given some
of the odd films MST3K has mocked. (I remember more MST3K usage that I
have formally recorded so far.)
I looked over the pages you suggested, and this does sound promising!
Unfortunately, "Pagan Island" doesn't seem to be easily or
inexpensively obtained. (I wonder why?) I'm willing to rent movies to
verify quotes, but not buy them if they cost $12-$20, like this one
does through Amazon or Half.com. Does anybody out there have a
reasonable source for "Pagan Island", or is anyone willing to loan me
their copy or review it for the exact quote?
Meanwhile, thank you VERY much for your suggestion, Jesse!
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
> << From: je...@computer.org (Jeffrey J. Quisenberry) >>
>
>
> << I don't know if that's what I'm looking for, but it's hilarious! Do
> you have an origin for this joke, or is it one of those things that's
> been passed around so often that no one knows where it came from? >>
>
> I googled and it came up on a site. No reference for it, just a site with
> jokes.
>
> There's also a guy claiming that Alteria asks this in 'Forbidden Planet' but I
> think he's whacked.
>
Well, I wouldn't say "whacked", but I'd say he's incorrect. I watched
"Forbidden Planet" on DVD and did not find this quote. (It's a great
movie, though!)
I love quote pages on the Web, but I wish more people would include
attributions. Even if they're wrong, they at least give you somewhere
to look!
Regards, Jeff
Jeffrey J. Quisenberry
A definite possibility. Of course, if no movie, TV shows, or even
books have this exact quote, it's possible that MST3K was the first to
use the exact line. More likely, it would have been floating around
SF- or general B-movie fandom for a while, with no credible original
source. I'm really hoping that's not the case, so I'll keep searching
and asking around.
false_dmitrii
>
> The purpose behind my question is to help me with an MST3K quote
> project, in which I'm taking considerable care to provide EXACT quotes
> and DEFINITIVE sources. I can assure you that the context for the
> "What is kiss?" and related quotes is as I originally described it,
> and not a reference to the famous K.I.S.S. principle.
>
It isn't as full of esoteric charm as a trivia thread, but have you
tried contacting the MST3K writers? They should have as good a guess
as anyone, and it would resolve the ambiguities. You have so many
possible sources already that even if the K?WIK? quote exists
somewhere, it might not be the source they had in mind.
false_dmitrii