Bill Mumy uncomfortable w/ "Objects in Motion"
Daniel Tropea
Dec 98 V1 Issue 2.
There is a huge interview with Bill Mumy and
his part in Objects in Motion.
The article is on page 33 and written by Joe Nazarro.
S
p
o
i
l
e
r
S
p
a
c
e
Most of the first half of the article dealt with his
final act on B5 where he tried to kill Sheridan.
His words: "After all i went through in the fifth
season, to have closed it out like that was hard. It felt so unreal to
me, it just didn't seem like
any kind of reflex that Lennier would have had,
and that was the hardest part. I could never
internalize that scene it felt completey wrong
to me and i gave up....."
He also felt that Lennier would have done the
opposite since Lennier was the type who would
always try to save everyone even a stranger.
Mumy also tried talking to the director before
the scene stating that he could not believe
Lennier would do this.
I found the article very interesting. Its very rare
that you read a supporting actor so critical of
a show.
Anyone want to bet we will never see Lennier
again? With Mumy's comments in this
article i wouldn't doubt it.
dman
of such a notion, no matter how he felt.
From the past five years I've spent watching the show, and studying
all of the characters behaviors, I can't believe that Lennier is even
capable
of such an act.
But that what makes us human, and Babylon 5 fresh and new almost every
episode I've seen.
D
Daniel Tropea wrote in message
<28581-36...@newsd-231.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Fred McCann
: His words: "After all i went through in the fifth
: season, to have closed it out like that was hard. It felt so unreal to
: me, it just didn't seem like
: any kind of reflex that Lennier would have had,
: and that was the hardest part. I could never
: internalize that scene it felt completey wrong
: to me and i gave up....."
: He also felt that Lennier would have done the
: opposite since Lennier was the type who would
: always try to save everyone even a stranger.
Yeah, I have to admit that this was really out of character. Lennier is
one of the cool characters on B5 and this seems like a bit of an
assassination. Furthermore, I dunno how they would work him back into the
plot ever again.
Another thing, the sequence when all this occured seemed rushed and a bit
unbelieveable
-Fred
Bryan Lambert
<jke...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Spoiler space, just in case.
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>I kind of got the idea that it was indeed very unlike Lennier to do
>something like this. Even Delenn commented on this, and that, "Sometimes we
>become someone else" maybe hinting that he was not acting under his own
>will. Maybe Morden had a little influence on him? Anyone loyal to the
>Shadows would love to see Sheridan dead, or under their control, hence the
>keeper for Sheridan's child.
According to Neil Gaiman, who appeared at Mad Media in Wisconsin in
September, the bit about having Lennier betray the An'la'shok (sp?)
was his idea. He put it into the script, thinking it would be neat,
then brought it to JMS, who hadn't planned on any such thing, but
thought it was a good idea, and thought of how it would happen.
So, there's your genesis. Whether it was a good idea or not is
debatable; JMS thought it was, Mumy thought it wasn't, I'm fairly
ambivalent about the whole thing.
Bryan "Thought Mumy did a nice job, though" Lambert
<bryn...@minn.net> RATMM's Official Biggest Wuss,
Keeper: "Modern Space Ghost FAQ", Web:http://www1.minn.net/~bryncthy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Where I'm from, the 'Walk of Woo' would get you a knuckle sandwich."
-Moltar
Berserker
> I just picked up the latest Sci-Fi TV Magazine
> Dec 98 V1 Issue 2.
>
> There is a huge interview with Bill Mumy and
> his part in Objects in Motion.
>
> The article is on page 33 and written by Joe Nazarro.
> S
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
>
> S
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> Most of the first half of the article dealt with his
> final act on B5 where he tried to kill Sheridan.
>
> His words: "After all i went through in the fifth
> season, to have closed it out like that was hard. It felt so unreal to
> me, it just didn't seem like
> any kind of reflex that Lennier would have had,
> and that was the hardest part. I could never
> internalize that scene it felt completey wrong
> to me and i gave up....."
>
> He also felt that Lennier would have done the
> opposite since Lennier was the type who would
> always try to save everyone even a stranger.
>
> Mumy also tried talking to the director before
> the scene stating that he could not believe
> Lennier would do this.
>
> I found the article very interesting. Its very rare
> that you read a supporting actor so critical of
> a show.
>
> Anyone want to bet we will never see Lennier
> again? With Mumy's comments in this
> article i wouldn't doubt it.
Yep. We all have our moments of weakness, but the typically involve being in
a bad mood and not holding open the door for someone. They don't usually
involve allowing the President of the Galaxy suffocate to death thanks to a
plot contrivance, especially when he's looking right at and could later accuse
you. IT was awful and wrecked the entire episode.
--
****************************************************
'Revolution' the People howls and cries
'Freedom, that's what we're needing'
We've needed it for centuries -
Our arteries are bleeding.
The stage is shaking. The audience rocks.
The whole thing is over by nine o'clock.
"When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball.
But today, I say we must move forward, not backward, upward,
not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling toward
freedom." - Kodos, Treehouse of Horror VII
''Even if you don't know what's going on, just knock someone out
and you can't go wrong." James Callier
Phil Fraering
Here there be spoilers.
> I kind of got the idea that it was indeed very unlike Lennier to do
> something like this. Even Delenn commented on this, and that, "Sometimes we
> become someone else" maybe hinting that he was not acting under his own
> will. Maybe Morden had a little influence on him? Anyone loyal to the
> Shadows would love to see Sheridan dead, or under their control, hence the
> keeper for Sheridan's child.
Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
He was acting under JMS's will.
And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
of disbelief.
This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
happened.
--
"I see a great hand, reaching out of the stars. Phil Fraering
The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds. The p...@globalreach.net
sounds of billions of people calling your name." /Will work for *tape*/
"My followers?" "Your victims."
Arthur Levesque
DT>Anyone want to bet we will never see Lennier again?
Considering that this was the second-to-last episode of B5, and the
last one filmed? Hmmmm...
dman (d_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
DM>I can't believe that Lennier is even capable of such an act
DM>But that what makes us human
Except that he's not human.
Fred McCann (bm...@fmccan61.dorm.usm.maine.edu) wrote:
FM>...this seems like a bit of an assassination. Furthermore, I dunno
FM>how they would work him back into the plot ever again.
The plot is OVER.
--
/\ Arthur Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgASM =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash Member of a vast right-wing conspiracy (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC
Daniel Tropea
for posting. So i had to do a very uncomfortable
cut and paste from my webtv then through in
the > so until pubnews.zippo.com allows
for posting or i find a news server that automatically does embedded
text i will have
problems. I hate dejanews btw - i lost too many
posts posting from there.
>From: b...@boog.orgASM (Arthur Levesque)
>>>Daniel Tropea (dctr...@webtv.net) wrote: >>>Anyone want to bet we
will never see >>>Lennier again?
> Considering that this was the >second-to-last
episode of B5, and the last one >ilmed? Hmmmm...
Well if Franklin will be back in guest shots i
can only assume the rest of the members will
be to. Thats basically what i had in mind when
i wrote this post. That just about all cast members will be back as
guests. With
Mumy's criticisms of the show - will JMS
ever invite him back?
>>dman (d_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>>I can't believe that Lennier is even capable of >>such an act But that
what makes us human
> Except that he's not human.
I agree but his species does share our souls.
>Fred McCann >(bm...@fmccan61.dorm.usm.maine.edu) wrote:
>>...this seems like a bit of an assassination. >>Furthermore, I dunno
how they would work him >>back into the plot ever again.
> The plot is OVER.
Except that it continues in Crusades.
C. J. W.
J. Keith Jackson wrote:
> Spoiler case, just in space......
>
> Spoiler chase, lost in space.....
> Phil Fraering wrote in message <877lwnm...@globalreach.net>...
> >Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
> >
> >He was acting under JMS's will.
> >
> >And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
> >of disbelief.
> >
> >This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
> >happened.
>
> This is strictly my opinion and thoughts, so don't everyone jump at once....
>
> I applaud JMS for not having _everyone_ "live happily ever after". Lyta and
> G'Kar are an unresolved thread, and while not necessarily tragic, not really
> happy either. Garibaldi is happy, but still has his date with Bester down
> the road that could lead to tragedy. Sheridan and Delenn's happiness is
> overshadowed (sorry) by his limited time. Londo's fate is tragic and so is
> Lennier's immediate fate. We can only wonder what will happen to him. (And
> maybe find out Wednesday).
>
> I can believe these events easier than a fairy tale ending where everyone
> skips off down the yellow brick road singing, "Ding, dong, the Vorlon's
> dead......". They're closer to what happens in real life, at least real
> life in my neck of the woods.
>
> J. Keith Jackson
> kjac...@usamail.usouthal.edu
Granted but to wait until the second to the last eps to start introducing new
subplots is at best silly and at worse stupid...He had the whole damn season 5
where NOTHING happened and JMS did dip. No, the way it was presented was almost
like a punishment to the fan and frankly I didn't care for it one damn bit.
CJW
Dennis
Anyone want to bet we will never see Lennier
again? With Mumy's comments in this
article i wouldn't doubt it.
--- mny comments -
While it MAY be difficult to believe that Lennier would do this, it's not
completely impossible. Unrequited love can do strange things to people.....
I suppose Minbari would have similar difficulties?
Dennis
J. Keith Jackson
Scott Peterson
>I agree partly, it doesn't seem like Lennier would even conceived
>of such a notion, no matter how he felt.
>From the past five years I've spent watching the show, and studying
>all of the characters behaviors, I can't believe that Lennier is even
>capable
>of such an act.
>But that what makes us human, and Babylon 5 fresh and new almost every
>episode I've seen.
Lennier has always reminded me of an iceberg. I think there are very
large portions of what really drove him that have never come to light.
The one incident that comes to mind was in the episode where Jason
reached out and grabbed him after a fight. Lennier almost choked him
to death while explaining that he would not be touched by a human. At
that time there seemed to be a lot of hostility towards humans that
was held in strictly out of respect for his position and loyalty to
Delenn.
The irony is that for most of the Rangers, joining has lead to
tolerance. In Lennier's case, it seems to have set him apart even
more.
Scott Peterson
Plain and Simple Cronan
>Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
>
>He was acting under JMS's will.
>
>And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
>of disbelief.
>
>This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
>happened.
SUBSCRIBE!
P&SC
Perry H Young
: Yeah, I have to admit that this was really out of character. Lennier is
: one of the cool characters on B5 and this seems like a bit of an
: assassination. Furthermore, I dunno how they would work him back into the
: plot ever again.
"No one here is exactly as he appears." - G'Kar
Alan David Doane
>>>Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
>>>
>>>He was acting under JMS's will.
>>>
>>>And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
>>>of disbelief.
>>>
>>>This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
>>>happened.
I prefer to think that SOMETHING happened, because I like the idea of
Lennier betraying the Rangers as predicted by Morden, but WHATEVER it
is that happened, it wasn't quite like the Deus Ex Machina we saw on
screen.
Perhaps what WE saw were the events as seen through Sheridan's
coolant-soaked mind. He was high as a kite. After all, we also sa3w
the keeper on Londo from Delenn's POV...
Yeah, THAT'S it...
Alan
"Now is all we have."
Delenn, "Babylon 5"
jere7my tho?rpe
<2302127E5D5DF6BD.E8323E13...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
"C. J. W." <prof...@airmail.net> wrote:
*Granted but to wait until the second to the last eps to start introducing new
*subplots is at best silly and at worse stupid...He had the whole damn season 5
*where NOTHING happened and JMS did dip.
"But that's a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness
and into grief and beyond it...Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale
still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?"
"No, they never end as tales," said Frodo. "But the people in them
come, and go when their part's ended. Our part will end later--or
sooner."
"And then we can have some rest and some sleep," said Sam.
----J.R.R. Tolkien, LotR IV, ch. 8
JMS said that "Babylon 5" would tell a story, and that it would end
after five years. He never said that it would tell all the stories in the
B5 universe, or that all the stories we hear about would end in five
years--just that we would see a story, the story of the last of the
Babylon stations. After Wednesday, we'll have seen that story. All the
unresolved subplots, zipping off into all directions, lead _away_ from
Babylon 5; they let us know that the characters will still be doing things
after the series ends, but they're not part of the story of the station,
part of the story JMS was telling. Maybe we'll see them resolved later;
maybe we won't. JMS has left himself options for telling new stories with
the characters we already know, which is nice. But they will be _their_
stories, not B5's story.
It's not at all uncommon in fiction to suggest future paths for the
characters; it's not a cheat, it's an option, there for the author to use
or not. You're confusing "Finishing the story" with "Telling us
everything that happens to the people in the story." It's frustrating,
maybe, but the loose ends tell us that life goes on after the story ends,
which is something Zathras spoke of in WWEII: "You are the...end of the
story, and the beginning of the next great story." I may be in the
minority here, but I like the fact that Garibaldi's rocky road to hell
still stretches in front of him, and that Lennier has just begun a quest
for redemption, and that Lyta and G'Kar are uneasy traveling companions.
I want to see those stories, but if I never do it won't take away from the
story I _did_ see. A rosy ride into the sunset, all loose ends tightened,
would.
----j7y
******************************* <*> *******************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Being an Osmond, you must
c/o kesh...@umich.edu have many arch-enemies."
(734) 769-0913 ----Space Ghost
TMB
So to say it in a few less lines:
Season 5, Franchise Building
Figure out where I'm not to Email me
Troy_...@hotmail.com
Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
> "J. Keith Jackson" <jke...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
> Here there be spoilers.
>
> > I kind of got the idea that it was indeed very unlike Lennier to do
> > something like this. Even Delenn commented on this, and that, "Sometimes we
> > become someone else" maybe hinting that he was not acting under his own
> > will. Maybe Morden had a little influence on him? Anyone loyal to the
> > Shadows would love to see Sheridan dead, or under their control, hence the
> > keeper for Sheridan's child.
>
>
> He was acting under JMS's will.
>
> And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
> of disbelief.
I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
at all.
Troy
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 The plot is OVER.
>
> Except that it continues in Crusades.
Crusade. No 's' And according to JMS, Crusade is a different, separate
story.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> >I want to see those stories, but if I never do it won't take away from the
> >story I _did_ see. A rosy ride into the sunset, all loose ends tightened,
> >would.
> >
>
> So to say it in a few less lines:
>
> Season 5, Franchise Building
In that case, EVERY book ever written has been a franchise builder, because
they ALL have loose ends, characters that continue to live on even after the
final chapter.
Ted from Brooklyn
J. Keith Jackson <jke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<oX262.1769$Gy.18...@news4.mia>...
> Spoiler case, just in space......
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Spoiler chase, lost in space.....
> Phil Fraering wrote in message <877lwnm...@globalreach.net>...
> >Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
> >
> >He was acting under JMS's will.
> >
> >And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
> >of disbelief.
> >
> >This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
> >happened.
>
>
> This is strictly my opinion and thoughts, so don't everyone jump at
once....
>
> I applaud JMS for not having _everyone_ "live happily ever after". Lyta
and
> G'Kar are an unresolved thread, and while not necessarily tragic, not
really
> happy either. Garibaldi is happy, but still has his date with Bester
down
> the road that could lead to tragedy. Sheridan and Delenn's happiness is
> overshadowed (sorry) by his limited time. Londo's fate is tragic and so
is
> Lennier's immediate fate. We can only wonder what will happen to him.
(And
> maybe find out Wednesday).
>
> I can believe these events easier than a fairy tale ending where everyone
> skips off down the yellow brick road singing, "Ding, dong, the Vorlon's
> dead......". They're closer to what happens in real life, at least real
> life in my neck of the woods.
>
> J. Keith Jackson
> kjac...@usamail.usouthal.edu
>
I really wanted to wait until after Sleeping in Light to start on this, but
here goes anyway:
Would you enjoy a book you read that was the size of War and Peace, with a
large cast of important characters, plenty of Hitchcockian "MacGuffins,"
only to get to the end and realize that only about half of the story lines
get resolved? Its almost like ending "Gone With the Wind" after the
burning of Atlanta - you'd be left there wondering what happens to all the
characters you were supposed to care about. I'll have more to say on this
after Wednesday, but suffice it to say that I'm not too happy that so much
is being left unresolved.
I dismiss all rationizations that some things are/will be addressed in
future TV-Movie, theatrical movie, books or Crusade - that wasn't the deal.
This was supposed to be a 5-year story, told in episodic TV format, with a
beginning, middle and END.
--
- John Tedesco
Angel A. Suárez
>again? With Mumy's comments in this
>article i wouldn't doubt it.
Well, seeing as next week is the last episode of the series, I think you're
right!
See ya Sounds and Pictures
Tony http://w3.one.net/~tngtony
Guaranteed 100% Smut Free
Return address altered to prevent SPAM.
>
Shadow Walker
It's only the most major and prevalent theme thoughout the entire
series. I would expect this sort of reaction from Star Trek fans.
------------------------------------------------------------
"He also felt that Lennier would have done the
opposite since Lennier was the type who would
always try to save everyone even a stranger.
Mumy also tried talking to the director before
the scene stating that he could not believe
Lennier would do this."
Fred McCann wrote:
"Yeah, I have to admit that this was really out of character. Lennier is
one of the cool characters on B5 and this seems like a bit of an
assassination. Furthermore, I dunno how they would work him back into
the plot ever again."
Berserker wrote:
" Yep. We all have our moments of weakness, but the typically involve
being in a bad mood and not holding open the door for someone. They
don't usually involve allowing the President of the Galaxy suffocate to
death thanks to a plot contrivance, especially when he's looking right
at and could later accuse you. IT was awful and wrecked the entire
episode."
Phil Fraering wrote:
"Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
He was acting under JMS's will.
And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
of disbelief.
This episode is the _Poodle Springs_ of the B5 universe. It never
happened."
Plain and Stupid wrote:
"SUBSCRIBE!"
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
>
> Would you enjoy a book you read that was the size of War and Peace, with a
> large cast of important characters, plenty of Hitchcockian "MacGuffins,"
> only to get to the end and realize that only about half of the story lines
> get resolved? Its almost like ending "Gone With the Wind" after the
> burning of Atlanta - you'd be left there wondering what happens to all the
> characters you were supposed to care about. I'll have more to say on this
> after Wednesday, but suffice it to say that I'm not too happy that so much
> is being left unresolved.
Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps off
and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It just
leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at Rest"...
...but I must remind you that we still have 45 minutes of epilogue in
"Sleeping in Light" to resolve whatever questions we have now.
Ted from Brooklyn
jere7my tho?rpe <kesh...@umich.edu> wrote in article
<keshlema-231...@pm467-06.dialip.mich.net>...
> In article
>
<2302127E5D5DF6BD.E8323E13...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>,
> "C. J. W." <prof...@airmail.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> It's not at all uncommon in fiction to suggest future paths for the
> characters; it's not a cheat, it's an option, there for the author to use
> or not. You're confusing "Finishing the story" with "Telling us
> everything that happens to the people in the story." It's frustrating,
> maybe, but the loose ends tell us that life goes on after the story ends,
> which is something Zathras spoke of in WWEII: "You are the...end of the
> story, and the beginning of the next great story." I may be in the
> minority here, but I like the fact that Garibaldi's rocky road to hell
> still stretches in front of him, and that Lennier has just begun a quest
> for redemption, and that Lyta and G'Kar are uneasy traveling companions.
> I want to see those stories, but if I never do it won't take away from
the
> story I _did_ see. A rosy ride into the sunset, all loose ends
tightened,
> would.
>
> ----j7y
>
If we're talking about some of the stories, fine - but some of the plot
lines that were so dramatically built up and left hanging are too much:
1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS for
first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
2) The Psi-War. A half season of Byron to explain why this war takes place
& the show ends before it starts?
3) Seeing the Keeper on Londo - with all of the excellent arguments on why
Delenn might not say anything to Sheridan, everyone seems to be missing one
point - *then why show it, if it has no purpose?*
4) Lennier - okay, maybe this might get answered Wednesday, but I'm not
betting on it. Rumors have it that Gaiman first suggested Lennier's
betrayal, and jms bought off on it. That would explain the lame way it was
handled last week, and now he's left dangling. Even Mumy is supposedly not
happy with the way this was brought off, and gave up trying to find the
motivation for it.
Now granted, jms has had some setbacks that he couldn't foresee - losing
O'Hare (for whatever reason), losing Thompson, losing Christian, and of
course, the uncertainty of Season 5. However - he had stated on more than
one occasion that he had trap doors for every character, and that the 5th
season thing didn't upset too much other than to cause SiL to be filmed a
year early. So there is really no excuse for leaving so much - that was
built up so highly - unaddressed. Just my two cents...
--
- John Tedesco
Paul G. Barnes
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in message <73cjjr$a0v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Would you enjoy a book you read that was the size of War and Peace, with
a
>> large cast of important characters, plenty of Hitchcockian "MacGuffins,"
>> only to get to the end and realize that only about half of the story
lines
>> get resolved? Its almost like ending "Gone With the Wind" after the
>> burning of Atlanta - you'd be left there wondering what happens to all
the
>> characters you were supposed to care about. I'll have more to say on
this
>> after Wednesday, but suffice it to say that I'm not too happy that so
much
>> is being left unresolved.
>
>Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps
off
>and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
>NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It
just
>leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at
Rest"...
Except that we do know what happens to Scarlett et al after Rhett tells her
to piss off. There was book *and* a movie in the last few years that
purported to be a sequel. A better analogy would be to say that we don't
know what happened to Rick and Louie at the end of Casablanca...
---
PGB
-...yet.
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73cjjr$a0v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Would you enjoy a book you read that was the size of War and Peace,
with a
> > large cast of important characters, plenty of Hitchcockian
"MacGuffins,"
> > only to get to the end and realize that only about half of the story
lines
> > get resolved? Its almost like ending "Gone With the Wind" after the
> > burning of Atlanta - you'd be left there wondering what happens to all
the
> > characters you were supposed to care about. I'll have more to say on
this
> > after Wednesday, but suffice it to say that I'm not too happy that so
much
> > is being left unresolved.
>
> Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps
off
> and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
> NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It
just
> leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at
Rest"...
>
> ...but I must remind you that we still have 45 minutes of epilogue in
> "Sleeping in Light" to resolve whatever questions we have now.
>
>
> Troy
>
Which is why I had started with that I wanted to wait until SiL to vent all
frustration - so that some of the lose ends might close by then.
On Gone With the Wind: Yes, I have seen the movie. Even quoted this as an
example. The point being, had it ended after the burning of Altanta, it
would have been a mistake. There was more story to tell, and it was done
eloquently. There are multiple story lines built up in B5 that will never
see the light of day on B5 - the series; they may get expounded on in
books, movies, etc., but that's not the same.
--
- John Tedesco
Ted from Brooklyn
Paul G. Barnes <_pba...@yahoo.com> wrote in article
<b%k62.1520$D24.1...@news1.atl>...
>
> Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in message
> Except that we do know what happens to Scarlett et al after Rhett tells
her
> to piss off. There was book *and* a movie in the last few years that
> purported to be a sequel. A better analogy would be to say that we don't
> know what happened to Rick and Louie at the end of Casablanca...
>
> ---
> PGB
> -...yet.
>
And that book never should have been written. We know as much as needed
for the story of Rhett & Scarlett. As for Casablanca, it was a story of
Rick & Elsa, and that story was also finished. Rick & Louie is another
story...
Of course you cannot follow the actions of every character all the way
through unless you intend to write the story up until each character
mentioned dies. That's pointless. But here's what you don't do - build up
for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War, and
then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no sequels
to this - Crusade is its own story.
You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This is my
complaint. Does Garibaldi go off and have an exiciting life? Maybe. And
they'd be great stories too, if they were were told, but here they were not
needed. In that respect, that's the analog to the GWtW story. His
character's story on B5 was ended appropriately. But the rest? No way.
"Inconceivable..."
"I do not think that word means what you think it means."
James C. Ellis
>
> I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
> disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
> Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
> temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
> at all.
From the sounds of it it came as an unpleasant surprise to Bill Mumy.
And I daresay that he would be a better judge of what came naturally to
that character than you or I.
(The same may certainly be said about JMS , but I have seen too much
that suggest that the walls between characters and author in his head
are not as thick as they once may have been...)
Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Shelton
The story told in the show 'Babylon 5' is very specifically the story of
the space-station called Babylon 5. What we've seen on the show 'Babylon
5' regarding the Psi-War (or any other story arc) is the intersection of
the stories of that story arc and the station (Babylon 5). When the
station (Babylon 5) is no longer part of the Psi-War story, the Psi-War
is no longer part of the story told on the show 'Babylon 5'.
> You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
> Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This is my
> complaint.
It was also used to gain information used against President Clark, and
it was used to boost the signal strength of Ivanova's 'Voice of the
Resistance' broadcasts I think.
And it was the lynch-pin of the 'Babylon Squared'/'War Without End'
stories. The time-distortion effects of the Great Machine enabled
Sinclair's trip into the past with Babylon 4. Therefore, the Great
Machine was directly responsible for Sinclair's transformation into
Valen, and the subsequent defeat of the shadows by the Vorlons/Minbari
roughly 1,000 years before the 2259-2261 shadow war.
- Brad
David Misener
<01be1726$5d0d4760$96f137a6@00a024e8e54a>...
>1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS for
>first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
>4) Lennier - okay, maybe this might get answered Wednesday, but I'm not
>betting on it. Rumors have it that Gaiman first suggested Lennier's
>betrayal, and jms bought off on it. That would explain the lame way it was
>handled last week, and now he's left dangling. Even Mumy is supposedly not
>happy with the way this was brought off, and gave up trying to find the
>motivation for it.
I think this one was handled before it even occured. In WWE, Delenn tells
Sheridan that there son is safe, and in last weeks Ep, Lennier said he would
come back when he found a way to attone for his fault. His attonement could
be taking care of David
BabyKosh (David Misener)
Daniel Tropea
>Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone >with the Wind"? Rhett
stomps off and leaves >Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what
>happens next? WE NEVER FIND OUT. Does >that mean it was a bad ending?
Of course not. >It just leaves a lot of room for speculation.
Troy have you forgotten it was resolved 50
years later in the novel Scarlet (1 t or 2?).
The book is canon for the GWTW novel.
So we do indeed find out. I never read Scarlet
so i do not know if there are unresolved issues
in that novel. Although there is supposidly
a book 3 coming out where Scarlet dies.
Dan <-- who truly cannot believe B5 has
switched to a GWTW thread.
Berserker
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Would you enjoy a book you read that was the size of War and Peace, with a
>
> > large cast of important characters, plenty of Hitchcockian "MacGuffins,"
> > only to get to the end and realize that only about half of the story lines
>
> > get resolved? Its almost like ending "Gone With the Wind" after the
> > burning of Atlanta - you'd be left there wondering what happens to all the
>
> > characters you were supposed to care about. I'll have more to say on this
>
> > after Wednesday, but suffice it to say that I'm not too happy that so much
>
> > is being left unresolved.
>
> Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps
> off
> and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
> NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It
> just
> leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at Rest"...
>
>
>
No, in GWTW Rhett leaving was the perfect dramatic conclusion to Scarlett and
her character. She had to fend for herself now. What happened with Lennier
represented nothing at all. It was merely a plot monkeywrench JMS wanted so
he tossed it in.
--
****************************************************
'Revolution' the People howls and cries
'Freedom, that's what we're needing'
We've needed it for centuries -
Our arteries are bleeding.
The stage is shaking. The audience rocks.
The whole thing is over by nine o'clock.
"When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball.
But today, I say we must move forward, not backward, upward,
not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling toward
freedom." - Kodos, Treehouse of Horror VII
''Even if you don't know what's going on, just knock someone out
and you can't go wrong." James Callier
Berserker
> Don't any of these people understand what the concept of a shadow is?
> It's only the most major and prevalent theme thoughout the entire
> series. I would expect this sort of reaction from Star Trek fans.
If you're pulling Jung on me then I'll have to kick your ass.
Berserker
> Ted from Brooklyn wrote:
>
>
> > You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
> > Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This is
> my
> > complaint.
>
> It was also used to gain information used against President Clark, and
> it was used to boost the signal strength of Ivanova's 'Voice of the
> Resistance' broadcasts I think.
Right. In both cases, it was a plot contrivance. I think we want to know
what the whole mystery to this deus ex machina is.
>
>
> And it was the lynch-pin of the 'Babylon Squared'/'War Without End'
> stories. The time-distortion effects of the Great Machine enabled
> Sinclair's trip into the past with Babylon 4. Therefore, the Great
> Machine was directly responsible for Sinclair's transformation into
> Valen, and the subsequent defeat of the shadows by the Vorlons/Minbari
> roughly 1,000 years before the 2259-2261 shadow war.
Yes, and little Zathras was there to keep everyone from getting unstuck in
time. Where was he for Billy Pilgrim?
>
>
> - Brad
Phil Fraering
> I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
> disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
> Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
> temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
> at all.
You're confusing motive with lack of sense of honor.
--
"I see a great hand, reaching out of the stars. Phil Fraering
The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds. The p...@globalreach.net
sounds of billions of people calling your name." /Will work for *tape*/
"My followers?" "Your victims."
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
>
> Which is why I had started with that I wanted to wait until SiL to vent all
> frustration - so that some of the lose ends might close by then.
A wise person...
> On Gone With the Wind: Yes, I have seen the movie. Even quoted this as an
> example. The point being, had it ended after the burning of Altanta, it
> would have been a mistake. There was more story to tell, and it was done
> eloquently.
Ditto after Rhett walks out and leaves Scarlett behind. There is A LOT more
story to tell (in fact, someone wrote a sequel), but the story ended at the
point that seemed appropriate. And it was good.
>There are multiple story lines built up in B5 that will never
> see the light of day on B5 - the series...
Ahhh yes, but as I said above, the same is true of "Gone with the Wind." So
why do you think GWTW is good but B5 bad even though both leave unresolved
storylines?
And why am I repeating myself? Didn't you read my previous message?
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
>
> for the story of Rhett & Scarlett. As for Casablanca, it was a story of
> Rick & Elsa, and that story was also finished. Rick & Louie is another
> story...
I like that phrase "that story was finished."
Babylon 5 is the story of the crew of Babylon 5 who fought off the Shadows,
and now that the crew have left Babylon 5 "that story is finished."
> for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War, and
> then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no sequels
> to this - Crusade is its own story.
You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the Psi-War.
That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from push-over to
deadly. And it accomplished that.
> You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
> Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This is my
> complaint.
To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway... He was
not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to be a
time travel machine for Babylon 4.
> Does Garibaldi go off and have an exiciting life? Maybe. And
> they'd be great stories too, if they were were told, but here they were not
> needed. In that respect, that's the analog to the GWtW story. His
> character's story on B5 was ended appropriately. But the rest? No way.
What do you mean no way? Londo became emperor. Lyta went off to find a
homeworld for her people. G'Kar joined her to get away from his people.
Sheridan and Delenn created a new capital for the new Alliance that they
worked so hard to build. Doc Franklin was promoted. Ivanova is off mourning
Marcus somewhere.
So, what do you mean that other characters' stories did not end
appropriately???
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
> Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote
> >Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps
> off
> >and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
> >NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It
> just
> >leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at
> Rest"...
>
> to piss off. There was book *and* a movie in the last few years that
The sequel doesn't count. Gone with the Wind stood on its own for FIFTY
YEARS without any sequel. So, for those fifty years, the final thing any
audience saw was Rhett walking away and Scarlett stubbornly holding on to the
land. The End. And a good End. Good enough to satisfy audiences and make
GWTW the best-selling film of all time.
Sure, MGM didn't provide ALL the answers: What becomes of Scarlett? Does she
hold on to Tara? Does she marry again? What about Rhett? Do either of them
have children? The story continues, but the movie ends.
B5: "Object at Rest" shows that the story continues... but it still gives a
satisfactory ending. The B5/Shadow War story is closed. All that remains is
the epilogue.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
> > disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
> > Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
> > temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
> > at all.
>
> And I daresay that he would be a better judge of what came naturally to
> that character than you or I.
Maybe... and maybe he just assumed that Lennier would be a hero in the end and
overcome his jealousy... but he didn't, so Mumy is disappointed. Too bad. :)
Go back and look at the episode where Sheridan returns from Z'ha'dum. Notice
that while everyone else is cheering, Lennier is almost sneering. The look
on his face says, "Oh great... HE'S back. Now I never get to Delenn. Why
couldn't he stay dead?"
In Season 4 and 5, we see that jealousy expand bit by bit with Lennier
becoming more and more uncomfortable around Sheridan and sometimes snubbing
him in conversation. It was clear that sooner or later, Lennier would do
SOMETHING against Sheridan. Why Bill Mumy did not see this strikes me as
hubris on his part.
> (The same may certainly be said about JMS , but I have seen too much
> that suggest that the walls between characters and author in his head
> are not as thick as they once may have been...)
Well, there's certainly lots of foreshadowing during season 4 and 5 for
Lennier's jealous act. Clearly JMS had this in mind for quite some time.
On Bill Mumy's negative reaction, it reminds me of the actor's reaction who
played Lord Refa. When he learned that he was to be killed, he asked JMS,
"Didn't I do a good job? Why are you killing off my character?" The answer
was that he did an EXCELLENT job, and that's why he's getting such a great
death scene!
Apparently, actors identify themselves with their characters, and they want
their characters to live on and redeem themselves. Unfortunately, not all
characters can be good guys. Not even characters like Lennier. And that's
probably why Mumy was disappointed. He wanted to play the good guy. :)
David Ellis
>> I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
>> disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
>> Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
>> temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
>> at all.
"James C. Ellis" <ell...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> From the sounds of it it came as an unpleasant surprise to Bill Mumy.
>And I daresay that he would be a better judge of what came naturally to
>that character than you or I.
>
> (The same may certainly be said about JMS , but I have seen too much
>that suggest that the walls between characters and author in his head
>are not as thick as they once may have been...)
Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan was not in JMS' original game plan. I
read that Neil Gaiman added this thread when he wrote "Day of the
Dead", and JMS was left to carry it through to completion.
I can see where Bill Mumy would feel uncomfortable. After all, the
Rangers live for the One and die for the One. And in my opinion,
unrequited love doesn't quite make a sufficient motivation for the
betrayal we saw.
One person posted that Lennier may have frozen because of his previous
experience with a coolant leak. That's not how I saw what was aired,
but it would have been far better to have seen him flash back and
panic, then feel the guilt. Imagine failing in real life so soon
after passing all the Ranger tests. That would have been an irony
with a solid ring of truth.
--
David J Ellis
92 Wilson Drive / Framingham, MA 01702
d...@mkitso.ultranet.com
TMB
>> Season 5, Franchise Building
>
>In that case, EVERY book ever written has been a franchise builder, because
>they ALL have loose ends, characters that continue to live on even after the
>final chapter.
>
ok...I can go with that in very simplistic terms. And you point is...?
I was indirectly commenting on JMS once saying something about no
spin-offs, no franchises to build up and self-destruct like trek...(or
words to that effect, Troy)
Sergey Bukhman
TMB wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:31:24 -0500, kesh...@umich.edu (jere7my
> tho?rpe) wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><2302127E5D5DF6BD.E8323E13...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> >"C. J. W." <prof...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >
> >*Granted but to wait until the second to the last eps to start introducing new
> >*subplots is at best silly and at worse stupid...He had the whole damn season 5
> >*where NOTHING happened and JMS did dip.
> >
> > "But that's a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness
> >and into grief and beyond it...Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale
> >still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?"
> > "No, they never end as tales," said Frodo. "But the people in them
> >come, and go when their part's ended. Our part will end later--or
> >sooner."
> > "And then we can have some rest and some sleep," said Sam.
> >
> > ----J.R.R. Tolkien, LotR IV, ch. 8
> >
> > JMS said that "Babylon 5" would tell a story, and that it would end
> >after five years. He never said that it would tell all the stories in the
> >B5 universe, or that all the stories we hear about would end in five
> >years--just that we would see a story, the story of the last of the
> >Babylon stations. After Wednesday, we'll have seen that story. All the
> >unresolved subplots, zipping off into all directions, lead _away_ from
> >Babylon 5; they let us know that the characters will still be doing things
> >after the series ends, but they're not part of the story of the station,
> >part of the story JMS was telling. Maybe we'll see them resolved later;
> >maybe we won't. JMS has left himself options for telling new stories with
> >the characters we already know, which is nice. But they will be _their_
> >stories, not B5's story.
> >
> > It's not at all uncommon in fiction to suggest future paths for the
> >characters; it's not a cheat, it's an option, there for the author to use
> >or not. You're confusing "Finishing the story" with "Telling us
> >everything that happens to the people in the story." It's frustrating,
> >maybe, but the loose ends tell us that life goes on after the story ends,
> >which is something Zathras spoke of in WWEII: "You are the...end of the
> >story, and the beginning of the next great story." I may be in the
> >minority here, but I like the fact that Garibaldi's rocky road to hell
> >still stretches in front of him, and that Lennier has just begun a quest
> >for redemption, and that Lyta and G'Kar are uneasy traveling companions.
> >I want to see those stories, but if I never do it won't take away from the
> >story I _did_ see. A rosy ride into the sunset, all loose ends tightened,
> >would.
> >
>
> So to say it in a few less lines:
>
> Season 5, Franchise Building
> Figure out where I'm not to Email me
So was LoTR franchise building?
--
Sergey
---------
When you are born you're afraid of the darkness
And then you're afraid of the light
But I'm not afraid when I dance with my Shadow
This time I'm gonna get it right
-Steven Tyler
David DeRubeis
Daniel Tropea wrote:
>
>
> Troy have you forgotten it was resolved 50
> years later in the novel Scarlet (1 t or 2?).
>
> The book is canon for the GWTW novel.
> So we do indeed find out. I never read Scarlet
> so i do not know if there are unresolved issues
> in that novel. Although there is supposidly
> a book 3 coming out where Scarlet dies.
>
Why is it "canon"? It wasn't authorized by the original author, it was
just a cheap knock-off by the publisher to grab some quick bucks.
David
jere7my tho?rpe
*ok...I can go with that in very simplistic terms. And you point is...?
*I was indirectly commenting on JMS once saying something about no
*spin-offs, no franchises to build up and self-destruct like trek...
JMS has been talking about the Crusade spin-off since season 2 or
so. You can find his actual quotes about franchises at the Lurker's
Guide; nothing in them precludes Crusade.
----j7y
******************************* <*> *******************************
jere7my tho?rpe "Being an Osmond, you must
c/o kesh...@umich.edu have many arch-enemies."
(734) 769-0913 ----Space Ghost
Reverend Sean O'Hara
> If you're pulling Jung on me then I'll have to kick your ass.
Berserker, I wouldn't pull your Jung for a million dollars.
--
Reverend Sean O'Hara
You two can be an ordained minister: http://ulc.org/ulc
"You are anarchists in the realm of thought."
Jack London
The Iron Heel
Aubrey W. Adkins
>
> "James C. Ellis" <ell...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> > Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
> > > disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
> > > Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
> > > temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
> > > at all.
> >
> > From the sounds of it it came as an unpleasant surprise to Bill Mumy.
> > And I daresay that he would be a better judge of what came naturally to
> > that character than you or I.
>
> overcome his jealousy... but he didn't, so Mumy is disappointed. Too bad. :)
>
> Go back and look at the episode where Sheridan returns from Z'ha'dum. Notice
> that while everyone else is cheering, Lennier is almost sneering. The look
> on his face says, "Oh great... HE'S back. Now I never get to Delenn. Why
> couldn't he stay dead?"
>
> In Season 4 and 5, we see that jealousy expand bit by bit with Lennier
> becoming more and more uncomfortable around Sheridan and sometimes snubbing
> him in conversation. It was clear that sooner or later, Lennier would do
> SOMETHING against Sheridan. Why Bill Mumy did not see this strikes me as
> hubris on his part.
>
> > that suggest that the walls between characters and author in his head
> > are not as thick as they once may have been...)
>
> Lennier's jealous act. Clearly JMS had this in mind for quite some time.
>
> On Bill Mumy's negative reaction, it reminds me of the actor's reaction who
> played Lord Refa. When he learned that he was to be killed, he asked JMS,
> "Didn't I do a good job? Why are you killing off my character?" The answer
> was that he did an EXCELLENT job, and that's why he's getting such a great
> death scene!
>
> Apparently, actors identify themselves with their characters, and they want
> their characters to live on and redeem themselves. Unfortunately, not all
> characters can be good guys. Not even characters like Lennier. And that's
> probably why Mumy was disappointed. He wanted to play the good guy. :)
>
> Troy
>
>
they contain. After this explanation, Delennier's actions are not so out
of line. He was given an opportunity to correct what he saw as a major
mistake on Delenn's part and availed himself of it. It only required
that he do nothing. At that time Delenn is ranger one, apparently for
the moment it took to turn and leave, he forgot his duty to his comrade.
Maybe his mind did the math and accepted the death of a comrade if it
was for a greater good, that of correcting Delenn's hideous, in his
mind, mistake.
Aubrey
Aubrey W. Adkins
diaries.
Aubrey
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> I can see where Bill Mumy would feel uncomfortable. After all, the
> Rangers live for the One and die for the One. And in my opinion,
> unrequited love doesn't quite make a sufficient motivation for the
> betrayal we saw.
You never heard of "crimes of passion"?
Oh, and Sheridan is NOT the One. Currently, DELENN is the One. She is
Entil'zha. Lennier serves Delenn not Sheridan.
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73d0ps$l2c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
> > Which is why I had started with that I wanted to wait until SiL to vent
all
> > frustration - so that some of the lose ends might close by then.
>
> A wise person...
>
>
Thank you. I try.
>
> > On Gone With the Wind: Yes, I have seen the movie. Even quoted this as
an
> > example. The point being, had it ended after the burning of Altanta,
it
> > would have been a mistake. There was more story to tell, and it was
done
> > eloquently.
>
> Ditto after Rhett walks out and leaves Scarlett behind. There is A LOT
more
> story to tell (in fact, someone wrote a sequel), but the story ended at
the
> point that seemed appropriate. And it was good.
>
>
There really wasn't much more to tell, which is why the sequel stunk. It
barely touched on the major themes of GWtW, but instead followed new
characters in the GWtW universe...
Hey wait a minute, that sounds like Crusade!
>
> >There are multiple story lines built up in B5 that will never
> > see the light of day on B5 - the series...
>
> Ahhh yes, but as I said above, the same is true of "Gone with the Wind."
So
> why do you think GWTW is good but B5 bad even though both leave
unresolved
> storylines?
>
>
> And why am I repeating myself? Didn't you read my previous message?
> Troy
>
Apparently you didn't read mine. GWtW's story was over. What's being done
with the Psi-War is analogous to having Scarlett & Rhett's daughter in a
coma ath the end of GWtW.
Ted from Brooklyn
Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in article
<365ABC91...@norfolk.infi.net>...
> Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > "James C. Ellis" <ell...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> > > Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >
[snip]> >
> >
> In OaR Delenn tells Sheridan she has read Lennier's diaries and what
> they contain. After this explanation, Delennier's actions are not so out
Is this the B5 version of Tuvix?---------------^
> of line. He was given an opportunity to correct what he saw as a major
> mistake on Delenn's part and availed himself of it. It only required
> that he do nothing. At that time Delenn is ranger one, apparently for
> the moment it took to turn and leave, he forgot his duty to his comrade.
> Maybe his mind did the math and accepted the death of a comrade if it
> was for a greater good, that of correcting Delenn's hideous, in his
> mind, mistake.
> Aubrey
>
It felt forced, as if it had to be thrown in at the last moment. There
were other ways for him to betray the Anla'Shok - we've seen as much in his
dealings with Montoya - Lennier was one who would sacrifice his life and
standing to defend others. He could have disgraced himself by following
what he believed to be right, and have it have drastic consequences.
--
- John Tedesco
Ted from Brooklyn
David DeRubeis <deru...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<365A6ADB...@worldnet.att.net>...
It wasn't canon - it was an authorized sequel by the holders of the
author's estate.
And it was bad.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:44:22 GMT, Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Season 5, Franchise Building
> >
> >In that case, EVERY book ever written has been a franchise builder, because
> >they ALL have loose ends, characters that continue to live on even after the
> >final chapter.
> >
My point is: Just because B5 ends without answering all the questions does not
make it a bad ending. Many stories end with certain questions un-resolved.
> I was indirectly commenting on JMS once saying something about no
> spin-offs, no franchises to build up and self-destruct like trek...(or
> words to that effect, Troy)
Were you? I do not recall you saying that before...
JMS has said since the beginning that Babylon 5 would have ONE and only one
sequel. So far, he has kept his word.
Troy
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone with the Wind"? Rhett stomps
> > off
> > and leaves Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what happens next? WE
> > NEVER FIND OUT. Does that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not. It
> > just
> > leaves a lot of room for speculation. Ditto the end of "Objects at Rest"...
> >
> >
> >
>
> her character. She had to fend for herself now.
You know, when I first saw the movie, I thought the moment where Rhett leaves
Scarlett just outside Atlanta was the end. I actually started to change
channels but the word "intermission" flashed on the screen. So, if the writer
had wanted to, she could have ended the movie right there. The result would
still be the same, more or less: Rhett leaves Scarlett and Scarlett must fend
for herself.
> What happened with Lennier
> represented nothing at all. It was merely a plot monkeywrench JMS wanted so
> he tossed it in.
Well, I think it was there for a purpose. I think Lennier's ultimate destiny
will be resolved in "Sleeping in Light." OK, it might not answer questions
such as "How did he redeem himself?" but we'll know whether or not he
succeeded in reconciling himself with Delenn and Sheridan.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
dctr...@webtv.net (Daniel Tropea) wrote:
> Troy wrote:
>
> >Uh... have you seen the last scene of "Gone
> >with the Wind"? Rhett stomps off and leaves
> >Scarlet behind to fend for herself. So, what
> >happens next? WE NEVER FIND OUT. Does
> >that mean it was a bad ending? Of course not.
> >It just leaves a lot of room for speculation.
>
> years later in the novel Scarlet (1 t or 2?).
As I said in another message, the novel and the movie Gone with the Wind stood
alone, by itself, on its own merits, for over 50 years! It does not need a
sequel.
> The book is canon for the GWTW novel.
How can that be? It was not even written by the same author! As far as I'm
concerned, the only reason "Scarlett" was written was because some author
wanted to cash in and get rich.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
> switched to a GWTW thread.
BTW, this is not a GWTW thread. It is a comparative literature thread between
Babylon 5 and Gone with the Wind.
There's nothing wrong with that is there? I mean, we are allowed to compare
B5 to other literary works from folks such as Shakespeare, Dickens, and
Hemingway aren't we?
I would certainly hope so. After all, JMS did not write Babylon 5 in a
vacuum, and neither are we watching it in a vacuum. All of these works
influenced the writing and should also influence the viewing of the Babylon 5
"novel for television".
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73d1et$lh5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > And that book never should have been written. We know as much as
needed
> > for the story of Rhett & Scarlett. As for Casablanca, it was a story
of
> > Rick & Elsa, and that story was also finished. Rick & Louie is another
> > story...
>
> I like that phrase "that story was finished."
>
And it was - Rick went on to bigger & better with Louie, and Elsa went off
to be the first lady of the French Resistance.
> Babylon 5 is the story of the crew of Babylon 5 who fought off the
Shadows,
> and now that the crew have left Babylon 5 "that story is finished."
>
If there wasn't tremendous build-up of several plot lines, I would agree.
>
> > for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War, and
> > then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no
sequels
> > to this - Crusade is its own story.
>
> You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
Psi-War.
> That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from push-over
to
> deadly. And it accomplished that.
>
>
It made her deadly and then........?
>
>
>
> > You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
> > Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This
is my
> > complaint.
>
> To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway... He
was
> not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to be a
> time travel machine for Babylon 4.
>
>
Yeah, but they brought in John Schuck. He *did* make the GM a bit comedic,
and maybe that's why jms downplayed future GM stories...
>
>
> > Does Garibaldi go off and have an exiciting life? Maybe. And
> > they'd be great stories too, if they were were told, but here they were
not
> > needed. In that respect, that's the analog to the GWtW story. His
> > character's story on B5 was ended appropriately. But the rest? No
way.
>
> What do you mean no way? Londo became emperor. Lyta went off to find a
> homeworld for her people. G'Kar joined her to get away from his people.
> Sheridan and Delenn created a new capital for the new Alliance that they
> worked so hard to build. Doc Franklin was promoted. Ivanova is off
mourning
> Marcus somewhere.
>
> So, what do you mean that other characters' stories did not end
> appropriately???
>
> Troy
>
The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt dangling,
and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't have
high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
2) The Psi War
3) The Great Machine
That's 5 items ( when you include the 2 character stories above) right
there off the top that I had hoped to see resolved by tomorrow night that
probably will not get addressed.
Two other things I wanted to know...
1) Why is Zack still employed?
2) Where can I get the Lochley holo-image for home study?
--
- John Tedesco
TMB
tho?rpe) wrote:
>In article <365a2f38...@news.ro.com>, tmbr...@ro.com.ru (TMB) wrote:
>
>*ok...I can go with that in very simplistic terms. And you point is...?
>*I was indirectly commenting on JMS once saying something about no
>*spin-offs, no franchises to build up and self-destruct like trek...
>
> JMS has been talking about the Crusade spin-off since season 2 or
>so. You can find his actual quotes about franchises at the Lurker's
>Guide; nothing in them precludes Crusade.
Now dig farther back and read what I said he said...go back to the
pilot and before...
He started talking spin-off after it was renewed for season two...
TMB
>> I was indirectly commenting on JMS once saying something about no
>> words to that effect, Troy)
>
>Were you? I do not recall you saying that before...
>
Ted from Brooklyn
story, with the dramatic burning of Altanta, was easily compared to B5 in
that what people came away with after seeing GWtW was that burning scene -
easily the most dramatic. But the story was about the events that led to
that, the burning itself/civil war, and the events that happened after as a
result. In that respect, it is a great model for B5, and lends itself
easily to comparison. After all, don't both stories follow the same
pattern?
1) the buildup of dramatic tension
2) the tearing down of old systems to release that tension
3) the repercussions of that release
--
- John Tedesco
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73epqn$uiv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <1512-36...@newsd-231.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> dctr...@webtv.net (Daniel Tropea) wrote:
> >
> > Dan <-- who truly cannot believe B5 has
> > switched to a GWTW thread.
>
>
> BTW, this is not a GWTW thread. It is a comparative literature thread
between
> Babylon 5 and Gone with the Wind.
>
> There's nothing wrong with that is there? I mean, we are allowed to
compare
> B5 to other literary works from folks such as Shakespeare, Dickens, and
> Hemingway aren't we?
>
> I would certainly hope so. After all, JMS did not write Babylon 5 in a
> vacuum, and neither are we watching it in a vacuum. All of these works
> influenced the writing and should also influence the viewing of the
Babylon 5
> "novel for television".
>
> Troy
>
TMB
<ser...@netropolis.net> wrote:
>So was LoTR franchise building?
It's been argued that way, but in the context of B5 and Trek, we're
usually talking about multiple spin-offs, huge support for
related merchandising lines, and basically continuing the production
for the sole purpose of generating increasing profits. As with trek,
the problem comes from cranking out episode after episode to meet
quota, sacrificing quality for quantity.
This as opposed to no longer simply to see a life long dream come into
being.
TMB
>How can that be? It was not even written by the same author!
So with your reasoning, anything not written by JMS can't be canon to
the series either, right Troy?
Aubrey W. Adkins
or cheat if it could be justified as helping another minbari save face.
Remember, we live for the one, we die for the one. I could call that a
small derringer on the wall.
Aubrey
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> d...@mkitso.ultranet.com (David Ellis) wrote:
> > I can see where Bill Mumy would feel uncomfortable. After all, the
> > Rangers live for the One and die for the One. And in my opinion,
> > unrequited love doesn't quite make a sufficient motivation for the
> > betrayal we saw.
>
> You never heard of "crimes of passion"?
>
> Oh, and Sheridan is NOT the One. Currently, DELENN is the One. She is
> Entil'zha. Lennier serves Delenn not Sheridan.
>
LisaB
>> "C. J. W." <prof...@airmail.net> wrote:
>>
>> It's not at all uncommon in fiction to suggest future paths for the
>> characters; it's not a cheat, it's an option, there for the author to use
>> or not. You're confusing "Finishing the story" with "Telling us
>> everything that happens to the people in the story."
>
>If we're talking about some of the stories, fine - but some of the plot
>lines that were so dramatically built up and left hanging are too much:
>1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS for
>first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
>2) The Psi-War. A half season of Byron to explain why this war takes place
>& the show ends before it starts?
>3) Seeing the Keeper on Londo - with all of the excellent arguments on why
>Delenn might not say anything to Sheridan, everyone seems to be missing one
>point - *then why show it, if it has no purpose?*
>4) Lennier - okay, maybe this might get answered Wednesday, but I'm not
>betting on it.
Yes, a few things may get answered Wednesday, so this may be slightly
premature, but I think it would be interesting to tally up the loose
ends or storylines that seemed to be going someplace, then didn't. If
you want to play the game, feel free to suggest what you thought WOULD
have been the outcome.
Oh, and by me, anyway, references to comics or novels don't count in
terms of tieing up plot lines, AND THEY NEVER WILL! ;-p ;-p ;-p ;-p
My own questions, to add to Ted's:
5) What the hell about Caroline? She was Bester's raison d'etre for a
whole season, and nada. Is she still on the ship, has Bester given up
hope, or what?
6) What about Lise's child? She's become heir to a very powerful
empire. Even if Edgars didn't care about Lise's grief, I'd think
Garibaldi would. In Real Life, I'd expect people would put available
resources to work to get the kid back into their lives, for Pete's
sake. You know, between fighting the Forces of Evil and stuff...it
would figure big, a shawdow over whatever happiness there may be.
7) Satai Delenn's past. I don't believe, AFAIK, that Sheridan is any
closer to knowing about her part in the war, etc., than he ever was.
There was an awful lot of setup, again, highlighting that secrecy on
Delenn's part. Sure, some of it was building up to her discovery of
her relationship to Valen, but there's still that huge SECRET between
her and Sheridan, who has been burned by her secrets before...
8) Lyndistry (SP?), Ambassador Cotto's sweet, romantic, psychotic
intended. As a dangling loose end, IMO, it's not that egregious, but
I'm curious. Would have loved to see her reunion with a Vir who
finally has found his maturity and his resolve.
9) G'Kar's eye. In the future, we've seen him without the
prosthesis, with the implication that he is once again "property" of
the Centauri, or their keepers. So how does THAT happen?
10) Centauri prime still in flames, 18 years after it's period of
political isolation and thrall to the shadow minions begins. Explain.
LisaB
James C. Ellis
>
> Yes, and little Zathras was there to keep everyone from getting
> unstuck in time. Where was he for Billy Pilgrim?
Billy Pilgrim didn't deserve it because he was a wuss. :)
Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Me? Lady, I'm your worst nightmare - a pumpkin with a gun.
[...] Euminides this! " - Mervyn, the Sandman #66
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Cochran
>My point is: Just because B5 ends without answering all the questions does not
>make it a bad ending. Many stories end with certain questions un-resolved.
I think it's the opinion of some that the WRONG questions
were left unresolved. With so much of seasons 4 and 5 setting up
events that took place or will occur offscreen (Mars setting itself
up, the Telepath war, the EA being rebuilt, the establishment of
the ISA in anything other than a military light, the personal
story of John, Delenn and David) it seems awfully annoying to end
before some of the good stuff which we KNOW will happen.
--
This is a .sig proxy.
js...@bev.net
*--Joe--*
Ted from Brooklyn
David Misener <dmis...@lords.com> wrote in article
<73cq6f$s6d$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
> Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
> <01be1726$5d0d4760$96f137a6@00a024e8e54a>...
> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS
for
> >first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
>
> Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
>
So we take this huge planet, with this unbelievably awesome machine on it,
and use it like a tire jack. Not very efficient.
> >4) Lennier - okay, maybe this might get answered Wednesday, but I'm not
> >betting on it. Rumors have it that Gaiman first suggested Lennier's
> >betrayal, and jms bought off on it. That would explain the lame way it
was
> >handled last week, and now he's left dangling. Even Mumy is supposedly
not
> >happy with the way this was brought off, and gave up trying to find the
> >motivation for it.
> I think this one was handled before it even occured. In WWE, Delenn
tells
> Sheridan that there son is safe, and in last weeks Ep, Lennier said he
would
> come back when he found a way to attone for his fault. His attonement
could
> be taking care of David
>
The problem there is the supposed way in which Lennier's betrayal came
about *on the page* - the story goes that Neil Gaiman suggested it when
writing the tete-a-tete between Lennier and Morden. So you're applying a
line from a previous season to justify a situation from this season. It
might very well turn out that way, but I don't buy it.
--
- John Tedesco
> BabyKosh (David Misener)
>
>
>
BabyKosh (D Misener)
Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
>
>
>David Misener <dmis...@lords.com> wrote in article
><73cq6f$s6d$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
>> Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
>> <01be1726$5d0d4760$96f137a6@00a024e8e54a>...
>> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS
>for
>> >first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
>>
>> Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
>>
>So we take this huge planet, with this unbelievably awesome machine on it,
>and use it like a tire jack. Not very efficient.
It was built for a specific purpose. Remember Draal can see into the
future, so he will know if he is needed.
BabyKosh
Sergey Bukhman
TMB wrote:
> Figure out where I'm not to Email me
So you are saying that JMS is in it for the money? That contradicts
everything I know about him. And I have no reason to believe that he has
spent the last 5 years lying to us.
--
Sergey
---------
When you are born you're afraid of the darkness
And then you're afraid of the light
But I'm not afraid when I dance with my Shadow
This time I'm gonna get it right
-Steven Tyler
Sergey Bukhman
LisaB wrote:
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>
> >> "C. J. W." <prof...@airmail.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's not at all uncommon in fiction to suggest future paths for the
> >> characters; it's not a cheat, it's an option, there for the author to use
> >> or not. You're confusing "Finishing the story" with "Telling us
> >> everything that happens to the people in the story."
> >
> >If we're talking about some of the stories, fine - but some of the plot
> >lines that were so dramatically built up and left hanging are too much:
> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS for
> >first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
> >2) The Psi-War. A half season of Byron to explain why this war takes place
> >& the show ends before it starts?
> >3) Seeing the Keeper on Londo - with all of the excellent arguments on why
> >Delenn might not say anything to Sheridan, everyone seems to be missing one
> >point - *then why show it, if it has no purpose?*
> >4) Lennier - okay, maybe this might get answered Wednesday, but I'm not
> >betting on it.
>
> Yes, a few things may get answered Wednesday, so this may be slightly
> premature, but I think it would be interesting to tally up the loose
> ends or storylines that seemed to be going someplace, then didn't. If
> you want to play the game, feel free to suggest what you thought WOULD
> have been the outcome.
>
Well I have a few questions myself, but I'll try to answer your's too.
>
> Oh, and by me, anyway, references to comics or novels don't count in
> terms of tieing up plot lines, AND THEY NEVER WILL! ;-p ;-p ;-p ;-p
>
> My own questions, to add to Ted's:
>
> 5) What the hell about Caroline? She was Bester's raison d'etre for a
> whole season, and nada. Is she still on the ship, has Bester given up
> hope, or what?
>
She's still in the icebox.
>
> 6) What about Lise's child? She's become heir to a very powerful
> empire. Even if Edgars didn't care about Lise's grief, I'd think
> Garibaldi would. In Real Life, I'd expect people would put available
> resources to work to get the kid back into their lives, for Pete's
> sake. You know, between fighting the Forces of Evil and stuff...it
> would figure big, a shawdow over whatever happiness there may be.
I agree. I think JMS just forgot about her. I know I did. :)
>
> 7) Satai Delenn's past. I don't believe, AFAIK, that Sheridan is any
> closer to knowing about her part in the war, etc., than he ever was.
> There was an awful lot of setup, again, highlighting that secrecy on
> Delenn's part. Sure, some of it was building up to her discovery of
> her relationship to Valen, but there's still that huge SECRET between
> her and Sheridan, who has been burned by her secrets before...
JMS said that she will never tell him.
>
> 8) Lyndistry (SP?), Ambassador Cotto's sweet, romantic, psychotic
> intended. As a dangling loose end, IMO, it's not that egregious, but
> I'm curious. Would have loved to see her reunion with a Vir who
> finally has found his maturity and his resolve.
Indeed. :)
>
> 9) G'Kar's eye. In the future, we've seen him without the
> prosthesis, with the implication that he is once again "property" of
> the Centauri, or their keepers. So how does THAT happen?
>
> 10) Centauri prime still in flames, 18 years after it's period of
> political isolation and thrall to the shadow minions begins. Explain.
>
Those two, I'm certain will be adressed in SiL.
My Questions:
11)Whatever happened to Sheridan's sister? Is she alive, dead? Why wasn't she
used as a bargaining chip like his father? She looks like a walking and talking
plot device to bring the Anna issue out in Sheridan and set up Z'had'um.
12)Ditto Franklin's dad. What side was he on in the war?
13)This is not really a loose end, more of a direct question: how the hell did
G'kar have sex with a centauri woman???
14)The everlasting question of Sinclair's girlfriend (can't remember the name).
>
> LisaB
BabyKosh (D Misener)
Sergey Bukhman wrote in message <365B972B...@netropolis.net>...
>14)The everlasting question of Sinclair's girlfriend (can't remember the
name).
OK, I think I can answer this one. See Novel #9 (done by JMS's wife).
She disappeared into the Time Rift in Sector 14 in a Ranger Mission
And in DC Comics In Valen's Name #3 (don't have yet, but heard about)
Valen says "I've found her!" Refering to Sakai
BabyKosh
Ian Galbraith
<te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
[snip]
:> To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway... He
:was
:> not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to be a
:> time travel machine for Babylon 4.
:Yeah, but they brought in John Schuck. He *did* make the GM a bit comedic,
:and maybe that's why jms downplayed future GM stories...
IIRC John Shuck was the one who went to Broadway, or something like that.
Louis Turenne later re-appeared as Brother Theo.
[snip]
:The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
:characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt dangling,
:and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't have
:high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
:1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
Resolved in SiL?
:2) The Psi War
:3) The Great Machine
With both of these I agree. The telepath war is just JMS's excuse for
future movies. The origin of the GM should defintiely have been told. Its
not like he didn't have the opportunity in S5. As it stands its simply a
plot device.
[snip]
Be Seeing You
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination
is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination
encircles the world." - Albert Einstein
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:5) What the hell about Caroline? She was Bester's raison d'etre for a
:whole season, and nada. Is she still on the ship, has Bester given up
:hope, or what?
She was sent back to Earth. Her fate is in the hands of Earth doctors now.
[..]
:7) Satai Delenn's past. I don't believe, AFAIK, that Sheridan is any
:closer to knowing about her part in the war, etc., than he ever was.
:There was an awful lot of setup, again, highlighting that secrecy on
:Delenn's part. Sure, some of it was building up to her discovery of
:her relationship to Valen, but there's still that huge SECRET between
:her and Sheridan, who has been burned by her secrets before...
I don't see that there's any more to resolve. It was the explanation for
her motives from the beginning of the series. She probably feels she's
atoned for her past mistakes and that nothing more would be served by
dredging up the past. I doubt if other Minbari would mention it to
Sheridan, although maybe Lennier would to try and break them up.
[..]
:9) G'Kar's eye. In the future, we've seen him without the
:prosthesis, with the implication that he is once again "property" of
:the Centauri, or their keepers. So how does THAT happen?
Resolved in SiL?
:10) Centauri prime still in flames, 18 years after it's period of
:political isolation and thrall to the shadow minions begins. Explain.
Again SiL?
Michael Johnson
<te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>And it was - Rick went on to bigger & better with Louie, and Elsa went off
>to be the first lady of the French Resistance.
>
>> Babylon 5 is the story of the crew of Babylon 5 who fought off the
>> Shadows, and now that the crew have left Babylon 5 "that story is finished."
>
>If there wasn't tremendous build-up of several plot lines, I would agree.
Really? There was a buildup of plot lines? Not even. That is not what
this season has been about. I suppose it would have been just a bit
tacky if JMS had slapped the title "Epilogue" on this season, it sure
would have fit. This season and the final episode of last season have
always been about just one thing. Taking all the things that were
affected from the start of the series to climax in the big story and
laying out what happened to as many of them as possible as a result of
the big story.
Lets take an example(i'll try to gloss over the details as i assume
you are at least familiar with it), in the story we have the
telepaths. This arc starts with Mind War and builds through to Ship of
Tears where it splices into the Shadow War, the telepaths are then
used as offensive weapons to fight the shadows, and Garibaldi is then
captured. Upon being captured, Garibaldi is implanted and is forced to
work for Bester without his knowing it. Over the course of the next
season he ends up becoming estranged from the people he knows, ends up
taking work on Mars for Edgars, unconvers the telepathic virus and
ends up turning that information over to Bester, who then removes the
plant. Bester then eliminates Edgars and the telepaths are safe,
Garibaldi redeems himself by leading the rescue of Sheridan and then
saves Lise from the Mars mafia. At this point we are left with, ok...
that was neat, but what the hell happened to the characters as a
result of all this? You don't necessarily need to KNOW, which is why
the fifth season was not absolutely needed to tell the overall story,
but it rounds things out. Over the course of the next year, Mr. G
becomes head of covert intelligence as a result of redeeming himself,
this then leads to the revelation that he can't hurt Bester. As a
control freak, the problem he has is if he is FORCED to not be in
control, when that happens he hits the sauce and uses the last half of
the season to start a war, get drunk a lot, and get himself fired. At
the same time, you have the rogues that were generated as a result of
Psi Corps' tactics showing up on the station to continue the telepath
arc. They have allready been established in the series and therefore
when they show up on the station as a result of the new alliance, it
isn't really a stretch. They then spend the first half of the season
establishing themselves, which leads to the recruitment of Lyta, the
revelation to them that the Vorlons created them, and the alienation
of pretty much all the ambassadors in their quest for a homeworld.
This then dovetails back to Bester in that he has to be called back in
order to take them home. He attempts to do so, and ends up causing
them to commit suicide, Lyta then spends the rest of the season
attempting to generate support and generate terrorist attacks back
home, realizes she is inadequate for the task, and merges the two
lines with the deal with Mr. G. She is the only person who he will
probably ever have access to that can actually remove the block, and
she needs someone who can build up stuff covertly. She then heads off
to explore with G'kar, and he heads off to Mars to run Edgars
Industries. Both lines are complete, and any story concerning a
telepath war would have to take place OUTSIDE the realm of Babylon 5,
therefore it is not applicable to THIS story. It was nice in the main
story that the main base of rebellion was ON Babylon 5, which is why
it was important. But to have any type of telepath war centered and
taking place anywhere near B5 would be incredibly ludicrous. Thus, you
have a WINDING down and a sealing off of the plot lines and not a
"building up".
>> > for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War, and
>> > then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no
>sequels
>> > to this - Crusade is its own story.
>>
>> You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
>>Psi-War. That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from push-over
>>to deadly. And it accomplished that.
Bullshit, it was a telling of what happened to the telepath arc as a
result of the main story. This happened to merge into Lyta, then into
Garibaldi, wereupon they combined to setup the catalyst necessary to
trigger a telepath war in the near future.
>It made her deadly and then........?
And then she made a deal with Mr. G. He goes off and builds her a
fleet, she removes his block, and they then fight their battles, most
of which would not have a fig to do with Babylon 5. If however, the
telepaths did not lead into her transition from milktoast to hardened
soldier, she never would have had the cajones to propose what she did,
nor the motive.
>> > You don't bring in this tremendous weapon known as Epsilon 3's Great
>> > Machine, and then use it as a road map to First One homes only. This
>> >is my complaint.
>>
>> To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway... He
>was
>> not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to be a
>> time travel machine for Babylon 4.
>
>Yeah, but they brought in John Schuck. He *did* make the GM a bit comedic,
>and maybe that's why jms downplayed future GM stories...
What else would you suggest it be used for? It performed its task and
even a few more. Keep in mind that TGM was probably built EXPRESSLY so
that it would be in a position to be able to expand the rift and allow
our heroes to send Valen back. Anything after that is cake and in fact
it was also used as The Voice of the Resistance and as a way of
determining where the First Ones are for the big battle. I kind of
agree that SOMETHING about it should be mentioned, or it should at
least be destroyed in order to seal off that plotline. We find out
what happened to it and that is about it.
>The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
>characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt dangling,
>and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't have
>high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
>1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
Use your brain man, it is what it is there for. What does Delenn know?
John "may" have told her about them. Can he give her an exact
description to the point where she goes "ohhhhh.. THAT'S a keeper".
No. Couple this with the fact that she doesn't know what the HELL she
saw. She has been fainting left and right, is pregnant with probably
the first interspecies kid in that time, and she has no idea what
other effects it may be having on her. And plus, she saw what we saw,
when i saw that thing, i KNEW it was a keeper because i saw Londo get
it attached. But she did not and all she saw is a shimmery thing with
very little form and certainly not an uncamoflauged keeper that said
"boo!", as you would have us believe.
>2) The Psi War
Addressed above. Any type of psi war would take place outside of the
bounds of the station.
>3) The Great Machine
Also addressed above.
>That's 5 items ( when you include the 2 character stories above) right
>there off the top that I had hoped to see resolved by tomorrow night that
>probably will not get addressed.
No. You hoped to see things that are not within the bounds of THIS
story and are disappointed that you didn't get them. Well, tough. I'm
sure the characters are interesting enough that we wish we could see
their travels over the next 20 years, but life isn't that kind. We saw
the story of Babylon 5, not anything outside of that.
>Two other things I wanted to know...
>1) Why is Zack still employed?
Becuase he does his job adequately enough?
>2) Where can I get the Lochley holo-image for home study?
That would be:
Babylonian Productions Inc.
Attn: Lochley holo-image sale
P.O. Box 75632
Beverly Hills, CA 90210
(714)232-1235
As I recall, they go on sale the first of the year and are $19.95 for
the first 5 minutes of viewing, $5 a minute thereafter.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
>In article <877lwnm...@globalreach.net>,
> Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
>> "J. Keith Jackson" <jke...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>>
>> Here there be spoilers.
>>
>> > I kind of got the idea that it was indeed very unlike Lennier to do
>> > something like this. Even Delenn commented on this, and that, "Sometimes we
>> > become someone else" maybe hinting that he was not acting under his own
>> > will. Maybe Morden had a little influence on him? Anyone loyal to the
>> > Shadows would love to see Sheridan dead, or under their control, hence the
>> > keeper for Sheridan's child.
>>
>> Of course Lennier wasn't acting under his own will.
>>
>> He was acting under JMS's will.
>>
>> And it was painfully obvious enough to interfere with suspension
>> of disbelief.
>
>
>I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
>disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
>Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
>temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
>at all.
Actually, this arc has been going on ever since they first met in "The
Parliament of Dreams" and he would not meet her eyes. And plus, would
you ever imagine that it would be Delenn that losed her head when she
declared holy war on the Earthers? That turned out to be caused by the
loss of the one she was really close to. Is it any different that
Lennier might react with the same damn knee-jerk type reaction when it
has become apparent that he has lost the woman he loves to an Earther
who doesn't even have the decency to keep from knocking her up with
some mutant child?
-MJ
Michael Johnson
Ellis) wrote:
>Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>> I don't understand your complaint. We've known for MONTHS that Lennier
>>> disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
>>> Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
>>> temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
>>> at all.
>
>"James C. Ellis" <ell...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>
>> From the sounds of it it came as an unpleasant surprise to Bill Mumy.
>>And I daresay that he would be a better judge of what came naturally to
>>that character than you or I.
>>
>> (The same may certainly be said about JMS , but I have seen too much
>>that suggest that the walls between characters and author in his head
>>are not as thick as they once may have been...)
>
>Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan was not in JMS' original game plan. I
>read that Neil Gaiman added this thread when he wrote "Day of the
>Dead", and JMS was left to carry it through to completion.
Hmm.. sorry, i don't buy it. Gaiman might be completely correct in
that he thinks he was the cause of this, but something of this type
was probably allready coming down the pipe.
>I can see where Bill Mumy would feel uncomfortable. After all, the
>Rangers live for the One and die for the One. And in my opinion,
>unrequited love doesn't quite make a sufficient motivation for the
>betrayal we saw.
>
>One person posted that Lennier may have frozen because of his previous
>experience with a coolant leak.
Heck no, his reaction was the same as Delenn's to the death of Dukhat.
Given a chance, a knee-jerk reaction was made that he then regretted
shortly thereafter. Listen to Delenn's conversation to Sheridan just
after everything was over, she realizes the parallels and sympathizes
with Lennier's situation. It is the reason she spends the latter part
of the episode trying to get Sheridan to go easier on him. To a lesser
extent, this is also paralleled with Neroon's knee-jerk decision to
jump into the fire in "Moments of Transition" and save Delenn, at the
cost of his own life. Thus, It has been established that Minbari do
often act in this manner and it is part of their character, thus it
should really come as no suprise that Lennier is also not immune to
it.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
>dctr...@webtv.net (Daniel Tropea) wrote:
>> >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 The plot is OVER.
>>
>> Except that it continues in Crusades.
>
>Crusade. No 's' And according to JMS, Crusade is a different, separate
>story.
Hold up there tiger. Crusade is not a "different, seperate story". It
is a story that occurs as a result of stuff that happened in the
original story, contains characters and races that were established as
part of the main story and pretty much continues the B5 universe. But
different and seperate? Not really.
-MJ
Alan David Doane
>>>>disliked Sheridan and was uncomfortable with seeing his love, Delenn, is
>>>>Sheridan's arms instead of his own. When given the opportunity, Lennier
>>>>temporarily lost his head, and choose to kill his opponent. Not surprising
>>>>at all.
>>>
>>>Parliament of Dreams" and he would not meet her eyes. And plus, would
>>>you ever imagine that it would be Delenn that losed her head when she
>>>declared holy war on the Earthers? That turned out to be caused by the
>>>loss of the one she was really close to. Is it any different that
>>>Lennier might react with the same damn knee-jerk type reaction when it
>>>has become apparent that he has lost the woman he loves to an Earther
>>>who doesn't even have the decency to keep from knocking her up with
>>>some mutant child?
>>>
>>> -MJ
think we just wish it had been more organic in coming out of the story
and the characters. My biggest problem with the WHOLE SCENE was the
convenient coolant leak giving Lennier an excuse not to act. A less
forced scene, with Lennier's betrayal intact, would not have generated
this much controversy. I think we've all demonstrated that we'll
swallow almost anything on B5, as long as it is a tale well told. This
particular one was not.
Alan
"Now is all we have."
Delenn, "Babylon 5"
Ted from Brooklyn
Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote in article
<365baf3d...@news.connectnet.com>...
> On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:53:14 GMT, "Ted from Brooklyn"
> <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>
[snip]
I thought you were skipping the details...
That's all very nice, and succinctly put, but addresses nothing I raised.
> >> > for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War,
and
> >> > then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no
> >sequels
> >> > to this - Crusade is its own story.
> >>
> >> You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
> >>Psi-War. That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta
from push-over
> >>to deadly. And it accomplished that.
>
> Bullshit, it was a telling of what happened to the telepath arc as a
> result of the main story. This happened to merge into Lyta, then into
> Garibaldi, wereupon they combined to setup the catalyst necessary to
> trigger a telepath war in the near future.
>
And for how long have we heard about the Telepath War? If that wasn't a
major plot point, then what was it? By your rationale, if the series had
ended without showing the Shadow War, it would have been okay, since it
took place outside of B5.
> >It made her deadly and then........?
>
> And then she made a deal with Mr. G. He goes off and builds her a
> fleet, she removes his block, and they then fight their battles, most
> of which would not have a fig to do with Babylon 5. If however, the
> telepaths did not lead into her transition from milktoast to hardened
> soldier, she never would have had the cajones to propose what she did,
> nor the motive.
>
I'm sorry. I see this as a dropped character. No good way to finish her
story off, so we just say goodbye.
Use yours. My point isn't that she should have recognized it, or said
something, or that any result was necessary - my point was that if it
served no purpose to the story, then why show it. The whole point of
acting is reaction to events & being able to convey those actions
believeably. Since she doesn't mention it, she might as well have seen
Teletubbies dancing on Londo's shoulder.
> >2) The Psi War
>
> Addressed above. Any type of psi war would take place outside of the
> bounds of the station.
>
So did the Shadow War. So did the Civil War. So did the Narn-Cenaturi
conflict.
> >3) The Great Machine
>
> Also addressed above.
>
At least we agree that something more should have been done with it.
> >That's 5 items ( when you include the 2 character stories above) right
> >there off the top that I had hoped to see resolved by tomorrow night
that
> >probably will not get addressed.
>
> No. You hoped to see things that are not within the bounds of THIS
> story and are disappointed that you didn't get them. Well, tough. I'm
> sure the characters are interesting enough that we wish we could see
> their travels over the next 20 years, but life isn't that kind. We saw
> the story of Babylon 5, not anything outside of that.
>
By my count, we saw plenty outside of the station.
> >Two other things I wanted to know...
> >1) Why is Zack still employed?
>
> Becuase he does his job adequately enough?
>
Are you kidding? He's the original Rebel without a clue.
The Alliance and Centauri each sustain heavy battle damage. Many
casualties. Cenaturi removes itself from the Alliance.
Zack walks in and asks, "Why all the long faces?"
?????????????????????????????????????????
> >2) Where can I get the Lochley holo-image for home study?
>
> That would be:
>
> Babylonian Productions Inc.
> Attn: Lochley holo-image sale
> P.O. Box 75632
> Beverly Hills, CA 90210
> (714)232-1235
>
> As I recall, they go on sale the first of the year and are $19.95 for
> the first 5 minutes of viewing, $5 a minute thereafter.
>
> -MJ
>
>
Thank you!!!
--
- John Tedesco
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
>
> > that he do nothing. At that time Delenn is ranger one, apparently for
> > the moment it took to turn and leave, he forgot his duty to his comrade.
> > Maybe his mind did the math and accepted the death of a comrade if it
> > was for a greater good, that of correcting Delenn's hideous, in his
> > mind, mistake.
> >
> It felt forced, as if it had to be thrown in at the last moment. There
> were other ways for him to betray the Anla'Shok -
Translation: "JMS didn't write the story the way I wanted him to!"
>we've seen as much in his
> dealings with Montoya - Lennier was one who would sacrifice his life and
> standing to defend others. He could have disgraced himself by following
> what he believed to be right, and have it have drastic consequences.
Um... that's what he did in Objects... He did what he believed was right: Fix
a marriage that never should have happened. And yes, it had drastic
consequences.
Frankly, I can't believe some of you nor Bill Mumy saw this coming. I knew
months ago that Lennier MIGHT attack Sheridan in some way. His jealousy was
building more and more.
Troy
Troy_...@hotmail.com
>
>
> barely touched on the major themes of GWtW, but instead followed new
> characters in the GWtW universe...
>
> Hey wait a minute, that sounds like Crusade!
Perhaps... Why don't we just wait and see before we condemn it?
> Apparently you didn't read mine. GWtW's story was over. What's being done
> with the Psi-War is analogous to having Scarlett & Rhett's daughter in a
> coma ath the end of GWtW.
No... it's more like saying that Rhett's service will lead him to fight in the
Spanish-American War only 30 years away. (as a theoretical example)
Anyway, nowhere in season 5 is there ANY mention of a Psi-War. So, where do
you get the idea that there is one?
Troy_...@hotmail.com
"Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Babylon 5 is the story of the crew of Babylon 5 who fought off the
> Shadows,
> > and now that the crew have left Babylon 5 "that story is finished."
> >
>
> If there wasn't tremendous build-up of several plot lines, I would agree.
Tremendous build-up of what plotlines?
> > You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
> Psi-War.
> > That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from push-over
> to
> > deadly. And it accomplished that.
> >
> >
>
> It made her deadly and then........?
...and then she left on her journey. End of her Babylon 5 story. Lyta's
leaving at the end of B5 is no different than Huckleberry Finn who "lit out
for the west territories..." at the end of Mark Twain's novel.
> > To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway... He
> was
> > not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to be
a
> > time travel machine for Babylon 4.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, but they brought in John Schuck. He *did* make the GM a bit comedic,
> and maybe that's why jms downplayed future GM stories...
John Schuck (Drall2) IS the guy who went off to Broadway. He was unavailable.
> The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
> characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt dangling,
> and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't have
> high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
> 1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
> 2) The Psi War
> 3) The Great Machine
First off, how do you know there's a Psi War? There's no mention of one in
ANY season 5 episode. (note: Lyta is not in SIL)
Second, the Great Machine fulfilled its purpose as a time machine. Now it
will just sit there for several thousand years until it's needed again.
Finally, I'm fairly certain that we'll learn what became of David and his
keeper. Ditto Lennier and his relationship to J&D.
Troy_...@hotmail.com
Troy wrote:
> >> You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
> >>Psi-War. That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from
push-over
> >>to deadly. And it accomplished that.
>
> Bullshit, it was a telling of what happened to the telepath arc as a
> result of the main story. This happened to merge into Lyta, then into
> Garibaldi, wereupon they combined to setup the catalyst necessary to
> trigger a telepath war in the near future.
Michael... Lyta IS an important part of the arc whether you realize it or not.
My words above almost exactly echo JMS' own words on the subject... i.e. That
the Byron romance is a personal journey for Lyta to move from push-over to
deadly force.
> >2) The Psi War
>
> Addressed above. Any type of psi war would take place outside of the
> bounds of the station.
Also, the casual viewer doesn't know ANYTHING about a Psi War. There's no
mention of an impending war in any of season 5.
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73hb0d$1al$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > There really wasn't much more to tell, which is why the sequel stunk.
It
> > barely touched on the major themes of GWtW, but instead followed new
> > characters in the GWtW universe...
> >
> > Hey wait a minute, that sounds like Crusade!
>
> Perhaps... Why don't we just wait and see before we condemn it?
>
>
Wrong impression. I never meant to imply anything about the quality of
Crusade.
My point was simply that Scarlett (yes, Dan, 2 t's) was written as a sequel
to a book that didn't need it, by a different author than the original.
This cannot be said about Crusade.
>
>
>
> > Apparently you didn't read mine. GWtW's story was over. What's being
done
> > with the Psi-War is analogous to having Scarlett & Rhett's daughter in
a
> > coma ath the end of GWtW.
>
> No... it's more like saying that Rhett's service will lead him to fight
in the
> Spanish-American War only 30 years away. (as a theoretical example)
>
?
> Anyway, nowhere in season 5 is there ANY mention of a Psi-War. So, where
do
> you get the idea that there is one?
>
From seasons 1-4, and the Lurker's Guide.
--
- John Tedesco
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73hbjj$1sb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01be17cb$4b57d580$584737a6@00a024e8e54a>,
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
> > > Babylon 5 is the story of the crew of Babylon 5 who fought off the
> > Shadows,
> > > and now that the crew have left Babylon 5 "that story is finished."
> > >
> >
> > If there wasn't tremendous build-up of several plot lines, I would
agree.
>
> Tremendous build-up of what plotlines?
>
>
The Telepath War, for one. The rest are listed conveniently for your
reading pleasure in my previous posts.
>
>
>
>
> > > You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
> > Psi-War.
> > > That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta from
push-over
> > to
> > > deadly. And it accomplished that.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It made her deadly and then........?
>
> ...and then she left on her journey. End of her Babylon 5 story. Lyta's
> leaving at the end of B5 is no different than Huckleberry Finn who "lit
out
> for the west territories..." at the end of Mark Twain's novel.
>
>
Except Huck wasn't supposed to instrumental in a war...
>
>
>
> > > To be fair to JMS, the actor who played Drall went off to Broadway...
He
> > was
> > > not available. AND, the Great Machine did serve its main purpose: to
be
> a
> > > time travel machine for Babylon 4.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, but they brought in John Schuck. He *did* make the GM a bit
comedic,
> > and maybe that's why jms downplayed future GM stories...
>
> John Schuck (Drall2) IS the guy who went off to Broadway. He was
unavailable.
>
>
>
My apologies. I thought you were referring to the original Draal.
>
>
> > The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
> > characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt
dangling,
> > and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't
have
> > high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
> > 1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
> > 2) The Psi War
> > 3) The Great Machine
>
> First off, how do you know there's a Psi War? There's no mention of one
in
> ANY season 5 episode. (note: Lyta is not in SIL)
>
Lurker's Guide. Valuable resource. The theatrical movie is rumored to
detail the Telepath War. Which doesn't jibe with JMS' comments on the same
resource, under SiL, that all questions will be answered at the end of S5,
and this would not become a franchise.
Don't get me wrong - if this series lives long and prospers (sorry,
couldn't help it), I'd be thrilled. But the B5 story was supposed to wrap
nicely after OaR, with SiL as an epilogue 19 years later.
> Second, the Great Machine fulfilled its purpose as a time machine. Now
it
> will just sit there for several thousand years until it's needed again.
>
> Finally, I'm fairly certain that we'll learn what became of David and his
> keeper. Ditto Lennier and his relationship to J&D.
>
The line we'va ll heard, "David is safe," bears out your first assumption,
But I'm not so sure about the second.
Boo Radley
: My words above almost exactly echo JMS' own words on the subject... i.e. That
Now *there's* a dramatic change of pace for Heagy.
Greg
Ted from Brooklyn
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<73hbjj$1sb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01be17cb$4b57d580$584737a6@00a024e8e54a>,
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
[snip]
> First off, how do you know there's a Psi War? There's no mention of one
in
> ANY season 5 episode. (note: Lyta is not in SIL)
>
There IS mention in season 4's "Deconstruction..." One of the panelists in
the future opines that Sheridan's decision to refuge telepaths brought
about the Telepath War.
Eric DeFonso
>
>Also, the casual viewer doesn't know ANYTHING about a Psi War. There's no
>mention of an impending war in any of season 5.
Huh? How about the very first ep of S5, No Compromises? Here's an excerpt
from the synopsis on Lurker's Guide about that ep:
"The President receives Byron in his office. Lochley has refused the
telepaths' request, but Sheridan declares it his jurisdiction and
grants them rights to start a colony. Franklin is a little perplexed, but
Sheridan argues that when the telepath war begins, it would do
them some good to have some telepathic allies on board. "
*when the telepath war begins*
Eric D
Plain and Simple Cronan
>> It felt forced, as if it had to be thrown in at the last moment. There
>> were other ways for him to betray the Anla'Shok -
>
>Translation: "JMS didn't write the story the way I wanted him to!"
"Well." That's all I ask. That he write it so that it makes sense. He can
(and will) develop the plot, characters and the universe in which they reside
any way he sees fit but, and let's be clear on this, it wasn't a *good
story*. That's our qualm. Not that it developed in a way different than we
would have but that it developed *stupidly*. That, super metatroll, is what
this is about.
>Frankly, I can't believe some of you nor Bill Mumy saw this coming. I knew
>months ago that Lennier MIGHT attack Sheridan in some way. His jealousy was
>building more and more.
Errr... yeah.
P&SC
...SiL all the way!
Aubrey W. Adkins
and was framed set up the type of situation Lennier might use as he did
in OaR.
Aubrey
Troy_...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> "Ted from Brooklyn" <te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in article
> > > that he do nothing. At that time Delenn is ranger one, apparently for
> > > the moment it took to turn and leave, he forgot his duty to his comrade.
> > > Maybe his mind did the math and accepted the death of a comrade if it
> > > was for a greater good, that of correcting Delenn's hideous, in his
> > > mind, mistake.
> > >
> > It felt forced, as if it had to be thrown in at the last moment. There
> > were other ways for him to betray the Anla'Shok -
>
> Translation: "JMS didn't write the story the way I wanted him to!"
>
> >we've seen as much in his
> > dealings with Montoya - Lennier was one who would sacrifice his life and
> > standing to defend others. He could have disgraced himself by following
> > what he believed to be right, and have it have drastic consequences.
>
> Um... that's what he did in Objects... He did what he believed was right: Fix
> a marriage that never should have happened. And yes, it had drastic
> consequences.
>
> Frankly, I can't believe some of you nor Bill Mumy saw this coming. I knew
> months ago that Lennier MIGHT attack Sheridan in some way. His jealousy was
> building more and more.
>
WWS
Sergey Bukhman wrote:
>
> TMB wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:32:58 -0600, Sergey Bukhman
> > <ser...@netropolis.net> wrote:
> >
> > >So was LoTR franchise building?
> >
> > It's been argued that way, but in the context of B5 and Trek, we're
> > usually talking about multiple spin-offs, huge support for
> > related merchandising lines, and basically continuing the production
> > for the sole purpose of generating increasing profits. As with trek,
> > the problem comes from cranking out episode after episode to meet
> > quota, sacrificing quality for quantity.
> >
> > This as opposed to no longer simply to see a life long dream come into
> > being.
>
> So you are saying that JMS is in it for the money? That contradicts
> everything I know about him. And I have no reason to believe that he has
> spent the last 5 years lying to us.
>
No, he held true for the first 4, an amazing accomplishment.
He only blew everything off for the last year.
--
<*>
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
WWS
"BabyKosh (D Misener)" wrote:
>
> Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
> <01be17f0$f583d480$164b37a6@00a024e8e54a>...
> >
> >David Misener <dmis...@lords.com> wrote in article
...
> >> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a GPS
> >for
> >> >first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
> >>
> >> Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
> >>
> >So we take this huge planet, with this unbelievably awesome machine on it,
> >and use it like a tire jack. Not very efficient.
>
> It was built for a specific purpose. Remember Draal can see into the
> future, so he will know if he is needed.
>
So how come the great Draal almost let the Thirdspace Aliens destroy the
Universe? Oh, that's right, he knew Sheridan would win.
--
<*>
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
Maybe he just had a copy of the script.
BabyKosh (D Misener)
WWS wrote in message <365CC918...@tyler.net>...
>
>
>"BabyKosh (D Misener)" wrote:
>>
>> Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
>> <01be17f0$f583d480$164b37a6@00a024e8e54a>...
>> >
>> >David Misener <dmis...@lords.com> wrote in article
>...
>> >> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more than a
GPS
>> >for
>> >> >first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
>> >>
>> >> Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
>> >>
>> >So we take this huge planet, with this unbelievably awesome machine on
it,
>> >and use it like a tire jack. Not very efficient.
>>
>> It was built for a specific purpose. Remember Draal can see into the
>> future, so he will know if he is needed.
>>
>So how come the great Draal almost let the Thirdspace Aliens destroy the
>Universe? Oh, that's right, he knew Sheridan would win.
BabyKosh
Aubrey W. Adkins
coolant in it that was set do expel the coolant and kill all aboard the
ship. I see a tremendous difference between a bomb and an accident.
aubrey
WWS
"BabyKosh (D Misener)" wrote:
>
> WWS wrote in message <365CC918...@tyler.net>...
> >
> >
> >"BabyKosh (D Misener)" wrote:
> >>
> >> Ted from Brooklyn wrote in message
> >> >
> >> >David Misener <dmis...@lords.com> wrote in article
> >...
> >> >> >1) The Great Machine on Epsilon 3. Turned into nothing more
> >> >> > than a GPS for first ones... What a build up, what a let down.
> >> >>
> >> >> Remember it was used to keep the time rift open until War Without End
> >> >>
> >> >So we take this huge planet, with this unbelievably awesome machine on
> > > it, and use it like a tire jack. Not very efficient.
> >>
> >> It was built for a specific purpose. Remember Draal can see into the
> >> future, so he will know if he is needed.
> >>
> >So how come the great Draal almost let the Thirdspace Aliens destroy the
> >Universe? Oh, that's right, he knew Sheridan would win.
> That's the only logical explination I can come up with for Thirdspace.
>
Silly me. The logical explanation I came up with is that the writing
was absolute Crap.
But now we've seen SiL, Right? No plotholes, Right?? So tell me:
What about David?
What happens to Lennier?
What happens to Lyta?
How does G'kar get back to Centauri Prime just to die?
Why was there fighting and fire on Centauri prime 17 years in
the future? That couldn't have just been a "looks way kewl f/x
shot, whoops! Doesn't fit into the script, let's ignore it and
hope no one notices kind of thing" could it?
How were Sheridan and Delenn, Lord and Mistress of the Galaxy,
captured?
Did I say What about David?
How come all the Drakh are gone and Vir is just fine?
Does it make sense to demolish a station that is sitting out of the
way over some dead planet? This isn't San Francisco harbor, you know.
What about the goblet?
What about David?
Was there ever a telepath war?
How come Draal didn't even say goodbye?
--
<*>
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
All Good Things was Better.
Michael Johnson
wrote:
>I don't think we're unhappy that Lennier turned against Sheridan, I
>think we just wish it had been more organic in coming out of the story
>and the characters. My biggest problem with the WHOLE SCENE was the
>convenient coolant leak giving Lennier an excuse not to act. A less
>forced scene, with Lennier's betrayal intact, would not have generated
>this much controversy. I think we've all demonstrated that we'll
>swallow almost anything on B5, as long as it is a tale well told. This
>particular one was not.
Hmm, ok.. i'll buy that. The coolant leak HAS been used before and
probably shouldn't have been used again.
-MJ
RWWells
>mention of an impending war in any of season 5.
Actually, Sheridan mentioned a looming Telepath War several times during the
fifth season, including the first episode "No Compromises." In that one,
Sheridan proclaims the telepath colony as being useful allies in the war.
Compare the buildup of the concept of a war betweeen telepaths and mundanes
with the first two seasons references to the Centauri political system. Would
Babylon 5 have been as interesting a viewing experience had the Centauri
dynastic struggle not taken place on screen? (Remember much of that occurred
away from B5.)
While it is true that the phrase PsiWar was never used, that is a slender
semantical distinction to cover a flaw. It is however truly remarkable how much
you claim to have liked the fifth season considering how little attention you
paid to it.
Richard Wells
Michael Johnson
<te...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
Actually, i did.
>That's all very nice, and succinctly put, but addresses nothing I raised.
Which is perhaps why the subject of the thread changed?
>> >> > for half a season (or several chapters) on a story about a Psi-War,
>and
>> >> > then drop it completely. Remember - according to jms, there are no
>> >sequels
>> >> > to this - Crusade is its own story.
>> >>
>> >> You mis-understand the point of the Byron Arc. That is NOT about the
>> >>Psi-War. That is about LYTA. The point of that arc is to move Lyta
>from push-over
>> >>to deadly. And it accomplished that.
>>
>> Bullshit, it was a telling of what happened to the telepath arc as a
>> result of the main story. This happened to merge into Lyta, then into
>> Garibaldi, wereupon they combined to setup the catalyst necessary to
>> trigger a telepath war in the near future.
>>
>And for how long have we heard about the Telepath War? If that wasn't a
>major plot point, then what was it? By your rationale, if the series had
>ended without showing the Shadow War, it would have been okay, since it
>took place outside of B5.
The Shadow War was always dealt from a B5 viewpoint because the only
place the rebellion could grow was ON B5. After all, Earth was
usurped, Narn and Centauri were going at each other, and the only
place left for the forces to grow was through Babylon 5. Therefore, it
was extremely important to the story and it is why the series was
built around it. A telepathic war is another beast entirely. Such a
thing would have little or nothing to do with an out of the way space
station and would go a long way to validating the "Enterprise effect"
effect in the B5 universe. That effect where anything important that
happens always is centered in the vacinity of the station.
>> >It made her deadly and then........?
>>
>> And then she made a deal with Mr. G. He goes off and builds her a
>> fleet, she removes his block, and they then fight their battles, most
>> of which would not have a fig to do with Babylon 5. If however, the
>> telepaths did not lead into her transition from milktoast to hardened
>> soldier, she never would have had the cajones to propose what she did,
>> nor the motive.
>>
>I'm sorry. I see this as a dropped character. No good way to finish her
>story off, so we just say goodbye.
Her story WAS finished off, she was used as an offensive weapon to
help win the war and ended up being the one to be able to garner the
forces through the use of Garibaldi to trigger a telepath war. That is
her story as it pertains to her actions on Babylon 5. Beyond that...
that is another story.
>> >The reference was to the unresolved plot lines, not necessarily the
>> >characters. But even with them, two sping to mind as being lefyt
>dangling,
>> >and here's where tomorrow's episode can prove me wrong, though I don't
>have
>> >high hopes - Lennier & Lyta. The plot lines were
>>
>> >1) Delenn seeing the image of the Keeper & then ?
>>
>> Use your brain man, it is what it is there for. What does Delenn know?
>> John "may" have told her about them. Can he give her an exact
>> description to the point where she goes "ohhhhh.. THAT'S a keeper".
>> No. Couple this with the fact that she doesn't know what the HELL she
>> saw. She has been fainting left and right, is pregnant with probably
>> the first interspecies kid in that time, and she has no idea what
>> other effects it may be having on her. And plus, she saw what we saw,
>> when i saw that thing, i KNEW it was a keeper because i saw Londo get
>> it attached. But she did not and all she saw is a shimmery thing with
>> very little form and certainly not an uncamoflauged keeper that said
>> "boo!", as you would have us believe.
>>
>Use yours. My point isn't that she should have recognized it,
Really, name one point where she has ever seen a keeper in the series.
Now name a reason why she should recognize a shimmery thing with no
form as a keeper. After all, when she ran into Morden she could tell
that he was surrounded by darkness. Did she, however, jump to the
conclusion that these WERE shadows, and recognize them as such on
seeing this? Didn't think so.
>or said something, or that any result was necessary - my point was that if it
>served no purpose to the story, then why show it.
I agree that she probably should have said at least something. I also
think that she could have also discounted it as sideeffects of a
pregnancy that has allready had noticeable effects on her.
>Since she doesn't mention it, she might as well have seen Teletubbies
>dancing on Londo's shoulder.
In her condition, that probably wouldn't be considered unusual.
>> >2) The Psi War
>>
>> Addressed above. Any type of psi war would take place outside of the
>> bounds of the station.
>
>So did the Shadow War. So did the Civil War. So did the Narn-Cenaturi
>conflict.
No. The Shadow War i covered, the main base FOR the resistance end of
the Civil War was Babylon 5. How you can say B5 was not an immediate
necessary to tell that story is beyond me. The Narn-Centauri conflict
tied into B5 because the ambassadors from there tended to try to
generate support for their respective sides on the station. How do you
take a telepath war and have it tie in and be based on a simple space
station. If anything, the war would cover multiple places and
certainly take place nowhere we've probably seen before.
>> >That's 5 items ( when you include the 2 character stories above) right
>> >there off the top that I had hoped to see resolved by tomorrow night
>that
>> >probably will not get addressed.
>>
>> No. You hoped to see things that are not within the bounds of THIS
>> story and are disappointed that you didn't get them. Well, tough. I'm
>> sure the characters are interesting enough that we wish we could see
>> their travels over the next 20 years, but life isn't that kind. We saw
>> the story of Babylon 5, not anything outside of that.
>
>By my count, we saw plenty outside of the station.
Nothing that didn't tie into B5 in some direct way.
>> >2) Where can I get the Lochley holo-image for home study?
>>
>> That would be:
>>
>> Babylonian Productions Inc.
>> Attn: Lochley holo-image sale
>> P.O. Box 75632
>> Beverly Hills, CA 90210
>> (714)232-1235
>>
>> As I recall, they go on sale the first of the year and are $19.95 for
>> the first 5 minutes of viewing, $5 a minute thereafter.
>>
>> -MJ
>>
>>
>Thank you!!!
No problem. :>
-MJ
TMB
>> So you are saying that JMS is in it for the money? That contradicts
>> everything I know about him. And I have no reason to believe that he has
>> spent the last 5 years lying to us.
>>
>No, he held true for the first 4, an amazing accomplishment.
>He only blew everything off for the last year.
I think that saying JMS sold out in the end for money is going too
far...more like (IMHO), he made concessions to get the last season
out.
It's the increasing control of the executives that has had an
impact...everything from the cancel/not cancelled upraors at the end
of every season, to the jerking around of B5's airings by TNT.
The executives
TMB
Figure out where I'm not to Email me
TMB
<ser...@netropolis.net> wrote:
>So you are saying that JMS is in it for the money? That contradicts
>everything I know about him. And I have no reason to believe that he has
>spent the last 5 years lying to us.
>
You asked if LOTR was a franchise - not what I thought about JMS.
I explained why I did not think LOTR is a franchise.
When you draw a conclusion to an answer of mine, please keep in mind
the question you asked to begin with.